Leaking new warm flat roof problems
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ม.ค. 2022
- This new flat roof was leaking from the day it was installed. It's a liquid applied roofing system over insulation. The roofer did not install the liquid roofing system correctly; he didn't apply enough of the liquid over the reinforcement and, as you can see, water has penatrated through and now the insulation is wet. Unfortunately there is no way of getting the water out of the roof, so the roof had to be stripped and we had to start again. Further to this, due to circumstances, I didn't do any trial holes into the roof before we started the work, and assumed the flat roof was not insulated. As the work progressed we cut into the roof and started to insulate the sides of the roof; whilst doing so we found that the roof had already been formed as a cold roof, and insulation had been installed at some point even before the customer lived in the house. We were in lockdown for the first time and things were stressful for the customer; access to the property and to the flat roof was complicated, so the customer just wanted to get the flat roof finished and back together. So it was decided to remove the old warm roof insulation and just overlay the roof with EPDM rubber. If the timing had been better we would have formed a new warm roof over the top. As you can see, we cleaned the roof and then added a nice new Rubberbond rubber roof over the top, forming a new rubber flat roof.
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Steven Dickinson
London flat roofing
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Great video and explanation. Sounds like your customer was easy to work with which always makes a huge difference when troubleshooting.
Yes, a really good customer that wanted a good job and he was very understanding
I wish you guys came out as far as cambridge. I'm paranoid about whether the random roofer I'll need to employ will actually do a proper job or not
If only the USA roofing trades cared so much about quality as you guys in the uk wow. The scaffolding alone Says it all. Rarely do roofers set scaffolding if ever on residential job. When I travel in Europe I see the age and the well maintained level of buildings hundreds of years old. Starts with a solid roof
I was amazed to be in America and see how bad some of the infrastructure is. I was going over one bridge and I could see the reinforcing bars through the concrete that had been breaking away. This would never be allowed in the UK. That said we are getting worse and worse and things are really getting bad over here.
Nice one Steve 👍
Glad you enjoyed it
In the scenario where you needed to insulated between the deck and the wall, is it ok to just insulate between the timbers, and where do you typically insulate over/down to: the inside skin, outside skin, or cavity please?
Thank you for the excellent ongoing, easy to understand content!
Inside skin and perhaps the csverty if you want to
Hi Steve
Your videos are fantastic for learning, really useful. I'd really like to know, whats the software you use for 3D modelling of your roofs? I'm looking for something to do all kinds of projects,,, decks... roofs.. stud walls and remodelling etc.
I use SketchUp 2017 the free version hard to find now
Hi Steve been watching your videos for a while and very informative. I have a late 1960s dorma bungalow with I suspect very little to no insulation the roof is leaking slightly and needs redoing the deck is tongue and groove boards and solid what would you recommend. Obviously I would like some insulation.
Warm roof the deck is good so just go over it
When you are changing a cold roof to a warm roof with open sides similar to the roof in this video, I assume you would need to add a wooden edge which you could then attach the fascia and roofing trims etc, however I can’t find much information on this! Is there anything you need to consider when doing this to ensure the roof doesn’t fail?
Yes you need to make sure you insolate from the top of the wall to the bottom of the roof deck between the joists around the perimeter
Steve, a bit off topic but on a cold roof how would you ventilate a roof light upstand? Just drill the hell out of it and hope for the best?
You make an insulated upstand out of OSB and insulation its not hard
I would be interested to get you views on using a big SIP panels as the roof structure and insulation (200mm thick). Just putting the EPDM on top.
This is something I was asked to look into last week by a customer he sent me this "Bit of contrasting info sips.org say that cold roof venting is not a requirement but a "sensible extra measure", Whereas Kingspan say it is a requirement" presently I would vent it
@@SteveRoofer Perhaps I did not make it clear. Sorry!
The SIP panel is the roof. There are no joists.The rest on exposed beams. There will be furring strips between the beams and SIP panels to get the fall. Inside The Plasterboard is fixed to more furring strips to get it level leaving a small gap between the PB and the SIP
The Dew point will be in the middle of the insulation of the sip panel. so you do not need a vapour barrier. (although it will all be glued and taped so no moisture would not get between the joints of the SIP.
Its is really just a hot roof with no joists.
SIP roofs are kind of hybrid roof to begin with. Warm roof has insulation on top of the structure and cold roof has insulation inside the structure. Now you could treat OSB on either side of SIP as an insulation (wood is an insulation) and call whole SIP as an insulation however OSB will be used to connect to walls using structural screws and timber. So OSB on top of the SIP is considered as roof sheeting hence for non ventilated structure like SIP from the building regs prospective they are classed as cold roof. So you will need battens and 12mm plywood with EPDM on top of it to create the ventilation gap.
And in 20 years time you can replace the damaged epdm/roof sheathing without worrying about super structure beneath it.
@@piyush3549 I have never seen a warm roof with the top layer of OSB/Ply being raised on batons with an air gap. Thats a cold roof.
The only issue I can foresee is if the roof leaks the SIP panel top OSB sheet may be damaged. But even on standard warm roof would suffer with that and can be mitigated with other systems.
Remember that a SIP panel has 2 sheets of OSB and the insulation in-between. they are one homogenous unit.
All I will be doing is removing the need and space for the joists as they will be replaced by other support elements. The SIP panels can have very high load ratings that match and exceed those of the normal joist based roofs.
@@logik100.0 I completely understand where you are coming from. We build with similar system where we have two layers of 18mm spruce plywood on both sides, interior and exterior with cavity is fully filled with rockwool insulation. We have done a kitchen extension with epdm goes straight on the exterior face of spruce plywood and it’s perfectly okay. We don’t do this anymore and add additional layer with ventilation cavity as an extra insurance policy and much easier to get building inspector to agree with us. By the way the system we use is pretty much same as WikiHouse.
For SIP and batten for roof see th-cam.com/video/9nCg5DsF6Ow/w-d-xo.html
Hi Steve , interesting video. I was under the impression as long as the r value of the outer insulation was higher than the internal insulation that you would not need to remove it? Or is this because the insulation is inside the room not the roof space that this doesn't apply?
The is rough roule of thum that as long as you have 75% of the insulation on the outside you can leave some inside
Ive got one of these EPDM roofs looks like on a warm roof as its in a loftspace/dorma. It's delimanted into spots on the windy side due to win. Can it be repaired and salvaged or does it need replacing. The roofs only 2-4 years old.
send some photos over let me have a look
@@SteveRoofer Will do Steve. Just had a quote to do the whole roof he said £85 a meter, but the quote ended up at 2.7k before scaffolding.
Hi steve, have been binge watching your videos, and I have a question which you may find interesting. I have a cold roof with a new EPDM roof on which i was planning to have spray foam insulated, however, after watching many videos and reading many scare stories, I've now decided not to use the spray foam and would prefer to upgrade it to a warm roof. Building control agreed.
You mention in many videos you can use the existing felt if it is in good order as a VCL, so my question is can i use the new EPDM roof as a VCL? (I appreciate I will be putting another new EPDM over the insulation, but the question relates to the existing (installed last year) covering. I'm reluctant to remove a new EPDM which is weathertight and replace with a "sheet of polythene". Can it stay and put a vcl on top? is keeping it really going to cause a problem?
Good question im not sure how EPDM acts as a AVCL yes it will be air tight but how good is it at stopping vapor transfer? it needs to have a Vapour resistance of greater than 530 MNs/g if it has then yes. Please email me if you find any dater on its vapour resistance it will save me trying. However cutting out all the paperoek the fact that its airtight and it probably has got some sort of vapour resistance it would probably work. Question is will you sleep tightly at night not knowing if you did do it ?
Well Steve, not much luck with trying to find the vapour restistance values of EPDM. What I did learn was the fleece backed is bitumen glued hence why it has the higher value. I discussed it all in detail with the local building Control, and they agreed they didn't think I would need to remove the exisiting perfectly waterproof and intact EPDM covering, however as belt and braces approach they recommended adding a VCL before putting down the warm deck insulation.
Hi Steve roofer
We have just constructed a block and beam flat roof on top of our garage we will use the roof as a walk on patio what’s the best way to finish it off
What I have done so far after block and beam is layer of black jack Then on top of that vapour barrier then insulation then another vapour barrier now shall I finish it off with a layer of concrete or tarmac or anything else
Any suggestions are welcome thanks
Basically you're making a warm roof on top of this and any roof coverings long as it is waterproof and suitable for you to walk on
Thanks for your reply Steve
To make it water tight just below the concrete Epdm rubber membrane has been advised will that be ok and how shall a finish off epdm membrane on the edges and trims and corners on all sides which curves up and then goes over the block do I need to pull and stretch and secure it to the outside block
@@RayRay-vt7hc so we will consider is thermal bridging which means the insulation needs to wrap around the concrete slab or in your case the block and beam and then you trim it with your waterproofing membrane easier said than done however that's the only way that you can successfully stop thermal bridging. You're basically in encapsulating the roof structure
you shouldn't apply screws to the top of your perimeter metal. Even with mastic you are creating holes in your membrane on a water ledge. Stripping in perimeter metal or using an edge shield fascia would be ideal.
👍🏋️♀️🔥
Thanks
What is the price of epdm
go to www.rubber4roofs.co.uk
Depends who your quoting for 😉
Just use a 3 layer torch on SBS no issues
Nothing wrong with felt
Was this a Cash job
Crack the tar pan up🔥😁pour and roll
@@master_Blaster91 coffin boiler pour and roll
But it was an awful mess underneath.
Yes it wasn't the best
I'm a flat felt roofer, this work wasn't a roofer at all just a chancer, bet he got the job because he was cheaper, if a registered company left work like this get them back or your money, guess not a proper company, should have used this company first but I bet it's the money , thay was cheaper , see it all the time good luck and sorry to see a bodge job yet again
OK thanks
It is disappointing that you didn't resolve the issues with the existing roof, that is not what I would have expected. Clearly the polyurethane insulation was defective and the vapour barrier was compromised. As there was no ventilation to the void then the least professional response was not to ignore it but to suggest and install a resolution. As it stands, because the original vapour barrier was ineffective then your EPDM roof covering would be the place where the condensation would occur.
Also, stuffing bits of EPS down onto the external wall was a bad thing to do. The EPS should never completely fill the cavity as it will encourage moisture migration from the external leaf even if the lead fascia was quite deep. EPS used in a cavity should be partial fill i.e. it should have a minimum of 25mm separation to the outer skin of the wall.
Yes disappointing for me as I like to do things correctly however I have to do what I'm told to do by the customer. As regards a cavity there was no caverty filled I was extending the insulation down to the wall below
A monkey could do that job people who put that fiber glass stuff down haven't a clue about flat roofs ever heard of 3 layers of touch on felt or ashfelt
3 layers of touch on felt or asphalt are still up there in the top 5 of roofing product getting someone to install them correctly is another problem