Reviewing The Tree Of Life Bible: Interview With Mark Ward
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2023
- The TLV or Tree of Life Version, is a Bible translation produced by the Messianic Jewish community. The TLV aims to restore Jewish names, themes, and cultures into an English Bible. Most Western Bible translations transliterate Hebrew words and themes into English in a way that would make sense to Western readers. However, many in the messianic movement believe these transliterations actually remove our historic connection to the Jewish people.
Today, scholar Mark Ward (remember him from our episode on the KJV only controversy?) joins us to discuss translation and transliteration as it pertains to most modern translations, including (and especially) the TLV. You won’t want to miss!
In response, you can watch Dr. Jeffrey Seif's defense of the TLV Bible here: th-cam.com/users/live9Q4UGF7_O5A
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Remnant and Mark Ward, 2 of my favourite podcasts coming together 🔥
Good Podcast.
I am a Messianic Jew, born and raised. Something to consider: TLV is to bring the NT back to the Jewish foundation of the Christian Faith. Also using Hebrew language connects you back to the Biblical language. Also the Hebrew language is very much connected to the Jewish People and the Land. Also Hebrew is a Verb based language meaning each noun is derived from a Verb. The name Jesus is a transliteration but Yeshua means Salvation and if you read the Hebrew scriptures you can find the noun and verb yeshua used all over. Also in Hebraic though to Hear means to hear and understand through your actions. You don't hear unless you act.
Yes, the Hebrew language is so very rich in meaning and can be quite subtle in expressing it.
Thanks for the information, I have been enjoying on the app TLV as well. While I don't speak Hebrew, I am looking to learn it :) I noticed their is glossary on the app and I saw Yeshua meaning salvation.
This Bible helped me understand when I first started reading. I appreciate the ones that translated the TLV so others like myself could enjoy reading the Bible. ❤
The Tree of Life is actually my favorite translation. The Hebrew transliterations do nothing to upset the true meaning of the New Testament passages.
agree.
When you say Hebrew transliterations do not upset true meaning of NT passages, what do you mean?
Also my fav!
I love my TLV. It helped bring me to God. By choice and research I chose the TLV.
I'm a Boomer. I grew up with KJV, NASB, NIV, and the Living paraphrase. In the last 5-10 years I've enjoyed using the TLV Bible. I'm a bit mystified by your guest. Who's forcing you to use these terms from the TLV? Answer. Nobody. These terms in the TLV are just to help catch the Jewish flavor and roots of our faith. To call TLV sectarian seems harsh to me. There's no TLV group saying "You have to use our terms."
My thoughts exactly
My thoughts exactly, well said
@J JThat comes from just learning the text on your own. The legalism people think is happening is from the typical Christian view. If you do a deep dive, these were kept until many Jews were killed and anyone who wanted to follow God. It’s not legalism, it’s faith and joy enjoying them with our Lord. Also God has been leading many to this way, because he’s fixing things, and I personally see many being awakened to this understanding from a long time ago. When I asked God to mold me and help me unlearn so I can learn, he changed what I ate, what I celebrated, and recently he led me back to Deuteronomy 16. He wants us to enjoy the feats days with him. If they are encouraging you there should be nothing wrong with that. I always wonder why people hearing a wonderful encouragement about celebrating the feast days seems wrong or dangerous or putting ourselves back in bondage, but my sibling I’ve learned that that mindset and reaction is from not understanding the feast days and brainwashing of pastors over and over telling you you don’t have to or need to, the law was fulfilled in Yeshua. It was but my friend I encourage you to look into that verse as well. You’ll see if you ask God.
But Christianity isn't JUST Jewish, it has roots in *Hellenized* Judaism. The New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew, so inserting random Hebrew words into it is not actually helpful for demonstrating its roots. Maybe we should be transliterating Septuagint words in the Old Testament instead if anything.
@Servant_of_Yeshua96 There's nothing wrong with them having their own conscience and convictions, but it is just a difference of opinions. No one is right or wrong, nor are people who follow the law better or worse than those who don't. But if your relationship with God is blessed because of it, then that's okay. But to say that others would benefit from looking into the scriptures deeper, is kinda disrespectful to their relationship with God, what if their relationship with God is blessed by not participating in feasts? Because it's possible.
Yes! I love Mark. So glad you guys got to have him on this episode.
Interesting discussion. One example I can think of where a Hebrew transliteration makes more sense than a literal English translation from the Greek is in John 10:22. "Feast of Dedication" has no meaning to a modern English speaking audience, but they're likely familiar with Hanukkah.
I think there is a hurdle in fully understanding the importance of cultural identity if you haven't or didn't grow up in a culture that was intriscly a part of your identity and family. Particularly culture's that are cultivated in the jewish and arabic faith. I grew up in a muslim family and came to Christ much later in life. I have lost a great deal of my culture and family because of this (and that is okay :) - so I can understand the desire to keep those roots - particulary when those roots are so intrisic and benefecial in knowing Jesus - I mean, these people waited centuries for him - and they have traiditions and longings that go back centuries - ways in understanding God and each other that link them to their ancestors which is clearly a value for them and I think that's okay. I have not found my fellowship with them to be excluding - nor do I think their desire to belong to or connect with their jewish roots or the reverence they have for the hebrew language and the devotion to preseve it is somethin akin to "I am of apollos", if anything I think it's an adherence Deuteronomy 11:18 - 19.
But I can and do understand the prespective presented by Mark Ward in this video and I can appreciate his love for the people of God and not wanting to create unncessary division. This is helpful and lovely. I simply want to share my testimony with him and say that I have found my fellowship with people from the messianic jewish faith or oreination to be endearing and encouraging - it has bolstered my faith and brought me a great deal of comfort and love. Thanks for the video, guys!
Great video guys , look forward to possibly seeing Dr Mark Ward on again.
I would love to see Remenant Radio do an interview with the guys from 119 Ministries. I don't hear you interviewing many people from a messianic Jewish perspective. But I often hear you interviewing people with an issue with it. I appreciate you guys but would love to see an interview with a solid messianic ministry.
119 Ministries is not Messianic Jewish. They are Hebrew Roots - a movement who gentiles who believe Christians must observe Jewish-specific commandments like Shabbat, kosher, Jewish festivals, etc. The Messianic Jewish community rejects this teaching.
As a sub to both channels, great discussion; loved it! Thank you and GOD bless you all.
Interesting. I hope I'm able to articulate what I want to convey. Mark is a dear brother who has some good and do enjoy his graciousness . In where Mark mentioned undue or unnecessary jargon or ' patois ' in reference to utilizing Hebrew words and pronunciations I think it's helpful to know historically Messianic synagogues, congregations and ministries is a revival evangelistic movement in reaching the broader Jewish community in particular those who have inklings for the Gospel but struggle with the fears of cultural assimilation-- which is a very real concern for the Jewish community to this day-- and overcoming deep seated obstacles when a Jewish seeker is not comfortable with the typical church environment,and distrusting of Christian institutions. Yes, some or many traditional Jews have accepted the Gospel and went into the church life and been 'absorbed ' into an average Christian non-Jewish church world. Such are traditionally seen as someone who betrayed his/ her Jewish Faith, Family and People. I've been in Messianic synagogues for some years and witnessed first hand how effective it is to invite a Jewish seeker or seeing a Messianic Jewish believer invite a non-saved Jewish family member or friend to a Shabbat ( Jewish Sabbath) service or Jewish holiday gathering in a Messianic Jewish congregation. The Messianic Jewish congregation is unapologetically bold and clear on the start even before entering the service or premises what are their beliefs to the potentially invited unsaved Jewish person. I even seen them giving their hearts to the Lord in such settings. I gave out the TLV Bibles to both Jewish seekers and skeptics who are either secular or deeply committed to their form of traditional/ typical Judaism from Reform Judaism to Orthodox Judaism. To my knowledge they haven't yet made public profession of faith but received these TLV Bibles gladly. I've been told by some who remarked, " I'm surprised how Jewish this Book is" . I always seen Jewish Christians/ Christian Jews attending conservative evangelical churches very comfortable and elated in attending a messianic congregation where they, al9ng with their children and families, can regularly participate in Torah services and celebrate Jewish Biblical holidays with a clear strong focus on the genuine Gospel. Hence, further removing that artificial but very real barriers ( emotional, intellectual, cultural, etc.) to being a fully committed Jewish follower of Jesus.
Brother Ward and the rest of you gentlemen have made some good points as always. I share your sentiments in reading our Bibles & love one another. Thanks again for this episode. God bless.
While you probably have a point on some of the terms used in the TLV, I think there are good reasons for using the original Hebrew names. For example, for a lot of Jews, the name Jesus is associated with hundreds of years of persecution by people who called themselves Christians living in Europe. So by using Jewish names like Yeshua, it can make a big difference in helping reach them, to show that he really is the Jewish Messiah.
Exactly! Mark, has anyone in this conversation mentioned that this Word of God was written in order that the typical Jewish person would be able to see the Jewishness of Jesus, to see the Old Testament reflected in it and tied to it? I believe this "version" tries very lovingly to stay true to God's Word in order to reach all peoples. Shouldn't we allow the Holy Spirit to guide the reader as to the Truth, and not rely on well intended critiques of His Word??
You might want to have Dr. Michael Brown and Dr. Craig Keener on to get their perspective since they both were on the Translation Team for the Tree of Life Bible. I don't think anyone would accuse either of them as being sectarian and it's hard to imagine them contributing to and lending their reputation to a project whose purpose was to be sectarian.
Yes Dr. Michael Brown should definitely speak with Mark!
One of my professors contributed greatly to the tree of life bible! I’m a big fan
I'm very thankful for Remnant Radio and the way you guys curate precious insight and across the body of Christ. When it comes to valuing the TLV, our theology on the past, present, and future role of Israel is the largest influence. Would you be open to interviewing a messianic Jewish member of the TLV Translation leadership? I think many of us would appreciate hearing from them as well. Thank you!
Yo I found @priscillawan on TH-cam! 😂
@@LukeLong-ft5um Luuuuuke! TH-cam just became a happier place! Miss you, brother! It's so funny because I've only ever made maybe two comment posts on youtuber ever in my life and you found one of them! Hooray! You win a prize!
As I posted to Mark Ward’s video on this, the ultimate purpose of Messianic Judaism is to evangelize the Jews. Y’all aren’t the target audience. Traditional Christianity has largely failed to appeal widely to Jews because they see a Gentile religion and don’t know that they’re missing out on their Jewish Messiah. It is several orders of magnitude easier to win a Jewish heart to Christ/Messiah by showing that Jewishness over Christianity, which many Jews see as an oppressor. Bible translations that use Jewish names and terms show them that they can believe without losing their Jewish identity. There are certainly a lot of Gentiles in the Messianic movement who really get into the Jewishness of it. But the ultimate audience for the Tree of Life translation isn’t y’all. It’s God’s people according to the covenant he made with Abraham: the Jews.
They need to learn that they're Jewish Jewishness is irrelevant. That's racism.
Also Mark, if he wants to be considered as an 'expert' needs to update his knowledge base.
There are 100's of manuscripts with the vowels added to YHVH found by Dr Nehimiah Gordon.
(Ye Ho Vah)
"Ya weh" is nowhere to be found!
@@eswn1816 Nehemiah Gordon...ugghhh. 🙄
@@dustinneely
DR. Nehimiah Gordon, please.
Care to actually comment or do you just want to appear as a 🤡?
@@JJ-km3bl
Jeremiah 31: 33 is NOT legalism!
33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Great discussion!
Messianic Judaism isn't about ethnic adherence, the meaning of being a Messianic Jew is having complete trust and faith in the Jewish understanding of your savior Jesus Christ. That is the main Lesson of it.
My problem with this discussion is that at the time of Paul’s writing, using Christos would not have “removed” or “distanced” the concept of Jesus “ being” Messiah, and the importance of that in understanding who He was and what he was doing and claiming to be. Mark is so good at helping us understand this type of thing, but I’m wondering if he has thought about how in modern language the use of “Christ” in fact “does” tend to be taken as surname, rather than making reference to the fact that what Jesus was / is, IS Messiah and all that means.
The argument that Christos should be translated as Christ is not valid because the words Christos and Messias both translate into Hebrew as Mashiach (Anointed One) and the anglicized rendering of Mashiach is Messiah. People that make this arguement that the word Christos should be translated as Christ and not as Messiah are showing the rest of us that they are antisemitic.
TLV is a wonderful translation because a majority of Christians today are not English or American and have different ethnic backgrounds who dont readily identify with the western understanding of Jewish traditions. Infact Swahili and even Korean call Jesus, Yesu, which is more like the translation Paul offered. A rich appreciation of Jewish culture pictures Christ more accurately and helps me identify more with him as someone of African background.
Could you post video on Geneva Bible vs. Tree of Life?
I consider everything up to the Resurrection as a continuance of the Old Testament. Jesus was born as a Jew under Jewish law. Just like those before Him. It was after He rose from the dead that everything changed! Or at the renting of the temple veil at the earliest. JMO
Christ was not born under Jewish law because He never adhered to the false traditions of Judaism. The idea that Christ adhered to their traditions has no truth to it at all, because He routinely rebuked them for elevating their traditions above what was written in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus was a Torahist, not an Orthodox Jew.
I really like the guest on this show.
I love the TLV version
Also where can I get his articles?
this bible is great. the messianic synagouge i attend uses it and i use it along with the esv. it is to help Jewish people see that the gospels are Jewish.i love seeing the terms it uses but it never states and no one who reads it started you have to use those terms
the TLV doesn't actually use the Hebrew word for Messiah (Mashiach). but rather, translates "Xristos" as "Messiah". Now, there ARE Hebrew Roots/Messianic translaitons that do transliterate it (Et Cepher and OJB for example). or rnder "God" as Elohim (The Scriptures by ISR).
Saul and Paul are inherently unrelated names. The relationship between them is simply that both names were different parts of Paul's full Roman-Jewish name.
Something else I want to say is depending on your audience you can use different language. I don't think you should use a majority of Hebrew words and idioms if the people don't understand. I agree Hebrew words may sound like Tongues if there is no understanding but using some Hebrew words to connect to Hebraic culture is not a bad thing. For example peace verses Shalom. Also my name is Ari which means lion, but calling me Leo is a very different sound and feeling than saying Ari.
Although I appreciate your heart for clarity, I would have to disagree with your preference that names and places be translated into English. I think there is a place for translations that bring the average layperson closer to the culture of the Bible. For example, in Scot McKnight’s recently released Second Testament, he translates James as Yakõbos. This translation could help many people not see James and unconsciously associate him with an European English speaking man and recognize he was Jewish (although he is rightly translating from Greek, not imposing Hebrew words on the text). He also argues that it retains a connection that evokes Jacob from the Old Testament. Not everyone is going learn the biblical languages, and most English bibles probably aren't going to footnote that. John Goldingays Old Testament uses Yahweh instead of Lord and Ribqah (instead of Rebekah), and I could see how this could help someone far removed from the Hebrew text get closer to it. What type of understandability are you aiming for? As a native English speaker, having that word translated as Yakõbos prompts me that this is a text written thousands of years ago to a culture much different than my own and prompts me to investigate and learn more and not take these texts out of context. I understand your sentiment concerning the TLV. I have had issues dealing with the “Hebrew roots” movement and an emphasis on keeping Jewish holidays, etc. I'm not sure, however, that the translators of the TLV are intent on teaching that someone must say “Yeshua” to be accurate. Just because no one is speaking ancient Hebrew (or Greek, for that matter) doesn't mean that it may not be helpful to transliterate names and places. This is especially helpful in a culture that often associates Christianity as an imperial European religion and not one rooted in the Ancient Near East. There is a place for some of these translations with a traditional English Bible on hand to compare.
The TLV was made primarily for Jewish believers in Adonai Yehoshua HaMashiach and to reconnect the New Testament with its Jewishness, after all the writers of the New Testament were all Jews including Luke, we know that Luke was a Jew because he had an inimate knowledge of the inner workings of the Holy Temple where no Gentile was allowed, plus he was Miryam's (Mary's) doctor, it is very unlikely that a Gentile doctor would have been allowed to be a doctor of an Jewish women in the first century, Luke was a Jewish doctor.
If you don't have a full understanding of how the Messianic movement works, why not include a Messianic Jewish person in the discussion?????
I feel like as non-Jewish believers you have very little understanding of what it means to a Jewish person to be able to walk out their Jewish identity as commanded in the Old Testament while also walking in the full redemption of a relationship with the Messiah. Saying it's an unnecessary sect of faith is highly inflammatory and tells Jewish believers they dont have to be Jewish anymore. A very dangerous view point when the Church has forced conversion or death upon Jewish people in the past...
I encourage you both to sit down and talk with one of the rabbis or scholars who helped write this version.
@amandajacobs4374 Amanda they are clearly antisemites. These kind of "Christians" are why I refuse to set foot in churches today. I once decided to visit a church but I was stopped at the door by an angry antisemitic old man who said to me in a very angry tone of voice "You should know better then to come here!". Unfortunately the churches are full of anti-Semites which is why I am a member of a Messianic Jewish Shul, although I have not attend my Shul since before Oct 7 because to get there I would have to ride on public transit, which I do not feel comfortable doing these days.
Man I’ve really learned some good things from Marks videos in the past, and I share concerns of turning from Grace to the Law as Paul describes.
Mark doesn’t seem to actually be prepared to have this discussion, he cites 2nd and 3rd hand perspectives into this vs talking directly to the ones that produced this version. Perhaps the TLV does go astray, but from the little discussion it’s seems more like Marks linguistic sect doesn’t like this other sect.
Maybe there is a better take on this, but I’m not convinced this topic was appropriately prepared for, and consequently discussed.
I’d note that I generally have lined up with Mark on most of what I’ve seen. But this seems mostly like preference and nitpicking.
You could be right, my friend! And I appreciate your balance here. On Messianic Judaism, I admit to having mostly second- and third-hand views. I tried to acknowledge that in the interview. On the TLV, however, I did listen directly to the progenitors of the volume; and I read enough of it for myself to form what I hope was an accurate, firsthand opinion.
@@markwardonwordsHey Mark, have you checked out their app? They have their key principles for translating in their videos, I don't get a sense of Hebrew roots movement from them or pushing an obligation, I enjoyed them because of my interest in languages, modern Hebrew and transliterations from interlineal bibles. 😄 thanks for reading, if you ever make a follow up video happy to see your findings
Would love some prayer please. I’ve been searching and asking for the gifts of the spirit. For a while the last few years, it really seemed like I was growing in it but I’ve had a major tough last couple of years. Perhaps I’ve gotten into some prosperity stuff and maybe some false prophecy…maybe? I won’t get into the details but I’m very confused and it’s stressing me a lot. I’ve wanted to hear his voice for all my life (almost 34 now). Last thing I’ll say is this, I’ve had some dreams that I have definitely lived through. Every event in its order, but when it came time for the two things I felt like he promised would happen at the end of these dreams, they didn’t happen. Perhaps they will but I’m lost at the moment. All I want is it for all to have been him, but I’m fearful that I may have followed something else even though I knew it was him during those days. I’m no longer certain. Just please pray for clarity and real discernment from God. Keep in mind, I ask for what I don’t deserve. I know this.
Please check out Jacob Prasch teachings on the Gifts of the Spirit - also check out his study on “which one is it?” . If you have any questions- please feel free to ask. By the way I just came across your question in 11/30/2023. Blessings
The definition of words don't change, the use of words do. If we continue to allow words to be changed, then what's stopping us from saying a bunch of nonsense claiming it means something significant. Take the word gay for instance, the word was used as a synonym for happy, gleeful, joyous. Now it's been perverted to mean homosexual. Little by little the water begins to boil.
I wouldn't call the ESV a complimentarian sectarian bible, but I would call it a Calvinist sectarian bible translation 😉
It is my daily driver.
Love it when Mark Ward is on. His channel is excellent. I'm in Washington too, and I pronounce bag correctly (not like Mark). Pronunciation is fun, I say Worshington on purpose 😅
I agree with Mark.
Would you view observance of Shabbat as one of those Judaizing things? Its the 4th commandment, but messianic Jews and Protestants definitely disagree on that issue. I'd also like your stance on siimilar Bibles from ISR and the Cepher version.
Not many modern day Christians actually believe what's written regardless of translation -
"Matthew 15:24"
Never heard of this version. Question. How is this version different from the complete Jewish Bible?
well, for one, The TLV is a committee translation, and not a one man translation (the CJB is the translation by David Stern). 2. it actually has less Hebrew, Aramaic, or Yiddish words in it. The CJB transliterates way more names than just Yeshua. The TLV seems to only do it with the Messiah's name.
I'll posts some passages from John 1 from both for you.
John 1:6 (CJB)
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was Yochanan.
(John 1:6 TLV)
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:14 (CJB)
14 The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw his Sh’khinah, the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.
(John 1:14 TLV)
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. We looked upon His glory, the glory of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:19 (CJB)
19 Here is Yochanan’s testimony: when the Judeans sent cohanim and L’vi’im from Yerushalayim to ask him, “Who are you?”
(John 1:19 TLV)
This is John’s testimony, when the Judean leaders sent kohanim and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”
John 1:23-25 (CJB)
23 He answered in the words of Yesha‘yahu the prophet, “I am The voice of someone crying out: ‘In the desert make the way of ADONAI straight!’ ” 24 Some of those who had been sent were P’rushim. 25 They asked him, “If you are neither the Messiah nor Eliyahu nor ‘the prophet,’ then why are you immersing people?”
John 1:23-25 TLV He said, “I am ‘the voice of one crying in the wilderness, “Make straight the way of Adonai,”’ as the prophet Isaiah said.” (24) Now those sent were from the Pharisees. (25) They asked him, “If you’re not the Messiah, Elijah, or the Prophet, why then are you immersing?”
Good to know. See you can’t see these things on the Bible app. You can read them in a physical Bible. But if you are just checking translations of a verse to verse. I had no idea it was a one person translation like the passion. That’s a bummer. I’d prefer scholarship and committee or collaboration translations.
Great you mentioned about overly used hebraisms. A person has lost me slightly when they even insist on beginning with “Yeshua” etc. It gives away a lot straight away that I’m not gonna enjoy this convo. Good stuff
While I appreciate his passion for keeping the language as simple as possible. His argument that it’s wrong to make James into Jacob on the basis of “English language conventionality.” Is essentially saying, we don’t need to be faithful to the biblical text, because we already have a tradition in English of doing it this way.
I personally could care less if we call the New Testament book, James, or Jacob, but to make the argument that he did here is essentially putting a tradition of English-speaking men, as being more significant are more important than the Historicity of the Bible text…
He is right in some ways that we don’t need to insert Hebrew words where we have English words for them, but to appeal to convention rather than accuracy of translation, I think, long-term, that’s a troublesome argument
This is cogent. But let me push back a bit, my friend! What counts as accuracy here? Should we push all proper nouns in the Bible closer to the original languages? "Goliath" becomes "Galyat," "Elijah" becomes "Eliyahu," "David" becomes "Daouid" or "Dabid" or "Daoid"? And in fact, some names are spelled multiple ways-the name of "Moses" is spelled "Mosheh" in the OT and "Mouses" in the NT (those are the standard transliterations of the Hebrew and Greek forms, respectively). What do we do in this case?
In fact, "Moses" is now a word in English, and so almost all translations translate his name rather than transliterating it. The same goes for "Jacob" and "James." These are English words.
John Goldingay, in his First Testament, addresses some of this in the preface of his translation and chooses to keep the spelling differences in his translation. He also keeps (David) but transliterates other names (so it can be done). I would say that the translator(s) should make a decision and stick with it, which doesn't make one approach necessarily more accurate than the other, just different. Goldingay admits in his translation that his target audience is those familiar with traditional English translations. I think he succeeds in what he set out to do, and his translation could be helpful. Should pastors and teachers use such a translation as their primary text when teaching or in a sermon to an English-speaking congregation? No, I don't think that would be helpful. For personal study or as a reference? Yes.
@@markwardonwords James is not an English translation of Iakobos, Jacob is the true English translation of Iakabos, James is not a valid translation of the Koine Greek rendering of Iakabos at all. And Iakabos in Hebrew is Ya'akov.
@@user-hw6tg5qr1b It is, my friend. Just checked this again in the OED, and they posit that the Latin transliteration of the Greek, which was a transliteration (and translation-it added an -os ending a la other Greek names) of the Hebrew-anyway, that Latin transliteration gradually morphed from Jacobus to Jacomus, and then it passed through French into English in a similar form. This is all natural and normal for language.
There is a Greek word for Messiah in the Gospel of John. It is "messias". It is mentioned on two occasions, first in John 1:41 and then again in John 4:25.
In both these verses we see the word messiah and Christ ("christos") in the same verse. So it should be only these two verses (within the New Testament) that has an English translation of Messiah in the Scriptures. Everywhere else the English should say "Christ".
In John 1:41, Andrew tells Peter: "We have found the Messiah (which when translated is Christ)."
In John 4:25, the woman at the well says; "I know that the Messiah (called Christ) is coming".
✝👑🕊
Excellent. I was reminded of this today by a friend. I should have mentioned this~!
You are wrong and very anti-Semitic, the Koine Greek words Christos and Messias both are translated into Hebrew as Mashiach in Hebrew translations of the New Testament and both mean Anointed One, and Messiah is the Anglicised form of Messias, however it is valid to render Christos as messiah as well since both Christos and Messias translate into Hebrew as Mashiach. You are basically saying by your statement that the B'rit Chadasha (New Testament) should not be translated into Hebrew and that is very anti-Semitic.
@@user-hw6tg5qr1b no Christos is Christ in English. Messiah is Messiah. Not talking about Hebrew..
Here is a wild idea, how about whatever the OT says you translate it, and whatever the OT says you translate it. (Yes, I know not every Greek word has an English equivalent)
I think that sectarian is an unfair characterization of TLV. I think that it is more accurately translated to connect with a specific culture group, modern Jews who are “seekers” or followers of Jesus. Granted, it does look sectarian if it’s a bunch of Gentiles who are obsessed with Jewish roots making it into a “thing”. But in Israel, New York City, Miami, Los Angeles, etc. where there are largely Jewish or mixed Messianic communities TLV can create a great cultural bridge for communities where Hebrew terms might be familiar.
Well stated, also I find myself using it but not as the only bible, I use ESV audio and while reading TVL to get some background jewish cultural context. If anything is completely different I get a chance to see the bigger picture rather than obsessing. The glossary has helped me expand my Hebrew transliteration vocabulary when seeing Hebrew interlineal bibles. It's a great tool and that's how I found myself using it!
John _did_ transliterate "Messiah" in John 1:41 and in John 4:25 as Μεσσίας (Messias).
So the NT authors _did_ have a direct transliteration of Messiah available, and one of them even used that word in a couple of places, though each time he also gave the Greek equivalent in the same sentence.
Even with this option available, the original texts used Χριστός (Christos, or Christ) in all other instances when referring to Jesus' position as the anointed one and the fulfillment of prophecy.
the words Christos and Messias both translate into Hebrew as Mashiach (Anointed One) and so it is perfectly valid to render Christos as Messiah.
😅 my husband and I giggle to ourselves whenever we pass a Kingdom Hall because their gods name doesn’t exist or is a mistranslation. He taught me that over 17 years ago in bible college.
They just came to my house today. We talked about John 1 & how their own “translation” adds the article “a” for “a god” despite the Greek interlinear on their own website showing it doesn’t exist.
I've been using a translation called HalleluYah Scriptures that I was introduced to some years ago by Alan Horvath. It uses many of the original Hebrew words including the names of the Father and Son spelled in Paleo Hebrew. I supplement my usual reading of the KJV and NKJV with it. I'm currently on my first true reading through of the Bible although I've been raised a Baptist/Non-denominational. I think I read through it some 15 years ago, but obviously never retained anything.
The translation itself has zero footnotes or commentary. My concern with HalleluYah Scriptures is some of their supplemental material implies their belief of the importance of keeping the whole Torah. Not necessarily for salvation, but out of respect for Elohim. That it is certainly good advice for life, good 'instructions'. I can entertain this idea to an extent, but I am very concerned of crossing the line into a works salvation.
There's also their belief that the implication of 'Lord' being a name for Ba'al or Master, so they avoid that word, among many others. It's all so discouraging that even among Christians, everybody seems to think that they're correct and it's constant arguing and infighting. And to some, all the other people who have it 'wrong' are going to hell.
I have the thinline version of it. I really enjoy their translation. I found it faithful to the Hebrew. Can't comment on the Greek though.
However many times I found spelling mistakes or whole words missing. I contacted them to let them know. Odd for a bible to get all the way through to print without those things being picked up
I would be interested to know if they responded, as that's really put me off now, I was thinking of purchasing the thinline too.
@@liontribe555 yes they did. I'm not sure how much they appreciated the feedback though.
@@johnbat6743 I see. That's a shame.
@@liontribe555 I'd still buy it again. It's a good bible. Great for anyone who wants a bit of extra insight into Hebrew too
@@johnbat6743 ok thankyou. I'm just starting the whole Messianic journey as I've been in the traditional Pentecostal churches for many years. Do you have any thoughts on the complete Jewish study bible as I want to learn more about the text rather than just " read Jewish names".
So is this a Bible you’d give to a saved Jew? Or converted Jew who accepted Jesus as Lord as saviour?
Yes!
While not perfect, I personally appreciate the effort of Messianic translations like the TLV in building better consistency from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Miriam is Miriam (not Mary), Jacob is Jacob (not James), Shavuot is Shavuot (not Pentecost) etc.
It’s saddens me how we’re still divided if we are all truly seeking his kingdom not our own goals and be lead by the spirit we would not have this problem can’t wait for the master’s return so everyone can finally know the truth and sit down and hush up the proof is in the pudding taste and see for yourself
Listening to Mark talk for an hour about why tradition matters, and then going over to his channel to learn for years why tradition doesn't matter.
ouch.
The TLV is an incredible translation, but it doesn't have enough cross-references. That's sad. Most translation are above 70,000 cros-references plus footnotes, which is a must. Logos readers use these references.
james in spanish reina valera calls santiago or jacobo
You know recently here in Africa, we have some musicians who are using hebrew words like Kadosh or Yeshua in there songs and I usually felt this doesn't seem right. There isn't any inherent magic in hebrew that calling Jesus Yeshua should invoke something that Jesus should'nt. I'm glad I listened to this.
Your comment is just anti-Semitic, Jewish believers all over the world call Jesus Yeshua and say Kadosh and other Hebrew terms in worship. The TLV was made to use a Jewish form of English and was made primarily for Jewish believers in Adonai Yehoshua HaMashiach, if you don't like it then go use one of the many goyishe (Gentile) English translations of the Bible.
@@user-hw6tg5qr1b how is it anti-Semitic to say that there isn't any inherent magic to call Jesus Yeshua. I'm pretty sure he hears us when we call Him Jesus.
Also it seems to be promoting a very sectarian view of the Bible. I thought Jews and Gentiles are reading from the same script. You're making it look like we are not
I would have to disagree. Growing up in the church everything was was completely separated from the Jewish roots of our faith to a point that I had no idea that Jesus was Jewish and that our faith came from Israel or why it even mattered. I feel like learning the roots has helped me understand the Bible so much. Why translate the names in English if that’s not the real name? It’s not about the pronunciation it’s about preserving the origins. That’s I feel like. I feel like if you don’t honor where it came it from it’s hard to understand the significance of the culture and why it matters to know those things. I’m not sure why King James English would give the Bible any kind of cultural significance…learning Hebraic roots helps put the culture in context for me. I see nothing wrong with that if it’s helped me understand the Bible better, and get closer to God. It’s by no means has any impact on my salvation obviously and those who feel that way would be wrong, but learning the Jewish roots of our faith is really helpful in understanding the word for the time it was written.
You may find “unnecessary jargon” in the form of Hebrew ways of pronouncing things if you go to my wife’s Messianic Jewish congregation. But you’ll find a similar problem if you visit my mother’s Korean Presbyterian Church.
It is not unnecessary Hebrew jargon, Jesus was a Jew and his original name is Hebrew ands it is Yehoshua, and He spoke in Hebrew. Would you say to Jesus that His Jewishness and his Hebrew language are unnecessary.
The new testament was originally written in Greek so it should be translated from the Greek. The old testament was originally written in Hebrew so it should be translated from the Hebrew. That is why you find the Greek translation in the new testament.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (KJV) For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
The problem is normal versions of the Bible have got us away from what Christianity is actually about .
That’s were I see the TLV and the scriptures version to be a great thing .
Yea the Easter celebrating, Christmas cheering, pork eating , all the commandments are done away with, appointed biblical feasts what?! , people are not what the Bible teaches
Asking as a sincere Christian, Since God is all powerful, why wouldnt God have been able to reverse the effects of eating from the Tree Of Life if Adam and Eve ate from it?
Would Adam and Eve be alive on Earth today if they did?
Would they be beyond redemption?
You are asking questions that are difficult and largely left out of the flow of orthodoxy over the centuries of the Church era. But, it is written to give to him who ask.
Your secondary question..
The Adam and the Eve, possessed a type of immortality, with the Adam listed as a son of God. (recall the genealogy of the Christ on this point) They could go on living, as they had access to life.
Whether you realize it or not, your primary question involves the fitness or God to rule. Is God just? Are his decisions right?
You do not understand what was said in the Garden. Three spoke, and one held his peace, but spoke later in Job. Two accused God of wrong doing. The second accusation is in Job, where both God and a human are jointly accused. The Eve being accused as well in the Garden is important to understand what is said in Job.. She is being referenced in Job, but not by name.
Pay attention to what all say and the implications. Pretend you are an unbeliever who has never read these stories before. Just let the pages say what they say.
-DO NOT TURN TO COMMENTARIES-
It is vital for the growth of a believer to be able to understand for themselves what, and why they believe what they believe.
Start with that and good luck.
@@nathanpriddis412 Thank you for your reply.
I have in the past been searching commentaries, Gill, Barnes, Clarke etc on this question but couldn't find an answer.
Maybe it is a question I shouldn't ask and comes from questioning God's sovereignty, you seem to know far more about this than I do.
Thank you for recommending the book of Job, I definitely will add that to my reading list, and rely on God's Holy Spirit rather than commentaries to teach me.
@@hwd7 There is nothing wrong with desiring to understand seldom mentioned Scripture.
-It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.-
You are doing well.
Commentary use is not wrong either. They are useful in a forensic way, such as attempting to establish how doctrines develop over time. I recommend seeing them as historical artifacts, even contemporary writings. They will be tomorrow's artifacts and explain today's ideas to those examining our era.
(Edit. My screen is broken and I can't erase the underscore )
@@nathanpriddis412 I guess it's ok to use commentataries as they were led by The Holy Spirit to gain insight into the Scriptures, just as I can consult different translations,
however, there is a joy when I discover gems in God's word for myself, which I have been neglecting.
God bless you and take care.
Born again believer here. Not a Messianic Jew. However I've been looking into these Bibles. Tree of life is certainly not the best of the Messianic type Bibles. That being said, for Mark Ward to complain about not pronouncing Yeshua correctly is absolutely absurd. That's tantamount to a man who introduces himself as Alejandro, but you insist on calling him Alexander because you're not going to pronounce it with the exact accent and perfect pronunciation of a native Spanish speaker. There are many other things I can cite here about the more accurate, therefore true Hebrew language / culture transliteration issues. Honestly I find his speech to be acidic. It's not so much the Bible translation he's against it's their Church culture of acknowledging the Messiah's (and their) Hebrew roots. I do know people who have converted from Judaism to Messianic Christianity. They are accustomed to words like Adonai etc. Now they can FULLY embrace their TRUE JUDAISM which IS receiving their MESHIACH (Messiah) 20 minutes in and I can't watch this, and by "this" I mean his disrespectful tone, anymore. Shalom ...
@ArmyScoutMom You are right the guest on this episode is an anti-Semite.
On the Holy Spirit choosing not to use a transliteration of "Messiah" but rather "Christ" (or rather the greek equivalent) - it was quite deliberate as the Spirit did lead the authors of the NT to occasionally transliterate "messiah" while overwhelmingly lead those same authers to generally use "Christ" - to shift all NT uses of Christ back to Messiah would seem to going against the grain of what the Spirit did.
The problem is that English speakers are more likely to understand what a Messiah is than what a Christ is. The latter word has lost its meaning beyond being the title (or, as some falsely assume, surname) of Jesus. It would be as if the title "Alexander the Great" were the only context in which we used the word "great." Almost no one would know what "great" means!
@@MAMoreno in which case simply supply a cross reference to John 1.42 and 4.24 at a number of strategic places.
Do you not understand that the word Christos translates into Hebrew as Mashiach (Anointed One) and the angliciazed rendering is Messiah. By you statement you are saying it is wrong to translate the B'rit Chadasha (New Testament) into Hebrew. You are just one more anti-Semite, the churches are full of antisemites that is why I stay clear away from the goyishe (Gentile) churches and instead I am a member of a Messianic Jewish Shul (Synagogue). I was stopped at the door of a church once by an angry old anti-Semitic man who said to me in a very angry tone of voice "You should know better then to come here!". I will never set foot in a goyishe (Gentile) church ever again.
The TLV can be an interesting translation and I know many view the Jewish emphases as helpful, however where it can be used almost as a club or a tool of helping to support deception is when people misuse it for their own Jewish roots belief system . Typically called the Hebraic roots movement they are pulling many away from classic church settings based on reformed biblical teaching and getting them involved in a works based religious religion- gnosticism or a false gospel
Although Im a Christian and believe the Trinity, Im not convinced you have to believe it to be a Christian or be saved. Although the Gospels have a high Christology, it's debateable whether the initial believers in the first few decades fully understood God in terms of the Trinity.
Case in point of american pronunciation of biblical words... Logos. ;-)
What is wrong with your microphone with the bass going in & out?
Has it got really terrible proximity effect & your moving about too much?
Have you got failing components in your sound system?
It's so annoying to listen to this.
Maybe your using the wrong mic in the wrong way.
Baptists go to a Baptist church, and Presbyterians go to a Presbyterian church and so on............ By the definition that you use, every denomination is sectarian in some way. Why is it different when Jewish believers have a denomination. Im a Jewish believer, and I am going to a Baptist church right now. It seems like a double standard. Maybe im missing something? On a side note, saying Messianic Judaism. It's kind of like saying Evangelical. There are many types of Messianic, and some of us refer to ourselves as Messianic because we are Jewish and believe in our Messiah. We are no longer divided as Jew and Gentile in Christ, but everyone has an identity that comes from our background.
Also, in that Bible, they mentioned Jesus died on the stake, not cross which it’s very suspicious
Peter said Christ was hung on a tree in his epistle(1 Pet. 2:24), so there's nothing suspicious about it. Traditional Christianity has promoted the crucifix lie as being the instrument of Christ's death by translating "stauros" as "cross", even though a stauros is literally a stake. What is truly suspicious is that the Bible never mentions the exact shape of the stake that He was nailed to, and yet ppl think He was put on a crucifix.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 jehovah Witnesses believe he died on stake. Peter is one while many others say he died on the cross.
The Koine Greek word translated as the word cross is a Stauros which can be translated as a stake a cross or a pole, the be specific Jesus cross was an upright execution stake with a crossbar. I do prefer to call it a cross however "stake" is also a valid translation, however it is historically known that Roman execution stakes had crossbars and are therefore crosses.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 it is historically known that the Romans crucified people on upright execution stakes with crossbars, therefore it is correct to translate the Koine Greek word stauros as a cross.
@@realdariavalleyyep but JW have stake and torture stake all across, TVL has cross in the "take up the cross, and keep following me" mark 8:34 and again Luke 14:27 and throughout the NT letters, TVL is not denying a cross, but they do say nailed on a stake. Even stating Philippians 2:8 "He humbled himself--becoming obedient, to the point of death, even death on a cross" TVL
Oh boy, even after all this time I just can't agree with you experts. The Tree of Life, just as The Complete Jewish Bible was not written for you. Both of these works were aimed at the English speaking Jewish community. You are welcome along for the ride.
One of your banal comments was about the name Yeshua, which is Hebrew for Jesus, just as The Messiah is Hebrew for your Greek Christ. The Scriptures, on the other hand, were written to bring Jewish concept to you.
And yes, I can get away with saying "Your Greek Christ." I was introduced to the Messiah by another name wonderful "sect." We didn't learn Greek.
Now what I have not had time for yet is to sit down and see which CT translation these two groups copied, as they most certainly used CT variants in these "translations." The exact same verses are proclaimed to be unlikely as all CT followers proclaim.
Joshua, please turn up the lights on your face, it's too Blanche DuBois for my eyes 👀
There is no contention, King James Bible add, omits and translates the Hebrew Scriptures. I am saying this with all love to you my brother.
To call Christians who don't ascribe to the extra-biblical idea of the trinity "not Christian" is bordering on blasphemy. It's also very sectarian. The Mark Wards of the world would have you believe that there has been a consensus since Christ in the church supporting the trinity doctrine, but don't believe them. It's an exclusionary sectarian heresy from a group of religious people who know not the nature and power of God.
1 Corinthians 14 isn't talking about Bible translations!
In a worldly, natural, earthly sense ok study all the translations; but Christianity is a supernatural under taking where the Word of God should never be altered to appease the carnal mind. There absolutely will not be unity of the church until The Spirit of the mind of Christ is the goal of every believer.
The corrupt church is the product of the corrupt carnal mind.
It's just translated from greek back to Hebrew. To more understand Jewish traditions? People ?
You may enjoy this video where Dr. Jeffrey Seif defends the translation: th-cam.com/users/live9Q4UGF7_O5A
Many in the faith frown upon diving into the Hebrew roots. They worship a Hebrew Messiah and quote from the apostles. I find it mind boggling
I am not a fan of E.S.V rather use N.E.T
or the New King James Version.
Linguistic snobbery?
The doctrine of the trinity is not truth.
Why?
Bad vibes from this guy
@@DavidWilkinss it's all about the good vibrations, man :)