IHC Hotshot Crews, Listen Up!!!!! Comms Safety Concerns.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- Yarnell fire Briefing, • Yarnell Hill
Noticed a pattern among Hotshot Fire crews with their handheld radio programming. It may pose a problem when an emergency breaks out on the fireline. Sort of reminds me of the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew Yarnell Hill incident where 19 firefighters lost their lives trapped by fire and radio problems was one among many other factors that contributed to this tragedy. Just an impromptu armchair quarterbacking on comms issues I see with Hotshot crews radio programming.
Yarnell hill fire after action briefing.
• Yarnell Hill
disaster EMCOMM preparedness
Thx for the heads up. Having worked on a hotshot crew for years, most know how to program these radios but don't understand the intricacies of communications. They are reluctant to clone their radios because they are typically denied a crew freq....which they really rely on.
I will forward your video to my old crew and help spread the word. I'm sure they will be grateful.
Thank you sir... You've made my day. I've heard both arguments from both sides about unauthorized incident frequencies and the arguments will continue after I'm long gone. But at least a little knowledge could keep everyone on the same safe page by adjusting their tactics and keeping their way of doing business. Thank you for your service..
You're 100% correct! Until a compromise is found, the "secret" crew fx will always exist.
Excellent video. When I wrote our templates for 800 years ago I always left the first and last slot across zones to allow someone encapsulated in an IDLH environment the ability to reach someone. Field programming is something that can get the user into deep s**t if not paid attention to. A missed PL or inverted pair is no bueno. Just sent a swiftwater element to TX today - I did what was needed to get them wheels up and being retired my hand holding is limited. Thanks for sharing !
I have been seeing this trend myself. I have been educating crews anytime I come across this and suggesting an alternative location for crew channel. I try to put an open channel in Ch15 of the 205 (which I usually just put the local NOAA weather Freq). I am often surprised that IHC and T2 crews are not aware of what Air Guard is and what it's for. It seems like that it is the newest guy on the crew that gets tasked with radio programming/cloning, so working with these guys seems to go along way. Thanks for the videos! I know they're a lot of work to make but they are appreciated.
You're 100% right. Crew frequencies are used but frowned on due to the fact that critical information isn't getting out during burn overs. I've never heard of Airguard getting omitted in lieu of crew channels but you just showed that it's happening and that's f'd up. We carry 800 Mhz radios for task related comms plus a BK for incident related comms. I was involved in a burn-over in 2012 and we were criticized for using our 800 Mhz radios to advise our strike team leader we were aborting our assignment and en route to our TRA. The pumper below us on the hill was already on fire and the BK was non stop traffic on VHF. Without our 800 Mhz radio our STL and Div Sup would have thought we were toast. In the end, a National Guard Blackhawk dropped a bucket of water and took the heat out the fire below us and we lived to see another day. BTW, Airguard was used to hail air support in that situation and it worked. Great video!
Glad you made it out of there!
Great point GC. Our comms div. has to program any radios on large brush here...Guess I should say we are out in the north east of the US.
Thanks for stepping up
Seems like some solid advice man, have a plan, stick with it ! take care bud, good seeing ya!
I don't know if this was a valid issue since the entire investigation report seems to be in question, but the report mentioned disparate tones. At the time of the Yarnell Hill fire a national standard for tones did not exist. California (all fire agencies and all state agencies including the state highway department) had 16 and it didn't matter what external tone box you had if someone told you to switch to Tone 6 on that box or on your King, it would transmit 156.7. This made things quite understandable when you traveled all over the state in your own rig and brought up a CDF local net or another forest's net or a BLM net that tone number matched the tone frequency in use. No one initially cared what the repeater that tone accessed was, as you just, for example, would enunciate "Angeles, INF Rec 21, Tone 3" because someone told you Tone 3 worked really well in XYZ canyon. You could go to a national park and do the same thing.
Now I met some radio techs from other regions outside of California who objected to being told they would have a standard set of tones that came from California and they would not use them. It was so bad that they didn't have the tones standardized between the BLM districts in Nevada. Let's say, for example, Tone 2 on the Vegas district was 127.3 and Tone 2 on the Winnemucca district was 88.5. Talk about stupid! Finally, and much longer than necessary, NIFC stepped in and standardized the tones for the NIFC system using the California standardization because it was the only widespread interagency standard in existence at the time. I've noticed some regions of the USFS are still not caught up to the change, but more are getting closer as time goes on.
I think the issue came to a head at Yarnell and finally changed some minds. Now, if we can get all the states to change to that standard now, it will improve things.
Freelancing at incidents is always an issue. I don't do wildland, but I am an operational COML at many multi-op period incidents and deal with these same issues. In my case, units show up and just start using random channels they find that they think are quiet, or "it's what we always use"...even though they are on the other end of the state and I've already got that channel assigned.
Wildland comms freelancing, to me, is much more critical given the conditions they operate in. It's unfortunate they abuse the ease of cloning the BK radios for their own devices.
Another COML agrees 200%
good and useful video idea, not only for firefighters.
In the description you link one or two videos? cos there are 2 listings with different titles but with the same link address.
Many years as a Hot Shot and Supt. Pretty good video with some valid points, except for your Yarnell Hill Fire comments and conclusions.
The YH Fire and GMHS debacle was NOT "totally investigated independently and within interagencies involved" as you claim. The USDA USFS funded the entire SAIT even though it was an AZ State Forestry wildlfire. The bogus "33 minute gap of no communication" was proven false many years ago. The GMHS regularly used their Crew Net with only 2-3 supervisors "allowed" to scan or talk on Command, A/G, or TAC. And nobody but Crew Overhaed were allowed to reveal their location, intentions, or anything else about GMHS, from a fill-in PFD FF on the GMHS.
And where did you come up with this one? People were fired." Who was fired? From what Agencies or Departments?
The SAIT is worthless, with alleged "conclusions" established first and then alleged "facts" are found to support it.. How is it possible to do everything right (SAIT) "conclusion" and yet kill 19 WFs in one fell swoop? It's impossible!
Watch Out and stop drinking the YH Fire and GMHS debacle Kool-Aid. Go to the YHFR wensite at ( www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com )
That's a fine watch your wearing there brother!
thats part of the 18 watchout situtions
Maybe I missed it or didn't see it, but did they have different frequencies on their crew channel(s) than what would have been there for CH16/20? If it was just mislabeled, that would be annoying for those listening for an emergency call, but at least they still had the proper frequency. And, the main reason for the 205 is so everyone is using the same channels. I'm not surprised they didn't follow the 205, but that is why it is there! It looks like their COMT needs some more radio training too. Our PD radios are programmed the same way, in reference to the emergency channel (We call it RED channel). Every patrol car has two radios in it. The second radio is set to the RED Channel and they can't turn it off or change the volume. When an officer turns that channel knob all the way to the right, their broadcast goes to every car in the region. That can be multiple neighboring agencies. Pursuits within our operational area are also called on that channel.
Yeah, they had their own crew channel there instead of the what supposed to be there. Thanks for watching.
Any advice on listening to a multi agency fire response? I'm trying to monitor the oxbow/mosquito ridge fire. I spent all day yesterday evacuating friends, I'd like to listen to air and ground for this incident. This is northern CA. Thanks.
Yes. Go to the Incident command post and pick up an IAP, (Incident Action Plan). Sometimes you can find an old one laying around. In that packet the ICS-220 form has the Air operaton summary with aircraft frequencies used, then the ICS-205 form has the incident Radio Comm plan. For now, I would think they are using the local unit command channels. Soon, probably in the next or few days, they will switch over to the Fed Portable repeater systems. either way the IAP changes every day but the same Command channels will remain till the end. each command channel are linked together, you hear one, you hear traffic from all, just tune into the one closes to you, but change to a different one if you lose it while traveling. Unfortunatlely, I'm not assigned to the Mosquio, I'm way up north on another fire. Be safe and thanks for your service.
@@GUERRILLACOMM Thank you, I got some stuff programmed last night. I'm too far away to hear the tac channels, might need to try a yagi. I'm 40miles directly. I'm also having trouble getting to the IAP, the road is very locked down because of the scumbag looters.
I'm trying all the command channels but I only get what sounds like Placer dispatch. I heard there is a staging area in Roseville, I need go go by and check.
For now there is a broadcastify feed, I was listening to dozer crews last night. But I'm unable to find that frequency, i did hear them mention tac 2 and tac 28.
@@GUERRILLACOMM I got the IAP via cdf ftp. I didn't know that was an option. It's such a great resource, but now I need to reprogram my radio!!
@@RP4886 Good deal...
I choose the last channel for emergency call. If all else fails.
Nice /
Air guard is only used for aircraft in distress! As an old shot the crew channel is stupid. And yes the crew channel does take away from pertinent information from tac and command. Nobody cares how many chains of line or if it's time for a water break.
Air Guard is not only for aircraft in distress, it is for anyone in distress. That change was made somewhere prior to the Yarnell Hill Fire. I don't recall the year it was designated what could be called "the Mayday channel," if that term make sense. The crew channels have been assigned from 4 federal agency commons or itinerant frequencies to be used for crew logistics. While it is true that tactical comms are not to be carried out on these frequencies, more essential traffic might be found on them. Each hotshot crew has been assigned a channel and a tone guard. Let's say someone has taken a run back to the crew buggies to get some Siggs filled with gas and a chain breaks since the person left. What if no one is carrying the parts to repair that chain? That crewmember sent should be monitoring or scanning the crew channel and could be contacted to bring up a chain. You wouldn't want that traffic on a tactical channel as it might be quite busy with the normal tac traffic on a division so the crew channel makes sense. Having one saw down affects line building rates so it's more important than announcing it's time for a water break. That type of traffic used to be carried on tac channels, tying them up unnecessarily.
Several problems with your rant on the freqs. For starters having a crew freq for IHC's is vital for those crews to be able to operate the way they do and be as versatile as they are (which is the whole reason for having IHC's). Without intercrew comms that are not being smothered by a chaotic division command an IHC will not be able to multitask or help itself out of problems. Next, airguard is not for crew emergencies, airguard is a frequency designated for aircraft emergencies. In my years of working as a hotshot we never overrode the airguard channel, but we generally had our crew freq set around the incident comm plan. Also, hotshot's comm plans have nothing to do with the Yarnell Hill fire. Having read the after action report I can tell you that the crews programming of their radios did not hinder their communications.
I just showed two incidents of different IHC over writing the air guard channel. other crews dont, as I see most of their radios for repair and check, it could be a matter of individual crew training issue. I'm not complaining about them having their crew freqs just them over writing them on potential life saving freqs. The way fireline safety is taught, they always talk about the airguard being used for all air/ground emergencies like being over run. the comm plans designate that as such and the classes are being taught by ICS red card carrying safety officers spelling that out.. No rant here, just a friendly reminder to those whoe might not take it too seriously to pay attention to what they are doing if they plug in their freqs on the wrong spot.
airguard is notfor being overrun. airguard is for aircraft in distress.
Not my pay grade to argue any of this, just looking out.
From the National Interagency Incident Communications Division manual chapter 15.
26 This frequency, 168.6250 MHz is restricted to the following use:
27 • Air-to-air emergency contact and coordination;
28 • Ground-to-air emergency contact; and
29 • Initial call, recall, and re-direction of aircraft when no other contact
30 frequency is available.
Ground to air emergencies is a wide interpretation, it didn't specify aircraft in distress. The airwing component probably have their own protocol for handling that scenario. Why do you think the last channel on the knob is designed to stop when you swing it fully clockwise? Why not another channel for line emergencies not pigeon holed for a single use like aircraft distress?
Not to beat a dead horse anymore than I have to,
www.nifc.gov/NIICD/docs/NIRSCBasicRadioOperationTraining_slideshow.pptx
From the horses mouth who set policy and regulates your Comm plans.