Zero Countersteer Drift: is it ACTUALLY Faster?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2024
- Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code TSRB for an extra 3 months free at surfshark.deals/TSRB
▶Enjoying the video? Subscribe! bit.ly/3wblXkC
▶Support the channel: / @tsrb
▶Join the Community: / discord
▶Follow me on Twitter: / simracingbloke
▶Music: • TSRB RECORDS: Drum & B...
▶MODS: / discord
If you want to go fast in an all wheel drive car, you need to learn the zero countersteer drift in sim racing titles such as Assetto Corsa, Gran Turismo or Forza, else you’ll be slow. Let me explain…
Because these big lumps of all wheel driven goodness so many moving part, this makes them heavy. So slowing down and getting turned into a corner can be a bit of a hassle.
Then when you try to power out of the turn, the front wheels are going to be steering and accelerating at the same time. And much like a front wheel drive car, this is too much for the tyres to handle and you'll end up under steering.
So unless you're driving off road - or are doing a 0-60 test, AWD cars will in general be far slower than rear wheel drive.
We need to employ a special technique. One that will allow us to carry more momentum into a turn by braking less. One that will point us towards the apex of the corner sooner - so we have a straight shot out of it. Totally removing any need to turn the wheel and initiate understeer. This is the zero countersteer drift.
0:00 Intro
00:08 The Zero Countersteer Drift
0:58 The theory
01:26 The anti-theory
01:57 Let's put it to the test
02:22 Sponsor
03:39 The Sweeper
04:10 The Hairpin
04:49 The Square
04:47 Double Hairpins
05:36 We need a race
05:52 The Race
07:06 Wtf just happened?
07:31 The test wasn't realistic
07:58 Lower temps, cooler drifts
08:24 What's the point?
09:25 When to do the drift
Hit the like, and maybe even subscribe button if you enjoyed the video!
MY SIM RIG:
▶Cammus Wheel Base bit.ly/3xMlRBi
▶Fanatec Shifter
▶Fanatec CSL Elite Loadcell Pedals
▶Heusinkveld Handbrake heusinkveld.com/shop/shifters...
▶ GTLite nextlevelracing.com/products/...
▶ Gloves amzn.to/3ua0PtG
▶Monitor amzn.to/3ERjNKQ
▶Oculus amzn.to/3kEc0Yr
▶GTX 1080 amzn.to/3CPbcGm
▶i5 8600k amzn.to/3i8x2gb
▶16GB DDR4 amzn.to/3ujkozV - เกม
"Its a preference of most to have controlled oversteer, then it be a surprise" finally someone understands and puts in into words!!!
I agree. Especially in winter with snow and ice i find its easier to control slides then to avoid them all together. Controlled Chaos is Easier then uncontrolled normality
This is me whoever ANYONE fans on porches handling. Yeah it's great until you say hi to the local oak tree
I have seen a lot of "Grip vs Drift" videos and... I am still waiting to see a video where they add "vs Both"
A technique where you mainly grip but also drift in some corners because it could give you an advantage
This is the first video I've seen that came close to it
and it taught me stuff, thank you very much
His channel should have something like that, I believe.
Drip?
Unless you're planning on time attack, Grip would almost always be the way to go. Not only does it use more of the tire for carrying you through the corner and accelerating, you also don't kill the tires after the first lap. Tire management is crucial in racing, which is why you don't see intentional drifts in tarmac racing
Watch the slip angle video
That's called using slip angle. . . It's already a thing that all top drivers use. . .
You can use it as a last second failsafe.
When you fail to brake on time just scandi-flick and pray to the spirit of Collin McRae to keep you safe from the wall 🙏
The description of emergency-brake
But most importantly - zero-counterstering drift feels sooo right, when you have a clean corner exist on straight wheels xD
Also it "felt right" to me only on dirt with powerful cars, on tarmac it feels slow (and usually after pulling this you see new rears in front of you), while someting that is not overpowered, well, lacks power to pull out fast enough.
slow tarmac corners are fine (as we also see on the vid) because you do have the power to pull out on lower gears, but yeah, anything fast is better taken normally.
also that's what we see in WRC, they drift slow corners and take fast ones normally. They're also on tight roads where slow corners are abundant, so that's why it happens a lot
The problem with this entire concept is the terminology itself. A drift by definition is causing oversteer at the entrance of a corner. What the drift car was shown doing is drifting into the corner, but powersliding out of the exit of the corner. If you watch the test with the two consecutive hairpins, you can see that the drift car won because it was actually gripping up well before the exits of the corner, allowing the advantage of higher entry speeds, and being pointed towards the apex sooner. Once you have the car pointed towards the apex, its up to your car control to decide if you're going to slowly powerslide out of the corner, or regain grip as soon as possible for maximum acceleration out of the corner.
to add to the "rally drivers slide because it's safer and easier to control", this was also prevalent in the 86 vs 86 final battle in initial D.
Shinji was so used to the course that he can practically "see" the other end of the corner being blocked in view by the grass and trees and can actually grip out of the corners, whilst Takumi had a hard time keeping up with him at the start.
He’s back!
Btw… a video on managing tire temps/durability for the duration of a race would be interesting
The drift method produces more total cornering force from the car but a much larger percentage of that larger cornering force vector is pointing rearwards versus grip method (i.e. less drift method which is less yaw-angle), adding significant drag to the car and the engine does not have the power to overcome this additional drag in anything faster than slow speed hairpin corners and so it is slower on average.
Your engine doesn’t need as much power if you set the rear to slide off power.
@@oppoaction If your rears are sliding, then you are going to have less power available to power out of the corner.
Hate to be that guy but tyres actually provide less grip/force once you reach a certain angle. If you are drifting, the tyres are already past that limit, so this produces less total force compared to standard cornering. The reason why it's faster in hairpin corners is because the limiting factor for those isn't grip (like regular corners) but yaw rate, aka how fast you can rotate the car to face the exit, so drifting will get the nose pointed towards the exit a lot sooner at the expense of maximum grip, which becomes better as a tradeoff the sharper the corner.
This is how I always imagined it, drifting carries consistent momentum which makes it the best in low speed corners, whereas grip driving needs braking initially but because of that it slowly builds up momentum past the apex and zooms out
Congratulations for 100k subs! 🎉🎉🥳🥳
Thank you!
This all depends on what is meant by "drifting." Since about the early-to-mid 2000's, "drifting" has come to mean what was previously known as "powersliding." In the parlance of racing drivers _before_ the advent of _The Fast and the Furious_ and "drifting" events, it meant driving a car through corners with all four tires at the slip angle of maximum cornering/accelerating/braking grip. This was called a "four-wheel drift." And for most of that time, the racing tires available were bias-ply, which necessitates a larger slip angle for maximum grip than radials. So drift was often noticeable to spectators and movie/TV cameras, if you were looking for it.
In practice, if you four-wheel-drift your car through a corner _right on_ the maximum-grip slip angle, yes, you should be getting through that corner the fastest your car can, assuming you used the correct racing line and entry speed. If, however, you just pitch the thing in sideways, sliding _way_ past the proper slip angle, you're just going to slow yourself down and burn up your tires in the process.
Remember to consider that generating maximum cornering grip entails getting all the _tires_ at the maximum-grip slip angle, not necessarily holding the steering wheel straight ahead.
The question was, "Zero Countersteer Drift: is it ACTUALLY Faster?" The answer to that is, "It might be, but not necessarily." The real answer you're looking for as a racer or sim racer is, _"Four-wheel_ drifting, done correctly, _is_ actually faster." (Rare exceptions not usually found on roadracing tracks might include special situations like turns so tight that "bootlegger J's" or "handbrake turns" are required to negotiate them.)
Thank you for your comment.
The art of rally is knowing when to drift, when to grip, and when to go flat out.
Overall, grip will in most cases be better overall, but there are some situations that taking the drift will be better.
the best is the mix of both
Awesome video, like always,, and congrats for 100k!
Excellent video, well put together, good explanations, editing commentary, GG !
Also, generally love the format.
Can we PLEASE see that lap again but with both grip and drift where ever it's faster?
Ive been playing racing games for most of my life. Started with Need for Speed High Stakes, but eventually found my way to sim racing in Grand Turismo 2. Along with that I have played many other racing sims such as MX unleashed, a few rally sims, Extreme Tokyo Racing, ect. The zero countersteer drift goes by many names. 4 wheel drifting, speed drifting, and the 1 I heard the most was "cheating" in the Forza community back in the day. It can be super effective, and not just with AWD cars. I have used it to drift FWD cars as part of a bet, RWD cars such as my speed drifter builds, and even on motorcycles. Using the technique comes almost second nature to me. Its great for when you come in too hot or if the opponent is running a blocking line that makes their car seem 3 cars wide. Like with any technique, its only as good as the person executing it. This is why the Forza bois of old use to complain that it was cheating. Because it is required for AWD cars a lot more and since they were rocketing ahead coming out of the turn, they saw it as unfair to use AWD. But the problem was never that AWD was unfair, but rather the technique of the opponent wasnt very good. It took time, but eventually I showed a few players how to be not only a better drifter, but a better racer. And it all started by winning a bet
Sim racing in gran turismo? What are you talking about?
@@Luka-gf1uv Yes, because it was classified as a sim racer back when it came out and at the time, it was THE sim racer. The popularity of the engine that ran the grew to the point other companies started using similar engines and even straight up copied the game. Despite the unrealistic crash physics, it was the most realistic simulator on the market. Nowadays that title goes to BeamNG Drive, which not only gas realistic handling physics for the cars, but also has soft body mechanics and simulates each component of the vehicle for the most realistic crashes in video games. No need to write all this down, there won't be a test on it
During a drift you go slower and go sideways which actually gives you more space to see plus you enter the corner earlier view wise and thus can see more ahead of you AND during a drift you can easier come to a standstill because all 4 tires will grip sideways the moment they stop spinning AND the car is 90% of the time in the correct angle in the corner
i love the music used in the race, fleetwood mac ftw
Love the added collision between the wrx and the 86
you can say that the wrx 86'd the 86
fire video. subscribed, liked, commented, clicked the bell, shared it to my family, played it at my grandma's funeral (she was resurrected), this video cured my stage four terminal cancer, my depression, and fixed my unrelenting habit to call shitting while constipated a souls-like experience. cant wait to see more
These videos must take so much work to get done
Too much 😅
Let’s go love the vids so hype on the new upload
Awesome video :) The trick is to live in between the two techniques. Never full drift, never full grip. Ride that edge for as long as you can until your nerves give out.
In between drift and grip is such a meme now 😂 it screams I have no idea what I'm talking about, next you're gonna call it slip angle
@@excite.winters As long as you feel good bro, you do you.
this is some high quality content im ngl im loving it
Congrats on the 100K subs mate
noticed it recently on gran turismo 7 with the audi tt race thats in sport mode right now ive never flicked it in and just used brakes to turn it
So in essence, its a case by case decider. while in theory static grip is always higher on a solid surface than sliding, practically, the offloading of the front tires and the additional rotational momentum can help the car with tight corners.
This is all about which corner deserves it. It's a momentary technique. It takes a master to know when. :)
Congrats for 100k❤
Thanks 😄
Great video with amazing visuals to show the differences!
Speaking solely from a Rally perspective. Drifting is bit like jumps. Sure they look cool and it's fun but it's not always the fastest solution depending on the stage section you're in. I found I greatly improved my times by reducing the amount of times I would drift. If I can stay in grip even in a hairpin, except really acute ones, I'll avoid drifting.
As the video did a great good job at showing. There are certain situations where a drift can out perform a car that maintains grip. The real key to getting killer times is knowing when you'll benefit from a drift (a short and controlled one ideally) versus slowing down enough to maintain grip throughout the corner. I don't think there's a one size fits all advice for this. You need to be familiar with the car you're driving and how it handles on the surface you're on.
Great video！！❤
btw I wonder how you record the compair videos ,is that you used two replay ghost at the same time or what？ it looks awesome🤯🤯
Congratulations for 100k subs
Cheers for the 100k!
Bunta was such a god at driving that he for the first time test drove an AWD car and mastered Countersteer drift and maybe that was the reason Takumi got smoked... BTW great video I tried this with the Lan Evo but I still need practice 😅
Your music selection is sick mate! I know you used to get to the raves 😂
nice driving bro. u pretty much got everything correct, i find that 4 wheel drifting is helpful in getting the rotation you need for a lot of corners on a touge without losing too much momentum, though on a track drifting tends not to help at all most of the time.
Nice comment bro, you got pretty much everything correct but touge is a lot slower and generally relies less on power.
@@excite.winters exactly
Is there any help by the AYC system on a Lancer Evo when doing the zero-countersteer? Saw it being done on Best Motoring a few times on Dunlop corner/ last corner and the exit speed seems not much different to others
I know in games with a decent handling model and tire heat, outside of doing it just for style points I mostly drift on tarmac if I'm attacking a corner super hard in order to make use of a gap I think won't exist long enough to grip it. Doesn't come up often but it's good to stay in practice for the few moments it does.
This means I've been doing this unconsciously in games with awd cars, and never noticed it was an actual technique?!
Will you be able to set a record time if you can do both in certain situations where one technique is faster than the other?
As a rally and RSF RBR fan, drifting/being just over the limit is faster but the margin for error is a lot smaller. As the rally saying goes, "in order to finish first, first you have to finish".
I loved that part in initial D where one of the guys looked at takumi and yelled "ZERO COUNTEER DORIFTU??!??!?!"
Believe it or not but max is able to aggressively rotate his car through the corners leading to light sliding, not drifting but sergio is unable to adapt to that characteristic of the rb car relying more heavily on maintaining grip. Fun bit of trivia
the tighter the corner the more efficient it will be to have the car point towards the inside of the corner
I like to think i do something similar to this in karting. Kind of a mesh between this and slip angle, even thougn the karts aint 4wd.
You’re backkkk
Would love a transcript of the music used, all bangers :)
hey great video! What track is this it looks really fun
I think this taps into the beginnings of neutral steer and extreme trail braking. Pros do most of their cornering with the pedals, not the wheel 👍
For the most part it comes down to physics, static vs. dynamic friction.
Please tell me on which track the tests were carried out?
Drift is actually grip here because you're not counter steering. However, drift here (which is actually grip) is only faster in the slow speed corners. If you look at the amount of steering lock used by grip in the fast corners, the steering angle is nearly zero too making it the same as drift (which is actually grip). The problem with drift (which is actually grip) vs grip in the fast corners is that you're using way too much yaw angle for the fast corners. The slower the corner, the larger the yaw angle needed which is why drift (which is actually grip) in the slow speed corners is faster.
The truth is that the absolute fastest style is grip with *just a bit* of drift due to how rubber works on tarmac. Even WRC cars drive basically grip when the tarmac is clean and dry.
From my experience I am gaining on this method only in old shitbixes in rwd because it helps control the car in long fast downhill corner that leeds strait to very long and sharp corner (I am a bemng driver)
Thanks for this great video, can I get the subaru link?
These techniques can be loosely applied to FWD cars too, especially if you clutch in for the first third of the corner
This technique is usefull for some corners and powerful cars. Cars that in rwd configuration have problems with maintaining rear wheels from burnouts at corners exits. Low power cars will not benefit from 4wd systems. Also need to take into consideration grip level.
Also in some corners you were overspeeding in entries causing "drift braking", so exit speed was poor.
I was expecting some nice, 0 counter steer, low angle drifts, but here there was typical Subaru overspeeding to impress chicks that is mostly causing their boxer engines to die because of oil not reaching sump 😂.
this video just got there when the issued pop'd out, I am in a difficult decision of full grip or using both zero countersteer drift and grip, it's an r34 at touge, I used to main zero countersteer drift but, just noticed that grip seems faster, I was never really sure tho, now I am trying to go full grip, but grip is really a challenge after years of only zero countersteer drift, I am still not sure what should I go with
Damn really fun watch
Not gonna lie, you're probably right, but the two comparison races, the drift car looked like the driver was having trouble maintaining the correct line, and while it's difficult to do, that would make a lot of different, the corner cutting and things are staples of these cars when operating on the edge of the power band in a slide, because you can't just foot down more to change the line. I think that's most of the problem here, and something that wasn't addressed, Rally cars are usually pushing 300-500Hp, where the bog standard models are lucky to get 200. Having that extra right foot available to change the line without adjusting the steering is important.
Good video and still very informative.
they were sliding off line because the tyres were overheating
@@TSRB On the first corner? Missed the apex by a car width. The way I was taught to drive these cars fast is slow in, fast out, mind you, that was on dirt, so I imagine there's going to be differences considering the grip levels. I'm not an expert on car control by any means, but I do drive one of these cars IRL, so I'm offering my experience as a talking point. It's easy to get caught up in throwing the car into the corner to make it slide, and also judging the right speed to get the right slide, there's a reason rally is hard.
All that said in retrospect, you're not hugely overshooting the apex's, so I don't think there's too much speed, but we all know it's a fine art. Cheers for replying.
So the zero counter steer working with hairpin only?
How do i stop spinning out after trying todo this in assetto corsa
"Zero-countersteering drift", it's mean on literature as slip angle technique. Drift use tractive effort AND lean angle, to turn the vehicle.
MotoGP yesterdays, use this technique for all turns. On the past, riders like Casey Stoner, use drift to be faster.
On all cases, the answer his: where had more power?
On Stoner era, the Ducati had a lot of power. The V4 had a great performance on a straight line. But the higher torque, make it unstable and harder to ride, in turns. So drift around the corner, was the way who makes Stoner faster. A higher speed on the turn exit, make a higher average speed on the straight line, and a higher top speed to the next turn.
On same way, old times F1, with a lot of torque, make it easier to lost control. So drift was faster.
Whe we can predict what's before the next turn, like a public road, the pivot of the questions are the car, and the speed.
In a low power car, in low or mid speeds, drift was faster.
At high speeds, stock tires hasn't a good performance. In other words, hasn't good grip. Than, slip angle was the fastest way, because had less power loses.
A high power car, had most times too, tires with high grip. In this situation, at low speed we don't need a special turn technique. The high power compensates itself on a straight line.
At mid speeds, slip angle was faster. Not much loses, and a lot of reserve power.
At high speeds, drift was faster, because we have power, so drift losses are insignificantly.
A low power car vs a high power car, the maximum possible speed, defined the winner.
On dirt, ice, snow, gravel, and other low grip situations, high or low power, slow or fast, don't change so much the needed techniques. The poor road prediction, and low grip, make the drift faster on average situations.
But how less power, grip was faster. Less losses, more power to accelerate the vehicle. So low power cars, drift on rally, but not ever.
Congrats for 100k 🎉🎉🎉 :linushappy:
Thanks bro
Link for the tack and car mods in the video plz...
Something VERY important to note: Generally speaking, the less grip you have available, the more drift angle you need for a faster lap time. In high grip environments, a 4 wheel drift is slower than a regular grip technique.
did you use a 22b vs a wrx sti?
finally i can make a comment on your video that isnt a bump
YO TSRB POSTED WAKE UP!! 🗣️🔥🔥🔥💯
Damn that 100K under your name looks majestic
How ZERO COUNTERSTEER DRIFTING makes you FASTER simracing...
Sondoing this on a touge and not a endurance race will be faster?
hey wheres the video of you going to a car meet in ur bmw z4?
0:31 Was that the Windows 95 boot up tune i heard in the background?
what's the track used in this video ?
music is banging
Do you think skill is a big factor? I meant you can be faster in grip within 3 momthsnof practice but you can only be faster in drift if you practice for years?
Try this again with a higher horse power car and the drift might benefit more from the power increase
can you try this on tight touge courses? would be intrested to see what happens on the road and not the track
Same result!
the key is to know when is the right time you do it.
how about a lap which uses the ideal amount of both... js saying. also i find that this technique can also be used in low power rwd cars with high ish tyre pressure, especially on corners that have lots of camber and elevation changes and nailing the apex is crucial.
what mod is this impreza???
Damn, I was lied to before by a cheeky guy in bandana
Genius sponsor segue
that white gc8 is a spitting image of mine
Cool car
I am very jealous, I'd love a Type RA on Speedline Corse 2013c's
the RA's are nice, the low wing is timeless and makes the car look a bit more sleak
@@eldrifto_ mine sits on like a speedline mistral rep I dont think its an original speedline just because of the build quality
Got it, only flick on hairpins
1:00 in the minds or subaru Fanboys: Looking at my Subaru Legacy 3.0R sedan in my garage HEY thats meee ^^ also congrats at 100k man you deserved it
can you do another vid with more powerful cars?
So, you need to alternate them Drift at hairpins but in normal corners,Grip
Subscribe, or else you'll be slow!
What about with more hp, like Group B? Also, isn't the grip car in the race an STI and the drift car not an STI?
Same car, just exterior mods that don't affect performance
How do I slide In a corner? Whenever I go in a corner my car comes out of it and in the gaurdrail
Could be a number of things. Depends on what exactly is happening. You mean the car suddenly snaps, and turns into the guard rail? Probably turning the wheel too much
@@TSRB imagine the car going into the apex but instead of going around the corner it goes to the opposite side of the lane and into the gaurdrail
Maybe a lower entry speed and less throttle. Sounds like you're going in too fast and just slamming on the throttle, meaning you have almost no grip
@@TSRB it worked. Lower the speed worked, I held down the brake for like 4 seconds, release and they I went flying through the corner. Thanks. I am a subscriber too thanks
So a special technique is best in situations and not a solve all? Wild
Sticks and Stones may break bones, but there will always be something to piss off a Subaru fanboy (Mostly evos and other cars)
what about drifting the hairpins and grip the rest
what if u only drift at hairpins
I'd wager that the same is true for a FWD car...IF you set it up for a very slight drift, nowhere near as much angle as in this AWD example. It ends up being similar to if you literally drag the rear brakes on a FWD car by doing a couple clicks of handbrake, that one however is only able to be replicated in games if you have analogue handbrake input though
Irrelevant to the video but what car do you own in real life? I just like cars in general
BMW Z4!
Uh, add more power to accelerate better out of faster corners?