I read that for some people empathy is not empathy but a traumatic coping method developed by people who have grown up with narcissists. Some people can become hyper-attentive to tone and can respond with high anxiety because their friends or family members might "blow up at them" and so they become people-pleasers who try constantly to "diffuse the bomb". But there's no empathy involved in the process, just pure self-preservation.
Fascinating! So a strong emotional response to external emotional stimuli from a completely self-preservative standpoint - I wonder just how many people who identity as empaths experience in fact what is in many ways the reverse of empathy. If emotional reactions to a situation are entirely born from a fear of consequence as related to one's own comfortable life experience, absent any relation to the emotional state of the other person, this would ironically be closer to sociopathy on the empathy spectrum!
We can’t feel another person’s feelings. This is really important to understand. We can only feel our own feelings. Empathy is the ability to understand another person’s feelings and respond appropriately. When we share our understanding then what we can say is that our empathy serves to validate another person’s feelings. So in this respect empathy = understanding. People pleasing others in order to passify or make others happy, is really about controlling others feelings, and you’re quite right to identify this as a coping mechanism. It is not true empathy. What happens in relationships between narcissists and INFJs, especially if the INFJ is a child growing up with a narcissist parent(s), is that the INFJ will seek to harmonise any disharmony and in doing so begins the process of learning to become a people pleaser (notice this is a learned behaviour). The more trauma they experience, the less likely they are to accept their own intuition of the reality of the situation. Children are so trusting and it is very easy for a narcissist to control and manipulate the INFJ child into disregarding their own feelings and intuition, and force them to prioritise others feelings and needs instead. Inevitably, in this type of relationship, the INFJ forms what is called a ‘trauma bond’ with the narcissist, and they remain trapped in that the trauma bond until they learn to listen to their own feelings and intuition. The process of breaking the trauma bond and trusting oneself can take many years during which the INFJ will have to overcome much disruption to their mental health. Healing for the INFJ rests on successfully accepting that their intuition is correct and that their extroverted feelings have been a source of narcissistic supply to a very damaged individual who can never reciprocate in a healthy way. Once they have achieved this, then the narcissist can no longer control the INFJ and the narcissist will discard the INFJ and let them go. The narcissist can only survive if they can have unlimited access to a narcissistic supply. Once the tap is turned off, the narcissist will look elsewhere for their supply. I speak from both person experience (I am an INFJ who grew up with narcissistic parents and siblings), and as a retired children’s mental health nurse who witnessed this dynamic many times, and sat in many child protection conferences, and who helped to counsel these children to trust themselves. The narcissistic/INFJ relationship is the classic ‘narcissist/co-dependent’ relationship.
To Ruth, yes empathy is just to relate to one’s own feelings; yet, it has no thing to do with a reaction or taking an action (pleasing or what name u), that is sympathy. Look at an INTJ, they have empathy (Fi) but usually don’t know to to act upon it (Te or Se)
This is not an “either/or”. thing. People who grew up with a Narcissistic parent are often Anxious-Avoidant on the Attachment spectrum. This means they grew up in an environment so chaotic that they could not adopt any one attachment strategy, even a “maladaptive” one. So the strategy became hypervigilance towards fluctuating emotional states and an ability to read in between the lines and see predictive patterns. The fact that this is an attachment strategy in no way detracts from the person using empathy altruistically. If you used a skill we correlate with altruism to literally save your life (as attachment to caregivers is a life or death matter for children), you are not being a sociopath. Also, as children naturally love their parents and have no mechanism to “unlove” them, the hyper vigilant empathy they give their narcissistic parent is not false in any way.
Now I understand why, as an INTP, I steer away from heavy emotional scenes. I feel incredibly moved, and subsequently drained, when I watch a video of a suffering person for example more than many people around me. I can easily burst into tears when I encounter someone going through intense sad emotions even if I don't understand the context. I'm 33 and I still hide my tears when I watch cartoons for God sake.
Man, that resonates with me. Ive mirrored so many reactions in my lifetime its not even funny. Emotions are hard for us, and it gets even harder when we eventually lose control. People end up mistaking us for extremely closed off, but really, we can actually wear our hearts on our sleeves by complete accident.
This was very interesting. I am an INFP and I relate to both mirror and relational empathy. I think they both are very subjective, though. But yeah, if I see someone crying I CANNOT help but cry myself too... If I see someone close to me being extremely happy I cannot help but be very happy as well. I guess it is a combo of both empathies because I always feel very deeply the emotions that I THINK the other person could be feeling in the situations. And God, when I see an emotional scene in a movie I bowl my eyes out, that's why I prefer watching emotional movies alone. I think many Fi dom users could relate. Anyways, thank you for the video! :)
I find that there is a fifth type of empathy which surpasses the cognitive functions, which is energetic empathy. Some people energetically soak up other people’s energy, which often contain emotional states (but can also include thoughts or spiritual states of being) and feel it within themselves. For example, I can be talking to someone who is behaving very cheerfully, but after the conversation I can feel very heavy and depressed, coming out of nowhere. Later I will realize that this person was depressed and struggling deep down. It can manifest in my feeling extremely tired after being around someone who is tired or sad, even if we have a nice “normal” seeming conversation, or very alive and inspired after being around someone who doesn’t even say much. Being energetically empathetic can be challenging to navigate, it took me decades to even understand what this was, you’re more susceptible to picking up on other people’s stuff, but there is also ability to help others (by emitting energetically as well, feelings of love, peace and stability). Anyway, just wanted to add another layer of complexity to your categories… as an INFP I was especially struck by the idea that Fi based empathy is still coming from a particular perspective that may or may not be the other’s. As we heal our shadows we realize what we are projecting on others, even out of compassion. Thank you for this video and helping us see that there are so many valid ways we can show up for them by witnessing and acknowledging them and what they are experiencing - human nature at its best ♥️
I'm an INTJ who does a lot of sympathy and mirror empathy, but very little of the other two. Sometimes I watch a movie or a show with two different people, and have two completely different reactions based on what the other person is feeling. I am usually unaware of my morphed reaction until I consciously observe my own feelings that resulted from the mirror empathy, then figure out what happened. As far as sympathy goes, I often feel strongly compelled to help people without being very invested into their current state; it is very much like you describe: a discomfort that isn't personal.
Heyyyy just a nice ENTP experience I want to share here! I used to be very much about using sympathy as my only way of relating to other people, which lead me to disregarding people's feelings a lot. I valued the use of Ti over the use of Fe (or in general introverted judging over extroverted judging and thinking over feeling), which caused me to ignore how people were actually feeling because "it didn't make sense to me that they felt like that in the particular situation they were in, since I would never feel like that in their situation." Then at some point, I somehow learned that the current emotional state of the person you're communicating with is actually more important than I thought it was, which caused me to get way better at relating to people through mirror empathy, which then caused me to become a way more pleasant person to talk to, hahah.
I cometely relate to mirroring, which makes me selective about who I want to be around. It also makes me very sensitive to music, literature, drama that is designed to elicit an emotional response. After experiencing someone's negative emotion, however, later I am all about why they got to that place, what could help them not keep reexperiencing it. I rarely share this with them. In other words I become highly analytical but not a fixer.
This is a fascinating video! I'm INTP, and this explanation and the comments have helped me understand my own relationship with other people's feelings. I'm only comfortable with cerebral relation and relational empathy, while sympathy is unpleasant and mirror empathy is something I only do rarely. It takes a lot for me to feel mirror empathy--it's pretty much limited to seeing parents in movies grieving their children or being scared for their children's lives. That's the only guaranteed thing to make me upset that I can't relate to in some way. Even then, I just tear up, nothing much. Seeing other people saying they relate the most to mirror empathy...sounds miserable to me.
As ENFJ and ‘empath’ I would say: excellent dig deep into empathy.... It’s so important especially in the this time...I would also like to add that empathy as such has so much more layers so much more side to it... books can be written about it💎👌🙏😁
I think I use predominantly mirror empathy which is very 'in the moment' and dependent on the strong emotions of those I'm with but then when I'm outside of the emotional substrate and alone I'm more cerebral about it and able to rationalize it in order to find solutions to attempt to help the person avoid whatever it was that caused the problem in the first place.
I tend to be very similar! In the moment I alternate mostly between mirror empathy and sympathy, and outside the moment it tends to be a combination of the other (mostly cerebral)!
I've needed this for the past 2 years (longer if we're being honest) and I've just found it now 👁🤚🏾⛔ THANK YOU 10000000000% You may have just saved a life 🙌🏾Relational Empathy can ruin your LIFE 💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
Firstly, thanks for posting this. I’m glad more people are breaking down the broad concept of empathy. With that said, I’m a bit confused about these specific descriptions and terms. In psychology, it’s usually split into three groups: cognitive empathy, autonomic empathy, and sympathy. The way those three are defined in psychology are much broader than what’s presented here. For example, cognitive empathy is simply perspective taking. It is the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes and there may not be any emotion involved. If there is emotion, it’s yours and not the other person’s. I feel this is a bit different than what’s presented here because as described in the video, emotion is always involved. Sympathy is feeling negative emotions for someone’s plight. It doesn’t require perspective taking. The main thing is the negative emotions evoked. I think of this when I encounter animal abuse. Of course, I can’t imagine myself as a non-human in any meaningful way, but seeing animals hurting will bring about those negative emotions. As for autonomic empathy, I think that’s closest to the mirror empathy you’re referring to. What’s interesting is autonomic empathy may not always include a true feeling of the other person’s emotions. Outwardly, the autonomic system will mimic the other person, but internally, they may or may not feel anything. The psychology literature I’ve come across over the years indicated people may employ one, two, all three, or in extremely rare cases, none. The mirror empathy sounds like a combination of autonomic empathy and sympathy, the sympathy described sounds like cognitive empathy, and relational empathy sounds like cognitive empathy combined sympathy. I’m not sure where cerebral relation fits at first glance. Can you please explain how the breakdown and terms you use differ from the ones used in psychology?
I just wanted to add that some of the most fascinating descriptions included people that had cognitive and autonomic empathy, but no sympathy. Meaning they could completely manipulate a situation by pushing the right buttons of people and giving a physical response, but they truly felt nothing. I think this combination is more worrying than the detachedness typically associated with psychopathy.
Awesome comment! I'd be happy to address this. Cerebral relation is essentially a form of cognitive empathy that is by its nature detached from emotion. It is simply a simulation, but is still an understanding of emotion. Relational empathy is constantly *felt*; it can overalp with cerebral relation, but is bottom-brain originating rather than top-brain. I like the term 'autonomic empathy' but have not come across before to be honest! Mirror empathy is what you describe in essence, as it is mirror neurone-based and non-internal in origin (absent thought). Sympathy is as you say simply feelings of pity and the like without necessarily being empathetic, and is more independent of a shared cerebal/emotional experience.
@@CognitivePersonality Thanks for the clarification! The closest non-scientific term for autonomic empathy I've found is emotional empathy. It's not quite the same because there is still some expectation of emotion attached to it, while autonomic is strictly focused on the involuntary physical response. I've been interested in this for a while because 1) I'm a biologist whose area of study largely incorporated animal behavior 2) I completely lack autonomic empathy. As you can imagine, it weirded people out when I was a child (and probably still now) because it's not common and people find comfort in that mirrored response, and I lack it. Professional evaluation proved that I am perfectly "normal," I'm just detached from people's emotions in a direct sense. To engage emotionally, i must access my own emotions in some sense first. I have strong cognitive empathy and sympathy, but they aren't always used together (relational empathy), but they can be. So far, I have been able to track some of this to genetics. For example, rs53576 is linked to oxytocin receptors. I have the alleles correlated with reduced "empathy." Obviously, it takes more than one SNP to get a full behavioral suite, but it is fascinating looking at the amount of research that still needs to be done on this.
I'm very much a mirror empath. While I do very much possess reflectional empathy, it is no where near as strong as my mirror empathy, I've always struggled with being consumed by other people's emotions, especially their negative emotions.
Really interesting! It would be interesting to see what kind of intertype variance there is - for myself I use mirror and cerebral primarily but do find myself dipping into the others :)
@@CognitivePersonality as a fellow INFJ I use cerebral relating and mirror empathy the most followed by relational empathy. I have developed a dislike for sympathy. I find it to be the most superficial and unhelpful style of relating. I think it tends to enforce dysregulation of the nervous system like adding fuel to fire.
It's certainly interesting in my case, because while I can relationally emoathize, and can almost unconciously do it as an 18 year old, it basically came from observing and reacting to emotions in a mirroring way. I really only became so Fi-heavy from observing my parents and mimicking their relational side to a very impulsive degree. I remember looking at Fe descriptions when I identified as INFP, but looking at xNTPs and xNFJs and how they mirror and remembering how they sounded like me and my empathizing style. Hearong ypu go in depth really helps categprize the two, and it kinda explains what I've gone through as a seemingly F(x) activated thinking type.
thanks for making a video about empathy. if I apply what you said on myself, well, I use more cerebral relation than the rest, although with my closest friends and families id feel mirror empathy but only occasionally. I usually take a piece of emotion, analyzing it, label it, react accordingly (possibly by mirroring + slightly exaggerating the other party's behavior) and if needed id use the result to stabilize a situation, build an initial relation. some call this tactical empathy. I'm surprisingly calm in intense situation, I had never had an argument with anyone so far, no wonder I work in the field of persuasion.most people find me friendly, good at motivating, talking to me is relaxing even therapeutic. however, im pretty detached, it's lonely having little empathy. I have very few friends, every period of my life I have a best one, then I tend to move on from them, afterwords I mostly feel indifferent. I'm an ENTP, this is probably just my particular case. I seldom leave comments after watching video on TH-cam, but I think yours are well-made and informative. more importantly I think you wouldn't simply label me as a sociopath (I don't feel particularly bad about that term just it's still inconclusive).
Yes mirror empathy can definitely be used healthily alongside cerebral relation, even if only to a small degree! Really glad you enjoyed the video! It's likely you aren't a sociopath, but I agree the term is misleading :)
This was a really clear and concise breakdown. I am in total agreement that a balanced mixture of the intellectual and the mirroring is the best way. As a therapist, I think I would not be effective if I projected my own feelings onto my client and got more worked up about their problems than they themselves were. Nor would I be effective if I stayed purely intellectual. I am always learning and growing in how to better weave and balance the types. However, I notice the way I actually experience empathy is not included in this video, or else it is but maybe certain words or phrases threw me off. Recently I discovered- through researching neuroscience and Polyvagal Theory (as well as getting more information about my time in Utero, my Birth and first year of life) that I am very affected and programmed by preverbal trauma. One big distinction in my experience of empathy is that your language suggested that the other types of empathy involved conscious choice. Words like we “take on”, or “feel obligated” to experience another’s emotions. I personally have little conscious control to either feel, or not to feel empathy, unless I am alone, and when alone, like you, it is a purely intellectual activity. The way I feel empathy has no verbal component, so I could not label what “emotion” another person is feeling or what I am feeling. Since it is non-verbal, no words truly convey it, but the closest I could come is saying “I feel the color they feel, I feel the movement within them as if it is in me, I feel myself contract if they contract and expand if they expand”. Sometimes people hear this as a really silly new age thing. Some people think I have a psychic ability. Nope. I’m describing a baby. A baby has not developed the ability to “choose” to go into a state of empathy. A baby doesn’t have words for emotions and cannot separate external and internal stimuli, and can’t separate stimuli or senses into categories. I think this kind of empathy has to do with the earliest stages of brain development. And like the others, it is not any better or worse and has strengths and weaknesses.
Thank you, this is very helpful! I’m infp and highly value both forms of empathy. But socializing is so tiring because, even though I love people and spending time with them, I’m always working. If I don’t feel that the time I spent with them was productive in connecting and helping them emotionally, I feel like I wasted time and energy. I think it would be good to learn to detach a bit.
I find that I have experienced all of the types described. When I was young I had a difficult time with mirror empathy because I would suddenly be overwhelmed with other peoples emotions. Like if a friend was upset, then a little while later I am upset. Now I can see that I was just better at keeping my emotions to myself but then exploding.
Hello! I think I'm trying to use the cerebral relation but sometimes I use other types uncontiously. When I feel mirror empathy it's the most difficult situation because I can't understand why a person feels like that and why I feel the same way. I feel confused and I can't communicate in an optimal way. Now I'll try to be more conscious and keep my emotional reactions under control. Thank you, Harry.
Yes it's very hard to distance yourself when engaging Mirror Empathy - to use Relational Empathy in its place you often need to withdraw from the social situation for a little while :) Exactly - sometimes Cerebral Relation is optimal for acquiring a more objective overview of the situation, in which case other forms may inhibit its effectiveness.
Very interesting video. I personally find myself doing all 4, although I probably end up switching into the safety of cerebral relation slightly more often than the other 3.
Thank you - this sounds very similar to myself! I dip into all four, particularly mirror empathy, but also spend the most time employing cerebral relation, which does indeed feel comparatively safer!
You've done it again, man-- pristine level of precision in clearing up some murky terminology! Thank you, and I look forward to learning more from you! (Any links to buying the CPT book in pdf form, yet?)
The correlation between empathy & sympathy, which explains the 3 types of empathy. empathy = understanding others through their perspective sympathy = understanding their situation through your own perspective the 3 types of empathy: 1) Emotional Empathy = understanding the specific emotions of the other person 2) Cognitive Empathy = understanding the thoughts of the other person 3) Compassionate Empathy = is acting on what you've heard of the other person's emotion (emotional empathy) + what you've heard of what the other person was thinking (cognitive empathy) and turn it into action (give a hug, offer words of comfort etc.) Source: th-cam.com/video/WNbvxism9_k/w-d-xo.html Besides Compassionate Empathy a person can also abuse emotional empathy & cognitive empathy like the Dark Triad and the Dark Empath. The Dark Triad The dark triad is a psychological theory of personality, first published by Delroy L. Paulhus and Kevin M. Williams in 2002, that describes three notably offensive, but non-pathological personality types: Machiavellianism, sub-clinical narcissism, and sub-clinical psychopathy. Each of these personality types is called dark because each is considered to contain malevolent qualities. All three dark triad traits are conceptually distinct although empirical evidence shows them to be overlapping. They are associated with a callous-manipulative interpersonal style. Narcissism is characterized by grandiosity, pride, egotism, and a lack of empathy. Machiavellianism is characterized by manipulation and exploitation of others, an absence of morality, lack of emotion, and a higher level of self-interest. Psychopathy is characterized by continuous antisocial behavior, impulsivity, selfishness, callous and unemotional traits (CU), and remorselessness. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad The Dark Empath New research identifies people high in both empathy and darkness (aka Dark Triad). It may seem that people with elevated Dark Triad traits are not empathic, but it isn't so simple. In a basic sense, empathy serves people higher in dark traits. Dark traits may be a "necessary evil", arguably important for group survival at critical times. Empathy, while serving altruism, is also a tool for the Machiavellian mind, which needs good “intel” for appraising, and potentially taking advantage of, others. Source: www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/experimentations/202008/introducing-the-dark-empath-0
Hello Harry! I discovered your channel recently on the recommendation of Javi, from the "Personal Analysis" channel, and I did a marathon of your videos. You know I'm not very good at talking about things about myself, but for example, when someone's eyes look like they've cut onions, I feel like they're burning too, or in movies like Don't Breathe, I find myself holding my breath to the point where which is difficult for me to see. What kind of empathy would that be? Needless to say, your content is excellent!
Thank you for that video. Very interesting indeed. I am a narcissistic abuse survivor currently learning empathy and trusting myself, my intuition. It was interesting to see the difference between sympathy and empathy. I realise I confused the two. And yes, as you say in your video, there was repression and I was not supposed to be emotional or weak as a child. Showing emotions was considered a weakness and shame. Hence, poor empathy now if any. But I am working on it!
Alright, I've conducted an assessment, and come to admit some things about myself. You're right - I _do_ (sometimes) mirror what others are going through. There's more to my understanding of it which I can't articulate without another long-winded blog post, so I'll leave it there for now. Thanks for the video exploring this topic. It's definitely worthwhile, especially since some of us are accused of being unfeeling tinmen, which simply isn't true. Now I'm curious to watch your other video and find out who the ENTP in LOTR is!
Thanks Alex! I appreciate the self-assessment and open mind :) I'm going to continue referencing back to this video whenever I touch on empathy as I do feel it's important to illustrate the different ways of being empathetic. I do indeed have an ENTP in my LOTR video :D
For me personally, I seem most at home in mirror empathy, or at least that seem to be the default. This is more when I can actually see the person (video or in person). However, my secondary “natural” is cerebral relation. The other two seem to need a bit more of a force to fall into. I can and have done them but it’s more of a conscious effort to get there.
Interesting, I’ve always defined Sympathy as the action and empathy as the perception, with emotive and cerebral forms of both. Between Enneagram 5 freezing up defence and T avoidance of emotional display I very bad a sympathy, even If I desperately want to help people. I’m great for giving people advice and helping them see the world in a different way. Which is course the NeTi speciality. As for empathy I do use a lot of relational empathy whenever I see some sort of injustice that I also experienced. The closer to home the more it triggers. I also use quite a bit of mirror empathy in a controlled way to try and synchronise myself in 1 on 1 conversations with people I care about. Then outside the spectrum of the topic is my “emotional telepathy” where I do actually feel the emotions of others in real time. (Which used to freak people out till I got a better understanding of human nature and how much normal people can handle. People seem to be at least subconsciously aware that I’m reading what’s going on in their heads).
relational empathy as described here is just sympathy imo (a stronger version of what you describe as sympathy it seems to me); mirror empathy is the definition of empathy that distinguishes it from sympathy. i feel like everyone understood these words in this way 20 years ago, but that the difference is being lost as we begin to conflate sympathy and empathy
Thanks for the great comment! As empathy can be defined as feeling the emotions of other people, it is necessary to distinguish between the two ways this can occur. Relational Empathy is very much a form of empathy as the person is through relation feeling the emotions of the other. This needs to be seperate from the concept of Sympathy because the emotions involved are completely different - Sympathy is detached and only relates to the other in an abstract manner. Relational Empathy literally manifests an approximation of another person's emotional state within the self.
This video really helped understand empathy. It took a while for it to click but I talk my journey to be empathetic on my TH-cam channel. I’m not there yet but I have a long way to go
I like Dave and Shannon a lot! While I think we do have some overlap between our systems (such as the twin auxiliary theory) CPT departs from such things as: Demon/Saviour Functions Masculine/Feminine Functions Fixed Subtype Seperate Functions In a nutshell CPT is a hyper-fluid theory that sees cognition as something given to fluctuation, whereas OPT seeks to categorise types and subtypes in a much more absolute manner. Each system is constructed upon case studies so in that regard we have a similar research-base approach, and like many systems we have agreements in some areas and disagreements in others. I do find CPT methodology leads to differing conclusions of what type and functions are in the first place, in comparison to OPT, so I'm not sure the extent to which our systems are compatible :)
how would one distinguish between whether they're using relational or mirror empathy? If relational empathy is interpreting what the other person should be feeling based on your own experiences, wouldn't it sometimes be difficult to tell whether you're just imagining it or actually picking up on their emotions based on behavior?
Why do people seem to think intjs are not empathetic... I think we can be extremely empathetic.. I mean they might be somewhat able to develope a lack of empathy, but I don't think that's inherent. Actually I think we are more likely to be empathetic.. I feel like intjs are usually more likely to be pretty consistently frustrated and annoyed out of this empathy.. I think alot of types similar to intjs are honestly often this way.. (shhh I'm trying to make people nicer.)
hmm ILI here, wondering if we too experience mirror empathy (even with Fe vulnerable). I pick up on the emotional attitude of a person easily so I'm able to mimic it. For example, if someone made a joke but I didn't hear it, when people begin laughing I'd also laugh not because it was funny (i didn't hear it) but because people are laughing and it makes me feel the same way
Hey Harry, I've recently been ruminating on the connection between mirror/relational empathy and unconscious bias, e.g. first impressions which require a quick cognitive or emotional response to a person or situation -wondering if this is something that interests you too?
Oh yes, in this sense empathy can be a double edged sword - it tends to operate reflexively, and can be difficult to recontextualise thereafter. In some senses a conscious relational process can at least make us aware of such biases! Generally mirror empathy operates on face value, and relational empathy can very much over or underestimate the way a person is feeling. Definitely an interesting topic!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It's such an interesting topic and bizarre that we make so many unconscious and conscious snap judgements every day... But, that's its own psychological rabbit hole with social/cultural ramifications around equality and diversity etc. Anyway, really liked this video - would love to see more like it in the future :)
What should one call a Te-Fe, I relay on those when making art; looking up exact words and searching about feelings. 😑 it’s so tricky to keep Fi out and usually results in making completely different pieces.
@@CognitivePersonality I assure you, at a time I had to depect Phonophobia, but couldn't figure out a disturbing shapes pattern nor a noise effect that would annoy every veiwer, i did what I could (Te wise), and Se+Fi (fake Fe) ,to check if it worked, I asked a Fe dom about the image, they said it was ''subtly creepy'', I wish to find more about music techniques that dierectly affect the general feeling dimantion, without waiting for a person's Fi approval.
I just don't know if I feel empathy. When I get into arguments, with people I love or not, I have great difficulties controlling my anger. It feels like they've tried to hurt me, be that whether they've successfully done so or not, and I hurt them worse. I don't even feel bad afterwards - I just feel like they deserve it but I feel like I don't want to feel that way if it's not normal. I've never lost anyone close to me, except animals which broke my heart but it was because I lost them not because they lost their life and I've been told that's not normal. When someone tells me they've lost someone, I understand that I wouldn't want to lose someone but I also don't feel for them. I mean I push everyone away automatically and I just don't know hwo they are feeling - I verbally empathise with them but I'm not sure I feel any emotional empathy. I am an emotional person, for myself I think. I mean I've been doing a lot of analysing, I'm not sure if I felt empathy as a child. I want to work on myself because I push everyone away but it's so difficult when you don't know what's wrong.
Interesting! In some ways relational empathy requires us to have a memory relating to another person's position - we look at a person's dire straits, which triggers a memory, which allows us to feel the emotions of another.
@@CognitivePersonality thank you for responding. Do you have any advice for me? I think this lock down has made me lose perception of myself and I'm not sure even about what I feel.
If mirror empathy expresses itself in the moment, and if it is indeed related to Fe, I'm confused : does that mean that Fe users are prone to misunderstanding people's emotions if they are not physically present? Thanks for the great video, greetings from France.
Not at all - firstly, all types use all functions, just in different ways, so an Fe user can still access other forms of relation :) Furthermore, Mirror Empathatic experiences are stored as memories which can be reflected upon - as an INFJ, to use myself as an example, I reflect upon emotionally charged experiences to understand the mechanisms behind those emotions on a Cerebral Relational level.
@@kcl7864 Not as a hard and fast rule, no, but Fe users will employ more Mirror Empath while Fi users will employ more Relational Empathy - just because a type employs more of one style than another it doesn't mean it doesn't use any other form of empathy :) Fe users use Fi, Te users use Ti, etc. With CPT I'm hoping to demonstrate how every type uses every function, and along these lines ever type uses every empathy - just because one function, or even form of relation, is used more it doesn't mean the others are not used at all. So you can very much apply this video to type, but just like with cognitive functions it isn't as simple as 'using one and not the other'. Hope that clarifies!
@@CognitivePersonality Well, I do understand what you mean - thank you for your thorough replies btw- so clarified it is! I'll need to look up what you mean by CPT, I suppose it's mentionned in your previous videos. And I'll stay tuned for the upcoming ones!!! :D
So in light of your video of INTJ vs INFJ and then this one here: Is another name for relational empathy cognitive empathy? Also, given that it appears as if INFJs are tapping into relational empathy (fi critic and Ti) and mirror empathy (fe and Ti) do you still feel as if INTJs are more empathetic than INFJs. If so how? Also you highlight how cognitive functions at work give birth to different experiences of empathy but is this the only way to tap into empathy? in other words, if you don't utilize these cognitive functions is it impossible for you to feel their respective types of empathy? Also how does Te help with empathy or is it only used for cerebral relation? Also, we know that we can be empathetic with someone and not exercise compassion. Meaning not be compassionate with our empathy or even use empathy to know how to make someone suffer more. Is their cognitive function that would represent compassion or is that separate from cognitive functions? Also how do you think si and ni act to strengthen or weaken ones tapping into empathy?
A lot of great questions! I'll answer them in bits if that's okay :) First up - I'd say all empathy is cognitive, but relational empathy can definitely be comprised of a more complicated mix of cognitive interactions. Since it's relational it is always related to the person's own experience/memories in some way too. The INTJ would typically employ more sympathy and relational empathy, while the INFJ will employ more mirror empathy and cerebral relation (Ni-Ti). But it gets more complicated when zooming in further, as the cerebral relation of the INTJ will be more Te oriented while the relational empathy of the INFJ will often be powerful and less 'optional', but also less conscious. I may go into more depth on how exactly this applies to specific types at some point :)
Cerebral relation is almost purely Thinking - Ti is internalised whereas Te relation sees the objective value and oneself as externalised values. Sympathy is any T with an overlap with Fi self-perception. Relational empathy is almost purely Fi, with Ti used to connect objective quality of memories together. Mirror empathy is almost entirely Fe, with Ti overlap being used to codify differences between emotional behaviour. Either lens can be used - an N lens would be a big picture view whilst an S lens would be more focused and intense.
Indeed, compassion is the action upon empathy - we can be compassionate based upon all forms of relation :) Te can be used to understand context, and people can still relate to information obtained purely through Te, but it's much more of an external component. Both forms of empathy employ Ti, but neither require an externalised logical codec in creating the feeling itself.
Si empathy is very intense, powerful and specific. It's often concrete and unrelenting, and reflects more upon previous experiences than imagined ones. Ni empathy is more plethoric and requires archetypes to represent a cluster of emotional values. This is more imaginative and often future oriented, and can as such be more anxious.
@@CognitivePersonality ok cool, Thank you for your well thought out answers and of course the video itself. I guess what I am struggling with is the *STJs cognitive ability for empathy. I dont want to look down on them, so I am desperately trying to see the way I have misunderstood them to not be able to tap into empathy. There is an empathy in the way we conduct ourselves with others (the way we speak - the right tone, words, timing etc.). Why would someone who favours Te- Si-Ne-Fi or Si-Te-Fi-Ne seem to appear to struggle with the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes? Why would they struggle with understanding how their actions have a detrimental effect on someone elses emotions? Why would they laugh at emotional angst? Why would they do these things and still consider themselves to be good people?
By this means IJ 's are most probably come in relational empathy as they have fi and ti third and sixth slots.all for IJ 's are not ti or fi polar.which certainly means they are usually come in relational empathy.although I want to learn about infp if you can manage to produce some content on infp I would be very happy
ITJs often have a lot of 'optional' relational empathy, whilst IFJs have an equally optional cerebral relation :) The mirror empathy of IFJs is pretty unavoidable and similar for the cerebral relation of ITJs. I've just uploaded a video on the INFP and ISFP, and will be definitely touching on the type further in future!
@@CognitivePersonality hope you did not take offense, i did not mean my remark slightingly, I myself have a distinctive form of speech that others remark upon so I am inclined to sympathise .
Heh. If you experience empathy in a way not listed in this video definitely let me know - there may be a possible 5th kind that I have yet to discover! On the other hand you may use a small amount of all of them, which might feel like using none intensely enough to call yourself an empath :)
Yeah I mostly use cerebral relation. For some reason I assumed INFJs tend to be more empathic. I also use relational empathy as well... damn. That's totally a weakness for someone who wants to be a therapist... as far as bias goes. Thanks for the response :)
@@savannahb.811 Cerebral Relation in conjuction with Relational Empathy can be a very powerful tool for a therapist, as you have a means of balancing the potentially biased emotional state with hard logic! Mirror Empathy is obviously great but it can make it difficult to detach in the moment - any one style is inferior without support from the other :)
From what I understand... the mind is like a Machine everything in it is supposed to preform a VERY specific task.... the origin of empathy in human evolution, as well as its intended function, are both far crys from what humans use it for.... Empathy is supposed to allow you to understand how your preys emotions (you being a carnivorous creature) so that you can better predict your prey's next action and can be Ready with a counter... Empathy leading to companion and actually CARING..... are basically, MALFUNCTIONS!!! Humans are the only race on earth that has this malfunction in empathy.... not such a nice thing anymore is it???
There could be a nugget of truth that that could be a use of empathy but i don't really buy that is the only reason, seems to me more that we have it to care for our tribe and family, if we felt nothing when they were sad we wouldn't feel the need to fix it as much, and animals have this as well.
@@MetalShag from what I have been told ALL life on earth that has the ability to feel empathy are ALL Predators.... Some have things that could be mistaken for empathy BUT it is NOT empathy.... a Elephant will sit there by a dead friend sometimes for days Hoping it will get up NOT because they Empathize with there dead friend but because the LIVING elephant feels sad.... they have no idea what there dead friend would be feeling otherwise they would know there friend won't get back up
@Nigel power Frans de Waal an expert in apes researched chimps and concluded that all social animals are empathic but that only apes (including humans), dolphins and maybe elephants can understand / reason where the emotion comes from through cognitive empathy. He wrote about it in his book the Ape & the philosopher. *"Cognitive empathy means feeling other people's feelings by the use of logic and intellectual associations with oneself to replicate a similar experience."* I agree with Frans de Waal that: *Empaths rely on emotional (body) channel* Synchronisity, motor mimicry...emotional contagion *Cognitive empaths rely on cognitive channel* Self-other distinction...perspective taking The difference is that empaths, like HSP, believe that they're 1 with their subject; they feel whatever the subject they're observing is feeling, while I understand that this isn't the case. I as a cognitive empath don't feel what my subject is feeling, but I can imagine what he would be feeling if I was in his shoes. An empath [feeler] doesn't feel that there's a barrier between himself and his subject which is kinda egocentric imo. While a cognitive empath [thinker] acknowledges that there is a barrier between himself and the subject he's observing. Because of this he often tests whether his theory is correct, while empaths often see no reason to do so cauz they simply assume that their feeling was correct.
"Empathy is supposed to allow you to understand how your preys emotions (you being a carnivorous creature) so that you can better predict your prey's next action and can be Ready with a counter..." 🖐Humans are omnivores and not a carnivores. Are you suggesting that herbivores cannot have empathy? "Empathy leading to companion and actually CARING..... are basically, MALFUNCTIONS!!!" 🤔I doubt that without empathy a mother would be able to raise her child. "Humans are the only race on earth that has this malfunction in empathy.... not such a nice thing anymore is it???" 😎All animals have empathy. Only apes (including humans), dolphins and maybe elephants have cognitive empathy.
I read that for some people empathy is not empathy but a traumatic coping method developed by people who have grown up with narcissists. Some people can become hyper-attentive to tone and can respond with high anxiety because their friends or family members might "blow up at them" and so they become people-pleasers who try constantly to "diffuse the bomb". But there's no empathy involved in the process, just pure self-preservation.
Fascinating! So a strong emotional response to external emotional stimuli from a completely self-preservative standpoint - I wonder just how many people who identity as empaths experience in fact what is in many ways the reverse of empathy.
If emotional reactions to a situation are entirely born from a fear of consequence as related to one's own comfortable life experience, absent any relation to the emotional state of the other person, this would ironically be closer to sociopathy on the empathy spectrum!
We can’t feel another person’s feelings. This is really important to understand. We can only feel our own feelings.
Empathy is the ability to understand another person’s feelings and respond appropriately. When we share our understanding then what we can say is that our empathy serves to validate another person’s feelings. So in this respect empathy = understanding.
People pleasing others in order to passify or make others happy, is really about controlling others feelings, and you’re quite right to identify this as a coping mechanism. It is not true empathy.
What happens in relationships between narcissists and INFJs, especially if the INFJ is a child growing up with a narcissist parent(s), is that the INFJ will seek to harmonise any disharmony and in doing so begins the process of learning to become a people pleaser (notice this is a learned behaviour).
The more trauma they experience, the less likely they are to accept their own intuition of the reality of the situation. Children are so trusting and it is very easy for a narcissist to control and manipulate the INFJ child into disregarding their own feelings and intuition, and force them to prioritise others feelings and needs instead.
Inevitably, in this type of relationship, the INFJ forms what is called a ‘trauma bond’ with the narcissist, and they remain trapped in that the trauma bond until they learn to listen to their own feelings and intuition. The process of breaking the trauma bond and trusting oneself can take many years during which the INFJ will have to overcome much disruption to their mental health. Healing for the INFJ rests on successfully accepting that their intuition is correct and that their extroverted feelings have been a source of narcissistic supply to a very damaged individual who can never reciprocate in a healthy way.
Once they have achieved this, then the narcissist can no longer control the INFJ and the narcissist will discard the INFJ and let them go. The narcissist can only survive if they can have unlimited access to a narcissistic supply. Once the tap is turned off, the narcissist will look elsewhere for their supply.
I speak from both person experience (I am an INFJ who grew up with narcissistic parents and siblings), and as a retired children’s mental health nurse who witnessed this dynamic many times, and sat in many child protection conferences, and who helped to counsel these children to trust themselves.
The narcissistic/INFJ relationship is the classic ‘narcissist/co-dependent’ relationship.
Erik Thor's Flow Code
Wow, I so relate to this!!
To Ruth, yes empathy is just to relate to one’s own feelings; yet, it has no thing to do with a reaction or taking an action (pleasing or what name u), that is sympathy. Look at an INTJ, they have empathy (Fi) but usually don’t know to to act upon it (Te or Se)
This is not an “either/or”. thing. People who grew up with a Narcissistic parent are often Anxious-Avoidant on the Attachment spectrum. This means they grew up in an environment so chaotic that they could not adopt any one attachment strategy, even a “maladaptive” one. So the strategy became hypervigilance towards fluctuating emotional states and an ability to read in between the lines and see predictive patterns.
The fact that this is an attachment strategy in no way detracts from the person using empathy altruistically.
If you used a skill we correlate with altruism to literally save your life (as attachment to caregivers is a life or death matter for children), you are not being a sociopath.
Also, as children naturally love their parents and have no mechanism to “unlove” them, the hyper vigilant empathy they give their narcissistic parent is not false in any way.
Now I understand why, as an INTP, I steer away from heavy emotional scenes. I feel incredibly moved, and subsequently drained, when I watch a video of a suffering person for example more than many people around me. I can easily burst into tears when I encounter someone going through intense sad emotions even if I don't understand the context. I'm 33 and I still hide my tears when I watch cartoons for God sake.
Thank you for sharing this! I never understood descriptions depicting the INTP as robotic and cold..
Man, that resonates with me. Ive mirrored so many reactions in my lifetime its not even funny. Emotions are hard for us, and it gets even harder when we eventually lose control. People end up mistaking us for extremely closed off, but really, we can actually wear our hearts on our sleeves by complete accident.
This was very interesting. I am an INFP and I relate to both mirror and relational empathy. I think they both are very subjective, though. But yeah, if I see someone crying I CANNOT help but cry myself too... If I see someone close to me being extremely happy I cannot help but be very happy as well. I guess it is a combo of both empathies because I always feel very deeply the emotions that I THINK the other person could be feeling in the situations. And God, when I see an emotional scene in a movie I bowl my eyes out, that's why I prefer watching emotional movies alone. I think many Fi dom users could relate. Anyways, thank you for the video! :)
Yes Fi dominants will tend to have much of both! Cheers for sharing :)
@@CognitivePersonality But will tend to be heavier on the relational empathy than Fe natives, right?
I find that there is a fifth type of empathy which surpasses the cognitive functions, which is energetic empathy. Some people energetically soak up other people’s energy, which often contain emotional states (but can also include thoughts or spiritual states of being) and feel it within themselves. For example, I can be talking to someone who is behaving very cheerfully, but after the conversation I can feel very heavy and depressed, coming out of nowhere. Later I will realize that this person was depressed and struggling deep down. It can manifest in my feeling extremely tired after being around someone who is tired or sad, even if we have a nice “normal” seeming conversation, or very alive and inspired after being around someone who doesn’t even say much. Being energetically empathetic can be challenging to navigate, it took me decades to even understand what this was, you’re more susceptible to picking up on other people’s stuff, but there is also ability to help others (by emitting energetically as well, feelings of love, peace and stability). Anyway, just wanted to add another layer of complexity to your categories… as an INFP I was especially struck by the idea that Fi based empathy is still coming from a particular perspective that may or may not be the other’s. As we heal our shadows we realize what we are projecting on others, even out of compassion. Thank you for this video and helping us see that there are so many valid ways we can show up for them by witnessing and acknowledging them and what they are experiencing - human nature at its best ♥️
I'm an INTJ who does a lot of sympathy and mirror empathy, but very little of the other two. Sometimes I watch a movie or a show with two different people, and have two completely different reactions based on what the other person is feeling. I am usually unaware of my morphed reaction until I consciously observe my own feelings that resulted from the mirror empathy, then figure out what happened.
As far as sympathy goes, I often feel strongly compelled to help people without being very invested into their current state; it is very much like you describe: a discomfort that isn't personal.
Heyyyy just a nice ENTP experience I want to share here! I used to be very much about using sympathy as my only way of relating to other people, which lead me to disregarding people's feelings a lot. I valued the use of Ti over the use of Fe (or in general introverted judging over extroverted judging and thinking over feeling), which caused me to ignore how people were actually feeling because "it didn't make sense to me that they felt like that in the particular situation they were in, since I would never feel like that in their situation." Then at some point, I somehow learned that the current emotional state of the person you're communicating with is actually more important than I thought it was, which caused me to get way better at relating to people through mirror empathy, which then caused me to become a way more pleasant person to talk to, hahah.
It's completely awesome how these things can develop and enhance our own life experience!
I cometely relate to mirroring, which makes me selective about who I want to be around. It also makes me very sensitive to music, literature, drama that is designed to elicit an emotional response.
After experiencing someone's negative emotion, however, later I am all about why they got to that place, what could help them not keep reexperiencing it. I rarely share this with them. In other words I become highly analytical but not a fixer.
This is a fascinating video! I'm INTP, and this explanation and the comments have helped me understand my own relationship with other people's feelings. I'm only comfortable with cerebral relation and relational empathy, while sympathy is unpleasant and mirror empathy is something I only do rarely. It takes a lot for me to feel mirror empathy--it's pretty much limited to seeing parents in movies grieving their children or being scared for their children's lives. That's the only guaranteed thing to make me upset that I can't relate to in some way. Even then, I just tear up, nothing much. Seeing other people saying they relate the most to mirror empathy...sounds miserable to me.
Thanks Benjamin! It's always fascinating to hear where people fit within this 'empathetic spectrum' - cheers for sharing :)
As ENFJ and ‘empath’ I would say: excellent dig deep into empathy.... It’s so important especially in the this time...I would also like to add that empathy as such has so much more layers so much more side to it... books can be written about it💎👌🙏😁
I totally agree!
I think I use predominantly mirror empathy which is very 'in the moment' and dependent on the strong emotions of those I'm with but then when I'm outside of the emotional substrate and alone I'm more cerebral about it and able to rationalize it in order to find solutions to attempt to help the person avoid whatever it was that caused the problem in the first place.
I tend to be very similar! In the moment I alternate mostly between mirror empathy and sympathy, and outside the moment it tends to be a combination of the other (mostly cerebral)!
I've needed this for the past 2 years (longer if we're being honest) and I've just found it now 👁🤚🏾⛔ THANK YOU 10000000000% You may have just saved a life 🙌🏾Relational Empathy can ruin your LIFE 💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
Everything and balance + you're welcome! :D
Firstly, thanks for posting this. I’m glad more people are breaking down the broad concept of empathy. With that said, I’m a bit confused about these specific descriptions and terms.
In psychology, it’s usually split into three groups: cognitive empathy, autonomic empathy, and sympathy. The way those three are defined in psychology are much broader than what’s presented here. For example, cognitive empathy is simply perspective taking. It is the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes and there may not be any emotion involved. If there is emotion, it’s yours and not the other person’s. I feel this is a bit different than what’s presented here because as described in the video, emotion is always involved.
Sympathy is feeling negative emotions for someone’s plight. It doesn’t require perspective taking. The main thing is the negative emotions evoked. I think of this when I encounter animal abuse. Of course, I can’t imagine myself as a non-human in any meaningful way, but seeing animals hurting will bring about those negative emotions.
As for autonomic empathy, I think that’s closest to the mirror empathy you’re referring to. What’s interesting is autonomic empathy may not always include a true feeling of the other person’s emotions. Outwardly, the autonomic system will mimic the other person, but internally, they may or may not feel anything.
The psychology literature I’ve come across over the years indicated people may employ one, two, all three, or in extremely rare cases, none. The mirror empathy sounds like a combination of autonomic empathy and sympathy, the sympathy described sounds like cognitive empathy, and relational empathy sounds like cognitive empathy combined sympathy. I’m not sure where cerebral relation fits at first glance. Can you please explain how the breakdown and terms you use differ from the ones used in psychology?
I just wanted to add that some of the most fascinating descriptions included people that had cognitive and autonomic empathy, but no sympathy. Meaning they could completely manipulate a situation by pushing the right buttons of people and giving a physical response, but they truly felt nothing. I think this combination is more worrying than the detachedness typically associated with psychopathy.
Awesome comment! I'd be happy to address this.
Cerebral relation is essentially a form of cognitive empathy that is by its nature detached from emotion. It is simply a simulation, but is still an understanding of emotion.
Relational empathy is constantly *felt*; it can overalp with cerebral relation, but is bottom-brain originating rather than top-brain.
I like the term 'autonomic empathy' but have not come across before to be honest! Mirror empathy is what you describe in essence, as it is mirror neurone-based and non-internal in origin (absent thought).
Sympathy is as you say simply feelings of pity and the like without necessarily being empathetic, and is more independent of a shared cerebal/emotional experience.
@@CognitivePersonality Thanks for the clarification!
The closest non-scientific term for autonomic empathy I've found is emotional empathy. It's not quite the same because there is still some expectation of emotion attached to it, while autonomic is strictly focused on the involuntary physical response.
I've been interested in this for a while because 1) I'm a biologist whose area of study largely incorporated animal behavior 2) I completely lack autonomic empathy.
As you can imagine, it weirded people out when I was a child (and probably still now) because it's not common and people find comfort in that mirrored response, and I lack it. Professional evaluation proved that I am perfectly "normal," I'm just detached from people's emotions in a direct sense. To engage emotionally, i must access my own emotions in some sense first. I have strong cognitive empathy and sympathy, but they aren't always used together (relational empathy), but they can be.
So far, I have been able to track some of this to genetics. For example, rs53576 is linked to oxytocin receptors. I have the alleles correlated with reduced "empathy." Obviously, it takes more than one SNP to get a full behavioral suite, but it is fascinating looking at the amount of research that still needs to be done on this.
I'm very much a mirror empath. While I do very much possess reflectional empathy, it is no where near as strong as my mirror empathy, I've always struggled with being consumed by other people's emotions, especially their negative emotions.
I related to cerebral relation the least and definitely use relational and mirror the most.
Really interesting! It would be interesting to see what kind of intertype variance there is - for myself I use mirror and cerebral primarily but do find myself dipping into the others :)
@@CognitivePersonality as a fellow INFJ I use cerebral relating and mirror empathy the most followed by relational empathy. I have developed a dislike for sympathy. I find it to be the most superficial and unhelpful style of relating. I think it tends to enforce dysregulation of the nervous system like adding fuel to fire.
It's certainly interesting in my case, because while I can relationally emoathize, and can almost unconciously do it as an 18 year old, it basically came from observing and reacting to emotions in a mirroring way. I really only became so Fi-heavy from observing my parents and mimicking their relational side to a very impulsive degree. I remember looking at Fe descriptions when I identified as INFP, but looking at xNTPs and xNFJs and how they mirror and remembering how they sounded like me and my empathizing style. Hearong ypu go in depth really helps categprize the two, and it kinda explains what I've gone through as a seemingly F(x) activated thinking type.
Very interesting!
thanks for making a video about empathy. if I apply what you said on myself, well, I use more cerebral relation than the rest, although with my closest friends and families id feel mirror empathy but only occasionally. I usually take a piece of emotion, analyzing it, label it, react accordingly (possibly by mirroring + slightly exaggerating the other party's behavior) and if needed id use the result to stabilize a situation, build an initial relation. some call this tactical empathy. I'm surprisingly calm in intense situation, I had never had an argument with anyone so far, no wonder I work in the field of persuasion.most people find me friendly, good at motivating, talking to me is relaxing even therapeutic. however, im pretty detached, it's lonely having little empathy. I have very few friends, every period of my life I have a best one, then I tend to move on from them, afterwords I mostly feel indifferent. I'm an ENTP, this is probably just my particular case. I seldom leave comments after watching video on TH-cam, but I think yours are well-made and informative. more importantly I think you wouldn't simply label me as a sociopath (I don't feel particularly bad about that term just it's still inconclusive).
Yes mirror empathy can definitely be used healthily alongside cerebral relation, even if only to a small degree!
Really glad you enjoyed the video! It's likely you aren't a sociopath, but I agree the term is misleading :)
This was a really clear and concise breakdown. I am in total agreement that a balanced mixture of the intellectual and the mirroring is the best way. As a therapist, I think I would not be effective if I projected my own feelings onto my client and got more worked up about their problems than they themselves were. Nor would I be effective if I stayed purely intellectual.
I am always learning and growing in how to better weave and balance the types. However, I notice the way I actually experience empathy is not included
in this video, or else it is but maybe certain words or phrases threw me off.
Recently I discovered- through researching neuroscience and Polyvagal Theory (as well as getting more information about my time in Utero, my Birth and first year of life) that I am very affected and programmed by preverbal trauma.
One big distinction in my experience of empathy is that your language suggested that the other types of empathy involved conscious choice. Words like we “take on”, or “feel obligated” to experience another’s emotions.
I personally have little conscious control to either feel, or not to feel empathy, unless I am alone, and when alone, like you, it is a purely intellectual activity.
The way I feel empathy has no verbal component, so I could not label what “emotion” another person is feeling or what I am feeling.
Since it is non-verbal, no words truly convey it, but the closest I could come is saying “I feel the color they feel, I feel the movement within them as if it is in me, I feel myself contract if they contract and expand if they expand”.
Sometimes people hear this as a really silly new age thing. Some people think I have a psychic ability.
Nope. I’m describing a baby. A baby has not developed the ability to “choose” to go into a state of empathy. A baby doesn’t have words for emotions and cannot separate external and internal stimuli, and can’t separate stimuli or senses into categories. I think this kind of empathy has to do with the earliest stages of brain development. And like the others, it is not any better or worse and has strengths and weaknesses.
Ahh indeed, divergent relational empathy (Fi authority) would actually be more a subconscious operation than my convergent description in the video!
Thank you, this is very helpful! I’m infp and highly value both forms of empathy. But socializing is so tiring because, even though I love people and spending time with them, I’m always working. If I don’t feel that the time I spent with them was productive in connecting and helping them emotionally, I feel like I wasted time and energy. I think it would be good to learn to detach a bit.
I find that I have experienced all of the types described. When I was young I had a difficult time with mirror empathy because I would suddenly be overwhelmed with other peoples emotions. Like if a friend was upset, then a little while later I am upset. Now I can see that I was just better at keeping my emotions to myself but then exploding.
That's a sign of healthy empathy!
Hello! I think I'm trying to use the cerebral relation but sometimes I use other types uncontiously. When I feel mirror empathy it's the most difficult situation because I can't understand why a person feels like that and why I feel the same way. I feel confused and I can't communicate in an optimal way. Now I'll try to be more conscious and keep my emotional reactions under control. Thank you, Harry.
Yes it's very hard to distance yourself when engaging Mirror Empathy - to use Relational Empathy in its place you often need to withdraw from the social situation for a little while :)
Exactly - sometimes Cerebral Relation is optimal for acquiring a more objective overview of the situation, in which case other forms may inhibit its effectiveness.
Very interesting video. I personally find myself doing all 4, although I probably end up switching into the safety of cerebral relation slightly more often than the other 3.
Thank you - this sounds very similar to myself! I dip into all four, particularly mirror empathy, but also spend the most time employing cerebral relation, which does indeed feel comparatively safer!
You've done it again, man-- pristine level of precision in clearing up some murky terminology! Thank you, and I look forward to learning more from you! (Any links to buying the CPT book in pdf form, yet?)
Hey man - thanks!
Thanks to my friend Erik I've almost finished my online store, so I'll send you an email with the link real soon :)
The correlation between empathy & sympathy, which explains the 3 types of empathy.
empathy = understanding others through their perspective
sympathy = understanding their situation through your own perspective
the 3 types of empathy:
1) Emotional Empathy = understanding the specific emotions of the other person
2) Cognitive Empathy = understanding the thoughts of the other person
3) Compassionate Empathy = is acting on what you've heard of the other person's emotion (emotional empathy) + what you've heard of what the other person was thinking (cognitive empathy) and turn it into action (give a hug, offer words of comfort etc.)
Source: th-cam.com/video/WNbvxism9_k/w-d-xo.html
Besides Compassionate Empathy a person can also abuse emotional empathy & cognitive empathy like the Dark Triad and the Dark Empath.
The Dark Triad
The dark triad is a psychological theory of personality, first published by Delroy L. Paulhus and Kevin M. Williams in 2002, that describes three notably offensive, but non-pathological personality types: Machiavellianism, sub-clinical narcissism, and sub-clinical psychopathy.
Each of these personality types is called dark because each is considered to contain malevolent qualities.
All three dark triad traits are conceptually distinct although empirical evidence shows them to be overlapping. They are associated with a callous-manipulative interpersonal style.
Narcissism is characterized by grandiosity, pride, egotism, and a lack of empathy.
Machiavellianism is characterized by manipulation and exploitation of others, an absence of morality, lack of emotion, and a higher level of self-interest.
Psychopathy is characterized by continuous antisocial behavior, impulsivity, selfishness, callous and unemotional traits (CU), and remorselessness.
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad
The Dark Empath
New research identifies people high in both empathy and darkness (aka Dark Triad).
It may seem that people with elevated Dark Triad traits are not empathic, but it isn't so simple. In a basic sense, empathy serves people higher in dark traits. Dark traits may be a "necessary evil", arguably important for group survival at critical times. Empathy, while serving altruism, is also a tool for the Machiavellian mind, which needs good “intel” for appraising, and potentially taking advantage of, others.
Source: www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/experimentations/202008/introducing-the-dark-empath-0
Hello Harry! I discovered your channel recently on the recommendation of Javi, from the "Personal Analysis" channel, and I did a marathon of your videos. You know I'm not very good at talking about things about myself, but for example, when someone's eyes look like they've cut onions, I feel like they're burning too, or in movies like Don't Breathe, I find myself holding my breath to the point where which is difficult for me to see. What kind of empathy would that be? Needless to say, your content is excellent!
Thank you for that video. Very interesting indeed. I am a narcissistic abuse survivor currently learning empathy and trusting myself, my intuition. It was interesting to see the difference between sympathy and empathy. I realise I confused the two. And yes, as you say in your video, there was repression and I was not supposed to be emotional or weak as a child. Showing emotions was considered a weakness and shame. Hence, poor empathy now if any. But I am working on it!
Alright, I've conducted an assessment, and come to admit some things about myself. You're right - I _do_ (sometimes) mirror what others are going through. There's more to my understanding of it which I can't articulate without another long-winded blog post, so I'll leave it there for now.
Thanks for the video exploring this topic. It's definitely worthwhile, especially since some of us are accused of being unfeeling tinmen, which simply isn't true.
Now I'm curious to watch your other video and find out who the ENTP in LOTR is!
Thanks Alex! I appreciate the self-assessment and open mind :)
I'm going to continue referencing back to this video whenever I touch on empathy as I do feel it's important to illustrate the different ways of being empathetic.
I do indeed have an ENTP in my LOTR video :D
Excellent presentation! Thanks👍
Glad you liked it!
For me personally, I seem most at home in mirror empathy, or at least that seem to be the default. This is more when I can actually see the person (video or in person). However, my secondary “natural” is cerebral relation. The other two seem to need a bit more of a force to fall into. I can and have done them but it’s more of a conscious effort to get there.
Yes, I would consider myself similar!
Interesting, I’ve always defined Sympathy as the action and empathy as the perception, with emotive and cerebral forms of both. Between Enneagram 5 freezing up defence and T avoidance of emotional display I very bad a sympathy, even If I desperately want to help people. I’m great for giving people advice and helping them see the world in a different way. Which is course the NeTi speciality. As for empathy I do use a lot of relational empathy whenever I see some sort of injustice that I also experienced. The closer to home the more it triggers. I also use quite a bit of mirror empathy in a controlled way to try and synchronise myself in 1 on 1 conversations with people I care about. Then outside the spectrum of the topic is my “emotional telepathy” where I do actually feel the emotions of others in real time. (Which used to freak people out till I got a better understanding of human nature and how much normal people can handle. People seem to be at least subconsciously aware that I’m reading what’s going on in their heads).
In my experience empathy tends to trigger a little more action than sympathy owing to its limbic origin.
Cheers for this comment!
@@CognitivePersonality a paralyzing fear response is definitely lymbic :)
Thank you, well done!
Thanks for your comment!
This is such a wonderful deep dive into the forms of empathy! Brought so much clarity to some of my musings!
Thanks Grace - I'd been wanting to make this one for a while and now it's finally online I'll probably end up linking it everytime I mention empathy!
relational empathy as described here is just sympathy imo (a stronger version of what you describe as sympathy it seems to me); mirror empathy is the definition of empathy that distinguishes it from sympathy. i feel like everyone understood these words in this way 20 years ago, but that the difference is being lost as we begin to conflate sympathy and empathy
Thanks for the great comment!
As empathy can be defined as feeling the emotions of other people, it is necessary to distinguish between the two ways this can occur. Relational Empathy is very much a form of empathy as the person is through relation feeling the emotions of the other.
This needs to be seperate from the concept of Sympathy because the emotions involved are completely different - Sympathy is detached and only relates to the other in an abstract manner. Relational Empathy literally manifests an approximation of another person's emotional state within the self.
This video really helped understand empathy. It took a while for it to click but I talk my journey to be empathetic on my TH-cam channel. I’m not there yet but I have a long way to go
Really great to hear :)
Harry-- what are your thoughts on the Dave & Shan Powers System of "Objective Personality"?
I like Dave and Shannon a lot!
While I think we do have some overlap between our systems (such as the twin auxiliary theory) CPT departs from such things as:
Demon/Saviour Functions
Masculine/Feminine Functions
Fixed Subtype
Seperate Functions
In a nutshell CPT is a hyper-fluid theory that sees cognition as something given to fluctuation, whereas OPT seeks to categorise types and subtypes in a much more absolute manner.
Each system is constructed upon case studies so in that regard we have a similar research-base approach, and like many systems we have agreements in some areas and disagreements in others.
I do find CPT methodology leads to differing conclusions of what type and functions are in the first place, in comparison to OPT, so I'm not sure the extent to which our systems are compatible :)
how would one distinguish between whether they're using relational or mirror empathy? If relational empathy is interpreting what the other person should be feeling based on your own experiences, wouldn't it sometimes be difficult to tell whether you're just imagining it or actually picking up on their emotions based on behavior?
Relational goes first to the head to imagine yourself in their position. Mirror goes straight to the heart.
So I'd say relational empathy is projecting your own trauma onto someone else, who may or may not have similar trauma.
Why do people seem to think intjs are not empathetic... I think we can be extremely empathetic.. I mean they might be somewhat able to develope a lack of empathy, but I don't think that's inherent. Actually I think we are more likely to be empathetic.. I feel like intjs are usually more likely to be pretty consistently frustrated and annoyed out of this empathy.. I think alot of types similar to intjs are honestly often this way.. (shhh I'm trying to make people nicer.)
Yes, I hear you!
hmm ILI here, wondering if we too experience mirror empathy (even with Fe vulnerable). I pick up on the emotional attitude of a person easily so I'm able to mimic it. For example, if someone made a joke but I didn't hear it, when people begin laughing I'd also laugh not because it was funny (i didn't hear it) but because people are laughing and it makes me feel the same way
For sure, but Fe here is less observed so mirror empathy may be more unconscious than that more relational.
Hey Harry, I've recently been ruminating on the connection between mirror/relational empathy and unconscious bias, e.g. first impressions which require a quick cognitive or emotional response to a person or situation -wondering if this is something that interests you too?
Oh yes, in this sense empathy can be a double edged sword - it tends to operate reflexively, and can be difficult to recontextualise thereafter. In some senses a conscious relational process can at least make us aware of such biases!
Generally mirror empathy operates on face value, and relational empathy can very much over or underestimate the way a person is feeling. Definitely an interesting topic!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It's such an interesting topic and bizarre that we make so many unconscious and conscious snap judgements every day... But, that's its own psychological rabbit hole with social/cultural ramifications around equality and diversity etc. Anyway, really liked this video - would love to see more like it in the future :)
Thankyou!
Thank YOU!
What should one call a Te-Fe, I relay on those when making art; looking up exact words and searching about feelings. 😑 it’s so tricky to keep Fi out and usually results in making completely different pieces.
Very interesting!
@@CognitivePersonality I assure you, at a time I had to depect Phonophobia, but couldn't figure out a disturbing shapes pattern nor a noise effect that would annoy every veiwer, i did what I could (Te wise), and Se+Fi (fake Fe) ,to check if it worked, I asked a Fe dom about the image, they said it was ''subtly creepy'', I wish to find more about music techniques that dierectly affect the general feeling dimantion, without waiting for a person's Fi approval.
Is contagious laughter and 'reading the room' good examples of mirror empathy?
Absolutely!
Nice video 🌻
Thank you! :)
I just don't know if I feel empathy.
When I get into arguments, with people I love or not, I have great difficulties controlling my anger. It feels like they've tried to hurt me, be that whether they've successfully done so or not, and I hurt them worse. I don't even feel bad afterwards - I just feel like they deserve it but I feel like I don't want to feel that way if it's not normal.
I've never lost anyone close to me, except animals which broke my heart but it was because I lost them not because they lost their life and I've been told that's not normal. When someone tells me they've lost someone, I understand that I wouldn't want to lose someone but I also don't feel for them. I mean I push everyone away automatically and I just don't know hwo they are feeling - I verbally empathise with them but I'm not sure I feel any emotional empathy.
I am an emotional person, for myself I think. I mean I've been doing a lot of analysing, I'm not sure if I felt empathy as a child. I want to work on myself because I push everyone away but it's so difficult when you don't know what's wrong.
Interesting! In some ways relational empathy requires us to have a memory relating to another person's position - we look at a person's dire straits, which triggers a memory, which allows us to feel the emotions of another.
@@CognitivePersonality thank you for responding. Do you have any advice for me? I think this lock down has made me lose perception of myself and I'm not sure even about what I feel.
If mirror empathy expresses itself in the moment, and if it is indeed related to Fe, I'm confused : does that mean that Fe users are prone to misunderstanding people's emotions if they are not physically present? Thanks for the great video, greetings from France.
Not at all - firstly, all types use all functions, just in different ways, so an Fe user can still access other forms of relation :)
Furthermore, Mirror Empathatic experiences are stored as memories which can be reflected upon - as an INFJ, to use myself as an example, I reflect upon emotionally charged experiences to understand the mechanisms behind those emotions on a Cerebral Relational level.
@@CognitivePersonality Oh! So you are not saying that experiencing one or the other form of empathy is a mean of clarifying one's type then, are you?
@@kcl7864 Not as a hard and fast rule, no, but Fe users will employ more Mirror Empath while Fi users will employ more Relational Empathy - just because a type employs more of one style than another it doesn't mean it doesn't use any other form of empathy :)
Fe users use Fi, Te users use Ti, etc. With CPT I'm hoping to demonstrate how every type uses every function, and along these lines ever type uses every empathy - just because one function, or even form of relation, is used more it doesn't mean the others are not used at all.
So you can very much apply this video to type, but just like with cognitive functions it isn't as simple as 'using one and not the other'. Hope that clarifies!
@@CognitivePersonality Well, I do understand what you mean - thank you for your thorough replies btw- so clarified it is! I'll need to look up what you mean by CPT, I suppose it's mentionned in your previous videos. And I'll stay tuned for the upcoming ones!!! :D
@@kcl7864 Thanks so much, I look forward to continued interactions!
So in light of your video of INTJ vs INFJ and then this one here:
Is another name for relational empathy cognitive empathy?
Also, given that it appears as if INFJs are tapping into relational empathy (fi critic and Ti) and mirror empathy (fe and Ti) do you still feel as if INTJs are more empathetic than INFJs. If so how?
Also you highlight how cognitive functions at work give birth to different experiences of empathy but is this the only way to tap into empathy? in other words, if you don't utilize these cognitive functions is it impossible for you to feel their respective types of empathy?
Also how does Te help with empathy or is it only used for cerebral relation?
Also, we know that we can be empathetic with someone and not exercise compassion. Meaning not be compassionate with our empathy or even use empathy to know how to make someone suffer more. Is their cognitive function that would represent compassion or is that separate from cognitive functions?
Also how do you think si and ni act to strengthen or weaken ones tapping into empathy?
A lot of great questions! I'll answer them in bits if that's okay :)
First up - I'd say all empathy is cognitive, but relational empathy can definitely be comprised of a more complicated mix of cognitive interactions. Since it's relational it is always related to the person's own experience/memories in some way too.
The INTJ would typically employ more sympathy and relational empathy, while the INFJ will employ more mirror empathy and cerebral relation (Ni-Ti). But it gets more complicated when zooming in further, as the cerebral relation of the INTJ will be more Te oriented while the relational empathy of the INFJ will often be powerful and less 'optional', but also less conscious. I may go into more depth on how exactly this applies to specific types at some point :)
Cerebral relation is almost purely Thinking - Ti is internalised whereas Te relation sees the objective value and oneself as externalised values.
Sympathy is any T with an overlap with Fi self-perception.
Relational empathy is almost purely Fi, with Ti used to connect objective quality of memories together.
Mirror empathy is almost entirely Fe, with Ti overlap being used to codify differences between emotional behaviour.
Either lens can be used - an N lens would be a big picture view whilst an S lens would be more focused and intense.
Indeed, compassion is the action upon empathy - we can be compassionate based upon all forms of relation :)
Te can be used to understand context, and people can still relate to information obtained purely through Te, but it's much more of an external component. Both forms of empathy employ Ti, but neither require an externalised logical codec in creating the feeling itself.
Si empathy is very intense, powerful and specific. It's often concrete and unrelenting, and reflects more upon previous experiences than imagined ones.
Ni empathy is more plethoric and requires archetypes to represent a cluster of emotional values. This is more imaginative and often future oriented, and can as such be more anxious.
@@CognitivePersonality ok cool,
Thank you for your well thought out answers and of course the video itself.
I guess what I am struggling with is the *STJs cognitive ability for empathy. I dont want to look down on them, so I am desperately trying to see the way I have misunderstood them to not be able to tap into empathy.
There is an empathy in the way we conduct ourselves with others (the way we speak - the right tone, words, timing etc.). Why would someone who favours Te- Si-Ne-Fi or Si-Te-Fi-Ne seem to appear to struggle with the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes? Why would they struggle with understanding how their actions have a detrimental effect on someone elses emotions? Why would they laugh at emotional angst? Why would they do these things and still consider themselves to be good people?
By this means IJ 's are most probably come in relational empathy as they have fi and ti third and sixth slots.all for IJ 's are not ti or fi polar.which certainly means they are usually come in relational empathy.although I want to learn about infp if you can manage to produce some content on infp I would be very happy
ITJs often have a lot of 'optional' relational empathy, whilst IFJs have an equally optional cerebral relation :)
The mirror empathy of IFJs is pretty unavoidable and similar for the cerebral relation of ITJs.
I've just uploaded a video on the INFP and ISFP, and will be definitely touching on the type further in future!
why do you pronounce "cerebral" that way?
Hah XD
Honestly? It's just how I felt like pronouncing it at the time!
Ce-He-bral, Ce-he-bral, Ce-he-bral, Hehehe
Hahaha I definitely have my own way of (mis)saying this word!
@@CognitivePersonality hope you did not take offense, i did not mean my remark slightingly, I myself have a distinctive form of speech that others remark upon so I am inclined to sympathise .
@@jackiekittie6135 Not at all :D
But thank you!
What the hell am I even an empath???
Heh. If you experience empathy in a way not listed in this video definitely let me know - there may be a possible 5th kind that I have yet to discover!
On the other hand you may use a small amount of all of them, which might feel like using none intensely enough to call yourself an empath :)
Yeah I mostly use cerebral relation. For some reason I assumed INFJs tend to be more empathic. I also use relational empathy as well... damn. That's totally a weakness for someone who wants to be a therapist... as far as bias goes. Thanks for the response :)
@@savannahb.811 Cerebral Relation in conjuction with Relational Empathy can be a very powerful tool for a therapist, as you have a means of balancing the potentially biased emotional state with hard logic!
Mirror Empathy is obviously great but it can make it difficult to detach in the moment - any one style is inferior without support from the other :)
From what I understand... the mind is like a Machine everything in it is supposed to preform a VERY specific task.... the origin of empathy in human evolution, as well as its intended function, are both far crys from what humans use it for....
Empathy is supposed to allow you to understand how your preys emotions (you being a carnivorous creature) so that you can better predict your prey's next action and can be Ready with a counter...
Empathy leading to companion and actually CARING..... are basically, MALFUNCTIONS!!!
Humans are the only race on earth that has this malfunction in empathy.... not such a nice thing anymore is it???
There could be a nugget of truth that that could be a use of empathy but i don't really buy that is the only reason, seems to me more that we have it to care for our tribe and family, if we felt nothing when they were sad we wouldn't feel the need to fix it as much, and animals have this as well.
@@MetalShag from what I have been told ALL life on earth that has the ability to feel empathy are ALL Predators....
Some have things that could be mistaken for empathy BUT it is NOT empathy.... a Elephant will sit there by a dead friend sometimes for days Hoping it will get up NOT because they Empathize with there dead friend but because the LIVING elephant feels sad.... they have no idea what there dead friend would be feeling otherwise they would know there friend won't get back up
@Nigel power
Frans de Waal an expert in apes researched chimps and concluded that all social animals are empathic but that only apes (including humans), dolphins and maybe elephants can understand / reason where the emotion comes from through cognitive empathy.
He wrote about it in his book the Ape & the philosopher.
*"Cognitive empathy means feeling other people's feelings by the use of logic and intellectual associations with oneself to replicate a similar experience."*
I agree with Frans de Waal that:
*Empaths rely on emotional (body) channel*
Synchronisity, motor mimicry...emotional contagion
*Cognitive empaths rely on cognitive channel*
Self-other distinction...perspective taking
The difference is that empaths, like HSP, believe that they're 1 with their subject; they feel whatever the subject they're observing is feeling, while I understand that this isn't the case. I as a cognitive empath don't feel what my subject is feeling, but I can imagine what he would be feeling if I was in his shoes.
An empath [feeler] doesn't feel that there's a barrier between himself and his subject which is kinda egocentric imo.
While a cognitive empath [thinker] acknowledges that there is a barrier between himself and the subject he's observing. Because of this he often tests whether his theory is correct, while empaths often see no reason to do so cauz they simply assume that their feeling was correct.
"Empathy is supposed to allow you to understand how your preys emotions (you being a carnivorous creature) so that you can better predict your prey's next action and can be Ready with a counter..."
🖐Humans are omnivores and not a carnivores.
Are you suggesting that herbivores cannot have empathy?
"Empathy leading to companion and actually CARING..... are basically, MALFUNCTIONS!!!"
🤔I doubt that without empathy a mother would be able to raise her child.
"Humans are the only race on earth that has this malfunction in empathy.... not such a nice thing anymore is it???"
😎All animals have empathy.
Only apes (including humans), dolphins and maybe elephants have cognitive empathy.