Liminality - the Real Root of Nihilism
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ค. 2024
- Is Liminality the real root of the crisis of Nihilism? In this episode we are going to explore this question and whether Liminality is a better diagnosis of the Meaning Crisis than Nietzsche's Death of God. When looking at Turner's qualities of Liminality the relations between it and Nihilism are striking; if nothing else if provides us an alternative angle on the crisis - a different perspective from which to behold the quagmire we find ourselves in. What is particularly appealing about the Liminality-centred explanation is that it can explain Nihilism AND the value system of the Left from Marx to Social Justice - a theme we'll be exploring in a future video.
____________________
📚 Further Reading:
- Nietzsche FW and Kaufmann WA (1974) _The Gay Science: With a Prelude in Rhymes and an Appendix of Songs_. 1st ed. New York: Vintage Books.
- Turner VW (1995) _The Ritual Process: Structure and Anti-Structure_. The Lewis Henry Morgan lectures 1966. New York: Aldine de Gruyter.
________________
⭐ Support the channel (thank you!)
▶ Patreon: / thelivingphilosophy
▶ Ko-fi: ko-fi.com/thelivingphilosophy
_________________
💬 More from The Living Philosophy
▶ Discord / discord
▶ 📨 Subscribe with email: thelivingphilosophy.substack....
________________
🎼 Media Used:
1. Dreams Become Real - Kevin MacLeod
2. Fresh Air - Kevin MacLeod
3. Long Note Three - Kevin MacLeod
4. Despair and Triumph - Kevin MacLeod
5. Lost Frontier - Kevin MacLeod
6. End of the Era - Kevin MacLeod
Subscribe to Kevin MacLeod: / kmmusic
_________________
⌛ Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
02:38 What is Liminality?
05:36 Nihilism
09:28 Liminality and Nihilism
12:55 Progressivism and the Dangers of Liminality
14:34 Curing the Meaning Crisis
having a worldiview pushed on oneself feels terrible, being in agreement with the times is paradise, im really a man of the times, and i must say i enjoy it alot more then i would have the previous 'religious' ages. thank god i was born in this age
I live in a country in which nihilism and religion are strongly bound together. Religion here is a habit: people don't think about the values of their beliefs; instead, what they really care about is how that system of beliefs will make their lives better (normally prosperity or when a familiar is face to face with death in a hospital bed). Here, religion is a habit of retribution, not genuine faith. Religion is a tool for mundane gratification and political manipulation. From my perspective, I don't know about Europe and America, people have the tendency to be what Nietzsche wrote in Thus Spoke Zarathustra: The Last Man, passive nihilist who seek only comfort and routine (in this case religion routine), not caring about what values they hold.
I think there is a root of that in most religions. A question I've put to people in the past was if their god neither helped nor punished them. If their fate was the same no matter how they acted towards their deity -- would they still do the things they do? The answer I've received most often is 'well then he wouldn't be god.' There is a transactional relationship with the divine for them, and that seems to be the only terms they understand their religion on.
@@grigorigahan
What to do you mean? No paradise, salvation or redemption & no Hell? Well what would be the point if God is just going to be passive on the sidelines & not care about what we do? Yeah there is always going to be some sort of morality no matter what but nobody would act exactly the same if God was passive people these days at least in America have this dumb idea that God will always love them unconditionally (probably because of the high divorce rates & lack of a father figure) but we can see what this does no people will not act the same in fact this belief is even worse, a cruel God is better.
@@JackSmith-xx5mi I mean something like that. A God that listens to your prayers and comforts you, but will neither reward nor punish you. Course I could also mean a true deistic god too, one that is utterly indifferent to you. People's relationship with a god is entirely transactional -- what they think a god will do for them, or fear of what a god could do to them. Imagine if you will a god that manifests itself as something like the night sky. Man looks up at this 'god' and feels wonder and awe at the existence of this god -- perhaps even speaks to it knowing that it can hear you. But you can stand in awe of the night sky all night long (a god in this case) and know that that god will do nothing for or against you. Is the awe and wonder at this god any diminished because he's not personally interested in your little struggles? Course virtually nobody worships a god like this -- and that's my point. The very foundation of people's belief is little more than vain hope that some bigger, badder entity out there will deign you worthy for reward -- or at least the avoidance of punishment.
@@grigorigahan
Naa I'll disagree with you a true Christian is supposed to love Christ which isn't a mere transactional relationship I'd argue that some Christians would feel so bad about their deeds that they'd rather go to Hell because they felt they hurt (emotionally) or disappointed him (although all Christians should keep in the back of their minds original sin & that he doesn't deserve paradise to begin)
Which no church I'd assume would say you should go to Hell rather than repent but sometimes the passions aren't rational.
Silliness 😮
Thank goodness for your channel 🙏🏽
What great observation and narration! Thank you,.
It would be nice to analyze this from a perspective of ex communist/socialist countries where, after a decade or two of chaos, religion is starting to reemerge, somewhat in different apperance.
I'm from an ex-commie country and there is in-fighting here psychologically speaking between atheists and theists. Especially because people are misusing religion to further their own gains, and atheists pile up every theist into the same camp as the ones who misuse religion. It reemerges because it was "fake" under communist, spy priests and shit, now it's being let out properly, but yeah it's chaos here as well, but not as big as in the west
Really? Where? Which religions?
@@albertmiller3082Former Soviet Union, Christianity and Islam
@@MarshallTheArtist The evidence of authentic devotional practice is scant. The politicization of faith is the turbo-charger for apparent “religious” activity.
To the extent the Muslim culture is at odds with Judaic and Christian culture, that disparity is measured in hostile activity back and forth.
The teachings forming the basis for these Abrahamic traditions is not a legitimate source of the apparent ongoing ill will.
If anything, the different traditions are seized upon by political operatives whose aim is to persuade faithful citizens to fall in line politically.
There is no equal force from truly devout circles to penetrate and repurpose the already bristling militaries. The impetus is secular all the way around, not an impassioned expression of devout sincerity.
@@albertmiller3082 ex Yugoslavia
Tight video man 🤟🏻
Jung's work and the archetypes go well beyond such dualistic views, liminality being a well known sign of the trickster archetype active in the collective unconscious and a sign of collapse and rebirth. Periods marked by widespread unconsciousness and, as you say, meaninglessness - ours has long been labelled the age of narcissism. Jung also gave us the context and the tools required to be able to adapt to large scale change and become more conscious and the more who do the work the less destructive this period will be.
"Seems to me our best chance to be spared a collective catastrophe resides in the possibility that enough people will have individual conscious encounters with the greater personality, and thereby will contribute to the process of immunizing the body social against a mass atheistic inflation. If each individual can work towards that end by diligently assimilating his projections and seeking his own unique individual encounter, then he will contribute to that immunizing process. To the extent that it can take place in the arena of the individual psyche it will not have to take place in that dreadful arena of the collective psyche." - Edward Edinger, Encounters With the Greater Personality
The widespread alienation and hostility manifested among the left and so called wokism can be seen as a collective form of the drive we see among many individuals who, due to dissociations and suffering from being alienated from their own culture/themselves and aspects of their identity, take part in self destructive behavior. So the left here are a catalyst for the liminality and omen of the de-structuring period we're entering. They want to see that happen yet propose nothing in it's place - a Thanatos drive. The fragmented state of alienation and suffering returns to wholeness in death.
The Right are mass shooting hicks.
It's funny how you use the eerie background music to imbue your opinions with authority and gravitas.
I would say the fascist, religious fundamentalist, manic pro- consumer capitalist, pro-gun, conpsiracy driven, far right bigots are a much greater bane on mankind than any socialist hippie. Cmon man!
Bro thinks hes deep
@@Penultimate1785 Well he's 100% correct, why don't you contribute to the conversation further instead of insulting people?
Great art in this vid 🎉
Great analysis
I love this channel
Fr Seraphim Rose nailed this in Nihilism the Root of Revolution in the Modern Age. It’s in audio on here and on archive if you can’t afford from St. Herman’s Press.
Thank you
Thanks!
Thank U!!! Your best Gig cos I could feel your poetry & soul in the Presentation. Alan Watts told me that Philosophie was earlier called Natural science!?! And isn't a Extension of Magic with a understanding of the eternal flow...
Updated...
Its not an either / or. Its not swimming upstream or going with the flow. There is a 3rd option, proposed by Santayana
As the collective as a whole, people should look within and become who they are meant to be. Carl Jung saw this when discussing the unconscious and the shadow self.
Thank you for another excellent episode; it was enlightening. ❤🌹
The leftist see the collective as humanity but by that they only mean to free every "individual" from all responsibilities, restrains & restrictions moral, familial, national, racial, tribal, cultural, economical & spiritual the whole of leftism even when so-called collectivist is still individualistic.
A true collectivist sees himself as a member of a family, a nation, a race, a tribe & if a Christian a member of the Church. This individualism vs collectivism is the worse made up dichotomy.
I agree. And the idea of the tao is somewhat similar to traditional religion. If you, take the numbers from Plato’s, sacred geometry or platonic form. And put them in the philosophy of the Tao Te Ching (it’s the same philosophy) It will sound something like this.
The numbers that are, are not the numbers. The numbers that can be spoken are not the eternal numbers.
It’s really the same idea.
“For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity.”- the King James Bible, 1610
Exactly! However, most need a guide through the inner recesses of the mind, lest they get stranded and slip into the abyss (as Nietzsche did).
In terms of exploring ones psychodynamics and personal unconscious, AEDP is the route that aided me and allowed me to get in contact with the logos and the archetypes.
@@MrCman321 What is AEDP, if you don't mind me asking?
@@NegativSpace-pd6cz Yeah no worries. AEDP stands for Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy. It's a form of psychotherapy that is the culmination and integration of many modalities. It's maximally effective and works at the deepest levels of our being.
I specify this because (as a psychologist) many colleagues do more or less surface level behavioural interventions and CBT which are, in my opinion, not the kinds of interventions that will lead to lasting, profound change.
I like your channel. You do your homework. And always have nice artwork to accompany your meditations. Liminality could be seen as a source of nihilism. Order vs. Chaos are existential realities we have to deal with. But not just order or chaos in general but rather the order that is acceptable and the chaos that is acceptable as opposed to the unacceptable. Here I’m thinking of Ivan Karamazov’s nihilism as our encounter with too much unacceptable suffering. I think that is the real source of pessimism & nihilism. Things like order, chaos, epistemological nihilism, moral nihilism, the nihilism of Nothingness and Death, etc. - all these things wouldn’t have nearly as much purchase if we didn’t experience so much unacceptable suffering in our lives. This is the idea of theodicy vs nihilism. Not just theodicy in the theistic sense but more broadly construed as the search for meaning in all our suffering. Either there is acceptable meaning to our sufferings or we reject all possible theodicies. Initiated by Pascal, Leibniz, Voltaire, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard - all the usual suspects and others - but above all by Dostoevsky. I go on at all too great length about this in my essay on Integral World www.integralworld.net/mcelroy2.html
Interesting stuff Mike. I've been skirting the edges of something like this in my thought recently in looking at populism. I can't help but feel that there's this contrast between what you call the acceptable and unacceptable sides of order and chaos that is key to understanding the culture wars element. Be curious to see what you wrote and exciting knowing it's coming through an integral lens
Yes there is the order we like (find acceptable) as when we are playing a game and then there is the order we don't like (find unacceptable) like living under a bad regime. But then there is the chaos we don't like (find unacceptable) eg. the current outbreak of war in the MidEast and the chaos we do like (find acceptable) like The Marx Brothers. Keep up the good work!!
I'm more inclind to think that liminality is a symptom rather than a cause of the distress the modern world is in, whether that can rightly be called nihilism or not.
If we were really nihilistic in the liteal sense of the term, we would be content. Nihilism is, in practice, trying to kick the world into the way you'd like it to be pricisely because you think it means something at root, like trying to get a child to behave well by saying their rebellious attitude is, "Not like them."
Individualist self actualizing camp please. To me that’s the way forward, but I think this is also inspired by some philosophy from Adam Smith and economics in general. I don’t see a lot of great value structure coming from the left leaning or communist camps.
Grazie.
What of the liminal, subliminal, and supraliminal respectively?
You make the very best videos on the topics of philosophy ❤😊
Where are the feasts we were promised? Where is the wine, the
new wine, dying on the vine.
Jim Morrison
"Where is life most animated and creative?" Not in Indiana, I'll tell you that much...
In the coming age of change, the only antidote would be the flowing together with the river of progress/evolution. Many will be the turbulences in the river and in many paths it will lead. In our quest to be able to swim in the newfound river of change, one does not need to turn into a fish in order to be able to swim. Retaining his base nature, one also holds into his ability to walk on the earth as well.
Hello, you stated you had a video on liminality and inferiority. I can’t find it. Can you please link me.
Sure here you go: th-cam.com/video/SCUfWk5n96s/w-d-xo.html
Liminality is a cyclical view of the history of meaning which has not been argued for. An alternative view is Girard's in which Christianity holds a unique place in the zoo of religions. The death of Christianity does not signal the beginning of something new, like Nietzsche's Zarathustra, but rather a Girardian Battle to the End.
@@michaelmcclure3383 Only in Christianity do we have the realization that the scapegoat is innocent. This makes it unique in that it shifts the guilt back to the community and creates a new consciousness: that scapegoating is a lie. Whether you are Christian or not, the whole world is now skeptical of this mechanism because of Christianity and we can no longer make use of it for cathartic release of pent up scandal. If we do not find new modes of establishing social peace, waves of revenge will precipitate as we battle to the end. We have seen this in the last century and its ugly head is poking up again.
The point of my critique is that history is not cyclical because once a new consciousness is present, it is difficult to forget. This is why Nietzsche, who wanted to return to pre-Christian sensibilities wrote "blessed are the forgetful." Turner's liminality correctly highlights the descent of communities into non-differentiation followed by the establishment of new social orders, but does not notice that something survives through all such cycles, namely why these cycles occur. It is this growth in consciousness which mark a linear history --- in fact consciousness of liminality is itself such a surviving awareness, but incomplete. Girard's is yet an improvement. This heightening awareness is the fate of the West, despite cycles.
@@michaelmcclure3383 Traditional Christianity is non-dualistic. Look into Orthodox Christianity if you want to learn more.
nice
Why is fascism included with the options for digging into the ground to find liminality? (Along with jungian psychology, plant medicine and spirituality)?
Keep in mind that this is what many "woke" folk do. Confused, they want to go back to their traditional cultures and that is impossible because those cultures have changed also. The Enlightenment may lead to another era, but its effects and gifts can't be denied, even for the woke folk who benefit from it.
Can you talk about Popper and his Open Society and how it informs many of the movements we see today. Many movements by opressed people seem to be funded by Soros' Open Society fund and he likes to think of himself as a philosopher more than a trader.
I remember reading an article on Tablet about Popper's Open Society, Bergon's Closed Society and connecting them to Leo Strauss's lecture "On German Nilihism "
I don’t know if you read the comments but check out Fr Seraphim Rose s Nihilism
I shall check it out!
"'Something is rotten in the state of Denmark' [...] it's a line that's particularly relevant today"
As a dane, i thought you were about to shit on the danish government (which would have been justified) xd
🤣
The answer is in John 1:18. "No man has seen God at any time"
The cycle goes like this.
1. Man sees that he does not see God.
2. Man seeks to see God.
3. Man finds a part of God.
4. Man mistakes that part for the whole of God.
5. Man notices that God is insufficient and declares him dead.
6. Man realizes it was only a part of God that died to make way for a larger more conplex part of God.
Then the cycle repeats back to 1.
Do not mistake our part in the cycle for some universal truth that we have "finally moved beyond God THIS time!"
Magic's not real, grow up.
Read & Study: St. Augustine, St. Thomas & Joseph de Maistre & you'll get the whole truth or least as many answers that you need.
@
Of course magic is real. But you're going to have to understand that "magic" is just the term we use for a result who's cause we cannot determine.
@@JackSmith-xx5mi What do they say that the bible does not already outline?
@@nomadinsox8757 Your imaginary friend is an emergent property of a malfunctioning mind.
Structure without liminality is bricks without mortar.
Hedonic utilitarianism, along with experimentation with different strategies, gives me a way to embrace nihilism and still have lots of reason to do things.
It's my own meaning of life.
Liminal, Edge, ad limina, at the foot of the throne.
Religion is and always has been the ways societies bind together in meaning. Religion needs renewal. All the "new" philosophies of the 20th century ended horribly. I'm beginning to see that societies cannot simply ditch their spiritual roots. You say this is going back to the old, but the old is always still present. History has it's tendrils into everything we say, think, and do. The New age religions, and Jungianism despite the theoretical claims of getting beyond duality, don't really address the meaning crisis, in part because there is nothing heavy enough to ground it. Traditions have been mocked for too long. And, most of the new stuff is just the old repackaged. Right now, everyone worships themselves. Psycedelics, and Jung, and look at all the shiny new things mentality doesn't lead people to surrender their egos in service to divine love. I love your videos, but I must say I disagree strongly with dismissing the "old" in favor of some theoretical new that will save us. We need to renew the old. Rescue the dead father, and revive the living waters.
ZYgmunt Bauman explained today's liminality as interregnum.
I love your content but your cadence is very "weather man on RTE in 1997"
🤣
Didn’t understand a thing
John Lennons song Imagine is often regarded as his finest, so much so as to become a kind of anthem for the modernists. In actual fact it is an ode to nihilism. Imagining a world without structure is in fact a nightmare scenario.
Nah, that's all false.
It's a song for communism. He admitted it.
No use sugarcoating it.
@@unknowninfinium4353That’s just as bad
@@NothingHereForYou Yup. Lennon was talented no doubt but all his political views were communism.
where is liminality in christianity?
PhilosophizeThis just covered this 2 weeks ago!
Which is better?
@ they both do good jobs! Philosophizethis takes time to compare it to today and gives modern comparisons. It’s longer form but still very digestible