RIVEN is a D&D Puzzle MASTERCLASS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2021
- Let's break down Riven: Sequel to Myst, and learn what we can about D&D Puzzle Making. In this video we will demonstrate how Riven uses disconnected clues placed through environmental storytelling to show how real Dungeons and Dragons puzzles should be designed.
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Coincidentally, when Rand and Robyn were creating Myst they initially playtested it by literally DMing players through the world rather than taking the time to build working demos. Rand even included a structure from his D&D setting in one of the ages.
The interviews are honestly
So cool and very educational for game designers
I gotta hear what this structure is now
@@jadegecko From Robyn's "Classic Postmortem" of Myst at the 2013 Game Developer's Conference, it was the main central structure of the Mechanical Age. He mentions it here: th-cam.com/video/7cULHgP8tmo/w-d-xo.html
@@jordanvanness7586 That is awesome.
Whenever I think of the great adventure games I played back then, Riven comes to mind as the very best. The entire game is almost a single huge puzzle. It's so organic, and when it all came together and clicked for me, I remember feeling chills.
Me too... me too.
My +first playthrough, i had to get a guide to complete the world puzzles... still, the more micro puzzles where you get to fiddle around with un unfamiliar device until you figure out how it works are awesome, and the moment figured out the numerical system is still my n°1 aha! moment in all of gaming.
Riven was great, but I found it ssoooo hard. I didn't finish it myself.
That's the sole reason I prefer Myst
1:22 "No real locksmith or craftsman would leave such obvious and glaring security flaws."
Counterpoint, just about every video on LPL's channel
"And what's the security flaw you're accusing me of?" "You let the LPL into the Age!" "...and how was I supposed to keep him out?"
Yo be fair that supports his point. Most good locks dont claim to be un pickable cause thats an impossible standard. They make it time consuming to pick and make it so your likely to cause damage and leave evidence that you picked it. Most puzzles in games a random person could walk up and solve. With riven you need a pretty deep understanding of the world. One that you only get by "luck"(dm laying out the clues along your journey but not everyone would have) the final fire marble "puzzle/lock" in riven would take a lifetime to try to pick/brute force. And there are almost no clues on it or around it on how to solve. Theres no "hey if you go back to my office i wrote the password there"
Someone stumbling onto that lock would have absolutely no idea where to even begin to pick it.
The myst novels also have some cool traps which lend thenselves well to dnd, especially because they involve multiple characters instead of just one. An example is the trap that involves following someone through a linking book but that book has been tossed into a vat of acid, i forget exactly what happens but the writing is well done and logical.
Also if were taking about myst, we should talk about myst 3, the puzzles are super cool and many are tech based. I stole one for my dnd game, it involves using a telescope to get coordinates of certain symbols, requiring perception checks to get hints.
One thing i think helps a lot to “dnd-ify” puzzles like this is to have a bunch of clues ready to hand out IF the players start asking to roll skills. Those clues can help immerse players if they forgot what to do, and can also help them solve the puzzles if theyre stumped. A lot of puzzles i see are just problems without clues that force you to solve them or stop playing. You really cant have too many clues, meaning if you need to invent some clues on the spot, thats ok! So what if your puzzle suddenly gets “easier”, it doesnt need to be hard or frustrating, it needs to be fun and engaging. On that note, puzzles may not be every pc’s “thing” so consider the party composition and try to put something for everyone to do, even if it means having a little combat so the fighter can help defend the others while they solve the puzzle, anything to get them engaged really. A puzzle can usually be adapted to have a few extra steps that serve only to engage the pcs that usually wouldn’t interact with a puzzle, like having something heavy that the fighter needs to hold while the rogue picks a lock or something, you can just add these details as you go.
Oohh that's insidious!
I haven’t read them in a long time, but I believe the trap you’re talking about is, in The Book Of Tiana: since the books link to parallel universes based on rewrites, they break the rules/laws of writing and sneaky rewrite the atmosphere of the world to be sulfuric rather than oxygenic, so when the dude double crosses them and steals the linking book to make his getaway he chokes and dies before he can find another book to link back. It’s a cool payoff.
Someone else read the Myst books too??? Haha
Also I’ve always loved the idea of mixing combat with puzzling.
@@SeraphsWitness I have the Myst trilogy books in my bedstand. Read the first two a long time ago, but I'm gonna re-read it all soon. Just finishing up Shadow of the Gods first.
Incredibly helpful. This is so important for DM’s - for the longest times, I have felt unfulfilled by my own puzzles. I’ve really been thinking a lot about this lately and needed this video. Nicely done.
Glad you found it helpful!
I have thought about making meaningful good puzzles for awhile but always seem to fall short on something. I can be crafty and devious and include all sorts of twists and turns but in the end none of the solutions feel like they're satisfying enough or really contribute too much to the world around. Riven is one of those puzzles that's both really hard and really easy at the same time, that someone can take forever to work their way through but once they comprehend a few key elements to how it works, it just becomes a matter of plugging in the data. It seems like an ideal puzzle model.
All you said is what entranced me with Riven as a child. I was very young, under 10, when my dad played it. But I remember watching him. Those graphics, the environmental story telling... He stayed up late for months playing and was so satisfied when he beat it.
We actually kept all his notes from that play through. A literal binder full just of Riven and Myst notes! I never seen a modern game quite compare with Riven. Not in story or style. I’m kind of sad I won’t.
I'm not sure a modern game can.
Very well put, I'd like your take on Outer Wilds, as its not presented in the same way as riven but is itself a huge puzzle box like riven
Myst and Riven were early favorites of mine growing up so it is interesting to see someone talking about them. I always liked the way these games flowed and bridging those patterns into Dnd is a fascinating topic.
Must/Riven is the main reason I got into the game industry. Really concise deconstruction you did there!
You should check out this new game called Tunic. It executes this ‘contextual puzzle’ concept FLAWLESSLY. the information is revealed to the player at such a satisfying pace, such that learning one small bit of information sheds entirely new context on places you’ve already been. This makes for an extremely satisfying gameplay loop wherein retracing steps isn’t a chore, it’s a joy. When you do feel like traversing the land is becoming slow, the game hits you with a brand new power to not only increase your speed massively, but to access once inaccessible areas. The levels are small overall but so much character is injected into such a small area because of the progressive revelation approach they took. They use a similar foreign language approach too, which really makes you feel like a visitor in a land that continues on even as you turn the game off.
I always felt like Myst was two different games: a scenery walkthrough simulator, and a puzzle game. The player walks around in beautiful worlds, but the puzzles were just sort of added in to give them something to do. With Riven, the puzzles are ingrained into the world, and no one who actually lived there would think of these things as "puzzles," or "clues." They were just details of their world. The player is someone who's new, never been there, but able to deduce connections between these things in order to figure out how to proceed. And as much as I love the game Quern: Undying Thoughts because it reminds me so much of old-school Myst and Riven, it sadly falls more into the first category of puzzle game rather than the second: beautiful scenery, with clues and puzzles peppered in so that the player has something to do.
Thank you so much for this. I think Riven and Myst are responsible for my odd ability to remember the most random stuff and almost non-existent need for a notebook.
This was an incredible walk down memory lane and an excellent primer on creating a lived in world.
This actually reminds me of an AD&D module: The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh and a clue that the party finds in the first half of the adventure that is complete gibberish until the party discovers the context in the bridge to the second half of the adventure. (Spoilers ahead)
- . . .
. - . -
- - -
is the clue they get on a piece of paper in the manor house, with nothing else written on it. It doesn't relate to any part of the dungeon that where it's found, as far as the adventurers can tell... but if they wait at the manor house until nightfall, they'll be able to see a light off of a cliff on the coast, blinking at the the house in a fixed pattern: Long, short short short. Hopefully when they see this the clue will be fresh on their mind, but the adventure doesn't really mind one way or the other if they miss it.
I like how you point out that sometimes puzzles don’t need to be solved. There is a PC in my D&D campaign who has amnesia. In session 1, I gave her a dream that included a cryptic set of code words. The secret society she doesn’t remember being a part of has been trying to contact her, and she hasn’t been responding to any of the code words. Now because she has NOT solved the puzzle, her character has been abducted by the members of the secret society for interrogation, allowing her to still gain the background information she needs to push forward her character development.
Riven really is a masterclass title.
It really is
This looks like the intro to the best ttrpg puzzle video series ever made. Please make more environmental puzzle videos. All my puzzles try to be like this and I would LOVE to Head More of your thogths on the topic.
Sorry of the missspelling. My german mobile phone always tryes to germanise the english language 😅
Great video & great idea. I see 3 pressing challenges to this approach, but look forward to overcoming them somehow.
1) Games like Riven and Myst (as least as far as I remember them) were one-player whereas D&D and many other rpgs are multi-player experiences. Those players will likely incorporate encountered information differently. This is all well and fine, until some players try to dismiss such information as useless and/or rely on other players to recognize the information as important enough to think about later.
Which brings me to:
2) Gameplay sessions can have long break periods between them. This increases the challenge of players retaining fine details experienced in-game. I've found this problem is worse the longer the amount of time between sessions and worse when players don't take notes (or take poor notes) or when alcohol is involved (not hating). I usually award in-game benefits for players willing to do previous-game recaps for everyone at the start of each session and it certainly helps. However, the more details spread out across game sessions, the harder they will be to remember when it becomes necessary.
The first two points might be overcome by having many of these game immersive clues throughout the various environments, but have them overlap should some be missed or forgotten; include other in-game triggers that help remember the clues before the clues are needed; minimize the number of puzzles that rely on these clues; and design variety into the clues so they would be attracted to the characters and not just the players (PC: why would my big dumb fighter 'who dunt reed gud' be interested in that painting and the inscription around it.? GM: Maybe not the inscription so much, but the details of the battle depicted in the painting remind you of __(insert RP moment)__."
But the 3rd challenge might be the hardest one yet, and it is a challenge for any type of in-game puzzle, including the traditional ones with levers, buttons, etc.
3) What to do if/when the players don't figure out the puzzle. One obvious, and far from best, option is to let the players keep at it until the puzzle is solved. Most players can overcome lever-style and other fun house puzzles without too much real time investment, provided the puzzles are not crazy complex. Not saying it is a rewarding experience, but it is passable. However, the more challenging the puzzle, for which I include certainly ones that require the clues found through the game environment leading up to that puzzle (sometimes oddly encountered ones, if at all, like in Riven or Myst), then the harder it may be for the players, which can quickly lead to frustration. GMs should always have back-up plans for if/when the puzzles go unsolved. If the GM is unable to help surmount player frustration, it could quickly devolve into things like accusations of GM railroading, IRL sore feelings, or worse.
Playing less than once a week is def hard for puzzle games like this. As far as not being able to solve the puzzle on their own, I'd figure out a way to have them find a book or letter or something that has explicit instructions. They will still feel smart and feel like they figured it out. Players are funny like that 😂😂
If players don't figure out the puzzle, why not let them fail? As long as the logic behind the puzzles are sound, let them fail, just how players can fail rolls. There can still be an engaging story with failure. I also think it's important to know your players. If they prefer more battles or roleplaying, maybe keep puzzles more simple. Failing the puzzle gives them real consequences to avoid in the mext puzzle if they want the prize.
@@dizzydial8081 agreed! That's what I was getting at in my 3rd point. :)
I love that you ditched the tie for this one. Also this was well discussed and thought out. There's a lot of puzzles in modules and gms brains that look good on paper...but boi do they fail.
Two of my favorite things... The MYST series and d&d colliding. You had my Interest with d&d. You had my attention with RIVEN.
My takeaway from this video: I would love to see your take on what GMs can learn from Outer Wilds!
The statement Funhouse Dungeon for the Tomb of Horrors is pure gold! Thank you for the genuine laugh out loud movement.
You are quite welcome!
Wow this is actually incredibly solid advice. I've always found a lot of game puzzles, both in tabletop and video games, feel like they are lacking in meaning. This gives me something to chew on! I'm immediately subscribing!
Really enjoyed this video man. Also enjoy how any of these videos you e produced easily translate to any ttrpg and not linited to fantasy. Thanks.
Also, as far as I remember (been a while since I played this series of games), there are no red herrings. Everything you can discover has relevance in the age you find it in. Sometimes you can brute force a puzzle just by guessing the last clue, without finding the hint out in the world (or even knowing it was a hint), but there are few, if any things that look like they'd be a clue that turn out not to be useful for any puzzle to advance. I loved that these games incorporated sound clues, which were just as important as some sketch you found, or a carving on the wall. I spent so many hours clicking through images back and forth trying to remind myself of clues for puzzles I was stuck on.
From too many years of DMing I’ve distilled a simple logic to puzzles: don’t make them hard.
Make puzzles almost ‘toddler easy’ and spread the clues behind relevant PC skills with low-to-no DC. Puzzles, even for the ‘puzzle player’ that are too involved or convoluted will drain everyone at the table. At the end of the day the idea is for everyone to have fun, an easy puzzle can be made more challenging by putting obstacles in the way. A hard puzzle is not easy to make simpler in the midst of a game session.
I remember playing Riven when it was release. It was like nothing I had experienced before (as I didn't know is was the sequel to Myst and hadn't played it yet). Such a great video. Definitely sub'd for more of this next level insight. Thanks!
Dude, it literally said "The Sequel To Myst" on the front of the box! How did you miss that?
Nice Video! This definitely helped! So nice to watch a video which is actually entierely made out of content without much blabla (i like your style) :)
Glad to hear it! I just don't like wasting anyone's time.
Omg exactly every word of this. You nailed the things that make this game truly great.
I've repeated it many times in my life so I'll do it again here as well: if I were to magically able to alter my mind so I can experience something for the first time again, it would be Riven. Such a great, great experience it was. I would add to your discussion that fact that Riven would sprinkle you with info very early on that didn't come into play until much later, ultimately giving the players a tremendous "ah ha!" moment. So well done in so many ways.
I too have this very feeling about riven
@@DungeonMasterpiece I feel similarly, but I wish that even more for Outer Wilds! It also illustrates the 'ancient fallen society' concept of D&D quite well
This is really good advice for connecting larger plot points to many different areas. If you need a simple one off dungeon room puzzle, and in the off chance you haven't played it, I'd recommend looking at Portal and Portal 2. Where you have a clear goal, different pieces to work with, and puzzles that build up to the ending. However, they're only really good for a one time thing because of how they're built.
Talking about Skyrim, which has some bad puzzles, I must say that the Dragon Claw keys are genius. They fit into the world's lore and don't feel like a children's puzzle. They also make you feel like a seasoned adventurer every time you encounter them after the 1st one.
It pretty much is a children's puzzle. The only difficulty is learning that you can go in your inventory and rotate the item.
And after the first, all subsequent claw puzzles are basically already solved.
How are they not children's puzzles xD it's like square block goes in square hole
@@gabemerritt3139 That part took me a while and I brute forced a lot of them. At a certain point the damage for a wrong answer was negligible.
@@Gerendiell Never even realized some were trapped. The first golden claw one doesn't punish you.
Brilliant! Riven is just amazing.
and now after all these years Riven is coming back and will be expanded
These are great points, and honestly why I found Riven so difficult and frustrating to complete back in the 90s. You had to pay attention to EVERYTHING, because at some point in the future you would have to use that information. You needed to keep a notebook to really work through the game
I'm a simple man. I see someone talking about how good Riven is, I hit the like button.
I would like to see an expanded video on this premise. Some more explicit examples would be cool as well. Been a while since I’ve played Riven, so specifics are a bit hazy.
The biggest example is the way you learn the Rivanese number system. At a dwelling you can deduce is a school for children, there is a mechanical wooden “upsidedown hangman” game. You hit a lever, a disc spins until it stops at a symbol, and triggers the hangman to lower, with a tick sound each time it lowers by a level. The player, can figure out by the number of ticks, the symbol it stops on, is a number. The spinning disc is basically a dice roll.
And this becomes one of the foundations (the others being the sounds the animals make and the symbol of each animal) that every major puzzle revolves around. Also to expand on him explaining that the villain Gehn thinks himself as a god that loves human sacrifices, the hangman game’s endstate is the hangman reaches the bottom where a a wooden clamp shaped like a fish jaw clamps shut over the hangman, ending the game and resetting. Grim, but you don’t think too much on it.
The “Oh my” moment is when you find the full scale version of it, and the underwater viewing port under it with the Whark is when you realize the horrifying full connection to the children’s game.
@@lemmingradNot to be that guy but the number system is from the D'ni race, Gehn was teaching the D'ni language and numbers to the Rivenese
Excellent ty! More videos on dungeon design and mapping in three dimensions please
I remember changing out all those CD's playing this game when I was a kid. An now it's on the iPhone.
Fantastic video. Hats off to you
Wow loved Rivens puzzle's 🧠 got worked to the breaking point 😅😅
I'd love to see some more on this.
Cyan's games are really an inspirational treasure trove for some good Ogres & Oubliettes quests, not gonna lie.
Great Video, yeah good idea to tie the clues into the world where they might find them, before they even get to the puzzle. :) A lot of game puzzles out there aren't very well thought out.
I remember a start for a Dark Sun game I ran WAY back when where I had a locked door puzzle. It was a Green Age door in a cave. The game only lasted a couple of sessions, but it was a set-up I've still got a pin in. It was kind of a McGuffin but I figured it would make a "remember that door" thing, and tie in character arcs back to it. It was still 2nd ed days and those are still hard to get rolling. You know. Player base issues.
it really is a masterpiece. great analysis on the game design. i designed/built/operated an escape room once and used these exact principles (contextual clues and information that made sense in its environment that when combined and reorganized became meaningful and allowed you to progress). I don't think ANY designers have ever done it as well as Cyan have to this day. Even their game, Obduction, blows any other adventure/puzzle game out of the water
Glad to have found this; I’ve always thought of Riven as an exemplar of good puzzle design. The genius is that the “puzzles” AREN’T puzzles to their intended audience. It’s like if someone from the Forgotten Realms were confronted with an ATM or an elevator: It’s would in practice feel like a “puzzle” only because you don’t have the cultural context to understand how this piece of rather ordinary (to a modern Earth native) technology works.
I totally agree. My entire Pirate fortress is a good example of a puzzle. While it is a working fortress and everything there is there for a reason, it is also one big puzzle/trap. You need to learn the Pirate symbols (and be cognizant of nautical tides, the meaning of Pirate terms and the hazards of caves, especially sea caves and sea caves containing sea dwelling creatures) to safely navigate the sea caves and to safely sail the bay. You also need this info to decode and to correctly interpret the cipher. In short, it would be best if you were a pirate or better yet, the PIRATE KING - which is as it OUGHT to be. All my traps and puzzles are like this. The clues to figure them out are all around you and obvious to the proper type of entity. No villain or other NPC is going to waste their time and resources setting up meaningless or useless puzzles and traps. They are present in the game solely to serve the needs and objectives of those who put them there. The PCs or other NPCs encounter them to their peril….
My job as a DM is to forge competent player characters. Prepare to succeed OR fail to succeed. Fail to prepare and prepare to fail. Unfortunately, if you run campaigns like that, it means that some characters (or characters played by unprepared players) can and may die. If so, so be it. My highest and best compliment is when somebody says, “If you can play his game then you can pretty much play anybody’s game.” D&D should be fun yes but also challenging, interesting and educational. If you are looking for a fun game based upon pure luck where you don’t have to think, don’t play D&D. Play Candy Land or Chutes and Ladders instead. These are fun games too!
One of my favorite game series. I have always been after these larger scope, world embedded puzzles. The game Abduction is another, more recent, game in the same vein, with a lot of inspiration potential. Particularly the trees.
I've not played it! I'll find a longplay! Thanks!
@@DungeonMasterpiece Absolutely.
Abduction was also made by the creator of myst
@@DungeonMasterpiece hrmmm ActUalllly, the game game is called Obduction. It's by the old team at Cyan, it's not groundbreaking but it's pretty good.
I was thinking about this for a wizard lair. An ancient wizard with such a vast hoard of knowledge and wondrous items would want to keep it as secret as possible and as secure as possible (if aiming for lichdom to reclaim these items later).
With this in mind, a wizard would probably have a "dummy lair" with deadly traps and little to no treasure to throw off a scent. Meanwhile, the real lair would be inaccessible without magical means like teleport or dimension door which also has a secret code known only to the wizard. Finding this password and location of said lair would be to scour the world and following the various works of this wizard.
No self-respecting wizard would make a totally survivable gauntlet of traps and battles that lead directly to treasures they want to keep safe. Wizards are intelligent.
Maybe your wizard is intelligent. Intelligence is my wizard’s dump stat.
I’m so bad at this game.
@Michael Winter ah, a wizard who needs a hat of intelligence to cast spells at all. Nice concept to have a steal maneuver make em powerless.
this is generally good advice for writing, thanks :)
There's a clever puzzle a surprising number of these old PC puzzle games do (most notably both Riven and Myst III) that I think also would work great for a D&D setting.
(spoilers for Riven and Myst III below)
Usually in these games you get handed some kind of book or letter early on that upon initial inspection just contains some supplemental lore about the setting, or backstory relevant to the plot (eg. the journals that Atrus gives you at the start of both games). But as a twist, the solution to an important puzzle late into the game (trapping Ghen in Riven and the final puzzle in Myst III) requires you to have read that book and have some understanding of the plot or lore inside to succeed (trapped books can only hold 1 person at a time, the final puzzle is an exam and the book is about what Atrus wanted to teach).
I could definitely see myself making a scenario for my players where a prominent NPC gives them some kind of tome or letter, I make a physical handout and give it to them, then later on in the plot, a puzzle relevant to that NPC, the relevant lore, or ideally both, appears and the solution is just right there in the handout, either as just a test of reading comprehension and problem solving, or perhaps as some form of secret message if the party is particularly clever.
You can make a puzzle as easy or hard as you like, but I really like the underlying basis of why the puzzles are so good for story immersion you pointed out: meaning. It all boils down to "what do each of the puzzle pieces mean in relation to the characters, the game world, or to each other?" Like the skyrim puzzle, putting 3 stones into slots in the correct order will open a door, but ultimately "Eagle, Whale, Snake" doesn't really MEAN anything. You could have a puzzle where the player can loot someone's room for magic items and the player could find a ring that points to the next clue or whatever, and that could be the end of it. OR it could be so much impactful and immersive if you add narration about the player finding it in a box along with some poetry/script which informs why and to where it is pointing. Was it a remnant gift from a long deceased lover, stowed away in an attempt to bury emotional pain, because it's doomed to forever point in the direction of the spirit with unfinished business? Or was it a family heirloom given to them so it may always warn the wearer of the direction of danger?
Thanks for the insight.
Puzzles have gods that look over them in dnd that also have divine portfolios that include other fundamental concepts. Locks as intricate puzzles that can be solved mechanically with thought and consideration is not only in line with the way master craftsmen in many dnd universes would operate, but indeed with the actual tangible structure of the multiverse
5:47
That dragon-themed jewelry set is fire!
You know.... like a red dragon. 😁
Edit: Solid advice.
I personally like FFX-like puzzles like the books of the desert language, you learn that this rune means "death" and this other one means "dragon" if you only have one of the two you may think it's dangerous, but with both, you have dragon slayer, or the opposite, you have an ancient statue of someone slaying a dragon, and you have [name] dragon slayer, or it's written on the blade that kills dragons, and if you see another one that kills undead you have a common symbol and can deduce what it means, then after a while you can have 2 doors, one with death and the other with exit.
These small clues can be dispersed everywhere, and you can obviously manage in which order the players discover them.
It's a great puzzle that works over multiple sessions. Though you might have to draw some scenes, but with tools like daz studio and other posing software it's fairly easy to make scenes from free 3d models. (Not sponsored, I just find the tool useful)
As for making the wizard's portal to an undersea lair a puzzle, it may have safeties in place to prevent it from opening without first gaining the ability to breathe underwater, and securing all water-vulnerable things so that the wizard's tower isn't flooded.
It's always nice to see environmental storytelling that tells a more interesting story than "everybody died."
I got into video games via MYST. By the time I finished URU, I was looking for another game. A friend gave me Oblivion for a birthday present, that I left on the shelf because I thought it was a stupid sword fighting game. Needless to say, I was blown away. Unfortunately, the puzzles in Oblivion and Skyrim were lame. I so wanted the Elder Scroll Puzzle to be complex and difficult requiring a lot of effort going through Blackreach scratching for clues to open the scroll safe. I'd love a mod that adds a MYST level series of puzzles in Blackreach. There are so many possibilities like having to collect the crimson nirnroot as part of the task, or programming the Dwarven Centurian to move a boulder or open a door etc. So many opportunities were squandered but that is apropos to Bethesda...
Sorry in advance for no TLDR, but.....story time! I rented "the witness" through xbox gamepass once and it was enjoyable at first, but I actually had to step back and quit partway through. The reason being the game was basically too good at immersion.
The game puzzles revolve around drawing a pattern from a clear starting dot and working with various rules from there. Your video here reminds me of it in how you can learn how to solve some puzzles by going to other places and backtracking once you've learned the rules. What made me have to quit, was the eye-opening moment that the puzzles weren't restricted to the screens scattered around the landscape, but the environment itself had these puzzles.
Literally anything after that could contain a pattern drawing puzzle. From the lines formed by seeing shadows at the correct angle, to the multiple patterns possible to trace within the cracks of stone stairs, to looking up at the god-damn clouds and wondering what angle I needed to be at to trace a pattern from there.
Needless to say, but the game immediately devolved into an obsessive black hole of a search and find that my own OCD and ADHD tendencies could barely resist long enough to remember real life was a thing. Point it is, that was a fun experience (at least at first) and I'll definitely remember this trick for games I try as a gm.
I’m glad I’m not the only one. I liked it at first, but then it devolved into me thinking “well, this spot seems important” and proceeding to bumble about for 20 min only to find out there’s no actually puzzle to trace. Honestly, the reason I liked puzzle games when they were locked to fixed axis is that the puzzles were not missable for the most part. I don’t think the witness had hard puzzles, just tedious ones.
To be fair, Riven is a masterclass in a LOT of things.
I would love to add more puzzels!
Good advice.
Great, now I want to play riven again.
I enjoyed Myst, but Riven felt REAL to me.
Because it WAS real. Never have I played such an immersive game
play "quern undying thoughts" it is the spiritual successor to riven. really good in the story department as well.
Had me at Riven
Learning to count in...base-5, I think it was, still sticks with me. That little school game illustrated exactly what the giant cage was for, if you didn't figure it out already for yourself... That imagery still sticks with me.
I never really thought about it like this, as I haven't ever had the chance to play Riven. I will have to get my hands on it and try it out! Does anyone have any other references to similar games or story type puzzles?
I think Riven is really unique in this sense. I've yet to come across another game that does environmental puzzles in this way and does it this well. Obduction comes close, but - for my tastes - it's a bit too punishing when you don't know exactly what you're doing, and the setting is very uninteresting to me. "Gabriel Knight 3: Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned", has some really, really cool moments where you're figuring things out based on a map and information you've gathered. But it also has some of the dumbest point-and-click moments ever (spoiler: to disguise yourself, you put scotch tape on a hole in a wall, where a a cat goes through, so its fur gets stuck and you can use it as a moustache...). It's also really early 3D graphics and is (to my eyes) just too ugly to play now.
I like your take on this and the lessons learned. I still say Myst and Riven were some of the most boring of these types of games released at the time and I will fight anyone who says differently!!! 😜 Still, that's given me some ideas to bolster my campaign. Thanks
Your videos are excellent. If you actually enjoy the fantasy medium, and aren't just using it as a catalyst to impart real world knowledge, I would encourage you to think more deeply about the questions that you pose on the differences between the universes of these worlds and ours. Most dnd settings have many years of thoughtfully written historic context spanning through the editions that do answer these questions, both in each individual setting and in how the pieces fit together in a contingent multiverse.
interesting idea
Not familiar with Riven. Heard of Myst but don't remember much about it.
I hope you look up the whole Myst series. The games are worth digging into.
Additionally, the graphics for riven, despite being rendered in 1997, hold up AMAZINGLY well. I recommend it highly.
@@DungeonMasterpiece Right on.
I usually don't do many video games anymore, I am doing the early access for Baldurs Gate 3 currently. But before that I think Neverwinter Nights was the last one I got into.
Like the video said, Myst feels a bit contrived and silly, Riven is basically the one that "did it right" even though Myst is better remembered. I think it's partially because the devs actually knew what the story was from the start.
I have the same outlook on puzzles as you but I completely lack the skill to create what I want so I tend to avoid them entirely.
I get as far as your portal example but can't think of a link beyond the typical "use the dragon item to activate the portal" or some other obvious solution.
For a while, I thought they were talking about the last wish raid in destiny 2 😅 which honestly? Would probably be a good example of integrated puzzles too lol
A Mysterclass, if you will.
Ha!
I was like: "What the heck does Riven (the Champion from League of Legends) has to do with puzzles? Like I know she is a combo char but you don't have to do any weird puzzles to play her."
May take a look at the game
PS: I will ask this question until you answer it! What kind of pants are you wearing if you are even wearing any?
PPS: Where is your tie??
I hope he's wearing purple velvet pants that match the jacket.
I'm wearing salmon colored chinos, but it changes in this video.
And my dress shirts were dirty and I wore a bowling shirt. So I was lazy about wearing the tie. 🤣
Jokes in you, thinking he owns pants....
Damnit Zoran, put some pants on!!
another game that has puzzles perfectly intertwined with story is Outer Wilds
Nice rings.
HELL. YES. On all accounts.
Thanks.
Without knowing Riven, this video is inconceiveable...
who here just can't get enough snake, fish, and chicken combination locks? over and over and over and over again
They only take 2 minutes to brute force! ahah
Wish my players would be able to solve puzzles in the myst/riven style. They'd just have the barbarian throw a halfling at the door.
So I want to ask this without searching the internet and accidentally stumbling onto spoilers, but, do you need to play Myst before Riven or can I just jump right into Riven?
Ummmmmmmm no... But riven will feel far more enriching for having played myst.
Also, if you like puzzle games, myst is totally worth the play. There is a reason it's considered a grandfather of puzzle games.
That being said, you could get the full enrichment of the context from watching a longplay/let's play. Watching someone do a decent thorough playthrough who knows what they are doing would take about an hour or so.
there is one place where you have to fiddle with a machine, the boiler on the island with gehn's lab
It's still better than similar fiddle puzzles in other games; unlike those, the boiler is (mostly) rationally designed; someone with a passing knowledge of basic engineering could stand a chance of deducing how to operate the controls, without trial-and-error, by closely examining the pipework and other visible working parts. The only part of it that doesn't really make much sense is the big pipe coming out of the base that leads to nowhere.
Very simple version of this:
A cult of some god, associated with a constellation in the night sky.
The constellation is on the holy symbols of the cult members.
A doorway to the cult's secret temple is studded with gems that light up when you touch them.
If the characters make the symbol of the constellation, the doors open.
To iterate?
Probably the first time I've heard of someone reference their second iteration as their first.
*Gehn. Legendary game!
You Myst me with that.
another day, another ideas stolen from Dungeon Masterpiece
keep it up buddy, love the channel and my players love all the ideas you are giving me
Glad you like them!
Puzzles and traps can be combined and interchanged. It's the approach and purpose that defines their nature. Why is the puzzle or trap in that spot? Is it to slow or prevent progress? Does it contain necessary information? Does this tie to a mystery? Are there multiple solutions? Are there repercussions for a wrong solution? Too many DMs add a trap or puzzle without considering many of these...and they're not alone. Old school adventures were LITTERED with meaningless traps and puzzles.
Would it be possible to play Riven as a DnD campaign at the table? My first instincts is there is no combat.
So what about the gold dome?
ah Riven. the queen of puzzles. nightmare of myst series...
1:25
Clicks over to a lock pick lawyer video
I'm curious if your perspective has changed since you made this video. Not that Riven isn't a D&D puzzle masterclass, but your later video about DM bad habits seems to indicate a perspective (which I agree with) that DMs habitually spend way too much time trying to "craft" a story or environment as opposed to letting that environment rise organically out of the story co-created with the players. I'm really intrigued for example by the system for mysteries in Brindlewood Bay, where whatever solution to the mystery the PCs can justify with the clues they've uncovered *is* the correct solution, assuming they pass a check roll. The solution you pose here, involving layering a lot of details into the world to solve a riddle, seems almost antithetical to the more improv-based approach you indicate in the later video. Or maybe I'm missing something? My bias is very much against story paths at this point for a lot of the reasons you mention in the other video - indeed, my bias is sort of against D&D in favor of other systems because I think D&D has gotten to the point that what players expect is a story path and I'd rather set aside that baggage and start fresh with Kids on Bikes or PbtA.
More succinctly, what advice do you have for taking a more environmental approach to puzzle building in a more improv-based game?
I think this guy is Italian. The joke is that two Italians were shipwrecked. They "talked" to each other and got back to shore. (Get it? They could not talk without gesticulating. This is how they swam to safety.)
It’s worth remembering that there are almost no
Puzzles in real life. None at all. So it’s hard to deconstruct them because we have nothing to compare them to!
Great idea however.....
"You walk into a study there is a book written in a strange language you've never seen nor can read"
Players: Anything else?
End of the campaign puzzle there is a countdown ticking down before the city blows up but the buttons have a strange language written on them
Players: "We found a book didn't we... can I roll for a button?"
🤣🤣🤣
Make it a gilded/jewel-encrusted/obviously valuable book. That way at least, if all else fails, the rogue will probably nick it and then the party will still have it when they really need it!
This was neat, but likely painfully unhelpful to someone who hasn't played, or remember in detail the puzzles of Riven. At best the message of the video is, "don't make puzzles, let a player learn that fish = 3 a few sessions ago and then ask them to open a lock with a keypad of animal shapes".
"No real locksmith would leave such glaring security flaws"
You've clearly never watched a single LPL video.
🤣🤣🤣
I agree with the thumbnail but riven is still inferior to myst in terms of puzzle quantity.