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14:30 it's amazing how that density distribution looks almost exactly like the sun Also the way they use conical/parabolic shapes during the stage/charge changes is pretty neat
I kind of love Lumafield's marketing strategy of just inviting youtubers to their office and throw whatever they want into a machine. They don't have to give you any marketing material or anything because the results are just so cool that everyone I've seen thats done it just loves the scans they get. And the people who would be part of the purchasing decision for getting one of these are absolutely the type of people that watch nerdy rocketry videos
Funny thing is before Joe even mentioned the name of the company I was wondering if it was Lumafield, the guys who CT'ed some stuff for Adam Savage a while ago. So I'm probably never going to be a decision maker on the purchase of one of these machines, but I know who to call! If that's their strategy, then it's working.
What other brands of CT scanners are out there? This is the only one I know of by name, so I can say their marketing strategy has worked magnificently to bring forth the existence of their product to all the nerds here on TH-cam, and I for one love it
0:45 TH-camrs really are TSA’s worst nightmare, although finding half a missile in someone’s carry-on luggage sure would make the TSA staff’s shift more interesting.
90 degree traces are mostly a problem from the old days, relating to etchant pooling in the sharp internal corners and causing over-etching. Sharp internal corners can be a very slight DFM concern when you're pushing your board fab's trace width limits, but otherwise it's fine. For high speed we don't usually care that much, and mostly just don't do it because there's no reason to, although it can start to matter a little bit if you're doing 100Gbps+ or doing mmWave stuff. At that point you actually tend to intentionally use weird angles (e.g. traces in an 11° zigzag) to mitigate the variance in dielectric constant from the fiberglass weave, for very tight impedance control. If you want to see this trick used in practice, have a dig through Robert Feranec's videos for the series he does analysing an open source dual-Xeon server motherboard. It's interesting that you brought up the issue of solder voids on ground pads, because there's a trick for that: windowpanes. Rather than using a single paste aperture on the large ground pads, you remove the default paste aperture and instead draw multiple smaller squares in a "windowpane" pattern on your paste layer. This vastly improves paste uniformity during application, and helps reduce voids.
To add, worrying about trace shape while not having a matched ground plane is really worrying about putting the cart before the horse. Gotta have a tightly coupled return path for that current first before you can worry about what kinds of shapes you're making in the copper
@@bjf10 yeah, I was thinking about mentioning that but didn't bother since it's not something Joe is likely to run into. But for reference it's due to electric field density peaking in sharp outer corners.
@@dennydravis8758 yup, 100%. you need a return path for those forward currents. I'd highly recommend everyone to watch "The Extreme Importance of PC Board Stackup" by Rick Hartley at Altium Live a few years ago. Best electronics talk I've ever seen and it completely changed how I do PCB layout and how I think about SI/EMI.
Ground planes are very important for high-speed or high-current PCB designs. The "cheat" these days is to use a 4-layer PCB, where the center two layers are solid grounds (no routed signals). This ensures that there's a good ground path alongside every signal on the PCB. (You do need to add a significant number of vias to stitch the ground planes together, preferably with a ground via next to every power/signal via). It's a great video. X-ray is commonly used in PCB manufacturing/assembly, though normally only 2D and not CT. You opened with talking about the organization of components on front vs back. The most important thing is the PCBA's mechanical interface to the enclosure/rocket. Place your connectors and large components in the most mechanically convenient locations, and then shift around the other components to fit. That said, it's common to put all SMD components on one side of the board, to reduce assembly cost.
As an amateur circuit designer, I approve this message. (Haven't heard about the ground-via-next-to-power-via, though it sounds related to stitching capacitors.)
The "it's safer to stand next to the machine" bit reminds me of Randall Munroe's comment that (when things are working correctly) the radiation level in some parts of a spent nuclear fuel pool is lower than the average level on the surface of the earth.
in general underwater is usually less radiation dense than the background radiation as water is really good at stopping/absorbing EM Waves (iirc like 50% reduction per half meter)
this is just a water thing, not a reactor pool thing (whereas in the video, it's specifically being near the machine that reduces background radiation)
@@0x5DA no, it's just a lead thing, not a CT machine thing. (Which is to say, in both cases you have a source of radiation and, because of that, something that's really good at containing it is wrapped around that source.)
@@0x5DA but in both cases being to considered, the reason it's there is to shield from a radiation source and that source is the the reason the result is interesting, not what choice of shielding is used.
@@marksinclair701 Look into Nondestructive testing, they use high energy x-ray (linear accelerator) to test solid rocket boosters, or other massive critical parts. Definitely can scan almost anything
I once shut down a TSA checkpoint by taking my lab's portable centrifuge through. This was not long after the invasion of Iraq, so uh, yeah. My advisor had made me promise to carry it on my lap, as it was our most expensive piece of equipment. The TSA bros were not amused.
I've looked at Lumafield stuff before. The CTs are as cool, of course - all CTs are! I don't care for their business model though. A few (possibly pedantic) corrections, just because this kind of thing is my day job: The IC packaging is not going to be ceramic, but a plastic resin. That's how they get it to flow around the silicon die! The connections between the leadframe and the silicon die are not airwires, but gold bond wires. 90 degree angles don't do anything to the vast majority of signals. Some designers start ranting about acid traps and conductive filaments, but mostly they just don't look nice, so people don't use them!
IC packaging is actually a fairly complex composite material itself. You have silica microspheres of various sizes as filler with CTE closely matched to the silicon, epoxy resin to bind it all together, and various other additives like carbon black to make it opaque (transistors can act like itty bitty solar cells when illuminated and cause the chip to malfunction, one of the Raspberry Pi's had problems using chips with exposed silicon that would make the board crash when you took a flash photo of it). Also, gold bond wires are falling out of favor these days due to cost. Gold ball bonds (and aluminum wedge bonds) do still exist, but copper ball bonding is by far the most common in new products.
No-effort November sounds like an actually really interesting idea - not even for the obvious reasons of "hooray, more content from someone who is already hella busy" but also just a peek into the more casual, realtime side of things rather than the highly-produced and scripted content. Sometimes I find thoughtdumping/vlogging style videos about projects to be far more interesting than anything scripted.
He does that often on Patreon and on his other channel but on this one, even when Joseph Bizzlington says it would be no-effort November, you know it’ll still be a polished product.
@@OrangeDurito I feel like his other channel is less 'low effort' and more 'leftovers/outtakes', but yeah I did kinda assume his paid patreon feed would be more churning out content / realtime updates rather than highly-produced stuff
The 45 degree thing is basically a myth, even at low GHz frequencies it doesn’t make a difference at such a small scale. If you care about aesthetics, use Mitxela’s PCB trace melting plug-in.
Think of it like knotting an extension cord and considering it a "signal" restriction, especially to those that do not understand what is REALLY going on, like the average John Q. Public types. 🙂
43 years ago I was doing LDRS type stuff and convinced my local school district in Texas to create a model rocketry / science related course for summer school. Had a lot of fun in that course! Your videos are all great. Up next TLAM guidance systems!
2:42 As someone who has designed quite a few high frequency PCBs, heres my 0.02. Traces with sharp corners really dont matter until you get above 100MHz. I say this as someone who religiously adheres to the 45 degree rule: the main reason is just for packing density and aesthetics. I think people imagine traces like cars around a racetrack, which is not at all how electrons travel. Signal reflections happen whenever theres a change in impedance - if you're REALLY worried about right angles, you better make sure you dont have any parallel traces (capacitive coupling) and a tight return path. That right angle in your I2C bus isn't an issue. The real killer is bad layer stackups with return paths all over the place. I see engineers with decades of experience making this mistake, its actually pretty insane how few layouts I see are actually done correctly. Luckily, mostly digital designs like a flight computer are pretty forgiving, so in this case it probably doesn't matter too much. It's just frustrating when I see other engineers obsessing over inconsequential aesthetic details, and completely ignorant of the things that *actually* make a difference.
If you're worried about your trace angles and stuff, just look at an old PCB when they were layed out by hand. All the compound curves! Angles galore! It's fine.
Yeah right angles are the worst but the 90 and 45 corners are the easiest to calculate so . Many people forget that swapping layers is two 90 degree bends at the via. Modest speed digital circuitry is very tolerant these days if you have the recommended capacitors on the power rails. RF design is a totally different beast that cannot be generalised.
My buddy owns a NDI company in Kansas... I'm going to have to take advantage of this once I have some rockets built! Thanks for the inspiration and all the information!
im a medical CT tech at a trauma lvl 2 hospital, this is the coolest video tangentially related to my job ive ever seen. I wonder if Lumafield is hiring CT techs lol
RF Engineer here: You're making as what it seems to be a monopole antenna; this would indeed work best without a ground plane. Antennas which would benefit from a ground plane would be patch antennas (Aperature in general) which would only recieve from one half of the plane and be more directive. I think your approach of a monopole works best for this type of chip. Very interested seeing it!
8:08 i see four 90° T-junctions at the top where there are 4 sqare solderpads in a sqare formation. It's just like shouting down a hallway with a 90° T-junction, you will get a terrible echo. That's why one should not only avoid 90° corners but 90° t-junctions aswell, you want the RF energy to follow the traces and not reflect back at you. If you look at the bottom left where the wide high-current trace is, that's a beautiful 45° junction.
"...which TSA loved even less." I remember taking my RC stuff, batteries and motors and whatnot, through airport security in the 80s. I kept it in an ammo bag! The security guy at the scanner stepped closer and UNDID THE SNAP ON HIS HOLSTER. And then I reached quickly for the bag - BIG mistake. Ah, hobbies and airlines. Enjoy your future flights, Joe.
I had a friend that worked in Aircraft engineering. When he was X-raying parts he would sneak our questionable rock climbing gear into the edges of shot. Yes, we did find some cracks. We had one so bad it was just a tap on a table away from breaking in two. The cracks were to small to feel or see. Cool to see how far tech has changed in 20 yrs.
You should try and find a place that offers scanning acoustic microscopy services and see how well that works on your phenolic and composite parts. It's supposed to be really good at finding subtle delaminations and voids that haven't opened up enough to be visible in X-ray / CT.
Hey Joe B! I had a question about thrust vector control rockets, and specifically your scout f landing. I was wondering if you were planning to release the software/code to the public along with a circuit board. I also have the very ambitious goal of propulsively landing a model rocket. I want to do this so that I can learn all of these skills, and hopefully feel accomplished and proud of my work after several years. Always a pleasure watching your videos!
@BPSspace, if you're designing boards with RF signals, look into ground stitching. Long story short its like putting a faraday cage around your RF lines to isolate them from noise.
- JOHN 16:33 - As someone who is COMPLETELY NEW to PCB Design and Electronics, I have a few questions: - How did you Know / Learn what component the to Put / Add on the PCB? - Are there any Exercise book on "Designing Schematics" and "PCB Layouts" that you recommended (or you yourself had used)? - Are there any other Books/Resources that you recommend? - Are there any Advice that you could give someone who is just starting out in Electronics, PCB Design & CAD? PS: Well done on the video! Good quality; and as a viewer, I was well informed.
6:28 for BGA packages, there is no other way usually. you'll often have power and ground in the middle pads, so you route straight to vias and through the gnd/power plane(s), and have your decoupling on the back side.
I wish this technology existed back in the early 1990's when I did my Master's Degree. We were impacting composites and using penetrant dye in a tiny hole to mark the broken/delaminated areas, then taking a 2-D simple X-ray (onto Polaroid film)!
This is also why making high quality composites can be done even at the high-end DIY level these days. The technology we have these days is actually insane.
Joe, as usual, outstanding stuff, although, probably not for you. It's just a "typical day in the Neighborhood" in your world. Thank you for the documentary AND the many "food for thought" moments.
They should sponsor you big time. Yes, you got the opportunity to use exciting tech you usually don't have access ro. However, you should not underestimate the marketing value of this video for the company.
Fun fact -- pull up a PCB from the 60's/70's/80's and you'll find the traces routed every which way. They only became straight lines when CAD based routing became a thing. The only thing that matters for high speed is the consistency of the surrounding copper.
interesting vid, thanks for sharing. On the boards: The later board isn't bad.. as you've learned, thermal reliefs can make a difference (the real trick is to design supplies that don't get warm) , you have some excess line lengths here and there. Also I'd try and put everything on one side of the board, solid ground plane on the other, digital away from analogue and RF as much as possible. Re antennas.. people sometimes say "a wire can form an antenna", but that's not true (mostly) what's true is "two wires form an antenna". like you can't get a current out of a battery by only connecting one terminal, antennas need to be balanced in some way, often against the ground beneath your feet (think large broadcast antennas). In the case of your board HALF your antenna is what you're calling your antenna, the other half is the board ground plane.. and all the stuff that has low impedance to the ground plane at the RF working frequency. I'm a RF R&D engineer, I've been doing this for over 30 years.
_"In aerospace we call this non-destructive testing."_ @9:49 No, this is non-destructive _imaging._ And very, very cool at that too. NDT isn't limited to aerospace and includes ultrasonic inspection, eddy current inspection, magnetic particle inspection, liquid penetrant testing, radiological inspection, x-ray imaging and, if you're generous, Leeb hardness testing. That latter method _might_ leave a tiny little mark, so it isn't entirely non-destructive.
this is insane technology right there, 3D density model could be so useful, i hope it'll come as commercial machines someday, can't wait for future tech it's mind blowing !!!
Whoa Whoa Whoooa... you do all this w/o any (relevant.. well.. Music is pretty and vital for life, but doesn't lift rockets w/o help) school/background?? Damn dude.. respect!! You're a rocking rocket autodidact !
Fun fact. If you place two rocket engines on top of each other something interesting happens. After the first engine reaches apogee and starts falling down the parachute charge sets off the second engine and it’s gets very exciting to watch when it goes straight down at a very high velocity.
Hardware (PCB) Engineer here- your self flagellation makes for good content, but its totally unwarranted. Your wonky traces might look funny, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. You aren't doing any high speed or RF stuff (other than the bluetooth) so that whole "NO 90 DEGREEEESSSS" thing is complete nonsense. Seriously, you should be proud of that work. Its good stuff. You can actually get the layout files for the Nvidia Jetson Orin AGX eval board. You'll find all kinds of cool wonky stuff going on in there. There's PCIe 4, HDMI, USB, and all kinds of other high speed stuff. If you're ever looking for some reference material for your next design, thats a good one to look at.
TBH I'd kinda be more happier if it WAS sponsored than this weird middle-ground thing ("Not sponsored! But it was basically a free junket!"). I also tend to call "I received a service that would normally cost thousands of dollars, for free!" as sponsored, anyway. Especially if it's abundantly clear that it's a win-win collab and the other party are seem like generally good guys.
So when are you gonna have one of those machines on your shop? Together with a 5 axis CNC? Hahaha, great video, as someone who is a Industrial Electronics and Electrical technician that also worked in CNC maintenance, I saw in some companies (those who work for government fields and research) CT machines for exactly that reason you shown: checking for failures in part lots.
Yeah that's what I was thinking, considering you can see shadowing in that area elsewhere too and they have a very weird shape all things considered. They're large enough that if real, I wouldn't be surprised if they rung when struck lol
I notice that Amazon sells a variety of microphone handles at reasonable prices. For a small investment you can purchase one and then you'll be able to free up your vice-grip pliers for a more suitable application like a paper-weight.
fun to think maybe one day there will be a pocket device that we can just pop out and look through and see inside of things. closest thing to having xray vision.
My college had just gotten a CT scanner not long before I graduated. I didnt get to use it much but man that thing was wild. Also this video does not do those models and the layer filtering you can do justice. You could get just the solder to show up if you wanted.
The 0 and 45 degree routing is mostly a convenience for the EDA software implementation point of view, there should actually be little to no difference in the signal integrity (a smooth track being a better choice rather than angles) for the MCU and speeds you are using, if you have signal integrity problems, a 90 degree angle is most probably not the culprit. You should have proper reference layers and nice decoupling etc. Tools like KiCAD even have round track extensions where you can turn your circuits angled traces into round ones with bezier curves
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Hi
You got me, I ordered a pen 👏👏
I would seriously like to receive one of those pens for Christmas.
14:30 it's amazing how that density distribution looks almost exactly like the sun
Also the way they use conical/parabolic shapes during the stage/charge changes is pretty neat
do you think you could X-ray deez nuts?
Fun fact: if you try and sneak your rocket into your medical X-rays you get invited to leave the hospital
Not if you get it stuck inside you first!
@@petergerdes1094oh no
@@petergerdes1094this is what i call a pro gamer move.
Better than being promoted to a patient
That’s why rockets have flared fins at the base
I kind of love Lumafield's marketing strategy of just inviting youtubers to their office and throw whatever they want into a machine. They don't have to give you any marketing material or anything because the results are just so cool that everyone I've seen thats done it just loves the scans they get.
And the people who would be part of the purchasing decision for getting one of these are absolutely the type of people that watch nerdy rocketry videos
100% lol, I know who to go to if I want some cool scans lol
Best part is it's actually a really good product
Funny thing is before Joe even mentioned the name of the company I was wondering if it was Lumafield, the guys who CT'ed some stuff for Adam Savage a while ago. So I'm probably never going to be a decision maker on the purchase of one of these machines, but I know who to call! If that's their strategy, then it's working.
What other brands of CT scanners are out there? This is the only one I know of by name, so I can say their marketing strategy has worked magnificently to bring forth the existence of their product to all the nerds here on TH-cam, and I for one love it
Ran into these guys at a trade show one time. The product sells itself.
0:45 why even go all the way to lumifield, the TSA just gave you your scans right there 😂
Damn boi
"Oh bummer i cant take this to the supersaver ryanair windowless cargo flight to nex town, could i stil get the scans from your machines though?"
@@tapio83 🤣🤣
I think the body cavity search might not be worth it though...
This dude transformed his music degree into one of the most technically impressive aerospace engineering channels on TH-cam.
He could have a hell of a career as a professional host/speaker. Love his videos.
Never forget that he carbonated milk along the way. 🫡
@@pietervande That was him!?
@@Geerice th-cam.com/video/9vM6KhB2ims/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gLDGRDomRylDTE9B
@@Geerice Yup
I'm so excited for No Effort November! Yes please do it
Almost as good as locktober
those no-effort november videos will be like Thechnology connections? which usually have the same or more effort? yes please.
0:45 TH-camrs really are TSA’s worst nightmare, although finding half a missile in someone’s carry-on luggage sure would make the TSA staff’s shift more interesting.
They got some work after a long time
90 degree traces are mostly a problem from the old days, relating to etchant pooling in the sharp internal corners and causing over-etching. Sharp internal corners can be a very slight DFM concern when you're pushing your board fab's trace width limits, but otherwise it's fine. For high speed we don't usually care that much, and mostly just don't do it because there's no reason to, although it can start to matter a little bit if you're doing 100Gbps+ or doing mmWave stuff. At that point you actually tend to intentionally use weird angles (e.g. traces in an 11° zigzag) to mitigate the variance in dielectric constant from the fiberglass weave, for very tight impedance control. If you want to see this trick used in practice, have a dig through Robert Feranec's videos for the series he does analysing an open source dual-Xeon server motherboard.
It's interesting that you brought up the issue of solder voids on ground pads, because there's a trick for that: windowpanes. Rather than using a single paste aperture on the large ground pads, you remove the default paste aperture and instead draw multiple smaller squares in a "windowpane" pattern on your paste layer. This vastly improves paste uniformity during application, and helps reduce voids.
To add, worrying about trace shape while not having a matched ground plane is really worrying about putting the cart before the horse. Gotta have a tightly coupled return path for that current first before you can worry about what kinds of shapes you're making in the copper
90° angles are a big problem for high voltage, fwiw. And yes, we do use PCBs in some applications, even up to tens of kV.
@@bjf10 yeah, I was thinking about mentioning that but didn't bother since it's not something Joe is likely to run into. But for reference it's due to electric field density peaking in sharp outer corners.
@@dennydravis8758 yup, 100%. you need a return path for those forward currents. I'd highly recommend everyone to watch "The Extreme Importance of PC Board Stackup" by Rick Hartley at Altium Live a few years ago. Best electronics talk I've ever seen and it completely changed how I do PCB layout and how I think about SI/EMI.
@@gsuberland indeed! We spend a *lot* of time thinking about electric field gradients in HV-land. :)
Ground planes are very important for high-speed or high-current PCB designs. The "cheat" these days is to use a 4-layer PCB, where the center two layers are solid grounds (no routed signals). This ensures that there's a good ground path alongside every signal on the PCB. (You do need to add a significant number of vias to stitch the ground planes together, preferably with a ground via next to every power/signal via).
It's a great video. X-ray is commonly used in PCB manufacturing/assembly, though normally only 2D and not CT.
You opened with talking about the organization of components on front vs back. The most important thing is the PCBA's mechanical interface to the enclosure/rocket. Place your connectors and large components in the most mechanically convenient locations, and then shift around the other components to fit. That said, it's common to put all SMD components on one side of the board, to reduce assembly cost.
As an amateur circuit designer, I approve this message. (Haven't heard about the ground-via-next-to-power-via, though it sounds related to stitching capacitors.)
16:20 my name is Ava, and I reflexively thought "wait what did I do??"
tsk, can't believe you were just sleeping on the job ;-)
The "it's safer to stand next to the machine" bit reminds me of Randall Munroe's comment that (when things are working correctly) the radiation level in some parts of a spent nuclear fuel pool is lower than the average level on the surface of the earth.
in general underwater is usually less radiation dense than the background radiation as water is really good at stopping/absorbing EM Waves (iirc like 50% reduction per half meter)
this is just a water thing, not a reactor pool thing (whereas in the video, it's specifically being near the machine that reduces background radiation)
@@0x5DA no, it's just a lead thing, not a CT machine thing.
(Which is to say, in both cases you have a source of radiation and, because of that, something that's really good at containing it is wrapped around that source.)
@@benjaminshropshire2900 uh well yes, but there are less machines bulk wrapped in lead than there are bodies of water, which was perhaps my point
@@0x5DA but in both cases being to considered, the reason it's there is to shield from a radiation source and that source is the the reason the result is interesting, not what choice of shielding is used.
the last portion of this video could just be titled 'things oceangate should have done'
That was my first thought in the first 2 minutes.
Wonder if they can scan that large an object?
@@marksinclair701 Look into Nondestructive testing, they use high energy x-ray (linear accelerator) to test solid rocket boosters, or other massive critical parts. Definitely can scan almost anything
@@marksinclair701It's usually done by hand and without such detailed and complex analysis
"No effort video in November" would be vastly preferable to "No video in November".
I once shut down a TSA checkpoint by taking my lab's portable centrifuge through. This was not long after the invasion of Iraq, so uh, yeah. My advisor had made me promise to carry it on my lap, as it was our most expensive piece of equipment. The TSA bros were not amused.
I've looked at Lumafield stuff before. The CTs are as cool, of course - all CTs are! I don't care for their business model though.
A few (possibly pedantic) corrections, just because this kind of thing is my day job:
The IC packaging is not going to be ceramic, but a plastic resin. That's how they get it to flow around the silicon die!
The connections between the leadframe and the silicon die are not airwires, but gold bond wires.
90 degree angles don't do anything to the vast majority of signals. Some designers start ranting about acid traps and conductive filaments, but mostly they just don't look nice, so people don't use them!
IC packaging is actually a fairly complex composite material itself. You have silica microspheres of various sizes as filler with CTE closely matched to the silicon, epoxy resin to bind it all together, and various other additives like carbon black to make it opaque (transistors can act like itty bitty solar cells when illuminated and cause the chip to malfunction, one of the Raspberry Pi's had problems using chips with exposed silicon that would make the board crash when you took a flash photo of it).
Also, gold bond wires are falling out of favor these days due to cost. Gold ball bonds (and aluminum wedge bonds) do still exist, but copper ball bonding is by far the most common in new products.
I’m proud of you Joe for refraining from Ocean Gate jokes.
0:14 that came out of nowhere, I nearly spat out my drink
No-effort November sounds like an actually really interesting idea - not even for the obvious reasons of "hooray, more content from someone who is already hella busy" but also just a peek into the more casual, realtime side of things rather than the highly-produced and scripted content. Sometimes I find thoughtdumping/vlogging style videos about projects to be far more interesting than anything scripted.
He does that often on Patreon and on his other channel but on this one, even when Joseph Bizzlington says it would be no-effort November, you know it’ll still be a polished product.
@@OrangeDurito I feel like his other channel is less 'low effort' and more 'leftovers/outtakes', but yeah I did kinda assume his paid patreon feed would be more churning out content / realtime updates rather than highly-produced stuff
These scans are always a real treat, love the failure analysis especially.
The 45 degree thing is basically a myth, even at low GHz frequencies it doesn’t make a difference at such a small scale.
If you care about aesthetics, use Mitxela’s PCB trace melting plug-in.
Think of it like knotting an extension cord and considering it a "signal" restriction, especially to those that do not understand what is REALLY going on, like the average John Q. Public types. 🙂
MIXTELA MENTIONED!!!! Love that guy
43 years ago I was doing LDRS type stuff and convinced my local school district in Texas to create a model rocketry / science related course for summer school. Had a lot of fun in that course!
Your videos are all great. Up next TLAM guidance systems!
2:42 As someone who has designed quite a few high frequency PCBs, heres my 0.02. Traces with sharp corners really dont matter until you get above 100MHz. I say this as someone who religiously adheres to the 45 degree rule: the main reason is just for packing density and aesthetics. I think people imagine traces like cars around a racetrack, which is not at all how electrons travel. Signal reflections happen whenever theres a change in impedance - if you're REALLY worried about right angles, you better make sure you dont have any parallel traces (capacitive coupling) and a tight return path. That right angle in your I2C bus isn't an issue. The real killer is bad layer stackups with return paths all over the place. I see engineers with decades of experience making this mistake, its actually pretty insane how few layouts I see are actually done correctly. Luckily, mostly digital designs like a flight computer are pretty forgiving, so in this case it probably doesn't matter too much. It's just frustrating when I see other engineers obsessing over inconsequential aesthetic details, and completely ignorant of the things that *actually* make a difference.
"in the interest of transparency"
:D
Amazing to see NDT on your channel! I work on ultrasounds and EC NDT software but this also looks amazing. The resolution is awesome!
If you're worried about your trace angles and stuff, just look at an old PCB when they were layed out by hand. All the compound curves! Angles galore! It's fine.
Hand layouts at 2:1 using tape and decals. Ah, memories.
Yeah right angles are the worst but the 90 and 45 corners are the easiest to calculate so .
Many people forget that swapping layers is two 90 degree bends at the via.
Modest speed digital circuitry is very tolerant these days if you have the recommended capacitors on the power rails. RF design is a totally different beast that cannot be generalised.
its a dam good day when bps posts
My buddy owns a NDI company in Kansas... I'm going to have to take advantage of this once I have some rockets built! Thanks for the inspiration and all the information!
im a medical CT tech at a trauma lvl 2 hospital, this is the coolest video tangentially related to my job ive ever seen. I wonder if Lumafield is hiring CT techs lol
May be worth a quick email!
RF Engineer here: You're making as what it seems to be a monopole antenna; this would indeed work best without a ground plane. Antennas which would benefit from a ground plane would be patch antennas (Aperature in general) which would only recieve from one half of the plane and be more directive.
I think your approach of a monopole works best for this type of chip. Very interested seeing it!
This has to be the best investment they could have made, barring you getting a machine. Amazing collaboration between Luma and BPS.
8:08 i see four 90° T-junctions at the top where there are 4 sqare solderpads in a sqare formation. It's just like shouting down a hallway with a 90° T-junction, you will get a terrible echo. That's why one should not only avoid 90° corners but 90° t-junctions aswell, you want the RF energy to follow the traces and not reflect back at you. If you look at the bottom left where the wide high-current trace is, that's a beautiful 45° junction.
That is so cool that we can check out the scans for everything! Thanks Lumafield!
"...which TSA loved even less." I remember taking my RC stuff, batteries and motors and whatnot, through airport security in the 80s. I kept it in an ammo bag! The security guy at the scanner stepped closer and UNDID THE SNAP ON HIS HOLSTER. And then I reached quickly for the bag - BIG mistake.
Ah, hobbies and airlines. Enjoy your future flights, Joe.
1:47 the MK20DX256VLH7 is in an epoxy package and the wires are called bond wires
(Or wire bonds)
Man, that part about mailing explosives really brought me back. Another SLAMMER from joe "the biz" barnard!
I had a friend that worked in Aircraft engineering. When he was X-raying parts he would sneak our questionable rock climbing gear into the edges of shot. Yes, we did find some cracks. We had one so bad it was just a tap on a table away from breaking in two. The cracks were to small to feel or see. Cool to see how far tech has changed in 20 yrs.
As someone who does NDT daily it was incredibly interesting to see the tech behind what Lumafield does, definitely the future for x-ray capabilities
You’ve really helped me start in model rocketry, thank you
You should try and find a place that offers scanning acoustic microscopy services and see how well that works on your phenolic and composite parts. It's supposed to be really good at finding subtle delaminations and voids that haven't opened up enough to be visible in X-ray / CT.
Hey Joe B! I had a question about thrust vector control rockets, and specifically your scout f landing. I was wondering if you were planning to release the software/code to the public along with a circuit board. I also have the very ambitious goal of propulsively landing a model rocket. I want to do this so that I can learn all of these skills, and hopefully feel accomplished and proud of my work after several years. Always a pleasure watching your videos!
0:33 heh, transparency, I see what you did there
Clearly.
@BPSspace, if you're designing boards with RF signals, look into ground stitching. Long story short its like putting a faraday cage around your RF lines to isolate them from noise.
It made my day to get home from reading CT scans on humans to get to see a CT scan of a rocket motor!!!
That was great. Thanks for sharing Jo.
0:38 Vention extrusion! I've had relatively good experiences with them
The main channel I wait for new episodes and watch right away. Love the series
I'm not even in the rocket game, but I love nerding out. Great content, Joe! I vote "Yes" for no effort November!
Great video. Reminds me of watching the USCSB's animations on industrial accidents.
Yup. This kinda stuff is pure gold. Thanks!
Great vid again. You need to make a large scale starship super heavy with clusters of vectoring motors on each stage
- JOHN 16:33 -
As someone who is COMPLETELY NEW to PCB Design and Electronics, I have a few questions:
- How did you Know / Learn what component the to Put / Add on the PCB?
- Are there any Exercise book on "Designing Schematics" and "PCB Layouts" that you recommended (or you yourself had used)?
- Are there any other Books/Resources that you recommend?
- Are there any Advice that you could give someone who is just starting out in Electronics, PCB Design & CAD?
PS: Well done on the video! Good quality; and as a viewer, I was well informed.
PLEASEE do no effort november ! i love that concept so much its hilarious
6:28 for BGA packages, there is no other way usually. you'll often have power and ground in the middle pads, so you route straight to vias and through the gnd/power plane(s), and have your decoupling on the back side.
I wish this technology existed back in the early 1990's when I did my Master's Degree. We were impacting composites and using penetrant dye in a tiny hole to mark the broken/delaminated areas, then taking a 2-D simple X-ray (onto Polaroid film)!
This is also why making high quality composites can be done even at the high-end DIY level these days. The technology we have these days is actually insane.
@21:01, nice rocket name.
Joe, as usual, outstanding stuff, although, probably not for you. It's just a "typical day in the Neighborhood" in your world. Thank you for the documentary AND the many "food for thought" moments.
I love this. You make such enjoyable videos.
They should sponsor you big time. Yes, you got the opportunity to use exciting tech you usually don't have access ro. However, you should not underestimate the marketing value of this video for the company.
These scans are beautiful 😍😍
And your expert commentary makes this so enjoyable and informative. Thanks Joe!
Duuuude your upload schedule has been on point these last couple of months. Loving every one of them!
Fun fact -- pull up a PCB from the 60's/70's/80's and you'll find the traces routed every which way. They only became straight lines when CAD based routing became a thing. The only thing that matters for high speed is the consistency of the surrounding copper.
interesting vid, thanks for sharing. On the boards: The later board isn't bad.. as you've learned, thermal reliefs can make a difference (the real trick is to design supplies that don't get warm) , you have some excess line lengths here and there. Also I'd try and put everything on one side of the board, solid ground plane on the other, digital away from analogue and RF as much as possible. Re antennas.. people sometimes say "a wire can form an antenna", but that's not true (mostly) what's true is "two wires form an antenna". like you can't get a current out of a battery by only connecting one terminal, antennas need to be balanced in some way, often against the ground beneath your feet (think large broadcast antennas). In the case of your board HALF your antenna is what you're calling your antenna, the other half is the board ground plane.. and all the stuff that has low impedance to the ground plane at the RF working frequency. I'm a RF R&D engineer, I've been doing this for over 30 years.
0:39 I remember when Adam Savage went there and had his mechanical calculator scanned in that same machine.
Lucky guys….
_"In aerospace we call this non-destructive testing."_ @9:49
No, this is non-destructive _imaging._ And very, very cool at that too.
NDT isn't limited to aerospace and includes ultrasonic inspection, eddy current inspection, magnetic particle inspection, liquid penetrant testing, radiological inspection, x-ray imaging and, if you're generous, Leeb hardness testing. That latter method _might_ leave a tiny little mark, so it isn't entirely non-destructive.
this is insane technology right there, 3D density model could be so useful, i hope it'll come as commercial machines someday, can't wait for future tech it's mind blowing !!!
These are commercial machines
Whoa Whoa Whoooa... you do all this w/o any (relevant.. well.. Music is pretty and vital for life, but doesn't lift rockets w/o help) school/background??
Damn dude.. respect!!
You're a rocking rocket autodidact !
He truly is! The range of skills this one person has is truly mind-boggling and almost all of those self-taught. Joe is an inspiration!
This is really awesome, thanks for sharing!
Hnnngh. Those scans. So good 🤩
I do enjoy that you had to get your stuff X-rayed, so that you could get them X-rayed.
I don't want to be in meat rocket
i kinda do but i'm here anyway
You already are every time you let one rip
@@custos3249huh yeah I guess the constructing anus and diverging asscheecks makes a crude De Leval Nozzle, bad TWR tho
@@judet2992*constricting but hahahaha 😂😂
@@judet2992 Depends on your TB factor, but that gets into the fine differences between hybrid and solid propellants per Taco Bell factor.
You definitely need to get a Coolidge tube and build your own x-ray machine 😉
LTT bought one of those scanner. It is cool what it can scan
Fun fact. If you place two rocket engines on top of each other something interesting happens. After the first engine reaches apogee and starts falling down the parachute charge sets off the second engine and it’s gets very exciting to watch when it goes straight down at a very high velocity.
No effort November please!!
Definitely interested in No effort November. And where's that Mach Tuah video?
Comment for the algo. Also, the one thing that would be genuinely more satisfying than a good cross-section would be the X-ray.
This radiologist thinks this is very, very cool.
You were literally four blocks from my office (Capella Space). The next time you are up here, I'd be happy to give you a tour.
Hardware (PCB) Engineer here- your self flagellation makes for good content, but its totally unwarranted. Your wonky traces might look funny, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. You aren't doing any high speed or RF stuff (other than the bluetooth) so that whole "NO 90 DEGREEEESSSS" thing is complete nonsense. Seriously, you should be proud of that work. Its good stuff. You can actually get the layout files for the Nvidia Jetson Orin AGX eval board. You'll find all kinds of cool wonky stuff going on in there. There's PCIe 4, HDMI, USB, and all kinds of other high speed stuff. If you're ever looking for some reference material for your next design, thats a good one to look at.
No Effort November sounds like the way to go. It'll coincide nicely with my No Shave November...
Yes for no effort November!!
Quite a bit better than the cobbled togther rig used for x raying epoxy block power modules.
TBH I'd kinda be more happier if it WAS sponsored than this weird middle-ground thing ("Not sponsored! But it was basically a free junket!"). I also tend to call "I received a service that would normally cost thousands of dollars, for free!" as sponsored, anyway. Especially if it's abundantly clear that it's a win-win collab and the other party are seem like generally good guys.
So when are you gonna have one of those machines on your shop? Together with a 5 axis CNC?
Hahaha, great video, as someone who is a Industrial Electronics and Electrical technician that also worked in CNC maintenance, I saw in some companies (those who work for government fields and research) CT machines for exactly that reason you shown: checking for failures in part lots.
I wonder if the voids in the enclosure mentioned at around the 10:45 are actually shadows in the imaging?
Yeah that's what I was thinking, considering you can see shadowing in that area elsewhere too and they have a very weird shape all things considered. They're large enough that if real, I wouldn't be surprised if they rung when struck lol
mach tuah on that rocket at the end killed me
The disney intro is just unexpected 😂
Let's just hope they won't sue you after few hours 😅
super cool sponsor too!
I would have loved to see a scan of your own motors to see the casting qualify.
I lived in San Franciso. I don't recall calling it Frisco, but I called it San Fran.
I notice that Amazon sells a variety of microphone handles at reasonable prices. For a small investment you can purchase one and then you'll be able to free up your vice-grip pliers for a more suitable application like a paper-weight.
fun to think maybe one day there will be a pocket device that we can just pop out and look through and see inside of things.
closest thing to having xray vision.
im working on a liquid rocket engine and man i love your stuff
Peeped the Leatherman holster during the sponsor, respect
Super interesting. Thank you!
My college had just gotten a CT scanner not long before I graduated. I didnt get to use it much but man that thing was wild. Also this video does not do those models and the layer filtering you can do justice. You could get just the solder to show up if you wanted.
Legit my favorite TH-camr. I am not in this field, but I'm just a fascinated nerd. Thanks for schooling me! GUHBYE
The 0 and 45 degree routing is mostly a convenience for the EDA software implementation point of view, there should actually be little to no difference in the signal integrity (a smooth track being a better choice rather than angles) for the MCU and speeds you are using, if you have signal integrity problems, a 90 degree angle is most probably not the culprit. You should have proper reference layers and nice decoupling etc. Tools like KiCAD even have round track extensions where you can turn your circuits angled traces into round ones with bezier curves
A+ thumbnail game. J-bizzles stuck his hand in an lethal-dose radiation X-ray machine for that shot. Risking radiation like a legend!