Was 1177 BC a civilizational collapse or social transformation? Hammurabi's Shoes w/ Dr. Eric Cline
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- #RealArchaeology Thanks to Eric Cline for this fantastic conversation on the Late Bronze Age Collapse.
Buy Eric's new book: After 1177 BCE: press.princeto...
Chapters
4:55 1177 BC, the title
17:06 Public communication
23:53 How to define collapse?
34:32 Climate change and the end of the Bronze Age
51:17 Why should we care?
55:33 The Third Wave of Archaeology
1:09:28 Ranking the collapses and transformations
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Keywords: Late Bronze Age; Early Iron Age; Archaeology; Collapse; Resilience; Climate Change; Transformation; Ancient History; Near Eastern Archaeology; Ancient Greece; Aegean Prehistory, Hittites, Cypriotes, Mycenaeans, Minoans, Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Hammurabi's Shoes
If you like these videos, don't forget to chip me a tip with a Super Thanks or become a channel member today for some behind-the-scenes perks!
Or buy me a coffee at: www.ko-fi.com/flintdibble or subscribe at: www.patreon.com/flintdibble
It’s so enjoyable listening to experts just talk as experts without dumbing it down to abject swill
What an excellent guest Flint. One of my favorite topics.
I think there is some philosophy occurring when asking what it means to collapse vs transform. It seems that what we are talking about are dynamics of structures. That is, we are talking about 2 things a structure can do, collapse and transform. A collapse is a rapid deconstruction into a nonfunctional, disorganised collection composed of the previous structure’s components. A transformation is a reorganisation from one structure to another without the structural function being lost.
So the question of whether the bronze age collapsed relies on defining the structure of the bronze age, defining its components and functions, and then defining the following system as either a different structure or a nonfunctional disorganised collection of the previous components.
I love Dr Cline's interconnected, holistic approach. I think the ancient world was more connected than we often imagine. Enlightening discussion, cheers for sharing and making this kind of academic discourse accessible
Thanks!
It has to do with modern disciplinary boundaries
Dr. Cline said he wonders if the people of the era knew they were in a collapse, and that brought up a question I often have about history before mass literacy: what did the average person even know about the world around them? Not the king or the merchant, the average field-plowing person.
They would have been acutely aware of things like famine, invasion, population collapse etc. the issue with ancient history is the ‘social history’ element is of course very limited due to lack of sources. They were also, imo anyway, much more politically aware than you might imagine. One reason being these societies were much smaller than a modern person probably imagines. For example, a Bronze Age army might have been 200 strong. A large city might have been 5,000. So while in some senses the elite could have been ‘remote’, it would have been nothing like a medieval or modern king or queen in terms of disconnection from the population.
Sounds like you just found the cause of both the sea peoples and the collapse.
About twenty years ago, I was walking along the street in New York. I saw something glitter in the tire tracks, so, bent over and picked it up. It was a man's diamond ring. It was squashed and scratched up, but it also was marked on the back, "23k" and "AA diamonds." Maybe the sea peoples would know what to do with it? The guys at the pawn shop didn't want it. And there is a very simple reason for it. The police won't get the money, so it isn't money.
Thank you for the interview. Dr. Cline inspired my interest in the Bronze Age. I've spent a lot of money on books because of him :)
Great talk! Thanks to you both for all the outreach🙏💛
Brilliant! Not only did I feel like I was sitting with these two super interesting people, I learned a ton and I can't wait to have the book. Thank you so much
Thank you for the periodic illustrative maps and pictures. The added visual context, even periodic, is nice and I appreciate it.
Great video. Dr. Cline is always a pleasure to listen to. You two have some great ideas!
Excellent talk.
i LOVE this time in history. Really looking forward to listening to this.
Ill never understand why people have create fake narratives, pseudo history, etc. To make a book "seem" more interesting. Real history is way more interesting, I love and appreciate books that get you interested even more on a broad subject. Then you do further research and find out even more to the real history.
I enjoy alt-history as a work of fiction - which of course, it is - by authors or creators who pitch it as a work of fiction. I hope that makes sense. I was just watching Cody from althistoryhub last night but the whole basis of the channel is that it is fiction and just a bit of fun.
I also enjoyed CJ Sansom's alt-history fiction but, again, it is a book of fiction not non-fiction.
It is a shame because, in certain disciplines, the phrase "I'm just asking questions" doesn't infer curiosity anymore but reflects an ulterior motive (anti-government low-trust suspicious mindset).
innit, why does Graham Hancock have to imagine a collapse of civilisation in the distant past that didn't happen when the bronze age collapse is right there
You've heard of money?
@@anniealexander9911 alt history is fine in that context, I can see the appeal, like you said...as long as its not marketed as something "Big History" is trying to cover up lol
The fact is history is written by the Victors
Eric Cline is such a superb speaker.
{:o:O:}
Writing for the public requires a bit more effort. Those who can’t be bothered are condescending. One of the great things about Eric’s work is that he is among a handful of scholars researching Greece & the East who has also done fieldwork in both.
This Dr. Eric Cline guy is funny as hell. I love that guy. Anyway, I'm very new to your channel. I saw you the other day on a Gnostic Informant video. I'm enjoying your content. Well done!
Welcome aboard!
When E.Cline mentioned Dry Event, I thought he was referring to a function/party without alcohol.
Great show by the way, Eric is a fascinanting and approachable sort of guy, educating, enlightening and entertaining.
Interesting point: How bronze in archeological finds, helps preserve organic matter (?)
Thanks!
Thanks, Amanda!
Would like a book of Amarna letters
Wondering if there's any connection between Pylos and the Peleset?
I just saw the trailer, 😮😮😮😮😮🎉
Great interview! Thanks to you both for this
Love the trailer
I hope you have or will have a billionaire super fan who decides to fund and further the field of archaeology. Imagine man. 🤞🏻
Such a great video!
28:30
👏
Wonderful interview.
It was a bit of cognitive dissonance and very ironic to have a pro Trump ad in its midst
That's our world, filled with cognitive dissonance
TH-cam has adverts?
Thank you for telling me that my anti-advert efforts are successful, without actually telling me that my anti-advert efforts are successful.
💃
Hi Flint. Looks like Jimmy Corsetti has you targeted. He is soon releasing his latest misinformation video which will focus on you in the JRE episode. I think he needs therapy.
I think he (Corsetti) needs income. The increase in activity probably means that the debt-collectors are threatening to repossess the house.
Don’t even start to talk about climate change!!!
I read 1177 a couple years ago and absolutely loved it. I only found out about his new book through this video. Can’t wait to get a copy!
It is the 1st time I heard him talk and I wasn't expecting such a deep voice! Such a great voice. I hate my squeak of a voice!
Great questions all around here! The most important moment to me was towards the end when you mention that Knossos, while the palace did collapse hundreds of years before, successful habitation still lasted. I read an article last year for some undergrad work regarding Linear A Sheep counts at Knossos. When reading that, I was sure that habitation must have continued due to the massive amounts of livestock that were grazed near Knossos. I’m working on a digital mapping site on the late bronze age and will definitely add in some of the sites mentioned in this conversation. The bull cross breeding was incredibly interesting too!
Some people disliking obviously still butt-hurt over flint handing Graham Handcock his *ss on Joe Rogan 😆
His editor was very canny in wanting the Collapse in the start and end of the book (and on the cover). 'Collapse' conveys drama, tragedy, it sets the imagination going. Then you are introduced to *what* collapsed, as Dr Cline explains, and that is what makes you fall in love with the book and the time period.
The two of you should collaborate on a theoretical transition narrative from Gobekli Tepe into the Summer/ Akkad (12,000 BP - 2,500 BP) period into the Sargon Assyrian range. In other words, migrate from strict archaeology into written/archaeology periods blending our current known with unknown knowledge.
" blending our current known with unknown knowledge." - the last thing anyone should promote is "unknown knowledge". To do so is just to beg for fantasy.
@@TheDanEdwards I may not have communicated my thoughts very well. What I was trying to emphasize was the difference in our somewhat direct knowledge based on written evidence vrs only archaeological evidence which relies on our interpretation of events. Once writing starts we are able to understand the mind of those in that time period. Prior to writing we have to infer based on our best guess.
@@TheDanEdwards It's a contradiction in terms. Which is not a sign of a well-thought out suggestion.
@@plutoplanet4275 Very often the archaeological evidence is much *less* ambiguous than the written evidence. The writer was writing something (a report? ; a justification of their actions? ; why the tax take is light this year?) for someone *else* to read. Often we don't know who was at one (or both) ends. We *don't* know what they were leaving out. We *don't* know what they were mentioning, to make someone else look bad. Because who puts such things in their letters?
Herodotus (allegedly) invented the sort of writing you're thinking of, and people have been writing about "victors writing history" ever since, and presenting "alternative" and "secret" histories for 2000 years.
A piece of bronze with such-and-such a trace element composition, from a stratum ("context") dated to X~Y BP, also doesn't tell you about who was the chief "thug with a sword". And it doesn't claim to. But it *does* tell you that copper from X, tin from Y, and arsenic from Z were all brought together at one point and time and smelted together. By boat, camel train, man-back, or UFO transporter beam - that isn't said either. But those components did somehow come together, meaning there was *some* transport system. And all the complaints (in writing) about "unreliable merchants", "pirates" and other raiders doesn't change that observation.
Oh, BTW : Göbekli Tepe was about 12000 *BP* (*B* efore *P* resent), but Sumer was closer to 2500 *BCE* (*C* ommon *E* ra). You're off by some 2ka. Given that GT was active for several millennia (TTBOMK, to date) and Sumer likewise.
@ Eric Cline. I thought the book was very pleasing; How could you write about the collapse without the context in which it collapsed. I knew about the collapse, but I kept looking for why, not just the how, and your book was the first to really to put it into context.
I think there's a lot we don't know about this period (which I am sure Cline would acknowledge). I think the collapse was more human mediated and not simply the result of an earthquake or drought. My personal belief is people from other parts of Europe were involved militarily. For example, that huge military battle in Germany (Tollense Valley) happened in about 1200 BC. They tested some of the bones and discovered that the soldiers were from all over Europe. This means armies back then were highly mobile and there was "trouble" in northern Europe just as much as there was around the Mediterranean.
There is also recent evidence that the Tollense Valley Battle may not have actually been the Tollense Valley Massacre. A group of merchents or travelers were brutally slaughtered by warriors, it seems.
That was, as mentioned in the video, the standard opinion 20-30 years ago, ie the Sea Peoples. It’s now seen as more likely they themselves were migrating due to the same issues (famine, disease etc) that was impacting these Bronze Age civilisations. So it was almost certainly a factor, just not the sole one.
Seems like a cool dude! Casual, humble relaxed, but also incredibly knowledgeable. That's the kind of person that needs to be a public science communicator, might help buck the common stereotype of academics
I have the idea that we're just not used to seeing top quality professors like Eric and Flint on TH-cam.
There may be pockets of Minoans left, but they are pretty much ethically cleansed beginning in ca 1450. Metaxia refers to the post-palatial culture as Mycenoans & the Hallagers find evidence that Mycenaean cooking jugs are replacing the Minoan tripod
Dude if this is the real Top Dibble Le Flint, I wanna thank you for helping me change a lifetime point of view of civilisation before the ice age. Especially when speaking about agriculture, crops, roads and rising sea levels different points all over the world on joe rogan.
Although I have still 1 thing that I need to be debunked in this category, that has not yet been. Due to engineers on the channel/podcast uncharted X confirming this could not be handmade
1 The granite vases from Egypt
Either way.. i will look to debunk this myself. Double Dibs you're the man. Cheers
UnchartedX does not offer confirmation. Only claims.
So many lessons to be learned from the Bronze Age Collapse. A smaller version of the modern world with an extensive trade network fell on it's face and barely scraped by. But have us humans learned from these challenges?
Looking at how many people will be displaced because of rising sea levels has me thinking that some countries that coincidentally are most responsible for climate change and also pillaged most of the world are either going to collapse or they will turn to fascism and turn their borders into impenetrable walls.
Future is looking bright!
I love our system.
Ha ha ha AAAAH!
Best name for an archeologist ever. Thanks for debunking the Atlantis crackpot, and for talking to Dr. Cline.
A swedish autor, namely Eyvind Johnson has wrote about theso called dark ages. He also wrote a parafras of the Iliad.
Is there a way to find out about the ages structure dynamics in that period or in other ancient times. Are there similarities with our current h structure?
I dunno😮 you need a video to get people to read😮😮😮
Love tour books. Admiration
Next title, 2024 BCE?
WHAT! A Zoom call interview/lecture with good audio.
And with good archaeologists too!
Go to bed
Hittites were Armenians right?
The Hittites are an extinct ethnicity. They inhabited somewhere in modern day Anatolia. So, there are no modern day Hittites, though conceivably people from anywhere could have a long distant Hittite ancestor. They certainly don’t survive as a modern day nation/people though.
@@HkFinn83 thanks!
You aren't talking about Hittites or the bronze age, you're bantering about each other.
So, Flint, is there also decline in nutrients in early IA Crete? What about Cyprus? Maybe some people left Greece & were better off?
I'm not sure. Some of the data summarized by papathanasiou and richards includes Crete, I dont think it includes Cyprus, but I'd need to double check
Thank you.
Writing for the public requires a bit more effort. Those who can’t be bothered are condescending. One of the great things about Eric’s work is that he is among a handful of scholars researching Greece & the East who has also done fieldwork in both.
"If you can't write it so your grandmother could read it, you're lazy"
@@DerHammerSpricht my preferred mode for public writing is to write as if I’m discussing it at a cocktail party
@@ashlarblocks Your strategy slaps. Pour me another.
I literally only clicked on the video because of 1177 :D
Just kidding. Keep up the great work, Flint!
1:11:38
Would be interesting to hear a discussion between you and david wengrow
To understand collapse just look at me ancestors Mandan Dakota and Windriver Shoshone. What happened when the European immigrants moved to USA started collapse. It was slow and painful. As people die so does language, culture, knowledge die away. Yes just look at how everything changed in a few hundred years. It's called a collapse.
Can’t stand climate change talks
👍
14:51
The benefit we have today over ancient times is we can desalinate ocean water to hopefully offset the challenges that stress society during a drought.
Yes, but a civilisation would need to build desalination plants first. For example, I think Saudi Arabia has desalination plants because it is in a drought prone part of the world but, here in the UK, our droughts are only a few weeks long and only lead to hosepipe bans. But if we suddenly were hit with a years long drought we would be completely unprepared. If your country's history is one of regular droughts then you know it is worth investing in all the infrastructure. But if it only happens every now and then that becomes a more difficult decision to divert money from other things to pay for desalination plants.
I think an area of S Africa went through a very serious drought a couple of years back but I don't think they had desalination plants.
How does a desalination plant help someone more than a couple of hundred km from the sea? Which would be over half the human population.
You've replaced one dependence with several more - on a transport system for bottles of water, or on pipelines (salt, or fresh water - "meh") which are major targets for everyone outside "the state".
@@anniealexander9911 "you know it is worth investing in all the infrastructure" ... but most often it is worth the "new administration" who *should* make the investment, according to the writings of someone from the old administration, retiring.
@@a.karley4672not only that, but we now have a mere 8 billion souls to keep watered.
By the by, we can substitute other words for water in a speculative modern disaster.
Great discussion! So interesting!
Mr. Dibble,
In all your work in this field, have you found any type of evidence of anything pointing to a precursor type civilization that all the (known) civilizations from this period discussed got their start from? A type of civilization that died off but branched into many directions?
No, there's no evidence for any such thing. He's mentioned this many times. Atlantis is a myth.
{:o:O:}
@@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095 I never asked about Atlantis, and stop answering for someone else when I clearly asked him and not some random.
Do you mean a precursor to the Sumerians?
@@mspionage1743
You've never watched this channel before? Or any of the genuine ancient archaeology channels?
{:o:O:}
@@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095 You are really, seriously keen on assuming things. Look, I have no desire to discuss anything with you, someone who has assumed (wrongly) on four different things already within the span of two comments and four sentences. I have absolutely no desire to discuss anything with someone such as that.
I asked my question, you are not even remotely part of it, I just reinforced my non desire to discuss anything with someone such as you. So it's time you move on to bother someone else.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Thank you. I really enjoyed this.