$7 Vs $1,000 Engine Bearing Measurement Tools - Plastigage vs. Sunnen Dial Bore Gage
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ย. 2024
- Do you really need to spend a lot of $ to check bearing clearances?
I didn't know the answer to this question until now.
Plastigage: $7
Sunnen Dial Bore Gage: $1,000
Sunnen Setter for Bore Gage: $1,500
Mitutoyo Micrometer: $200
This video is part 2ish of this engine's build.
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ABOUT PAPADAKIS RACING:
The Papadakis Racing team began drifting in 2004 and is the most winning team in Formula Drift history, earning the 2015 title with driver Fredric Aasbo, as well as backto back championship titles with driver Tanner Foust in 2007 and 2008. The Rockstar Energy Drink / Nexen Tire Toyota Corolla Hatchback is the latest competition build from the Hawthorne, California, based team.
Team owner Stephan Papadakis is a legend of sport compact racing who began building his reputation in the 1990s with the first front-wheel drive, tube-chassis drag car in the U.S. The team earned multiple records and championships in the discipline, turning in elapsed times and trap speeds previously thought unattainable in front-drive drag cars. Papadakis' successes in front-wheel drive were matched by his efforts in rear-wheel drive when he campaigned a Honda Civic that became just the fifth car to join the NHRA's Sport Compact 200 MPH club - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Another excellent video for experts to ZERO knowledge visitors.
The best part is:
no self grandiose chatter, plugs, product placement, irritating banter, unneeded tech vernacular...etc
Just a cool ass guy talking in layman's terms. He knows how to appeal to people - it's quite obvious and always has been.
You said exactly what I was thinking 👍😊
Amen, dude. Similar to the Dunning-Kruger effect, this site is full of people who just barely know enough to be competent or who straight up only know the basics, but who talk the loudest and make the biggest gestures. They're all putting in so much energy stressing about how to get more followers, more sponsors, more clicks and more time in the spotlight, but they aren't putting energy or time into learning their craft. Meanwhile, the people who know so so so much and have decades of experience behind them are not worried about trying to prove how much they know: they just know, and they believe in sharing information so that others can save time by not having to make the same mistakes. I live on the other side of the planet but when I hear "Papadakis" my brain instantly thinks "six second Civic" (and that was, what, 2003-2004 or something?) and yet here he is, The Man Himself, teaching me once again that cheap tools aren't necessarily bad, and that the level of precision can be relative to your expectations for the project.
Agreed. Good informational vids come from people who know how to share their knowledge in the absolutel most basic of basic ways possible. Stefan is one of those people.
Completely agree. He’s killing it with these videos. This is exactly the stuff I like watching.
Papa is the perfect example of humble excellence. He lets his work speak for itself
Building a small block chevy and just picked up $7 worth of plastigage and $993 worth of beer! Thanks Papadakis Racing!
+23 TH-cams to you good Sir.
So, in other words. dont trust any engine build you do after all that beer?
@@itsjustnopinionok You use it in the order you buy it. He's good to go.
beer? More like a new set of forged pistons
you should always use both... i use a mic that i trust and a snap guage inside the mains mostly to double check roundness but yea there's no amount of expensive tools that will replace plastiguage and no amount of plastiguage will replace a competent measurement especially when talking about roundness and even an out of calibration mic can confirm roundness of the mains rods and journals then u just need the plastiguage to check clearance
I made a mistake when reading the plastigage near the end. Should have said 15 or 16 ten thousands. It was late when I recorded the voice over. :)
Good work tho man
Those who may have noticed it likely knew what you meant anyway, via the context. There's always somebody in the comments who's pedantic enough to point out that kind of error, but for those of us who mentally and emotionally graduated high school and can have an adult conversation without needing to attack every slip of the tongue, this was an excellent Micrometry 101 lesson. I never would have thought of making the bore gauge "do the math for me" but as soon as I heard those words the concept clicked into place in my head. No matter how much I think I know, I always learn something new from your videos, and I'm really grateful to you for sharing your wealth of knowledge and wisdom with the world for free.
will you do the full build series? thank you kind sir for the shared knowledge
I was going to say... I've never built a 2j but i feel like something is off here lol
I saw it..But who i'm I to question LOL.At least you stood up
So a cylinder of wax is within .0003 of a thousand dollar tool. I'd say that's pretty damn accurate, and good enough for home-gamers.
actually it was right on he misread it.
Dont forget the SUNNEN causes a slight error, too. So not the complete error is actually caused by the plastigage.
Actually, within units of scientific notation, both measures were identical.
Three tenths of a thousandth. So basically one third of one thousandth off. That’s nothing. Almost. I’ve always used plasti gauge with perfect success.
I would actually trust the plastigauge before the instrument. The number of potential error sources is way smaller.
Nice! Just picked up some plastigage. Now all I need is a 2JZ... and some tools.... and shop.
😄 Classic
lol one step at a time. You're ahead of me.
I have the 2jz, but not the plastigage :P
@@PenkillerDIY And I have no 2JZ, no Plastigage and also no Shop. Dammit. :D
Well, I do have the weaker german counterpart, M52B28. Also Inline 6, and, well, thats it :D
Well, you're ahead of me. I don't even have a car.
The key point you made at the very end - if you are not calibrating your high-end tools, the plastigauge may be more accurate.
@bobwatters Mains being out of alignment isn't a thing that ever happens sorry ! And plastigage wouldn't pick it up anyway!
@bobwatters Lmao! Line boring and honing can't be done out of alignment enough to be an issue they are purpose built machines for that job alone. So not necessary to check! Especially with plastigage that won't measure any misalignment ! A few thousandths out and the crank wouldn't turn.
I went to school almost 20 years ago for automotive mechanics. We learned to use plastigage when measuring bearing clearances. From what I understood the main reason you would want to check the clearances to A) make sure everything was even and B) if something was way out of spec you could investigate as to why and correct the issue before you do the final assembly, fire it up, and realize you have a problem - when it's probably too late.
After watching this video, and what I have learned in the past ...
If all you did was build engines all day long, it might be better to invest in the tools, if you're only building one engine every now and then, plastigage is the way to go.
Exactly 👍, that’s exactly what I was thinking, I believe if you’re building engines most of the time at the sh op, is better to invest on good measuring tools, Mitutoyo 👌
I'm obligated to leave a thumbs up here. I've built many engines and I've used both Plastigage and Chinese bore gauges and micrometers, and I've always seen similar results, but since I dont have any high end measuring tools I always wondered how accurate it all was. This confirma what I had hoped. Big thanks for doing this.
For an average joe plastic gauge is sufficient , high end tools are for business or very high performance engine. lost my damn mind with the imperial system tho.
62mm vs 2.440945 inches.
OTOH, since we're not using fractions, it doesn't really matter what the system is. It's just decimals on the right side of the separator.
@@AnttiBrax Too much number
Dont forget the SUNNEN causes a slight error, too. So not the complete error is actually caused by the plastigage.
@@AnttiBrax but it does matter because US industry wastes millions every year on conversion errors and mistakes from an inferior measure.
okleydokley That’s true, but honestly there’s not much the average joe can do about it, so I’ve just gotten used to both systems.
Very nice!
At work, there's a nice Starrett mic that we use for assembling traction motors. We keep it set to 8" max, as that's the maximum diameter of the axles.
There are then standard axle cuts and standard oversized bearings (up to 4/32") that are used.
A few weeks ago while building a motor (it had been a while since I'd built one), a coworker mentioned the mic was off when they'd built the last... however many motors.
Apparently I was the only person who knew the mic could be zeroed out, and the only person who knew how to do it...
Long story short- whatever you use to measure clearances, know what you're measuring, know how to do it. If you don't know what you're doing, ask questions. Even if you think is a dumb question, ASK. That "dumb" question can keep you from making a potentially very costly mistake.
A dumb question is the one not asked ;)
This was an easy sub. Guy knows his stuff! Great info here.
Every video I watch from this channel leaves me with a nice feeling of actually learning and understanding what is going on.
Keep it up guys, love it!
No bogus EDM music, clear narration, highly technical points, great camerawork (no shaky cellphone handheld potatocam) and great content! Subscribed!
Another great idea for a video. Also, like others have said, thank you for being straight to the point. No intros, no ads or product placement is nice
measurement tools are so intriguing to me. that micrometer is amazing.and the plastigage is pretty amazing itself as well, science is incredible.
Awesome! I love learning this kinda stuff!
Tradictor
Thanks for making this video! I'm doing my first rebuild and I was really stressing about spending hundreds more on tools to measure everything and had decided to just change it with plastigauge and now I feel a lot better.
This has to be one of the most professional, relevant and informative channels right now.
I've been a backyard mechanic for 15 years, feeding my track lifestyle. I am in the process of learning internals. Thank you for the awesome video!!
This is where you appreciate your machinist
Having used the Plastigage in my own engine builds, I found this both fascinating and instructive. Long may you run!
I work in metrology, and I came in, pitchfork in hand, ready to lay a smackdown, but alas, there's no smackdown to be given. Great video. It's good to see someone who's in the business of building engines demystifying the process.
I've built a few engines just off of plastigauge. Never had any problems. It's the greatest simplicity ever.I love this channel! I subscribed.
Excellent video. I'm already forward to your next 2j installment.
How the hell did you do that, a time machine?
Sharp, to the point and zero waffle - exceptionally well done
Let’s be real here, knowing how to use your tools is worth more than any tool. Measuring bores can be screwed up just from measuring at different temperatures.
Hence the reason for calibrating your tools before EVERY job. 👍
Also... if the block was bored and honed with a deck plate that will also change the measurements.
Unless you're building a 9,000rpm engine or higher I think most DIY tools will suffice :-)
Hi Stephan, I'm just a regular guy looking to learn and really enjoy all your videos. Thanks so much for letting us hang out with you I find it both educational and enjoyable.
This is probably one of my favorite videos I have seen in awhile.
I have been wondering this exact question for quite some time. I have also been eyeing engine blueprinting tools for when I get into rebuilding my own engines in the future. Admittedly, I am looking at cheaper models of course.
This lets me know that I don't necessarily need to invest in the tools to do certain measurements right. Also that I can use plastigage as a backup to make sure any equipment I do get is functioning to a minimum level as well. I'm someone who definitely likes peace of mind when it comes to precision equipment.
Thanks for this awesome video and I can't wait for future installments!
i used both, a mitutoyo holtest inside bore micrometer (most expensive tool in my tool box) and plastigauge. Then i took parts to a machine shop to see what they came up with, and we got pretty close to each other. This was on the ARP main cap bolts (tighter torque specs than oem for the 6G72TT engine). As always, awesome content Team Papadakis Racing! Remember to calibrate those precision measuring tools within one year before your engine builds or every 5000 uses (whichever comes first). Do an engine break-in, do a UOA (used oil analysis) report to confirm wear metals are at or under the universal averages for that engine or vehicle using that specific engine.
I'm not even a mechanic but videos like this are so satisfying!
If the crank is bent by .001", the plastigage will give a larger or smaller clearance depending on where the crank is oriented, mostly on the center main. Need to be aware of the crankshaft run out. You can still use plastigage, but take the measurements twice, one the high end and the other on the low end. Given that the crank is within specs of course. (If the crank is bent more than .001", for high rpm/high HP applications I recommend getting the crank machined and going with over size bearings for sure.
Someone using plastigage likely doesn't have the ability to measure the TIR of crank & journals in-house. I'd say the best most could get would be roundness by micing a journal at the smallest angle increment they can w/o throwing the mic at a wall in frustration, and cylindricity of each journal by performing this measurement at each end & the middle, of every journal.
Basically, in an application where one wants to "get it right" by having stuff checked for being in spec then just do what you advised & go the extra mile to have everything blueprinted/machined (if needed). Then if you want(or need) to build it yourself buy the bearings that will get you in the ballpark & use plastigage to choose a final bearing size for each journal (if available). That's the way Nissan did it on the original vg30 motor we rebuilt for my 300zx, so that's how we did it. Doing it with a bore gage would have been great but the shop wanted nothing to do with that process so we had to do it ourselves with plastigage.
Just to add (sorry, Google wouldn't let me edit), when working with what you have & you know your journals are round you could use plastigage at various crank angles to check for uniformity. Then any nonuniformity would indicate a wowed crankshaft.
So, what you're saying to do is use the plastigage twice. Take it once, then rotate the crank 90 and do it again?
@@norman_sage2528 You would rotate the crank 180. The idea is to measure the clearance at the high and low spots of the crank. You would have to know where on the crank the high and low occur by measuring the run out with a dial indicator and marking the spots with a sharpie. Then you can orient the crank in the block to plastigage it. If you have anymore questions let me know.
@@Iceberg86300 Since the bearings are in a fixed position then hand spinning the crank and using a 10ths test indicator on each journal without the bearing caps in place will quickly show any slight bend or out of roundness in the crank. $35 for a cheap one or $130 + for something that can be trusted is cheap insurance. It won't show if all the bearing bores are straight and bored round though. But Plastigage can't show that problem either.
your videos have taught me alot. also gave me the confidence to tackle my own engine build. currently building a vq35 for low compression 8.8:1 for twin GT2860RS .86 AR turbos. Thanks for all the time you spend helping us backyard mechanics realize our dreams.
Been a fan for year's, since old school Import Tuner days, glad to see you are still kicking ass in the automotive world, keep up the amazing content.
I've played need for speed underground and didn't understand what an engine blueprint really is and why it's a performance upgrade until this informative video came up. Nice job!
Anyone else want to just chill out and grab a beer with Stephan!? And of course ask him plenty of car and racing questions 😅 Seems like a down to earth guy
I have used the mic/bore gauge method for years,and plastigage occasionally. I have always thought the plastigage was a reliable measuring method IF done carefully. Thank you for confirmation of that. EXCELLENT VIDEO.
Excellent, and very much appreciated. (Just for fun, as an automotive machinist years ago, I used inside mics and snap gauges with outside mics...compared the readings. Had to do it repeatedly to get a consistent clearance... took forever and required infinite patience, but that's what it took. Was right up my wheelhouse...)
I would like to know more about the pink lintless rags. Brand, where to get etc. Thanks
These videos are seriously awesome. They could be used in schools
love smashty-guage. when you factor in the possible errors in the extra steps in setting up the equipment...it’s fine for everything a home-builder is going to need
Thank you for your time and effort showing me this, even though I feel like a dog watching someone putting shelves up. I will be rewatching this vid(many times)..... in the hope that one day I understand.
I like what he said at the end, something to the effect of...If the tool isn't calibrated, then the Plastigage would be the best bet. In addition, we're talking an error margin of .0003" at most. Very good video. Great Job!
Like your videos. I’m new to engine building, but I might have a tip for you that may increase the accuracy of Plastigauge. I think the problem with how most use Plastigauge is that the crankshaft is sitting on the bearings dry. Putting motor oil on the bearing surfaces will not only help in measuring, but it will also prevent contamination from the Plastigauge getting on the bearings and make sure it sticks only on the crankshaft. It doesn’t sound like much, but I bet that thin layer of motor oil will make up the difference. I tried it this way and it was more accurate to my bore gauge and it was repeatable.
Loved the shot where the camera's mounted on the rachet and then you turn the bolt!
Sir very clean job, top notch,,,👌💪
The main reason to have a bore gauge is to measure the concentricity of the main caps specially if the engine spun a bearing or more, and a line bore is in order, and then to double check after the machine shop,
The other use of a bore gauge is to measure clearances 45deg from the vertical and 3/8inch from the parting line to make sure that you are within the desired range all around.
The ultimate method is to measure your desired clearance ranges with a bore gauge, then check with a plastigauge not for clearances but to make sure that all the journals have the same width of the plastigauge strips, this is an indication that all the caps share the same center.
Would love to see a video about choosing right bearing clearances for street, drift or drag use.
Also ringcaps for pistons.
Love your videos :)
Too many variable. In general high power engines = more clearance.
I can't tell enough but I'm astonished by your methods... your workshop is 7x cleaner and more organized than my county hospital's maternity ward...
Another great video!
You’re a great mechanic and teacher. you’ve taught me a lot and it’s helped me in tech school and working on my own stuff. I admire your recent builds and your old Honda stuff...I have a h22 prelude. Keep doing what ur doing! Love the content
I was just glued to my screen for 6 minutes watching this video. Keep it coming
Your inspection tools are amazing, wish mine were as great as that. I think this video shows that if you want to blueprint an engine, use high end inspection tools, but for general rebuild plasti-gage is actually not only just fine, but also will save time and money.
Love how your vids are short, to the point, & always very educational. Just great man.
A GREAT video, no fluff, all clear and to the point. Plastigage is A-OK
This was really interesting. I'd like to see more content regarding specialist tools and how to use them correctly. Also, as someone who works in a GLP / GMP certified facility, the pre-use function checks melted my heart a little!
I admire your level of professionalism. Your tool collection mimics that of some Aviation type precision tools also! Great content here for damn sure!
Mr P leaving his legacy, God bless ya bro (a fellow engine builder)
I worked in a production engine rebuilding shop in the early 80s. We did not use either plasti gauge or measuring tools. What we did was cut a small piece of .003" thick feeler gauge stock into a rectangle piece 1/4x 3/8. Assemble the Maine bearings and crank torquing all the journeys. See if the crank will turn. Once you confirm it spins remove one journal at a time and put in the piece of feeler gauge on top of the crank journal. Torque the journal see if it spins if it does remove he feeler gauge stock and move on to the next one repeat the procedure. You know there is no more than .003" clearance but greater than none. You really don't care what that clearance is as long as there is some and it is less than .003". Most people don't have the measuring tools or the skill to use them.
Absolutely love the content! Now I’m gonna end up obsessing over my non blueprinted garage built 1J and build myself a 2J to replace it....
Thank you papadakis racing! See you at Long Beach 🙏🏿
Your hand writing is very nice I must say!!
Thanks for showing this. Good tip to make sure your micrometers are calibrated as well! It definitely gives me more confidence in plasti-gauge
Just another SUPERB video! I knew nothing about engines but now I'm really interested.
I love this videos! Greetings from Argentina
I really like content of this type, and of the first video of yours I saw on printing an intake manifold.
Your well equipped, spotlessly clean workshop and skilled engineer narrating clearly, combined with good videography, lighting and editing make your videos a joy to view!
Whilst I have no interest in drifting, your superb workshop content is very much appreciated.
I'm super picky about who I follow on TH-cam. Your videos have been so precise, interesting and inspiring that I'm always waiting for a new one. (I also rebuilt my 2JZ on my own, and I got similar clearance values)
I love this type of content I'm from Brazil and thank you very much.
Thank you PapadakisRacing
Please do more of these engine building/measurement videos!!
As someone that works in a machine shop its cool to see how you do certain tasks different then I do, makes me better
What would you do differently? Not a professional when it comes to machine work, just curious.
I loveeeee your channel. I learn so much watching these and your commentary is easy to understand and you clearly know exactly know what you’re talking about
Excellent video, very methodic and knowledgeable without nonsense, just the way I like it.
Please make many more of these. The knowledge shared is invaluable
I have no idea what you're even doing but it was fascinating to watch
The crank shaft is very slightly smaller than the hole it sits in, and while the engine is running, oil fills the gap, thereby lubricating the engine. How big that gap is is critical to how the engine is going to run and last, so knowing, and possibly, adjusting that gap will allow you to be sure your engine is going to run well for a long time. What he's showing here are two different ways to check that gap.
He makes me wanna cry sometimes with all this useful information.
Plastigage has never led me wrong.. Excellent explanation
Excited for the 2JZ engine build!!!!
Plastigage can also detect an out of roundness condition. .By placing the Plastigage at different spots you can compare the results to see if the stuff squishes the same amount. If the Plastigage is placed at the same position but the crank is rotated 90 degrees and tested again the results can be compared. If they are not the same then the crank journal is probably out of round. A standard micrometer which just measures between two points CANNOT show all types of out of roundness.
Plastigage is an awesome tool in the hands of an experienced engine builder. Done.
Great video, I'm tearing down an old V6 TDI atm and this has got me wanting to check it's clearances.
Simple. Smart. Precise. Very nice
I love your videos man. The level of honesty & experience is wonderful to soak in.
Please do videos on how to use all sorts of gauges & tools.
Sir,
Simply... thanks for taking the time to perform this test. Very informative. 👍🏼😎
Loved the video. Never saw a setup quite like that. I just used a mic to set my dial bore gauge. Dial the mic to where you wanted it and zero it on the lowest point. As someone else pointed out, the dial bore gauge may give you a false reading. Improper use of it, not finding the true center, or slightly digging into the bearing could alter true measurement by a slight amount.
I'd love to see a video on using precision measuring tools!
TH-cam has dozens of videos about the subject including one's by Starrett and Mitutoyo.
Best videos on TH-cam right now
Killer videos man. Loving the no bs approach.
Excellent video! I really would like to have a bore gauge and precision micrometer but I can’t convince myself to spend that kind of money for the few times I build an engine. Plastigage is a good way to sanity test my clearances and I have a lifetime worth of the stuff.
Thanks for taking the time to make the video!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks! Makes me feel good about using plastigage in the past for engine builds.
Thank you for doing this comparison. I was a little apprehensive about using plastiguage when I rebuild my MZR DISI. Thanks!!
Awesome video! Great to learn things in a simple, straight forward way from someone with a passion for the topic and the joy of teaching it to others!!!!!
As someone who does aerospace machine work. The cheap tools are generally fine and accurate, but only for short term. There's a reason I and all my co workers have high end expensive tools. We need them to be reliable 100% of the time. But for the guy building an engine in their garage and only needs high accuracy measuring equipment occasionally spending thousands on bore gauges and mics isn't worth it at all when the cheap alternatives are just fine.
What kind of stuff do you do at your job??
I find it funny that it’s a precision gage block...who calibrated that gage block? Who certified it. Is it traceable? Sorry. I’ve been machining aerospace for the last 10 yrs, also worked in a large companies gage room.
Thank you!!!!!!!
I have had this argument more times than I care to remember with so called “engine builders” that love to admonish me for using plasti-guage, but I don’t own the high end tool to do the comparison and prove them wrong.
Wow!! I've watch some engine building videos but this by far is some rich information, thanks for the education.
Really good content here.
Only issue I see. Having a thousand dollar bore gage tool has more applications!
I bought a starrett tools. Now I have them for life.
Always come back to them in the end.
Again. Great video !
Larry
Good vid! Some pretty tight bearing clearances.
Standing ovations! Thank you for another really good video! No BS, just straight onto the matter. A BIG thumb up.
Working in a motorcycle performance shop (SA) i can tell you we use plastigauge all the time. Never had any issue getting the right specs. Just hard to find 'green' around these parts....
A few years ago when I was 14 I talked my dad, uncle and grandpa out of $1,500 collectively and bought a 1978 Motorhome.
Why did I buy a used motorhome? Because it had a big block Chevy and transmission. It was really tired. I spent the summer earning the money for the billet crank, pistons and rods. Uncle bought me new AFR heads and a Comp Cams cam and roller/spring set.
I used Plastigauge putting it together. Puts down 674 HP at the wheels in my 65 Chevelle. 2 years later it’s still going strong 😊
My dad rebuilt hundreds of engines. Used Plastigauge religiously to check his clearances. I don't know that he ever had a problem with bearings due to clearances in the decades he spent machining engines.
steelmesh English not your first language? I can help if you need it. I don’t mind helping those in need.
steelmesh At the time I didn’t have enough money for a 454 LSX. So I got the motor home because it had a 454 big block. I stripped the engine out of itZ rebuilt it with race parts and jammed it into my Chevelle.
You honestly didn’t put two and two together like the other guy did? 🤷🏼♀️
@@chloehennessey6813 He's going to need ointment for that burn.
steelmesh All you had to do was say that you’re a little slow with English.
Everyone else grasped what I said. Than there you. 🤷🏼♀️😂
Great content. Always wondered how close it was doing it the “right” way versus the cheap way. I’ve got 100+ passes in my stock bottom end 6.0 LS making 900-1000hp, and I used plastigauge to check what kinda clearance I had with stock 160k mile bearings. Rods and mains were all in the .0015-.0018 range IIRC
In here after posting this in a supra page today. Have a ton of facebook mechanics basically insulting plastigauge guys saying to start over and buy a mic. I believe in papadakis before I believe in some random guy on the internet. Keep it up 👍
Hey Steph!!! Thanks for the video I have always debated about getting a dial bore gauge. This video explains everything in detail!!!