I think one thing that could help players learn (and this may already exist in a fighting game...not sure, been out of the scene for a bit), is an optional postmortem screen. Show the losing player how much total damage they took from being punished or blocking incorrectly, as well as how much damage they dealt by punishing their opponent. Show how many times they were counter hit and explain what that is. Successful anti-airs vs being anti-aired. Maybe a metric for spacing or time being cornered. I think something like that would go a long way in helping a new player understand why they are losing and how they can get better.
A lot of those numbers won't mean much to a new/casual player. It'll probably help someone who wants to get better competitively, but even then players would be better off looking at the entire match than a set of numbers.
on the topic of "zero-sum" gameplay, it always feel like fighting games are inherently more zero-sum than others: in other genres, when your opponent hits you, outside of certain exceptions (that are almost always frowned upon) you dont just lose control of your character/team/units, and can immidiately fight back but in fighting games, when someone hits you, you just immidiately lose control unless you either spend an extremely precious resource (bursts) or learn a completely different system (KI combo breaker) just to get back to neutral Which means that in FGs, one player playing their gameplan (of hitting their opponent) directly causes the other player to stop playing their gameplan
This talk really has my creative sides flowing right now and it really makes me appreciate the titles this "age" and left me with some interesting thoughts. In particular that in the next "age" since there is room for all sorts of levels of accessibility I think we'll see a move toward newer designs such as mentioned experimenting with win mechanics like Smash. Again excellent job to Noah on this talk!
Good talk but I think Noah really underestimates the impact of having robust single-player story modes in fighting games. Ultimately every new FG out there that doesn't already have decades of nostalgic fans like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, or Tekken needs some way to loop in new players within a low-pressure environment. Single-player story modes allow players to become invested in characters not just mechanically, but also emotionally willing to spend many hours labbing to pull off their coolest looking moves and optimal combos. I guarantee anyone who developed a love for fighting games back in the 90s didn't know a single thing about frame data or plus on block, they just saw a character that they thought looked really cool and were from that point onward eager to put in the time to learn them because of that emotional connection. Now that the social aspect of arcades have mostly disappeared in the West, it's more important than ever to establish an environment where players can still stick around and have something interesting to do even when they've reached a momentary plateau in their skill level. If all there is to do in your new fighting game is Arcade Mode, 1v1 or Online Ranked, then your playerbase is going to be dead in a week because new players will have completed all your perfunctory SP content and run up against the competitive players who only care about PvP, with no buffer between.
I think he just understands fighting gamers better. I wish an accurate unbiased poll could be taken to show how many of us who *actually* spend money on these games and expansions really cared *at all* about a story mode. Most of the characters we already have an attachment to, most of the stories are *really* contrived (or worse) derivative of stories we already know and what I really care about is the game play. Let other games fill the story/power fantasy/imaginary friend roll as they already do. Street Fighter 2 hardly had any story at all and it started an entire *genre.* I could care less about the entirely too predicable (hey how much ya' wanna' bet someone dies, because if you can't write just kill a character and that will create auto-tension and "engagement," and yet the "good guys" still pull it out in the end?) plot lines, yet I get deeply invested in the depth and balance of the gameplay.
This is a huge reason why Smash Bros and to a lesser extent games like Blazblue with decent singleplayer content or alternate gamemodes were able to get so many people into fighters and sticking around, smash being known as a party game for kids is a testament to this. Not to mention good, intuative tutorials that cater to multiple learning types and don't have the pacing of a college textbook are pretty much non-existent in the genre. Strive and Uni deserve credit for their tutorials but they are still very informationally dense and feels like work to get through, not play. Just to make intentions clear I love mechanically complex fighters, I just think the onboarding process for new players should be as accessible, diverse and low stakes as possible.
@@mikejonesnoreallyThis mentality hurts the growth of the genre but I see where you're coming from. I personally only play online and it's because most singleplayer modes suck, especially in modern games. If developers make some engaging singleplayer content that without players realizing it, teaches them how to play the game, I'm pretty sure the silent majority of casual and even some competitive players would be stoked. I'm not talking about stories by the way, just singleplayer content and gamemodes, you're totally right in saying most FG stories are largely bland and derivative.
For Honor has really succeeded at adventuring into the experimental area. You can be introduced into the fighting game mechanics by playing their MOBA format that's more suitable to friendly casual experiences.
Great talk, loved the explanation of pros and cons for each point brought up. I think the most interesting takeaway was how the most popular games now are some with the most condensed amount of inputs. EVO 2019's most popular games were some with a great amount of depth without the complexity of mechanics. I think something the FGC has taken a lot of pride in is the complexity that comes with their games, which in turn hurts them because the more complex something is the harder it is to teach someone or grab someone's attention. I would say, I think something that was missed was the idea of the spectacle for big moves. While it is boring seeing a character's ultimate animation for the 256th time, for the winner/spectator, it becomes a much hypnotizing moment. These moves aren't really seen much as well since the moves are so risky and need proper setup for them. Something else that would really help with accessibility is defining character themes to figure out what kind of character to play. Mario Tennis franchise does this by categorizing each character into 5 categories (All-Around, Power, Defense, Speed, Tricky) which allows people to translate those definitions across the roster and use those words to find who they might like right off the bat. While fighting games characters aren't beholden to certain play styles, their kits are designed a certain aspect. Veterans know which characters are designed to be spammy and campy (projectile and neutral focused), who are bulky powerhouses (large HP and slow, big hitting moves), and who focus around lightning fast combos etc. Defining that for newcomers might be another approach to help people not only learn the game, but also translate that knowledge into other fighting games.
Man. Seeing that SF4 trials screen gave me total PTSD! Some of those trials were incredibly difficult. I remember fei long had a trial combo which was medium punch -> medium punch. Sounds easy... couldn't do it. Had to ask on forums how to do that stupid combo lol!
In a way, competitive Pokemon players can run up against the sorts of mental limitations that the last guy was talking about. There's not only a huge amount of data to internalize in terms of moves, character stats, items, builds, and team composition, there's also the behind-the-scenes damage calculation process which causes the in-game decision making to become feel-based/experience-based, rather than a simple matter of knowledge. It's not like those things can't be memorized, but there are just so many individual factors that it becomes impractical.
The same thing happens with chess when there is a more strict time limit. People can memorize certain openings and lines, but often the game gets into unexplored territory and people have to just play by feel and what board position just looks more appealing based on experience.
47:40 This was a question that could use more of an answer (not blaming Noah for this, knowing every fighting game is not realistic). In the 90s, the "golden age of fighting games", many of the game are considered notoriously difficult to learn by modern. As Noah mentions in the talk, though, developers have been experimenting with approachability for a *long* time. Indeed, RNG was used in some of the most famous games of that era, specifically Darkstalkers 3: Vampires Savior(abbreviated "vsav") and Samurai Shodown 2 (abbreviated samsho2). It's hard to say whether this was to make the games more approachable, but I'm still gonna work with that assumption. Samurai Shodown 2 has some loser in the background run by every once in a while to either throw a bomb (it deals damage if it hits you) or a chicken wing (heals you if you grab it). This makes for some moments where the playing field gets temporarily weighted in a way that can be capitalized on by either player. In this case I'd generally call it a wash in terms of making the game more approachable, though. A good player will capitalize off of it better, so it doesn't *really* make it easier to learn for new players. In Vampire Savior, there is the mechanic of tech hit. I don't wanna get too technical in case this is being read by someone who isn't familiar with fighting game mechanics, but basically, if you hit buttons when you get blocked, you can press a button to have more of an advantage. The system that is in place, thought bases this on RNG. So the button that gives you the highest chance of advantage also gives you the least advantage. So, on paper, this seems like a decent system to help newcomers. If they are mashing buttons on block, they will find themselves having more advantage. However, what instead ends up happening is that the skill ceiling is raised dramatically, because it turns out that there is an optimal sequence of buttons that you need to press in order to maximize your chances of getting the best possible tech hit. So every single time that you block a move, you should be able to input that specific, rather intricate sequence of button presses. More recently of course, there are characters like Faust or Zappa from Guilty Gear who have elements of randomness in their kits, and have to learn how to play around it. In these cases however, the randomness is usually something that makes the character harder to learn, because you need to be able to adapt quickly to elements that are out of your control. You can see a character like Hero in the recent Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, where they gave him the potential to land a critical hit on any smash attack. This instead became so unpopular among the player base that some TOs have flat-out banned the character, because he was seen as potentially undermining the legitimacy of competitive play. To summarize: Adding RNG to fighting games is something that needs to be considered *very* carefully. It's very difficult to find a spot where you aren't increasing complexity for new players, or possibly undermining the very things that make fighting games appealing. You can easily make the case that a game where RNG is a significant factor in deciding the winner is *by definition* not a fighting game, based on the criteria that Noah established in the beginning. I think that there is definitely room for experimentation on this, indeed, something as basic as button mashing is itself a kind of RNG-based playing style, but finding a solid spot for the RNG might just be more of a chore than it's worth at the end of the day.
RNG in other games have rarely ever hurt the competitive integrity of the game because it's never about the RNG but rather the variance. Dota 2 has random crits but with built in protection to mitigate variance. CSGO has bloom and first bullet RNG but only to discourage movement and as an alternative to damage fall off. Warcraft 3 had random items but they forced you into making a decision. That's how Hero's command menu works to begin with and I think that's fine, though some spells are way too powerful and just increases the variance. Since I (and I'm assuming everyone else for that matter) don't know if Hero's crit mechanic has an RNG protection like Dota 2 I won't say it's unacceptable. What's important is that you mitigate variance.
You should try Hisoutensoku. It's a anime fighter with a meter system linked to cards in a deck you build before the match with some cards being supers, others powering up/giving you new specials and some universal ones that act like system mechanics. Of course it's not perfectly balanced but having the rng of drawing cards connected to all of your character's strengths makes for a extremely unique experience that is very replayable. This and some other unique universal mechanics (universal 8-directional flight tied to your special attack meter, cycling field effects etc) make it very much worth trying for anyone curious about thinking outside the box of conventional fighting game design.
The idea of making combos a bit easier actually reminds me of my experience with Skullgirls. I picked it up recently, went into Training Mode to try out a few characters, and discovered that it’s very easy to chain a couple lights into a medium or two and into a heavy. I’m very much a noob when it comes to fighting games, but I felt like I had discovered a really strong beginner’s combo all on my own.
In terms of execution there a certainly some arguments that could be said for accessibility but I think readability is the next thing that needs to evolve in fighting games moving forward. Fantasy Strike is probably the best example. You literally see your hit points, there are visual indicators that cue you in on invulnerability, and armor.The game literally tells you that a command throw is jump-able. Those are the kind of things in my opinion that help with accessibility. I still find that basic tutorials are not very effective for getting you to understand the game or your character as a whole, but I found under night in-births exe:late[st] to be very detailed to the point that if someone spent a few times going over it they'll have a clearer understanding of fighting games in general. That game is still heavy on the execution and it's a very offensive game but they at least make an effort to not throw you in blind.
Another thing Fantasy Strike tells you: Frame Advantage! The hit sparks communicate frame advantage, dynamically in real time as you play. This ought to be industry standard.
Fighting games need tutorials and to guide players from when they start, to the point where they are accomplishing the reason they started playing, including people doing well in tournaments and ranked mode. We haven't seen that yet. Not even in Fantasy Strike.
@@O1OO1O1 I agree tutorials need to be better guides but I think readability definitely plays into that as well. Fantasy Strike may not have the most elaborate tutorial but if you are deciding to forgo the tutorial and just figure things out on your own, there are more things that you may pay attention to the more you play. There are a few more things I felt like Fantasy Strike could have done to make their tutorial even better and I do think they missed a good opportunity hopefully they'll improve it.
'Blades of Gory' simplifies the fighting genre with only 3 attacks covering long, mid and close ranges, whilst adding complexity in the blocking (each attack requires a specific block). With no jump or duck it condenses the fighting game to a mastery of range , timing and accurate blocking to create counter opportunities.
I'm a first timer player in smash and after playing some time and watching TH-cam videos I realize the game is short hop centric where you can't expand your move set if can't do the short hop
@@toyinbode4368 I think the best way not to be training slave in short hop would be to have a dedicated button for short hop instead of pressing two buttons jump button to short hop
I still struggle to understand what people found so difficult about parrying in SF3. I remember hearing that rhetoric constantly when SF4 was released and it made no sense even back then. Instead of holding back to block an attack, you tap forward at the moment of impact. It negates all chip damage if timed right and leaves you open to counter attack. That's it. It's a dead simple risk/reward system. Why it got vilified and used a scapegoat for how "complex" fighting games had gotten, I'll never know.
RE: Fantasy Strike - If you're killing the "crouch" input, why aren't you just changing BLOCK to down, instead? I'm tinkering with a PICO-8 demake of a FG concept, and I'm replacing jumps with "up to block."
He mentions Tekken like once but killer instinct about 10 times. Definitely biased and sounds like he is salty that killer instinct didn’t take off like Tekken 7 or sf4. But yeah Tekken 7 is the goat.
Here's my anecdote: I recently bought blazblu central fiction and spent some time practicing moves so I can play single player. I haven't played single player yet. I also just bought Fantasy Strike last week and am feeling good with 2 characters and am playing online. There's plenty of depth to the moves and the game strategy and I'm having a blast. I'd be open to some moves requiring minor joystick inputs like a hadoken or a left-right or down-up. I want to try blazblu again at some point but I gotta say the tree of this move can combo I to this move or if you're in the air this move etc really makes my eyes glaze over. For now I'll just keep loving my fantasy strike and I've barely scratched the surface
Wow, are there like a lot of FS devs here or something, because other than here, I never hear about that game. *Thankfully.* If I want to play a one note brain spark that humps Street Fighter's leg endlessly and since it's inception, I have "K"oF for that. :3 Actually I don't but I do have SS, close enough without the god awful.
@@mikejonesnoreally Your treatment of Fantasy Strike is both unwarranted and also shows how little you understand about the game, the thinking behind it's design, and fighting games in general. More accurate would be to say, "I really don't like Fantasy Strike, for reasons that aren't very logical." There are likely a lot of Fantasy Strike players here because for _decades_, people who love fighting games haven't had something like Fantasy Strike up till now, and we're interested and invested in this new more accessible direction the genre is taking because it means we can enjoy the games, and so can more people who've never played them.
Hey Bruce, did you hear about that hype FS tournament at EVO with the huge prize pool? Right. Neither did anyone else. You can tell everything I know about fighting games from *one* paragraph? Um, no. I don't like fantasy strike for reasons to do with not liking copycats. You *really* think subjective opinions have anything to do with *logic?* They don't becuase they can't, so speak for *yourself* because other than thus shilapalooza, I don't see anyone talking about fantasy strike.
mikejonesnoreally I look forward to hearing about that tournament at EVO 2020 which is why I'm trying to help people learn about FS and try it out. Positivity. You should try some of it some time
So many good points made. I love how he challenges the assumption that we need features to get people to play these games. "Evo moment 37 did more to get people playing fighting games than any cutscene." Many times devs and even players forget that a checklist on the back of the box only gets you to buy the game not keep playing it. And he is probably one of the only people I've heard to differentiate retention from accessibility. He also confronts the idea that fighting games are inherently difficult to get into because of their 1v1 mostly skill based nature. This is something people entrenched in fighting games will never understand and while he brings up SCII, that's also kinda lost its ground in the 1v1 realm and its design space is endless allowing several people to have fun at once in different modes. I also love how he rejects the idea that execution is some barrier before you can play the game. In the context of fighting games I've often heard this rhetoric that people don't want to practice motion inputs before they can "play the game". And Day9 already said it in his rant about BW which is one of the most mechanically demanding game. "You're already playing the game." The FGC has kinda ruined the image of fighting games as promoting it as this though but rewarding thing to play and it turns a lot of people off and it doesn't help because of the inherent problem that when player bases are small it's harder for new people to find fair matches. I never even realized some games tell you to go fight before completing your training. That's such a nice thing to tell players. And he's right often players fall into the training trap and devs are way too happy to design training modes to keep you in that trap and players both casuals and hardcore are too quick to praise this but data shows that maybe not everyone makes it past the tutorial. If there is one thing the game should teach you it's that it's ok to lose. You gain more about how the game works by playing real matches. Just focus on your decision making, the "real game", all the other things, combos, hit confirms, mixups, reacting to overheads, these things will come naturally provided you have the basic idea of how they work. This is why I think fighting games don't need to be simplified. You will learn mechanics eventually either through experimentation or playing the game creating a desire to enjoy learn it. I'm extremely disappointed that no one talked about Dojos from SFV. Sure it hasn't taken off but I think the key to player retention may lie in creating a community there. Insert talk about intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards here. Sure the age we live in is one of streamers and reddit shit posting but clans were such an integral part of creating community back in the early days of gaming. Your favorite esports team is probably from an old clan and in a lot of ways it's trying to mimic the local arcades of creating community and finding regulars.
But the execution barrier is so, so true though. Name one other genre that requires hours of physical dexterity practice in order to use a basic action. Yeah, it's a turnoff for countless people. Most games take no more than 2 minutes to learn how to perform an action; the challenge is in how to use that action effectively. Fighting games tend to take longer, and require just as much practice for both steps - for dozens of characters. Just to use their tools. That is not like learning how to play Super Mario. This is something that veteran players often take for granted. The amount of time it takes to "naturally" learn the ins and outs of a fighting game generally far exceeds the time it takes in, say, a platformer, shooter, RPG, racing game, etc. Some of that complexity just comes with the territory, and that's fine. But part of it is simply tradition in the fighting genre, and mostly only exists because it always has. Until developers start to realize WHY and HOW the fighting genre is different from literally every other genre, they're not going to make much progress in dissecting how to make it more approachable for people who play those other genres.
Part of me wonders how much of a fighting game's ability to remain approachable depends on how much of a cultural force it is beyond the scope of a dedicated playerbase. Consistently, I see people compare what they see in fighting games to what they've been exposed to through either Street Fighter or Smash, and games that fall in an area where they aren't similar enough to those launch points end up becoming a large challenge for many players. One way I have seen this alleviated is by using a different medium for a fighting game: Smash Bros for instance can be compared to horseplay where you have to wrestle the other guy off the couch, or in extreme cases a game like Mario Tennis Aces uses the sport of tennis to create an environment where learning concepts is steeped in real world logic. This takes advantage of the fact that the average person is more likely to know what a 'backhand' is as opposed to a 'low'. It even works as a way to broach far more complex topics: the concept of the Neutral Game is something I struggled to explain to anyone without a fighting game background, but the minute I tried to explain it to a friend through Aces, they understood it as the rallying phase of the game, and that's now my go-to comparison even outside of that specific game.
I can't see this genre growing a lot without getting cheaper. Look at all the big games out there. They're all free-to-play titles with relatively friendly monetization models. How do fighting game devs expect people to get into the genre (or their specific game) if it's locked behind at least $60 + several $20 Season Passes.. FGs need to adapt, and I'm hopeful Riot's Project L will do a good job at this exact thing.
“Relatively friendly monetization” lol no. The price of these games is barely an issue because the people who are interested in fighting game’s will buy them. The real problem is the lack of accessibility that loses them the people who showed any interest.
@@bert6236 willingness to try it isn’t the issue. The problem is retention. Fighting games are inherently appealing, but if people can’t get into it it won’t matter how many people try it.
I've had this video on my watch later list emsincr I first made my TH-cam account many years ago and I've finally managed to make time and watch it. I'm incredibly disappointed. And my god, 4/5 questions the guy relates smash bros in the answer, I knew something was up the moment he grouped it along fighting games. Simply awful. Edit: also so much contradicting, he says he dislikes mobile games because of how simplified they are... But when smash bits does it, he praises it. There's many more examples of him glazing SB but I'm not going to bother with this anymore.
I think that accessibility isn't really the problem. League of Legends is riddled with weird, unintuitive mechanics but that doesn't stop it from gaining new players. Young gamers are smart. The problem with fighting games is that it's an old genre. It's tied to a specific culture and the stuff those people like.
@@Relptica__ Combos and inputs are generally the easy part of any fighting game, especially the basic inputs that represents no problem at all for any mid-low player. The real hard part of fighting games is being able to play in the neutral and being able to land a hit to go into combo, and being able to maximize any opening. This requires a slow understanding of spacing and how to approach, in any case a fighting game is always fundamentally based on the players being willing to spend the time to train and understand it. If you remove that part you're basically taking the main appeal away from the genre.
"I think that accessibility isn't really the problem." Want to know the #1 reason I've stopped playing the 10+ fighting games I've played? Accessibility. It's a problem. There are others, however.
@@O1OO1O1 no, accessibility was never a problem. Fighting games are one of the easiest games to understand, you press a button to do an attack, input a command to do a stronger attack, get opponents health to 0 of lower then yours before timer runs out to win. And intact all modern fighters tutorials will even teach you about system mechanics, characters specific mechanics, moves property in the move list and sample combos for you to learn. What the game doesn't teach is how to win because that's up to the players, unlike mobas and other team based game there's nobody to carry you if you're mediocre and if you do not want to put in any effort to improve then though luck this genre might not be the genre for you. considering people like brollylegs can compete at a high level without the ability to use his limbs, this genre has always been about self improvement dumbing it down would do nothing for most that want to win because what it only does is to let those that are already good at the genre and constantly self improving to still always win. Games like fantasy strike only seems to be accessible is all down to the fact that the majority players of the genre doesn't play it. In fact if in a hypothetical situation where FS is the only game the situation would be worst because you will get the 2019 EVO ShamSho top 8 situation where the oldest of the top players would dominate because the game has been strip down of its complexity and those with better fundamentals would lay waste to anyone trying to get in
This kind of thinking reminds me that book Kurt Vonnegut should the strongest people have to be handicap forced to wear extra weight belts because of their strength intelligent forced to wear sound distracting headphones to stop them from thinking since we can't raise people up to the higher standards that would be too difficult we have to bring down those that have exceptional abilities to lower expectations because of "fairness" that's not reality, in the end all you're doing is showing highlighting the other people's shortcomings and weaknesses it's showing that they cannot compete at the higher level and they never will so we have to lower the standards for a false sense for fair play
This is rare that I see a GDC talk uploaded that was not well-thought out at all. For beginners, the explanations are vague and too wordy. For the initiated, they are almost completely redundant. I'm in a middle of 1 hour explanation non-stop, I see a dozen of games cited and no particular problem or solution explained to me (they are cited as well, but we jump ships all the time and don't stop for conclusions). This is a random scatter of thoughts that then got a bit structured, but we're spoiled with GDC talkers that choreograph their thoughts beautifully. Love fighting games, very interested in them, very interested in theory and digging for the truth and still was really bored.
David Sirlin has good content about the design of them over at his website, and he also had some good free podcasts about the design of his recent fighting game on his Patreon.
I agree that this wasn’t a great talk. He works at the studio that makes killer instinct and he just kept referencing it as a game that does things well, but the game never took off in an impressive way. So it’s a person giving a speech on how to make a fighting coming from a person who hasn’t made a good fighting game.
In terms of accessibility you simply add mechanics as the person levels up. Chess is extremely complicated certain games are not for everybody. If you’re looking for money fighting games without ip like dbz are not worth doing. People want to win they will play absolutely dirty without remorse. It’s actually a type of stress people are enjoying, there will never be a mainstream fighting game.
DorjeDriftwood That's already how fighting games work. In fact that's how skill/strategy games work in general. As a player becomes more experienced, more mechanics are opened up to them and they improve at the game. Unless you mean some hardcoded level system and the witholding of game mechanics until the required level is met.
It was definitely the dark ages for the competitive scene of fighting games and the popularity of the genre as a whole. New games might have come out, but tournament struggled while FPSs and new genres took the place of fighting games as the main games for casual masses.
@@Luca-sl7tb I think that what is fashionable today is to take a gun and kill, and nobody fights with a clean hand. then it is no coincidence that youth prefer FPS ... before if they fought in the street with their fists
Thanks for a good talk. I feel like it was pretty good but didn't address some things. -Endless DLC, grinding to unlock the full game: The new DOA costs like 1000 dollars to buy the full game. MK11 is much the same. -Overly mature graphics: I don't mind some stuff, but I play these games with my kids mainly. -Most fighting games target the same market audience. Smash Bros. does a good job breaking the mold, and it is very successful.
"Most fighting games target the same market audience. Smash Bros. does a good job breaking the mold, and it is very successful." Totally agree. Smash Bros. does it so well that most people don't even regard it as a fighting game! "Overly mature graphics: I don't mind some stuff, but I play these games with my kids mainly." Yeah, I think we should seriously be banning games like the recent Mortal Kombat and it's excessive violence pornography. It's almost pathological.
@@downsjmmyjones101 I'd say that the DLC problem is something that affects new players because when you're looking for a game and you see a mountain of dlc on an already full price game it can be extremely discouraging.
@@O1OO1O1 Don't ban gore in Mortal Kombat ffs, it's half of what the franchise is known for! At least make a toggle so we get to choose - I think one of the MK games did something like that
Does this guy just simply shy away from 3D fighting games altogether? Or did he live through that so called "dark age" alone? As I don't recognize this sentiment in that regard thanks to franchises like Virtua Fighter and Dead or Alive
right when he first mentioned the "dark age" he literally pointed out how there were many great games in that period. Did you not watch 30 seconds more of the video before commenting?
With league, you can watch Faker one shot someone with Le Blank and as long as you have played her at all, you know how he did it, even if you also know you're not skilled enough to pull it off. In a fighting game, well fuck, even if you've memorized the move list, it's still a mystery how those professional games work.
It's a mystery what what le blank is even if u have played faker as u may be unable to hit someone with it or they just don't die in one hit when ur use her urself It's so much more easier to know what a random character of League does as their so few of them compared to FGs right and their moves are so much simpler with their lines of text and specific uses why no idea I gusss it's just how those professional games work
The quest to make every game accessable has turned games into movies, let's be honest, red dead redemption, Uncharted and it's ilk have "expanded the gaming audience" but it did so to people who don't like videogames, aka they hate participation, challenge and mastery. This is what seperates the first generation of gamers and/or "true" type gamers, from passive gamers who see games as hollywood general entertainment. When game devs and publishers attracted essentially what amounts to "non gamers" or "tenuous gamers" to the hobby, the people who whine about the participatory aspects of games. That means much of the modern gaming audience aren't really looking for gaming experiences anymore. They're looking for software themepark rides labelled games, but aren't really videogames in the traditional sense. More a glorified movie with minor participation elements, something closer to a highly scripted quick time event then a videogame.
"The quest to make every game accessable has turned games into movies, let's be honest, red dead redemption, Uncharted and it's ilk have "expanded the gaming audience" but it did so to people who don't like videogames, aka they hate participation, challenge and mastery. This is what seperates the first generation of gamers and/or "true" type gamers, from passive gamers who see games as hollywood general entertainment." I actually agree with that. Hence the term "casual gamer." A better term is probably "mainstream gamer." I think it's fine to have both types of games. I even enjoy some of those games, like God of War. Though I also think fighting games have players who would like the genre a lot out there, who simply don't know they like it because of barriers to entry (both price as well as accessibility issues), and the difficulty and stress of getting better. Once those issues are solved, and they get the business stuff right to ensure it reaches enough people, I think we'll see a game that is significantly popular. Smash has done it pretty well, but it's not very traditional. Fantasy Strike got accessibility right, but didn't address the challenge and stress of getting better, and didn't reach a large enough audience. I think something else will come along and solve it, one day.
Accessibility should focus more on tutorials and integration with online guides to understand the meta of the game and the intricacies of the characters rather than simplification, either of inputs or mechanics, that are just going to hurt the fans of the genre in the hope of attracting a casual audience that's mostly just not interested in competitive gameplay. The simplification of inputs in particular is a complete waste of time nowadays and needs to stop, it's crazy that in SFV inputs like Charge Supers and SPDs are almost entirely gone when there already are input shortcuts that make all that stuff very easy to do (if only the game told you how to do, which leads back to the need of good tutorials over simplification). Removing traditional inputs, which were designed purposefully in a certain way and affects regular gameplay very seriously, should not be what developers focus on (and in Street Fighter's case returned to how they were in IV), keep the mechanical depth intact and make stuff easier to learn for the people who are interested in learning instead.
Accessible inputs is by no means a waste of time. It changes the accessibility of a game completely. I haven't played SFV; it seems to have done it poorly, based on reports. Though maybe not, and people just think that easier controls = less depth, which isn't true. I agree that there should be more focus on helping players improve, but some players can only do that effectively if the game is accessible enough. 1 to 3 frame links? Not accessible. 360 degree motions to a special you do multiple times during a game? Not accessible. Not even needed. Fantasy Strike shows that the "reasons for high-dexterity inputs" are largely unnecessary and there are other ways to do it that don't negatively impact depth or fun.
No man: fighting games are based on an equal amount of mind games and mechanical execution ability, the physical ability to pull hard combos and complex series of inputs off is one of the uniquenesses of the genre, remove that and you make fighting games simply lesser. Fantasy Strike doesn't show anything because it's a crap game no one takes seriously. And inputs have already been simplified enough: 1 frame links don't exist anymore in Street Fighter and 3 frame links are within anyone's ability to do, 360 degree motions don't require the full circle to work because a half circle + any up will work as well.
I wish he actually explained how some of those randomness abilities worked so the audience can understand. When you just say "Mr.Game & Watch" you just confuse people.
@@Lucas-kn4zu So if I go to a lecture about Spoon's (I have never seen a spoon in my life or have never heard of one) and you tell me "The spoon's curvature is unique and used for many purposes" and I ask "Could you explain what they're used for or why it's curved like that?" And you tell me "Go find out yourself don't expect every detail to be spoon fed to you" You're absolutely getting fired.
@@matthewmorrison3745 That is an absurdly stupid analogy to make - this guy clearly did not elaborate on Mr. Game & Watch because, presumably, most people at the lecture will know what he means considering it is a lecture *about fighting games*. Not everyone will know, sure, but he only had an hour to go through the lecture, do you really think he would explain and break-down every little thing so that he is sure that absolutely everyone will know every little detail about every game he talks about? That isn't an efficient way to go about a lecture, and it isn't a lecture about the history of fighting games either - it is about accessibility in fighting games, so he would be going on tangents that are not important to the topic at all. Mr. Game & Watch's random luck element has *nothing* to do with the topic of the lecture, so why would he explain it? More importantly, why do you care that he did not explain a small detail that has nothing to do with the topic of the lecture? You really aren't very bright, are you?
@UCse4MslBw94BQDSHqczrN7w Once again, you completely miss the point - it is not a lecture teaching about the history of fighting games/fighting games characters, it is a lecture about *accessibility in fighting games.* Talking about Mr. Game & Watch's random luck element is not important or even relevant to the topic, so why would he waste time going into detail about it? It baffles me that you cannot understand this and that I have to explain this twice - it really is quite simple, and I reserve the right to insult you for being so thick in the skull. If it was important, he would have elaborated on it, as he did with examples he gave that were actually relevant to the topic. If you were complaining about him not being clear about something specific to the topic, then we would not even be having this conversation, and I would think your complaint was totally justified and understandable. But instead you are complaining about something that does not even matter, is not relevant to the topic, and is totally inconsequential. This is such a retarded & annoying nitpick, yet you lack the self-awareness to see why it is, so you think your complaint is completely justified and important. Which is just so obnoxious, to be honest.
I think one thing that could help players learn (and this may already exist in a fighting game...not sure, been out of the scene for a bit), is an optional postmortem screen. Show the losing player how much total damage they took from being punished or blocking incorrectly, as well as how much damage they dealt by punishing their opponent. Show how many times they were counter hit and explain what that is. Successful anti-airs vs being anti-aired. Maybe a metric for spacing or time being cornered. I think something like that would go a long way in helping a new player understand why they are losing and how they can get better.
A lot of those numbers won't mean much to a new/casual player. It'll probably help someone who wants to get better competitively, but even then players would be better off looking at the entire match than a set of numbers.
Smash Bros. does this at the result screen.
@@michaeltheodore5149 no it just shows how much damage you've dealt and received
on the topic of "zero-sum" gameplay, it always feel like fighting games are inherently more zero-sum than others:
in other genres, when your opponent hits you, outside of certain exceptions (that are almost always frowned upon) you dont just lose control of your character/team/units, and can immidiately fight back
but in fighting games, when someone hits you, you just immidiately lose control unless you either spend an extremely precious resource (bursts) or learn a completely different system (KI combo breaker) just to get back to neutral
Which means that in FGs, one player playing their gameplan (of hitting their opponent) directly causes the other player to stop playing their gameplan
This talk really has my creative sides flowing right now and it really makes me appreciate the titles this "age" and left me with some interesting thoughts. In particular that in the next "age" since there is room for all sorts of levels of accessibility I think we'll see a move toward newer designs such as mentioned experimenting with win mechanics like Smash.
Again excellent job to Noah on this talk!
Good talk but I think Noah really underestimates the impact of having robust single-player story modes in fighting games. Ultimately every new FG out there that doesn't already have decades of nostalgic fans like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, or Tekken needs some way to loop in new players within a low-pressure environment. Single-player story modes allow players to become invested in characters not just mechanically, but also emotionally willing to spend many hours labbing to pull off their coolest looking moves and optimal combos. I guarantee anyone who developed a love for fighting games back in the 90s didn't know a single thing about frame data or plus on block, they just saw a character that they thought looked really cool and were from that point onward eager to put in the time to learn them because of that emotional connection. Now that the social aspect of arcades have mostly disappeared in the West, it's more important than ever to establish an environment where players can still stick around and have something interesting to do even when they've reached a momentary plateau in their skill level. If all there is to do in your new fighting game is Arcade Mode, 1v1 or Online Ranked, then your playerbase is going to be dead in a week because new players will have completed all your perfunctory SP content and run up against the competitive players who only care about PvP, with no buffer between.
I think he just understands fighting gamers better. I wish an accurate unbiased poll could be taken to show how many of us who *actually* spend money on these games and expansions really cared *at all* about a story mode. Most of the characters we already have an attachment to, most of the stories are *really* contrived (or worse) derivative of stories we already know and what I really care about is the game play. Let other games fill the story/power fantasy/imaginary friend roll as they already do. Street Fighter 2 hardly had any story at all and it started an entire *genre.* I could care less about the entirely too predicable (hey how much ya' wanna' bet someone dies, because if you can't write just kill a character and that will create auto-tension and "engagement," and yet the "good guys" still pull it out in the end?) plot lines, yet I get deeply invested in the depth and balance of the gameplay.
This is a huge reason why Smash Bros and to a lesser extent games like Blazblue with decent singleplayer content or alternate gamemodes were able to get so many people into fighters and sticking around, smash being known as a party game for kids is a testament to this. Not to mention good, intuative tutorials that cater to multiple learning types and don't have the pacing of a college textbook are pretty much non-existent in the genre. Strive and Uni deserve credit for their tutorials but they are still very informationally dense and feels like work to get through, not play. Just to make intentions clear I love mechanically complex fighters, I just think the onboarding process for new players should be as accessible, diverse and low stakes as possible.
@@mikejonesnoreallyThis mentality hurts the growth of the genre but I see where you're coming from. I personally only play online and it's because most singleplayer modes suck, especially in modern games. If developers make some engaging singleplayer content that without players realizing it, teaches them how to play the game, I'm pretty sure the silent majority of casual and even some competitive players would be stoked. I'm not talking about stories by the way, just singleplayer content and gamemodes, you're totally right in saying most FG stories are largely bland and derivative.
For Honor has really succeeded at adventuring into the experimental area. You can be introduced into the fighting game mechanics by playing their MOBA format that's more suitable to friendly casual experiences.
Great talk, loved the explanation of pros and cons for each point brought up. I think the most interesting takeaway was how the most popular games now are some with the most condensed amount of inputs. EVO 2019's most popular games were some with a great amount of depth without the complexity of mechanics. I think something the FGC has taken a lot of pride in is the complexity that comes with their games, which in turn hurts them because the more complex something is the harder it is to teach someone or grab someone's attention. I would say, I think something that was missed was the idea of the spectacle for big moves. While it is boring seeing a character's ultimate animation for the 256th time, for the winner/spectator, it becomes a much hypnotizing moment. These moves aren't really seen much as well since the moves are so risky and need proper setup for them.
Something else that would really help with accessibility is defining character themes to figure out what kind of character to play. Mario Tennis franchise does this by categorizing each character into 5 categories (All-Around, Power, Defense, Speed, Tricky) which allows people to translate those definitions across the roster and use those words to find who they might like right off the bat. While fighting games characters aren't beholden to certain play styles, their kits are designed a certain aspect. Veterans know which characters are designed to be spammy and campy (projectile and neutral focused), who are bulky powerhouses (large HP and slow, big hitting moves), and who focus around lightning fast combos etc. Defining that for newcomers might be another approach to help people not only learn the game, but also translate that knowledge into other fighting games.
Man. Seeing that SF4 trials screen gave me total PTSD! Some of those trials were incredibly difficult.
I remember fei long had a trial combo which was medium punch -> medium punch. Sounds easy... couldn't do it. Had to ask on forums how to do that stupid combo lol!
SFIV had a lot of 1-frame links. Even for good players, they require a lot of practice, so don't feel bad about yourself!
Lol fav'd comment. This got me back into fighting games then I took a long deserved break.
In a way, competitive Pokemon players can run up against the sorts of mental limitations that the last guy was talking about. There's not only a huge amount of data to internalize in terms of moves, character stats, items, builds, and team composition, there's also the behind-the-scenes damage calculation process which causes the in-game decision making to become feel-based/experience-based, rather than a simple matter of knowledge. It's not like those things can't be memorized, but there are just so many individual factors that it becomes impractical.
The same thing happens with chess when there is a more strict time limit. People can memorize certain openings and lines, but often the game gets into unexplored territory and people have to just play by feel and what board position just looks more appealing based on experience.
Yes, fighting games talk
47:40 This was a question that could use more of an answer (not blaming Noah for this, knowing every fighting game is not realistic). In the 90s, the "golden age of fighting games", many of the game are considered notoriously difficult to learn by modern. As Noah mentions in the talk, though, developers have been experimenting with approachability for a *long* time. Indeed, RNG was used in some of the most famous games of that era, specifically Darkstalkers 3: Vampires Savior(abbreviated "vsav") and Samurai Shodown 2 (abbreviated samsho2). It's hard to say whether this was to make the games more approachable, but I'm still gonna work with that assumption.
Samurai Shodown 2 has some loser in the background run by every once in a while to either throw a bomb (it deals damage if it hits you) or a chicken wing (heals you if you grab it). This makes for some moments where the playing field gets temporarily weighted in a way that can be capitalized on by either player. In this case I'd generally call it a wash in terms of making the game more approachable, though. A good player will capitalize off of it better, so it doesn't *really* make it easier to learn for new players.
In Vampire Savior, there is the mechanic of tech hit. I don't wanna get too technical in case this is being read by someone who isn't familiar with fighting game mechanics, but basically, if you hit buttons when you get blocked, you can press a button to have more of an advantage. The system that is in place, thought bases this on RNG. So the button that gives you the highest chance of advantage also gives you the least advantage. So, on paper, this seems like a decent system to help newcomers. If they are mashing buttons on block, they will find themselves having more advantage. However, what instead ends up happening is that the skill ceiling is raised dramatically, because it turns out that there is an optimal sequence of buttons that you need to press in order to maximize your chances of getting the best possible tech hit. So every single time that you block a move, you should be able to input that specific, rather intricate sequence of button presses.
More recently of course, there are characters like Faust or Zappa from Guilty Gear who have elements of randomness in their kits, and have to learn how to play around it. In these cases however, the randomness is usually something that makes the character harder to learn, because you need to be able to adapt quickly to elements that are out of your control.
You can see a character like Hero in the recent Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, where they gave him the potential to land a critical hit on any smash attack. This instead became so unpopular among the player base that some TOs have flat-out banned the character, because he was seen as potentially undermining the legitimacy of competitive play.
To summarize: Adding RNG to fighting games is something that needs to be considered *very* carefully. It's very difficult to find a spot where you aren't increasing complexity for new players, or possibly undermining the very things that make fighting games appealing. You can easily make the case that a game where RNG is a significant factor in deciding the winner is *by definition* not a fighting game, based on the criteria that Noah established in the beginning. I think that there is definitely room for experimentation on this, indeed, something as basic as button mashing is itself a kind of RNG-based playing style, but finding a solid spot for the RNG might just be more of a chore than it's worth at the end of the day.
RNG in other games have rarely ever hurt the competitive integrity of the game because it's never about the RNG but rather the variance. Dota 2 has random crits but with built in protection to mitigate variance. CSGO has bloom and first bullet RNG but only to discourage movement and as an alternative to damage fall off. Warcraft 3 had random items but they forced you into making a decision. That's how Hero's command menu works to begin with and I think that's fine, though some spells are way too powerful and just increases the variance. Since I (and I'm assuming everyone else for that matter) don't know if Hero's crit mechanic has an RNG protection like Dota 2 I won't say it's unacceptable. What's important is that you mitigate variance.
I love this post.
You should try Hisoutensoku. It's a anime fighter with a meter system linked to cards in a deck you build before the match with some cards being supers, others powering up/giving you new specials and some universal ones that act like system mechanics. Of course it's not perfectly balanced but having the rng of drawing cards connected to all of your character's strengths makes for a extremely unique experience that is very replayable. This and some other unique universal mechanics (universal 8-directional flight tied to your special attack meter, cycling field effects etc) make it very much worth trying for anyone curious about thinking outside the box of conventional fighting game design.
The idea of making combos a bit easier actually reminds me of my experience with Skullgirls. I picked it up recently, went into Training Mode to try out a few characters, and discovered that it’s very easy to chain a couple lights into a medium or two and into a heavy. I’m very much a noob when it comes to fighting games, but I felt like I had discovered a really strong beginner’s combo all on my own.
I had the exact same experience many years ago discovering gattlings in Xrd!
I have just finished my first ranked match un fantasy strike , man that fighting game is a blast
Oh snap! New vid! Thank you for posting!
In terms of execution there a certainly some arguments that could be said for accessibility but I think readability is the next thing that needs to evolve in fighting games moving forward.
Fantasy Strike is probably the best example. You literally see your hit points, there are visual indicators that cue you in on invulnerability, and armor.The game literally tells you that a command throw is jump-able. Those are the kind of things in my opinion that help with accessibility.
I still find that basic tutorials are not very effective for getting you to understand the game or your character as a whole, but I found under night in-births exe:late[st] to be very detailed to the point that if someone spent a few times going over it they'll have a clearer understanding of fighting games in general.
That game is still heavy on the execution and it's a very offensive game but they at least make an effort to not throw you in blind.
Another thing Fantasy Strike tells you: Frame Advantage! The hit sparks communicate frame advantage, dynamically in real time as you play. This ought to be industry standard.
Fighting games need tutorials and to guide players from when they start, to the point where they are accomplishing the reason they started playing, including people doing well in tournaments and ranked mode. We haven't seen that yet. Not even in Fantasy Strike.
@@O1OO1O1 I agree tutorials need to be better guides but I think readability definitely plays into that as well. Fantasy Strike may not have the most elaborate tutorial but if you are deciding to forgo the tutorial and just figure things out on your own, there are more things that you may pay attention to the more you play. There are a few more things I felt like Fantasy Strike could have done to make their tutorial even better and I do think they missed a good opportunity hopefully they'll improve it.
'Blades of Gory' simplifies the fighting genre with only 3 attacks covering long, mid and close ranges, whilst adding complexity in the blocking (each attack requires a specific block). With no jump or duck it condenses the fighting game to a mastery of range , timing and accurate blocking to create counter opportunities.
Pocket Fighter included gem drops that power up specific moves. This was a form of randomness.
I'm a first timer player in smash and after playing some time and watching TH-cam videos I realize the game is short hop centric where you can't expand your move set if can't do the short hop
You're right, you can get a rough estimate of a player's skill level based on how and when they short hop
@@toyinbode4368 I think the best way not to be training slave in short hop would be to have a dedicated button for short hop instead of pressing two buttons jump button to short hop
@@athlonzero yeah they literally have two jump buttons. Why can't one be the short hop button.
I still struggle to understand what people found so difficult about parrying in SF3. I remember hearing that rhetoric constantly when SF4 was released and it made no sense even back then. Instead of holding back to block an attack, you tap forward at the moment of impact. It negates all chip damage if timed right and leaves you open to counter attack. That's it. It's a dead simple risk/reward system. Why it got vilified and used a scapegoat for how "complex" fighting games had gotten, I'll never know.
My best guess is just the timing of it. It was 10 frames, if I remember correctly.
The most impressive thing is, that the guy who talked about the injustice 2 staff, do make a GDC talk the next year🤣
11:28 those words should be written on stone.
FGC games need: Rollback + Matchmaking + Spectator/Streamer mode.
RE: Fantasy Strike - If you're killing the "crouch" input, why aren't you just changing BLOCK to down, instead?
I'm tinkering with a PICO-8 demake of a FG concept, and I'm replacing jumps with "up to block."
Really good content! It's interesting that Tekken isn't highlighted more often. I enjoyed SF, but I enjoyed the range that Tekken has.
He mentions Tekken like once but killer instinct about 10 times. Definitely biased and sounds like he is salty that killer instinct didn’t take off like Tekken 7 or sf4. But yeah Tekken 7 is the goat.
Here's my anecdote: I recently bought blazblu central fiction and spent some time practicing moves so I can play single player. I haven't played single player yet. I also just bought Fantasy Strike last week and am feeling good with 2 characters and am playing online. There's plenty of depth to the moves and the game strategy and I'm having a blast. I'd be open to some moves requiring minor joystick inputs like a hadoken or a left-right or down-up. I want to try blazblu again at some point but I gotta say the tree of this move can combo I to this move or if you're in the air this move etc really makes my eyes glaze over. For now I'll just keep loving my fantasy strike and I've barely scratched the surface
Wow, are there like a lot of FS devs here or something, because other than here, I never hear about that game. *Thankfully.* If I want to play a one note brain spark that humps Street Fighter's leg endlessly and since it's inception, I have "K"oF for that. :3 Actually I don't but I do have SS, close enough without the god awful.
@@mikejonesnoreally I'm just a happy customer that wants to spread the good work so other people can learn about it and give it a try.
@@mikejonesnoreally Your treatment of Fantasy Strike is both unwarranted and also shows how little you understand about the game, the thinking behind it's design, and fighting games in general. More accurate would be to say, "I really don't like Fantasy Strike, for reasons that aren't very logical."
There are likely a lot of Fantasy Strike players here because for _decades_, people who love fighting games haven't had something like Fantasy Strike up till now, and we're interested and invested in this new more accessible direction the genre is taking because it means we can enjoy the games, and so can more people who've never played them.
Hey Bruce, did you hear about that hype FS tournament at EVO with the huge prize pool? Right. Neither did anyone else. You can tell everything I know about fighting games from *one* paragraph? Um, no. I don't like fantasy strike for reasons to do with not liking copycats. You *really* think subjective opinions have anything to do with *logic?* They don't becuase they can't, so speak for *yourself* because other than thus shilapalooza, I don't see anyone talking about fantasy strike.
mikejonesnoreally I look forward to hearing about that tournament at EVO 2020 which is why I'm trying to help people learn about FS and try it out. Positivity. You should try some of it some time
Virtua fighter 5 is my favorite fighting game because the controls are intuitive but it’s not just button mashing
I didn’t even know he mentioned vf5
So many good points made. I love how he challenges the assumption that we need features to get people to play these games. "Evo moment 37 did more to get people playing fighting games than any cutscene." Many times devs and even players forget that a checklist on the back of the box only gets you to buy the game not keep playing it. And he is probably one of the only people I've heard to differentiate retention from accessibility. He also confronts the idea that fighting games are inherently difficult to get into because of their 1v1 mostly skill based nature. This is something people entrenched in fighting games will never understand and while he brings up SCII, that's also kinda lost its ground in the 1v1 realm and its design space is endless allowing several people to have fun at once in different modes. I also love how he rejects the idea that execution is some barrier before you can play the game. In the context of fighting games I've often heard this rhetoric that people don't want to practice motion inputs before they can "play the game". And Day9 already said it in his rant about BW which is one of the most mechanically demanding game. "You're already playing the game."
The FGC has kinda ruined the image of fighting games as promoting it as this though but rewarding thing to play and it turns a lot of people off and it doesn't help because of the inherent problem that when player bases are small it's harder for new people to find fair matches. I never even realized some games tell you to go fight before completing your training. That's such a nice thing to tell players. And he's right often players fall into the training trap and devs are way too happy to design training modes to keep you in that trap and players both casuals and hardcore are too quick to praise this but data shows that maybe not everyone makes it past the tutorial. If there is one thing the game should teach you it's that it's ok to lose. You gain more about how the game works by playing real matches. Just focus on your decision making, the "real game", all the other things, combos, hit confirms, mixups, reacting to overheads, these things will come naturally provided you have the basic idea of how they work. This is why I think fighting games don't need to be simplified. You will learn mechanics eventually either through experimentation or playing the game creating a desire to enjoy learn it.
I'm extremely disappointed that no one talked about Dojos from SFV. Sure it hasn't taken off but I think the key to player retention may lie in creating a community there. Insert talk about intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards here. Sure the age we live in is one of streamers and reddit shit posting but clans were such an integral part of creating community back in the early days of gaming. Your favorite esports team is probably from an old clan and in a lot of ways it's trying to mimic the local arcades of creating community and finding regulars.
"Evo moment 37 did more to get people playing fighting games than any cutscene.
*doubt*
But the execution barrier is so, so true though. Name one other genre that requires hours of physical dexterity practice in order to use a basic action.
Yeah, it's a turnoff for countless people.
Most games take no more than 2 minutes to learn how to perform an action; the challenge is in how to use that action effectively. Fighting games tend to take longer, and require just as much practice for both steps - for dozens of characters. Just to use their tools. That is not like learning how to play Super Mario.
This is something that veteran players often take for granted.
The amount of time it takes to "naturally" learn the ins and outs of a fighting game generally far exceeds the time it takes in, say, a platformer, shooter, RPG, racing game, etc. Some of that complexity just comes with the territory, and that's fine. But part of it is simply tradition in the fighting genre, and mostly only exists because it always has.
Until developers start to realize WHY and HOW the fighting genre is different from literally every other genre, they're not going to make much progress in dissecting how to make it more approachable for people who play those other genres.
dang this dude gave a shot out to lightning bolt? sick
namedropping Ornette Coleman and Lightning Bolt!!! nice
Part of me wonders how much of a fighting game's ability to remain approachable depends on how much of a cultural force it is beyond the scope of a dedicated playerbase. Consistently, I see people compare what they see in fighting games to what they've been exposed to through either Street Fighter or Smash, and games that fall in an area where they aren't similar enough to those launch points end up becoming a large challenge for many players. One way I have seen this alleviated is by using a different medium for a fighting game: Smash Bros for instance can be compared to horseplay where you have to wrestle the other guy off the couch, or in extreme cases a game like Mario Tennis Aces uses the sport of tennis to create an environment where learning concepts is steeped in real world logic. This takes advantage of the fact that the average person is more likely to know what a 'backhand' is as opposed to a 'low'. It even works as a way to broach far more complex topics: the concept of the Neutral Game is something I struggled to explain to anyone without a fighting game background, but the minute I tried to explain it to a friend through Aces, they understood it as the rallying phase of the game, and that's now my go-to comparison even outside of that specific game.
I can't see this genre growing a lot without getting cheaper. Look at all the big games out there. They're all free-to-play titles with relatively friendly monetization models. How do fighting game devs expect people to get into the genre (or their specific game) if it's locked behind at least $60 + several $20 Season Passes..
FGs need to adapt, and I'm hopeful Riot's Project L will do a good job at this exact thing.
“Relatively friendly monetization” lol no. The price of these games is barely an issue because the people who are interested in fighting game’s will buy them. The real problem is the lack of accessibility that loses them the people who showed any interest.
@@SnakeBitten you really don't think that a $0 game won't have *significantly* more people willing to try it than a $60 game? Aight.
@@bert6236 willingness to try it isn’t the issue. The problem is retention. Fighting games are inherently appealing, but if people can’t get into it it won’t matter how many people try it.
all these fantastic GDC talks and low video quality and bad sound!!
3:00 What's the game in the lower right, with the green logo? I can't read the text cuz it's too small lol
King of fighters 11 i think
It's kof11. Best and most popular with98 and 2002
RPG mechanics and collectibles are fantastic for single-player content, but terrible for multiplayer/online content
I play street fighter a lot on my nes. And we still Play mortal kombat X, it’s the closest game like the oldschool once, from the feeling.
I've had this video on my watch later list emsincr I first made my TH-cam account many years ago and I've finally managed to make time and watch it. I'm incredibly disappointed.
And my god, 4/5 questions the guy relates smash bros in the answer, I knew something was up the moment he grouped it along fighting games. Simply awful.
Edit: also so much contradicting, he says he dislikes mobile games because of how simplified they are... But when smash bits does it, he praises it. There's many more examples of him glazing SB but I'm not going to bother with this anymore.
I think that accessibility isn't really the problem. League of Legends is riddled with weird, unintuitive mechanics but that doesn't stop it from gaining new players. Young gamers are smart. The problem with fighting games is that it's an old genre. It's tied to a specific culture and the stuff those people like.
@@Relptica__ Combos and inputs are generally the easy part of any fighting game, especially the basic inputs that represents no problem at all for any mid-low player. The real hard part of fighting games is being able to play in the neutral and being able to land a hit to go into combo, and being able to maximize any opening.
This requires a slow understanding of spacing and how to approach, in any case a fighting game is always fundamentally based on the players being willing to spend the time to train and understand it. If you remove that part you're basically taking the main appeal away from the genre.
LoL is already a lot better than Dota in this regard.
@@Luca-sl7tb Except those things that you say are easy are only easy to experienced players and not beginners and thus barrier of entry is higher
"I think that accessibility isn't really the problem." Want to know the #1 reason I've stopped playing the 10+ fighting games I've played? Accessibility.
It's a problem. There are others, however.
@@O1OO1O1 no, accessibility was never a problem.
Fighting games are one of the easiest games to understand, you press a button to do an attack, input a command to do a stronger attack, get opponents health to 0 of lower then yours before timer runs out to win.
And intact all modern fighters tutorials will even teach you about system mechanics, characters specific mechanics, moves property in the move list and sample combos for you to learn. What the game doesn't teach is how to win because that's up to the players, unlike mobas and other team based game there's nobody to carry you if you're mediocre and if you do not want to put in any effort to improve then though luck this genre might not be the genre for you.
considering people like brollylegs can compete at a high level without the ability to use his limbs, this genre has always been about self improvement dumbing it down would do nothing for most that want to win because what it only does is to let those that are already good at the genre and constantly self improving to still always win.
Games like fantasy strike only seems to be accessible is all down to the fact that the majority players of the genre doesn't play it. In fact if in a hypothetical situation where FS is the only game the situation would be worst because you will get the 2019 EVO ShamSho top 8 situation where the oldest of the top players would dominate because the game has been strip down of its complexity and those with better fundamentals would lay waste to anyone trying to get in
This kind of thinking reminds me that book Kurt Vonnegut should the strongest people have to be handicap forced to wear extra weight belts because of their strength intelligent forced to wear sound distracting headphones to stop them from thinking since we can't raise people up to the higher standards that would be too difficult we have to bring down those that have exceptional abilities to lower expectations because of "fairness" that's not reality, in the end all you're doing is showing highlighting the other people's shortcomings and weaknesses it's showing that they cannot compete at the higher level and they never will so we have to lower the standards for a false sense for fair play
Anime pfp as always. Touch some grass
@@АртёмТор-к2ю A non-sequitur and a regurgitated phrase - typical ...
Fighting games really is my country and rap (and i do listen to those as well)
This is rare that I see a GDC talk uploaded that was not well-thought out at all.
For beginners, the explanations are vague and too wordy. For the initiated, they are almost completely redundant. I'm in a middle of 1 hour explanation non-stop, I see a dozen of games cited and no particular problem or solution explained to me (they are cited as well, but we jump ships all the time and don't stop for conclusions). This is a random scatter of thoughts that then got a bit structured, but we're spoiled with GDC talkers that choreograph their thoughts beautifully.
Love fighting games, very interested in them, very interested in theory and digging for the truth and still was really bored.
David Sirlin has good content about the design of them over at his website, and he also had some good free podcasts about the design of his recent fighting game on his Patreon.
just watch coreAgaming vids, it's much much better
I agree that this wasn’t a great talk. He works at the studio that makes killer instinct and he just kept referencing it as a game that does things well, but the game never took off in an impressive way. So it’s a person giving a speech on how to make a fighting coming from a person who hasn’t made a good fighting game.
SFV is garbage
The worst of modern hack and slash and fighting games is the annoyance of seeing flashy, flushy particle effects everywhere.
I love flashy flashy particle effects everywhere!!
In terms of accessibility you simply add mechanics as the person levels up. Chess is extremely complicated certain games are not for everybody. If you’re looking for money fighting games without ip like dbz are not worth doing. People want to win they will play absolutely dirty without remorse. It’s actually a type of stress people are enjoying, there will never be a mainstream fighting game.
DorjeDriftwood That's already how fighting games work. In fact that's how skill/strategy games work in general. As a player becomes more experienced, more mechanics are opened up to them and they improve at the game. Unless you mean some hardcoded level system and the witholding of game mechanics until the required level is met.
"there will never be a mainstream fighting game." - Here comes a new challenger: RIOT's fighting game
Chess has maybe a dozen rules at most children can learn it. The properties of a single attack in a fighting game is more complicated than chess.
'Combos' are what put me off fighting games.
In what way? I know it's been three years but could you elaborate?
Not a dark age I’m a tekken and soul calibur player, for me it was a golden age for me.
He says it's a total misnomer, did you not make it mere seconds later?
It was definitely the dark ages for the competitive scene of fighting games and the popularity of the genre as a whole. New games might have come out, but tournament struggled while FPSs and new genres took the place of fighting games as the main games for casual masses.
@@Luca-sl7tb I think that what is fashionable today is to take a gun and kill, and nobody fights with a clean hand. then it is no coincidence that youth prefer FPS ... before if they fought in the street with their fists
@CLANG CLANG CLANG CLANG Perhaps another r-word would fit to describe him.
@@AirLancer Reactionary 🙃
Thanks for a good talk. I feel like it was pretty good but didn't address some things.
-Endless DLC, grinding to unlock the full game: The new DOA costs like 1000 dollars to buy the full game. MK11 is much the same.
-Overly mature graphics: I don't mind some stuff, but I play these games with my kids mainly.
-Most fighting games target the same market audience. Smash Bros. does a good job breaking the mold, and it is very successful.
"Most fighting games target the same market audience. Smash Bros. does a good job breaking the mold, and it is very successful."
Totally agree. Smash Bros. does it so well that most people don't even regard it as a fighting game!
"Overly mature graphics: I don't mind some stuff, but I play these games with my kids mainly."
Yeah, I think we should seriously be banning games like the recent Mortal Kombat and it's excessive violence pornography. It's almost pathological.
That's a problem for players ALREADY the FGC, not players TRYING to get in.
@@downsjmmyjones101 I'd say that the DLC problem is something that affects new players because when you're looking for a game and you see a mountain of dlc on an already full price game it can be extremely discouraging.
@@biggestbungus1295 I don't see how. What does a lot of DLC have to do with anyth8ng?
@@O1OO1O1 Don't ban gore in Mortal Kombat ffs, it's half of what the franchise is known for! At least make a toggle so we get to choose - I think one of the MK games did something like that
Does this guy just simply shy away from 3D fighting games altogether? Or did he live through that so called "dark age" alone? As I don't recognize this sentiment in that regard thanks to franchises like Virtua Fighter and Dead or Alive
He said it was a misnomer in the talk and that many great games came out during that time.
What iz vitual faita?
It was only a dark age to people who ONLY like Street Fighter
right when he first mentioned the "dark age" he literally pointed out how there were many great games in that period. Did you not watch 30 seconds more of the video before commenting?
Execution is the sole reason people play fighting games.
With league, you can watch Faker one shot someone with Le Blank and as long as you have played her at all, you know how he did it, even if you also know you're not skilled enough to pull it off. In a fighting game, well fuck, even if you've memorized the move list, it's still a mystery how those professional games work.
It's a mystery what what le blank is even if u have played faker as u may be unable to hit someone with it or they just don't die in one hit when ur use her urself
It's so much more easier to know what a random character of League does as their so few of them compared to FGs right and their moves are so much simpler with their lines of text and specific uses
why no idea I gusss it's just how those professional games work
The quest to make every game accessable has turned games into movies, let's be honest, red dead redemption, Uncharted and it's ilk have "expanded the gaming audience" but it did so to people who don't like videogames, aka they hate participation, challenge and mastery. This is what seperates the first generation of gamers and/or "true" type gamers, from passive gamers who see games as hollywood general entertainment.
When game devs and publishers attracted essentially what amounts to "non gamers" or "tenuous gamers" to the hobby, the people who whine about the participatory aspects of games. That means much of the modern gaming audience aren't really looking for gaming experiences anymore. They're looking for software themepark rides labelled games, but aren't really videogames in the traditional sense. More a glorified movie with minor participation elements, something closer to a highly scripted quick time event then a videogame.
"The quest to make every game accessable has turned games into movies, let's be honest, red dead redemption, Uncharted and it's ilk have "expanded the gaming audience" but it did so to people who don't like videogames, aka they hate participation, challenge and mastery. This is what seperates the first generation of gamers and/or "true" type gamers, from passive gamers who see games as hollywood general entertainment."
I actually agree with that. Hence the term "casual gamer." A better term is probably "mainstream gamer."
I think it's fine to have both types of games. I even enjoy some of those games, like God of War. Though I also think fighting games have players who would like the genre a lot out there, who simply don't know they like it because of barriers to entry (both price as well as accessibility issues), and the difficulty and stress of getting better. Once those issues are solved, and they get the business stuff right to ensure it reaches enough people, I think we'll see a game that is significantly popular. Smash has done it pretty well, but it's not very traditional. Fantasy Strike got accessibility right, but didn't address the challenge and stress of getting better, and didn't reach a large enough audience. I think something else will come along and solve it, one day.
Accessibility should focus more on tutorials and integration with online guides to understand the meta of the game and the intricacies of the characters rather than simplification, either of inputs or mechanics, that are just going to hurt the fans of the genre in the hope of attracting a casual audience that's mostly just not interested in competitive gameplay.
The simplification of inputs in particular is a complete waste of time nowadays and needs to stop, it's crazy that in SFV inputs like Charge Supers and SPDs are almost entirely gone when there already are input shortcuts that make all that stuff very easy to do (if only the game told you how to do, which leads back to the need of good tutorials over simplification). Removing traditional inputs, which were designed purposefully in a certain way and affects regular gameplay very seriously, should not be what developers focus on (and in Street Fighter's case returned to how they were in IV), keep the mechanical depth intact and make stuff easier to learn for the people who are interested in learning instead.
Accessible inputs is by no means a waste of time. It changes the accessibility of a game completely. I haven't played SFV; it seems to have done it poorly, based on reports. Though maybe not, and people just think that easier controls = less depth, which isn't true.
I agree that there should be more focus on helping players improve, but some players can only do that effectively if the game is accessible enough. 1 to 3 frame links? Not accessible. 360 degree motions to a special you do multiple times during a game? Not accessible. Not even needed. Fantasy Strike shows that the "reasons for high-dexterity inputs" are largely unnecessary and there are other ways to do it that don't negatively impact depth or fun.
No man: fighting games are based on an equal amount of mind games and mechanical execution ability, the physical ability to pull hard combos and complex series of inputs off is one of the uniquenesses of the genre, remove that and you make fighting games simply lesser.
Fantasy Strike doesn't show anything because it's a crap game no one takes seriously.
And inputs have already been simplified enough: 1 frame links don't exist anymore in Street Fighter and 3 frame links are within anyone's ability to do, 360 degree motions don't require the full circle to work because a half circle + any up will work as well.
Sf4 has shortcuts.
@@Luca-sl7tb Uniqueness =/= quality
@@dandre3K No, quality is quality, so don't mess with quality.
I wish he actually explained how some of those randomness abilities worked so the audience can understand. When you just say "Mr.Game & Watch" you just confuse people.
If you know you know, if you don't, find out yourself and don't expect every little detail to be spoon-fed to you.
@@Lucas-kn4zu So if I go to a lecture about Spoon's (I have never seen a spoon in my life or have never heard of one) and you tell me "The spoon's curvature is unique and used for many purposes" and I ask "Could you explain what they're used for or why it's curved like that?" And you tell me "Go find out yourself don't expect every detail to be spoon fed to you" You're absolutely getting fired.
@@matthewmorrison3745 That is an absurdly stupid analogy to make - this guy clearly did not elaborate on Mr. Game & Watch because, presumably, most people at the lecture will know what he means considering it is a lecture *about fighting games*. Not everyone will know, sure, but he only had an hour to go through the lecture, do you really think he would explain and break-down every little thing so that he is sure that absolutely everyone will know every little detail about every game he talks about? That isn't an efficient way to go about a lecture, and it isn't a lecture about the history of fighting games either - it is about accessibility in fighting games, so he would be going on tangents that are not important to the topic at all. Mr. Game & Watch's random luck element has *nothing* to do with the topic of the lecture, so why would he explain it? More importantly, why do you care that he did not explain a small detail that has nothing to do with the topic of the lecture?
You really aren't very bright, are you?
@@Lucas-kn4zu Try talking to someone without insulting them, it'll take you far I promise.
@UCse4MslBw94BQDSHqczrN7w Once again, you completely miss the point - it is not a lecture teaching about the history of fighting games/fighting games characters, it is a lecture about *accessibility in fighting games.* Talking about Mr. Game & Watch's random luck element is not important or even relevant to the topic, so why would he waste time going into detail about it? It baffles me that you cannot understand this and that I have to explain this twice - it really is quite simple, and I reserve the right to insult you for being so thick in the skull. If it was important, he would have elaborated on it, as he did with examples he gave that were actually relevant to the topic.
If you were complaining about him not being clear about something specific to the topic, then we would not even be having this conversation, and I would think your complaint was totally justified and understandable. But instead you are complaining about something that does not even matter, is not relevant to the topic, and is totally inconsequential. This is such a retarded & annoying nitpick, yet you lack the self-awareness to see why it is, so you think your complaint is completely justified and important. Which is just so obnoxious, to be honest.
accessibility is not desirable. making things more buttons mashy and cuter is lame.
Accessibility is not making things more buttons mashy and cuter is lame. Try button mashing in Fantasy Strike. You'll lose quickly and consistently.