I agree mine is still a lot of fun. If you are the type of person that needs to be the fastest in your group than you are probably looking at $30k machines instead of $20k machines anyway.
What you've described only applies to trailing arm cars, where the mass pivots about the trailing arm bolt. Both TalonR and YXZ have an instant center determined by the intersection of upper and lower arms
What you re talking about only affected the wheel radius movement. The wheel move like if you have a longer trailing arm but the force apply to the frame are still on the same spot on the frame, and it s worse than a single pivot arm because a part of the force push upper on the frame which is even higher to the center of gravity. If you talk to anyone who ride talon x and r, they will tell you that the talon r buck worse than the x
Could you please explain a Bit which problems you Had and how you changed your driving Style. Would you still recommend the YXZ ? I wanted to buy one but Not sure anymore. But I will Not Drive on dumpy Tracks, only fast driving on flat Sand
@@all_out_of_bubble_gum id buy one still and shift weight behind the engine, put long travel with more spring for the weight in the rear. When you jump or go into whoops stay on the gas carrying your momentum. Have enough pedal left to rev higher and not hit the limiter so the extra gear left over is not taxing the drive train. Getting the front off the ground hitting the throttle through the top of terrain allows les bumpsteer and momentum. Also moving weight whips the ass end around easily
Awesome video and thank you. Coming from a RZR 1000. Sold it and bouncing around looking at something new.... I do more logging roads and playing in the hills. I've been looking at the Talon X.... but after watching these videos I'm starting to lean towards the KRX...
Makes sense on rzr and x3, it's like a ladder bar. The talon looks like a 4 link that will be affected by the intersecting points and the yxz should only be affected by the mounting angle of the a arms not the length.
@@ShockTherapyllc why do you think Honda designed the suspension this way if it's so bad? There must be a reason or some tradeoff they took into consideration? I would really love an answer to this if you could provide some input.
@@sirgriffinman I asked them they didn't say. I asked Fox and they said that Honda did a massive market study and wanted the car exactly like this. Maybe they felt it fit a specific spot in the market, maybe they wanted a more nimble car at the expense of big rough stuff? Not sure if I agree with that at all since I feel you can do both. Another interesting fact is that this cars development was started in 2013. At that time this would have been an amazing car but it took them so long to bring it to market I feel that it was passed up in a lot of ways by the others. That's all I can offer for a reason.
Great video. So that's why she bucks like a mule over the whoops. I did notice a slight difference when we put the spare tire carrier in the rear (slight).
your going to have to google that one. There is a process, four corner weights, adding 100 lbs to one side, checking degree of lean, same on other side, then lots of math.
@@ShockTherapyllc So if you don't know each of the vehicles center of gravity, then how do you know where each's line of force intersects with their center of gravity. You just can't assume a random red dot for each's center of gravity, right??
pkmiller77 you are correct. But you can find the balance point with a jack in 10 min. Also most vertical balance points are between the crank centerline and the head so there is only a 8” height variance there. This is close enough to get an idea of what’s going on. Lastly having driven them all as well as most class 1 and class 10 chassis that are rear engine and mid engine I know what it feels like when this is creating problems. The exact point of CG was not my point with the video. Only the science of it and that it exists on cars we all drive. Just something to consider.
Great videos. Thank you. Can’t wait to get an xp pro and bring it to the shop to get suspension set up. Probably before I even drive. Coming from Coos bay Oregon just for that.
@@kenwaddle58 When Jaime Campbell won in '20 (crossed the line in physical 1st all UTVs) they reworked the stock shocks, geo was stock, etc. The chassis, arms, etc were all custom built, obviously. It was a 4 seat chassis, btw. That's what the Honda factory team is doing now, as well. You can set up a Talon to run whoops like an animal without extending the wheelbase.
Thank you for your great info. I was going to buy the wrong toy right up until I started watching your videos. Does having a 4 seater change much in the way of ride?
Any time. Four seat cars are better in the rough due to timing of the whoops and wheel base but the geometry in the back is not changed. If the rear is a problem it will be with longer wheel base too
I have a 2019 YXZ 1000R SS SE that seems to do great through the whoops (hitting good sized whoops between 40-50mph). I do a lot of SoCal ripping in the open desert (Lucerne area). I have heard that the 2016 - 2018 buck quite a bit, but the 2019+ YXZ's seem to do better. Is this purely thru shock tuning (rebound adjustment like you spoke of)?
Yes it is. The geometry is identical. The only difference is the shock tune controlling that rebound a bit more. Try rear weight as much as you can. Possibly a spare tire off the back even if it is just temporary. You will be amazed at the difference through the rough.
Thank you! That’s definitely interesting. I come from a dirt bike background and have been very impressed with the YXZ’s composure thru the rough, for being bone stock. It would be sweet to get some more high-speed handling out of it. Now just need to get me a spare tire rack to experiment
What would happen in say a 4 seat KRX with only two passengers in the front seats? Center of gravity would be forward in the car. Could it still buck in the whoops bc center of gravity is forward vs a 2 seat KRX?
Your theory is correct. But it would take a lot of weight to do it. But it’s true the longer the wheel base the more that passenger front weight is an issue
I'm hoping not all is lost for my talon x4 live valve. Hopefully between the length of my car but with a shorter trailing arm there's still some decent ride to achieve out of it.
Is the center of gravity the same thing as the center of balance point? Why is the center point not at the same elevation as the pivot point, what dictates that this is half way up the car? Very glad you explained this topic, love the live feeds.
CG is not the same as balance point. BP is on the bottom of the car like the pivot but just denotes where you can balance the car. CG is this point combined with the vertical balance point. There are formulas to figure this out but for general purposes it is usually between the crank shaft center line and the bottom of the head from a height stand point.
Great info as usual! I have a RS1and XP Turbo ...Both still stock suspension, saving for Dual Rate Spring Kits. The RS1 and Turbo seem to be pretty good through the woops and jumps so my question heads in a different direction. Considering "center of gravity" and my nervousness on real steep hill climbs, which I tend to hit a lot with my crazy X3 buds, which suspension do you feel works best between different manufacturers in the combination of forward drive force and front end lift under hard throttle on hills(rolling it over backwards) Which seems to be better balanced for very steep hills or in your area , I guess dunes or steep rock climbs?
keep in mind that I don't do much steep rock crawling but the X3 has always seemed to have a lower center of gravity and better forward drive force than the RS1 and XP turbo.
Hi Great video and information after viewing this I am a lil scared to ask but really wonder what u think of the geometry on the new 2021 cfmoto 950 sport
Moving CG rearward will take weight / traction off the front tires so keep that in mind. If you climb anything steep you will want to be careful with the CofG.
I would love to see your YXZ sway bar in action! Where I live there is no woops, corn fields and woods, lol, I'd really like to get it to corner better with speed. Also, will your swap bar work with a bumper mounted winch?
You would love the cornering with one. I am not sure about the clearance on that. Take a look at some of our pics on a car on the site. See if you can see a possible issue.
I have a 2017 Can Am Maverick 1000r Turbo. After watching this video, I am wondering if purchasing the: "Dual Rate Spring Kit (DRS) 2015-17 Can Am Maverick DPS Turbo 2.5 Fox - 2 Seat" will do much? I live in PHX & ride all over AZ & the dunes @ Glamis. What can I realistically expect after getting some Shock Therapy?
Longer is better fir the whoops. Longer is bad for line of Force. These cancel each other out and make it about the same as a two seater through the rough. Car file a newby depends on where your driving. Check out our “ what UTV to buy” video about 20 videos back.
Tons of knowledge. Ive heard u say the general is your newest favorite. Can you do a segment on the general? Hows the general a arms compare to trailing arms? Great work and love the vidoes!
Thank you. Yes we will be doing a feed on the general but have to wait till we are done testing. It is my new “temporary “ favorite as that changes often with me. Lol. I like it because it is a cruiser that works surprisingly well through the rough. Is it a turbo S or Pro, no but it’s got AC, heater,sealed cab and soon to have a full bar so how can you not like that. Trailing arms are better than a arms in the rough but this thing will still surprise you.
Great video love the technical stuff had me thinking about your comment Justin as to why you prefer the suspension on the krx over the xx in the na category
If you would have only talked to honda talon engineering on the geometry of the rear trailing arms length and center of gravity on this car i would be able to enjoy it while riding on whoops. Thanks for making this more understandable on bucking.
Excellent explanation of the geometry differences and effects! I love understanding the science. I would like to see something like this on springs that explains the relationship between spring rate and free length and the affect they have on ride characteristics. (I hope I used effect and affect correctly)
Awsome video, requested this video on your, wich one to buy, video. totally understood now . Have you ever considered building your own production machine, or collaborating with can am ?
Too bad I missed this.... you’re talking about high speed riding...up here in the pnw we mostly have slower technical riding with lots of crawling...how would this apply to that? I’m asking because I’m going back and forth between a krx and an x3.... and both dealers already roll their eyes when I roll up to the store.
The Krx would be better for ur type of riding it’s a bigger more comfortable car the krx has a better low speed clutch engagement and the krx has a stronger chassis
I just picked up a 2019 yxz1000r ss se... My favorite thing about my machine is the suspension... (im no professional like you guys so I didn't comment on this video but this past weekend I drove the 2020 polaris xp pro turbo with active suspension i wasn't overly impressed) To me... It sounds like we are comparing a hellcat challenger vs a hellcat red eye challenger...
Curious how this line of force law applies to an “ideally suspended ” 4 seater like a RZR or X3 vs the inferior 4 seater Honda? Second question, how would running a 4 seater with 2 people vs 4 people affect this? @shocktherapy
I am not sure what you mean comparing the RZR, X3 to the 4 seat Honda since the video pretty much shows how that would go between those cars due to arm length. But if you mean 4 seat vrs 4 seat then the problem gets worse as the car gets longer for a Honda. Longer the car, farther forward the CG gets. Conversely the longer wheel base tends to do better in the whoops due to timing in the whoops. This is not enough of an advantage to over come the geometry negative. A four seater with two people will move the CG forward a lot. 4 people might move the CG back again. Probably should see where it moves with a jack some time to confirm this but my guess is it would be slightly better with 4 people in the car than two.
Your going to have to google that one. There is a process, four corner weights, adding 100 lbs to one side, checking degree of lean, same on other side, then lots of math.
Having owned a yxz and putting 2700 miles on it I can tell you they buck more than a Mexican bull. For the most part I liked it but it was miserable over big whoops and on jumps where it nose dived like a kamikaze pilot. Traded her in for an X3. While the Yamaha is a better built unit it just can't overcome the issues it has versus the X3. Not to mention almost double the ponies the X3 has......... well I guess I just did.
@@ShockTherapyllc well thank you! I wanted to buy the 2021 Talon R , so glad I came across your channel. I've learned alot.. keep up the great work. Maybe Honda will figure it out with a Gen-2 .
Give credit where credit is due. Why would the YXZ be designed with more anti dive in the front like you suggest it should have been? It is designed to actually handle well in a corner and not understeer. As a rally vehicle, the Yxz was engineered to be superior to polaris or canam. It has suspension geometry closer to a cross kart but with more travel.
What of this, if any, translates to other terrain? Whoops are great and all, but not everyone lives in desert terrain or gets the opportunity to traverse high speed whoops.
Any time you add power it will push the rear of the car upward slightly. This is an issue for jumps in your riding but not much else accept big holes under power or ledges under power could be some bucking
@@ShockTherapyllc That is not true. The R has a 5 inch longer wheelbase and uses the same frame as the X. To accomplish that, the front A-Arms are pushed forward about 2.5 inches and the rear trailing arms are about 2.5 inches longer. But that is really a moot point because the R uses a totally different suspension (it uses a 4 link type suspension) so the calculation of the forces and the reason it bucks is totally different and a little more complex and this video doesn't show how it is calculated or why the R bucks. Another video explaining the forces produced by the suspension used on the R and the relationship to the chassis and how it effects the ride, bucking, etc would be helpful.
@@paulfloor5320 you are correct on all accounts. I was just trying to keep it simple with his question and just say that they both have bucking issues. I will work on the details you mentioned for another feed.
Great ideas but way too many points have been completely dismissed. In your theroy a 4 seater with the same suspension as its 2 seater would buck more because the center of gravity is moved rearward. Arguably a 4 seater bucks less than a 2 seater though. Also if the stated theroy in this video were to be correct a standard double a-arm suspension would be like riding a bull...especially in a 4 seater. All that said, suspension with longer links does work beter and is easier to tune but the same goes for longer chassis. Shame on Yamaha for the poor shock/spring tuning!
Did X3 make Yamaha go back to the drawing board? Heck, Honda released their car after the X3... So I doubt the UTT will change anything in the market for a while. You have to understand most consumers aren't as educated on the products as they should be.
With almost 4000 miles on my YXZ I love it! Every machine has limitations. The YXZ is an amazing UTV...
No not really not amazing hopefully they fix it
I agree mine is still a lot of fun. If you are the type of person that needs to be the fastest in your group than you are probably looking at $30k machines instead of $20k machines anyway.
Your Name 👍👍
Great powertrain, great price, weak chassis with poor dimensions
Cool video. Probably not that big of an issue in the woods
What you've described only applies to trailing arm cars, where the mass pivots about the trailing arm bolt. Both TalonR and YXZ have an instant center determined by the intersection of upper and lower arms
Interesting, sounds like you have some knowledge on the subject
Explain more please
What you re talking about only affected the wheel radius movement. The wheel move like if you have a longer trailing arm but the force apply to the frame are still on the same spot on the frame, and it s worse than a single pivot arm because a part of the force push upper on the frame which is even higher to the center of gravity.
If you talk to anyone who ride talon x and r, they will tell you that the talon r buck worse than the x
5m in and I've already learned something through a simplification of explanation. Solid teaching environment. thank you
I race a yxz and had to learn this the hard way by trial and error. This is a great video guys, keep up the awesome work
Could you please explain a Bit which problems you Had and how you changed your driving Style. Would you still recommend the YXZ ?
I wanted to buy one but Not sure anymore. But I will Not Drive on dumpy Tracks, only fast driving on flat Sand
@@all_out_of_bubble_gum id buy one still and shift weight behind the engine, put long travel with more spring for the weight in the rear. When you jump or go into whoops stay on the gas carrying your momentum. Have enough pedal left to rev higher and not hit the limiter so the extra gear left over is not taxing the drive train. Getting the front off the ground hitting the throttle through the top of terrain allows les bumpsteer and momentum. Also moving weight whips the ass end around easily
Thank you for posting more about Honda Talon.
I took this advice, hung a nice heavy tire off the back of my 2021 and now tear the whoops apart at jhonson valley
Bad ass man👍🏼
Awesome video and thank you. Coming from a RZR 1000. Sold it and bouncing around looking at something new.... I do more logging roads and playing in the hills. I've been looking at the Talon X.... but after watching these videos I'm starting to lean towards the KRX...
Makes sense on rzr and x3, it's like a ladder bar. The talon looks like a 4 link that will be affected by the intersecting points and the yxz should only be affected by the mounting angle of the a arms not the length.
th-cam.com/video/LqAHTDe7BjE/w-d-xo.html
Love these videos/live streams. As and engineer, I love nerding out on the technical stuff. Keep these coming.
Thank you. I love geeking out over technical stuff. Try F1 engineering some time. Super nerd out on that
@@ShockTherapyllc why do you think Honda designed the suspension this way if it's so bad? There must be a reason or some tradeoff they took into consideration? I would really love an answer to this if you could provide some input.
Same here
@@sirgriffinman I asked them they didn't say. I asked Fox and they said that Honda did a massive market study and wanted the car exactly like this. Maybe they felt it fit a specific spot in the market, maybe they wanted a more nimble car at the expense of big rough stuff? Not sure if I agree with that at all since I feel you can do both. Another interesting fact is that this cars development was started in 2013. At that time this would have been an amazing car but it took them so long to bring it to market I feel that it was passed up in a lot of ways by the others. That's all I can offer for a reason.
Is geometry on 2024 Talon R with a shorter wheelbase any better than the original?
No change in the years.
Thank you very much for this video. Now I get what your talking about with the yxz. Still love mine lol
Excellent video guys! It's nice to have an understanding of why certain machines react to different terrains.
Great video. So that's why she bucks like a mule over the whoops. I did notice a slight difference when we put the spare tire carrier in the rear (slight).
Wouldn’t trade my YXZ for anything! So many problems with the other brands!
Yes my yxz bucks ...but I have found if I just floor it it does pretty good ...even jumping if I just stay in the gas pedal it doesn't buck
Exactly
you guys are both correct. If the suspension is compressed on a jump ramp then you are lowering the line of force and it really helps.,
Do you know if Honda plans to address this issue in future models?
Thank you for clearing up my question about talons/yamaha's!
Your welcome
It's unreal honda engineers wouldn't know this. They've been building racing machines longer than a lot of us been alive.
And yet they keep winning races against the others.
Weller racing does a pretty good tune on the shocks. These guys know yxzs .
how is the height of center of gravity calculated, how reward is the center of gravity point calculated?
your going to have to google that one. There is a process, four corner weights, adding 100 lbs to one side, checking degree of lean, same on other side, then lots of math.
@@ShockTherapyllc So if you don't know each of the vehicles center of gravity, then how do you know where each's line of force intersects with their center of gravity. You just can't assume a random red dot for each's center of gravity, right??
pkmiller77 you are correct. But you can find the balance point with a jack in 10 min. Also most vertical balance points are between the crank centerline and the head so there is only a 8” height variance there. This is close enough to get an idea of what’s going on. Lastly having driven them all as well as most class 1 and class 10 chassis that are rear engine and mid engine I know what it feels like when this is creating problems. The exact point of CG was not my point with the video. Only the science of it and that it exists on cars we all drive. Just something to consider.
Shock Therapy llc great thanks. Also how does tire size impact the slope of the line of force vs the center of gravity?
Great videos. Thank you. Can’t wait to get an xp pro and bring it to the shop to get suspension set up. Probably before I even drive. Coming from Coos bay Oregon just for that.
So, the Talon is fine if you don’t ride through the whoops? I drive Forest Service roads and there are no whoops but a lot of tight curves.
Yes. Great UTV if you don’t run whoops. 👍
I would love to see this on 2 seater vs 4 seaters
A Honda Talon with its "bad" suspension just won the Baja 1000
In a car that retains the motor/trans and the parts of the body from the stock car. So yeah the Honda won the the baja mil
@@kenwaddle58 When Jaime Campbell won in '20 (crossed the line in physical 1st all UTVs) they reworked the stock shocks, geo was stock, etc. The chassis, arms, etc were all custom built, obviously. It was a 4 seat chassis, btw. That's what the Honda factory team is doing now, as well. You can set up a Talon to run whoops like an animal without extending the wheelbase.
Great video thank you for taking the time to explain this.
Thank you for your great info. I was going to buy the wrong toy right up until I started watching your videos.
Does having a 4 seater change much in the way of ride?
Any time. Four seat cars are better in the rough due to timing of the whoops and wheel base but the geometry in the back is not changed. If the rear is a problem it will be with longer wheel base too
Love my talon, especially with your spring kit. Does anyone make a long travel kit for it?
I have a 2019 YXZ 1000R SS SE that seems to do great through the whoops (hitting good sized whoops between 40-50mph). I do a lot of SoCal ripping in the open desert (Lucerne area). I have heard that the 2016 - 2018 buck quite a bit, but the 2019+ YXZ's seem to do better. Is this purely thru shock tuning (rebound adjustment like you spoke of)?
Yes it is. The geometry is identical. The only difference is the shock tune controlling that rebound a bit more. Try rear weight as much as you can. Possibly a spare tire off the back even if it is just temporary. You will be amazed at the difference through the rough.
Thank you! That’s definitely interesting. I come from a dirt bike background and have been very impressed with the YXZ’s composure thru the rough, for being bone stock. It would be sweet to get some more high-speed handling out of it. Now just need to get me a spare tire rack to experiment
Does the talon 4 seater have the same issue?
Kyle Reeves what he said ^^^^^^ thanks!
Yes. the four seater has the same rear geometry so it will have the same issue. Wheel base helps a bit but not enough
What would happen in say a 4 seat KRX with only two passengers in the front seats? Center of gravity would be forward in the car. Could it still buck in the whoops bc center of gravity is forward vs a 2 seat KRX?
Your theory is correct. But it would take a lot of weight to do it. But it’s true the longer the wheel base the more that passenger front weight is an issue
I'm hoping not all is lost for my talon x4 live valve. Hopefully between the length of my car but with a shorter trailing arm there's still some decent ride to achieve out of it.
Which Polaris has the longest trailing arms? Pro XP?
Awesome, my question is , is your set up better than dynamics??
Is not better because they are different things. Live valve can also use better springs and better valving to make it work better.
@@sirgriffinman Well said
Is the center of gravity the same thing as the center of balance point? Why is the center point not at the same elevation as the pivot point, what dictates that this is half way up the car? Very glad you explained this topic, love the live feeds.
CG is not the same as balance point. BP is on the bottom of the car like the pivot but just denotes where you can balance the car. CG is this point combined with the vertical balance point. There are formulas to figure this out but for general purposes it is usually between the crank shaft center line and the bottom of the head from a height stand point.
Great info as usual! I have a RS1and XP Turbo ...Both still stock suspension, saving for Dual Rate Spring Kits. The RS1 and Turbo seem to be pretty good through the woops and jumps so my question heads in a different direction. Considering "center of gravity" and my nervousness on real steep hill climbs, which I tend to hit a lot with my crazy X3 buds, which suspension do you feel works best between different manufacturers in the combination of forward drive force and front end lift under hard throttle on hills(rolling it over backwards) Which seems to be better balanced for very steep hills or in your area , I guess dunes or steep rock climbs?
keep in mind that I don't do much steep rock crawling but the X3 has always seemed to have a lower center of gravity and better forward drive force than the RS1 and XP turbo.
Hi Great video and information after viewing this I am a lil scared to ask but really wonder what u think of the geometry on the new 2021 cfmoto 950 sport
So Yamaha has to know this, so why did they design the chassis like this?
Question is not why they built it this way, but why they haven't changed it yet. Yamaha is really letting me down
How long is the trailing arm on a XX? Where does it fit in this equation?
Moving CG rearward will take weight / traction off the front tires so keep that in mind. If you climb anything steep you will want to be careful with the CofG.
Good point
Hi guys, if the Talon was lifted would the center of gravity raise and cause the line of force to run under it?
I would love to see your YXZ sway bar in action! Where I live there is no woops, corn fields and woods, lol, I'd really like to get it to corner better with speed. Also, will your swap bar work with a bumper mounted winch?
You would love the cornering with one. I am not sure about the clearance on that. Take a look at some of our pics on a car on the site. See if you can see a possible issue.
Does any of this matter on east coast woods racing? Small choppy rough rather than big whoops
I have a 2017 Can Am Maverick 1000r Turbo. After watching this video, I am wondering if purchasing the: "Dual Rate Spring Kit (DRS) 2015-17 Can Am Maverick DPS Turbo 2.5 Fox - 2 Seat" will do much?
I live in PHX & ride all over AZ & the dunes @ Glamis. What can I realistically expect after getting some Shock Therapy?
Is there a tire carrier that you guys recommend for the honda, to get the weight back?
Also wondering is there a way to correct the transmission shift point when running bigger wheels and tires?
Sorry but I don’t. I have not seen one yet
RAY POOLE I have heard of reflashes that can do that but I don’t know which flash those were. Sorry
Could a long travel kit help solve the line of force issue a bit?
What does the extended size of the Talon 1000X-4 effect this. Any thoughts on 4 seaters in general, what would be best for a newer buyer?
Longer is better fir the whoops. Longer is bad for line of Force. These cancel each other out and make it about the same as a two seater through the rough. Car file a newby depends on where your driving. Check out our “ what UTV to buy” video about 20 videos back.
Tons of knowledge. Ive heard u say the general is your newest favorite. Can you do a segment on the general? Hows the general a arms compare to trailing arms? Great work and love the vidoes!
Thank you. Yes we will be doing a feed on the general but have to wait till we are done testing. It is my new “temporary “ favorite as that changes often with me. Lol. I like it because it is a cruiser that works surprisingly well through the rough. Is it a turbo S or Pro, no but it’s got AC, heater,sealed cab and soon to have a full bar so how can you not like that. Trailing arms are better than a arms in the rough but this thing will still surprise you.
That's kinda like setting up a 4 link on a drag car on how hard it plants the tire
Very similar
That was great info. Thank you.
Thank you for the videos education is great
What is “heighth”?
Great video love the technical stuff had me thinking about your comment Justin as to why you prefer the suspension on the krx over the xx in the na category
We will be going into the details on the KRX design on Tuesdays feed next week.
If you would have only talked to honda talon engineering on the geometry of the rear trailing arms length and center of gravity on this car i would be able to enjoy it while riding on whoops. Thanks for making this more understandable on bucking.
Can we get some more KFX1000 videos?
Off to the fab shop I guess. New trailing arm location and arms in the making!
Learned a lot, thanks guys!
Excellent explanation of the geometry differences and effects! I love understanding the science. I would like to see something like this on springs that explains the relationship between spring rate and free length and the affect they have on ride characteristics. (I hope I used effect and affect correctly)
Awsome video, requested this video on your, wich one to buy, video. totally understood now . Have you ever considered building your own production machine, or collaborating with can am ?
We have had discussions. But then we would have nothing to improve if we did our job. It would ruin my day job. Lol
Too bad I missed this.... you’re talking about high speed riding...up here in the pnw we mostly have slower technical riding with lots of crawling...how would this apply to that? I’m asking because I’m going back and forth between a krx and an x3.... and both dealers already roll their eyes when I roll up to the store.
The Krx would be better for ur type of riding it’s a bigger more comfortable car the krx has a better low speed clutch engagement and the krx has a stronger chassis
I agree the KRX is better for your riding.
Been looking at utvs for awhile now. Was really considering the yamaha and honda. Gonna really consider the kawi and can am again
I just picked up a 2019 yxz1000r ss se...
My favorite thing about my machine is the suspension... (im no professional like you guys so I didn't comment on this video but this past weekend I drove the 2020 polaris xp pro turbo with active suspension i wasn't overly impressed)
To me...
It sounds like we are comparing a hellcat challenger vs a hellcat red eye challenger...
👍
Very informative! I do appreciate the info!
Did Yamaha solve that Problem with the New 2021/22 Modell?
Nope. Same chassis
My dad has YXZ and all my buddies and I have RZR XPs. We give him a hard time all the time. Now I can ask him how his line of force is! LOL
I mean you own a Polaris lol. It’ll eventually burn itself up.
Thanks for the information it helps
So the Honda talon 4 seater is better for that
No it is the same. Longer wheel base is usually better for the whoops but it isn’t good enough to over come the geometry
Thanks that made my purchase decision
Do you think Kawasakiwill come out with a 4 seater for 21 And will they come out with Super charge or Turbo charge
Any long travel kits that solve this issue?
No. Only some that make it a little better.
Amazing video
Curious how this line of force law applies to an “ideally suspended ” 4 seater like a RZR or X3 vs the inferior 4 seater Honda? Second question, how would running a 4 seater with 2 people vs 4 people affect this? @shocktherapy
I am not sure what you mean comparing the RZR, X3 to the 4 seat Honda since the video pretty much shows how that would go between those cars due to arm length. But if you mean 4 seat vrs 4 seat then the problem gets worse as the car gets longer for a Honda. Longer the car, farther forward the CG gets. Conversely the longer wheel base tends to do better in the whoops due to timing in the whoops. This is not enough of an advantage to over come the geometry negative. A four seater with two people will move the CG forward a lot. 4 people might move the CG back again. Probably should see where it moves with a jack some time to confirm this but my guess is it would be slightly better with 4 people in the car than two.
How is center of gravity calculated?
Your going to have to google that one. There is a process, four corner weights, adding 100 lbs to one side, checking degree of lean, same on other side, then lots of math.
Post more videos about the Honda talon
Great video!
How is the XX in comparison?
The XX has no bucking issues at all
So this is why my older Kawasaki 4LE bucks like a mule , with forward mounted engine center of gravity must be a long ways ahead , love my KRX
So Yamaha tried to make this slightly better by moving the radiator to the rear hey?
GREAT INFO BROTHER 🤙🤙🤙🤙🤙🤙🤙🤙🤙🤙🤙
Ill still take a real transmission over a better rear suspension. Looking at a YXZ, mainly for dunes.
Thanks for the video. Now i got the answer I've been looking for. Dont buy these to machines unless you have deep pockets to do mods.
Thank you good video
Why did you skip over the Wildcat XX? Here I sit waiting patiently for my # and nothing...
Because they don't suffer from this problem
Damn, I am totally nerding out on these tech videos of yours! Thanks!
Great videos, keep them coming
Does changing the ride height have any effect on moving the center on gravity? Like if you where to sit the front higher than the back?
it does but it is very slight. it won't fix a big geometry issue
More beer equals better ride!!!!
Having owned a yxz and putting 2700 miles on it I can tell you they buck more than a Mexican bull. For the most part I liked it but it was miserable over big whoops and on jumps where it nose dived like a kamikaze pilot. Traded her in for an X3. While the Yamaha is a better built unit it just can't overcome the issues it has versus the X3. Not to mention almost double the ponies the X3 has......... well I guess I just did.
You also forgot to say its 10,000 more.
How did Honda and Yamaha miss this?.. wtf
Great question. I have brought this up to a few engineers and they all said "what" when I said line of force. Weird
@@ShockTherapyllc well thank you! I wanted to buy the 2021 Talon R , so glad I came across your channel. I've learned alot.. keep up the great work. Maybe Honda will figure it out with a Gen-2 .
@@ShockTherapyllc they need to pay you big money to be a consultant when they design their suspension. What a bunch of dipshits
When my wife want to drive we take the Razor. When I drive I take the Yxz.
Give credit where credit is due. Why would the YXZ be designed with more anti dive in the front like you suggest it should have been? It is designed to actually handle well in a corner and not understeer. As a rally vehicle, the Yxz was engineered to be superior to polaris or canam. It has suspension geometry closer to a cross kart but with more travel.
You guys need a video with Jake burkey from.busted knuckle talking suspension. Bouncer setup vs desert cars.
He is already setting up his new buggies with long trailing arms instead of double A arms
Good Stuff!
super interesting, didn't know this
A-Arms don’t work how you’re describing though.
Older BMW motorcycles suffer from this problem as well
What about krx
We will cover that next Tuesday
Except these two machines will actually last.
yep but your lower back wont lol
What of this, if any, translates to other terrain? Whoops are great and all, but not everyone lives in desert terrain or gets the opportunity to traverse high speed whoops.
Any time you add power it will push the rear of the car upward slightly. This is an issue for jumps in your riding but not much else accept big holes under power or ledges under power could be some bucking
Theres two talons which one are you talking about
All of them. The rear arm length does not change from model to model
Shock Therapy llc ill be damned i always thought the x was shorter
@@ShockTherapyllc That is not true. The R has a 5 inch longer wheelbase and uses the same frame as the X. To accomplish that, the front A-Arms are pushed forward about 2.5 inches and the rear trailing arms are about 2.5 inches longer. But that is really a moot point because the R uses a totally different suspension (it uses a 4 link type suspension) so the calculation of the forces and the reason it bucks is totally different and a little more complex and this video doesn't show how it is calculated or why the R bucks. Another video explaining the forces produced by the suspension used on the R and the relationship to the chassis and how it effects the ride, bucking, etc would be helpful.
@@paulfloor5320 you are correct on all accounts. I was just trying to keep it simple with his question and just say that they both have bucking issues. I will work on the details you mentioned for another feed.
Haha dude u guys are good I like the content!!!
Great ideas but way too many points have been completely dismissed. In your theroy a 4 seater with the same suspension as its 2 seater would buck more because the center of gravity is moved rearward. Arguably a 4 seater bucks less than a 2 seater though. Also if the stated theroy in this video were to be correct a standard double a-arm suspension would be like riding a bull...especially in a 4 seater. All that said, suspension with longer links does work beter and is easier to tune but the same goes for longer chassis. Shame on Yamaha for the poor shock/spring tuning!
Did X3 make Yamaha go back to the drawing board? Heck, Honda released their car after the X3... So I doubt the UTT will change anything in the market for a while. You have to understand most consumers aren't as educated on the products as they should be.