I am in the final year of Ph.D. Very exhausted from the process. Over the year the value of a Ph.D. is getting lower and lower and I think I will eventually have my own business instead of working for someone else.
I am in the beginning of my second year and I am about to quit. I totally agree about the value getting lower. At first I grew a lot in the first months but now I am stagnating and I would much rather prefer spending my remaining time building my own business or some other skills that make me more relevant for the "real" job market. What is sort of maddening for me is to realize that I could use the money given to me for my PhD in a much better way to build a business in IT. But it's very hard to get this sort of money from the government in my country even though it could have huge payoff whereas my PhD will certainly have almost no payoff at all.
@@Teilnehmer I am in my second year and I strongly relate with what you are saying. I am at a point where I feel like even if I do finish this PhD , I won’t be happy with it because of the strain it puts you through for what returns? The return does not match the investment at all. I’ve started investing in my own business, buying some property something I know has a lasting direct benefit.
When seeing your seniors who graduated their PhD many years ago are still doing their postdoc fellowships, and the postdocs who work in your lab who completed their second postdoc placement are still struggling to get even a job interview for an academic position. And some of those PhD graduates who finally ended up getting a job after years of job search are working in a team mostly with only Master's and even Bachelor's qualifications.
I am in my fourth year and the “rolling down a hill” analogy is really spot on. It’s tough, but I’m trying to keep my momentum (even if it’s really super tiny right now) going!
I'll start my fourth year next semester and I still didn't write any, I wonder if I can work hard for the Fourth and the Fifth year can I make it possible? I'm in the green buildings field and I don't have experiments everything is going through my computer even no lab hours. I'm frustrated in the same time
I am two months in my second year and I am about to quit. All the reasons in this video - except "leaving to write up" - are valid for me. Especially realizing how academia really works was a big letdown. My field also further complicates this issue because it's a very dry and boring subject. The majority of researchers in my field are very cynical about their work and it's very clear to most people that it shouldn't be founded anymore. But because of how the system works and political reasons from decades ago a lot of work is still being funded even though it is of absolutely no consequence to society. In addition to that I have experienced too much harassment at the institute and I just don't want to deal with that anymore. I tried bringing it up with the supervisor but it only got worse, she went on to further harass me, threatening to fire me because I criticized her racist remarks while other people who harassed me got away scot-free. Another reason is that I get almost no benefit from having a supervisor because my topic is completely out of her expertise. She actually could be of help in some areas because they touch on the theoretical foundations of the field. But it has become clear that she is actually completely clueless about that as well - in fact most of her supposed advice or plans have turned out to be a net negative because of how fundamentally wrong she misunderstood underlying basics of the field. Now at first the independence was very interesting because of the challenge and freedom but more and more it becomes a negative. And I basically realized that I don't want to be a researcher. I thought this was a childhood dream of mine but I realized it's not. I still love learning but there are better ways for me to make a contribution to society than research in the area of my PhD. Because of health reasons I will probably die decades earlier than the mean life expectancy. I don't want to spend the time I have with something I don't really believe in anymore.
@@mortalkomment8028 I am actually already traumatized by it. I am currently doing some trauma therapy about all of that stuff. Definitely not worth it.
I have 6 months to submit my thesis for examination. I'm so exhausted after 6 years. I have 11 years experience in higher education while full time M&D candidate in different universities from where I worked & lived. I'm 36, relocated many times, no family, lost close associates & aunt (2021-22), an original chapter but rebuilding & enriching my life with creative things.
I am so sorry about your Mum, Andy. But, the 'oh crikey, that's going to be me, one day' bereavement thoughts are very real. Your timing as always is uncanny! I'm doing a PhD on The Monkees and their lead guitarist, my crush of 56 years, died on Friday. My first thought was to abandon the PhD. I hope that thought goes away! But it was the first one. I've known loads of people give up on a PhD and the overwhelming reason has been that thinking about having a PhD is more pleasant than actually doing one. I don't think they mean not to do one, they just never get round to it. They register, tell everyone they are doing a PhD and talk endlessly about why their topic is so interesting and that turns out to be enough for them. No one is more surprised than them when the University chucks them out!
Andy, I really appreciate your videos. Thank you for making them. If I could only give one piece of advice to, say… my own kids, I would tell them this: Your life will have ups and downs. These will be amplified in academia. Your lows will be really stressful and could last for long periods of time. Your highs will be really exciting, but may only last for moments. Try to balance them out for yourself. When you are low, reflect on exciting moments that you are proud of. When you are at one of these great moments, do what you can to preserve it for later use. Pictures, memories, framed documents, mementos, a saved emails folder, whatever it takes to bottle that up for later use. In the long run, you will have so many ups and downs that it doesn’t make sense to make major decisions when you are at nadirs or peaks. Just try for an even, balanced outlook with a long-term horizon and short-term patience.
All your points are valid, Dr Stapleton. That said, this is from one specific perspective - the traditional student's. As a mature student who did and completed my PhD part time while holding down a full time job, I found that one can indeed have one's cake and eat it. Then again, I am not a STEM PhD, which has a very different set of demands altogether, with labwork and such.
I was about a third of the way through one when i quit. I was tired of earning 24k a year working at least 6 full days a week, with everyone telling me there's hardly any employment opportunities in academia on the other side of it. I knew way too many people stuck in the post-doc cycle because of this very reason and i decided it was a future id rather avoid. It all clicked one day that i was wasting time and money, and i was racking my brain trying to find a reason to stay.
I did my first degree at 34 and am doing a PhD at 73. We are all the oldest we have ever been, which is 'old' compared to how old we have been. So my first piece of advice is don't create a negative self-image by entangling yourself in your age. Whatever age you are, enjoy it for a year, then move on!!! The positives: No spots (g), Seriously, you have more time to concentrate on your goal because your hormones are not telling you to focus on getting drunk/high and being desperate to fit in. The negatives: People who have never been your age either try to relate to you as they do to the only other people they know who are older...their parents or (worse) their grandparents. People who have never been your age make assumptions that are irritating...usually, that you know nothing about IT; that you have lost the power of reasoned thought and that you will treat your studies like a hobby that might just as well be knitting. Academic staff will be younger than you and will either feel threatened by you, or patronise you. The biggest single hurdle I've had to face is convincing young academic staff that their preconceptions about 'mature' students are wrong. We don't just watch soap operas and talk about domestic chores. Doing this PhD now, my biggest challenge is not falling foul of the 'woke' culture. Universities seem no longer to be places for controversial debates. The fact that I think that is a shame, probably shows my age more than anything else. So don't worry that you remember the turn of the millennium!! I remember George VI being King!!!!! You're a PhD student, be proud and be successful! Good luck.
@@janswanton3631 life of a mature student is something i always want to understand. I guess in your 70's might as well say "fuck it, i'm getting a PhD... nothing's stopping me now"
@@geoffrygifari3377 Life did sort of get in the way up until now! But 'f*** it, I'm doing this' has always been my motto...started, I think in my teens when my Dad said 'You're not going out dressed like that!!'
Thank you so much. I'm in my third year of a PhD program in urban planning, focusing on sustainable building and renewable energy, and working a part-time job as an english teacher for young kids , but I feel like I have plenty of time on my hands and that I can't do it, even though I really want to. I want to be a doctor and a subject matter authority :(
The 4th reason, having the topic of research not fitting enough, sounds like it could be a video on its own. What is the best kind of research topic? Maybe from your own chemistry experience
I know what you mean by "earthquakes", I have lost my mother too and became my disabled brother's primary caretaker in only three months, during my second year. Then, the pandemics happened and we weren't allowed to go to school or use public transport for a very long time. I feel that there's no catching a break. I am about to enter my fifth year and nowhere near the end. I have been considering quitting for several weeks now. One reason I am still "hanging in there" is that I don't think it's right to make life altering decisions if I am not in the right frame of mind. The frame of mind changes and I will regret it later. But I am not going to lie, it is not at all easy. Each day, just showing up, is a struggle. I already knew that academia was not the right fit for me when I started, so that's an advantage I had, there was no deception in my case. I knew there are other opportunities for people with PhDs, particularly in my field. But nothing sounds exciting anymore.
3rd and 4th issue sound like they're out of our control. But the first two problems (not understanding the real cost & abandoning the writing while already having a "real life") seem like when somebody is misinformed about a PhD, or that PhD is never really the best path for them in the first place. Have you met someone you're sure was gonna succeed but eventually bailed out? Or someone encountering the first 2 crises but nevertheless prevailed?
I really resonate with your post. I started my PhD in the fall last year and now halfway through the second semester I found out that I was so misinformed. I told my advisor about my change in heart and that I’m 100% leaving the program and he wouldn’t have it. He said I have potential, and that may be true, but it is not a good fit for me. It took me a little bit to realize what a PhD entails. You don’t find out all the nitty gritty until you actually start and talk to your friends and faculty
Of the four reasons for not completing a phd, the one that I see most often is having a full time job while writing up. The research is essentially done, some even have published journal papers! Try to understand the difficulty of finding time to write the thesis when you have a full time job. The person now has a busy, stressful new job that has a lot of its own challenges. Almost no one would decide to use the little free time in the evenings and weekends to write the thesis, instead of resting, relaxing, doing sport, and spending time with friends and family. After two three years, when they are more established in their career, they realise they really don't need the phd and nobody in their circles cares if they have a phd or not. At that time, they would quietly drop the idea of completing the phd. However, I do believe that one day when these people are older they will have a little regret. It's a life time opportunity, and they came so close. If they had just held out getting a full time job for a few months to a year they would have gotten the phd.
Thank you for this video. I do not have a 1st author publication from my PhD so my PhD is incomplete in that regard even if I wrote the thesis. I could not finish my paper due to lack of guidance from my advisor and my poor mental health.
I have same problem, my advisor did not even provide basic lab supplies such as nitrogen gas , solvents, pipette tips working autoclave or working HPLC. I had to repair all the instrument and autoclave with no parts. I have to wash pipette tips and reuse them. It took me a year and a half to get a donated tank of nitrogen for my experiment that was donated by my employer from my outside job. I had to buy my own reagents in many cases. in my 5th year my lab was packed up because the college couldnt pay the rent on the building and all the analytical instruments I were packed, they have been non functional for 2 years. None of these obstacles that I solved were considered during my defense. They were asking why I didnt do thus and thus experiment with the nonfunctional unmaintained instruments and non-existent supplies they provided. I feel cheated about why I paid these people tuition for these conditions, looking back I cant understand why I did that. Now Im begged, no degree so couldnt go to postdoc opportunity that hired me. Looking at vans to buy with my last money so I will have somewhere to live.
I'm not doing a phD but an MA. The program is designed part time so students can work as well and unfortunately it's a) really hard to get scholarships and b) living in Ontario (canada) usually students can apply for OSAP (goverment loans and/or grants...) but not this program. At the time I applied, I was out of school from undergrad for a couple of years and the current job was reduced hours thus part time and I wanted to change fields. A month after starting the first term, I found a full time job and while I ended with a really high grade fall term, I was also left being burnt out and reevaluating my priorities. Am I still interested in this/want to go in this feild? Yes. Especially since current job position isn't in it. But at the same time the if not everything, for sure 90% of it defines why I'm like .... "maybe I should just stop and not finish"
Let's be honest here. Those who quit their PhDs are weak individuals. They often fail at other things too (i.e., careers). I have never met an individual who had quit their PhD and were doing amazing things. It is always PhD graduates doing amazing things.
Reason 5: Common sense finally kicked in
I am in the final year of Ph.D. Very exhausted from the process. Over the year the value of a Ph.D. is getting lower and lower and I think I will eventually have my own business instead of working for someone else.
I am in the beginning of my second year and I am about to quit. I totally agree about the value getting lower. At first I grew a lot in the first months but now I am stagnating and I would much rather prefer spending my remaining time building my own business or some other skills that make me more relevant for the "real" job market. What is sort of maddening for me is to realize that I could use the money given to me for my PhD in a much better way to build a business in IT. But it's very hard to get this sort of money from the government in my country even though it could have huge payoff whereas my PhD will certainly have almost no payoff at all.
@@Teilnehmer I am in my second year and I strongly relate with what you are saying. I am at a point where I feel like even if I do finish this PhD , I won’t be happy with it because of the strain it puts you through for what returns? The return does not match the investment at all. I’ve started investing in my own business, buying some property something I know has a lasting direct benefit.
The phd used to be the most important thing in my life until my mum passed away and my dad got cancer. I'm sorry for your loss Andy
I'm sorry to hear about your mum and dad, Nicky.
Sorry for your lost, the same reason here. I lost my father and my mother during my PhD. I am thinking to quit due to reason 3 ans 4.
When seeing your seniors who graduated their PhD many years ago are still doing their postdoc fellowships, and the postdocs who work in your lab who completed their second postdoc placement are still struggling to get even a job interview for an academic position. And some of those PhD graduates who finally ended up getting a job after years of job search are working in a team mostly with only Master's and even Bachelor's qualifications.
I am in my fourth year and the “rolling down a hill” analogy is really spot on. It’s tough, but I’m trying to keep my momentum (even if it’s really super tiny right now) going!
I'll start my fourth year next semester and I still didn't write any, I wonder if I can work hard for the Fourth and the Fifth year can I make it possible? I'm in the green buildings field and I don't have experiments everything is going through my computer even no lab hours. I'm frustrated in the same time
I am two months in my second year and I am about to quit. All the reasons in this video - except "leaving to write up" - are valid for me. Especially realizing how academia really works was a big letdown. My field also further complicates this issue because it's a very dry and boring subject. The majority of researchers in my field are very cynical about their work and it's very clear to most people that it shouldn't be founded anymore. But because of how the system works and political reasons from decades ago a lot of work is still being funded even though it is of absolutely no consequence to society.
In addition to that I have experienced too much harassment at the institute and I just don't want to deal with that anymore. I tried bringing it up with the supervisor but it only got worse, she went on to further harass me, threatening to fire me because I criticized her racist remarks while other people who harassed me got away scot-free.
Another reason is that I get almost no benefit from having a supervisor because my topic is completely out of her expertise. She actually could be of help in some areas because they touch on the theoretical foundations of the field. But it has become clear that she is actually completely clueless about that as well - in fact most of her supposed advice or plans have turned out to be a net negative because of how fundamentally wrong she misunderstood underlying basics of the field. Now at first the independence was very interesting because of the challenge and freedom but more and more it becomes a negative.
And I basically realized that I don't want to be a researcher. I thought this was a childhood dream of mine but I realized it's not. I still love learning but there are better ways for me to make a contribution to society than research in the area of my PhD. Because of health reasons I will probably die decades earlier than the mean life expectancy. I don't want to spend the time I have with something I don't really believe in anymore.
Sorry that you have a hard time with your supervisor. I hope you get the best out of your experience.
Supervisors can be total Ds. Hope you can get out of that without a trauma.
@@mortalkomment8028 I am actually already traumatized by it. I am currently doing some trauma therapy about all of that stuff. Definitely not worth it.
Hi. Would you mind give us an update of your situation? Thanks!
Dr Stapleton, your voice is quite motivating and topics are quick to point, encourage to keep doing more video. It really helps.
I am in in 7th year and in extreme disagreement with my guide . Everyday i want to quit and end this misery..
I very nearly quit my PhD halfway. Sometimes I wish I did. I just finished, but I don't feel like it was worth the pain.
I have 6 months to submit my thesis for examination. I'm so exhausted after 6 years. I have 11 years experience in higher education while full time M&D candidate in different universities from where I worked & lived. I'm 36, relocated many times, no family, lost close associates & aunt (2021-22), an original chapter but rebuilding & enriching my life with creative things.
I am so sorry about your Mum, Andy. But, the 'oh crikey, that's going to be me, one day' bereavement thoughts are very real.
Your timing as always is uncanny!
I'm doing a PhD on The Monkees and their lead guitarist, my crush of 56 years, died on Friday. My first thought was to abandon the PhD. I hope that thought goes away! But it was the first one.
I've known loads of people give up on a PhD and the overwhelming reason has been that thinking about having a PhD is more pleasant than actually doing one. I don't think they mean not to do one, they just never get round to it. They register, tell everyone they are doing a PhD and talk endlessly about why their topic is so interesting and that turns out to be enough for them. No one is more surprised than them when the University chucks them out!
Andy, could you do a video on mental health issues of PhD student and how to overcome it.
I think he has some video on anxiety ad I think it touches on other issues as well.
th-cam.com/video/kvM_UZp59U8/w-d-xo.html
Andy, I really appreciate your videos. Thank you for making them.
If I could only give one piece of advice to, say… my own kids, I would tell them this:
Your life will have ups and downs. These will be amplified in academia. Your lows will be really stressful and could last for long periods of time. Your highs will be really exciting, but may only last for moments.
Try to balance them out for yourself. When you are low, reflect on exciting moments that you are proud of. When you are at one of these great moments, do what you can to preserve it for later use. Pictures, memories, framed documents, mementos, a saved emails folder, whatever it takes to bottle that up for later use.
In the long run, you will have so many ups and downs that it doesn’t make sense to make major decisions when you are at nadirs or peaks. Just try for an even, balanced outlook with a long-term horizon and short-term patience.
I have just seen my own group member on the verge of dropping out of the PhD due to poor narrow hard topic selection.
All your points are valid, Dr Stapleton. That said, this is from one specific perspective - the traditional student's. As a mature student who did and completed my PhD part time while holding down a full time job, I found that one can indeed have one's cake and eat it. Then again, I am not a STEM PhD, which has a very different set of demands altogether, with labwork and such.
I was about a third of the way through one when i quit. I was tired of earning 24k a year working at least 6 full days a week, with everyone telling me there's hardly any employment opportunities in academia on the other side of it. I knew way too many people stuck in the post-doc cycle because of this very reason and i decided it was a future id rather avoid. It all clicked one day that i was wasting time and money, and i was racking my brain trying to find a reason to stay.
Andy, could you do a video on people entering into doing a PhD later in life (35+)
I second this, I am planning to do one, and I am 38, with a well-paid job, and my company is sponsoring it.
I did my first degree at 34 and am doing a PhD at 73.
We are all the oldest we have ever been, which is 'old' compared to how old we have been.
So my first piece of advice is don't create a negative self-image by entangling yourself in your age. Whatever age you are, enjoy it for a year, then move on!!!
The positives:
No spots (g),
Seriously, you have more time to concentrate on your goal because your hormones are not telling you to focus on getting drunk/high and being desperate to fit in.
The negatives:
People who have never been your age either try to relate to you as they do to the only other people they know who are older...their parents or (worse) their grandparents.
People who have never been your age make assumptions that are irritating...usually, that you know nothing about IT; that you have lost the power of reasoned thought and that you will treat your studies like a hobby that might just as well be knitting.
Academic staff will be younger than you and will either feel threatened by you, or patronise you. The biggest single hurdle I've had to face is convincing young academic staff that their preconceptions about 'mature' students are wrong. We don't just watch soap operas and talk about domestic chores.
Doing this PhD now, my biggest challenge is not falling foul of the 'woke' culture. Universities seem no longer to be places for controversial debates. The fact that I think that is a shame, probably shows my age more than anything else.
So don't worry that you remember the turn of the millennium!! I remember George VI being King!!!!!
You're a PhD student, be proud and be successful! Good luck.
Oh i'd love this one
@@janswanton3631 life of a mature student is something i always want to understand. I guess in your 70's might as well say "fuck it, i'm getting a PhD... nothing's stopping me now"
@@geoffrygifari3377 Life did sort of get in the way up until now! But 'f*** it, I'm doing this' has always been my motto...started, I think in my teens when my Dad said 'You're not going out dressed like that!!'
Sorry to hear of your mother’s passing Andy.
Great points doing write up myself after stipend ended and money running out. Aiming to get to the end.
Thank you so much. I'm in my third year of a PhD program in urban planning, focusing on sustainable building and renewable energy, and working a part-time job as an english teacher for young kids , but I feel like I have plenty of time on my hands and that I can't do it, even though I really want to. I want to be a doctor and a subject matter authority :(
Hey .....🥲
The mortality.....part of your video.
...hit hard ....I keep asking the same question
The 4th reason, having the topic of research not fitting enough, sounds like it could be a video on its own. What is the best kind of research topic? Maybe from your own chemistry experience
I know what you mean by "earthquakes", I have lost my mother too and became my disabled brother's primary caretaker in only three months, during my second year. Then, the pandemics happened and we weren't allowed to go to school or use public transport for a very long time. I feel that there's no catching a break. I am about to enter my fifth year and nowhere near the end. I have been considering quitting for several weeks now. One reason I am still "hanging in there" is that I don't think it's right to make life altering decisions if I am not in the right frame of mind. The frame of mind changes and I will regret it later. But I am not going to lie, it is not at all easy. Each day, just showing up, is a struggle. I already knew that academia was not the right fit for me when I started, so that's an advantage I had, there was no deception in my case. I knew there are other opportunities for people with PhDs, particularly in my field. But nothing sounds exciting anymore.
3rd and 4th issue sound like they're out of our control. But the first two problems (not understanding the real cost & abandoning the writing while already having a "real life") seem like when somebody is misinformed about a PhD, or that PhD is never really the best path for them in the first place.
Have you met someone you're sure was gonna succeed but eventually bailed out? Or someone encountering the first 2 crises but nevertheless prevailed?
I really resonate with your post. I started my PhD in the fall last year and now halfway through the second semester I found out that I was so misinformed. I told my advisor about my change in heart and that I’m 100% leaving the program and he wouldn’t have it. He said I have potential, and that may be true, but it is not a good fit for me. It took me a little bit to realize what a PhD entails. You don’t find out all the nitty gritty until you actually start and talk to your friends and faculty
Of the four reasons for not completing a phd, the one that I see most often is having a full time job while writing up. The research is essentially done, some even have published journal papers! Try to understand the difficulty of finding time to write the thesis when you have a full time job. The person now has a busy, stressful new job that has a lot of its own challenges.
Almost no one would decide to use the little free time in the evenings and weekends to write the thesis, instead of resting, relaxing, doing sport, and spending time with friends and family. After two three years, when they are more established in their career, they realise they really don't need the phd and nobody in their circles cares if they have a phd or not. At that time, they would quietly drop the idea of completing the phd.
However, I do believe that one day when these people are older they will have a little regret. It's a life time opportunity, and they came so close. If they had just held out getting a full time job for a few months to a year they would have gotten the phd.
Thank you for this video. I do not have a 1st author publication from my PhD so my PhD is incomplete in that regard even if I wrote the thesis. I could not finish my paper due to lack of guidance from my advisor and my poor mental health.
I have same problem, my advisor did not even provide basic lab supplies such as nitrogen gas , solvents, pipette tips working autoclave or working HPLC. I had to repair all the instrument and autoclave with no parts. I have to wash pipette tips and reuse them. It took me a year and a half to get a donated tank of nitrogen for my experiment that was donated by my employer from my outside job. I had to buy my own reagents in many cases. in my 5th year my lab was packed up because the college couldnt pay the rent on the building and all the analytical instruments I were packed, they have been non functional for 2 years. None of these obstacles that I solved were considered during my defense. They were asking why I didnt do thus and thus experiment with the nonfunctional unmaintained instruments and non-existent supplies they provided. I feel cheated about why I paid these people tuition for these conditions, looking back I cant understand why I did that. Now Im begged, no degree so couldnt go to postdoc opportunity that hired me. Looking at vans to buy with my last money so I will have somewhere to live.
Your mother would be very proud of you 💔
I'm not doing a phD but an MA. The program is designed part time so students can work as well and unfortunately it's a) really hard to get scholarships and b) living in Ontario (canada) usually students can apply for OSAP (goverment loans and/or grants...) but not this program.
At the time I applied, I was out of school from undergrad for a couple of years and the current job was reduced hours thus part time and I wanted to change fields.
A month after starting the first term, I found a full time job and while I ended with a really high grade fall term, I was also left being burnt out and reevaluating my priorities. Am I still interested in this/want to go in this feild? Yes. Especially since current job position isn't in it. But at the same time the if not everything, for sure 90% of it defines why I'm like .... "maybe I should just stop and not finish"
Thanks...Im struggling
10 year PhD !!! wow
homeless after phd are there a lot of people like that? It beggered me
Oh my ! Very discouraging
Exactly why the intention of doing PhD to play Elon musk must be defined from the start
In my case 3 rd reason is right😂
Beard to long.
Let's be honest here. Those who quit their PhDs are weak individuals. They often fail at other things too (i.e., careers). I have never met an individual who had quit their PhD and were doing amazing things. It is always PhD graduates doing amazing things.
lol