Through the Ages: Byzantines and Goths (AoE2)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- Part three of a mini-series looking back at the changes made to the original civilizations in Age of Kings. The focus this time is on Byzantines and Goths.
1:05 Byzantines
6:55 Goths
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Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition - เกม
I was happy when in DE Byzantines finally gained a new skin (from Middle Eastern one to Mediterranean one) since Byzantines having a mosque instead of a church was really weird.
But it was historically accurate, i mean the original design of the hagia sofia is just the template for many modern mosques so if you think about it they were right
@@mertroll1 that’s an exception really, the regular Byzantine churches looked nothing like mosques…
@@mertroll1 The Byzantine Empire was the heart of Orthodox Christianity - a mantle taken over by the Russian Empire after the Byzantine one felt - just like Vatican was/is the heart of Catholicism.
So them having mosques would be like Vatican having Mesoamerican or Asian like temples.
How is it a mosque without minarets?
Foreshadowing 😆
02:26 I found it hilarious that the guy who said the cataphracts were going to be good was the only one banned.
The rejected his message. They hated USE_YOUR_ILLUSION because he told them the truth.
I am very entertained at 7:14's "first, learn to spell Tuetons."
9:40 Interestingly, goths were the only civ with two unique techs in the conquerors expansion.
I was wondering about that
Huns didn't have Tarkarauders? Very interesting indeed
How did the icon look for the Anarchy/Perfusion?
@@The-jy3yq if i remember well they both looked the same
And Huns.
@@The-jy3yq same as they do now, one was gold the other silver.
I remember playing the Saladin campaign back in the 2000's and always going out of the way to convert as much cataphracts as possible. Just because how cool they looked
To me I enjoyed the mamluke especially the new upgrades it got for this campaign, an army of mamlukes with hit and run took down everything except for elite teutonic knights which were only seen in #6 of the campaign. But for the #4, at most I converted 5 of the cataphracts before heresy was a thing.
@@hbarudi in AoK you could even convert Heroes that thing was my favourite thing to do
@@mertt8800 That was when in Ghenghis Khan #6 they convert my Subotai and I used to convert their Kushluk in #2.
@@hbarudi And in Saracens #3 I think there was a hero too that tries to invade our 2nd base I always end up converting him to kill his army what was his name reynold or something
@@mertt8800 Ah yes I convert him and his cavaliers though they get only +1/+1 upgrades.
I remember when the free Loom tech was originally an Aztec bonus
Yeah now they get +50 starting bonus gold instead.
@@candrarazaka4351 so still a free loom technically then
@@YataTheFifteenth technically not, since 1 Villager worth of time is more than 50 gold
It's the early game, you need every bit of income you can get
That change of removing treadmill crane and essentially nerfing the civ at a point where it was considered to be one of the weaker civs is rather interesting. The Huns received the exact same change in that patch, so my theory is that it was actually an effort to balance two of the stronger deathmatch civs at the time in a way that doesn't interfere with their dark age starts.
the treadmill crane hit hardest in Deathmatch ( being able to build buildings like houses faster which allowed goths to get more of their faster producing infantry on the field - as their biggest issue isn't waiting for units to get made but having the pop space for them). it didn't have much to do with nerfing them in RM, as treadmill crane is almost never researched in RM games.
I love the fact you use gameplay clips depending on which expansion you're currently talking about.
I like your attention to details
Only a slight discrepancy, even the oldest clips are from after 2013 as given away by the fire on the buildings. A minor detail but I felt the need to point it out.
when i was a noob i always played Byzantines simply cause i thought the cataphracts looked cool and i wanted to use them
Same thing with me for Franks and Throwing Axemen
Same thing for me but with teutonic knights
Same thing, but it's the Bri'ish longbows for me.
@@Leon.Stanic Longbows for me as well lol
@@raw_zm that's the way, just snipe 'em all
The line "Goths were designed to be either loved or hated"...Vinchester took that to heart and loves them to hell and back ^^
I love how age of empires was like a perfect window, and the the devs said, "let's cause some chaos" and threw the goths at it. XD
The huskarl is low-key one of the best late game units. With the arrow defense bonus they really come into a clutch if you can make it to fast imp.
I just wish that there had been campaigns for the Byzantines. The Aleric campaign for the Goths gives me hope that we might still get one... Heraclius, Justinian/Belisarius, and Basil II would all make for great campaigns. Heck, so would Alexios Comnenos!
Bari is kind of, but yes, we need more Eastern Roman Empire badassery.
Yeah, I used to feel this way. There was so much content I wanted explored.
Once there was hope, but with the new devs making it you'd end up getting a unit released for the Byzantines that somehow isnt campaign only. Something like "Velite replaces Skirmisher- No upgrade cost, instant on hitting castle age, 12 pierce armor, 8 damage +20hp +8 bonus vs spears +12 bonus vs cav +20 bonus vs archers,+45 vs elephants each hit increases damage enemies take by 5, stacks infinintely" followed by a defense from byzantine players of "It has no bonus vs siege or melee armor so there's an obvious counter. Also just stop them from hitting castle age lmao."
I want to see the content but I dont want to see the game destroyed to get it : (
There is a mod, called Leo the Isaurian, which is a Byzantine campaign in 3 episodes, where you get to defend Constantinople. It’s really well done and gets an OG feeling. It’s not the oversaturated latest expansion kind of, if you know what I mean. One of the best custom campaign imo
The Byzantine Empire.
90% of its emperors were total degenerates. But it was the remaining 10% that earned it a fanclub.
How is there no campaign mission related to the Arab sieges of Constantinople in the 7th and 8th century?? I never understood that
That monk "nerf" was paired with a bug fix. Before the expansion a bug prevented Byzantine monks from healing units that weren't directly adjacent to them. So they healed the closest units to them at 300% speed but had to move to heal units that weren't in their direct line of sight. Ultimately Byzantine monks became much more effective in the expansion.
The Byzantines were the first civ I played as when I first got Age of Kings back in '99 mainly due to their extensive unit/tech tree.
I feel the absence of Supplies Tech for Goths (for balance purposes) was an indirect but huge nerf to the goths. Basically every other civ got a infantry buff and a little of the goth invision, but the goths civ got behind. Really a shame because Goths was my favorite civ before Supplies was introduced
Goths have a better version of supplies as their civ bonus. Same as how Byzantines lack architecture, but have a better version as their civ bonus.
Typically civs don't get the tech that does the same thing but weaker as their bonus: cumans no husbandry, celts no squires, franks no bloodlines etc. But supplies did weaken them yes.
Loom free but the discount only working from feudal onwards would have been perfect for goths i think, gives them more variety in their opening.
@@sniperdubey it seems you don't understand... they have better version of supplies indeed, BUT the addition of supplies in essence nerfed Goths against other infantry civs.
@@viktorianas No it didn't. Goths still comfortably beat all other infantry civs in the late game.
@@sniperdubey utter bollocks.
Oh this takes me back.
These two and Spanish were always my go-to when I first started playing. I didn't know much but I did like to have a full tech tree with Byz and Spanish, but also liked pulling off the Goth flood.
I’m a n00b despite playing for over 29 years.
I used to love Byzantine’s, now I love Goths.
"Cataphract, negating attack bonus since 1999." - Spirit of the Law.
2000*
@@masafromhell 1999.
@@masafromhell I'm just quoting what SotL say..
Indeed he said that, dont remember in which video, but it was some time ago. Well here is the mistake finally rectified.
@@belisarian6429 Italian civ overview...
Look it up..
Been waiting for my favorite original/AoK-Conq civ (Goths) with baited breath, so glad this came out.
Now i'm just hoping he continues this series to do all the civs in the game so i can see how my favorite new Civ, Bulgarians, have changed since their inception to now.
Not a single mention of the Goth Gameplan. My day is ruined.
In all seriousness, another interesting video. While they've never been quite my favorite, I have always liked the Byzantines as a kind of fall back when I want to play something a little comfortingly familiar, so it was cool to see them discussed. Thanks for the video!
The campaign is just an extended tutorial on how to infantry spam
I think the Goth's extra population space should be changed to +10%. So at to be usable at different population levels.
@@MrMarinus18 Do Goths need a buff?
I think it's hilarious that they retain their +10 pop space to this day
@@The-jy3yq I just think it will make the bonus function like it's supposed to as right now it's kind of an anachronism.
It actually won't affect Goths that much I would think. Their late game infantry flood is already pretty much unbeatable for all but a few other booming civilizations.
Though I always found their strong identity kind of weird cause there is no historical basis for it. For the Byzantines being a defensive civilization makes perfect sense as that's what they were for the majority of their history. They were located on some of the most valuable land in all of the near east so there really wasn't much incentive to go out and conquer.
The Goths though were not a large ethnic group at all nor did they focus much on infantry.
Nice series spirit, really interested in watching how the civs have changed in the last 20 years
Also i will love when you get to the Conquerors civs, specifically the Koreans. Probably you will need a video alone for them with their gigantic changelog 😂 considering they are the civ with the most rushed development in the game.
I miss the AoE2 vs. History series. That was really informative, I wish you made more of them.
I'm amazed at that ~50% winrate. As a long-term goth fan who fears nothing more than an army of catas, I can't imagine anything worse than a match up against byz. I've come to the crazy conclusion that teching into hand cannons is the go. (Yes goths get pretty much fu hand cannons.)
Through the Ages is a good name. You should make it the series' official name.
This series has been great. I remember being a kid and playing the AoK and AoC but never knew all the real differences. It’s cool to see the changes of game play and “meta” over time by changes enacted by the developers.
The +50% trample damage for Catas would have been hilariously OP against infantry, if I'm not wrong it would have factored in the bonus damage as well before halving the total damage
I have been following you for a very long time, and despite quitting the game many times and never being actually good at it, your videos always made me come back to it and enjoy it as the masterpiece it is. You have a truly unique way of seeing the game, of looking at the things behind the things behind the face of the game. Add that to being a great teacher and knowing how to explain even the most complicated equations in laymen's terms, and you have a recipe for showing us what we love about the game and don't even know it, in such an interesting way that even without playing the game you'd still enjoy it. You are by far one of my favourite youtubers, and definitely one I would never miss a video from.
8:47
I would like if maybe that get's addressed. That they change it to maybe giving 15% more population space. So in a 200 pop map that gives you 30 extra population space.
I love this series :D
Thank you for this and looking forward to the other civs
Something I never really understood is why the Goths were the only ones with two Unique Techs in Conquerors.
It was a way to buff them from age of kings
Maybe cause they didn't have any defensive capabilities so the devs went all In agresive production of infantry
These videos are amazing Spirit, keep up the great work! I loved the design of the old huskarl, their attacks were so brutal and exciting!
I love these videos about the changes to civs over time. I specially like learning about the development of the game! Great content!
Maybe it is time to rework the Goth Pop Cap bonus then if it was intended for 75 pop cap matches?
Goths gain 10 extra Pop in Imp => Goths gain +15% Pop in Imp
Pop 75: 86 Pop total
Pop 200: 230 Pop total
Pop 300: 345 Pop total
I think that way it would be much better.
I think with 300 pop that percentage would be OP, maybe 5-10% increase
That's more of a win more balance change though.
+10 pop is fine. It gives you a little extra breathing room when you are at your most powerful.
15% is too much. Maybe 10% would be okay.
@@sniperdubey Maybe rework it so they're always +10 vs. their actual population space (starting in Feudal Age to prevent an OP Dark Age?) and cap their max population at 210? It would give them a small buffer against getting housed.
This is an amazing series, please continue making more!
I love this dude's content, just love it ❤️
As someone who started playing this game way back on MSN Zone way back in the day, I love this series and seeing how things have changed over the years since I don’t get to play as much these days!
"Through the Ages" I love it! thats perfect!
I can confirm I started out playing the Byzantines precisely because Cataphracts looked incredibly cool! Of course, by now I've graduated to the ultimate in cool: the Teutonic Knight. ;) But I'll always have a soft spot for the Byzantines.
Those 2 need model update
Historical cataphracts looked just as awesome as teutonic knights
so nostalgic and so cool. can't wait for your next one!
These guides are indispensable for someone getting back into the game, thanks for making them.
Been waiting for this
Im so happy when this man uploads
this was great! keep em coming
Love those AoE 2 videos, would really enjoy to see a list of best non official campaigns from the mods tab. Keep up with the great work
loving this series
Can you do a video dedicated to the evolution of the AoE2 meta, please? I'd love to see it.
This is a great series!! Thanks SOTL!
I like the title mate, sounds great!
Love this series!
Love it! Looking for this one for a while thanks Spirit!!
Your mom îs dead😂😂😂😂😂
Dude you make the best videos man
Really enjoying this series! It takes me back to playing AoK back in the day. Though, you keep listing Team Bonus even though that wasn't added until much later.
Love these! Thank you SotL!
Interesting to see Greg Street's summary on the Huskarl and Goths. The term Huskarl is originally an Early Medieval Norse (i.e. Viking) one that was later imported into Anglo-Saxon England (see the Battle of Hastings scenario for instance). The function of the unit itself for the Goths is perfectly fine as is the skin, but the use of the term Huskarl for the Goths for it has always perplexed me. Now we know the backstory; it appears the AoE team must have thought the Viking/Saxon/Gothic/etc. 'barbarians' were much more closely related to each other than they actually were. Thanks for the content as always! 🤗
P.S.- I don't blame the developers much for making this mistake, the Goths and their branches (Visigoths, Ostrogoths, etc.) are extremely difficult to do research on due to a lack of proper historical sources, especially non-Roman (or Romano-Gothic) ones.
At the time (remember it was over 20 years ago), there wasn't as much research into the Germanic peoples, beyond their interactions with Rome. They were still viewed as one block from Scandinavia to the Balkans... There's been a ton of new research since 1999, especially archeology, and a lot of recontextualising of the "Fall" of Rome and the era of "Barbarian" Invasions, the field of history made a tectonic shift in the past two decades. The differences between them are also pretty subtle even with all the extra info we have today.
Just look for example at the massive difference between the Barbarian Invasions expansion for Rome Total War and Total War Atilla: same franchise and only half a decade apart, but the historiography is completely different!
@@jaspervanheycop9722 Nah, Creative Assembly just upped their game regarding historical accuracy after seeing the success of RTW mods like Europa Barbarorum. They learned that people didn't want to fight against Middle Kingdom Egypt in 270 BC.
Also remember that Barbarian Invasion was a total rush job with fewer provinces, multiple identical factions, and graphical/sound bugs galore. For God's sake- the Scotti Chariots still had the RTW Britons blue stag flags draped on the back. That's just lazy!
That said- I still loved that game. I'd play as the WRE, convert every province to Christianity on the first turn, and spam Sarmatian Auxilia to crush the hordes. Fast, heavy, expensive, and worth every denarius.
were the goths not originally from sweden before settling into middle europe and then spreading west?
@@aintfalco7968 That is a leading theory at the moment, yes. However it is far from 100% proven (academics still argue about how accurate it is, as the evidence for the early Goths is extremely scarce) and the term 'Huskarl' was never associated with them in Roman sources. It is also possible that future research could completely debunk the Scandinavian Goth hypothesis, but we shall see.
Very nice series!
After August patch Byzantines have got trademill crane, a good technology for them indeed.
Hey Spirit hoping the next one of these you can do is the Mongols I'm just super curious about their changes because I feel like they're very different than when I was a kid playing AoK and AoC. Love your channel, you were the first AoE account I stumbled upon and was what started getting me back into AoE after learning that there was a solid community surrounding this game. Thank you
These videos are great! I'd love to see you continue with civs introduced after AOK.
Only The Conquerors
I used to visit and post daily in those heaven games forums as a teenager back in 99 & early 2000s. So every time they pop up in these through the ages videos I’m pausing the video to read through them all, desperately hoping to see a comment from my younger self posted over 20 years ago. 🧐 😂
Love that you put these two in the same video, because they are the two civs that stuck out the most as a kid. When I played AoK and AoC, I determined the best civ as the one with the most tech available so I believed Byz were the best civ and Goths were the worst civ since they didn't even have stone walls. Only time I ever even considered playing Goths was on Team Nomad maps where I could put my TC next to my ally's, since I recognized that the reason they didn't have walls must mean they have the best offense.
Just found this series and can't believe my luck, my two favorite civs in the same video
I love this series!
I always loved the byzantines
And your channel made me appreciate the goths
Love this series!!!!
If you are curious about the meaning of perfusion: It means that the spirit of beeing a warrior flows through society like blood through an organ (so you find recruits better, and they are _not_ empty jarheads.
As German I confirm, that we are really good taking _any_ ideology way too far, like curenty climate protection.
Through the Ages is a perfect name for this series.
You are right as a newbie(although old af player,i never played strategically) Byzantine are my favorite due to their open tech tree. I love to upgrade all
Through the ages is a good title.
Has Ages in it, makes sense
I'm loving this series! One piece of thumbnail feedback, if I may, is that if you can find a way to make it work with the limited thumbnail real estate you have, it would be great to be more zoomed-in on the units. As it is, because of the small size at which you see video thumbnails both on mobile and on PC, the unique units look almost the same, but mirrored. It would make for a more striking thumbnail if it were zoomed in more and you could see the original pixely units contrasted with their high-res remasters better.
Still my favourite civilization. The history, the reactive playstyle, the open tech tree, the multi-faceted bonuses...
I am still a bit sorrowful that we never got a full proper campaign that let's us explore the faction's various strengths.
I know they weren't in Age of Kings but I would love to see one of these for the Huns.
7:14 is great. “First, learn to spell Tuetons”
I didn't even catch that at first, now that I went back with the time stamp I laughed out loud. "Turtons - no, it's Tuetons!"
I remember that in AoK in german the Kataphracts where Called Gepanzerte Reiter in Englisch maybe Heavy Armored Riders or Just Armored Riders. I wonder if this was changed later
I really like the title :)
Byzantines should also have a special Viking Unit as their unique infantry unit which would costs lots of gold ( in history, Vikings served them for gold )
interestly, that viking unit is the huskarl, from the goths
@@zharkabat
But they were called Varangs in Byzantine Empire.
@@SkyFly19853 Correct. The Huskarl were the body guard of the viking nobles. Some of them moved to the south as mercenaries and become the elite infantry of the Byzantines, the Varangs
@@zharkabat
yes, indeed.
I think they should have included them as unique Byzantine Units.
Would cost lots of gold and super good at attack.
My two favorite OG civs
BYZANTINES ARE FINALLY HERE LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
It’s interesting how these civilizations’ patches had radically different results compared to one another especially in DE.
5:50 nice editing
Love the name!
Great video as always! The subtitles though, there's something fishy going on there. Futile age(feudal age), cataracts (cataphracts), sieves(civs)...
10:30 that takes me back
One Change is missing. in german localisation the Catahaprakt was named in CD versions as "Gepanzerter Reiter"/"Armores Rider" and Elite Unit was the "Gepanzerter Elitereiter" only uniqe untit where the "Elite" was not written at the beginning of the Name. I think it was adresses in the Defiitie edition taht the german name was changed to Kataphrakt.
First time I've been back to this channel for about a year; what happened to the intro music? O_o
I hope they will buff Byzantine a little bit more. I would give them siege engineer and blast furnace and further reduce logistica price tag.
blast furnace byzantines would be strong AF for byzantines.
Camels, cavalier and paladins, cataphrat, pikes would all benefit a fair bit from it
I'd rather have bloodlines and reduce cataphract HP by 10. If it turns out too strong, revert the change and try something else. Cavalry play suffers from that lack of HP is punishing late game and against archers/siege.
I would like them to buff them defensively a bit (in keeping with the original vision). Maybe a buff to their repair speed or construction speed with certain structures. It would be an interesting challenge to make a defensive faction interesting to play as/against without just turning them into another civ with a strong tower rush.
@@CareerKnight That would somewhat tread on Spanish toes. They already repair faster in a roundabout way. Because they have higher HP, the amount repaired is higher.
Now that I've thought about it more they're one if the hardest civs to buff. Their tech tree is so broad buffing them is risky.
The a big issue is their economy. They have no bonuses. The lack of an offensive strength early on can't be leveraged either. I think they'll sadly remain mediocre at best.
@@Booklat1 yeah? but no one care if the Frank and Briton are Overpowered because anything that's either as strong or stronger than them are not allowed right? Byzantine at the moment has bottom win rate already and they have no offensive capability to win the game, being defensive only prevent you from losing too early but you will still lose in the end.
Hey SotL, this video reminded me of a really old strategy guide that I own for Age of Conquerors published in 2000. I can send you the book (it’s just taking up space for me) or scans of certain chapters. Lmk if you have an email I can contact.
Really wish fortified palisade walls become available as early as the feudal age. Also need the fortified palisade gate which is not available in the game.
my wonder on how Beta trample damage was; was maybe like the Siege ram. just imagining that alone would make me feel the "never before seen" cataphract understandable why they are now; instead of what they could have been behind dev doors.
I mean, shouldn't Cataphracts be expensive to tech into but powerful when fully upgraded? Historically, heavy cavalry were quite powerful, but also expensive to mass and maintain, since both the horses and riders were fully armored. If there's any valid criticism about the Cataphract, it's the same criticism about cavalry in AOE2 generally, that they fight standing still instead of remaining in motion.
It's just that they're too expensive to tech into
Mainly because they're kind of a worse Knight version in Castle Age and are not worth it without upgrades in Imperial
Normal Cav can work with Cavaliers, which are relatively cheap to upgrade into, Cataphracts need both their not cheap Elite upgrade and ultra expensive Logistica
Through the Ages is an awesome name
I could swear Byzantines had a special bonus to wall HP originally but I guess I'm suffering the game version of the Mandela Effect
byzantines are insane in team games from either pocket or flank/wing
Cataphrac.
My favourit unit :D
Getting town watch for free in the “futile age” is one of the funnier closed captions errors.
Byzantines became my favourite civilization around when I discovered the Forgotten mod. I for one dislike the architecture change just a bit, now they look identical to the Italians.
Still, quite nice all around. I keep want to get swordsmen with shields with the byzantines, and the Condottieri solves that.
In fact, the Italians ended up being my second favourite civilization due to that unit alone.
Byzantines as an actual eastern Roman Empire should get updated with Roman legionaries, that would make them more versatile and even more interesting
Let's be honest. The old cataphract looked much cooler.
Why haven't you done an interview with Sandy Petersen yet? Please do one.
Flush... That´s an older code, sir, but it checks out.
Video idea: to expand on the saracen market video, is it ever a good idea when ur against saracens to use the market with the goal of making trades worse for the saracen? Love ur content!
And what about saracens v saracens? Like what if one player goes gold and buys resources while the other goes farms and sells resources?