Is the NHL Lacking in the Number of Elite Goalies Compared to Past Eras?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- I have seen this topic discussed and figured it would make for a good video.
Join this channel to get access to perks:
/ @thehockeyguy
Join us on our discord to chat hockey, talk with others during the game, share pet pictures, and more.
/ discord
Order jerseys from Ben H Sports while saving 10% off the listed eBay prices by sending him an email regarding jerseys you spot in his listings. ben.hoogenband@yahoo.ca Just tell him Shannon sent you.
Support The Hockey Guy via Patreon / thehockeyguy
/ youtubehockeyguy
Instagram: thgshannon and thg_cats
Spoutible: spoutible.com/...
TheHockeyGuy.yt@gmail.com
Contact me via snail mail at:
The Hockey Guy
PO Box 15038 Seven Oaks PO
Abbotsford, BC
V2S 8P1
In the USA:
Shannon Skanes
1125 Fir Avenue
Suite 119
Blaine, WA 98230
FUN FACT- The longtime Montreal Canadians team photographer who took all those great shots of Roy in action...was none other than Mr. Brodeur...the legend Marty Brodeur's father!
Pretty common knowledge bud
He's also the one who took the iconic picture of Hendersons "the goal" during the ussr series. I know this because I have it hanging on my wall.
A lot of long term, top goaltenders retired recently - Lundqvist, Price, Miller, Crawford, Rask, Rinne, Luongo, Fleury. All of these names were THE GUY on their team, known by all fans - even if that team was a rival of your favorite team. So to a casual viewer you might watch and not recognize the goaltender and think they're just some nobody backup, but the talent is absolutely there, Sorokin, Shersterkin, Vasilevekiy, are all under 30 and Saros, Swayman, Oettinger, Ingram and Hill are all 24-28 and the top goalie prospects of Wolf, Levi, Wallstedt, Askarov, Cossa, Schmid, Dostal, Hofer, Silovs, Commesso and Gajan are all developing amazing. The future of hockey is in good hands in these guys.
exactly, is was tsn or espn, they think one of those 8 retired goalies would still be better then any of the actives you listed simply because theyre more familiar of a name to them, but theyre completely wrong, these goalies are much better and theres a number of them still coming.
Fleury...
@@guybunchofnumbers123based on his performances this season id much rather just consider him retired💀
Fleury didn't retire.....yet ?
Well said.
Hasek is easily the best goalie of all time. What he did in the 90s with Buffalo was unreal. Dumpster fire of a team, and he dragged them to the playoffs.
And don't forget about the 1998 Olimpics.
Hasek and Dryden, rock and roll!
@@tiagomaia1365 I did forget lol.
Unreal goaltender
I think stats don't tell the full story with things like the quality of goalies, as a lot of things that goalies have no control over can affect that, such as the overall skill level of the players, rule or policy changes that help offense and so on. However, one thing that, while subjective, tells the story a lot more accurately is the quality of goals and how the goals are being scored. The 80s were notorious for abysmal goaltending overall, particularly based on what common knowledge rated a goal as a "good goal" vs "a weak goal that the goalie should have had."
In the 80s, you'd see a plethora of perimeter shots beating goalies outright and being called highlight reel goals. In the 90s and 2000s, those same shots were being called "soft goals." The expectation of what a goalie should save vs what they should not save had become much more strict.
Another factor to look at his the total number of elite goalies who can shut any team down regularly. Any goalie can have a hot night, and shut an elite team down. Heck even Hardy Astrom was capable of having a hot game and shutting down the famous 80s Oilers lineup once in a while. I'm talking REGULARLY steal a game by a goalie shutting down the offense with big save after big save. Even though the total number of goalies in the league was pretty close between the 70s, 80s and 90s, the number of goalies you'd bring up when talking Elite Goalies was longer in the 70s, became a LOT shorter in the 80s, and then ballooned in the 90s when it seemed like 900+ sv% goalies were as much a dime a dozen as 50 goal/100 point scorers were in the 80s.
Thank you for saying fewer, not less.
What?! Is Curtis Joseph not in the HoF? Madness!
The perception is partly due to some of the higher profile teams without great goaltending and sometimes below average goaltending combined with below average defence. A lot of the past generations of great goalies had better defencemen around them, teams played the trap, more clutching and grabbing allowed, crackdown on goalie equipment, and no composite sticks.
Dude have you seen how players shoot the puck now? Even just last few years the improvement has been noticable, the accuracy and quickness with which players shoot pucks is unreal.
the sticks.
I don't think you have done a Glenn Resch career video. May be one could be done. 👍
I've ragged on Carolina's goaltending for the better part of this season - Antti Raanta in particular - and some commenters think that I'm being unfair, so I'm gonna put some comp numbers up here. The Canes are still above .500 (luckily) but lost to Nashville last night - with guess who in net? Yep. Raanta. At home. To a team they should have beaten. So here come the numbers. Raanta SV% = .860, GA/G = 3.4, W/L = 6-5-0. Really? This was supposed to be a Cup contending team. Contrast this with Mackenzie Blackwood of the Sharks. (Don't look now! They're 6-2-2 in their last 10!) SV% = .900, GA/G = 3.67, W/L = 4-11-2. Yeah, he has a losing record and a high goals against, but he plays for the Sharks! The fact that he manages to carry a .900 save percentage in San Jose is nothing short of miraculous, when most goalies would have PTSD getting mortar-fired every night. And it's not like I'm picking on a kid in Raanta. He's 34. There's no way he should be playing as sloppy as he does. Andersen is the same age, and I've seen him play sloppy too, but his abbreviated numbers at least are substantially better with an .894 and 2.87. Pyotr Kochetkov? .890 and 2.78 with a 6-6-1 record. Big difference? He's 24. He's still learning. The Canes play spirited when Kochetkov is in net, and they undergo a material change when Raanta plays, and it's not good...Shannon, I don't think Canada has a goalie deficit... 😃...Aside from the aforementioned Mackenzie Blackwood, I will offer you some even more amazing numbers. Those being of one Connor Ingram of the Arizona Coyotes. SV% = .921 (should've been on the board). GA/G = 2.56 (he'll keep any team competitive), and a W/L of 11-6-0...Impressed? I sure as hell am!... 🤣...And he's keeping the Kachina Dogs in the hunt. He's 26, by the way...The Canadian Nationals' future in net looks pretty good to me...As for Raanta, I'm not hating on the man, but he needs to be moved. Maybe he gets better, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's depressed playing in Raleigh. I know I would be. I wish him the best, but Carolina has to stanch the bleeding, and fast...
Raanta has to go! Bleeding definitely has to be stopped. I love Raanta but it feels like it’s over for him. Shame given the way he played last year. Don Waddell needs to tape his phone to his head and make something happen. No way we should have lost tonight with even decent goaltending.
Modern day hockey is more skilled in every way, including the goalies. Goalie technique is way better than it was 20 and more years ago.
The Oiler goalies cant even stop beachballs
What a time to be alive as a Flyers fan. We have a surplus of good goalies. 😂
I guess it's not about lack of elite talent, it's rising of the average level. Plus, yes, scoring is up.
Other than against Carolina last night, throw Detroit on too many goalies and need a goalie.
Berggren, Husso and maybe a draft pick for Gibbson? 🤤
I think it's a matter of the offensive talent that NHL teams have is far superior than in the past
Isn't that another way of saying this day's defence sucks?
It feels weird having all the elite Tenders be from across the pond!
i grew up watching Tretiak so it's not weird to me.
Hasek's Vezina trophy case is unreal
Especially considering he lost some of his prime proving himself in Chicago. He's Roy's age and if not for the iron curtain could play NHL as soon as Roy was.
@@laughingbeast4481 nailed it
Should Pekka Rinne be in HHOF?
Nope
Ask the Blackhawks-I bet they would say yes. Ugh.
"Anaheim Tremendous Ducks"
"You might have a goaltender that puts up great regular season numbers and in the playoffs not so much."
Would Dan Cloutier please take a bow.
Not according to McDavid fans, who insist he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and that goalies sucked in the eighties and nineties when a lot of goals were being scored, and the players who scored them suck by today's standard. But when you point out how bad the oiler's own goaltending is, suddenly they don't have much to say.
i see your entire personality is just hating mcdavid and the oilers😂
@@NRTHKR No, I think he's really good....and he obviously is... I can't dispute that, it would be silly to. But what I said needed to be said because it's the truth. Thanks for your reply and have a great day!
Shesterkin and fleury are both the most overrated goalies I’ve ever seen.
#3 all time in wins.
Cam Talbot is fucking terrible lol
Forwards are faster, stronger, and there are more talented players now than ever before. There's also an epidemic of "offensive defensemen". Too many defensemen are leaving goalies out to dry in favor of jumping into the rush. This is why the Norris has turned into nothing more than a points race.
Add in the flex of their sticks - which basically creates a slingshot-like effect to make an already lethal shot even harder.
Excellent point, and there are way too many turnovers on defensive ice as well from defensemen trying to push the puck...
The Norris, at least since I started watching hockey in the late 80s, has just about been a points race.
As a goalie myself I can turn this into a two hour conversations easily and very happily. I love reading and studying goalies. But I'll leave it at two points:
--The amount of saves a goalie has to make these last few years is notably higher than it was five years ago, and much higher than it was ten years ago. Goalies are making about 29 saves a game right now, where as goalies only needed to make 24 saves ten years ago.
--Every goalie in the AHL and NHL has the skill to have a great game in the NHL, but being a goalie is extremely dependent on staying mentally strong throughout the game and the season, and it's become much harder to do that when the shots against per game has risen.
Yeah it’s super demanding on goalies the way the NHL is these days, tandems for the most part make the most sense now
I see it differently. Note: I have played goalie for 30 years(so I have been through the 3 generations of equipment changes/technique). The modern butterfly technique aka VH/Reverse VH technique is overused by a lot of goalies(all levels of goaltending). Collegiate, Juniors, Semi-Pro and Pro, all goaltenders are taught to use the modern butterfly technique by repetition(both in individual drills and with shooters). Frankly I see the mental aspect of goaltending deteriorating a bit. Goaltending IQ is becoming less evident. Simply, too many goalies are becoming dumb! Before you or anybody else flame me, I mean that goalies are becoming too predictable being programmed humans executing robotic movements. Goalies are dropping into the butterfly even before the shooter releases the puck off their stick blade!
Such greats as Hasek, Brodeur and Roy were always a challenge to play against because they never gave the shooter the same look, yet they would still find a way to stop the same shots thrown their way. Roy gave you certain looks and took them away. Brodeur was against becoming a pure butterfly goalie and stayed more true to be a standup/hybrid goalie. Hasek was so unorthodox, acrobatic but precise with his angles and agility. These 3 had goalie IQ's off the charts! They could out think the shooters. Others who were great were Quick/Lundqvist/Rinne and later on Vasilevskiy/Saros/Shesterkin.
Now don't get me wrong about the VH/Reverse VH technique. It has it's benefits moving quickly post2post, stopping the backdoor play and odd man breaks(2on1's and 3on2's). All possible because of how square and flat goalie leg pads are. Plus the technology in goalie skates to be so precise in stop/starts and pushes. Goalies don't need to be the best skater on the team anymore as the equipment can do that for you once you master the butterfly reps of movement.
As you said, you could analyze and talk for hours about goaltending. For me, I think too many goalies ignore the past of how the art of goaltending started. Skating skills, Goalie IQ(reads and understanding the shooters and their tendencies). Take away the squareness the newer equipment has and put the same goalies in still light weight but older designed equipment from generations past, they will struggle.
@isaacwest276 Love your avatar picture of Darth Nihilus. KotOR 2 is a fantastic game!
No kidding!... 😃...I saw one game the other night (forget who it was) where one of the teams had like 46 shots on goal! I felt bad for that goalie...
More shots doesn't mean better shots.
I remember back in the late 80s / early 90s, there were a handful of "elite" goalies, a few awful ones and the big crop of average ones in between. At that time, if you had a save percentage over .900, you were considered pretty darn good. Now if you have one below .900, they talk about you as being a bit weak.
I think the bulk of goalies are better today but it often doesn't seem that way because the space between the top and the bottom is narrower than it was. The average quality of all goalies has risen but there are fewer who really stand out as a result.
That is exactly what I think about this.
Yes, players have gotten much better at scoring that the speed and demand on the body are almost impossible to keep up with. You can't expect a goalie to stretch to cover all the net 100% of the time and react to 100mph shots with 5 bodies blocking your vision. Also doesn't help that being a goalie is the most expensive position by far. I saw this growing up playing goalie that alot of kids had more talent then me but their families couldn't afford to have their kid play goalie.
As the father of a high school goaltender in Canada I can 100% attest to the lack of quality development programs. If you’re not paying hand over fist for a decent privately run program for a couple of weeks (if you’re lucky enough to get into one) then you get nothing/very little in the minor hockey system. If there’s a tangible example of how elitist hockey has become in Canada it’s at the goaltending position. That’s why we have so few elite Canadian goalies at eye NHL level now…and it sucks.
Hart been consistent on a flyers team that's supposes to be in a rebuild is has a record of 9-6-1 1so for .919% and mainly the reason why we are third In our division I can say that he has been playing like a top 10 goalie
Definitely agree Curtis Joseph should be in the Hall of Fame.
I kinda hate how the game is all pushed towards offense. I love goals don't get me wrong. But I love a good low scoring goalie battle just as much. Always wonder how many wins Hasek would've had if he came over earlier and missed a fair bit of time with injuries. Cujo should be in the HOF just for his masks alone haha.
Gibsons contract is the biggest obstacle. He is probably worth it, but amount of possible contenders-in-need who can allow themselves to pick him without damaging the current setup is very limited
Would do anything for him to come to Detroit. The team already has a ridiculous amount of offense to trade, not to mention a 3rd goalie and plenty of grade A prospects coming up. Would love to see Stevie make it happen. Detroit could have a real run with him in the playoffs.
I would like to see Gibby in the playoffs
I think one thing that's for sure is that they get way too much blame too easily. Look no further than Ottawa the past 4 years
I say when hasaek retired as when we saw the best goaltending. Like late 90s to lates 10s...those 20 years...like when hank has coming down was kinsa the end...Even Rask or a Giegure their were really good goalies back then. Ironic enough we saw philly in the finlas with like 2 ahl goalies lol... the parady in this league is priceless. Quick was the best goalie at one point... dont forget about ben bishop...we didnt even mention oteenenger so maybe this new breed csn prove that their better then crosby/Lemuix generation... but saros not a winner, either is hellebuck, dont look at gibson, Sorokin easkly most fundamentally established of all time but he isn't winning... I wonder what Bryzgolov is doing.
I wonder how would Roy, Brodeur, Hasek would do in todays crazy fast hockey game. Removing the 2 line pass opened the door to many breakaways scoring.
Not only that, but the crackdown on hooking and interference penalties also helped the skilled players like McDavid, Kucherov, Pastrnak, etc. get more speed and room going into the offensive zone as well. As good as players such as Gretzky and Lemieux were, could you imagine the added amount of havoc they could have wreaked without getting illegally slowed down by other players?
Hasek played in the NHL until 08 and in KHL 11 and Brodeur in NHL until 14, so they saw somewhat modern game and were efective even at around 40 years old (Brodeur had 0.917 save percentage on 11-12 final run, Hasek 0.923 in 06-07 conferece final run). If you bring prime Brodeur and prime Hasek to this day with time machine they will both be starters at the beginnig of the next season. They need an adjustment period but they would be completely capable athleets. Haseks style would be wacky thoug
@@lassenikulainen6722 Hasek, Roy and Brodeur prime, would even outsmart today's players! They were just that good mentally. Todays goalies are mostly dumb, programmed, predictable robots!
Brodeur, Roy, Belfor, Richter, didn't have to deal with that stupid trapezoid rule, take that out and make goalies great again.
Glenn Hall's consecutive games played record is insane. 502 for a goalie in the era of no face masks. Plus he started about 50 or more in the playoffs.
Developing Canadian goaltenders or lack of quality goaltending prospects has been an topic of debate for quite sometime now. Carter Hart was supposed to be the next hot Canadian goaltender but had been underwhelming. Not sure if it's a lack of quality grassroots programs or just the position not as popular as it was in the 90's - 2000's.
European and American goaltenders and programs have bridged that gap and now lead in that field of yielding better goalies.
I hate the modern style of goaltending. 6'4" or taller, 95% of the game on their knees just blocking the net. Everyone shoots high. Absolutely the goaltending is worse, much worse. Need to make to net 6" higher to get goalies standing up again and moving on their feet. And smaller guys would actually be better. I'm tired of seeing 80% of the goals scored over the shoulder. Boring as eff
I doubt that if goalies returned to the stand-up style, players would try top shelf shots as much as they do now. Yes, low shots would come back, but that's how REAL hybrid goalies from the 1990s played. Kick save first, butterfly second. Not to mention the pad stack saves. And another thing I also hate are how the goalies never come out of the net, they're almost inside them, that literally gives shooters the most amount of scoring possibilities.
@@choppergunner8650 exactly. It's percentage goaltending. Pick the largest person possible, put on the largest gear allowed, and make yourself into a square and block the largest percentage of the goal possible. It's a brutal style. Ugly to watch
missed opportunity to put Eddie Lack as thumbnail
Shooters and their sticks are better now
In recent years the hottest goalies have been coming out of Russia.
It's funny that so many people in the media and fans complain about goaltending but then also complain when top guys aren't scoring goals. Well, you can't have both. If guys are scoring other guys are letting in goals. I'm of the mindset of play better defense and out score your problems. 😅 I think teams give up on goalies and trade too easy. They get traded and get hot someplace else, and win a cup or the goalie they traded for gets injured and the teams is really in trouble. It's the most difficult job in the game and not every team can have elite goaltending so they have to find other ways to win.
it's funny listening to everyone dump on skinner but tampa had 3 good goals and two that required some luck, the bat out of the air and the last second 5 hole. even if a great goaltender is standing on his head then tampa would still have likely of scored 3 of the 5.
All goalies in the modern era are exactly the same. They're all very good, to excellent. That's why no one really stands out.
I was a big Kipper fan growing up. Guy was a great goaltender. It was awesome having him in Calgary as a kid
I think I would push the opposite. The reason is there are more good goaltenders. Then add the cap on top of that. Back in the day, if you found a good goaltender, you paid through the nose to keep them around. No cap no problem. That led to name recognition and familiarity. There are lots of 90's goalies I remember as top notch goalies, but their numbers say otherwise. Today, with a larger pool of good NHL goalies and a smaller pool of money, teams are more likely to platoon and swap guys in or out. Their numbers aren't worse, but you don't get that name familiarity and identity to a team like you used to.
Cujo 100% should be in hall of fame
Growing up, having so many elite goalies; Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Mike Richter, Martin Brodeur, John Vanbiebruck, Curtis Joseph, Andy Moog, Grant Fuhr,
Ed Belfour, Mike Vernon, Arthur Irbe, Tom Barrasso, Nikolai Khabebulin, Chris Osgoud, Jarmo Myllis (International long-time winner of Finland and European leagues),
etc-etc they where so many iconioc goalies that you very well knew and what teams they represented and was year-by-ear steady net-savers.
Today, it feels like all teams have new goalies evrey year and few that really make themselves stand-out in a longer run to become "iconic".
But it is not that goalies are not as good, it would be the opposite as goalies have developed greatly thanks to previous tallents.
Goalies like Vladislav Tretiak, Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Ed Belfour etc. are arguably the goalies that took it to the level where we have the school now!
The gameplay is also very different now. Much faster gameplay to start....
Exactly. I wasn't born back then and only started actually following hockey this year, but I love to learn as much as I can about the sport. Seems like the high GAA and lower sv% numbers from the 1980s was mostly due to faulty defense. In the late 1980s and through the 1990s, you had goalies that would become icons of those teams for years. Chris Osgood, John Vanbiesbrouck, Mike Richter, Tom Barrasso, Ed Belfour, Sean Burke (although he was traded a lot), Jon Casey, Darcy Wakaluk, Dominik Hasek, Martin Brodeur, Grant Fuhr, Mike Vernon, Ron Hextall... the list goes on and on. Nowadays, goalies jump from team to team, and only a small number of them actually stay in the team. As a Panthers fan, in Bobrovsky's case, it's due to a long contract that was signed. I'm sure that if the Panthers had signed a smaller contract, he'd be gone already.
@@choppergunner8650 Great to hear! I'm always glad when new people discovers the greatness of hockey.
Reminds me of myself as a kid in the 90's before the internet and I read all books I could covering hockey, read all articles of hockey and watched as much hockey as possible on TV.
Not only did I learn hockey that way but how to make great research on various things as well, so good to have if the internet crashes for a longer time.
Hard to say for sure. Defensemen also play a role in goalie numbers and imo elite defensemen haven't stood out the same as they did 10-15 years ago.
Possibly because penalties are called more easily now
Ehrmmm...no Bobvrosky? No Jonathan Quick?
They're on the board.
Joseph Woll has a .916 this season but only has 13 starts. He's the goalie of the future for the Leafs if he can stay healthy.
HUGE **** for any goalie that has had overtime wins. Padded win ridiculously.
I think there are a lot of factors that go into answering this question. One of them is the number of teams in the NHL. Just like the McDAvid's of the league, the great Brodeur's, Roy's of this league will always be few. Back in the day, there were backup goalies BUT i don't think there was the concept of tandems like there is now. Were there as many games in a season back then? this probably makes it necessary for tandems. not to mention, scientific advancements in physical conditioning and optimal performance metrics that probably exist. The goalie, being the last line of defense, i think has to be very psychologically strong and able to let go of any errors he makes and move on or let go of errors made by the team in front of him. Also, these very elite athletes like McDavid, Draisaitl, Rafael Nadal, Djokovic in tennis, they have that extra gear that they kick into when necessary. these elite goalies have it too. Like the amazing saves of Marc-André Fleury or Vasilevski the other night when the Oilers tried so hard to come back. LOVE YOUR VIDEOS - KEEP UP THE AMAZING WORK YOU DO.
Obviously the USA has an elite goalie shortage - because we haven't had a USA born and trained goalie bring the cup in for 30 years.
I originally heard something about a goalie shortage about a year and a half ago - but over a decade ago, we saw in the lower leagues when they started changing the gear constantly
Lot of people could not afford to keep up - there was no used gear, you had to buy new.
They kept shrinking gear, jerseys, regulating how much tape they could have on their sticks
It was supposed to be fun and it wasn't fun anymore for those kids.
This is an expensive sport! Beyond the commitment. Let's hear from hockey parents!
With goalie gear shrinking, the overall GAA went way up - and fans thought it was better shooters. It was smaller goalie gear
The only solution was to start importing huge beasts from the east (Europe)
The first shortage I heard about was us goalies. Our training does not prepare United States goalies to reach elite status.
The last time a USA born / trained goalie won a Stanley cup was 1994. Ritcher nyr
Tim Thomas played in europe, Jonathan quick in the olympics - USA born goalies with international training & experience.
I know the goalie gear change up affected the lower leagues - we lost a lot of goalies 2010-16 ish.
Even my goalie son was in demand year-round, adult leagues, summer leagues, stick & puck. they couldn't run teams without goalies
So it's logical that shortage would trickle up to the NHL a decade later.
I usually like the hockey guys statistics, find them relevant - but old goalie statistics don't apply here.
The way to figure out if there's a shortage is to look at the numbers in the lower leagues -quantity. How many goalies do we have in the USA.
I'd like to hear this report analyzed by country.
I originally heard the goalie shortage coming out of North America - and the beasts from the East were starting to take over. Starting with Andrei vasilevskiy.
Marc Andre Fleury. I have never seen in the history of the league (since I’ve been watching it in the early 80s to now) a goalie so overhyped and overrated. Hear me out. Fleury LOST his job numerous times in Pittsburgh, especially in the playoffs. He was terrible at times and the Pens almost let him walk during a contract negotiation but they signed him and got him a sports psychologist to help him with his game. Everyone states that he’s a 3x Stanley Cup champion and they’re right but 2 of those cup wins were from the bench. No one even knew he was until the Pens paid Vegas to take him off their payroll then he suddenly became a superstar, something I still don’t understand. I think the NHL had something to do with that. I remember Fleury from his disastrous performance in the Gold Medal Game LOSS vs Team USA in 2004, my dad said that he felt sorry for Pittsburgh because this was their goalie of the future. He wasn’t always bad and he had some great regular seasons but he’s never been clutch and in a big game you don’t bet on him, you bet on the other team except for 2009 where he did come through for his team. That was his last clutch performance. As I sit here ready to watch him pass Patrick Roy who dragged a couple of Montreal teams on his back to championship games I can’t help but feel Roy is getting cheated out by a poser who is just hanging on just to pass him and this guy has no business being in the situation that he’s in but that’s just my 2 cents and not everyone will agree with me but as a former goalie I respect what Fleury has done, I just don’t feel as tho he’s EARNED it the way Patrick Roy did.
The NHL is lacking in the number in Elite players, period. I'm not saying there aren't phenomenal players now, but the quality and quantity of elite players has dropped off since the 2005 lockout. The NHL needs to scrap the salary cap and bring back dead puck era hockey.
Your question about rookie goalies devaluing goalies in general is analogous (in some ways) to NFL running backs, IE a great goalie is supported by strong defense and coaching the same way a great running back has a dominant O line and good play calling. It would be hard to argue Brodeur or Roy or Dryden didn't benefit from historic defenseman in front.
The real problem is scouting reports. Binnington had a Cinderella year with the blues I feel at least partly because players didn't know his tendencies and weaknesses to exploit. I feel Hill with VGK is a similar situation entering mid playoffs last season. It takes a good goalie to happen but we've seen relative unknowns perform amazing things and yet never reach those heights again. In a seven game playoff there are huge swings but there are examples during the regular season too.
Some names that come to mind are players like Boucher in Philly or Theodore in Montreal.
Clearly a matter for a whiteboard video down the road.
Carter hart putting himself into the Elite conversation, .919 save percent, 2.42 gaa and is top 10
In gsax with what is essentially an AHL defense, dude steals games
Pretty easy to see why there are no good Canadian goalies anymore. No investment in it. Hockey is already expensive enough let only having parents that can afford goalie equipment or even the most basic goalie school.
I speak from experience as a poor kid who's team had no goalie. I had to scrape together what second hand equipment I could find.
You think any of my coaches knew anything about goaltending? They didn't even know what the butterfly was
The NHL did everything (short of changing the game) to increase scoring and give every advantage to the offense. Defensemen now can’t do what has been done prior to 2010-ish. So any commentary regarding goaltenders needs to consider this. The league wants goals and has arranged the rules to give the maximum benefit to the skilled players.
Why does Cujo need to be in the hall of fame? He was a great goalie, he isn't a HOF'er. Never won a Vezina, never really much of a contender. Hall of Fame is getting watered down, Cujo wold only further water it down.
It's a different Era for sure. Now the "books" on goalies due to technology makes it easier to break them down. Also today's players are more skilled and the sticks make everyone's shot that much better. In the 80s you may have a few good shooters on a team. Today just about the whole team can bring the heat.
Problem is all goalies nowawdays are the same..same technique, same habits. If u can score on one u can score on any.
Back in the day there were sometimes huge differences from a Hasek to a Roy..both great but different approaches and teams couldn't always adapt
The defensive zone diligence of the team playing in front of the goalie is a huge factor in the goalie's statistics, but most hockey journalists will go the quick click-bait route and just blame/praise the goalie for everything related to goals against.
Certainly statistically this year, it doesn't seem like it, but for some reason, even though they won Cups, guys like Adin Hill and Darcy Kuemper are pretty glossed over. I think the issue is that in the past, elite goalies would have sustained runs for almost their entire careers. They'd have down years here and there. Patrick Roy had people chanting for the backup shortly before winning the Stanley Cup in 1993. I know there were people who said he was done around the time the Habs traded him to Denver. But in general, you had goalies who were revered. Now, I've heard debates about whether or not you actually need to pay an elite goalie like a star player at all because the argument is that all you need is a competent goalie who can get hot at the right time. Certainly, Canada isn't producing the same number of elite goalies that they did for decades. And maybe Nashville and San Jose aren't the goalie factories they once were. But in general, it's hard to say.
I've noticed this and it's so bad. NHL has a goalie problem.. SAY IT!!!!
No, they’re not. The league is becoming more offensive, and a big part of that is the stupid ass rules, case in point, the damn Trapezoid.
I think it wouldn’t hurt if the Oilers gave Rodrigue a shot in the NHL. Him & Skinner were the tandem in Bakersfield when we had Smith & Koskinen in the net. So, why not give a shot for a few games and see how it goes
The dead puck era is severely overstated. The numbers weren't that much lower and scoring went down to close to dead puck era levels after teams adapted to no red line
one thing I fear affects future of NHL goalies is cost of playing goalie as junior, its less popular to beging with to want to be a goalie and then if part of those kids dont have finances to be one we might and probaply have already missed some all time great goalies that never played any hockey
scoring is up, no question about it. Its just a matter of time before goalies figure it out again.
Not only is it the most fascinating positions in sports, the position as a whole is on of the most adaptable in pro sports. The goalies will figure it out again like they always do.
Former biased goalie
the rise of backups being able to provide quality starts, especially in the face of named starters getting injured, combined with the salary cap is putting a squeeze on goaltending dollars. contracts like Bobrovsky's also serve as cautionary tales because cap-strapped teams need to save every dollar they can, and they probably can get away with thinking they have the goaltending if one of their goalies goes on a heater.
Ive been saying John Gibson is gonna be traded for literally years, dude must love it in Anaheim or something.
I think there is a lot of mediocrity in goal, but I think defenseman are being asked to do more offense than they have in previous years. It's both those things, also, i do not think there are as many elite, top of the line goal scorers as there has been in previous years. The 3rd and 4th liners are better now than in previous eras, which is why scoring in general is up, but the top end seems smaller and that 2nd group of really, really good players seems even smaller
Shesterkin...he has become to high a tolerance to the Russian Gas, its not working for him anymore.
Some elementary math:
If goals per game is ⬆️ and
Save percentage is the same, then shots on goal are ⬆️. Unless there are a huge increase in empty net goals.
Ken Dryden is the one goalie from before my era I truly wish I could have watched.
Goalies are the new running backs you now need two on your team and your expendable/replaceable.
It's not that the goaltenders aren't elite, it's that the players are just that much better. It's why I'll fight it to my grave that Gretzky isn't the best of all time, but of his era. Everyone can skate, the nutrition, conditioning and skill level is as high as it's ever been. The goaltending is the best it's ever been due to their lateral movement, their size, and the same conditioning , nutrition and skill level that the players possess. The amount of shot attempts per game on average is higher , so it really doesn't surprise me.
Didn't you forget the most important part on that list: modern equipment, both goalies and skaters.
The big thing with goalies is consistency. Sure most nhl goalies could go on runs and have good numbers, but can they keep that level of play at that high level over the long haul... that's what makes a goalie elite. I feel a lot of teams jump on a hot young goalie after a decent year but they can't sustain that level of play.
As a buffalo fan, we need to run with luukonen as a 1A and levi as a 1B. We need to send comrie down and ride the hot goalie and we'll be fine.
Talbot has always been, kinda, great...it is just if he can stay healthy.
What makes it feel like goal tending is down, is there are a lot of elite teams that are just missing a goaltender. The same number of elite goaltenders exist, its just there are a lot of elite goaltenders on not elite teams.
What a stupid question, compared to past eras modern goalies are ALL elite.
No there are a lot of good goalies ita just there are no real bad goalies now in the past the differences were bigger now they are minute.
A great goalie will steal 8-10 or more games each season, when the team is being outclassed in a game
We had the greatest goalie ever for The Sens. For 3 months. Dominator.
Kem Holland could always waste another 25 million on a useless goalie !
I can’t imagine earnestly holding the opinion that goaltending today isn’t the best that it ever has been
Goaltenders are better on a wider scale so they dont stand out as much as they used to.
im viewing this as transtition period were gonna get more elite goalies soon
Smart Las Vegas money goes to Saros being traded to Toronto.
DeSmith was such a steal.
So difficult to compare eras...often times when i watch guys giving up 5, 6 7 goals a game lately, my first thought is to think old time goalies were were better on average...then i catch myself and realize you can't compare the average skill level then and now. there are WAY more better skilled players now. and to verify that, you just have to watch video footage.. not to mention, defensemen were allowed to get away with a lot more back in the 70's, which helped out the goals against. My old favorites growing up on Long Island were Chico Resch and Kelly Hrudy... some pretty tough guys to get the puck past!
You don't even have to look that far back to see the difference in skill. A little while ago I was watching video from the Canucks 2011 playoff run, and the game breaking chemistry of the Sedin twins is now pretty standard for pretty much every top line, and even quite a few second lines around the league.
Demko? you fr right now?
32 teams waters it down.
🙌