Worth mentioning especially here, drag coefficients need to be multiplied by frontal area to get the actual drag force. There's also downforce, which the video mentions. Lambos have always had low frontal area, and produce more downforce at (relatively) low speeds for better track performance. A top speed car would only need good downforce at high speeds for a straight line. The Nurburgring times speaks for itself, where even a Huracán Performante beats the Rimac Nevara despite having third of the power.
I noticed in one of your podcasts, where they did a crude CFD study of wheel wakes. Something stood out to me, and I think I may have figured something out. The wheel wells on most cars break up the flow structures on the top half of the wheel, and if you look at the vorticity of that upper wheel wake, it upwashes, like a downforce producing wing. The lower wheel wake downwashes, like a lift producing wing. If you look at the vorticity of this simulation, you can see the upper wheel wake along with the mirror wake blend into the upwash behind the car. IE they're all co-rotating vortices. This means that wheels will almost always produce lift in a street car with standard wheel wells. Because the downforce producing wake is being broken up by the wheel wells, while the lower lift producing wake is unimpeded by any bodywork. If you could flip the situation(breaking up the lower wheel wake while enhancing the upper one), the wheels would produce downforce, and downforce on unsprung mass is worth ~4x what it's worth on the sprung mass.
The Research an Open wheel aerodynamics says that you have co rotating vortices on the top and the bottom of the wheel, both downwashing. The upper Vortex forms Like on a blunt Body, the upper suction Side of the wheel dragging the flow inboard. The lower Vortex forms as a result of the Road contact with the Same Rotation. The high pressure infront of the contact Patch Jets the Stream outboard resulting und the roll up of this Vortex.
@@NoanatorTV They're counter rotating. Upper wake produces upwash, lower wake produces downwash. They cancel each other out, unless there's bodywork influencing the wakes.
@@rolandotillit2867 they are not, If you would actually take 2min to challenge you personal epiphanies its a clear cut case. A Open rotating wheel produces a lot of lift without any Bodywork influencing anything and this has been known since the 50s.
The critical Mach number is the speed at which the venturi effect accelerates the air faster than the sound. Plane wings are designed to increase it because either they would have supersonic airflow causing shockwaves from about mach 0.7 @@hrishikeshaggrawal
I read some where that 3rd gen Trans Am cars, specifically GTA models, were getting drag coefficients as low as .26 and supposedly is still the most aero car GM has ever made.
Regarding end plates, or rather wing tips. Since the wing tip vortices interact with the upper tire wake and the upwash of the diffuser, having downturned(suction side) end plates may help if your objective is to maximize the downforce potential of the upper wheel wake.
Excellent video again! But I have a question. How do you add the drag that are coming from radiators and engine vents to the calculation of drag coefficient? And any tips for the freshman aerospace engineering students? ❤
Historically, people thought the cooling drag created a synergistic effect with other regions, but there are many studies that show that it doesn't. So, you can exclude it and not affect the performance much. Factoring in the cooling drag, you usually add around 30 counts (0.03 for the Drag coefficient). My best tips would be get into the wind tunnel early because you'll learn a lot more by being hands on. You can ask PhD students if you can assist them in their work just so you can learn. (Say you don't want to be on any papers, but just learn about the wind tunnels and instruments through helping out.) Then, start doing CFD early. Don't wait until the second half of your degree. Even now is a good time to start, even if you don't know much, you will learn by doing the tutorials.
Hey Premier! Something I'd love to see is the 3rd Gen Mustang Convertible, since I own one *bias alert* I know it's quite a regular car, but when I look at it I see a little (majestic) brick, and I'd like to see things such as how bad the top to windscreen seal area is with its half inch-ish overhang and how the headlight indentations on the earlier models affect the airflow. And also this video was awesome lol
Could you have a look at the Lamborghini Miura? It was the first modern supercar. Being that it was a mid engined two seat layout sportscar. Not to mention one of the finest looking cars in my opinion. And if you do get a good Diablo model going, it will mean you will have the entire Lamborghini supercar lineup from inception to the modern day done. Showing the evolution of design and understanding within one company.
I can't complain about either. I distinctly remember that my first car back in the day was a 1987 VW Scirocco 16V. The Cd of that car was 0.38 and I'm pretty sure it had lift at speed. I'll take 0.37 on a much wider car (more than offsets height) with downforce - plus, it is a Lamborghini.
Would be cool to see a comparison of the E36 M3, with and without LTW aero (wing and front splitter). No one seems to know if the LTW wing produces much of any downforce, but tons of us E36 guys have them on our cars lol.
I would love to see the aerodynamics of the BMW batmobile, it has that really interesting scoop above the rear windshield that I want to know if it actually works
Thanks a lot for this video. I have some questions: How difficult and time consuming is making a simulation like that in OpenFOAM? Not really beginner-friendly right? And also where do you guys get the 3D models to use in these simulations? Thanks again for all the uploads!
OpenFOAM isn't beginner friendly, so it is difficult (as a side note, we have courses teaching OpenFOAM and we've had really good feedback on them, if you're interested). We usually either buy the models or pay people to make them. Sometimes, we have to modify them if there are differences.
หลายเดือนก่อน
Please make a video trying to find the most aerodynamic offroad car.
Nice!! What models are you using? Looks like URANS to me? Also, does it make sense to run a transition model on cars? My guess would be that it makes very little difference for most cars except for those with wings. You can see that the flow on the aventadors wing separates, which probably would not happen if you have proper transition modelling.
It is IDDES, with an SST K-omega turbulence model. For general simulations, like this, the turbulence model isn't that important. But if you want to get to within one or two percent accuracy, then it is, and K-omega SST is the best at the moment.
I'm a game modder and I found a field named "aero coefficient" in the game I'm modding that I've never seen metioned anywhere but this video. It's obvious that the higher the better because I've tested it but I'd like to know exactly what it is. Do you have a video explaining it and a list of known coefficients? Is there a way to calculate it or at least infere it roughly?
I think it is just a general number the creators made to make it easier for players to understand. It is likely a combination of downforce and drag. I have never come across a widely known number in automotive aero called that.
On these Lamborghinis I assume this doesn’t matter as much but on front engine vehicles, does CFD model the airflow in and out of ducts and out the bottoms of engine bays? I assume the airflow out of the bottom of the engine bay would affect the airflow under the car?
Usually it adds around 30 counts to the drag and doesn't affect the performance in a synergistic way. So, ignoring it doesn't change the results flow physics much.
Very interesting. I bet people that can afford this cars are not watching this. I’d like to see models that people can actually afford. My suggestion - Hyundai i20N
All this is well and good, but I've owned a murcielago and it was a pita to live with and impossible to drive fast whereas any Ferrari that compares to it in terms of price, age, class etc. is the opposite. My point is aerodynamics on paper are a tiny part of the experience of using a vehicle and only one part (you can argue how big that part is) of performance in general. You can make a wedge or whatever shape is 'best' on paper but on a track or road (which the murcielago is created for) the compromises to aero can actually result in real world advantages that outweigh what engineers think is right. Ferrari get this right (and Lamborghini get this wrong) more often. Also, making pretty and functional vehicle designs are what the Italians do best, so much better than the Germans, French, Americans etc.
That's completely true. Lamborghinis always feel like they're trying to kill you. But that is part of the fun I guess. Going more and more plain, like all the way to a 911, doesn't really make you feel much other than boredom. Although, a late 90's boxster is sooo much fun even at low speeds.
@@PremierAerodynamics that's because they're italians, and that's just their accent, fact is that it's a Spanish word ☝️🤓 (Murciélago in Italian is 'pipistrello' 🤣)
Hi guys, I think it would be cool to see the Viper SRT-10 aerodynamics, as it was an extreme sports car of the 2000s
Thanks for the idea! We have it on the list!
@@PremierAerodynamics Amazing!
Worth mentioning especially here, drag coefficients need to be multiplied by frontal area to get the actual drag force. There's also downforce, which the video mentions.
Lambos have always had low frontal area, and produce more downforce at (relatively) low speeds for better track performance. A top speed car would only need good downforce at high speeds for a straight line.
The Nurburgring times speaks for itself, where even a Huracán Performante beats the Rimac Nevara despite having third of the power.
That's a good point. Being so sleek helps reduce the overall drag, as well as move the C.G. lower for handling.
I noticed in one of your podcasts, where they did a crude CFD study of wheel wakes. Something stood out to me, and I think I may have figured something out. The wheel wells on most cars break up the flow structures on the top half of the wheel, and if you look at the vorticity of that upper wheel wake, it upwashes, like a downforce producing wing. The lower wheel wake downwashes, like a lift producing wing. If you look at the vorticity of this simulation, you can see the upper wheel wake along with the mirror wake blend into the upwash behind the car. IE they're all co-rotating vortices.
This means that wheels will almost always produce lift in a street car with standard wheel wells. Because the downforce producing wake is being broken up by the wheel wells, while the lower lift producing wake is unimpeded by any bodywork. If you could flip the situation(breaking up the lower wheel wake while enhancing the upper one), the wheels would produce downforce, and downforce on unsprung mass is worth ~4x what it's worth on the sprung mass.
The Research an Open wheel aerodynamics says that you have co rotating vortices on the top and the bottom of the wheel, both downwashing. The upper Vortex forms Like on a blunt Body, the upper suction Side of the wheel dragging the flow inboard. The lower Vortex forms as a result of the Road contact with the Same Rotation. The high pressure infront of the contact Patch Jets the Stream outboard resulting und the roll up of this Vortex.
@@NoanatorTV They're counter rotating. Upper wake produces upwash, lower wake produces downwash. They cancel each other out, unless there's bodywork influencing the wakes.
@@rolandotillit2867 they are not, If you would actually take 2min to challenge you personal epiphanies its a clear cut case. A Open rotating wheel produces a lot of lift without any Bodywork influencing anything and this has been known since the 50s.
Just drive the car lads, my god
@@Spherz As an aerodynamicist whose job it is to make cars go faster, I cannot!
Now compare second gen Prius with Pagani Zonda R
Edit: i forgot to mention at what speed
*At 650kph*
Camry v Accord
Lol, that would be interesting to see if it exceeds the critical mach number.
@@PremierAerodynamics 650 kmph is right above half the speed of sound at 617kmph
The critical Mach number is the speed at which the venturi effect accelerates the air faster than the sound. Plane wings are designed to increase it because either they would have supersonic airflow causing shockwaves from about mach 0.7 @@hrishikeshaggrawal
Do AMG One when the aero On and Off or Jesko absolute vs regular
Thanks for the idea! We have them on the list!
I read some where that 3rd gen Trans Am cars, specifically GTA models, were getting drag coefficients as low as .26 and supposedly is still the most aero car GM has ever made.
Thanks for the idea! We have the trans am on the list.
you should try the murci with the low drag spoiler
Thanks for the idea! We'll put on the list for the future.
@@PremierAerodynamics also maybe an f1 car
You should do thrust ssc next
Thanks for the idea!
Honestly I like that the SV doesn't have m plates. It's a small trade off for better looks , atleast to me
Each to their own.
They’re end plates, not m plates 😛
Regarding end plates, or rather wing tips. Since the wing tip vortices interact with the upper tire wake and the upwash of the diffuser, having downturned(suction side) end plates may help if your objective is to maximize the downforce potential of the upper wheel wake.
That's a good point. So, you need to make sure the wing is extreme enough to make the vortices hit the tire wakes.
Excellent video again! But I have a question. How do you add the drag that are coming from radiators and engine vents to the calculation of drag coefficient? And any tips for the freshman aerospace engineering students? ❤
Historically, people thought the cooling drag created a synergistic effect with other regions, but there are many studies that show that it doesn't. So, you can exclude it and not affect the performance much. Factoring in the cooling drag, you usually add around 30 counts (0.03 for the Drag coefficient).
My best tips would be get into the wind tunnel early because you'll learn a lot more by being hands on. You can ask PhD students if you can assist them in their work just so you can learn. (Say you don't want to be on any papers, but just learn about the wind tunnels and instruments through helping out.)
Then, start doing CFD early. Don't wait until the second half of your degree. Even now is a good time to start, even if you don't know much, you will learn by doing the tutorials.
@@PremierAerodynamics Thank you so much! I hope you get the appreciation you deserve.
Hey Premier! Something I'd love to see is the 3rd Gen Mustang Convertible, since I own one *bias alert* I know it's quite a regular car, but when I look at it I see a little (majestic) brick, and I'd like to see things such as how bad the top to windscreen seal area is with its half inch-ish overhang and how the headlight indentations on the earlier models affect the airflow.
And also this video was awesome lol
Thanks for the idea! We'll see if we can get a good model of it.
Could you have a look at the Lamborghini Miura?
It was the first modern supercar. Being that it was a mid engined two seat layout sportscar. Not to mention one of the finest looking cars in my opinion. And if you do get a good Diablo model going, it will mean you will have the entire Lamborghini supercar lineup from inception to the modern day done. Showing the evolution of design and understanding within one company.
Thanks for the idea! We have the Miura on the list.
I can't complain about either. I distinctly remember that my first car back in the day was a 1987 VW Scirocco 16V. The Cd of that car was 0.38 and I'm pretty sure it had lift at speed. I'll take 0.37 on a much wider car (more than offsets height) with downforce - plus, it is a Lamborghini.
I don't know, I think you might get more heads turning with a Scirocco :).
Amazing video! I'd love to see an episode on the McLaren speedtail if you haven't done one already
Thanks for the idea!
Would love to see this comparo of regular vs GT4 version of the Porsche Cayman please
Thanks for the idea! We have the Cayman on the list!
It would be fun to see a comparison between the Chrion 300+ and the Jesko Absolute
Thanks for the idea! We have both of them on the list!
Would be cool to see a comparison of the E36 M3, with and without LTW aero (wing and front splitter).
No one seems to know if the LTW wing produces much of any downforce, but tons of us E36 guys have them on our cars lol.
Thanks for the ideas!
Would love to see a video comparing the pre and post update Tesla Model 3. What they have done to improve an already slippery car.
Thanks for the idea! I haven't been keeping up with the Model 3 updates. Thanks!
it would be interesting to see something from Vision GT like the SRT Tomahawk X from Gran Turismo, or the Redbull X2010
Thanks for the ideas!
I would love to see the aerodynamics of the BMW batmobile, it has that really interesting scoop above the rear windshield that I want to know if it actually works
Thanks for the idea!
Thanks a lot for this video. I have some questions:
How difficult and time consuming is making a simulation like that in OpenFOAM? Not really beginner-friendly right? And also where do you guys get the 3D models to use in these simulations? Thanks again for all the uploads!
OpenFOAM isn't beginner friendly, so it is difficult (as a side note, we have courses teaching OpenFOAM and we've had really good feedback on them, if you're interested).
We usually either buy the models or pay people to make them. Sometimes, we have to modify them if there are differences.
Please make a video trying to find the most aerodynamic offroad car.
Probably something like the Local Motors Rally Fighter.
Thanks for the idea!
Try the Peugeot 9x8 next, the wingless hypercar
Thanks for the idea!
can you do the porsche 908 LH next ?
Great video btw
👍
Thanks for the idea!
please make a video about the clr gtr and how did it fly (or the porsche 911 gt1’98)
Air got underneath
They accidentally put Red Bull in the tank instead of petrol.
It'll be great with other GT1's of the era and some prototypes too. I'd like to see how older group C cars compare to them too.
Thanks for the idea! We have it on the list!
apollo project evo would be interesting to see
Thanks for the idea! The Apollo is on the list!
Nice!! What models are you using? Looks like URANS to me?
Also, does it make sense to run a transition model on cars? My guess would be that it makes very little difference for most cars except for those with wings. You can see that the flow on the aventadors wing separates, which probably would not happen if you have proper transition modelling.
It is IDDES, with an SST K-omega turbulence model. For general simulations, like this, the turbulence model isn't that important. But if you want to get to within one or two percent accuracy, then it is, and K-omega SST is the best at the moment.
Would be interesting to see cybartruck in test because other tesla cars are pretty slick and aero but not this i guess😅
Thanks for the idea!
We need to see the Lexus LFA aerodynamics.
I want to see if is as aerodynamic as it sounds
Thanks for the idea!
Probably not!
Would be great if you could do one about the Mclaren 720S EVO GT3 (racecar)
Thanks for the idea!
It might be a little bit extra work but could you also add a L/D ratio ranking too?
Thanks for the idea! We're going to add the downforce as well.
May I request Ford Probe Mk1 and Mk2 comparison. They seem to be pretty low drag
Thanks for the idea!
I'm a game modder and I found a field named "aero coefficient" in the game I'm modding that I've never seen metioned anywhere but this video. It's obvious that the higher the better because I've tested it but I'd like to know exactly what it is. Do you have a video explaining it and a list of known coefficients? Is there a way to calculate it or at least infere it roughly?
I think it is just a general number the creators made to make it easier for players to understand. It is likely a combination of downforce and drag. I have never come across a widely known number in automotive aero called that.
I want to see the hennessey venom f5's and the ssc tuatara's aerodynamics
Thanks for the ideas! We have the venom on the list!
How do you make non cad files work (like from blender) ?
Can you do an 1991 nsx, pls? I'd also love a compatison of the 1991-2001 x 2002-2005 and 2002-2005 Type R
Thanks for the idea! We have the NSX on the list.
@@PremierAerodynamics cool!
can you try this with the ford GT40 mk1? this car in gran turismo sport has a huge top speed
Thanks for the idea! We have it on the list!
This seems to just be calculating the "outer" Aero, what about all the Tunnels and ducts inside the car the redirect the air?
That is the cooling flow and that isn't factored in here.
How is the Charger Daytona cx 0.34 while in its video was 0.70?
We made a mistake with the geometry on that one. We did a new video with the correct geometry here: th-cam.com/video/UcVzkywjvOs/w-d-xo.html
On these Lamborghinis I assume this doesn’t matter as much but on front engine vehicles, does CFD model the airflow in and out of ducts and out the bottoms of engine bays? I assume the airflow out of the bottom of the engine bay would affect the airflow under the car?
Usually it adds around 30 counts to the drag and doesn't affect the performance in a synergistic way. So, ignoring it doesn't change the results flow physics much.
@@PremierAerodynamics ah cool! Thank you I’ve been wondering about that for a while
Very interesting. I bet people that can afford this cars are not watching this. I’d like to see models that people can actually afford. My suggestion - Hyundai i20N
It’s sometimes exciting to dream😎
Thanks for the idea! we have the Audi TT next week, just fyi.
What do you mean by the murcielago being old?
The Aventador is new and the Murcielago is old.
what software do you use
Openfoam amigo
I'd love to see the Diablo
Thanks, we do too!
Can you do the Koenigsegg Agera generations, pls?
Thanks for the idea! We have it on the list!
@@PremierAerodynamics
Thanks, too
Revuelto pls
Thanks for the idea! We'll put it on the list!
All this is well and good, but I've owned a murcielago and it was a pita to live with and impossible to drive fast whereas any Ferrari that compares to it in terms of price, age, class etc. is the opposite.
My point is aerodynamics on paper are a tiny part of the experience of using a vehicle and only one part (you can argue how big that part is) of performance in general.
You can make a wedge or whatever shape is 'best' on paper but on a track or road (which the murcielago is created for) the compromises to aero can actually result in real world advantages that outweigh what engineers think is right.
Ferrari get this right (and Lamborghini get this wrong) more often.
Also, making pretty and functional vehicle designs are what the Italians do best, so much better than the Germans, French, Americans etc.
That's completely true. Lamborghinis always feel like they're trying to kill you. But that is part of the fun I guess. Going more and more plain, like all the way to a 911, doesn't really make you feel much other than boredom.
Although, a late 90's boxster is sooo much fun even at low speeds.
2nd get Viper GTS vs 5th gen Viper GTS!!!!... My money is on the 2nd gen
Thanks for the idea!
finally no ai crap
Thanks!
I was actually born in a test tube.
Murciélago is the spanish word for bat so no italian pronunciation on the 'c' lol😂
But Lamborghini pronounces it with the c.
@@PremierAerodynamics that's because they're italians, and that's just their accent, fact is that it's a Spanish word
☝️🤓
(Murciélago in Italian is 'pipistrello' 🤣)
Fools buying Revuelto and other shits when they could have a Murci, maybe even manual ones
Lol
New vid
You know it!
Not very old !
Hehe first
Lol! Hope you liked it!
@@PremierAerodynamics I think it would be pretty cool to see the aerodynamics of lemons car like the clr(the flying one )