Who Needs Jimmy Butler the Most? With Chris Mannix | The Bill Simmons Podcast
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ธ.ค. 2024
- The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Mannix to discuss the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and boxing.
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Is there a bigger hater of Nikola Jokić than Chris Mannix?
Even Perkins has been mild on his takes recently.
What specifically did he say that was wrong or hateful?
@@HerbHerman-le5uxHe had the audacity to mention jokers bad defense....that bastard
@@HerbHerman-le5ux calling his defense terrible at this point is just dumb
@@joeb588 his defense isn’t terrible but I do think the advanced stats don’t provide entire picture either. You gotta factor in some degree of eye test, I mean we are all humans. It’s how we perceive “reality.” He gets his hands in passing lanes really well, but he has trouble getting back in transition which adv. stats don’t much weight on. Nuggets as a team have allowed highest opp. FG % within 5 feet of basket, towards bottom of league in boxouts, third most points against in paint, and give up third most PPP in transition in the league. You can pick and choose stats all day which make it more difficult to use solely adv stats for arguments. He’s an awesome player but it is fair to talk about his defense without being labeled a “hater”
@@joeb588it is, I e made 💰 taking his opposing centers overs in a sgp of points & rebs - sabonis lit him up Lgame, now 2b fair he dies expend ALOT of energy on D bcuz the roster has been depleted over the years
Chris Mannix never fails to disappoint! What a Jokic hater
saying Jokic is terrible defensively instantly loses all credibility.
Porter for Jimmy is objectively insane
Overall a lateral move in the present. Net negative long term.
I could see it if the nuggets feel like their window is closing in the next two years. Otherwise its pretty insane
@@kevink1575 ??? Jimmy is legit a top 15 player, with Jokic top 10
MPJ's stats are massively inflated by playing with Jok.
Garland for Jimmy is way worse. Garland’s numbers would be insane if Mitchell didn’t eat into his production
Throw in jontays jail jammies
Bill is so scared of Zombie Heat lol
He's dying to get Butler off that team and to the West
@@cptsketch13 Seriously. I'm surprised we haven't seen Conspiracy Bill argue that Butler is somehow Andrew Toney's son
And rightly so. Over the last five years its been Boston with the most playoff wins followed by the Heat.
@@michaelahurt🤣🤣
Naw heat are 🗑️ this year , will get gentlemen's swept again if they play the celts 😂
NBA pod request: please bring on the Thinking Basketball guys. They'll actually have great analysis and won't say dumb things like "Jokic has terrible defense" with no context or analytics to support the claim.
Wrote about his defensive deficiencies in SI last week!
@@SIChrisMannix read the article. No mention of how Jokic calls out the opposing teams plays, communicates on defense, is always in the right position, gets rebounds, and doesn’t foul leading to easy FTs.
Of course he’s not an athletic defender - but there’s more to defense.
Also, when he’s your team’s entire offense - it’s on the GM and Coach to put a defensive team around him.
@@SIChrisMannix still sore he made you look bad in 2023?
I really don't think that their thing fits with the Ringer. Kind of like mixing oil with water. The Ringer comes from the Sports Radio Lineage. Thinking Basketball comes from the Internet Forum Lineage.
Also, they will say dumb things too. They'll just dress it up in enough jargon and cherry-picked stats to trick people.
Gotta sprinkle in some Cleveland disrespect no matter the topic
Damn, I didn’t realize Chris Mannix was this dense.
Same lol this is some clownish stuff
@@nocturne311 listen to him on dp some time lol
"Jokic's defense is terrible"? I'm sorry, I think you mean "your 'analysis' is terrible."
It's true, Jokic is down from the last three years... but for three years he was first in defensive box plus/minus and top ten in defensive win shares. (Two times, he was first in DBPM and second in DWS.) Those are All Defensive, DPOY type numbers. He's not there this year, which combined with giving up KCP for nothing and Gordon being injured is why the Nuggets' defense is ghastly instead of weak. Nonetheless, Jokic himself remains solidly a plus, and in fact, he's still leading the Nuggets in both categories for the seventh year in a row.
Want to whinge about advanced stats even though they're better than the box score at both predicting outcomes and matching up with the precious eye test? In the box score, Jokic is seventh in the NBA in steals. Not seventh among centers (he's first, obvs), not seventh among frontcourt players, seventh *overall*.
Jokic almost wholly responsible for organizing the Nuggets on defense, performing the same herding cats role Draymond Green has for Golden State.
And obviously to say he's bad at "defense" you have to just dismiss defensive rebounding entirely.
If you can't see what Jokic does on the defensive end, that's you failing to understand the game, not him failing to elevate the team on both ends.
@@MoogleEmpMog I’m a nuggets fan but stop. Jokic half the times doesn’t try on defense
Nuggets lost to the wolves because of Jokics defense. The media gave him a pass as always.
@@jc0257 For the sake of argument, let's say this were true.
Why do YOU think Jokic shows up year after year near the top of lists that are otherwise populated exclusively by players who are considered great defenders?
If this were a fluky thing, you could say it's low sample size and relatively noisy stats. But this has been consistent for half a decade, and Jokic plays a ton of games every year so the sample size is one of the largest in the NBA. All of these metrics consider him not just a good defender but a great one.
If Jokic scored really well in one metric but was bad in the others, you could say it was some odd flaw in that metric. But he's been excellent defensively by every publicly available metric I can find.
If Defensive Box Plus/Minus, Defensive Win Shares, and Defensive Rating were throwing up odd results left and right, then you could say they're just bad stats. But everyone else on these lists is somebody who'd immediately leap to your mind as a great defender. Either someone rightly lauded as a two-way superstar (Giannis, AD, Jason Tatum) or someone who reaches star level because of their defense (Rudy Gobert, Evan Mobley, Bam Adebayo, Draymond Green) or a high-level defensive role player (Alex Caruso, Matisse Thybulle, Brook Lopez).
Is there literally no point at which the evidence could become so overwhelming that you'd say "Maybe this dude who is famous for having one of the highest basketball IQs ever knows more about what he's doing than I do?"
I think you can make an argument that Jokic shouldn't be in the DPOY conversation most years because the *way* he plays defense is more like a guard than a traditional center, and that limits the degree to which he can raise a team's defensive floor.
I don't understand how any serious person can make a coherent argument that he's not at worst a *good* defender, though.
@@MoogleEmpMog It's a double standard. People don't think a center is a good defender unless he is a traditional shot blocker. But then they also call Rudy Gobert overrated. And when Dwight was the best center in Basketball, they griped that he didn't have a post game like Shaq. All to serve the interests of their guy, whether it's Lebron or Embiid.
Just discovered your channel. Great stuff.
You’re the best I’ve heard since Mike Francesa.
who, me?
OKC makes sense. His timeline on big money matches the young guys. They do need some edge if they are to win the championship this year.
@@davincidribbler7427 dort . Wallace Joe for jimmy
Horrible take by mannix on MPJ. Also Jimmy Butler to Houston makes no sense. Bill usually wears a great historian hat but neither of these guys know much at all about actually playing ball or assembling talent that can win together.
@JamesWill-t8p love the troll. I guess you never played ball either 🤣
I love MPJ's game. At 26, I'd want him if I was Miami.
@@SIChrisMannix I like his game too but it’s really hard to overstate how much the Joker allows him to operate on offense. Such a gravitational force for the defense. A guy like MPJ would have a 20% lower net rating on a mediocre team.
@@vegasbound213 Jimmy to Houston makes perfect sense. They need a go to clutch scorer if they want to win right now and Jimmy also can play consistent great defense, which is needed in Ime’s system.
@@Lampsadviceyou may be right but he’s not interested in living there. Rockets have youth, athleticism, etc. I just think it’s a stretch to commit all that money to JB at this age. If he wants a ring now Houston makes no sense.
Jokic is 4th in steals. Chris Mannix is still sour from Nuggets fans trolling him for 2 years straight 😂
Butler for Murray actually sounds better than Butler-MPJ, if Jamal's contract wasn't extended. Butler plays bigger than his size but they lose some flexibility with their line-ups and he doesn't improve their three-point shooting. He makes sense as an additional shot creator during crunch time but IMHO they would be better off trading away some of their younger guys for 3-and-D veterans or shop for overseas or G-League guys to improve at the fringes.
Butler to Houston looks to be a good fit but it depends on what Houston wants to do and which veteran to move out of - Brooks or VanVleet. It would also depend on what kind of contract Jimmy would agree to post-trade.
So, you want Golden State to essentially gut their entire team to bring Butler in and then....what....?
Lol. I was thinking that. They only real assests they have is Kuminga, Podz, and Wiggins and you'd be trading two of them for an almost 36, pending free agent. I don't think Moody has much value/garners much interest.
@@missioncodez and then have 2 top 10 players and make one more run with curry for another ring
It’s one more shot for Curry’s sake, the current roster is going nowhere
You can get into Cam Johnson w/out trading MPJ though..
Cam Johnson has likely incentives in his contract, so his cap number is not 22 million. It is 27 million.
"All the things MPJ can do" you mean the one thing he does?
Cam Johnson is the guy in Denver
Bingo. Great 3pt shooter, god defender, knows how to be 3-4th option. Of course you lose the rebounding of Mike and the size of Frontline isn't as big.
I was hoping Orlando would get him.
How do you love “everything” MPJ can do?? You mean shoot 3s? Lol
Fax😅
@@MarcFerrer-n3h I guess he means shooting 3s from everywhere from behind the arch lol
Don’t know who this guy is but it would legitimately be hard to name a more one dimensional player in the league lmao
F it, send Jimmy to Cleveland but CLE gets to keep everyone else
Saying jokic is terrible on defense tells me you don’t watch him enough
Dennis schroeder can be traded again in aggregate with other players 60 days from when his last trade date just became official.
How do these guys not know the nba trade rules??
The murray extension was strange they extended him while he still wasnt playing well.. As for embiid he might get back to be ok maybe its next year wouldnt write it off yet and everyone does the extension embiid when healthy is great can he then ok..
All this praise for what Butler brings is fine, but will he bring it? Jimmy plays hard when he wants to. And is Denver willing to pay Jimmy 50mm per year?
They are willing to pay Murray and MPJ, and Butler is WAY better.
@@mookz34I love Jimmy, but he's going to be 36 before next season. He's been injury prone the past few years. I don't think he's suddenly going to get healthier at 36.
@@MrOctober44he only roll his ankle he don’t really have major injuries
@@Blazenetwork1990he's missed about 70 games since 2021. Those smaller injuries become more frequent and longer to heal from the older a player gets
Butler just wants to win, and at least you know with him hes gonna give 110% ever second hes on the court come playoff time. i think hes just mastered the regular season coast to make sure hes good to go for the playoffs
Not really sure I get why any one of these teams that have a solid youth movement who play hard and are frankly a few years away from really contending would want a 35 year old Jimmy Butler who will want an extension, it feels like this is just speculation for the sake of speculation.
Wasn’t Tyson generational before Usyk? And Wilder before them? And Anthony too?
Love mannix, great pod!
@@nicholasbird6299 he’s terrible
@@nicholasbird6299 he’s terrible
@@vidalgutierrez1736you’re terrible
Why does Bill keep saying Houston? If he doesn’t fit the Heat’s timeline, how in the world does he fit the Rockets?
really missing Kevin O'Connor....
He has his own pod now with yahoo u can follow him there
KOC is baseline bad, just like Justin Verrier and half the guys at the Ringer. I can only stand Bill and House, Jalen and Verno, Woz and Rob, and sometimes Russillo.
Fawth Quatah!
@17:56 come on…
Love the pod normally but I can’t stand mannix. Truly awful
@@Jacob23615 totally agree, what a awful take on MPJ
i've never seen what he looks like and he looks like one of my cool cousins
Hmmmm. I've always liked him. Not seeing anything there.
He’s Botarded.
@@AB-sw4kb id definitely smoke some regg with him before thanksgiving dinner.
Heat fan here. You can have Herro. He doesnt pass. He always wants thr last shot. He stunk vs Detroit snd had no business taking the last shot. Jimmy was in fire. I wish the Heat would trade Herro
Jesus is the way the truth and the life love one another pray for one another Jesus Loves you🙏🙏🙏❤❤❤
There are two guys (Levert, Jerome) on the Cavs bench having as good of a season as Prichard.
Pritchard has the 2nd most made 3pt shots in the league this year as a bench player. Teams are shifting their defense when he comes into the game so he doesn't get end-of-quarter shots off. Pritchard is averaging more RPG than both of them despite being 4-5" shorter than them. Both of those guys have slightly higher assists per game and slightly higher shooting percentages, but I don't know if any teams take them above Pritchard given the chance.
Pritchard is a hell of a player , great value for what C's are paying him
Only a Cavs fan could actually think that
If youre going to go by feelings and not have any numbers to back it up, just get Jussie Perkins. Lazy, narrative led analysis at its finest.
Id like to see wilder Joshua
Nuggets send mpj for simmons
Rockets should go for derozan tbh
Grizzlies is the best and only spot.
jimmy to phoenix
Bill u don’t know if the heat not going to beat no team in the playoffs yall said the same thing in 22 and 23
Why is Porter Jr the problem? I get that he ain’t a top 20 player but he’s good? Plus they are not getting any star for him.
His contract. Teams can't contend with players who don't perform to their contract. Jamal and MPJ are killing the Nuggets if they don't play up to their cap hits. But for the same reason, they are unmovable, just like Zach Lavine.
The Warriors, Nuggets or Grizzlies, Rockets are good fit for Bulter
Okc would be a great fit
My only problem with butler going to Houston is who we have to give up and also we wouldn’t be a contender this year with him anyways. He’d make us tough to beat but we have no chance at beating the best with him
@@bcs259 Yeah, the Rockets are not Jimmy Butler away from a chip. Better to wait and see how their guys develop, and how Butler regresses.
Id trade porter in a minute if I were denver. Idk if its just me, but every time I watch Denver, Porter sucks. Maybe its bad luck on my part when I watch, but he misses 5 in a row and cant defend at all when I do tune in. And I also don't have a masters in basketball, but it seems like every shot he is moving during his shot to one side. He cant ever seem to take a balanced, solid form shot. IDK. I don't think he is worth his contract at all. Id love Jimmy on the team or Cam Johnson.
It's his contract, for sure. I'd love to have Zach Lavine on my team, if his contract was half of what it is. MPJ is killing the Nuggets cap by not playing up to his contract. Same with Murray. Teams can't contend unless their players play up to their contracts.
@shorewall murray just seems out of shape man. He is moving slow, looks labored and low energy. The talent is still there and it shows, but its the consistently playing to that ceiling thats a problem. Mpj just jas never appealed to me. I think people see a 6'10 guy who can shoot and think oh thats worth 1/5 of our salary cap.... no dude it isnt. Nobody is going to be durant, stop. People do the exact same thing with height for centers. No man, most of the time 7'5 people are literal trees who cant even play basketball, theyre just tall. You wont get a Wemby every year. Sorry, rant over. I just want MPJ out
2022 is 2022.
2024 is a completely different team. And the entire league is different. Cannot stand when "pro analysts" pin their takes on the past. Which is not a predictor of the future. Most definitely that far of the past.
Gsw could of got Lauri Markenn for picks and Brandon they wouldn't give up Brandon now its Brandon for butler.. For real?
Is this guy a mouthpiece for some lobbyist agent or GM? Is this ATN News?
Why is Chris Mannix ever talking about basketball (with Bill Simmons no less), he only follows boxing and even that does subpar
LOL who on Earth would ever trade for Naji? He would get owned on a high school court. How is he even in the NBA?
What timeline? 😂 if they got a young good player then Bam would be too old.. there is no time line to have a time line you need one of those all time great players with none on your roster what the f timeline are you talking about
All of the Jimmy teams y’all named makes no sense
Houston doesn’t want Jimmy
Get out of here with that
Trading for MPJ who’s really just a overpaid shooter would be a terrible trade for the Heat lol
@@ethermac9015 lol 🤣 totally agree, he noth the good beside shooting
Yeah. You have Hero and to a lesser extent Robinson. He seems redundant
The last years of a player like Butler ain't gonna be pretty for anyone. The only good scenario would be him in a young tanking team, so some of his character get into the youngsters. I don't want to see Kobe last years redux, thanks.
Only the Warriors or the Lakers imo
@patrickhanlon2325 😆. Butler does not fit with Bron and AD on the same team. No spacing at all
@pinbarbecue1100 bron and ad don't have long have long left. They need to either go for it now or rebuild. Jimmy isn't a great fit but he could be enough to make them a real contender
The fit doesn't work with the Lakers. And simply sending Gab back and filler doesn't work either😅 they gonna want picks and young guys!
Someone finally pointed bout Jokic defence on Bill' pod.
Jokic is having insane offensive season but on defence he is a cone this year
Jokic averages more steals, defensive rebounds and deflections than Giannis though
Looking for good defense in the nba is like looking for nobility in Capitol Hill, it’s whatever you can talk yourself into
@@mbelma6329 It is a layup line for aggressive bigs when Jokić is in the paint.
@@brettdavis5873 Did you watch the game last night?
That’s just not true tho
Chris couldn't be more wrong everytime
Mannix is just wrong - this is Jokic's best defensive season - his hands have never been better and he is our defensive rebounding
Except everyone can score on him at the rim 😂 the Mavs dropped 60 points on his head in the paint 😂
@Joeshiesty286 That's not how he plays defense though. He plays defense by trying to swipe at the ball and swing down where most bigs play bigger. His defense has been better it's just not normal big man defense. He's like top five and steals per game That's what he does he gets in passing lanes. He's still a road cone at the rim no question
@@Joeshiesty286 Yeah, I guess he should foul out of games going for blocks when he is the team's only offense, and primary defensive rebounder.
Fact is, he is so good on offense and Rebounding that his defense doesn't matter. I know you have trouble understanding that, but it is true. Same with Magic Johnson, who wasn't a good defender either. But they both score and facilitate the entire offense, so they bring so much to the team that griping about their defense is weak sauce.
Should go back to the bulls
How anyone can claim jokic is a good defender is just beyond me. Watch the games and the truth is evident. He is, without a doubt, the worse rim defender at center position in my lifetime. Cmon Bill just accept he’s a flawed player.
The dude barely plays. Why would you want him
Now look at his playoff availability...i'll wait
Bill is so dumb GSW can still put dennis in a salary trade why does this man get to run a podcast.. f it annoys me dont be nice call him out for not knowing his one job
Please never have this guy on again. Read the comments everyone hates this dude
Jimmy is going nowhere. He is staying put. New cap rules will kill all deals. These takes are all pointless
MPJ seems like a guy who could have career resurgence and make a couple all-star teams
He's talented, it's just his health.
I could see it. I'd give it maybe 7% chance.
He's the third option, unless AG goes for 25, then he's 4th. He'd have to move to another team for this to happen.
If there s a team that the Heat are not afraid of… it s Boston !
Also, the chance of KP, Horford and/or Holiday being injured is quite high. If the Celtics miss 2 out of these 3 players, the opportunity to beat is there for a few teams in the east
Celtics beat heat 4-0 or 4-1
knicks plz get jimmy
Jimmy on the bucks could get very interesting. Dame for hero and Jimmy.. or Just Jimmy and keep Dame. Freak Himmy and Dame is some trio
Mannix is trash. See how amusing it is when PHX gets it done
Why does Jimmy have any trade value? Last year of his contract so you have to pay him and he doesn't try for the majority of the season. Doesn't shoot 3's well, doesn't defend, and he's 35, idk where the value is.
Jimmy has done a lot that’s why his trade value is so high see what yall need to understand Jimmy has had to wait for the last 6 years for both herro and bam to take a leap he don’t have a second star to help take the load off him Pat hasn’t did nothing to better the team around him
doesnt defend is a reach, he's at least average and when it comes to crunch time hes great.
Sit jokic with a phantom injury and tank for one season. Get one of those studs in the draft or use that as a trade chip. I know this will be an unpopular opinion but it could possibly give Jokic a mini Dynasty
He'll never agree to it.
Man every projected stood isn’t a stood. There’s no one player outside the top 10 would warrant a really valuable trade piece. Plus you still gotta match salaries
A generation brought up on quitting and tanking think that everyone has the same quitter mentality. All for some snot nosed high school kid who is usually a one trick pony? Delusional at best.
Heat competitive with Cleveland is a joke. Heat are done kids. Mannix with another terrible take
LMAO at Bill trying to defend Jokers defense. Joker is great but come on is he really immune to any criticism? He is playing 38 minutes a game like any other superstar... That's the excuse? What about the last year in the playoffs when his defense in the lane was so bad that it lead to ppl calling Ant mj 2.0. haven't heard any of that talk after the Denver series.