Part One of Rav Aharon Schechter on Rabbi Slifkin and creation
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- Rav Aharon Schechter of Yeshivah Chaim Berlin was invited to Bnei Yeshurun in Teaneck on March 5th, 2006, along with Rav Aharon Feldman and Rav Mattisyahu Solomon. Here is an extract concerning a question he was asked in light of the ban on Rabbi Slifkin's books (www.zootorah.com/controversy)
The 79 preceding commenters I imagine each is drastically more informed than I am. Of those choosing to comment on the Rabbi's enthusiastic openness and generosity of spirit by relabeling that as 'yelling' and 'screaming' to 'hid that he doesn't have an argument'. That's not how I see him. I see him as a source to the Source. Those especially who grew up in an Anglo-fied culture such as the USA, Canada, UK, Australia/NZ.... Rabbi Schechter is full of expressively liveliness and wit and insight and an actual profound ability and talent to communicate, even to act. Would that our coming members, rabbis or otherwise would embody the knowledge and care and concern that Rabbi Schechter demonstrates or exudes then we would have a bright and amazing future. Learn to admire what he DOES have and don't conflate your own loss of our real cultural expression with your limited perception.
How many people who disagree with the premises made by Rabbi Slifkin have even read his book?
a Jew who believes we evolved from the monkeys and that Judaism must conform to science is a rasha apikores, period
That's not what he's saying.
The Midrash says: "And (G-d) completed the Heaven and the Earth and all of their hosts" (Gen 1:32) Rabbi Levi said "From the beginning of (Genesis) until here, 'the honor of G-d is to conceal a matter' (haster davar - הסתר דבר); from here on, 'the honor of kings is to investigate a matter' (חקור דבר)
These 31 verses are in the hidden realm of Torah, and as such will not be well understood. You can't contradict something that was never understood in the first place.
i think he gave a very fair response. Jews accept the Torah based upon its giving at Mt. Sinai to approximately 3 million jews. Judasim is unique in that we can base our beliefs on that tradition. This rabbi is arguing that we have a mission to follow that belief. There is no point in wasting time on science which will still be searching for completeness for hundreds of years. Why should we spend time on evershifting science, just to bolster our pseudo intellectual egos.
amazing
Slifkin is an apikoros
I am not sure what Rav Schachter meant exactly because he seems to answer within the context of a book I have not read, nevertheless it seems to me that Thora and science fly on two different planes: science is a rational discourse about measurable and quantifiable events that aims at explaining HOW they occur, and certainly not WHY they occur (which is beyond the scope of science). Thora is not a rational discourse but the belief in a specific axiology, that is the emunah in the values as they
look up rabbi joel david bakst - who shows the unity
I am not familiar with Rabbi Slifkin or his books, so I cannot comment on them. However, I have to give him credit for posting a video of the Rosh Yeshiva's speech which was (apparently, per comments made) critical of his ideas.
Thora is not a rational discourse but a specific axiology that is the emunah in the values as they are organised by written and oral Thora. No contradiction, no stira between a discourse on values on one side and scientific theories/models on the other simply because they answer two uncorrelated questions.
In essence: Torah is about values. It is not rational and requires emunah. Science is about explaining natural events in a rational way. Science is irrelevant to Thora values, or competing values, and vice versa. Rav Schachter is saying: Jews' assignment is to learn and put into practice Torah values, veduk...
He avoids the questions. By screaming 😱
Wise words are spoken calmly! That Shlomo Hamelechs words.
Argument weak....shout!
For those commenting on his yelling: I just want to point out if you walk into any beis medrash you will find a roomful of men constantly jumping form their seats and yelling at each other in discussion. There's something mostly cultural about the way yeshiva guys approach learning and it's very lively and argumentative.
What you guys are perceiving as poor tactic I would say is mainly a cultural difference.
That being said, as an orthodox jew and dedicated one at that, I do have some issues with Rav Shachter's approach and especially his denial of our right to be Michadesh in Torah.
This is a panel not a bais medrash
dude he's angry as he senses kefira/heresy and a slippery slope. And generally speaking the less literal the man, the less religious the man!
@@Bulvan123 &?
You scream when you need to get a fundamental message across, in the Torah it says “and Moshe got angry/upset” anger has its place, the Daas is what directs the middos and if something is Good your Daas understand it as Good so you love it.
Chazal say having a little bit of ego is required etc
What is the Mashal?
A parent who screams at a child to set them in place, a parent who never screamed at the child, the child is bound to error against their own good. The parent is angry but it’s directed it’s purposeful and not out of line with Daas Hashem.
But those who want to make fun will make fun. I’m only writing here to explain to others who need a rational answer to respond to mockery of others
The Rosh Yeshiva is correct. I have no issue with Rav Slifkin’s book. But I do believe the Maasai Merkavah and The Briah (creation) is not limited to Sefer HaYatzirah, or Sefer Habachir, but that one should not try to understand or delve into Sefer Breishis, or the first Perek of Yechezkel. I believe strongly that science and math work more strongly for Toreh than against it. If you ask any astronomer and Mathematician statistically how haas the world not been obliterated by Solar flairs or Asteroids it’s a daily miracle.
If you understand high tide, and the moons rotation around the earth, and it’s essential role in creation, then Kiddush Levanah, doesn’t look like AVODAH ZARAH.
So their are basic areas of science one should be familiar with. Does one need to reconcile Breishis and evolution? I don’t know depends on the audience. But archeological findings from the Middle East some that match Tanach some that conflict…that’s also a matter of linguistics and reverse engineering languages which I simply don’t comprehend. E.g. without a tradition I don’t know how they translate Beowulf it’s beyond my pay grade.
However the Merkavah, the Gemara in Chagigah is a warning, not to become overly occupied with the “spiritual realm”. HaRav Soloveitchik said in public many times “When I am pre-occupied with Torah, Im never alone, Rashi is there, and the Rambam and Rif, and Rashbah etc…”
If you put your mind into the basics and don’t take them for granted that’s all you need…The ways of the Cosmos, Tzadik V’Ra Lo….these aren’t issues that will make one stronger unless they’re impeding that person.
As much as one tries to put it into words, we can’t comprehend because our entire existence is limited to time, space, and matter. It’s even defined by how we utilize that time. If one is confronted with Scientific Theory running contrary to the account provided and their Bitachon is shook, then they have as much bitachon in Darwinian Theory and the Big Bang, because that can’t be proven and it’s called “THEORY”
One involved in academia can even see problems in physics, where computations and formulas fed to a Super Computer, present the “Theoretical Physics” e.g. Black matter, Blackholes, multiple galaxies, is being grouped with “Concrete Physics” laws of thermodynamics, relativity and gravity…Theory is being miscommunicated to the general public as Truth when it is hypothesis.
But you can’t stand strong in Emunah by saying Carbon Dating is Falshe, unless you understand the process what’s provided as absolute, in a best case scenario it is 50,0000 years plus or minus 5 thousand with 85% certainty…and you need to know does C14 deteriorate at a constant rate in relation to C12…then you can approach the questions intelligently if you care to.
The better question would have been more direct…Regarding a woman needing to wait three months once she is widowed or divorced…or regarding the Chumras adopted for “Zivah”.
The reality is we’ve accepted this as Halacha, and their are laws we understand, laws we don’t and laws we try. Because there is a machlokes in a Mishna, if it can’t be resolved through exegesis the “Logical” argument may ensue.
So there are many sugyas NOT MISHNAYOS, that talk about Safeik 7 month old born infant, Safeik 9 carried to term… you don’t have to go to medical school to know, that today there is no such Safeik, there is no absolute 8 month miscarriages. True but that’s the information the Chachamim had in terms of human physiology, and from Hippocrates to Galen things they’ve documented as Medicine was limited for multiple reasons and very much so till the 1700s.
But that’s getting into “Kephirah” territory when it’s not! If anything I can understand why the RAMBAM doesn’t dispute all of these Gemaras because medicine did not start leaping forward till Industrialization. So what was presented to the world as fact was limited!
I have a better appreciation of the machlokes in logic, based on the worldly knowledge available at the time. The blood of a Virgin/Besulah tremendous questions with modern biology… but it’s rare you’ll find something conflicting in modern science by science I mean empirically shown and proven.
In the context of the Gemara I can appreciate those machlokes when I know that the assumptions came from somewhere that clearly was not the Ribono Shel Olam, and maybe with such knowledge the Halacha would be different? Absolutely not! The Mishna say, from Kiddushin, from Nisuim, from Divorce, to widowhood, from a woman we know has given birth, to a woman who can no longer give birth….before any remarriage she has to wait three months.
The Gemara wants to understand why…and based on the knowledge available regrading human gestation they explain…but from the Mishna itself it’s clear no such explanation is warranted. To hypothesize that a Naarah Besulah who is an almanah has to wait three months not to get confused with a non virgin, is a Sevarah..a theory.
But to hear shiurim , in the time of the Gemara this is how it happened is Am Haaratzus….
the point of the Rav is that slifkin is too speculative and is reaching for too much, looking into these areas of science.
i'm Orthodox and i Agree with you! Habad is Kosher
I enjoyed "Challenge of Creation." I disagree with some parts, while agreeing with others. My favorite parts are when he describes the fossils and geological layers very methodically and logically. I think that it is a valuable scientific resource and a must-read.
I am always suspicious of attempts to ban a book.
You should add that Rabbi Slifkin wrote Challenge of creation
I assume this comment was sarcastic. Because if it isn't, I truly feel bad for you.
"Know how to answer an atheist."
Try this anecdote:
An atheist was seated next to a little boy on an airplane and he turned to himand said, "Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger."
The little boy, who had just started to read hisbook, replied to the total stranger, "What would you want to talk about?"
Oh, I don't know," said the atheist.
"How about why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?" as he smiled smugly.
"OK," he said. "Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff-grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?"
The atheist, visibly surprised by the little boy's intelligence, thinks about it and says, "Hmmm, I have no idea at all."
To which the little boy replies,
"Do you really feel qualified to discuss God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don't know cr-p?”
And then he went back to reading his book.
Overly simplistic and childish. You will go nowhere with that argument, nor will you be respected. If you want to discuss God with an agnostic or atheist, actually try using a little science. Not childish jokes.
+West Is Best most (atheist) children know about animal life and human life including religious beliefs in God/s and other supernatural philosophy
I think the Rav Made it clear that only in fundamentalist religion are critical thinking off limits
Are you suggesting that theists know more about crap?
Hit you right in your ego.... simplistic yes, but very true.
@GorterPoss noah's ark is far fethched? archaeologists today have been saying that found parts of the ark. they say also that they found drawing of the ark on walls inside caves. the ark was on the mt. ararat, as the Torah calls it. serpents having legs? they say that serpents had legs and pelvic bones. the only reason these people get turned off by these things is bec. they learn it on their own instead of from a teacher. and slifkin only makes this worse bec. they don't understand him either.
Don't raise your voice, improve your argument."
Joseph Dana there’s nothing wrong w his argument or his frustration, these Ravs forgot things the other rav haven’t even learned yet
His idea is still valid. Don't buy a book that might mess up your life when you have nothing to gain from it. (On the other hand, if you already know the science and have a problem, read the book, why not? He's talking to people like himself who know what they know (torah) and know what they don't know (science and kabbalah). I'm not saying what is the truth, just what the various positions are.
Wise words are spoken calmly! That Shlomo Hamelechs words.
@GorterPoss He happens to be highly educated.
pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
Oh ok. I've heard many people say the same thing... except they're totally serious.
i wish for better audio or transcript
I don't know what natan slifkin wrote.
But just curious if a 12 century sage would have written the same thing & put it in a book called guide to the perplexed would Rav schachter be like this?
Sometimes I find it's ok if someone in antiquity said or wrote something it gets excepted, but today 👉you young man over there have no right to have your own ideas & thoughts to say such & such.
Is this not something like Taliban, or the people running Iran or similar 🤷♂️?
Unless one is super aged with a long white beard you can't possibly be knowledgeable enough to come up with something interesting 🤷♂️?
Anyone heard of the frase שבעים פנים לתורה?
Btw having said all that rabbi schachter is not wrong. But where he says at 7:07 that we are not entitled to write anymore new chidushim on the toira ? People have been mechadesh chidushim on the toira for centuries & people are still writing. So can you or can't you?
I'm confused.
@yainkee re "At 7:41, "Some fellow comes... (Rabbi Slifkin)... (as opposed to rabbi)!" Clearly a indictment on a person" At 8:25, "you're an upstart, you're a chatzuf." ... 8:31 he says, "I'm not talking to anyone, I'm talking to the idea." Not true..." So, in your book, the word "fellow" is derogatory?? And a clear statement "I'm not talking to anyone, i'm talk to the idea" means he is making a personal attack?? You can't invent something that he didn't say and then complain about it.
Anyone notice his blatant contradiction between 7:41 and 8:30?
Not sure why slifkin would upload this unless he failed to understand again I feel for the guy because he's smart but only in his niche He lacks the analytical skills to comprehend nuanced deep ideas and never understands the final conclusions of his "rationalist" arguments Reminds me a bit of Lawrence krauss
Isac that's rediculous plenty of big rabbis over the centuries said many things that no fruma care about
@GorterPoss other than the fact that everything you have mentioned is believable with or without modern science, if one doubts the pshat based on a lack of scientific evidence, so then what abt sticking to pshat that's difficult to understand but not "dependent" on our research to qualify? why not stick to those areas first and then graduate to the next level? laziness? intellectual speculation? btw, you're from cleveland?
It is very scary that we jews look up to these types of rabbis.
G-d says to Moshe, prior to the revelation of Sinai, 'and I have borne you here on the wings of an eagle.
Where was the eagle? Clearly this is a metaphorical statement.
So is an 'Eye for an eye'. Right?
Did a donkey talk to Bilaam? Ibn Ezra says donkeys don't talk. An angel stood by and pretended to speak for the donkey.
I remember his Tishes in the basement in the dark. All Yidish but as strong as he is here. Unfortunately that is not him these days
🔥🔥🔥
@yainkee What contradiction?
with all due respect, it's much older than that - see the video from rabbi aryeh kaplan, who touches on the subject - Kabbalah is considered a part of Torah, as much as the 5 books of moses, 24 books of Tanach (Jewish Bible), and the Talmud and Midrash. When compared against the backdrop of Jewish history, which goes back over 3000 years, the 11th century is recent history! Not sure to what you refer in the 11th century, but the best it can be is a highlight of its study, not its invention.
so why is he screaming? doesnt he have confidence in the actual content of his words? he even pounds the table more than once, with such anger. can't a person ask a question without getting such an angry response?
You do not know him. He is as educated as any Harvard graduate, Le Havdil.
The way he talks is his style. He is the Rosh Yeshiva. We had and have outmost Respect and FEAR of him. He was not a friend and shouldn't be. He was like a King to us, at least for me.
well with all that screaming, it is no wonder that all of you were so afraid of him
You seem to have gotten your education from the culture in comments on youtube. If somebody shouts it doesn't mean they have a weak argument.
boliusaBol got his education from the culture in comments on youTube. if somebody shouts, it means they have a weak argument
@@moseszarnighian4204 Sounds a lot like a cult to me.
the point is not weather Rav Shachter raises his voice in order to be right. Once we have determind that he is a Gadol Biyesreal . Then we listen to him and to his rebuke on this non sence of slifkin
who appointed him as a gadol lol
Isaac Kahan - what nonsense did he write?
He's not my Gadol .
@dwolpaw What If that used car salesman is GOD ALMIGHTY himself? You would be pretty stupid to walk away!!!!
narrow minded
@1w5w9 At 7:41, "Some fellow comes along (Rabbi Slifkin), and I say fellow because I mean to use the word fellow (as opposed to rabbi)!" Clearly a indictment on a person. At 8:25, "you're an upstart, you're a chatzuf." Then right afterwards at 8:31 he says, "I'm not talking to anyone, I'm talking to the idea." Not true. He just spent 50 seconds ripping on Rabbi Slifkin with moronic arguments and then tried to cover himself by saying that he's not talking to the person but to the idea.
+yainikee dude he means anybody with the idea, doesn't have to be slifkin, could be anybody.
Enjoy hell!talking about a buffoon and a rasha is not moronic.talking about a tzaddik like Rabbi schecter the way you did was not a good idea
So what does this have to do with Zoo Torah ? Oh I see he is a Chaya!
I read R. Slifkin's book and I failed to find anything offensive or even vaguely heretical. BTW- I'm not Jewish (or not yet anyway)
Essentially, he's saying scripture says that any area of scientific inquiry that would lead to information that contradicts scripture, you should stay away from. It's just plain silly on face. If a used car salesman said, "Don't listen to anyone who disagrees with me." you'd walk right out of the dealer.
Boooooo!!!!
The flabbergasting ignorance shown by whomever wrote the closed comments is devastatingly overshadowed by the incredible ignorance, rigidity ("I refuse to think about it") and stupidity of this "gadol hador." God help us if this ignoramapus illustrates the wisdom of our era.
Even though, I became Christian and also lost my respect for Rabbi Aharon Schechter, I still think he is funny....But Jesus is the way
Where is the evidence for that claim...
The way to what ? A good gardener מט קרולפסק
מט
רפואה שלמה 👋