Your treatment of FLATTOP was spot on. The ideal way to play it is double-blind with a referee handling all spotting during movement. It creates a wonderful tension as each player waits for reports from the ref, just like real commanders endured. We used to play it live in an office suite using phones to call in our moves between rooms. When email became ubiquitous, playing with a game master made the process of playing longer scenarios more accessible timewise. The GENERAL had some great add on rules. What a wonderful game!
Oh another installment. Excellent and thank you for making these. Late 70s truly was a golden age in hobby Boardgames and it’s sadly forgotten or unknown by far too many people who when confronted with it write Avalon Hill off as only wargames. Thanks.
Although there are new companies (GMT comes to mind but is certainly not the only one) putting out high quality and perfectly serviceable wargames, I just miss browsing the gamestore shelves for all those Avalon Hill titles! I miss the General magazine with its wonderfully grand self-importance in every well-crafted article!! I know this is pure nostalgia on my part, but without AH it's just not the same; it feels like something - or an old friend - is missing.
I know the feeling, although I was only old enough to discover AH towards the tail end of its existence. And yes, the General always took itself so seriously! I love that!
The people who 'sell' games think games have to have plastic pieces like risk, or axis and allies. I like GMT but their production schedule is SOOOOOO LOOOONNNNNG. I've been on a preorder for over 2 years now. I finally just killed it. GMT also seems to overproduce parts, for example in Panzer the armor cards are on really thick counter cardstock, theres no reason for that expense, I also dont like that panzer armor cards are super simplified from the AH MBT era cards. Hasbro SHOULD have begun re-releasing classic AH games about a Decade ago, to cash in on nostalgia. They own it all and have no idea how to make money from it. its truly sad. Historical gaming in the old AH sense had fallen back to miniatures and miniature rulesets which can be purchased as pdf thus reducing the production costs. But you still have to find or make minis.
I found my first AH game about 1978 in a small corner gift/bookstore that my mom visited. It was Arab-Isreali Wars, and was so fascinating that someone made such a thing. I was hooked as I love history, and the games let us explore many aspects of many battles.
@@orbitalair2103 I don't think it works that way for Hasbro. A lot of games they published (or the VG ones) rights may have been returned to the designer. With others, ASL and GBACW springs to mind, they've licensed production over to MMP. ASL and CoH are fine, but someone really should republish the AH 2nd edition of SL.
The comment about the computer games gave me a bit of a chuckle. I was one of those that actually owned a TRS-80. I owned each of the games. Sadly I lost my TRS-80 in 1990.
@@LegendaryTactics you have a free P&P you can try out. Game is insane. Only game where you can screw yourself over so easily... Like meeting a huge monster as a wizard, no chance to beat it, use a ring to turn into mist. Was low on mana so had no mana to turn myself back into human form. Forever cursed to roam as fog.
Wow, I lived it, but never realized the sea of change that happened over 78-80. So many new titles. No wonder I couldnt keep up. I thought FlatTop came from Yaquinto? I have it, but havent cracked the box in decades. I recall it played pretty well for a carrier hunt and hide type game. The space tactical combat game, I could have sworn was preceded by TaskForceGames StarFire. I loved Starfire1 and 2, but all that came after were very disappointing to me, even the 90s reorg and reprint became too complex and overbearing. Thanks for making these videos.
Thank you for watching them! Craig Taylor adapted the Flat Top system for the Battle of Midway, and released C.V. with Yaquinto, that's what you might be thinking of. Starfire might have preceded Alpha Omega, but it was only slightly as they came out the same year.
Those statis pro games were just amazing at the time. Although mostly a wargamer, I was a huge sports fan as well. Back then, pre personal computer, there was no option for simulating a sports game quite like statis pro. With computer games like OOTP, it's an outdated medium, but back then, it felt like an answer to prayers, lol.
@@LegendaryTactics I think the baseball was my favorite because I enjoy the sport more. The one that was most challenging was Basketball. I dont really love basketball, but that was a good game.
Flat Top may be the best naval game ever made with one caveat. It requires several players (including a referee) and a massive amount of space. We used to play with 5. 2 allied, two Japanese and a ref. We also had 3 complete games and maps set up. One map for allied, one for Japanese and a 3rd for the referee. Without a ref and the multiple maps, very hard to simulate fog of war. With this set up, this is by far the most exciting and nerve wracking multi player tabletop imo.
Wow, that sounds amazing! I love the idea of referees, and I'm surprised there isn't more games that feature it in some way. I think being the referee is just as much fun as being a player, but maybe I'm weird.
@@LegendaryTactics It was a lot of work being the ref but it wasnt terrible. you got to see what both sides were doing, could see the coming conflicts or failures that the players were oblivious to. The group I belonged to as a young man was much more interested in the playing and experiencing than winning. Something I later learned was all many gamers cared about. Play any hex n counter games on the computer? Like Tiller's games?
No, I have only played a small fraction of them. I do a lot of research for these videos, reading reviews, the General Magazine and any other sources that I can find
@@LegendaryTactics well... I play very large games, but I have no special need to play "The longest day". I'd rather play a modern one, like an OCS game.
I completely forgot about Smoker's Wild since I strictly played wargames. But I vaguely remember having to play Smoker's Wild in health class around 7th or 8th grade in the early 80s as part of an anti-smoking campaign.
@@LegendaryTactics Noooo! We thought it was silly. That's probably why that segment of this video triggered my memory. Kids who were curious about smoking back then were already smoking and thought it was cool. I don't think it was actually part of the school system curriculum and I think the health teacher brought the game in on his own. I've never been a smoker though, but I like to drink...Ha! A side note, this was in Rhode Island in case you guys are going to do further research.
Since this is the first video that you guys mention AH's computer games (that I've seen), do you anticipate doing videos on their computer games? If not, can you recommend a channel that has? Funny enough, some other channels have mentioned AH Atari 2600 games which I totally forgot about.
Yes, I'm looking to do a standalone video on Avalon Hill's computer games when I'm done the regular series. Stay tuned, as I will endeavor to get it out by the end of the year. Each of these videos takes a lot of time to research and write
@@LegendaryTactics Oh that's great and I'm looking forward to that. Although probably outside of the scope of your channel, GenXGrownup here on YT did a review of an AH Atari game called WallBall. Kind of a 3D version of breakout and seemingly ahead of its time. I totally forgot that AH did some Atari games.
War at Sea was my gateway game, going from that to Flat Top a year later was a steep climb and I fell immediately, Victory in the Pacific was an easier game. I did come back to Flat Top a few years later and enjoyed it. I can't believe you didn't mention Stellar Conquest, I think it was the first Space 4X game, way before Twilight Imperium was even an idea. I believe it was the inspiration for Microprose's Master of Orion of the 90's.
The original came out in 1975, but Avalon Hill didn't publish it until 1984. So it will be in part 5 of the series, the next video which covers up to 1985. Stay tuned!
@@LegendaryTactics lol! I just learned this morning that the correct way to pronounce GIF (the file format) is like the peanut butter, Jif. Been saying it like the g in give forever.
Air Assault on Crete has about the ugliest cover of all time, but it was a great game. I got it at age 11 in 1978 and played it for many years. Because my copy suffered a cruel fate a few years back, I have kept an eye on eBay for a cheap copy. I still have copies of Battleline games like Air Force and Dauntless from before AH took them over. In fact, I still have or once owned just about every traditional wargame mentioned here. While Rising Sun never made it, AH did eventually put out Empire of the Rising Sun in the mid 90s. It is basically the Advanced Third Reich system ported over to the Pacific with appropriate modifications. I have had it for nearly 30 years but never found anyone interested in it. Axis Empires: Dai Senso! Is far better and has hit the table several times.
I think Empire of the Sun is just so daunting to learn and play, most people were put off it, despite the fact it is a great game. Monster games always have and always will have that problem. Even with computer games, if I catch wind that it is a "time sink", I usually look elsewhere.
@@LegendaryTactics I understand your point of view, but I do love my monsters just as much as something simpler such as some of my old classics like PanzerBlitz or Afrika Korps. As a veteran of two full campaigns of the beast known as Vietnam 1965-1975, I will wallow in the mud of vast complexity and length if others indulge me. While I am happy with something simple like War at Sea or Victory in the Pacific, I equally enjoy mashing them together in the more recent Admirals' War with its dollop of added rules complexity . I am equally pleased playing Third World War Designer Signature Edition as individual theaters or all four together in a gargantuan epic struggle. It all comes down to what one and one's friends enjoy and what everyone can commit to finishing. Currently,I am a wargame omnivore enjoying the luxury of partial retirement that allows pursuit of game both large and small. I got into the monsters early on as a pampered preteen, but I had to largely set them aside during the working stiff grind and family man years. I have returned to the monsters with a vengeance at the onset of my golden years before incipient senility sets in and reduces me to struggling with Connect Four.
It's entirely possible. Volko Ruhnke, in our interview, said to "Think of three things - playing games, designing games, and having a life. You can only pick two!"
Your treatment of FLATTOP was spot on. The ideal way to play it is double-blind with a referee handling all spotting during movement. It creates a wonderful tension as each player waits for reports from the ref, just like real commanders endured. We used to play it live in an office suite using phones to call in our moves between rooms. When email became ubiquitous, playing with a game master made the process of playing longer scenarios more accessible timewise. The GENERAL had some great add on rules. What a wonderful game!
I have always wanted to play a game that way - and I love the idea of using the phones! Something wonderfully appropriate about that!
Oh another installment. Excellent and thank you for making these. Late 70s truly was a golden age in hobby Boardgames and it’s sadly forgotten or unknown by far too many people who when confronted with it write Avalon Hill off as only wargames. Thanks.
You're welcome, and thanks for watching!
Seeing that KOME 98.5 sticker next to the "WARGAME" vanity plate takes me back to my teenage years in San Jose.
Ha ha, nice! A reader sent that in to the General magazine
This series is a work of love.
It certainly is! I enjoy making them although they take a ton of time. Thanks for watching them!
Although there are new companies (GMT comes to mind but is certainly not the only one) putting out high quality and perfectly serviceable wargames, I just miss browsing the gamestore shelves for all those Avalon Hill titles! I miss the General magazine with its wonderfully grand self-importance in every well-crafted article!! I know this is pure nostalgia on my part, but without AH it's just not the same; it feels like something - or an old friend - is missing.
I know the feeling, although I was only old enough to discover AH towards the tail end of its existence. And yes, the General always took itself so seriously! I love that!
The people who 'sell' games think games have to have plastic pieces like risk, or axis and allies. I like GMT but their production schedule is SOOOOOO LOOOONNNNNG. I've been on a preorder for over 2 years now. I finally just killed it. GMT also seems to overproduce parts, for example in Panzer the armor cards are on really thick counter cardstock, theres no reason for that expense, I also dont like that panzer armor cards are super simplified from the AH MBT era cards.
Hasbro SHOULD have begun re-releasing classic AH games about a Decade ago, to cash in on nostalgia. They own it all and have no idea how to make money from it. its truly sad. Historical gaming in the old AH sense had fallen back to miniatures and miniature rulesets which can be purchased as pdf thus reducing the production costs. But you still have to find or make minis.
I found my first AH game about 1978 in a small corner gift/bookstore that my mom visited. It was Arab-Isreali Wars, and was so fascinating that someone made such a thing. I was hooked as I love history, and the games let us explore many aspects of many battles.
@@orbitalair2103 AIW's sister game Panzer Leader was my first - and it was my "gateway drug" into wargaming..!
@@orbitalair2103 I don't think it works that way for Hasbro. A lot of games they published (or the VG ones) rights may have been returned to the designer. With others, ASL and GBACW springs to mind, they've licensed production over to MMP. ASL and CoH are fine, but someone really should republish the AH 2nd edition of SL.
The comment about the computer games gave me a bit of a chuckle. I was one of those that actually owned a TRS-80. I owned each of the games. Sadly I lost my TRS-80 in 1990.
I have used a TRS-80 at one point (I think a friend had one), but those other ones I had never heard of!
Still have mine. No games though.n
Thanks for this series. It's always interesting to learn about wargaming history.
Glad you enjoyed it! More to come!!
yay you mentioned Magic Realm :)
Well, it was published in this time period, so I kind of had to. I've never played it, but I'd love to try it, if only I can get through the rules
@@LegendaryTactics There's a really good version of the game on TableTop simulator
The game that I want to like but which chokes on the die rolls for hiding and searching. A few 'house rules' can help with that.
@@LegendaryTactics you have a free P&P you can try out. Game is insane. Only game where you can screw yourself over so easily... Like meeting a huge monster as a wizard, no chance to beat it, use a ring to turn into mist. Was low on mana so had no mana to turn myself back into human form. Forever cursed to roam as fog.
I still have air assault on Crete, never dumped it
If you ever do, it's only right that you throw it out the door of an airplane ✈️
Dune and Wizard’s Quest… two AH favorites of mine. Especially Dune. Gale Force Nine really did the game justice in their 2019 remake.
I really want to try Dune, but you have to have a big group to do it properly...
@@LegendaryTactics Best with 6 players. Can be a challenge to acquire 5 other players, but the end result is so worth it.
Wow, I lived it, but never realized the sea of change that happened over 78-80. So many new titles. No wonder I couldnt keep up. I thought FlatTop came from Yaquinto? I have it, but havent cracked the box in decades. I recall it played pretty well for a carrier hunt and hide type game. The space tactical combat game, I could have sworn was preceded by TaskForceGames StarFire. I loved Starfire1 and 2, but all that came after were very disappointing to me, even the 90s reorg and reprint became too complex and overbearing. Thanks for making these videos.
Thank you for watching them! Craig Taylor adapted the Flat Top system for the Battle of Midway, and released C.V. with Yaquinto, that's what you might be thinking of.
Starfire might have preceded Alpha Omega, but it was only slightly as they came out the same year.
War and Peace, The Guns of August, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, The Longest Day, 3 of my 4 favorites covered here.
Nice! Third Reich was in the video just before this one:. th-cam.com/video/PHDR8tqhxGg/w-d-xo.html
Those statis pro games were just amazing at the time. Although mostly a wargamer, I was a huge sports fan as well. Back then, pre personal computer, there was no option for simulating a sports game quite like statis pro. With computer games like OOTP, it's an outdated medium, but back then, it felt like an answer to prayers, lol.
Yes, they were so much fun to play, and they were a reasonable simulation even though they weren't complex. Which one was your favorite?
@@LegendaryTactics I think the baseball was my favorite because I enjoy the sport more. The one that was most challenging was Basketball. I dont really love basketball, but that was a good game.
Flat Top may be the best naval game ever made with one caveat. It requires several players (including a referee) and a massive amount of space. We used to play with 5. 2 allied, two Japanese and a ref. We also had 3 complete games and maps set up. One map for allied, one for Japanese and a 3rd for the referee. Without a ref and the multiple maps, very hard to simulate fog of war. With this set up, this is by far the most exciting and nerve wracking multi player tabletop imo.
Wow, that sounds amazing! I love the idea of referees, and I'm surprised there isn't more games that feature it in some way. I think being the referee is just as much fun as being a player, but maybe I'm weird.
@@LegendaryTactics It was a lot of work being the ref but it wasnt terrible. you got to see what both sides were doing, could see the coming conflicts or failures that the players were oblivious to. The group I belonged to as a young man was much more interested in the playing and experiencing than winning. Something I later learned was all many gamers cared about. Play any hex n counter games on the computer? Like Tiller's games?
Your presentation of the games is so knowledgeable, I wonder whether you really have played them all.
No, I have only played a small fraction of them. I do a lot of research for these videos, reading reviews, the General Magazine and any other sources that I can find
1978-1980 was Avalon Hills golden age IMHO
It was a very prolific time, with lots of amazing titles, and a fair amount of innovation
I had so many of these games, many of them unpunched. Then I sold them all. Much regret.
That's too bad... Maybe you can start rebuilding your collection? A lot of these games are available online now
Wow, The Longest Day, oh man, has anyone ever played it?
I've seen it on the table.
I pawned my CB Radio to raise the money to buy this game. At the time, it was one of my favorite.
There was a small segment of gamers that loved those monster games
Cool guys, cb radio, good ole days
@@LegendaryTactics well... I play very large games, but I have no special need to play "The longest day".
I'd rather play a modern one, like an OCS game.
I completely forgot about Smoker's Wild since I strictly played wargames. But I vaguely remember having to play Smoker's Wild in health class around 7th or 8th grade in the early 80s as part of an anti-smoking campaign.
Wow! That's quite unconventional! Did it scare you away from smoking? Did it work as intended?
@@LegendaryTactics Noooo! We thought it was silly. That's probably why that segment of this video triggered my memory. Kids who were curious about smoking back then were already smoking and thought it was cool. I don't think it was actually part of the school system curriculum and I think the health teacher brought the game in on his own. I've never been a smoker though, but I like to drink...Ha! A side note, this was in Rhode Island in case you guys are going to do further research.
Since this is the first video that you guys mention AH's computer games (that I've seen), do you anticipate doing videos on their computer games? If not, can you recommend a channel that has? Funny enough, some other channels have mentioned AH Atari 2600 games which I totally forgot about.
Yes, I'm looking to do a standalone video on Avalon Hill's computer games when I'm done the regular series. Stay tuned, as I will endeavor to get it out by the end of the year. Each of these videos takes a lot of time to research and write
@@LegendaryTactics Oh that's great and I'm looking forward to that. Although probably outside of the scope of your channel, GenXGrownup here on YT did a review of an AH Atari game called WallBall. Kind of a 3D version of breakout and seemingly ahead of its time. I totally forgot that AH did some Atari games.
War at Sea was my gateway game, going from that to Flat Top a year later was a steep climb and I fell immediately, Victory in the Pacific was an easier game. I did come back to Flat Top a few years later and enjoyed it. I can't believe you didn't mention Stellar Conquest, I think it was the first Space 4X game, way before Twilight Imperium was even an idea. I believe it was the inspiration for Microprose's Master of Orion of the 90's.
The original came out in 1975, but Avalon Hill didn't publish it until 1984. So it will be in part 5 of the series, the next video which covers up to 1985. Stay tuned!
ERA-tuh? Wut dat? (it's eh-RAH-ta)
Great video, by the way. Just teasing you 🙂
I have always wondered how to say that exactly...
@@LegendaryTactics lol! I just learned this morning that the correct way to pronounce GIF (the file format) is like the peanut butter, Jif. Been saying it like the g in give forever.
Wizards quest was a great game!!
I have heard good things, I'd like to try it sometime!
Air Assault on Crete has about the ugliest cover of all time, but it was a great game. I got it at age 11 in 1978 and played it for many years. Because my copy suffered a cruel fate a few years back, I have kept an eye on eBay for a cheap copy.
I still have copies of Battleline games like Air Force and Dauntless from before AH took them over.
In fact, I still have or once owned just about every traditional wargame mentioned here.
While Rising Sun never made it, AH did eventually put out Empire of the Rising Sun in the mid 90s. It is basically the Advanced Third Reich system ported over to the Pacific with appropriate modifications. I have had it for nearly 30 years but never found anyone interested in it. Axis Empires: Dai Senso! Is far better and has hit the table several times.
I think Empire of the Sun is just so daunting to learn and play, most people were put off it, despite the fact it is a great game. Monster games always have and always will have that problem. Even with computer games, if I catch wind that it is a "time sink", I usually look elsewhere.
@@LegendaryTactics I understand your point of view, but I do love my monsters just as much as something simpler such as some of my old classics like PanzerBlitz or Afrika Korps.
As a veteran of two full campaigns of the beast known as Vietnam 1965-1975, I will wallow in the mud of vast complexity and length if others indulge me.
While I am happy with something simple like War at Sea or Victory in the Pacific, I equally enjoy mashing them together in the more recent Admirals' War with its dollop of added rules complexity . I am equally pleased playing Third World War Designer Signature Edition as individual theaters or all four together in a gargantuan epic struggle.
It all comes down to what one and one's friends enjoy and what everyone can commit to finishing.
Currently,I am a wargame omnivore enjoying the luxury of partial retirement that allows pursuit of game both large and small. I got into the monsters early on as a pampered preteen, but I had to largely set them aside during the working stiff grind and family man years. I have returned to the monsters with a vengeance at the onset of my golden years before incipient senility sets in and reduces me to struggling with Connect Four.
Ola! 💖😗
Como esta?
Do I remember Kevin Zucker saying in an interview that he doesn't play games, he only designs them?
It's entirely possible. Volko Ruhnke, in our interview, said to "Think of three things - playing games, designing games, and having a life. You can only pick two!"
Martin Wallace has often said the same thing too about his.
Whatever happened to that Alan R. Moon? I always figured he'd do ok for himself.
After one designs a game like Ticket to Ride, perhaps one kicks back and retires? I'll have an update in the final episode of the series....
Wizard's Quest is way better than RISK. ...it doesn't have the game ruining bottle necks like Australia
Yes, I'd like to try it!
While I like the history, going through sooooo many individual games makes this video drag compared to the other videos..
Yes, I know - I did what I could to be succinct, but they published so many games in this period. I appreciate you sticking it out!
Statis Pro wasn’t as accurate as Big League Manager
Interesting! In what ways was big League manager more accurate?
@@LegendaryTactics it operated on an exact % basis. Dice or spinner 1-100