My wife and I are both just kinda spiritual. We both follow after the Lord but have never been to church together. Our wedding was a Pagan hand fasting by her best friend who is a good soul. I have chosen Jesus as my savior, but I am not arrogant enough to know what God is. Much less whether or not more than one path can be divine. It’s for me to pray about, but not to judge about.
Church is not a building, but a collective group of people who sincerely follow Christ and declare the true gospel. Just because you attend a building, does not mean you attend a church. If you are apart of smaller group, like in home churches, you are just as much "the church" as any building. We are the church.
Such a dismissive and tone deaf response to a legitimate question. I stopped attending organized Christianity years ago. I hunger for fellowship and sharing life with other believers and was not getting that in “church”. The Lord has his eternal grip on my heart and life and has NEVER bailed on me. He is still very spiritually rich towards me. Christians in the religious bubble cannot seem to grasp that the Lord equally loves other believers that look nothing like them. This pastor talks about “adhering to the word” and insinuating that if you don’t agree to his version of church life you are not saved or disobedient. However, he prefers to be blind to the fact that the structure, format and practice of his church is nowhere to be found in scripture. The role of the pastor as is expressed in 95% of churches today is Christianized Catholicism with pagan greek philosophy mixed in. Nowhere in the NT do you see a pastor in singular form, CEO a church, marrying people, preaching the word every Sunday behind the pulpit, collecting offerings, and doing marriage counseling. I also find it very ironic that churches are split into a gazzilion little pieces over debates on theology but the one doctrine they all mostly agree on is the doctrine of the tithe.
Every church I’ve been to has as a cesspit of ignorance. I’m talking queer bashing from the pulpit. Denying climate change. The whole gamut. If I have to be a moron to go to church, I’ll pass thank you God gave me an intellect and a kind spirit and I intend to use both.
I know lots of people who no longer go to Church. They still have a strong relationship with Christ, attend small groups, and serve the least of these, just not in the Church. My husband is one of these people. After it was discovered our pastor was cheating on his wife and stealing church money, he was done with the church. I am trying to find a new church for myself and our children but my husband will not allow me to donate money to any church. I am a sahm so I don't have my own income to donate on my own and I want to respect the wishes of my husband. We donate money as a family to several missionaries we know personally.
Donating to the church religiously is not helpful. Giving when/where needed and called for, out of compassion and out of obedience for Christ, is what is required.
Shouldn't expect a religious leader to be totally honest regarding the issue of church attendance , since it is their source for power, money etc. Conflict of interest
Pastors and other ministry leaders would benefit from asking and listening to these long-time members before they flee. This will require a change of habit. When it comes to listening, church leaders are too often in the habit of fawning over celebrity pastors for answers. It would be far more fruitful to take that time and spend it with real people nearby-existing members. Ask them some good questions, such as: 1. Why are you a part of this church? 2. What keeps you here? 3. Have you ever contemplated stepping away from church? Why or why not? 4. How would you describe your relationship with God right now? 5. How has your relationship with God changed over the past few years? 6. What effect, if any, has our church had on your relationship with God? 7. What would need to change here to help you grow more toward Jesus’ call to love God and love others?
John Piper is a great blessing to the church and myself, however, I believe this is not a question that a Pastor entrenched in the "Church" system can answer objectively.
This is the reason why i left my church. For 1, the pastor is a woman and forgive me if i offend any women here but the woman does not belong in the pulpit. Even the apostle Paul said this that's one. 2, the chuch is more like a old testament church. They still believe in the tithe and "first fruit" giving which is already abolished in the new testament based in 2 Corinthians 9:7. 3, alot of the times when i went to the church, whenever they had a special guest speaker, they always used to speak about money and it got me sick to the pit of my stomach. And 4, my pastor would take advantage of me from time to time and i frankly i didn't take it kindly whenever the pastor did this(co pastor). I just pray for once to find a very faithful and honest church but nowadays you can't even trust the church with all that's going on with these corrupted pastors.
I’ve been going to church since 1985 when I got saved and don’t feel any closer to God because it just feels like s social club where they want you to pay up 10% tithes (membership fee.)
I have been so painfully persecuted in churches, nd supposed men of god wanting their way with me, it's like I subject myself to hurts when I visit churches. But may God lead on also this.
Well maybe leader and members of churches shouldn’t be cultish and arrogant and worse than average people? Think of that? Christians have hurt me more than anyone else I still love God but I don’t want to be around those who claim to be his people.
The content of the interview was so unbiblical. No where in the Bible specifically states that the “church” is an institution. In fact Matthew 18:20 clearly states that where there are two or three, God’s presence will be in the midst. The “church” are Jesus followers that do the will of God. Read the Bible and fully surrender your self to Jesus and he will give you the understanding of the scriptures. Look what’s happening to our churches, the most common theme is a washed down gospel. This is happening because some church leaders are focusing on the number of attendees instead of the number of souls they will be saving. By the way, Jesus ministry only lasted three years. Going to church may definitely be necessary for a non believer at first, but once you get that foundation (hoping it was from a true Jesus preaching church) you’re expected to go into the world and put it to good use.
Yes, but we are also called to fellowship. It's hard for me to see someone who even doesn't want to be part of a larger assembly, having a good heart about it, if they are advocating against it. That is spiritual bitterness being masked with scriptures. If you want to be in a smaller assembly fine if you delight in bigger assemblies fine too. As long as its doctrinally sound, they both are there to bring about fellowship. Its only where you discourage that , is where you are in the wrong. The same Paul we often refer to, spent time writing about the importance of assembly and roles of the different offices within that. But yet we spend time trying to further divide the community into smaller and smaller groups until its easy for us to be scattered. The model set in the Bible gives a wholesomeness to the assembly, someone who pastors, evanlegists, establish other churches, teachers, etc, covers all grounds in order to service the sheep, strengthen the community of people, give order, and cover all resources needed to go out and preach the gospel and make disciples. Thats the point. That can happen no matter what size, but alot harder if its a smaller group. I understand the wickedness that goes on in larger assemblies, and people have to discern that and make that decision to leave or not on a individual basis.But that's not because of the size, its because of the lack of knowledge and desire for God. That can happen anywhere.
a church is not a group of perfect people but one that encourages each other in scripture prayer charity , team work and helping everyone through hard times . There will always be bad churches amoung good churches ( that is good as in to trust in Gods word when times are hard) But no church gets everything right because we are a fallen people .
Abraham is the best example if the idols are just a piece of wood. Where did his journey go? Traditions are your people's idols. Just like Jesus said about yeast. Of all the characters in the bible I would be surprised if they would be willing to even step foot in the church of today, definitely would not be acceptable in church as upstanding people. The church does not need defenders it needs real character
"I like your Christ but not the Christians, they are so unlike Christ" Gandhi Many people left their church, religion, biblical dogmas & doctrines to find God, I think these are the spiritual seekers & warriors who like to get out of their " box of limiting beliefs" to find Truth!
I respect Ptr. John Piper and I love his views especially about christian hedonism. The problem with the one who asked the question is that he asked a pastor who is running a traditional church and not a simple organic house church. We should realize that one can leave a traditional church setting (held in buildings or mega-churches) and still join a small church (house churches). As a summary of the christian hedonism philosophy "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him," we can be confident that leaving a building because we want the real thing (community life and a more intimate dynamic of small group churches) is not deviating from God's will but in fact a step to a more closer understanding of what really church is all about.
giving isn't only about to give to church.. donate it to help others or etc.. religion ,church, pastors, bishops priest, can't save you but only Jesus,,
That's right religion is a control system that only wants your money. Jesus doesn't want your money because he makes miracles not even a pastor can do. God and Jesus is a spirit and we must worship them n spirit and truth. You can learn more truth over at Tireo TH-cam channel.
A better question would be: What is Christ's true church? They're not all serving Him; they're not all preaching the full gospel; and many are preaching a gospel other than that which is true and pure. Again and again I encounter two divergent camps, and both are sickening: the extreme legalists who make no room for error or failure, who place a strong yoke on people rather than freedom; the other extreme is the hyper-grace church that gives license to sin and never corrects, disciplines, or admonishes believers. More and more, I am finding that I do not want to belong in either camp. We shouldn't rule over people with an iron hand and threaten folks with impending judgment, again and again; nor should be disregard the New Testament epistles which warn us to turn away from sin that controls us and hinders true fellowship in the body. . But what is most disturbing to me isn't everything that is wrong with THEM, the church, but rather with me! I find that I vacillate between these two camps, sometimes condemning people when they sin, sometimes justifying my sinful ways. If there is no victory over sin, where is the efficacy of Christ's atoning work? If Christ died to set us free, shouldn't we be experiencing that freedom? Shouldn't we see changes in our walk, growth in the Spirit? That is what I ask myself when I ponder the path I'm on. And frankly, lately, it scares me, because I'm tired of the struggle. Not a natural, normal, expected struggle, but one which leads me away from victory over the flesh. There HAS to be a path to freedom in Christ, or it's all a lie.
So frustrating! There is difference between "a church" and "the Church". Yes, sometimes one should leave a church if it isn't part of the Church. If s/o doesn't understand what I just wrote, they're not understanding the concept that Jesus' body is called the Church. It is made up of believers who love Jesus and who FOLLOW him as Lord. It is not a building. It is universal and worldwide and across all time. If I read the caption, the word Church is capitalized and so I agree with John Piper. One cannot love Jesus and leave the Church. However, if a church starts abandoning the teachings of Jesus, then it's that church that has left the Church and one SHOULD leave and find one that follows scripture. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is a Christian. Following Christ is about action, not talk. It is fruitful because it remains in the Vine. I wish John Piper had addressed the possibility that this may have been the question because there are horrible churches out there that are ignoring sin, are full of greed, immorality, and hypocrisy or are even evil and destructive. I think John Piper was understanding the question to mean Church with a capital "C". If that was the question, I agree with him on the answer.
John Piper normally gives a well thought out, argued reasoned and Biblical response to a question. This was one of the poorest responses I've ever heard from him with no reference to any Biblical verses at all.
He also gives a terrible answer for a woman being abused who sought his advice. He consistently tells people who are being abused by an authoritative figure in their life to submit to it. His teachings are toxic.
You have totally missed the point about why people are leaving corporate church. They are leaving because it is not based on the bible but a business model, modeled after the Roman Catholic system of a division of labor, i.e. clergy and laity that is in no way biblical. If we look at where the ekklesia met after Jesus was resurrected, we find them in homes, not professional buildings such as the synagogue. Yes, there was and still is an organization to the ekklesia, but not the business model we have today which is based on the current model of hierarchical maneuvering of powerful people within the organization. Do you even realize that you have patterned the paradigm of "pastor" on one verse in Ephesians 4:11?
bcoz God it self says two or more gathered together He is in the midst of them so if you think we're my giving goes or etc then create a Christian church that it's foundation is biblical...
Of course a pastor would say to not leave a church.... But THE BIBLE says forever two or three are gathered in his name he is in the midst.. THE BIBLE SAYS whosoever should call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, it does not say whosoever shall call upon the Lord and attend church shall be saved. Mandatory is not in the bible. And also making it mandatory, makes it a works based salvation. When we assemble together it doesn't have to be in a certain building on a certain day of the week. And it certainly does not have to be a big congregation. The physical church building in Sunday worship was not established until emperor Constantine made it law in the year 300 and something.
Dont put your faith in a Pastor......He is only a man.......fallen....broken.....sinful......yet forgiven just like us! Good luck in your search......Keep your eyes upon God....Pray for wisdom and direction.
I take it that you are addressing people who give up on church altogether and not those who leave a particular congregation or denomination because they believe it is not spiritual, or in error somehow?
how about if my offerings were used to drug dealing and we were supposed to fallow and do alot of things that weren't biblical and somethings the Bible says were turned around! and if you didn't fallow the rules they made you were shunned???
Neil Carpenter I agree with you, I'm going to a church again but we moved a different country and the church we go now I trust them, but in the past I lived among very corrupt churches that focused more on their man made rules some were actually against the Bible than on biblical truth
Nataly Falk I think Piper's point is more around the collective church. That it is wrong to leave the the collective church and try be a "Christian" in isolation when the bible clearly states that we are to be in community. I don't believe he is making the point that it is wrong to leave the individual church (especially if it's corrupt) to go to another with other believers. Obviously there is the call to be devoted to one community and one church which is another topic that I won't delve into.
A lot of you “Christians” need to read Hebrews 10:23-25. You can try the argument saying that’s not saying go to a church- but I don’t see that verse meaning anything else! A church is nothing more than a group of believers worshipping God, ministering to one another and others, and above all else reading and teaching faithfully the very word of God! You can’t attend one time and then dismiss church all together. No church is perfect, it’s a group of fallible men and women meeting to worship their Savior! You aren’t perfect either. Fellowship is crucial to your spiritual walk- you cannot grow without it.
If you can’t trust the leadership and these men don’t care about making sure the men aren’t wolves like the Bible warns about. John shows no concern for if these men are safe or rebuked or changed for better men….I’ve never heard of a church that listened to non leadership concerns. They are too authoritative which is why you can’t trust them. Trust Jesus and not men and find others who were also ignored by the established church system and then you’ll have a real church.
Nice mind control answer. Jesus founded NO church or religion. He had an ASSEMBLY of men, which means "to be called out". Also - Jesus exists regardless of whether or not the Bible exists. The Bible is not god.
How Can Normal , Sane , Intelligent People Believe In This BS ??? .......................................................................................................................
ason robert or even go and read the bible yourself and try and answer the same question from scripture. It's great to have access to this great commentary but without a firm understanding of the bible ourselves how are we to discern the truth in what Piper is saying? Edit: This sounded like I disagreed with this video, I don't. I fully believe that leaving the Church is leaving Jesus and leaving faith.
Neil Carpenter I trust no one place for insight into the Bible. I've searched a broad and have found many wanting. And few worthy of my attention. If I see preachers without understanding or straight up contradicts Yeshua. What good are they to anyone?
Ason, have you read Titus? It gives us a bit of structure to follow for the church body including deacons and pastors. We are also told to regularly meet with fellow believers.
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Asking a pastor if it is ok to be done with church on Sunday is like asking the IRS if it is ok to not pay taxes.
😂
Right
My wife and I are both just kinda spiritual. We both follow after the Lord but have never been to church together. Our wedding was a Pagan hand fasting by her best friend who is a good soul.
I have chosen Jesus as my savior, but I am not arrogant enough to know what God is.
Much less whether or not more than one path can be divine.
It’s for me to pray about, but not to judge about.
Church is not a building, but a collective group of people who sincerely follow Christ and declare the true gospel. Just because you attend a building, does not mean you attend a church. If you are apart of smaller group, like in home churches, you are just as much "the church" as any building. We are the church.
I LOVE THIS! Just because you attend the building does not mean you attend the "CHURCH"! AMEN.
Such a dismissive and tone deaf response to a legitimate question. I stopped attending organized Christianity years ago. I hunger for fellowship and sharing life with other believers and was not getting that in “church”. The Lord has his eternal grip on my heart and life and has NEVER bailed on me. He is still very spiritually rich towards me. Christians in the religious bubble cannot seem to grasp that the Lord equally loves other believers that look nothing like them. This pastor talks about “adhering to the word” and insinuating that if you don’t agree to his version of church life you are not saved or disobedient. However, he prefers to be blind to the fact that the structure, format and practice of his church is nowhere to be found in scripture. The role of the pastor as is expressed in 95% of churches today is Christianized Catholicism with pagan greek philosophy mixed in. Nowhere in the NT do you see a pastor in singular form, CEO a church, marrying people, preaching the word every Sunday behind the pulpit, collecting offerings, and doing marriage counseling. I also find it very ironic that churches are split into a gazzilion little pieces over debates on theology but the one doctrine they all mostly agree on is the doctrine of the tithe.
I didn't leave the Church the Church left me. They've back stabbed me and treated me terribly.
Every church I’ve been to has as a cesspit of ignorance. I’m talking queer bashing from the pulpit. Denying climate change. The whole gamut. If I have to be a moron to go to church, I’ll pass thank you
God gave me an intellect and a kind spirit and I intend to use both.
I know lots of people who no longer go to Church. They still have a strong relationship with Christ, attend small groups, and serve the least of these, just not in the Church. My husband is one of these people. After it was discovered our pastor was cheating on his wife and stealing church money, he was done with the church. I am trying to find a new church for myself and our children but my husband will not allow me to donate money to any church. I am a sahm so I don't have my own income to donate on my own and I want to respect the wishes of my husband. We donate money as a family to several missionaries we know personally.
Donating to the church religiously is not helpful. Giving when/where needed and called for, out of compassion and out of obedience for Christ, is what is required.
Shouldn't expect a religious leader to be totally honest regarding the issue of church attendance , since it is their source for power, money etc. Conflict of interest
Jesus didn’t say go to a special building every weekend, and submit yourself and your money to a paid clergy.
This video is nonsense.
Pastors and other ministry leaders would benefit from asking and listening to these long-time members before they flee. This will require a change of habit. When it comes to listening, church leaders are too often in the habit of fawning over celebrity pastors for answers. It would be far more fruitful to take that time and spend it with real people nearby-existing members. Ask them some good questions, such as:
1. Why are you a part of this church?
2. What keeps you here?
3. Have you ever contemplated stepping away from church? Why or why not?
4. How would you describe your relationship with God right now?
5. How has your relationship with God changed over the past few years?
6. What effect, if any, has our church had on your relationship with God?
7. What would need to change here to help you grow more toward Jesus’ call to love God and love others?
@Son of Jesus AMEN
John Piper is a great blessing to the church and myself, however, I believe this is not a question that a Pastor entrenched in the "Church" system can answer objectively.
This is the reason why i left my church. For 1, the pastor is a woman and forgive me if i offend any women here but the woman does not belong in the pulpit. Even the apostle Paul said this that's one. 2, the chuch is more like a old testament church. They still believe in the tithe and "first fruit" giving which is already abolished in the new testament based in 2 Corinthians 9:7. 3, alot of the times when i went to the church, whenever they had a special guest speaker, they always used to speak about money and it got me sick to the pit of my stomach. And 4, my pastor would take advantage of me from time to time and i frankly i didn't take it kindly whenever the pastor did this(co pastor). I just pray for once to find a very faithful and honest church but nowadays you can't even trust the church with all that's going on with these corrupted pastors.
My dad left because the church kept taking money from him.
I’ve been going to church since 1985 when I got saved and don’t feel any closer to God because it just feels like s social club where they want you to pay up 10% tithes (membership fee.)
This video is so full of cult mentality, error, and corruption...
Are you surprised? It’s John Piper after all.
I have been so painfully persecuted in churches, nd supposed men of god wanting their way with me, it's like I subject myself to hurts when I visit churches. But may God lead on also this.
Sounds like you've experienced too much in the way of Spiritual abuse. I am so sorry.
I am constanty encountering it. Fed up.
Believers are the church, not the building
this comment section is the church
Well maybe leader and members of churches shouldn’t be cultish and arrogant and worse than average people? Think of that? Christians have hurt me more than anyone else I still love God but I don’t want to be around those who claim to be his people.
The content of the interview was so unbiblical. No where in the Bible specifically states that the “church” is an institution. In fact Matthew 18:20 clearly states that where there are two or three, God’s presence will be in the midst. The “church” are Jesus followers that do the will of God. Read the Bible and fully surrender your self to Jesus and he will give you the understanding of the scriptures. Look what’s happening to our churches, the most common theme is a washed down gospel. This is happening because some church leaders are focusing on the number of attendees instead of the number of souls they will be saving.
By the way, Jesus ministry only lasted three years. Going to church may definitely be necessary for a non believer at first, but once you get that foundation (hoping it was from a true Jesus preaching church) you’re expected to go into the world and put it to good use.
Yes, but we are also called to fellowship. It's hard for me to see someone who even doesn't want to be part of a larger assembly, having a good heart about it, if they are advocating against it. That is spiritual bitterness being masked with scriptures. If you want to be in a smaller assembly fine if you delight in bigger assemblies fine too. As long as its doctrinally sound, they both are there to bring about fellowship. Its only where you discourage that , is where you are in the wrong.
The same Paul we often refer to, spent time writing about the importance of assembly and roles of the different offices within that. But yet we spend time trying to further divide the community into smaller and smaller groups until its easy for us to be scattered.
The model set in the Bible gives a wholesomeness to the assembly, someone who pastors, evanlegists, establish other churches, teachers, etc, covers all grounds in order to service the sheep, strengthen the community of people, give order, and cover all resources needed to go out and preach the gospel and make disciples. Thats the point. That can happen no matter what size, but alot harder if its a smaller group.
I understand the wickedness that goes on in larger assemblies, and people have to discern that and make that decision to leave or not on a individual basis.But that's not because of the size, its because of the lack of knowledge and desire for God. That can happen anywhere.
a church is not a group of perfect people but one that encourages each other in scripture prayer charity , team work and helping everyone through hard times . There will always be bad churches amoung good churches ( that is good as in to trust in Gods word when times are hard) But no church gets everything right because we are a fallen people .
Abraham is the best example if the idols are just a piece of wood. Where did his journey go? Traditions are your people's idols. Just like Jesus said about yeast. Of all the characters in the bible I would be surprised if they would be willing to even step foot in the church of today, definitely would not be acceptable in church as upstanding people. The church does not need defenders it needs real character
Jesus said when two or three gather in my name I am there.... That's the church.
A pastor leading a church saying not going to church is leaving jesus? Shocking.
I know, right? It’s like asking a chef if eating out is a good idea.
it's like asking the IRS if it is ok to not pay taxes
"I like your Christ but not the Christians, they are so unlike Christ" Gandhi
Many people left their church, religion, biblical dogmas & doctrines to find God, I think these are the spiritual seekers & warriors who like to get out of their " box of limiting beliefs" to find Truth!
I respect Ptr. John Piper and I love his views especially about christian hedonism. The problem with the one who asked the question is that he asked a pastor who is running a traditional church and not a simple organic house church. We should realize that one can leave a traditional church setting (held in buildings or mega-churches) and still join a small church (house churches).
As a summary of the christian hedonism philosophy "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him," we can be confident that leaving a building because we want the real thing (community life and a more intimate dynamic of small group churches) is not deviating from God's will but in fact a step to a more closer understanding of what really church is all about.
giving isn't only about to give to church.. donate it to help others or etc..
religion ,church, pastors, bishops priest, can't save you but only Jesus,,
That's right religion is a control system that only wants your money. Jesus doesn't want your money because he makes miracles not even a pastor can do. God and Jesus is a spirit and we must worship them n spirit and truth. You can learn more truth over at Tireo TH-cam channel.
A better question would be: What is Christ's true church? They're not all serving Him; they're not all preaching the full gospel; and many are preaching a gospel other than that which is true and pure. Again and again I encounter two divergent camps, and both are sickening: the extreme legalists who make no room for error or failure, who place a strong yoke on people rather than freedom; the other extreme is the hyper-grace church that gives license to sin and never corrects, disciplines, or admonishes believers. More and more, I am finding that I do not want to belong in either camp. We shouldn't rule over people with an iron hand and threaten folks with impending judgment, again and again; nor should be disregard the New Testament epistles which warn us to turn away from sin that controls us and hinders true fellowship in the body. .
But what is most disturbing to me isn't everything that is wrong with THEM, the church, but rather with me! I find that I vacillate between these two camps, sometimes condemning people when they sin, sometimes justifying my sinful ways. If there is no victory over sin, where is the efficacy of Christ's atoning work? If Christ died to set us free, shouldn't we be experiencing that freedom? Shouldn't we see changes in our walk, growth in the Spirit? That is what I ask myself when I ponder the path I'm on. And frankly, lately, it scares me, because I'm tired of the struggle. Not a natural, normal, expected struggle, but one which leads me away from victory over the flesh. There HAS to be a path to freedom in Christ, or it's all a lie.
So frustrating! There is difference between "a church" and "the Church". Yes, sometimes one should leave a church if it isn't part of the Church. If s/o doesn't understand what I just wrote, they're not understanding the concept that Jesus' body is called the Church. It is made up of believers who love Jesus and who FOLLOW him as Lord. It is not a building. It is universal and worldwide and across all time. If I read the caption, the word Church is capitalized and so I agree with John Piper. One cannot love Jesus and leave the Church. However, if a church starts abandoning the teachings of Jesus, then it's that church that has left the Church and one SHOULD leave and find one that follows scripture. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is a Christian. Following Christ is about action, not talk. It is fruitful because it remains in the Vine. I wish John Piper had addressed the possibility that this may have been the question because there are horrible churches out there that are ignoring sin, are full of greed, immorality, and hypocrisy or are even evil and destructive. I think John Piper was understanding the question to mean Church with a capital "C". If that was the question, I agree with him on the answer.
I go to church every weekend and some weekdays. I spend time with our dying veterans at my local VA Hospital as a volunteer. That's church!
You can substitute home church for so called organized church. You can listen to Jesus and ignore church leaders that seek to own you.
There are two churches on earth 1. Man run with mostly unregenerate people. 2. God's elect who mostly don't attend #1.
Every human being is “God’s elect”. What a hopeless state calvinists are in...🤦🏼♂️
this pastor that answered this question sounded VERY manipulative
What about church hurts its all iv got in churches so sad .
Nope. I'm through with cathedrals, bands and country club fellowship.
John Piper normally gives a well thought out, argued reasoned and Biblical response to a question. This was one of the poorest responses I've ever heard from him with no reference to any Biblical verses at all.
He also gives a terrible answer for a woman being abused who sought his advice. He consistently tells people who are being abused by an authoritative figure in their life to submit to it. His teachings are toxic.
You have totally missed the point about why people are leaving corporate church. They are leaving because it is not based on the bible but a business model, modeled after the Roman Catholic system of a division of labor, i.e. clergy and laity that is in no way biblical. If we look at where the ekklesia met after Jesus was resurrected, we find them in homes, not professional buildings such as the synagogue. Yes, there was and still is an organization to the ekklesia, but not the business model we have today which is based on the current model of hierarchical maneuvering of powerful people within the organization. Do you even realize that you have patterned the paradigm of "pastor" on one verse in Ephesians 4:11?
bcoz God it self says two or more gathered together He is in the midst of them so if you think we're my giving goes or etc then create a Christian church that it's foundation is biblical...
...then be a part of changing the church. don't just give up on it.
Of course a pastor would say to not leave a church.... But THE BIBLE says forever two or three are gathered in his name he is in the midst.. THE BIBLE SAYS whosoever should call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, it does not say whosoever shall call upon the Lord and attend church shall be saved. Mandatory is not in the bible. And also making it mandatory, makes it a works based salvation. When we assemble together it doesn't have to be in a certain building on a certain day of the week. And it certainly does not have to be a big congregation. The physical church building in Sunday worship was not established until emperor Constantine made it law in the year 300 and something.
Jesus founded the church, but not yours or the 30,000 confused man made denominations.
I don’t understand the point of church... I’ve been to plenty.
Dont put your faith in a Pastor......He is only a man.......fallen....broken.....sinful......yet forgiven just like us! Good luck in your search......Keep your eyes upon God....Pray for wisdom and direction.
I take it that you are addressing people who give up on church altogether and not those who leave a particular congregation or denomination because they believe it is not spiritual, or in error somehow?
Pastors dont preach the Word.hello!!!!the church has become a big show.
how about if my offerings were used to drug dealing and we were supposed to fallow and do alot of things that weren't biblical and somethings the Bible says were turned around! and if you didn't fallow the rules they made you were shunned???
Neil Carpenter I agree with you, I'm going to a church again but we moved a different country and the church we go now I trust them, but in the past I lived among very corrupt churches that focused more on their man made rules some were actually against the Bible than on biblical truth
Nataly Falk I think Piper's point is more around the collective church. That it is wrong to leave the the collective church and try be a "Christian" in isolation when the bible clearly states that we are to be in community. I don't believe he is making the point that it is wrong to leave the individual church (especially if it's corrupt) to go to another with other believers.
Obviously there is the call to be devoted to one community and one church which is another topic that I won't delve into.
A lot of you “Christians” need to read Hebrews 10:23-25. You can try the argument saying that’s not saying go to a church- but I don’t see that verse meaning anything else! A church is nothing more than a group of believers worshipping God, ministering to one another and others, and above all else reading and teaching faithfully the very word of God! You can’t attend one time and then dismiss church all together. No church is perfect, it’s a group of fallible men and women meeting to worship their Savior! You aren’t perfect either. Fellowship is crucial to your spiritual walk- you cannot grow without it.
If you can’t trust the leadership and these men don’t care about making sure the men aren’t wolves like the Bible warns about. John shows no concern for if these men are safe or rebuked or changed for better men….I’ve never heard of a church that listened to non leadership concerns. They are too authoritative which is why you can’t trust them. Trust Jesus and not men and find others who were also ignored by the established church system and then you’ll have a real church.
Did Adam go to church on sunday? did eve, did noah?
Did Jesus go to church on sunday when he went into the wilderness for 40 days?
No Jesus did not! You’re creating
Nice mind control answer. Jesus founded NO church or religion. He had an ASSEMBLY of men, which means "to be called out". Also - Jesus exists regardless of whether or not the Bible exists. The Bible is not god.
I don’t think he’s talking about a physical building in the video
Yeah John ur wrong brother sorry. (:
Remember tares are in the church.....plenty!
When you have trust issues with everybody in any church or follow ship it pretty bad Jesus said the Path is narrow and few be that find it
How Can Normal , Sane , Intelligent People Believe In This BS ??? .......................................................................................................................
unsubscribeing now
ason robert or even go and read the bible yourself and try and answer the same question from scripture. It's great to have access to this great commentary but without a firm understanding of the bible ourselves how are we to discern the truth in what Piper is saying?
Edit: This sounded like I disagreed with this video, I don't. I fully believe that leaving the Church is leaving Jesus and leaving faith.
Neil Carpenter I trust no one place for insight into the Bible. I've searched a broad and have found many wanting. And few worthy of my attention. If I see preachers without understanding or straight up contradicts Yeshua. What good are they to anyone?
Ason, have you read Titus? It gives us a bit of structure to follow for the church body including deacons and pastors. We are also told to regularly meet with fellow believers.
I disagree👎
Yikes….
This is laughable