Good advice. I'd add one more point - going up is usually easier than going down, and most mountain accidents happen on the descent. If planning an out-and-back route, keep this in mind and don't climb up anything that you can't confidently climb down.
dude I say this all the time. ive gotten into some very bad situations because I just like climbing but didnt account for how I'd get down... I made it down but it is going up is way easier than going down. especially when the holds you climbed up were pulled out
This have to be said more and more often haha.. Got stock today. REMEMBER the key holds and the way you went up by looking down often during the climb to see and imagine what it will be like when going down. Spoting something unusual that will helps on the way down.. Even try to downclimb a section that you think is at your limit before committing fully to the move upwards. Anyhow still on the emotions haha have fun out there! :) And stay safe.
yup, and it can go the opposite way too, sometimes people downclimb something, get cliffed out below, and can make one of the moves necessary to climb back out. Either way, try to make sure your route is reversible just in case.
Thank you for a well-thought-out summary. I would note at time 1:52, the definition of Class 4 is "Simple climbing, with exposure. A rope is often used. Natural protection can be easily found. Falls may well be fatal." For places like the Hourglass on Little Bear, and Ellingwood Ridge on La Plata Peak, a rope is often used for this Class 4 terrain.
Hey Roger. Thanks for providing that definition, as well. I've seen it several places and probably should have included it. I just find that - like the 5th class rating system - even something like that is very subjective. People die from falls on class 3 all the time (think Long's Peak). 3rd class climbs in California (think the Mountaineer's Route on Whitney) would likely be classified 4th class in Colorado (The Mountaineer's Route has a slab scramble low on the approach that puts you above tree tops where a fall could be really bad). And something that uses natural protection (like the Hour Glass on Little Bear with the slung boulder on top) actually has very few potential placements for natural protection if you were putting the rope up on lead rather than scrambling to the top unprotected and then placing the rope for the descent - and for future climbers). So, I think providing multiple perspectives is probably the right way to go, and something I should have added in - as you suggest. Thanks for watching and providing that definition!
I’ve Done a handful of class 3 and a couple of class 4 hikes out in The Sierra Nevadas. It’s such a rush. Down climbing tho is definitely something I need to work on though. These are great tips! Thanks for sharing
@Deadringer, we don't do many couloirs in dry conditions in Colorado - to loose. But reading about it, I guess some people do that route in both snow and dry conditions. Which (or both) have you done? I actually much prefer snow and ice climbing.
@@ShortGuysBetaWorks I hike/climb Couloirs in both conditions. I too prefer when there’s snow, but a dry climb up a dry chute or couloir makes for an miserably fun day haha. No need to carry a heavy pack full of winter gear
I have one additional tip I've told my family many times. It's much safer to downclimb face-in rather than face-out. Most people feel more comfortable facing-out but it puts you in a much more vulnerable position to begin a tumbling fall that you can't control. If you are face-in, it puts you in a better position to catch yourself before you can gain to much speed from a slip. It also puts you in a better position to identify foot holds that are below you. Lastly, stepping on a small foothold with your toes is more balanced than on your heals.
That's a good point. I would agree that you should face-in when it feels more comfortable, as you are in a more natural position to use the hand and foot holds in a biomechanically sound way, as you point out. That being said, on lower-angled terrain, facing in can actually make it harder to see your feet. The steeper it is, the easier it is to see those feet. Our feet support most of our weight, so you are right to point out the importance. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I would agree that face-in is generally safer as long as you can spy the holds.
@@ShortGuysBetaWorks I would love to try longs via the key hole, sawtooth, or Kelso ridge. But hoping to gain some more insight about proper route finding and knowing proper holds other than 3 points of contact. Trying to do research and study up!
@@kylebeyerlein3335 I think this comes down to two things: 1) how to identify choss www.climbing.com/skills/choss-rock/; 2) what kinds of grips and foot placements are useful www.onsightbuilt.com/training-content/types-of-rock-climbing-holds Combining those two things is "what do I grip/stand on" and "how do I grip/stand on it." Hope this helps get you started. But once you go down the proper rock climbing rabbit hole, there is A LOT more there.
As someone who turned several class 3+ 14er “scrambles” into low class 5 climbs back in the day, I cannot emphasize enough the advice to be constantly checking that you are still on the route you intended to climb. Especially if you are comfortable with “real”rock climbing, it can be very easy to get off route and find yourself doing “fun” stuff that you eventually realize is not the route and for which you probably should be roped up. These days there is so much beta available, this should never happen to someone who is prepared and paying attention.
Off route can definitely end up with us being on terrain that is near our climbing ability limit pretty easily. Really important point. Thanks for watching and sharing! 🙏
On shoes I recently bought a pair of Bellville ultralight combat boots. They are breathable, very very light, provide great ankle support and the souls must grab and mold onto everything. I have 400+ miles in these boots already with no broken stitches, no hot spots blisters or break in time. Get yourself some combat boots if you're looking to save money. I can also comfortably run my crampons on them.
I have no doubt that these are good for many things, and footwear largely comes down to personal preference, but I think it's good to call out tradeoffs in all things. These probably grip really well (I take your word for it), they definitely can support the weight of packing in gear. I imagine they have to be super durable. The ankle support is going to be good, as you point out. What are the downsides? Over 20oz per boot is nearly twice as heavy as the lighter approach shoes. The high ankle will likely be a problem on cracks, where ankle mobility is super important. Thanks for calling these out as an option!
A mystery to me is what distinquishes a class 3 from a class 4. Class three seems to be quite common but class 4 seems to be quite rare. I see videos of routes described as class 3 which look very demanding and potentially fatal.
I agree that class 4 is the mystery. The common definition is about the consequences of a fall being greater but the climbing being low angle or blocky and "easy." What is easy is pretty subjective. It is also hard to judge the consequences of a thing that (hopefully) doesn't happen. In my mind, I think when we have to go beyond being specific about handholds but now also need to be precise with our feet, we may have ventured from 3 into 4 terrain. That is at least something I can judge without having to take a fall to determine the terrain grade 😂
My instructor defined it like this; 3rd class you start using a hand in places for balance. 4th class you are using both hands, and actually using your arms to help pull yourself up
@@nakulah class 2 is what you are describing as class3. Class 3 can be as hard technically as class 4 but the consequence of a fall is usually not fatal (You might break a bone but typically won't die) happy scrambling
I can understand the confusion. But once you have done some mountaineering on class 4, the difference becomes obvious. Plus there is always borderline stuff (class 2-3 or class 3-4). Class 3 is that transition from class 2 where hands used in climbing are necessary to make progress. Class 4 is basically class 3 on steroids. The exposure becomes significantly more dangerous. But equally important is that the rock scrambling becomes more challenging. Hands and footholds are more challenging. There is plenty of class 3 with bad exposure that remains class 3 because there are fat easy foot and hand positions, so exposure alone does not define class 4. Similarly, a really hard climbing problem is not class 4 if there is no exposure. There can also be a fuzzy line between class 4 and a 5.0 climb. Class 4 is sometimes roped, but I have done most such climbing without a rope. It is a function of climbing skill and proper boots. I have sometimes switched from mountaineering boots to climbing boots high on a mountain for the hard parts. It made a massive difference. A rope is really useful for rapelling down nasty class 4 stuff. Much more pleasant than downclimbing it.
Class 4 is class 3( hands and feet ) where you are unsure of the above situation and have rope backup . Much of what i see on class 4 use is very poor rope work / protection and is probable just a unsafe as you imagined on class 3 moves . Practice 5th class moves in the gym and on various types of rock and especially practice placing pro and correct rope work .
@@doug5yuiop I personally feel that smart rope work can be fast and is warranted on some class 4 and lower-class-five sections. I did an entire series on that type of rope work: th-cam.com/play/PLQQbFscw1n0JBhZPWRlsHFNZwjhw0XI9h.html&si=No1Vx8U49IoA26Wm ...but most people do not. There is a tradeoff between speed and the "feeling of freedom" that ropeless movement provides. In fact, where I live, there are many, many people who do lower-class-5 (up to around 5.5 or 5.6) without a rope. And these are just regular people, not people named Alex Hannold 😉 Risk tolerance is personal and part of why the distinctions between class 3 and 4 are so hard to determine. Hopefully that other playlist I shared gets more at what you have in mind.
@@ShortGuysBetaWorks Thanks, that’s an interesting series. In Oregon several of the highest peaks are class 4 at the top. Yes, people often do them without rope, but people sometimes are injured or worse. It’s a little ambiguous how to go about tackling the class 4.
Use of hands are necessary in order to make progress climbing. Class 2 rock scrambles can also use hands for balance or an aide, but not strictly necessary to make progress. You also get borderline terrain where hands are used somewhat, and some call it class 2-3. Once you have some experience, these distinctions start to become obvious. More important is to develop basic rock climbing skills for all sorts of rock situations, and also the skill to read rock so as to see the easier lines up the rock (routefinding). The classifications matter when you are planning your climb so that you are prepared for what you will see.
I can't say there is one. It is really dependent upon available strength and cardiovascular fitness. My Dad had done class threes as a younger man, but then stopped for many many years. He just went on one at age 74. Could he have done it without prior experience? Yeah, probably.
I’m 45 and until last year haven’t done a proper class 3 pitch since my mid- to late teens. I’m contemplating a serious class 3 route up a high sierra 14er this summer (e.g., Sill, Whitney mountaineer’s route). I’m a very involved father of a first grader with a 50-60+ hour / week job in finance. As such, if I follow through, I will focus my preparation on fitness / technique in the costal ranges and a shakedown or two in Desolation Wilderness (eg, Talac or Pyramid) and outsource route planning and gear checklists for the class 3 attempt at a 14er to professional guides. I got to my advanced age being humble about what I don’t know in high consequence situations!
Risk professionals (often engineers) began popularizing "probability = risk x consequence" to get people to stop focusing on only the high consequence things and also look at the low consequence but highly probable things. E.g. "Don't just look at the nuclear reactor melting down, also look at the problem of fuel waste breaking containment after being transported and deposited."
www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2011/08/route.html Making distinctions in pronunciation across regional dialects is pretty common in (now) globalized English.
Climbers will often use the term "scrambling" for climbs that either don't use a rope or use it in a very limited way that doesn't involve anchor-to-anchor, pitched-out climbing. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambling
![Scrambling Basics that Every Hiker Should Know [Tips & Techniques]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CLFSD3U1wAU/mqdefault.jpg)
Good advice. I'd add one more point - going up is usually easier than going down, and most mountain accidents happen on the descent. If planning an out-and-back route, keep this in mind and don't climb up anything that you can't confidently climb down.
Very solid point, and definitely worth mentioning 🙏💪
dude I say this all the time. ive gotten into some very bad situations because I just like climbing but didnt account for how I'd get down... I made it down but it is going up is way easier than going down. especially when the holds you climbed up were pulled out
This have to be said more and more often haha.. Got stock today.
REMEMBER the key holds and the way you went up by looking down often during the climb to see and imagine what it will be like when going down.
Spoting something unusual that will helps on the way down.. Even try to downclimb a section that you think is at your limit before committing fully to the move upwards.
Anyhow still on the emotions haha have fun out there! :) And stay safe.
yup, and it can go the opposite way too, sometimes people downclimb something, get cliffed out below, and can make one of the moves necessary to climb back out. Either way, try to make sure your route is reversible just in case.
That's my crestone peak trip report. That's hilarious!!! The one with the red prius
A good trip report deserves some exposure 👍 Nice job on that!
Thank you for a well-thought-out summary. I would note at time 1:52, the definition of Class 4 is "Simple climbing, with exposure. A rope is often used. Natural protection can be easily found. Falls may well be fatal." For places like the Hourglass on Little Bear, and Ellingwood Ridge on La Plata Peak, a rope is often used for this Class 4 terrain.
Hey Roger. Thanks for providing that definition, as well. I've seen it several places and probably should have included it. I just find that - like the 5th class rating system - even something like that is very subjective. People die from falls on class 3 all the time (think Long's Peak). 3rd class climbs in California (think the Mountaineer's Route on Whitney) would likely be classified 4th class in Colorado (The Mountaineer's Route has a slab scramble low on the approach that puts you above tree tops where a fall could be really bad). And something that uses natural protection (like the Hour Glass on Little Bear with the slung boulder on top) actually has very few potential placements for natural protection if you were putting the rope up on lead rather than scrambling to the top unprotected and then placing the rope for the descent - and for future climbers). So, I think providing multiple perspectives is probably the right way to go, and something I should have added in - as you suggest. Thanks for watching and providing that definition!
I’ve Done a handful of class 3 and a couple of class 4 hikes out in The Sierra Nevadas. It’s such a rush. Down climbing tho is definitely something I need to work on though. These are great tips! Thanks for sharing
Glad you enjoyed the video. And I would agree that down-climbing is far more difficult. Got a favorite route you've done out in the Sierras?
@@ShortGuysBetaWorks So far my favorite Mountain is Mount Sill (14,160 feet) The L-Couloir to the Class 3+ scramble is my favorite route up!
@Deadringer, we don't do many couloirs in dry conditions in Colorado - to loose. But reading about it, I guess some people do that route in both snow and dry conditions. Which (or both) have you done? I actually much prefer snow and ice climbing.
@@ShortGuysBetaWorks I hike/climb Couloirs in both conditions. I too prefer when there’s snow, but a dry climb up a dry chute or couloir makes for an miserably fun day haha. No need to carry a heavy pack full of winter gear
fantastic video. I'm preparing for a class 3 climb in a month from, and just learned so much from this video. Thank you.
Have fun! ☺️💪 What are you climbing? 🏔️
I have one additional tip I've told my family many times. It's much safer to downclimb face-in rather than face-out. Most people feel more comfortable facing-out but it puts you in a much more vulnerable position to begin a tumbling fall that you can't control. If you are face-in, it puts you in a better position to catch yourself before you can gain to much speed from a slip. It also puts you in a better position to identify foot holds that are below you. Lastly, stepping on a small foothold with your toes is more balanced than on your heals.
That's a good point. I would agree that you should face-in when it feels more comfortable, as you are in a more natural position to use the hand and foot holds in a biomechanically sound way, as you point out. That being said, on lower-angled terrain, facing in can actually make it harder to see your feet. The steeper it is, the easier it is to see those feet. Our feet support most of our weight, so you are right to point out the importance. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I would agree that face-in is generally safer as long as you can spy the holds.
Wonderful video! Excellent information and informative video!
Glad you found it useful! Have fun up there! Got any scrambles in mind for the end of the season?
@@ShortGuysBetaWorks I would love to try longs via the key hole, sawtooth, or Kelso ridge.
But hoping to gain some more insight about proper route finding and knowing proper holds other than 3 points of contact. Trying to do research and study up!
@@kylebeyerlein3335 I think this comes down to two things: 1) how to identify choss www.climbing.com/skills/choss-rock/; 2) what kinds of grips and foot placements are useful www.onsightbuilt.com/training-content/types-of-rock-climbing-holds
Combining those two things is "what do I grip/stand on" and "how do I grip/stand on it."
Hope this helps get you started. But once you go down the proper rock climbing rabbit hole, there is A LOT more there.
@@ShortGuysBetaWorks this will be great! Thank you so much again for the content and videos!
As someone who turned several class 3+ 14er “scrambles” into low class 5 climbs back in the day, I cannot emphasize enough the advice to be constantly checking that you are still on the route you intended to climb. Especially if you are comfortable with “real”rock climbing, it can be very easy to get off route and find yourself doing “fun” stuff that you eventually realize is not the route and for which you probably should be roped up. These days there is so much beta available, this should never happen to someone who is prepared and paying attention.
Off route can definitely end up with us being on terrain that is near our climbing ability limit pretty easily. Really important point. Thanks for watching and sharing! 🙏
Excellent advice and well put together video!
Thank you, I appreciate it! And thanks for watching 🙏
On shoes I recently bought a pair of Bellville ultralight combat boots. They are breathable, very very light, provide great ankle support and the souls must grab and mold onto everything. I have 400+ miles in these boots already with no broken stitches, no hot spots blisters or break in time. Get yourself some combat boots if you're looking to save money. I can also comfortably run my crampons on them.
I have no doubt that these are good for many things, and footwear largely comes down to personal preference, but I think it's good to call out tradeoffs in all things. These probably grip really well (I take your word for it), they definitely can support the weight of packing in gear. I imagine they have to be super durable. The ankle support is going to be good, as you point out. What are the downsides? Over 20oz per boot is nearly twice as heavy as the lighter approach shoes. The high ankle will likely be a problem on cracks, where ankle mobility is super important. Thanks for calling these out as an option!
@@ShortGuysBetaWorks the ankle is Cordura nylon very flexible when it needs to be. Only downside I've found is they get wet. Though they dry quick.
A mystery to me is what distinquishes a class 3 from a class 4. Class three seems to be quite common but class 4 seems to be quite rare. I see videos of routes described as class 3 which look very demanding and potentially fatal.
I agree that class 4 is the mystery. The common definition is about the consequences of a fall being greater but the climbing being low angle or blocky and "easy." What is easy is pretty subjective. It is also hard to judge the consequences of a thing that (hopefully) doesn't happen. In my mind, I think when we have to go beyond being specific about handholds but now also need to be precise with our feet, we may have ventured from 3 into 4 terrain. That is at least something I can judge without having to take a fall to determine the terrain grade 😂
My instructor defined it like this; 3rd class you start using a hand in places for balance. 4th class you are using both hands, and actually using your arms to help pull yourself up
@@nakulah class 2 is what you are describing as class3. Class 3 can be as hard technically as class 4 but the consequence of a fall is usually not fatal (You might break a bone but typically won't die)
happy scrambling
I can understand the confusion. But once you have done some mountaineering on class 4, the difference becomes obvious. Plus there is always borderline stuff (class 2-3 or class 3-4).
Class 3 is that transition from class 2 where hands used in climbing are necessary to make progress. Class 4 is basically class 3 on steroids. The exposure becomes significantly more dangerous. But equally important is that the rock scrambling becomes more challenging. Hands and footholds are more challenging. There is plenty of class 3 with bad exposure that remains class 3 because there are fat easy foot and hand positions, so exposure alone does not define class 4. Similarly, a really hard climbing problem is not class 4 if there is no exposure.
There can also be a fuzzy line between class 4 and a 5.0 climb.
Class 4 is sometimes roped, but I have done most such climbing without a rope. It is a function of climbing skill and proper boots. I have sometimes switched from mountaineering boots to climbing boots high on a mountain for the hard parts. It made a massive difference.
A rope is really useful for rapelling down nasty class 4 stuff. Much more pleasant than downclimbing it.
@@nakulahNot accurate.
Class 4 is class 3( hands and feet ) where you are unsure of the above situation and have rope backup . Much of what i see on class 4 use is very poor rope work / protection and is probable just a unsafe as you imagined on class 3 moves . Practice 5th class moves in the gym and on various types of rock and especially practice placing pro and correct rope work .
Very good advice. And to your point: th-cam.com/play/PLQQbFscw1n0JBhZPWRlsHFNZwjhw0XI9h.html&si=00wiEhMD5jHjdTug
I would think class 4 has exposure that generally wants rope protection. This seemed more just geared to class 3 climbing.
@@doug5yuiop I personally feel that smart rope work can be fast and is warranted on some class 4 and lower-class-five sections. I did an entire series on that type of rope work: th-cam.com/play/PLQQbFscw1n0JBhZPWRlsHFNZwjhw0XI9h.html&si=No1Vx8U49IoA26Wm
...but most people do not. There is a tradeoff between speed and the "feeling of freedom" that ropeless movement provides. In fact, where I live, there are many, many people who do lower-class-5 (up to around 5.5 or 5.6) without a rope. And these are just regular people, not people named Alex Hannold 😉
Risk tolerance is personal and part of why the distinctions between class 3 and 4 are so hard to determine. Hopefully that other playlist I shared gets more at what you have in mind.
@@ShortGuysBetaWorks Thanks, that’s an interesting series. In Oregon several of the highest peaks are class 4 at the top. Yes, people often do them without rope, but people sometimes are injured or worse. It’s a little ambiguous how to go about tackling the class 4.
Looks like the Kelso Ridge at the end of the video
Good eye. Yes it is.
how do you define a class 3 route?
Generally, once you need to use your hands a lot: www.14ers.com/difficultyratings.php
Use of hands are necessary in order to make progress climbing. Class 2 rock scrambles can also use hands for balance or an aide, but not strictly necessary to make progress. You also get borderline terrain where hands are used somewhat, and some call it class 2-3.
Once you have some experience, these distinctions start to become obvious. More important is to develop basic rock climbing skills for all sorts of rock situations, and also the skill to read rock so as to see the easier lines up the rock (routefinding). The classifications matter when you are planning your climb so that you are prepared for what you will see.
what age is too old to start class 3 climbing?
I can't say there is one. It is really dependent upon available strength and cardiovascular fitness. My Dad had done class threes as a younger man, but then stopped for many many years. He just went on one at age 74. Could he have done it without prior experience? Yeah, probably.
I’m 45 and until last year haven’t done a proper class 3 pitch since my mid- to late teens.
I’m contemplating a serious class 3 route up a high sierra 14er this summer (e.g., Sill, Whitney mountaineer’s route).
I’m a very involved father of a first grader with a 50-60+ hour / week job in finance. As such, if I follow through, I will focus my preparation on fitness / technique in the costal ranges and a shakedown or two in Desolation Wilderness (eg, Talac or Pyramid) and outsource route planning and gear checklists for the class 3 attempt at a 14er to professional guides. I got to my advanced age being humble about what I don’t know in high consequence situations!
I did not know that equation
Risk professionals (often engineers) began popularizing "probability = risk x consequence" to get people to stop focusing on only the high consequence things and also look at the low consequence but highly probable things. E.g. "Don't just look at the nuclear reactor melting down, also look at the problem of fuel waste breaking containment after being transported and deposited."
'Route' is pronounced 'Root', not Rout. It's French word
www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2011/08/route.html Making distinctions in pronunciation across regional dialects is pretty common in (now) globalized English.
Why is this called scrambling? It’s clearly climbing. 🫤
Climbers will often use the term "scrambling" for climbs that either don't use a rope or use it in a very limited way that doesn't involve anchor-to-anchor, pitched-out climbing. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambling