Very nice info for a person like myself that is just starting off in the panning or gold finding adventure. I need all the tips that I can get. Thanks Hard Rock
Great job Keith. That looked like a lot of work. I really like your approach to methodically developing your processes. It is invaluable to those of us just starting out.
That was just half of it. The next video is on me testing the panning mechanics options. I know that the detail videos are not as entertaining, but there is a group of dedicated people I am trying to help.
Well that was an interesting experiment. I'm glad I have always used dish soap for panning. Not feeling like I'm missing out now having never used jet dry. Thank you for all your great films!
@John Flannery No amount of money is worth my self respect or, more importantly, my wife's respect. If you can't be happy looking in a mirror, nothing can make you happy. He does have some informative videos though.
I just found out that hair conditioner lowers the amount of bubbles that are formed. So, that may be something else to test along with your experiment. Salt and Vinegar also was said to lower the amount of bubbles. That salt reduces surface tension as well. Just salt has a bad effect on metal. Vinegar, seems to disolve zink in over 30 minutes or longer.
In floating crushed gold ore, which i have done ,Iv'e read that they sometimes use starch to drop the Gangue material,or even lime , but i haven't tried it myself ,i believe it is very tricky ,and don't know how much you would use without losing or settling out gold, but interesting results in your testing , i always use finish jet dry when panning ,but used to use cheap dishwashing liquid , just found the jet dry less sudsy ,thanks for sharing ,cheers .
Do you think you get any significant settling/concentration of your gold in the dry mix you use to test with? In other words - is the bottom more concentrated than the top? or if you try to "mix it up" mid test sequence might there be some other kind of separation? These are probably impossible question to answer but I'll ask them anyway.... Really a fascinating series of tests! Thank you for them.
I went to a lot of trouble to make sure it was as mixed as I could make it. There is no way I know of to assure absolute consistency, but I think it was close.
You seem to be using a clarifier but calling it a flocculant which are two different things. A flocculant makes small particles stick together so a filter can trap them more efficiently where a clarifier makes the particles sink to the bottom to be vacuumed up. Matter of fact, there is a web site called "Swim University" that clarifies (!) that ( no pun intended!). You could also try soda ash (calcium carbonate) which softens the water and makes clay drop out. It changes the ph level of the water and you can also feel it warming up although it is safe to use. I usually use a bio-degradable liquid laundry detergent or a fels-naphta laundry soap as it won't make as much suds. Thanks for the comparison video, nobody else does this kinda tedious work!
Hmmm. While it says "clarifier", it can be observed clumping particles together into something that looks like curds- which then tend to sink to the bottom. Perhaps a combination? What brand do you use of laundry detergent? Always looking for a better way to do things. Edification sometimes takes tedium. Not fun, but necessary to gain knowledge. I also get a lot of help from viewers like yourself.
Hard Rock University I use a laundry detergent called "Boulder Clean" (!) available at Costco, because it is bio-degradable and when I'm done with 50 gallons of recirculating water and suds I can dump it on my shrubs and it won't harm any pets (and I like the name!) but any laundry soap should work because of the lower suds. I try to keep things as simple and safe as possible and after watching videos of artisanal miners in third world countries they seem to be able to recover amazing amounts of fine gold with just basic tools and what they have under the kitchen sink.
@@orringarn3779 Thanks for the info. WRT artisinal miners: 'Necessity is the mother of invention'. Or, as I prefer, the shortened version: "Necessity is a mother".
Thanks for the experiment. I'm soon to use a gold cube to run very clay rich pay with very fine gold. I was planning on loading up on the flock to clarify my water.... might re-consider ... Thanks heaps 👍👍👍
@@hardrockuniversity7283 definitely good advice. Was the clarifier you used alum? Have you tried gypsum. I've found gypsum great for breaking and settling clay... depending on the type of clay.
@@lithiumvalleyrocksprospect9792 No, it was a liquid pool product from Home Depot. If you find something that works, but doesn't hurt recovery, please let me know so I can spread the word. Thanks.
OK something I have some experience with. With my placer stuff I just use some jet dry and don't have any real issues. Now when I do my hard rock powder I have tried everything but the gold still floats. So I said let's go with works. I noticed when the gold floats its just the gold no other impurities. So I sat back and thought about it. Here is what I came with. You can see floating gold best in a black pan so bam issue # 1 solved. Next how to sink the gold , well I now welcome floating gold I went to Walmart and bought a battery operated infants nose sucker it has about a half shot glass holder so when that stuff floats now I just suck it up. Only downside I found is you have to constantly empty that cup. And it's good clean gold.
Oh, that’s what I get for not proof reading my post. I think it is available where they rent Rug Doctor carpet cleaners, at least they used to have it in the display where they sold the cleaning liquid.
Hi good day!we have black sand that is ready for firing, done vulmill. We have a situation here that we cannot removed the carbon like when it's fired but the gold is present. How do we clean it btw?
I would need more information to have a chance of helping. First- what is the concentration of gold? How did you get the black sand? Was it from hard rock or from sand and gravel? Keith
Hey Keith, nice test! I know this sounds odd, but try adding some cheap fluoride toothpaste and hydrogen peroxide to you material while it pre-soaks to help break the slimes before starting the panning process.
It does sound odd, but why should I argue? I don't have a degree in surface chemistry. :-) What is the theory? BTW, thanks again for the exceptional hospitality. Keith
@@hardrockuniversity7283 - I can only speculate as to the exact mechanism at this point, lab testing needed to confirm, but here's what I believe is happening: - The toothpaste contains fluoride ions, usually in the form of Sodium Fluoride (NaF), as well as Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS). - The hydrogen peroxide has an Oxidation-Reduction Potential (ORP) of 1.8v, and decompose to form either OH free-radicals, or H2O + O2. The Sodium Lauryl Sulfate is an anionic surfactant and emulsifier, which both acts to allow wetting of hydrophobic particles, such as gold, as well as reducing bonding forces between particles. Some of the fluoride ions react with the hydrated clay minerals something along the lines of: M(OH)x + 6F- = MF6^3- + x(OH-) ...which raises the pH by directly decreasing pOH (remember, pH/pOH is a negative log scale, the larger the value, the less of the indicated species is present), as well as binding up the metallic ions (Al and Ca, mostly) , preventing the formation of gels. The increased ORP from the addition of the H2O2 also forces some of the fluorine ions to form HF in situ, which will attack some of the hydrated silicon oxides, further reducing gelling. Furthermore the ORP and pH changes should act to further reduce the van der waals binding forces between individual particles, acting as a deflocculant.
@@temptorsent Boy, I wish I was young enough to go back to school! I understand the words, but have lost enough of the theory to be floundering a bit. I will try to give it a go sometime soon and see how it changes things. Thanks for the help. Keith BTW, Eva is feeling much better now. No pain at all.
@@hardrockuniversity7283 - I'm very glad to hear that Eva is feeling better, that's wonderful news! I have only amateur depth in the related chemistry, so like I said, I'm only positing a guess based on my experiences with the materials I work with, and the mechanism may be rather different than I have supposed --- let a real chemist (@NileRed or @NurdRage perhaps?) address that! It would be easy enough to test which constituents are active in what ways at least by simply purchasing pure SLS and NaF, as well as the H2O2(3-6%), and testing in the same manner you did for the jet dry vs. dawn vs. floc. -- toothpaste just happens to be readily available, it's likely not ideal, but seems to work .
If you got very saline it would affect the viscosity, however, sea water is used in ocean and beach dredging. It can't be too bad, but it might be an issue at theses particle sizes. Anyone know?
I was wondering about borax. If someone could use that. That is what my search was when this vid popped up. How would borax work. I am a novice and we'll just crushed some schist that had a coppery color mixed with the mica. So I was like I wonder. I had seen Jeff Williams talk about crush schist for gold before. I am a avid rock hounder and find different kinds of schist all the time. Most of the time it's black mica in it or the iron pyrite mixed with mica. The coppery color is what has me wondering
I think you would need to have some ore you knew had gold in it and then try borax against jet dry and see how well it worked. I think it would be worth a try.
@@hardrockuniversity7283 thanks! Yeah the stuff shimmers only when the light is right so it's not gold. It's just so dam small. I am talking small like cement powder small. Water carrys everything that small.
VERY true. I may still use it at times to avoid the suds though. In addition, there are a LOT of major copper mines surrounding me and I may be able to locate a non sudsing surfactant at wholesale prices also.
Very nice info for a person like myself that is just starting off in the panning or gold finding adventure. I need all the tips that I can get. Thanks Hard Rock
I will be loading a new video in the next day or so that shows how I panned those tests. If you haven't seen lesson 24, be sure to watch it.
Thanks for conducting these tests they were very helpful.
You are most welcome.
Great job Keith. That looked like a lot of work. I really like your approach to methodically developing your processes. It is invaluable to those of us just starting out.
That was just half of it. The next video is on me testing the panning mechanics options. I know that the detail videos are not as entertaining, but there is a group of dedicated people I am trying to help.
Well that was an interesting experiment. I'm glad I have always used dish soap for panning. Not feeling like I'm missing out now having never used jet dry. Thank you for all your great films!
You're welcome.
@John Flannery It really makes a difference. Did you look at Dan's video? Quite the demonstration.
@John Flannery No amount of money is worth my self respect or, more importantly, my wife's respect. If you can't be happy looking in a mirror, nothing can make you happy. He does have some informative videos though.
There used to be a farm adjuvant product sold by Amway . Made water wetter was the idea. Farmers used it to distribute water more effectively
That sounds interesting. Would probably work well.
I just found out that hair conditioner lowers the amount of bubbles that are formed. So, that may be something else to test along with your experiment. Salt and Vinegar also was said to lower the amount of bubbles. That salt reduces surface tension as well. Just salt has a bad effect on metal. Vinegar, seems to disolve zink in over 30 minutes or longer.
Interesting. Thank you.
In floating crushed gold ore, which i have done ,Iv'e read that they sometimes use starch to drop the Gangue material,or even lime , but i haven't tried it myself ,i believe it is very tricky ,and don't know how much you would use without losing or settling out gold, but interesting results in your testing , i always use finish jet dry when panning ,but used to use cheap dishwashing liquid , just found the jet dry less sudsy ,thanks for sharing ,cheers .
Do you think you get any significant settling/concentration of your gold in the dry mix you use to test with? In other words - is the bottom more concentrated than the top? or if you try to "mix it up" mid test sequence might there be some other kind of separation? These are probably impossible question to answer but I'll ask them anyway....
Really a fascinating series of tests! Thank you for them.
I went to a lot of trouble to make sure it was as mixed as I could make it. There is no way I know of to assure absolute consistency, but I think it was close.
You seem to be using a clarifier but calling it a flocculant which are two different things. A flocculant makes small particles stick together so a filter can trap them more efficiently where a clarifier makes the particles sink to the bottom to be vacuumed up. Matter of fact, there is a web site called "Swim University" that clarifies (!) that ( no pun intended!). You could also try soda ash (calcium carbonate) which softens the water and makes clay drop out. It changes the ph level of the water and you can also feel it warming up although it is safe to use. I usually use a bio-degradable liquid laundry detergent or a fels-naphta laundry soap as it won't make as much suds. Thanks for the comparison video, nobody else does this kinda tedious work!
Hmmm. While it says "clarifier", it can be observed clumping particles together into something that looks like curds- which then tend to sink to the bottom. Perhaps a combination? What brand do you use of laundry detergent? Always looking for a better way to do things. Edification sometimes takes tedium. Not fun, but necessary to gain knowledge. I also get a lot of help from viewers like yourself.
Hard Rock University I use a laundry detergent called "Boulder Clean" (!) available at Costco, because it is bio-degradable and when I'm done with 50 gallons of recirculating water and suds I can dump it on my shrubs and it won't harm any pets (and I like the name!) but any laundry soap should work because of the lower suds. I try to keep things as simple and safe as possible and after watching videos of artisanal miners in third world countries they seem to be able to recover amazing amounts of fine gold with just basic tools and what they have under the kitchen sink.
@@orringarn3779 Thanks for the info.
WRT artisinal miners: 'Necessity is the mother of invention'. Or, as I prefer, the shortened version: "Necessity is a mother".
Thanks for the experiment. I'm soon to use a gold cube to run very clay rich pay with very fine gold. I was planning on loading up on the flock to clarify my water.... might re-consider ... Thanks heaps 👍👍👍
Testing before trusting....
@@hardrockuniversity7283 definitely good advice. Was the clarifier you used alum? Have you tried gypsum. I've found gypsum great for breaking and settling clay... depending on the type of clay.
@@lithiumvalleyrocksprospect9792 No, it was a liquid pool product from Home Depot. If you find something that works, but doesn't hurt recovery, please let me know so I can spread the word.
Thanks.
@@hardrockuniversity7283 definitely 👍
@@lithiumvalleyrocksprospect9792 I appreciate the help.
OK something I have some experience with.
With my placer stuff I just use some jet dry and don't have any real issues.
Now when I do my hard rock powder I have tried everything but the gold still floats. So I said let's go with works. I noticed when the gold floats its just the gold no other impurities. So I sat back and thought about it. Here is what I came with. You can see floating gold best in a black pan so bam issue # 1 solved. Next how to sink the gold , well I now welcome floating gold I went to Walmart and bought a battery operated infants nose sucker it has about a half shot glass holder so when that stuff floats now I just suck it up. Only downside I found is you have to constantly empty that cup. And it's good clean gold.
Yep. A little pine oil might really float it.
Keith, what about adding defamer to minimize the suds?
I presume you mean de-fOamer? I am not familiar with any anti-suds agents. Is there anything readily available?
Oh, that’s what I get for not proof reading my post. I think it is available where they rent Rug Doctor carpet cleaners, at least they used to have it in the display where they sold the cleaning liquid.
@@RockingJOffroad Hmmmm, I think I see another test coming up :-)
Hi good day!we have black sand that is ready for firing, done vulmill. We have a situation here that we cannot removed the carbon like when it's fired but the gold is present. How do we clean it btw?
I would need more information to have a chance of helping. First- what is the concentration of gold? How did you get the black sand? Was it from hard rock or from sand and gravel?
Keith
@@hardrockuniversity7283 hi!.sorry for the late reply. yeah the black sand is from the solid rocks
@@virgilioabueva8339 Do you have a good idea what size the gold particles are?
Hey Keith, nice test!
I know this sounds odd, but try adding some cheap fluoride toothpaste and hydrogen peroxide to you material while it pre-soaks to help break the slimes before starting the panning process.
It does sound odd, but why should I argue? I don't have a degree in surface chemistry. :-)
What is the theory?
BTW, thanks again for the exceptional hospitality.
Keith
@@hardrockuniversity7283 - I can only speculate as to the exact mechanism at this point, lab testing needed to confirm, but here's what I believe is happening:
- The toothpaste contains fluoride ions, usually in the form of Sodium Fluoride (NaF), as well as Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS).
- The hydrogen peroxide has an Oxidation-Reduction Potential (ORP) of 1.8v, and decompose to form either OH free-radicals, or H2O + O2.
The Sodium Lauryl Sulfate is an anionic surfactant and emulsifier, which both acts to allow wetting of hydrophobic particles, such as gold, as well as reducing bonding forces between particles.
Some of the fluoride ions react with the hydrated clay minerals something along the lines of: M(OH)x + 6F- = MF6^3- + x(OH-)
...which raises the pH by directly decreasing pOH (remember, pH/pOH is a negative log scale, the larger the value, the less of the indicated species is present), as well as binding up the metallic ions (Al and Ca, mostly) , preventing the formation of gels.
The increased ORP from the addition of the H2O2 also forces some of the fluorine ions to form HF in situ, which will attack some of the hydrated silicon oxides, further reducing gelling.
Furthermore the ORP and pH changes should act to further reduce the van der waals binding forces between individual particles, acting as a deflocculant.
@@temptorsent Boy, I wish I was young enough to go back to school! I understand the words, but have lost enough of the theory to be floundering a bit.
I will try to give it a go sometime soon and see how it changes things.
Thanks for the help.
Keith
BTW, Eva is feeling much better now. No pain at all.
@@hardrockuniversity7283 - I'm very glad to hear that Eva is feeling better, that's wonderful news!
I have only amateur depth in the related chemistry, so like I said, I'm only positing a guess based on my experiences with the materials I work with, and the mechanism may be rather different than I have supposed --- let a real chemist (@NileRed or @NurdRage perhaps?) address that!
It would be easy enough to test which constituents are active in what ways at least by simply purchasing pure SLS and NaF, as well as the H2O2(3-6%), and testing in the same manner you did for the jet dry vs. dawn vs. floc. -- toothpaste just happens to be readily available, it's likely not ideal, but seems to work .
@@temptorsent Thanks for the help.
Eva says hi and thank you for letting us stay on your beautiful claims. She really enjoyed it.
Hi i have a question about highly saline water will it make gold float. For example some creeks here in western australia are quite salty
If you got very saline it would affect the viscosity, however, sea water is used in ocean and beach dredging. It can't be too bad, but it might be an issue at theses particle sizes. Anyone know?
Start 3:55
I was wondering about borax. If someone could use that. That is what my search was when this vid popped up.
How would borax work.
I am a novice and we'll just crushed some schist that had a coppery color mixed with the mica. So I was like I wonder.
I had seen Jeff Williams talk about crush schist for gold before.
I am a avid rock hounder and find different kinds of schist all the time. Most of the time it's black mica in it or the iron pyrite mixed with mica. The coppery color is what has me wondering
I think you would need to have some ore you knew had gold in it and then try borax against jet dry and see how well it worked. I think it would be worth a try.
@@hardrockuniversity7283 thanks! Yeah the stuff shimmers only when the light is right so it's not gold. It's just so dam small. I am talking small like cement powder small. Water carrys everything that small.
@@spectrumofcreation5679 Probably fine mica, sulfides also float well, but are usually larger than that.
GOOD TOO KNOW!!!
That is why I tested it now that have a good material for testing. You're welcome.
Can get considerably more Dawn than Jet Dry for the same money.
VERY true. I may still use it at times to avoid the suds though. In addition, there are a LOT of major copper mines surrounding me and I may be able to locate a non sudsing surfactant at wholesale prices also.
YeeeeeeHaaaaaa
just put it all into a smellter add flux . then cook for 3 hours on low.
You have to concentrate first.