Threshold Braking for Rally, Racing, and the Street
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Threshold braking is one of the most important skills that all drivers should be familiar and confident with, as well as an absolutely critical skill for racing drivers of all disciplines to master. Threshold braking is simply defined as the maximum braking force possible without locking up the tires. This threshold braking results in maximum deceleration on many surfaces, the exceptions being in loose, deeper materials where digging into the ground will be an advantage. Here at the rally school, we emphasize threshold braking to all drivers, whether they're competing in rally and rallycross, on the track, or simply driving on the street.
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11:33 That's his "I just stalled on purpose but it still feels bad" face.
Lol 😂
I thought the same thing, he looked so disappointed 😂
"You've got to be really good to do that"
It helps that Wyatt is the Stig. Eventually I will come down for lessons. Much love from Toronto.
At the bare minimum, the winter safety class was excellent. Took it last Friday.
Thanks Wil!
Braking with my right foot : can accurately adjust the brake pressure from 0 to 100% as needed,
Braking with my left foot : 0, 50 OR 100% brake pressure.
Reminds me of my first drive in an automatic car.
My left foot automatically tried to clutch from first to second gear, and we were up against the windscreen.
I learned to threshold brake while in the late stages of learning to left foot brake, so weirdly enough it's easier for me to do it with the left foot than the right. Too bad the speedometer dies when I pull the ABS fuse ahah.
Man, lucky you. My left foot braking is just on or off )
I grew up with a go-cart, so left foot braking was normal to me when i learned to drive..
I drive a standard now, and I find myself using either foot for different situation.. If I don't need to use the clutch, I'm left foot braking..
@@ProtonFilms_Mark disconnect the big 30A fuse for the ABS pump motor (on or near the battery) instead of the control system...
This seems to fall into the category of "things people don't bother learning anymore". Driving a manual transmission seems to be going that way, and balance through a corner will most likely be next as cars do it for us.
Thanks for keepin the knowin.
man I hope not...they will definitely brake too much
Ultimately we decide by what we buy. Personally I prefer pre 2000s models. it’s how we pass these skills on to next gen that will decided what gets left behind
It's the sort of thing you learn to "feel" any time you take a car to the limits of its performance (test pilots call this "pushing the envelope", in reference to the flight envelope of an aircraft). Putting a posh name on it and teaching it as an explicit technique bypasses a lot of the trial and error, but can also act to limit the overall car control skill in many drivers (purely psychological).
Lane changing, blind spots, and low speed braking seem to be going that way too due to safety technology and regulations
@@oueb As a 90s JDM fan I agree. Also, restoration and care is the way to go.
This is one of the best skills anyone can learn, especially if you live in a snowy area. Practicing threshold braking allows you to learn road conditions quickly and adapt to them, making you a safer driver. One of the first things my dad taught me when I started driving was how to threshold brake to check road conditions.
One Person who dislike the video just tried left foot breaking for the first time on highway 😁
I've been driving for years, sometimes professionally, but I still got caught out December before last when my Miata hit black ice over the crest of a hill. Locked up the brakes reflexively when the car swerved into oncoming lanes (fortunately empty), and then gently tumbled onto its roof in a deep ditch. It was early in the winter and I hadn't had the opportunity to take your advice and reacquaint myself with the braking characteristics. I'll head into the woods now with my replacement car :)
I've seen many videos like these, locked up tires and gently slifing into the opposite lane.
It's too late to slam on the brakes Karen and turn Karen.
This may have been addressed in a different video, but left-foot braking while simultanously applying throttle was a Saab thing in snow and ice rallying. Braking would transfer weight to the front (drive) wheels, pulling the FWD car thru the corner and, if desired, sliding the rear end around as Wyatt has shown.
Haha owned a Saab myself and did it many times
"Welcome back to team o'Neil, I am Wyatt."
And.... Now I'm not gonna work for at least 20 minutes.
The video is only 15:52........... 😀✌️
@@bigmikenbr oh like I'm gonna be productive immediately after it's over and not pull up a rally video? 😂
I just wanted to say thank you for uploading this to TH-cam I watched this a while ago it actually ended up saving my mother's car i was driving home one day in a snowstorm I went to hit the brake and the brake pedal start chattering and car would not stop and I was coming up on a jeep really quick I remember this video and I was able to get the car stopped before I hit the Jeep
Thank you for sharing your story!
This is highly important and applicable on motorcycles too!!!
It makes the difference between a lowside or just a scary moment
When I play dirt rally, I only have two pedals anyway, so I AM left foot breaking all the time :)
So, I've been an audience member on this channel for years, but never had the humbleness to say thank you.
So here we go: Thank you for all the helpful insights into all sorts of driving. You may have saved many lifes with your advices.
Thank you!!
Again and again, best rally driving channel ever. Thanks Wyatt for the educational content :)
FYI You are starting to build up speed of speech lately which is a good think :)
tips for anyone just trying to learn the basics of left foot braking, if you have an auto this is easier but just always left foot brake in that so you dont have to worry about the clutch. one or two nights of just driving around will get your pressures set and you will be able to switch anytime. its honestly the easiest thing to practice and bothers me it is considered the "wrong way" to drive, like i got 2 feet and if im in an auto that left ones gotta earn its keep
@@Pugzei Its possible no doubt, but I also know friends who drive just with their right and got into an accident at a traffic light because a bee landed on em and she slammed the accelerator rather than brake.
Stress could make you do irrational things, and since driving is meant to be low stress you dont practice those situations or hone your skill. I would love to hear data on your point, since ive heard it too, but dont know if there is any actual evidence to if its happened enough or not.
@@BaioWithMayo I'm still a fairly new driver. however, yes I will admit that left-foot braking saved my ASS from an idiot that backed up right into the street last second. I stopped left foot braking because my car had a mechanical issue and the damn wheel just snapped off while I was driving and grinded against the road. and now I have irrational fear that my left foot caused it 🥲 I don't actually think it caused it directly but is it possible that it had an influence?
@@Pugzei My bet would be the lugs weren't tightened or something just rusted out, the only thing left foot braking could do is increase brake fade/wear if you dont get off the accelerator while braking (basically overlap) or increase wear because of being harder on the brakes.
anything falling off though, 100% not the direct cause haha. And as a new driver its tough but you will get over those fears, I spun a car 2 weeks into my license and believe me that is tough to get over but you will, now im 23 and havent had an incident like that since, cuz we all are here to learn
@@BaioWithMayoI'm reading this again by accident, I forgot I commented, but damn I feel dumb. Hope you are doing good 😂
And you did it in snow boots. Props!
I wish I could take the time off work to go here and take some classes😥🤧
lul do it if you have the money
This guy seems like a very smart teacher and driver. Very observant and very good at explaining concepts.
Thanks Christopher!
I think this was said on your ABS vids comments that we appreciate you did a vid based on peoples comments/questions, and I saw threshold braking debated massive in those comments, and heres the next vid! From someone coming into motorsport with not much experience and a basic understanding who hopes to rally, you are a gem mate!
Braking to test the grip on snowy roads is one of the best driving tips I've learned.
4:02 7:33 stopping the car fast. Thank You for the encouragement to get out there Wyatt!
That bit toward the end about braking with the clutch was interesting. I kind of intuitively did that in general when braking when I first learned to drive a manual because I didn't want to stall while slowing down. That or just tossing it in neutral and regular braking.
I'm sure that your school is pretty pricey for the average person but it's honestly amazing that you put out these videos and I really appreciate it especially it also translate into SIM racing a little bit which is kind of fun because I can't build a rally car LOL so thank you very much for putting these together
It is not cheap to come here but we are told the value for the price is great. We include full coverage insurance and all the costs to have you drive our cars hard for a whole day. Hopefully some day we will see you here.
@@Teamoneilrally I imagine that any cost is worth it really I guess I meant getting into rally all in general
And thrashold braking is when you hold your trash can while it rolls down the street.
I'd advise against switching ABS off when learning/practicing treshold braking. ABS is "free" instructor that provides easy to hear/feel feedback of when one overbrakes when learning :). Subjectively for me on very low grip like ice/snow sometimes locking treshold is a bit harder to fine-detect w/o ABS.
good advice youll feel it easier in the pedal than your wheel. thanks
That looks like a fun car and course, I'd love to drive around it in the snow :)
In my experience with split-Mu situations, setting the threshold to
Thank you bro for all the useful information.
I always threshold brake a bit if conditions seem slippery and no one's around so that I know how much I grip I have; probably saved a guy and his dog when the dog pulled him on the road.
My car has all the bells and whistles electronically speaking but I might buy a 30+ year old car soon as a project car to daily drive as well and it'll likely not have any electronic aids so this stuff is super useful to know.
In my Jeep, all braking is a threshold braking.
.
RIP AT tire cars
Wow. I am here a year an a half later; the wisdom of this video is uncanny. Hope you are out there doing well Wyatt. 13:03
Practice practice practice
Also one really important valuable tool is listen
i love Subaru which is why i honestly i clicked quick on this video
Need vids dedicated to drive train types.front eng rear drive ,rear engine rear drive,front- front ect...I'm a VW bug rally myself...
I had to disable the abs on my wrx. So im learning this 👌
Thank you for your passion to make such nice videos! To make them nicer please do not wear the 🧢
Will it rally DUMP TRUCK!!!!! or SNOW PLOW!!! DO IT WYATT! DOOOO ITTTTT!!!!!
SCHOOL BUS
"Will it Rally" ZAMBONI
Threshold braking in the dry is pretty easy, and as I have no abs on my car I'm pretty use to it, but in the wet I'm always sketched out
maybe a dumb question. growing up in the snow, I learned to threshold brake young; esp with older, crappier cars. But when I transitioned to newer vehicles, I find it's much hard to find that sweet spot. Pedals feel softer and floaty and ABS seems to engage way earlier; making it really difficult to tune in that sweet spot on loose surfaces. So is threshold braking even possible with modern "safety" equipment enabled? Or is it really only applicable nowadays on vehicles that have TCS and ABS disabled?
I have an older car (2008 Nissan Murano) but it still has an automatic transmission, and I’ve found that the brakes, even after new pads, are so incredibly different than even my brother’s automatic 2010 Chevy Traverse. You feel the weight of the brakes better? If that makes sense. Road conditions are easier to read by feel, and even with ABS, I can get really close to where the threshold is. On my mom’s 2017 Armada? Not a chance. Neither with my dad’s 2018 Explorer. They don’t allow for the same degree of accuracy, even though all of them have automatics and ABS.
yes it is possible but you are misunderstanding threshold braking concept, the threshold braking means brake with the maximum grip avaible which means if you have a Dodge Neon 2004 and you brake around 70 % percent without locking up the wheels or activating the abs this is the maximum grip avaible while braking, in a Dodge Neon 2019 if you feel the wheels locking up or activating the abs a little for example at 50% it means your maximum braking point and grip level while braking is below 50%, thats what threshold braking is, with the last part i think you didnt understand the concept, every car is different so you can lock up early or later, so about the feeling in the brakes, you need to put your heel in the floor and keep it in there to control the brake pressure, i drove many modern cars and every car have a different feel in the brake pedal as you said those feel so soft, so threshold braking is the same as when you left foot brake in a manual you need to drive a while and feel the pedals for example if you are in a circuit you need to brake in different points and see how it goes until you find the point where your wheels lock up a little of course do it in a safe place and have a safe pace to avoid any accident, it takes time to understand a car and the best way to do it is driving it.
If it clips on your feet you've hit the threshold...and Tcs will just let you spin your tires
@ 6:38 ....for the curious we engineers use the term "mu" (you tube won't let me type the greek symbol) to represent the coefficient of friction.."split " ..e.g. right tires on ice, left tires on gravel
simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_friction
Thanks for your sharing
Great video (as always)👍👍
I was intrigued by the roll cage set up in the subaru; I've always wanted to learn about what goes into building them. I don't suppose there's a video on roll cage design and fabrication??
We don't have one, but we need to do one sometime soon!
Very informative video, tnx
Great video!
"5 minutes? 2 minutes? 30 seconds?" HAHA! You sounded like Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Phiily
Black belt drivers hehe
Good video as always
6:42 quick lil owait how do i explain this to the noobies without sounding way to technical on the spot haha
Do you have a video of how to know what foot to break with? I've gotten comfortable breaking with both of my feet but u guess I don't know when it's best to use which one.
Heyy great work love what u do, but i need to know how do u make the 12 o'clock marking on your steering wheels.
Is there anywere to find a break down build on this impreza? Im interested in what setup it has for basic training rally.
Practice... perishable skill... Wyatt sounds just like Fast Eddie (MotoJitsu) :)
yup, skills rust quickly
Great video. Any chance you guys could do a video on braking while on throttle? When to do it, why, what it causes and if its usefull. It would be a real help understanding car control. Thanks
He's covered it before in a previous video. It's a good way to settle the chassis, or get weight on the front, and with a turbo car it will keep the boost up. It's no harder on anything than braking normally
@@antonroux6737 there's no engineering to explain. You're using the brakes. That puts a little wear on the pads, but only a tiny amount. If you do it a lot you risk overheating them, but otherwise it's no more stressful on the car than normal braking
@@antonroux6737 you're overcomplicating it. If you apply 15% brake with the throttle floored it will apply the same stress as applying 15% with the throttle closed. As far as torque, I assume you're taking about the drivetrain, which is exactly what it's designed to handle. It doesn't care if it comes from the brakes or the cars mass resisting acceleration. As I said, the only problem you'll have is faster pad wear, and if you do it to extremes you'll run into brake fade, boiling brake fluid, and red hot rotors.
@@antonroux6737 you just dont want to let it rest on there by accident so keep the left foot off if you arent using it actively and you wont get extra wear
@@antonroux6737 I dont think there would be too much of a difference but it would add heat and minor wear to the brake pads as you said...still imo would have to be happening ALOT like for thousands of miles to notice
best part of the video is 1:28 "brrrrrrrrrrr"
Wyatt is subconsciously hysterical. (funny)
it seems to me that thanks to you Wyatt I have already overcome my inhibition with my left foot mate. I'm from Europe so your school is a bit too far for me.😐
I am not racing cuz I've got a heavy truck. Should I disconnect abs anyway?
It's a personal choice, but if you are driving on dirt or snow a lot it might be good.
The best thing to do is put the ABS on a switch, so you can turn it on or off.
will this get me babes
SOO.. MANY... SUBARUS
He makes this sound so easy, however it is not.
5th viewer
Lesson is for the race track :D the only threshold braking you need in the streets is stay within the specified speed limit :D
This lesson is for every driver in every situation.
There are hundreds of reasons you might need this on the street.
Animals, pedestrians, other cars, winter driving, potholes...
Every driver should know threshold braking, and should absolutely use it on the street when appropriate.
The thing more important than braking pressure is.........keeping your eyes on the road. Stop looking at the camera every two seconds.
Screw ABS..
One of the best channels on TH-cam! You keep doing it. I was here when you had less than 10k subs. You're producing really, really good content, love it! Keep goin' for it boys! Cheers from Europe
Yeah, threshold braking saved me a lot of times on my mtb 😀
Can we take a moment to admire that he is doing all of this in full on hiking boots. I wear slightly thicker shoes or shoes with a stiff soul and I have to completely change how I drive because I loose feedback and it feels weird.
Your comment doesn’t make sense.
You are rightfully saying that you have to adapt to stiffier shoes etc. but you are appreciating that he is doing it in hiking boots. Yeah, but he is wearing these issues quite often so he doesnt need to adapt....
But yeah, these kinda comments (which are positive towards the video creator) will always get upvoted..
@@ICEMANZIDANE well it wasn’t meant for upvotes if that’s what you are insinuating. I just felt that it’s cool that he is able to function so well because a critical part of driving is feedback. It’s like adapting to a car with electric powersteering that is numb. You can still do great but takes more effort to know what’s happening. Of course he has adapted already but you can still admire how well he has adapted. I know people that practically live in heavy duty work boots and they can’t drive for crap wearing them. 🤷🏻♂️ still a skill imo.
@@ICEMANZIDANEyou are a miserable, insufferable person
Been following this channel for quite a long time and I thought this time I would spend some time to say how excellent these videos are honestly amazing the most useful driving advice on the internet.
Thanks!
I find it funny i use this in an 18 wheeler when the roads ar slick
I’m looking at getting into rally and was always kind of iffy on left foot breaking, it was never explained this well to me before, this vid is just in depth enough to teach you the idea and the essentials, I really appreciate y’all making some of the best info vids on yt.
It works with good straight brakes. My front left blocks first sending me sideways. Indeed I think it's to the left on snow and to the right on wet tarmac but it's been some time to remember and then there's similar problem on the rear wheel :) If you think it's funny your brakes most likely do it too just on a smaller scale. Only treshold braking will tell you (and a brake test) It's never 50.0 to 50.0
I'm a Lyft driver and my ABS light came on, indicating it's off or something needs attention. Milwaukee just got 10" of snow and I don't have the money to repair this. I'm glad my driving instructor and family taught me how to pump the brakes and threshold braking.
Dont WRC cars have a protection against the engine going off?
Like it's always treshold braking for you allowing 10% of slipping?
I'm pretty confident I was able to tune this in RBR settings :) Then left foot braking is a way to go as the engine needs to get this 10% of throttle.
... and maybe it was done by the differentials or clutch lock?
Lsd preload at 10% I believe stock in most dirt series cars
I'm gonna need some proof that this outperforms ABS.
I remember watching this video long ago and i just thought about it like couple days ago because I saw a stock hood Impreza since I usually see them with the hood scoop and this video show up again on my recommended.
I've been told the next trick Wyatt will show will be, how to drive right foot on clutch and left foot throttle.
the poor brakes tho
"ABS keeps KnuckleHeads outta gettin into too much trouble"
I seriously Can't thank the @TeamO'neal Channel enough for the videos they make & the info they provide. I've been going through watching all the videos from when the channel first started so that I can learn everything this channel has to offer . And again I can't thank the Guys that run this channel enough for all of the information they've shared & for all of their Hard work. I've been able to Acquire so much knowledge about Rally racing , Co Driving , Mechanics , how to drive & more from this channel.
This would be a wonderful way to explain progressive braking on a motorcycle for MSF classes to be licensed. It's essentially the same skill; more and more pressure, smooth and fast while not skidding, to stop as quickly as possible. It's a required skill to graduate here in PA, with a stopping distance requirement. Thanks for the detailed video demonstration!
I'm not a racing driver. But every time it's raining or the road is icy i threshold braking 2-3 times to understand the grip levels of the surface so i could know how much speed i can carry, to have a safe trip for me or with friends or family. All these i am self-lerned due to passion for driving and racing.
But team o neil rally school with these video helps a lot the people to gain more experience and knowledge on their car. Armatures, professionals it doesn't matter.
Great job team o Neil
Cheers from Greece 🇬🇷
I don't even have my license and you kept me engaged in watching an entire video about braking skills enough that I now want to go master it. Good friggen job.
These are videos I think everyone should watch regardless of what type of driving they're doing
No brake lights? :) Thank you for the video! I really miss the GD 2.5is :)
This should be taught in every single drivers ed course.
Thank you for the knowledge 🙏🏽
Are use trees to help me stop quickly
how do u control brake balance front-rear with ABS off?
You would have to install in adjustable proportioning valve to control the front - rear brake balance.
@@Teamoneilrally what if partly disable ABS on one of the axles just for autoadjusting balance? Does such idea makes any sense? Or its still better to go full manual?
Does have hard you initially hit the pedal need to be varied? Ie. you can get more braking on before lockup if you allow the weight to transfer forward first.
Dont jam on them unless you want to get the car close to sideways...trail braking or just braking to get the weight on the front is going to help you in a turn to have the weight on the front to give you turning grip on the way out of the turn
You definitely want to build brake pressure up smoothly but quickly, just like you said, so the weight transfers and you can brake harder.
Question. Does the stopping distance stay the same when you threshold brake with clutch pressed in and when in gear? As i understand the grip is the same, so it should be equal and only the percentage of threshold braking changes?
i think it depends on the car, because if you press the clutch you stop early if you dont lock up the wheels, or at least i readed this somewhere, so basically it depends on your skills to understand the grip levels
Yes and no you wont technically have more grip but clutch in is essentially neutral so you wont get forward momentum/tirespin which will make the car overal more controlled
Actual stopping distance should be the same on paper BUT:
If you had to do 70 to a full stop, it's probably faster with the clutch in
Then your brain can only worry about the brake pressure and you'll do it really well
If you try to shift down a bunch of times simultaneously, that multi-tasking might detract from the quality of your braking
In dirt rally game i use engine braking.
It doesn't work much in real cars.
Another great video, thanks Wyatt and the team!
I love the details given in all of your video, such as on some type of pavement we might need to lock the wheel up, camber of the corner, etc