The First Peoples in the Americas. Ancient DNA with Dr Jennifer Raff
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Thanks to Dr Raff for the interview and for sharing the slides from one of her lectures to illustrate the video. Check out Origin: A Genetic History of the Americas. www.hachettebo...
Editing by Jonida Martini
Chapters
0:00:53. Introduction to Dr Raff and her interest in archaeogenetics
0:04:45. Updates, improvements, and new methods in the field of ancient DNA
0:07:12. Challenges and limitations to collecting ancient genomes
0:10:00. Contamination and ancient DNA laboratory set-ups
0:14:32. Dr Raff's interest and introduction to the topic of the peopling of the Americas
0:17:21. Clovis first and pre-Clovis models for the first Americans
0:26:35. Do things keep getting older? Archaeology and headlines
0:30:09. How geneticists examine migration, dispersal, and the first Americans
0:36:36. Modern DNA and ancient DNA. Updating and improving genetic models
0:39:55. Peoples in Beringia. Isolation, refugia, and populations
0:47:51. Peoples moving from Beringia into North and South America
0:54:06. How to date when two lineages last shared a common ancestor
0:57:20. Chronology for the peopling of the Americas: archaeology and DNA
1:01:42. Ethics and ancient DNA research. Permissions, ancestors, stakeholders, and science
1:08:45. Science, archaeology, history, mythology, and identity
1:12:07. Correcting the worst public misconception about DNA: there is no genetic purity.
1:14:25. Population Y: controversies and explaining the evidence
1:21:25. Exciting to look forward to what comes next
For more #RealArchaeology coming Oct 25th-27th, see www.real-archaeology.com
For more depth, Dr Raff recommended checking out this article: Willerslev and Meltzer 2021. "Peopling of the Americas as inferred from ancient genomics." www.nature.com...
Keywords: Ancient DNA, aDNA, archaeogenetics, Genetics, First Americans, Peopling of the Americas, Clovis first, pre-clovis, archaeology, prehistory, history, Beringia, haplogroup, Indigenous Americans, archaeological ethics, ancestry, debunking, alt-history, fake history, real archaeology, evidence-based-content, Jennifer Raff, Flint Dibble
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Oh you dabble in archeology? I Dibble.
Dibble Dabble?
@@peteybpb - Double Dibble in the family?
@@ihateyourmum1000 you ARE fruity, you know that?
I dribble, but I’m elderly. It’s an issue.
common Dibble W
Just to correct one misconception. They didn't come over chasing wooly mammoths. It was Chihuahuas using domesticated humans searching for a warmer climate. Chihuahuas hate the cold. So they rode humans across and down until they reached a snow free environment which happened to be the Chihuahuan Desert which of course is too close to be just coincidence. The eastern effort (Meadowbrook) was different as they also like to find new things to bark at, groundhogs being one example. You can use this in your next books if you like but I will need a box of extra small milkbones.
@@tscully1504 😄
I did the full sequence mitochondrial test my maternal grandmother was Creek. The Creeks are supposed to have came from Mexico or further south. My mtdna matches have many hispanic people.
White sands New Mexico foot print's of humans along side of mastodons and giant sloth. Play carbonated seeds that were under the footprints of humans in carbon dated them to 23,000 years ago.
36:42 On your point, I've made a few videos about how my DNA results changed since my initial results and I now understand that things change a lot. Luckily for me I've traced my family tree back to Rhys Ap Gruffudd, so I can confidently say that at least ONE line of my family goes back 1000 years in Wales but I can't say the same for ALL the other Lines. AND If you need a quick example of how "where you live now, doesn't translate to prehistory" You need only look to the USA. Spanish settlement around 1500 and English settlement around 1600. People who can trace your ancestry back to the original settlement, that does not mean you are English NOW, it means some of your ancestors WERE THEN.
Per your last sentence, some then does not equal one now. Yes. Some people will follow one line back and back, but ignore or deprecate the other 31 of their 32 G-G-G-Grandparents
Thanks for posting. Always interesting guests and topics.
Hell yea!
As a person whose passions are archaeology and genealogy/DNA. What a great interview! Thank you very much!
😊 thanks!
Regarding a possible Viking genetic connection between Europe and North-American. I’m Icelandic and took my first DNA test 6 years ago and was a bit shocked by the number of DNA relatives I had in the US. There was quite a significant migration from Iceland to Canada in the late 19th century so part of it was certainly related to that but those were easy to separate from the rest and only represented a small percentage of those matches. Looking closer at those cousin matches I subsequently discovered that they all traced their lineages to Colonial America, Melungeons (culture that I only discovered because of researching these matches) and East Coast NA tribes… from Mi’kmaq in the north to Algonquin and Cherokee tribes in the south.
Further research showed that it was coming through all my grandparents lines and I have found this connection between these same clusters/populations and all Icelanders who’s DNA cousin matches I have looked at in this detail. The segment sizes are usually not very large but quite numerous so this connection is likely to be 200-300 years old at least. Even though there are some larger shared segments with some of these matches, up to 16cM long but, then could very well to be an artefact of the endogamy in Iceland and many of these population groups.
Now, there are many possible avenues for this unexplained genetic link. An unrecorded Icelander amongst the early colonists. The Basque whalers that frequented those costs on both sides of the Atlantic during the 16th and 17th centuries, English “pirate” traders during the same time, the Hernhutters (Moravian Church) that had missions with many of these tribes etc. etc. But none of those connections are documented.
The more I’ve looked at it, based on how widespread this link seems to be within the Icelandic population and along the East Coast, I’ve begun to suspect that it is even earlier… either related to the Greenland Norse or those earlier voyages that either left some DNA behind on the North American East Coast or may have brought someone (or more) with them back from North America to Iceland. Magnified by endogamy in those population groups on both sides of the Atlantic.
Might be an interesting topic for some future research 😊
This is really interesting to me because I was raised Mormon and was taught that native Americans were Jewish emigrants from the Middle East. I don't believe that and there's no evidence anywhere that that's true
It is interesting that the LDS leaders now have changed that line of rhetoric with their essay on DNA. Most LDS will never read it bc it is hidden 3 clicks deep on the website. Simon Southerton a former LDS member and current DNA expert has done a few spots on the Mormon Stories Podcast talking about the DNA and the Laminates. We were lied to for sure.
Good for you for going with solid evidence!
Thank you for this great interview, especially the discussion at the end. Myths and oral tradition can give ideas and inspiration 😊
Thanks Chris!
I'm glad I somehow stumbled my way into the field of archaeology. Every archaeologist I've met has been super chill, down to earth, and just someone I could see myself getting a beer and having a chat with. Super amateur archaeologist myself with a hard case of imposter syndrome, but everyone I've met, from the fresh out of school shovel bums, to the 60 some odd year old scholar, has made me feel accepted, it's been wild.
Sorry this is off topic, but keep up the good work doc.
Soo interesting that there are more archaeological finds than genetic sequences of them; yay, more informations will turn up! Thanks for your work!
Thanks!
Cool video, thanks for all the discussion!
Great conversation! Thank you for bringing around experts.
💯
As a genealogist, ancient DNA and archeology is an interesting and exciting field to follow.
Thanks for having Jennifer Raff as a guest. Her perspective was captivating.
Bravo!
Definitely. She rocks!
Fabulous. I'm not American but I always find the work on the peopling of the Americas so fascinating.
It was also interesting to hear about "double majoring" on a PhD in the US as this is something you can't do in the UK.
This documentary is more about the doctors life story and general gossip than about the subject.
Thank you both for this!
Regarding ethics, Al Jazeera's recent documentary about Eske Willerslev's journey with this in connection with Kennewick man is pretty interesting.
Also, is my memory playing tricks on me or are there older theories arguing for a peopling of the Americas around 25,000 years ago? I remember being surprised when I heard about the Clovis first hypothesis as a young adult, because I could've sworn that growing up this is the figure I learned. And I'm older than both of you.
The recently discovered footprints at White Sands National Park date to 23,000 years ago.
@@MossyMozart I know. But I learned that figure more than 40 years ago, when we didn’t know about those 🤔
Not sure. As I'm not an Americanist and when I was an undergrad, Clovis first was already on its way out
@@rdklkje13 from what I've gleaned after countless hours of listening to lectures on N. A. archeology and learning the general arc of professional knowledge, Clovis was radical concept to the old guard, especially the likes of Hrdlicka, who insisted on a settlement timeline of only a few millenia before present. Clovis pushed the date back way further than anyone prior dared to consider. Consequently there was a lot of pushback to the discovery and proposed dates for Clovis. I don't know of any contemporary theories that proposed anything older. You have to remember the prevailing attitudes among most American archaeologists in the early 20th century were strongly tied to the vestiges of scientific racism and often served a narrative used to justify manifest destiny.
Yay!
Thankyou both for a really interesting discussion, with the frisson of the 'population Y' stuff at the end. As said, things will change - either refining or overturning as more samples. both ancient and recent are added.
Tangentially I've recently read the late Jean Manco's two books on Celts & Anglo-Saxons which seemed to try and pull together the separate strands of archaeology, DNA and linguistics into a coherent narrative (and well referenced, too) from as far back as we can identify their pre-historic roots. So this conversation fell nicely into things I'm interested as a layperson albeit in a different region and deeper depth of time. I will be getting a copy of Dr Raff's book to read.
Dr Raff's comments on engaging with Native American peoples for the work was also interesting: Each group, each set of testing, having its own wants or interests that by the sounds of it vary very much from instance to instance.
'I'm sort-of familiar with the Tāmaki Makaurau Accord regarding display of Human remains, but I'm not sure how that impacts dealing with DNA material. Are there later international protocols for them specifically or does it fall within the overriding arch of it?
I am not an Americanist, so take this with me not having in depth knowledge on how it is governed everywhere
On a legal level, all this is governed federally by NAGPRA which requires permission for study of any human remains or grave goods from a federally recognized tribe that is demonstrated to be descendants of the ancestors in question
However there are also state laws that have additional impact. Because some tribes are recognized at state level but not federal level
Finally there are ethical rules created by universities or archaeological institutions or even journals that guide the study and publication of such ancestors. These are important too
After watching this yesterday and thinking about it all evening, I had to come back and ask. Is it possible that we are misidentifying the location of this Berengian Pause, and that these first peoples got into North America before the LGM, and then the three way split that we are seeing is the ancient berengians moving back north and the NNA and SNA splitting somewhere in western North America? Maybe NNA were more inland like the Great Basin and followed the retreating glaciers and its familiar ecosystem, and the SNA living more coastally like California and continued that lifestyle while migrating south?
I definitely think with more evidence in time and space, the picture will be refined
Really compelling interview, sir! *applause*
When Dr Raff said "paradigm shift", I was so excited because its proof positive that archaeology maybe slow to change, but the field itself is always evolving with time. Paradigm shifts occur when we have to completely change our fundamental understanding. And I love that she is all about respecting indigenous rights in regards to her field. That is HUGE! Massive respect.
Also glad the Trans Pacific link was discussed. yay!
At least NZ is present on the map @57:24 - always nice to see! :D
That diagram is fantastic. It really gives you a better perspective of the haplogroups movements.
How do you account for the Monte Verde date (14.6 ka) if the Ice Free Coridoor only opens up circa 14 ka? That's alot of space in between yeah? 600 years or so?!
Enough time for a group of people to travel from the top of the continent to the bottom or vice versa?!
Thanks!
I think most scholars of the early Americas are starting to come around to a kelp highway model for migration into the continents. So, along the Pacific coast. This accounts for the speed of movement south and seems to line up with lots of the evidence
@@FlintDibble Totally makes sense, better food options while on the move! Great interview, keep em coming! and Congrats on 25K
I think the most parsimonious explanation for genetic evidence not accommodating these very early dates -- especially White Sands, but also Rimrock Draw in Eastern Oregon (~18kya) -- is that these very early people were relatively few in number compared to the later wave, and were replaced without having any current descendants. No or very little genetic contribution.
This wouldn't be particularly unusual. The earliest _H. sapiens_ in Europe are not the direct ancestors of current Europeans.
I suppose it will be sorted out when we eventually get a genome from 20k+ year-old remains.
Isn't the native population of Australia evidence that people have been seafarers for something like 50,000 years?
During the last glacial period, they wouldn't even have to get out of sight of land to get to California from Mongolia.
Also, ice is fresh water. Fat is food and fuel. I'd think I wouldn't need my corridor to be particularly ice-free if I was headed south from Alaska. I'd just need it to be passable. I expect I'd rather pull a sled full of provisions on snow than on dirt even if there was plenty of dirt.
Saying that to ask.
Do archeologist always keep digging to 50,000 year old sediments when they are excavating wonderful places to hunt and gather?
I'd want them to. (Can't find a Denisovan if you don't look:)
🐧Dibble me!
I'm so old, that my DNA is classified in the domain of archaea. Mitochondria wasn't even invented yet ! Is that ancient enough DNA for you ?
Thanks for the excellent presentation!
Thanks!
🐶 🐶 🐶
Flint, you are paving a path for modern archeology. You’re doing “sciences” work 😂 keep it up
Doctor Raff, I tend to agree with you about Asian DNA; however, from time to time I have friends that swear that at one time there was a group of Middle Eastern peoples that settled in the Americas from about 2,000 to I,OO0 BCE, forming a major civilization.. I do not believe them, as a result of my readings in genetics, but my present understanding does not preclude information I may have not heard of. Is there any evidence anywhere in the Americas of such a Middle Eastern settlement? Now 83, a retired professor, I try to learn history, archaeology, genetics, and linguistic from academically-trained professionals who are peer reviewed, so when I meet pseudo scientists who make such claims as those who almost testify that a Middle-Eastern civilization once existed in the Americas, I want to respond with the best scientific information presently available to me. My academic background is English, Spanish, and Reading. As a hobby, almost, I have studied the Romans in Europe, the Hopewell in the United States, and the Amerindians in most of the archaeological sites in Mexico, including Mesoamerica.
Thank you so much for a great talk. But I so much want to hear about the single person who is in a separate genome and I’m wondering if that information is available across the net, because that’s the first time I’ve heard of that.
Solid work. Great show
Thanks!
Jenny is great. She’s smart and personable, and a great science communicator. Her whole family is that way.
In the UK we know it was possible for our ancestors to walk across the North Sea to Scandinavia and mainland Europe up to 5,000 years ago.
As the sea levels rose there was no time when the water became so wide it completely divided us from our mainland relatives.
Up until the centuries immediately before the Roman's arrived we were using coins minted in Europe as currency on the island of Britain.
As a sailor myself, it is self evident to me that trade via waterways is far far easier than trade over land. There is plenty of evidence of Neolithic sea going craft.
I think today we really underestimate the difficulty of travelling and transporting goods overland without roads or even wheels.
A great discussion on a wonderful subject! Learned a lot of new information. Im surprised though that there wasnt any mention of Naia or HN5/48 found in Hoyo Negro. I heard she is the most genetically complete and oldest ancient American found. Thanks Jennifer and Flint!
This is perfect!
Hopefully you can do a similar episode on ancient Egypt and pre dynastic DNA. Away from afrocentrics and Eurocentric. We need this kind of studies especially since there's lots of groups trying to claim to be related to ancient Egypt!
A man in some state went to TV few years ago and claimed to be direct descentants of Ramses just because he has a parental haplogroup or something. We need actual science not strange therapeutic myth!
Oh hey my professor is friends with Dr Raff
American giants ?????
40:00 results.
Do I remember wrong, or did they actually found some native american DNA that entered in Iceland some 1000 years ago? Wouldn't that mean that there was also genetic evidence of Vikings entering Americas? (Although not where you would expect to find it). Did they prove the found false, or did they find better explanation for the findings?
Couldn't that equally be evidence of a Native American people reaching Iceland around 1000 years ago?
Each time I see an episode I learn so much. I'm excited to see what the next one is going to be.
A view on what we know about the domestication of animals would be very interesting. Especially the notion that it happened several times and by very different peoples. I often wonder where the first person lived that had the idea of climbing on the back of a horse...
Thanks filososabke! Yes, I will definitely cover that topic, probably several times
@@FlintDibbleNot half as brave as the first hominin to open a crab & eat it! Probably without cooking at first.
I suppose seeing other mammals eat them might've helped but even so, what with the dead men's fingers (gills) and all it's a right old goopy mess in there.
As a kid growing up in a small Devon fishing port (Brixham) my first remote controlled toys were big cock crabs & a wooden spoon & opening them up, even after cooking, my first thought definitely wasn't "Om nom nom!" 😆🦀
"If I were helicase I could unzip your genes"
-Gene Hackman
I tried to look up this quote and then I realized ... geneius. Very well done.
Loved this ❤
When we are retrieving human remains from archaeological sites in the UK we do not consider ethical issues of sovereignty of our ancestors.
We already know, even if we are descendants of these people we have no claim over what their beliefs and values were and consequently no way of accomodating their "sensitivities".
Perhaps these considerations are a case of "Presentism", giving contemporary indigenous people more sovereignty over their ancestor's remains than their ancestor's would have demanded?
I think this is a case of standpoint epistemology, which is anti science and projecting contemporary issues onto a people that may have nothing to do with them.
I have worked with Aboriginal people here in Australia.
I have experienced first hand how assuming contemporary peoples have special insight into people they are told are their distant ancestors can put them into very intimidating positions.
Indigenous political organisation once relied on cultural knowledge being held by 'elders'. If the elders are not present then science can be accused of unfairly pushing people into unearned or illegitimate positions that they can be criticised for by the remainder of their group
I have seen the resentment and jealousy this assumption by liberalism can stir up in a people struggling to live as modern people..
The genes don't lie !
You should send this to one Mr. Hancock
It makes sense that before the Clovis culture there was a small, growing population of people throughout the Americas.
That is not maximum paranoia. The researcher still has skin exposed. They could wear a full-face mask. Maximum paranoia would be to tape the hood to the full-face mask.
It's been suggested that some now extinct Indian tribes (the Mandans I've heard for one) were blonde and light eyed. Is field work being done in known home ranges of tribes to study their differences.
Can you tell the difference genetically between an Inca and an Iroquois?
Can you imagine what the first people to cross the rockies thought! Those massive empty plains, the game! A very rare if not unique experience after years of hardship.
Flint dibble😂😂😂imout
Problems with data driven discussions perchance?
I’ve just watched a Bloomberg video on computer encryption and how difficult it is to crack a code into its constituent primary number components. I think it’s the same for DNA and I don’t trust how scientists are interpreting DNA, I think a lot more scrutiny needs to applied to this field of science, I don’t trust it yet. However it is on the right track. My uncertainty comes from the fact that native African DNA seems to be more rich and diversified than 2 populations on different ends of the planet. It doesn’t make sense that a population in one continent have far more diversification than continents separated by thousands of miles. That’s why I don’t trust this scientific process.
The diversity in Africa is because of the genetic bottleneck created when only a small percentage of the human population who lived in prehistoric Africa migrated out of africa, eventually to all corners of the world
It's a well demonstrated and repeatedly tested fact that has been proven many times in the face of critics over the last few decades
"That’s why I don’t trust this scientific process."
It would be interesting to see you interview Native archaeologists instead of just more white "experts" who usually have very little contact or relationships with Native people. It gives the usual Eurocentric know-it-all that profits off of Native people bjt does nothing to actually promote real life Native people
For sure and Dr Raff is one of the best at collaborating and working closely with Indigenous people. We discuss that at length in the conversation
I expect to be doing an interview with a native archaeologist later this month, and will continue to work hard at lifting up and empowering a diverse range of voices on archaeological topics
If your problem with science and history is race you should probably look into religion
@@gnostic268 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
The natives of America killed, enslaved, subjugated, tortured, controlled territory, and terrorized each other long before the "white" people showed up. They were no more righteous or noble than the people with lighter skin tones that showed up and conquered the new world. Why should white people "promote" them?
Americans owe Native Americans a presidency.
Native Americans originated from the Black Ball at the center of the Earth ,same as the Europeans.🧿
They came to America by rivers connecting the oceans 5,000 years ago.🦠🐡🐳🦭🦛👫