🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🏃♂️ *Introduction to the comparison of max stack and low stack running shoes.* 00:39 📏 *Defining max stack (over 32mm foam) and low stack (under 25mm foam) shoes for 2024.* 01:31 📈 *Evolution of low stack shoe definition from under 20mm to under 25mm foam.* 01:45 🛠️ *Max stack shoes characterized by significant foam and a prominent forefoot rocker.* 02:25 🎢 *Max stack shoes often feature a heel-to-toe rocker for heel strikers.* 02:54 🪨 *Low stack shoes show traditional geometry with minimal rocker.* 03:50 👟 *Max stack shoes are suitable for runners needing more foot and lower leg protection.* 04:30 🌟 *Low stack shoes emphasize foot and ankle strength and mechanics.* 05:13 ⚖️ *Max stack shoes sacrifice stability due to higher foam platform.* 06:09 🏞️ *Low stack shoes offer enhanced stability and ground feel.* 07:01 🏃♀️ *Max stack shoes provide a smooth ride, especially on easy runs.* 07:31 🚀 *Low stack shoes are more adaptable to various running paces.* 08:38 💭 *Consideration of personal biomechanics and injury history when choosing shoes.* 09:19 🚑 *Max stack shoes may shift impact forces to knees and hips.* 10:02 🔄 *Importance of alternating between max stack and low stack shoes for varied training stimuli.* Made with HARPA AI
Taken from the book Running science, Owen Anderson, PhD. "The scientific research on running shoes and orthotics shatters many myths and is very liberating to runners. It is important for runners to know that specific running shoes don’t really provide superior cushioning, stability, motion control, or protection from injury compared with using other types of running shoes, and especially compared with running barefoot. Soft shoes don’t cushion the feet and legs better than hard shoes, nor do more expensive shoes ensure greater defense against injury and higher performance-in fact, perhaps the opposite. The life expectancy of a pair of running shoes is probably longer than commonly believed, and no brand of running shoes is better than any other. As a result, runners can buy their shoes based on fit and moderate purchase price instead of feeling that they must go for pricey, high-tech, high-end footwear. In addition, runners can take a close look at doing at least some of their running barefoot, a practice that enhances economy, stride rate, and foot-strike pattern and seems to reduce the impact forces running up the legs."
I agree on incorporating some barefoot running and strength training into one’s running practice. The benefits are outstanding. I’ve talked a bit about my background with barefoot running on this channel. It’s a very important foundation.
@ryantinney DOR has covered this all in quite a bit of detail over the past year or so. The short of it is that much more research is needed on the new foams…
This was a masterclass. It helped explain why I have tend to have trouble with max stack shoes - less stability than low stack. But I get suckered by all that foam like the Asics Nimbus lol
It’s hard to resist the big chunky shoes sometimes… they are ok in moderation for most… but glad I can help to explain why one is better than the other given biomechanics. 🤙🏻
Your analysis applies even more to trail running shoes. It took me a while to realize I hate rockered trail shoes. You lose agility, they force a certain midfoot strike and they accelerate you on downhills forcing you to heel strike to brake. Much happier with lower drop, less rockered shoes like the Kigers an Kjerags.
Trail running currently has its own set of needs at the moment. Interestingly low stack options are still very valid on the trail. I love my Kjerag, Norda 001 and I do enjoy the Kiger 9 (though the upper doesn’t like my foot as much). Super foams, plates and massive rocker are a challenge for all but the perfect terrain.
I enjoy my boston 12s. They feel great on long runs. Smooth and propulsive, like i could go on forever.....But towards the end of 18 and 20 mile runs the hips start to feel weird and akward. I love running on the adios 8 the next day. I can feel the ground again and feels incredible in an intangible way..a reset shoe of sorts. Well done sir. Well done.
@@wolgerit depends on how heavy you are. I am 5ft7inch height and weight 75kilos. Boston 12 LSP foam feels soft and smooth out of the box, probably because I can compress the foam and rods more compared to a lighter weight runner. Just a bit more firmer than Invincible 3 ZoomX. Also depends on climate I think. I live in tropical weather, mostly 26deg to 33deg Celsius year round. I hear that Adidas LSP foam to be harder in colder weather but I have no experience on that.
It's a strange world when you hold up a Pegasus 40 and present it as a "low stack" shoe! Even spikes now like the Dragonflys aren't as low as they used to be and running even a track 10K in them and not hobbling off is nice! Those plus Adios 8, Takumi Sen 9, Streakfly of my current shoes probably feel "low" in relative terms to me but these days even ones like Vaporfly 1/2/3 don't feel as "high" as say an Invincible or Novablast mainly as I feel they are a lot easier to run in. Pegasus 40 I would probably just put in the middle. Not sure if it is my long narrow feet but these shoes with supposed rockers like the Novablast not sure I feel that much. Agree though when say trying to do say strides in shoes like Novablast or even trying to run a bit faster, I kind of feel the brakes are sort of on.
Remember the days when the Boston 9 at 21mm in the heel and 13mm in the forefoot felt “well cushioned”? Or the Peg Turbo at 28mm in the heel and 21mm in the forefoot felt “maximal”? It’s a different world now and the reality is “low stack” means something very different. If anything it’s a geometry difference for me now, modern rockered vs traditional.
@@SagasuRunning I think historically I have only considered having session day and not session day shoes. Now those “sleeker” ones like the Boston are called super trainers :)
Yes! The Boston 9 was the original “Super Trainer”. Next time I see one, I’m going to pick it up. They are still around here in Taipei… even at official Adidas stores on occasion. I don’t know why… but they randomly appear. I want to do a proper review on the shoe and remind people what the Adidas Boston SHOULD be.
@@SagasuRunningmy first was the Boston 2 and I had 2 versions of the Adios before what we now think of the Adios 1 (being the first Boost one). Certainly those earlier Adios would make even the Boston 9 seem "high stack"
@@TimGrose Agree. I remember switching from the Adios 3 to the Boston 8 for “daily” running… it felt like I had bottomless cushioning. Some of this is nostalgia for sure… but I do miss those shoes still… as much as I like many current shoes out there.
Brooks Launch 10 - 24mm in heel 14mm in forefoot - is a shoe I enjoy running in more than some foamier shoes. The feedback I get from it helps keep my form where it needs to be.
I didn’t know that shoe existed. It’s interesting… but why is it 8.3oz? I’ve recently become enamored with Brooks’s foams… I may have to try to find a pair of these. They sound like what I have been missing!
@@SagasuRunning That’s wonderful to know. I don’t own any Brooks running shoes. Would you recommend the Brooks Launch 10 or the Nike Winflo. I will have to check out the Ghost pair. I find Nike’s shoe size fit me better than ASICS and Hoka. Are Brooks sizing runs true to size? I have very small and narrow feet almost a size 5. I don’t need the extra toe room.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video, it was extremely informative as I was trying to decide if I wanted to get HS or LS for running my FIRST marathon. This video gave me the info I needed to make a decision. I currently have a new pair of Brooks Ghost Max as a gift from my son, and I just started training with them, but I personally find them massive. YES, they feel really nice and smooth, but I feel like I'm floating all over the place with them, and some times I feel like I'm running on air. Now for some people that may sound like that's what we want when running right? but no, I just decommissioned my Nike Flex Experience Run 10 after 900 Kms, and I really miss how I felt with them. I didn't know anything about stacks, but after seeing this video I know I went from low stack to high stack, and honestly I think I will order low stack shoes to run my first L.A. marathon, as I don't think I would be able to make it with the high stack ones. The only problem now is that I don't know which low stack shoes to order, but I'll continue researching. In the meantime THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video.
Some low stack shoes to take a look at would be; New Balance 880 v13 or the upcoming 14, New Balance Rebel v3, Adidas Adios 8, Puma Deviate Nitro 2 (not super lower stop but a lower stack plated shoe that may be a good marathon shoe for you)…. Hopefully those get you started. I’m glad this one was useful for you. 🤙🏻
Topo ST-5 is the only recent old school low stack shoe coming in at 15MM, anything lower gets you into the category of minimal shoes(sub-10mm) with Xero and Vivobarefoot
More of a zero drop wide toebox barefoot’esque shoe… like Altra Escalante of old. If I want I shoe like this I’ll just go full minimal/barefoot shoe. It is interesting to see Topo fill all these super niche areas though. The Saucony Sinister really is the most old school flat out there. In fit and drop. The Brooks Launch as well.
The new 880 looks interesting. Lower stack. Single density midsole. Mild bevel without much rocker. The Pegasus looks like it has more toe spring than a rocker.
I haven’t payed attention to New Balance trainers or the 880 in years… but have to say, I’m interested in the 880 v14. One piece midsole (no air bags, no plates, no mixed foams!), 29/21@8mm drop and under 10oz… sounds like the NB Beacon reborn. I’ll definitely try to find a pair here in Taiwan and cover it. It nails alot of what I like in a trainer for sure. The Peg doesn’t have toe spring… just a mild bevel. Both the Peg40 and Adios 8 shown in this video have quite a few miles on them so the shoes have both molded to me foot quite a bit, those the exaggerated curl up in the toe.
Agree with that …happen with me …last time only use one pair of shoe..always get injuries….now i using diff pair of shoe on my training rotation…I can run more faster getting strong without any injuries…
Very interesting video. I ran in more higher stack shoes in 2023 and I feel they save the feet and calves but distribute force higher up, too quads, hamstring and gluteus. I have developed more problems in quads and piriformis now. I will run more in lower stack stack this year.
I've been running a lot in non-maximal shoes with a nice rocker: Hyperion Max and Noosa Tri. I find the really max stacked shoes change my cadence and I tend to hit the ground harder. There are some great lightweight trainers in the lineup for 2024.
I find the same thing with max stack shoes with heavy rocker...my cadence is off and I do hit the ground much harder. Lower and milder shoes are a nice middle ground for sure.
Intesting article although I feel some misinformation is in there regarding max cushion not being ideal for faster work. The new Nike Alpha Fly is max cushion and top marathon runners are using them because they improve speed over the distance amongst other benefits, allowing splits for the race most running shoe buyers couldn't hold for 1-2k. It's also worth mentioning that most runners on the road don't need a huge amount of stability help. On the trails however, it's vital.
I qualified the statement around max cushion shoes not being used for speed work. Obviously a shoe like the Alphafly is used by elites to win marathons… however you almost never see them running in Alphafly for a speed session for paces under a 5k range. Often you’ll see them wearing a Vaporfly for that or even a track spike (as often they are doing that work on a track). Pace is relative and not absolute here. Also look at ALL of the shoes intended or speed work… they all have very mild rocker for a reason. Also some runners DO need stability on the road. I’m not talking about a stability shoe… but often the really squishy soft foams can cause issues for some runners, especially those with weaker lower legs. Again it’s all relative here…
Really like Pegasus because they absorbs all the impact of my 76 kg, enough energy returning. And what is important for me is that a midsole does not stick from sides over the width of the upper. I like a narrow shape which has enough room inside and don't understand all that extra ( absolutely unnecessary) foam everywhere on the other shoes, especially higher then the level of insole. I got seven pairs of other running shoes but only Pegasus are the shoes I don't think about when I run. I simply forget about what are under my feet and noticed them only when unlacing at home. I can do any kind of training in them. I also have finished my first half marathon in Pegs no problem for two hours.
Wow, you love the Peg. It is a great shoe. I’m also a big fan and spend a lot of time in them on a yearly basis. The wider foam is for stability… especially on softer foam midsoles. Even lower stack shoes, with ultra soft foams, will now be wider to add stability.
@@SagasuRunning might have mentioned it before but the width of say my Invincible 1/2 in a UK 13 seemed to disproportionally wider than a friend's in about UK 9. It was as if Nike "expected" my heels to be 50% wider. Be interesting to do a similar comparison in Novablasts. Like the commentator here I kind of feel all this extra width is wasted on me.
The US size 9 heel flare on the Invincible 3s is outrageous… it was a problem especially once the ZoomX foam wore in a bit, after 200k or so… once it loses its bounce all you were left with was a wide shoe on foot. I can’t imagine how wide it must feel in your size.
I would say at widest and at heel 11 cm Invincible 2, 10 cm NB4. In forefoot I2 13cm, NB4 12.5cm. My actual forefoot is 10 cm. I can almost put both my heels on the back of the Invincible!
I like max stack that’s not too soft. The Superblast is a great example. There some max stack shoes that are just too soft and become unstable. I prefer the cushion somewhere in between not too low or high. I make exceptions depending on how the foam feels. I have both. Max for longer runs. Low for shorter, faster sessions.
I enjoy the Superblast but I find it just too much foam often. I also treat as as a super shoe and only really pull it out anymore when I would otherwise use a super shoe. The Brook Ghost Max is a firmer shoe and I’m enjoying the foam on it… for similar reasons as to what you said. I’ll have a review up this weekend of it.
thank you for the video, chanced upon it. Very insightful, but (just my humble opinion), I somewhat disagree on alternating between max stack and low stack shoes for the sake of different (muscle) workout. For me personally, even switching between lines of the same brand of shoe greatly affects my ride / stride, ground feel, (pronation and etc.,) and etc., To your point of not utilizing the same set of muscles especially on daily runs, that I do agree, but the solution to that (for me) is not change shoes (stack) drastically, but do different types of running / training (hills, intervals, track, strength training, and etc.,).
That definitely engages different muscle groups as well, but many don't do that. Having different stacks/drops to rotate in is never a bad idea. On any giving week I'll do 2-3 easy runs in mostly low stack trainers, occasionally max stack. 1-2 workouts in shoes ranging from a Takumi Sen to a Alphafly, 1-2 trail runs in lower stack trail shoes (lots of proprioceptive feedback) and a long run in a low or max stack shoe. Different drops, cushioning systems, geometries and feels...so combining both adds to even more.
@@SagasuRunning Thank you for the feedback. I completely understand / know where you are coming from, and right, most people (especially off seasons), do not follow a fairly regimented running routine. I am getting older myself and (grudgingly) adjusting to inevitable loss of running speed /power / economy, along with the long(er) recovery. I'll likely do most runs in my low stack racers and start doing my long runs in Saucony Kinvara's.
Happy New Year! Long time Pegasus runner here, mainly to keep it simple, I alternate between old and new Pegs. Interesting that it is a low stack, I feel tall in them 😂 I once tried the React Infinity and I liked it, roomy at the front. I am in the market for new shoes, I have watched your video on marathon shoe rotation and the reviews of different shoes, I trust your insights. Would you be so kind as to recommend me a 2 shoe rotation, and a bonus shoe maybe? I am training for a HM, no race date, but I would like something that can take me the distance and even farther. Part of me wants to stay in the Nike fam, the other part wants to try Adidas, Saucony, etc. Thank you, All the best this New Year!
Starting to think my first hip injury ever might be related to me introducing a ton of big stack shoes - a lot of superblast and endorphin pro 3 for my big long runs/workouts. Although long/hard efforts feel great in shoes like that, I wonder how I can balance out the mileage to give my body a break from the big stack shoes. Really interesting piece of info that I hadn’t considered before about high stack shoes shifting force up the body. Thanks!
Running creates force… you cannot escape those forces in the body…. Different stacks, geometries and foams just shift said forces around the body. Lots of trial and error and analysis to figure out what works for you and what doesn’t. I’m glad this video got you thinking about it. 🤙🏻
Really interesting video. I've just switched from low stack to high and hate them. For the past month my feet have been aching all the time. should I consider going back to low?
Depending on how long you've run in max cushion shoes...it could take months or more for your feet to build the strength and durability needed for low stack shoes. Now you see what you are missing when only running in max cushion shoes. I'd advise to mix it up...do 2 runs in low stack and then 1 in max cushion...break it up and give your feet time to adjust.
Just starting to use some lower (relative, ofc) stack shoes - Adios 8 and Topo Cyclone 2. So far, so good. I'm very interested in hearing your feedback on the Ghost Max. I use it maybe once a week on my easiest run, but it doesn't seem like the type of shoe you would be super interested in.
I’ll have my review of it up this weekend. I have to say I am enjoying it and have really become enamored with the foam in it. I do have a durability concern… but I need to put some more kms into it to see.
This was really helpful and interesting. I am a very slow 62 old runner. I only really run in NB More v3 for basically all my runs. My feet, knees and calves are fine. But I do get hip issues. Any recommendation on a additional low stack shoe? I'll probably replace my cushion show at some point this year as well.
Since you already enjoy NB… I’m quite excited about the upcoming NB 880 v14, it’s a simple low stack shoe that would be a good partners to the More v3. The 880 v14 is releasing in March.
One point is that in low stack shoe your calfs get more impact and create mini muscles damage which you don't get in higher stack shoes or if you use Calf sleeve.. My experience..
They going to be more to do with the drop and toe spring… and how much extra pressure that puts on the forefoot as well as the calves. Calf sleeves definitely will help to mitigate this to so degree.
Wrong. Just look at shoes like the NB More V4. or many other models. There are shoes with 30+ mm in the forefoot that don't need a rocker because they are extremely flexible. Check the stats on run repeat for instance. Maybe that shoe needs the rocker because it's stiff as a board, but that's not a rule for other better designed shoes. At least better imo, it all varies based on what you're going for and I don't like rockers and I don't like overly stiff shoes. But I do like tons of cushion all over and minimal drop. These brooks have like 12 mm or something. '
You are pointing to one or two edge cases. Of course super high stack shoes with little rocker have existed. They are mostly all replaced. Less and less each year… for a reason.
the problem is if u switch to two shoes u are going to get injured as ur just shifting the loads and annoying areas in body that are not use to the training that u have did from wearing previous shoes that are lower shack height. therfore if u run alot of miles ur taking big risk wearing both. and also even taking risk changing to the high stack, i have got injured doing it as my shoes were stopped being made. its not good but ther are very little low to middle stack running shoes and this means people forced to change im gutted over the nimbus 23 i loved them and now i have look for somethg else as the 25 and 26 height stack is just too much my legs were so tight back was tiggt and i walked in them first for a wek and running was awful but i loved them they just didnt love me lol
Rotating between low or high stack is a good thing and valuable to any runner. Also running in different drops. However, as with everything in running, it needs to be done in moderation and slowly at first. Let the body adjust and build first. That’s an important step.
I’m trying to get into the low stack shoes. I have too many high stack shoes. I feel like I need to develop more foot strength. I’m itching to buy the Asics Hyperspeed 3s.
That’s definitely the point of running in low stack shoes, one of the main ones actually. Foot strength. The Hyper Speed 3 is a good place to start. If I ever see a pair I’ll definitely pick them up (they are rare in Taiwan).
why isnt there like a mid stack and 'true max stack' category? isnt it too limited only having those options when talking which shoe belongs in which category? like technically if were using ur formula, a 1080v13 would b considered low stack shoe coz 31mm forefoot stack shoes like kinvara13/adios8 should be low stack while shoes like pegasus/880v13 would belong in mid stack and high stack 1080v13/novablast and then max stack shoes like superblast/prime x strung anyway great vid! since u said u prefer ground feel low stack shoes which shoes do u mainly use in ur rotation atm?
Of course there is a “normal stack” category… but in this video I was just talking about the two extremes as they are a topic I find myself talking a lot about on this channel. I’ll eventually add to this series with a “normal stack” video… later this year.
Thank you for this video. I was trying to figure out why my legs felt weak and wobbly when I run in the high stack shoes like the Superblast and SC Fuelcell V2. I started running in very low stack shoes and liked the ground feel until I recently switched to the high stack bulky shoes. I couldn’t figure out why my legs aren’t as strong as before when I was weigh training like squatting. I just switched back to my old nike Pegasus and Althetic Propulsion Labs shoes for running. I can feel like I’m actually running expending my energy. How often should one be rotating with the low and high stack shoes? I have never liked high stack but I thought I’d give it a try since I like to run after my weight training session.
There really isn’t a rule for rotating between low and high stack. Go by feel. You do get a different type of training stimulus in super soft and high stack shoes. Low stack shoes work the flexibility in your legs and high stack shoes work your joints and stabilizers. Both are valuable. Personally speaking I run 6 days a week… 2-3 of those days are in a low stack shoe like a Pegasus, 1-2 is in a super shoe (workouts) and 2 are in high stack shoes. This mix has worked well for me for years.
@@SagasuRunning This is very helpful. Thank you. I have always run in low stack shoes for 4 years. I couldn’t increase my pace when I started running in high stack shoes, so I thought I was doing something wrong and struggled. Thank you so much for a helpful video. :)
I remember trying out the deviate nitro elite for the first time 2 years ago. It was my highest stack shoe in my rotation by far. It took me a month to get used to the stack height but I still have that feeling of 'This doesn't feel right'. I tried many other shoes in that stack height range and that feeling never goes away. Not being able to feel the ground feels odd the say the least and I wonder if will I ever get over it. Also, I find myself questioning having at least one shoe for recovery runs that has a high and soft midsole. Are there any concrete data on these or it's just a placebo effect that doing the work? From my personal experience, I would say there is little to no benefit to my recovery if I use soft and cushioned shoes instead of standard 30mm or lower running shoes.
If the data exists, Doctors of Running has likely discussed it. I’d dig through past podcasts. For recovery runs I actually prefer a firmer lower stack shoe, one that I can feel my foot moving in. That way I can work on what may be sore. I actually prefer recovery running Luna Sandals. In this video I wasn’t recommended any type of shoe specially for any type of running. You can have a high stack daily trainer as well as a low stack one. It’s why I picked the shoes I did in this video as I use all 4 of them as “daily trainers” often. I know from my own running I do better in lower stack shoes… however I race I higher stack shoes (Vaporfly 3) and have come around to enjoying the newer max stack shoes on occasion. The message of this video is the importance of mixing up the training stimulus…
Running moves in trends. We are seeing the crest of a wave right now… for max stack everything. There will (inevitably) be a next trend… likely involving less foam and less stack (as I think it will be weight savings and once foams are maxed out they will look elsewhere to reduce weight).
Yeah I had knee replacement in august and having a hell of a time finding shoes. My Brooks ghost which is 12mm heel to toe seem to bother the side of my knee I’m guessing the it band. When I put on my lower stack not very supportive Skechers the discomfort on the side of my knee eases. Tried the brooks max cushion but I Think due to the knee surgery and stack height it may be too much. Same with the Altra forward. It’s been a struggle. Do you suggest a lower stack and mid heel to toe for me. I do have high arch and put my own insoles in
It’s going to be a tough shoe to find but something with a 5-8mm drop and a wider platform underfoot with a firmer more supportive foam that you can drop and insole into…. The Brooks Ghost Max is the first one to come to mind. Beyond that it’s not an area I often look into.
Hi Chris, great job on this video. Insightful to help me understand why my left hip feels so sore. I’m considering to change my daily trainer from Adidas SL to either Boston 12 or Novablast 4. What is your advice? They are same price in HK. Some people asked me to buy both and just rotate them for my easy run. PS. My long run model is Superblast which works well for me.
Well… if it’s only between those two shoes… I’d say the Boston 12 might be better for you. I know you race in Adidas and if you already have the Superblast… the Novablast 4 is very good but very similar (the SB is better for training). The Boston is a good all rounder for sure. I’m actually waiting on the Adidas Supernova Rise… it’s not in Taiwan yet but going be a better daily option from Adidas… plus toe low stack (24mm forefoot). It should be a softer options between a Boston and a Novablast as well.
@@01lsw Good luck. The Boston will feel much more like your Adios Pro 3… but a little more forgiving and a bit heavier. A solid trainer with rods to rotate in with non plated shoes like the SL.
Got it! Appreciate your kind reminder - I won’t throw away my SL after buying Boston 12 😅. Thank you for remembering Pro 3 as my racing shoes. Btw, I will run 2 marathons - Tokyo and Boston. I guess the new pair can cover 2 races instead of buying a new pair for Boston…
@@01lsw Wow, congrats. Those are the next two races I want to do… but I didn’t get my BQ in NYC and the lottery for Tokyo is so random. Two spring races. I definitely recommend the Boston 12 now. Your winter running isn’t just base… it’s training. The Boston 12 + Superblast will be a great training pair for your spring races! 加油!
Where do you think the Vomero 17 fits? Based on your impressions video, it' almost seems like a hybrid between low stack (semi-traditional geometry) & high-stack (almost 30mm + slight rocker profile)?
It’s right in the middle… it’s neither. Though it runs more like a max stack shoe and prefers easier running. Even the geometry is a bit of a mix. It’s a fun shoe but a bit of an oddball.
personally I would put the Vomero 17 as high stack as like the Novablast it is not a shoe I find overly easy to run in or rather it makes we want to run at an easy pace. Thinking about it the Invincible 1 oddly had some ground feel under my toes so maybe I just struggle in shoes which are sort of bottom heavy as I don't really land there.
The Vomero 17 is definitely bottom heavy. Not like the Zoom Fly 3/4 type of weight… but you definitely notice it. I actually like that feeling in the shoe though and find it helps the shoe run a bit smoother… it balances out the ZoomX, which is really just there for step on plushness and peg savings (a good use of the material for a easy run shoe).
@@SagasuRunning i kind of thought the NB4 was a little bottom heavy as well although just try to balance on it one finger it does seems reasonably well centred. It does look "massive" compared to a Speed 1 just got to hnd right now. Not got my Vomero 17 with but although heavier than the NB4 maybe does not look as bulky. At least slipping on the Invincible 2 the actual fit isn't too wide for me. There is just a lot of rubber "sticking out" !!!
I’ve enjoyed the Rebel series in the past… though the V4 seems like it will be a big departure. I spent alot of time in the Rebel v1 and a bit in the v2. Both good shoes.
I wasn’t trying to cover ALL toe max stack models, especially given there are SO many of them. The NB foams all see unreasonably soft in 2023… that certainly doesn’t help stability.
@@edwinpepito1498 Highly likely. The instability is likely forcing your back to compensate… thus creating the problem area. Everyone’s body is different, but hips and back are two areas that become problematic when eh feet are not stable. Obviously I’m not a PT and can’t say anymore… but I’d look into that.
Same for me MV4, last time I use in a Marathon, my back hurts after the run. But if half marathon I would be fine. Contrary when I use stiffer shoe like Boston series, my pain will transfer to foot ankle after a marathon.
@@emert7403 You may want check other Asics Superblast. It’s firm like the Boston 12 but has not carbon plate/rods so will be much nice on your feet for longer distance… it also is firm enough to give support for those longer efforts.
Not really… I still think the best option for a full/half marathon is the Nike Vaporfly 3. Honestly that shoe runs much lower than it is and can disappear on your foot and feel like a raving flat, especially the Vaporfly 1 or 2. For the half… there are people that make the Takumi Sen work… but that’s really pushing the shoe beyond what it was intended for. I’ve run 21k in the Adios 8… I imagine it feeling quite nice to race in… But neither are going to be a better option than the Vaporfly 3. Max stack/plated shoes work for racing… and work very well.
but Vaporfly is a supershoe, its plated and cost 200$. Naah. A day when i'll wake up ready to pay 200$ for a shoe I'll probably go for Superblast. Or 2 pairs of Invincibles (that will be lifelong stock considering their durability). Once I realized thet Invincible 3s covers 80% of my needs (short, long, slow, moderate) I'm thinking of using them not only for marathon training but also for marathon race. They're great for anything slower than 4'59/km and thats enough for me. (and I paid 90$ for new (not bargain but great price anyway). And finally i rotate them only with Rebel V3 (and one pair of old 1080v10 for cold and bad weather, they dont wanna die but theyre not funny anymore) Another idea - if someone took Takumi Sen for alf why not try Adios 8 for the full distance?
@Ziggymundus in 2024… very few race in racing flats anymore. I did see the occasional Nike Streakfly or Adidas Adios 8 at the NYC Marathon last year… but they were few. If you are training in a max cushion shoe like the Invincible… I’d not recommend looking for something low stack to race in. The Superblast would be a much better option if you don’t want to use a plated shoe. The longest run I’ve personally done in the Adios 8 was 23k… and it was fine… but a vaporfly would have been faster and more protective over that distance.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🏃♂️ *Introduction to the comparison of max stack and low stack running shoes.*
00:39 📏 *Defining max stack (over 32mm foam) and low stack (under 25mm foam) shoes for 2024.*
01:31 📈 *Evolution of low stack shoe definition from under 20mm to under 25mm foam.*
01:45 🛠️ *Max stack shoes characterized by significant foam and a prominent forefoot rocker.*
02:25 🎢 *Max stack shoes often feature a heel-to-toe rocker for heel strikers.*
02:54 🪨 *Low stack shoes show traditional geometry with minimal rocker.*
03:50 👟 *Max stack shoes are suitable for runners needing more foot and lower leg protection.*
04:30 🌟 *Low stack shoes emphasize foot and ankle strength and mechanics.*
05:13 ⚖️ *Max stack shoes sacrifice stability due to higher foam platform.*
06:09 🏞️ *Low stack shoes offer enhanced stability and ground feel.*
07:01 🏃♀️ *Max stack shoes provide a smooth ride, especially on easy runs.*
07:31 🚀 *Low stack shoes are more adaptable to various running paces.*
08:38 💭 *Consideration of personal biomechanics and injury history when choosing shoes.*
09:19 🚑 *Max stack shoes may shift impact forces to knees and hips.*
10:02 🔄 *Importance of alternating between max stack and low stack shoes for varied training stimuli.*
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Taken from the book Running science, Owen Anderson, PhD. "The scientific research on running shoes and orthotics shatters many myths and is very liberating to runners. It is important for runners to know that specific running shoes don’t really provide superior cushioning, stability, motion control, or protection from injury compared with using other types of running shoes, and especially compared with running barefoot. Soft shoes don’t cushion the feet and legs better than hard shoes, nor do more expensive shoes ensure greater defense against injury and higher performance-in fact, perhaps the opposite. The life expectancy of a pair of running shoes is probably longer than commonly believed, and no brand of running shoes is better than any other. As a result, runners can buy their shoes based on fit and moderate purchase price instead of feeling that they must go for pricey, high-tech, high-end footwear. In addition, runners can take a close look at doing at least some of their running barefoot, a practice that enhances economy, stride rate, and foot-strike pattern and seems to reduce the impact forces running up the legs."
I agree on incorporating some barefoot running and strength training into one’s running practice. The benefits are outstanding.
I’ve talked a bit about my background with barefoot running on this channel. It’s a very important foundation.
An excellent book, but the research and findings from the book were all from the days prior to all of these new foams.
@ryantinney DOR has covered this all in quite a bit of detail over the past year or so. The short of it is that much more research is needed on the new foams…
My legs speak and tell me they like ZoomX
@@RowOfMushyTiT Many legs do. Mine let me know they especially like the recovery that ZoomX offers.
This was a masterclass. It helped explain why I have tend to have trouble with max stack shoes - less stability than low stack. But I get suckered by all that foam like the Asics Nimbus lol
It’s hard to resist the big chunky shoes sometimes… they are ok in moderation for most… but glad I can help to explain why one is better than the other given biomechanics. 🤙🏻
Your analysis applies even more to trail running shoes. It took me a while to realize I hate rockered trail shoes. You lose agility, they force a certain midfoot strike and they accelerate you on downhills forcing you to heel strike to brake. Much happier with lower drop, less rockered shoes like the Kigers an Kjerags.
Trail running currently has its own set of needs at the moment. Interestingly low stack options are still very valid on the trail. I love my Kjerag, Norda 001 and I do enjoy the Kiger 9 (though the upper doesn’t like my foot as much).
Super foams, plates and massive rocker are a challenge for all but the perfect terrain.
I enjoy my boston 12s. They feel great on long runs. Smooth and propulsive, like i could go on forever.....But towards the end of 18 and 20 mile runs the hips start to feel weird and akward. I love running on the adios 8 the next day. I can feel the ground again and feels incredible in an intangible way..a reset shoe of sorts. Well done sir. Well done.
You are doing it right! I feel the same way moving from the Adios Pro to the Adios… the difference for the feet and legs is outstanding.
My local running community has been keep saying boston 12 is on the firmer side.
@@wolger All adidas Lightstrike Pro/rods shoes are on the firm side. That’s a hallmark of LSP and the rods.
@@wolgerit depends on how heavy you are. I am 5ft7inch height and weight 75kilos. Boston 12 LSP foam feels soft and smooth out of the box, probably because I can compress the foam and rods more compared to a lighter weight runner. Just a bit more firmer than Invincible 3 ZoomX. Also depends on climate I think. I live in tropical weather, mostly 26deg to 33deg Celsius year round. I hear that Adidas LSP foam to be harder in colder weather but I have no experience on that.
It's a strange world when you hold up a Pegasus 40 and present it as a "low stack" shoe! Even spikes now like the Dragonflys aren't as low as they used to be and running even a track 10K in them and not hobbling off is nice! Those plus Adios 8, Takumi Sen 9, Streakfly of my current shoes probably feel "low" in relative terms to me but these days even ones like Vaporfly 1/2/3 don't feel as "high" as say an Invincible or Novablast mainly as I feel they are a lot easier to run in. Pegasus 40 I would probably just put in the middle. Not sure if it is my long narrow feet but these shoes with supposed rockers like the Novablast not sure I feel that much. Agree though when say trying to do say strides in shoes like Novablast or even trying to run a bit faster, I kind of feel the brakes are sort of on.
Remember the days when the Boston 9 at 21mm in the heel and 13mm in the forefoot felt “well cushioned”? Or the Peg Turbo at 28mm in the heel and 21mm in the forefoot felt “maximal”?
It’s a different world now and the reality is “low stack” means something very different. If anything it’s a geometry difference for me now, modern rockered vs traditional.
@@SagasuRunning I think historically I have only considered having session day and not session day shoes. Now those “sleeker” ones like the Boston are called super trainers :)
Yes! The Boston 9 was the original “Super Trainer”. Next time I see one, I’m going to pick it up. They are still around here in Taipei… even at official Adidas stores on occasion. I don’t know why… but they randomly appear. I want to do a proper review on the shoe and remind people what the Adidas Boston SHOULD be.
@@SagasuRunningmy first was the Boston 2 and I had 2 versions of the Adios before what we now think of the Adios 1 (being the first Boost one). Certainly those earlier Adios would make even the Boston 9 seem "high stack"
@@TimGrose Agree. I remember switching from the Adios 3 to the Boston 8 for “daily” running… it felt like I had bottomless cushioning.
Some of this is nostalgia for sure… but I do miss those shoes still… as much as I like many current shoes out there.
Brooks Launch 10 - 24mm in heel 14mm in forefoot - is a shoe I enjoy running in more than some foamier shoes. The feedback I get from it helps keep my form where it needs to be.
I didn’t know that shoe existed. It’s interesting… but why is it 8.3oz? I’ve recently become enamored with Brooks’s foams… I may have to try to find a pair of these. They sound like what I have been missing!
Would you compare the Brooks Launch 10 similar to the Nike Pegasus? I love my old Pegasus.
The Launch is more like the Nike Winflo. The Ghost is the match to the Pegasus in the Brooks lineup.
@@SagasuRunning That’s wonderful to know. I don’t own any Brooks running shoes. Would you recommend the Brooks Launch 10 or the Nike Winflo. I will have to check out the Ghost pair. I find Nike’s shoe size fit me better than ASICS and Hoka. Are Brooks sizing runs true to size? I have very small and narrow feet almost a size 5. I don’t need the extra toe room.
It’s recommend the Nike then. Brooks have a wider and more generous fit. The Winflo is decent…. But I’d recommend the Pegasus over it.
Brilliant video. So clear and also really useful for 90% of runners
That’s my goal with these “running shoe basics” videos I’m doing. Check out the playlist in the description for more like this.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video, it was extremely informative as I was trying to decide if I wanted to get HS or LS for running my FIRST marathon. This video gave me the info I needed to make a decision. I currently have a new pair of Brooks Ghost Max as a gift from my son, and I just started training with them, but I personally find them massive. YES, they feel really nice and smooth, but I feel like I'm floating all over the place with them, and some times I feel like I'm running on air. Now for some people that may sound like that's what we want when running right? but no, I just decommissioned my Nike Flex Experience Run 10 after 900 Kms, and I really miss how I felt with them. I didn't know anything about stacks, but after seeing this video I know I went from low stack to high stack, and honestly I think I will order low stack shoes to run my first L.A. marathon, as I don't think I would be able to make it with the high stack ones. The only problem now is that I don't know which low stack shoes to order, but I'll continue researching.
In the meantime THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video.
Some low stack shoes to take a look at would be; New Balance 880 v13 or the upcoming 14, New Balance Rebel v3, Adidas Adios 8, Puma Deviate Nitro 2 (not super lower stop but a lower stack plated shoe that may be a good marathon shoe for you)…. Hopefully those get you started.
I’m glad this one was useful for you. 🤙🏻
Topo ST-5 is the only recent old school low stack shoe coming in at 15MM, anything lower gets you into the category of minimal shoes(sub-10mm) with Xero and Vivobarefoot
More of a zero drop wide toebox barefoot’esque shoe… like Altra Escalante of old. If I want I shoe like this I’ll just go full minimal/barefoot shoe.
It is interesting to see Topo fill all these super niche areas though.
The Saucony Sinister really is the most old school flat out there. In fit and drop. The Brooks Launch as well.
Besides rotating stack heights, it's also a good idea to rotate heel drops and midsole materials; i.e., EVA, PEBA, TPEE, TPU.
Yup. I have a video that touches on this… it’s in the playlist in the description. I’ll keep adding to this series with other “running shoe basics”…
@@SagasuRunning Very good. Thank you
The new 880 looks interesting. Lower stack. Single density midsole. Mild bevel without much rocker. The Pegasus looks like it has more toe spring than a rocker.
I haven’t payed attention to New Balance trainers or the 880 in years… but have to say, I’m interested in the 880 v14. One piece midsole (no air bags, no plates, no mixed foams!), 29/21@8mm drop and under 10oz… sounds like the NB Beacon reborn. I’ll definitely try to find a pair here in Taiwan and cover it. It nails alot of what I like in a trainer for sure.
The Peg doesn’t have toe spring… just a mild bevel. Both the Peg40 and Adios 8 shown in this video have quite a few miles on them so the shoes have both molded to me foot quite a bit, those the exaggerated curl up in the toe.
Agree with that …happen with me …last time only use one pair of shoe..always get injuries….now i using diff pair of shoe on my training rotation…I can run more faster getting strong without any injuries…
Rotating shoes is very important to avoid repetitive stress injuries.
Very interesting video. I ran in more higher stack shoes in 2023 and I feel they save the feet and calves but distribute force higher up, too quads, hamstring and gluteus. I have developed more problems in quads and piriformis now. I will run more in lower stack stack this year.
They definitely do distribute those forces higher up the leg. Mix it up, you'll really feel the differences.
I've been running a lot in non-maximal shoes with a nice rocker: Hyperion Max and Noosa Tri. I find the really max stacked shoes change my cadence and I tend to hit the ground harder.
There are some great lightweight trainers in the lineup for 2024.
I find the same thing with max stack shoes with heavy rocker...my cadence is off and I do hit the ground much harder.
Lower and milder shoes are a nice middle ground for sure.
I am addicted to energy return so as max stack I enjoy the Triumph 20 and 21.
I’m considering giving the Triumph 22 a shot this year…
@@SagasuRunning Absolutely getting it. As well as the Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro V2 and maybe Mizuno Wave Flash V2.. Alphafly V2 or V3 when on sale..
@@i.p2088 I’ll see if I can find Mizunos here in Taiwan. They are rare as far as running… Mizuno is all gold, baseball and badminton here.
Love this video! Thanks!
I hope it was useful. Thanks for watching! 🤙🏻
Intesting article although I feel some misinformation is in there regarding max cushion not being ideal for faster work. The new Nike Alpha Fly is max cushion and top marathon runners are using them because they improve speed over the distance amongst other benefits, allowing splits for the race most running shoe buyers couldn't hold for 1-2k. It's also worth mentioning that most runners on the road don't need a huge amount of stability help. On the trails however, it's vital.
I qualified the statement around max cushion shoes not being used for speed work. Obviously a shoe like the Alphafly is used by elites to win marathons… however you almost never see them running in Alphafly for a speed session for paces under a 5k range. Often you’ll see them wearing a Vaporfly for that or even a track spike (as often they are doing that work on a track).
Pace is relative and not absolute here.
Also look at ALL of the shoes intended or speed work… they all have very mild rocker for a reason.
Also some runners DO need stability on the road. I’m not talking about a stability shoe… but often the really squishy soft foams can cause issues for some runners, especially those with weaker lower legs.
Again it’s all relative here…
Really like Pegasus because they absorbs all the impact of my 76 kg, enough energy returning. And what is important for me is that a midsole does not stick from sides over the width of the upper.
I like a narrow shape which has enough room inside and don't understand all that extra ( absolutely unnecessary) foam everywhere on the other shoes, especially higher then the level of insole.
I got seven pairs of other running shoes but only Pegasus are the shoes I don't think about when I run. I simply forget about what are under my feet and noticed them only when unlacing at home. I can do any kind of training in them. I also have finished my first half marathon in Pegs no problem for two hours.
Wow, you love the Peg. It is a great shoe. I’m also a big fan and spend a lot of time in them on a yearly basis.
The wider foam is for stability… especially on softer foam midsoles. Even lower stack shoes, with ultra soft foams, will now be wider to add stability.
@@SagasuRunning might have mentioned it before but the width of say my Invincible 1/2 in a UK 13 seemed to disproportionally wider than a friend's in about UK 9. It was as if Nike "expected" my heels to be 50% wider. Be interesting to do a similar comparison in Novablasts. Like the commentator here I kind of feel all this extra width is wasted on me.
The US size 9 heel flare on the Invincible 3s is outrageous… it was a problem especially once the ZoomX foam wore in a bit, after 200k or so… once it loses its bounce all you were left with was a wide shoe on foot. I can’t imagine how wide it must feel in your size.
@@SagasuRunning am in Portugal but by chance I have a v2 here will go and see if can and measure it…
I would say at widest and at heel 11 cm Invincible 2, 10 cm NB4. In forefoot I2 13cm, NB4 12.5cm. My actual forefoot is 10 cm. I can almost put both my heels on the back of the Invincible!
The best in the game. Sagasu, thank you.
I appreciate the support! 🤙🏻
I like max stack that’s not too soft. The Superblast is a great example. There some max stack shoes that are just too soft and become unstable. I prefer the cushion somewhere in between not too low or high. I make exceptions depending on how the foam feels. I have both. Max for longer runs. Low for shorter, faster sessions.
I enjoy the Superblast but I find it just too much foam often. I also treat as as a super shoe and only really pull it out anymore when I would otherwise use a super shoe.
The Brook Ghost Max is a firmer shoe and I’m enjoying the foam on it… for similar reasons as to what you said. I’ll have a review up this weekend of it.
thank you for the video, chanced upon it. Very insightful, but (just my humble opinion), I somewhat disagree on alternating between max stack and low stack shoes for the sake of different (muscle) workout. For me personally, even switching between lines of the same brand of shoe greatly affects my ride / stride, ground feel, (pronation and etc.,) and etc., To your point of not utilizing the same set of muscles especially on daily runs, that I do agree, but the solution to that (for me) is not change shoes (stack) drastically, but do different types of running / training (hills, intervals, track, strength training, and etc.,).
That definitely engages different muscle groups as well, but many don't do that. Having different stacks/drops to rotate in is never a bad idea. On any giving week I'll do 2-3 easy runs in mostly low stack trainers, occasionally max stack. 1-2 workouts in shoes ranging from a Takumi Sen to a Alphafly, 1-2 trail runs in lower stack trail shoes (lots of proprioceptive feedback) and a long run in a low or max stack shoe. Different drops, cushioning systems, geometries and feels...so combining both adds to even more.
@@SagasuRunning Thank you for the feedback. I completely understand / know where you are coming from, and right, most people (especially off seasons), do not follow a fairly regimented running routine. I am getting older myself and (grudgingly) adjusting to inevitable loss of running speed /power / economy, along with the long(er) recovery. I'll likely do most runs in my low stack racers and start doing my long runs in Saucony Kinvara's.
I’m now spring chicken here… we can fight the inevitable (tooth and nail) for as long as we want. Age is but a number. Keep going! 🤙🏻
Happy New Year! Long time Pegasus runner here, mainly to keep it simple, I alternate between old and new Pegs. Interesting that it is a low stack, I feel tall in them 😂 I once tried the React Infinity and I liked it, roomy at the front. I am in the market for new shoes, I have watched your video on marathon shoe rotation and the reviews of different shoes, I trust your insights. Would you be so kind as to recommend me a 2 shoe rotation, and a bonus shoe maybe? I am training for a HM, no race date, but I would like something that can take me the distance and even farther. Part of me wants to stay in the Nike fam, the other part wants to try Adidas, Saucony, etc. Thank you, All the best this New Year!
What shoe will you be racing in?
@@SagasuRunning I am open to a race shoe as well, was thinking of that as the bonus shoe. Thank you!
361 Flame ST is very firm but because it hight unstable for sure.. Alphafly V1 is that only shoe I turned my ankle in on our village roads.
The AF was crazy unstable. It was also a shoe I was worried about running in at first. I was always very careful cornering in them.
Starting to think my first hip injury ever might be related to me introducing a ton of big stack shoes - a lot of superblast and endorphin pro 3 for my big long runs/workouts. Although long/hard efforts feel great in shoes like that, I wonder how I can balance out the mileage to give my body a break from the big stack shoes. Really interesting piece of info that I hadn’t considered before about high stack shoes shifting force up the body. Thanks!
Running creates force… you cannot escape those forces in the body…. Different stacks, geometries and foams just shift said forces around the body. Lots of trial and error and analysis to figure out what works for you and what doesn’t.
I’m glad this video got you thinking about it. 🤙🏻
Really interesting video. I've just switched from low stack to high and hate them. For the past month my feet have been aching all the time. should I consider going back to low?
Depending on how long you've run in max cushion shoes...it could take months or more for your feet to build the strength and durability needed for low stack shoes. Now you see what you are missing when only running in max cushion shoes.
I'd advise to mix it up...do 2 runs in low stack and then 1 in max cushion...break it up and give your feet time to adjust.
Good breakdown thank you
Have you done a long term Novablast 4 review?
Yup, here is my 100mi review: Asics Novablast 4 after 100 miles - Versatile and consistent
Just starting to use some lower (relative, ofc) stack shoes - Adios 8 and Topo Cyclone 2. So far, so good. I'm very interested in hearing your feedback on the Ghost Max. I use it maybe once a week on my easiest run, but it doesn't seem like the type of shoe you would be super interested in.
I’ll have my review of it up this weekend. I have to say I am enjoying it and have really become enamored with the foam in it. I do have a durability concern… but I need to put some more kms into it to see.
This was really helpful and interesting. I am a very slow 62 old runner. I only really run in NB More v3 for basically all my runs. My feet, knees and calves are fine. But I do get hip issues. Any recommendation on a additional low stack shoe? I'll probably replace my cushion show at some point this year as well.
Since you already enjoy NB… I’m quite excited about the upcoming NB 880 v14, it’s a simple low stack shoe that would be a good partners to the More v3.
The 880 v14 is releasing in March.
One point is that in low stack shoe your calfs get more impact and create mini muscles damage which you don't get in higher stack shoes or if you use Calf sleeve.. My experience..
They going to be more to do with the drop and toe spring… and how much extra pressure that puts on the forefoot as well as the calves. Calf sleeves definitely will help to mitigate this to so degree.
Wrong. Just look at shoes like the NB More V4. or many other models. There are shoes with 30+ mm in the forefoot that don't need a rocker because they are extremely flexible. Check the stats on run repeat for instance. Maybe that shoe needs the rocker because it's stiff as a board, but that's not a rule for other better designed shoes. At least better imo, it all varies based on what you're going for and I don't like rockers and I don't like overly stiff shoes. But I do like tons of cushion all over and minimal drop. These brooks have like 12 mm or something. '
You are pointing to one or two edge cases. Of course super high stack shoes with little rocker have existed. They are mostly all replaced. Less and less each year… for a reason.
the problem is if u switch to two shoes u are going to get injured as ur just shifting the loads and annoying areas in body that are not use to the training that u have did from wearing previous shoes that are lower shack height. therfore if u run alot of miles ur taking big risk wearing both. and also even taking risk changing to the high stack, i have got injured doing it as my shoes were stopped being made. its not good but ther are very little low to middle stack running shoes and this means people forced to change im gutted over the nimbus 23 i loved them and now i have look for somethg else as the 25 and 26 height stack is just too much my legs were so tight back was tiggt and i walked in them first for a wek and running was awful but i loved them they just didnt love me lol
Rotating between low or high stack is a good thing and valuable to any runner. Also running in different drops. However, as with everything in running, it needs to be done in moderation and slowly at first. Let the body adjust and build first. That’s an important step.
I’m trying to get into the low stack shoes. I have too many high stack shoes. I feel like I need to develop more foot strength. I’m itching to buy the Asics Hyperspeed 3s.
That’s definitely the point of running in low stack shoes, one of the main ones actually. Foot strength. The Hyper Speed 3 is a good place to start. If I ever see a pair I’ll definitely pick them up (they are rare in Taiwan).
why isnt there like a mid stack and 'true max stack' category?
isnt it too limited only having those options when talking which shoe belongs in which category?
like technically if were using ur formula, a 1080v13 would b considered low stack shoe coz 31mm forefoot stack
shoes like kinvara13/adios8 should be low stack while shoes like pegasus/880v13 would belong in mid stack and high stack 1080v13/novablast and then max stack shoes like superblast/prime x strung
anyway great vid! since u said u prefer ground feel low stack shoes which shoes do u mainly use in ur rotation atm?
Of course there is a “normal stack” category… but in this video I was just talking about the two extremes as they are a topic I find myself talking a lot about on this channel.
I’ll eventually add to this series with a “normal stack” video… later this year.
Thank you for this video. I was trying to figure out why my legs felt weak and wobbly when I run in the high stack shoes like the Superblast and SC Fuelcell V2. I started running in very low stack shoes and liked the ground feel until I recently switched to the high stack bulky shoes. I couldn’t figure out why my legs aren’t as strong as before when I was weigh training like squatting. I just switched back to my old nike Pegasus and Althetic Propulsion Labs shoes for running. I can feel like I’m actually running expending my energy.
How often should one be rotating with the low and high stack shoes? I have never liked high stack but I thought I’d give it a try since I like to run after my weight training session.
There really isn’t a rule for rotating between low and high stack. Go by feel. You do get a different type of training stimulus in super soft and high stack shoes. Low stack shoes work the flexibility in your legs and high stack shoes work your joints and stabilizers. Both are valuable.
Personally speaking I run 6 days a week… 2-3 of those days are in a low stack shoe like a Pegasus, 1-2 is in a super shoe (workouts) and 2 are in high stack shoes. This mix has worked well for me for years.
@@SagasuRunning This is very helpful. Thank you. I have always run in low stack shoes for 4 years. I couldn’t increase my pace when I started running in high stack shoes, so I thought I was doing something wrong and struggled. Thank you so much for a helpful video. :)
I remember trying out the deviate nitro elite for the first time 2 years ago. It was my highest stack shoe in my rotation by far. It took me a month to get used to the stack height but I still have that feeling of 'This doesn't feel right'. I tried many other shoes in that stack height range and that feeling never goes away. Not being able to feel the ground feels odd the say the least and I wonder if will I ever get over it.
Also, I find myself questioning having at least one shoe for recovery runs that has a high and soft midsole. Are there any concrete data on these or it's just a placebo effect that doing the work? From my personal experience, I would say there is little to no benefit to my recovery if I use soft and cushioned shoes instead of standard 30mm or lower running shoes.
If the data exists, Doctors of Running has likely discussed it. I’d dig through past podcasts.
For recovery runs I actually prefer a firmer lower stack shoe, one that I can feel my foot moving in. That way I can work on what may be sore. I actually prefer recovery running Luna Sandals.
In this video I wasn’t recommended any type of shoe specially for any type of running. You can have a high stack daily trainer as well as a low stack one. It’s why I picked the shoes I did in this video as I use all 4 of them as “daily trainers” often.
I know from my own running I do better in lower stack shoes… however I race I higher stack shoes (Vaporfly 3) and have come around to enjoying the newer max stack shoes on occasion.
The message of this video is the importance of mixing up the training stimulus…
@@SagasuRunning Yes, your video was pretty clear and well put. Also re-ignited my doubts on current 'meta'' on running shoes. Thanks for sharing.
Running moves in trends. We are seeing the crest of a wave right now… for max stack everything. There will (inevitably) be a next trend… likely involving less foam and less stack (as I think it will be weight savings and once foams are maxed out they will look elsewhere to reduce weight).
Yeah I had knee replacement in august and having a hell of a time finding shoes. My Brooks ghost which is 12mm heel to toe seem to bother the side of my knee I’m guessing the it band. When I put on my lower stack not very supportive Skechers the discomfort on the side of my knee eases. Tried the brooks max cushion but I Think due to the knee surgery and stack height it may be too much. Same with the Altra forward. It’s been a struggle. Do you suggest a lower stack and mid heel to toe for me. I do have high arch and put my own insoles in
It’s going to be a tough shoe to find but something with a 5-8mm drop and a wider platform underfoot with a firmer more supportive foam that you can drop and insole into…. The Brooks Ghost Max is the first one to come to mind. Beyond that it’s not an area I often look into.
Hi Chris, great job on this video. Insightful to help me understand why my left hip feels so sore. I’m considering to change my daily trainer from Adidas SL to either Boston 12 or Novablast 4. What is your advice? They are same price in HK. Some people asked me to buy both and just rotate them for my easy run.
PS. My long run model is Superblast which works well for me.
Well… if it’s only between those two shoes… I’d say the Boston 12 might be better for you. I know you race in Adidas and if you already have the Superblast… the Novablast 4 is very good but very similar (the SB is better for training).
The Boston is a good all rounder for sure.
I’m actually waiting on the Adidas Supernova Rise… it’s not in Taiwan yet but going be a better daily option from Adidas… plus toe low stack (24mm forefoot). It should be a softer options between a Boston and a Novablast as well.
Thanks Chris! This is super helpful. I’m going to get my Boston 12 then 😊 to rotate with my SL. Keep your great work up! ❤
@@01lsw Good luck. The Boston will feel much more like your Adios Pro 3… but a little more forgiving and a bit heavier. A solid trainer with rods to rotate in with non plated shoes like the SL.
Got it! Appreciate your kind reminder - I won’t throw away my SL after buying Boston 12 😅. Thank you for remembering Pro 3 as my racing shoes. Btw, I will run 2 marathons - Tokyo and Boston. I guess the new pair can cover 2 races instead of buying a new pair for Boston…
@@01lsw Wow, congrats. Those are the next two races I want to do… but I didn’t get my BQ in NYC and the lottery for Tokyo is so random.
Two spring races. I definitely recommend the Boston 12 now. Your winter running isn’t just base… it’s training. The Boston 12 + Superblast will be a great training pair for your spring races!
加油!
Where do you think the Vomero 17 fits? Based on your impressions video, it' almost seems like a hybrid between low stack (semi-traditional geometry) & high-stack (almost 30mm + slight rocker profile)?
It’s right in the middle… it’s neither. Though it runs more like a max stack shoe and prefers easier running. Even the geometry is a bit of a mix. It’s a fun shoe but a bit of an oddball.
personally I would put the Vomero 17 as high stack as like the Novablast it is not a shoe I find overly easy to run in or rather it makes we want to run at an easy pace. Thinking about it the Invincible 1 oddly had some ground feel under my toes so maybe I just struggle in shoes which are sort of bottom heavy as I don't really land there.
The Vomero 17 is definitely bottom heavy. Not like the Zoom Fly 3/4 type of weight… but you definitely notice it. I actually like that feeling in the shoe though and find it helps the shoe run a bit smoother… it balances out the ZoomX, which is really just there for step on plushness and peg savings (a good use of the material for a easy run shoe).
@@SagasuRunning i kind of thought the NB4 was a little bottom heavy as well although just try to balance on it one finger it does seems reasonably well centred. It does look "massive" compared to a Speed 1 just got to hnd right now. Not got my Vomero 17 with but although heavier than the NB4 maybe does not look as bulky. At least slipping on the Invincible 2 the actual fit isn't too wide for me. There is just a lot of rubber "sticking out" !!!
@@TimGrose wat does bottom heavy mean?
Which one is softer and responsive between Ghost Max and Novablast 4?
NB4
@@SagasuRunningthanks
Low stack shoe done right is the NB Rebel v3. Low but still responsive enough to be a fun shoe
I’ve enjoyed the Rebel series in the past… though the V4 seems like it will be a big departure. I spent alot of time in the Rebel v1 and a bit in the v2. Both good shoes.
@@SagasuRunning yeah....newer shoes is getting taller and taller for the better or worse 🤷♂️
@@cgazlan depends on the shoe… I will try the Rebel v4 when it’s out… we shall see where it falls.
You forget about the More v4 with a 34mm stack and it hurts my back
I wasn’t trying to cover ALL toe max stack models, especially given there are SO many of them. The NB foams all see unreasonably soft in 2023… that certainly doesn’t help stability.
@@SagasuRunning I'll agree with that, does the Unstable high stack NB MoreV4 really affects my back pain?
@@edwinpepito1498 Highly likely. The instability is likely forcing your back to compensate… thus creating the problem area. Everyone’s body is different, but hips and back are two areas that become problematic when eh feet are not stable.
Obviously I’m not a PT and can’t say anymore… but I’d look into that.
Same for me MV4, last time I use in a Marathon, my back hurts after the run. But if half marathon I would be fine. Contrary when I use stiffer shoe like Boston series, my pain will transfer to foot ankle after a marathon.
@@emert7403 You may want check other Asics Superblast. It’s firm like the Boston 12 but has not carbon plate/rods so will be much nice on your feet for longer distance… it also is firm enough to give support for those longer efforts.
any suggestion on low stack shoes good for HM or full marathonn?
Not really… I still think the best option for a full/half marathon is the Nike Vaporfly 3. Honestly that shoe runs much lower than it is and can disappear on your foot and feel like a raving flat, especially the Vaporfly 1 or 2.
For the half… there are people that make the Takumi Sen work… but that’s really pushing the shoe beyond what it was intended for. I’ve run 21k in the Adios 8… I imagine it feeling quite nice to race in…
But neither are going to be a better option than the Vaporfly 3. Max stack/plated shoes work for racing… and work very well.
but Vaporfly is a supershoe, its plated and cost 200$. Naah. A day when i'll wake up ready to pay 200$ for a shoe I'll probably go for Superblast. Or 2 pairs of Invincibles (that will be lifelong stock considering their durability).
Once I realized thet Invincible 3s covers 80% of my needs (short, long, slow, moderate) I'm thinking of using them not only for marathon training but also for marathon race. They're great for anything slower than 4'59/km and thats enough for me. (and I paid 90$ for new (not bargain but great price anyway). And finally i rotate them only with Rebel V3 (and one pair of old 1080v10 for cold and bad weather, they dont wanna die but theyre not funny anymore)
Another idea - if someone took Takumi Sen for alf why not try Adios 8 for the full distance?
@Ziggymundus in 2024… very few race in racing flats anymore. I did see the occasional Nike Streakfly or Adidas Adios 8 at the NYC Marathon last year… but they were few.
If you are training in a max cushion shoe like the Invincible… I’d not recommend looking for something low stack to race in. The Superblast would be a much better option if you don’t want to use a plated shoe.
The longest run I’ve personally done in the Adios 8 was 23k… and it was fine… but a vaporfly would have been faster and more protective over that distance.