This phenomenon is not limited to religious belief. I often feel like I am wasting my time debating with global warming denialists - otherwise perfectly sane, rational, and secular people who absolutely refuse to look at the evidence. And this form of inability to debate may turn out to be worse than debating religious people in our times, because these denialists are blocking changes that need to happen to stop us from destroying ourselves.
Seth, I can sense the difference in your ealrier shows with respect to your newer shows. You have grown as an individual and a skeptic. I appreciate to the fullest what you do. I have for the most part been an atheist all my life, but believed in woo until I was 22ish. Listening the athiest experience began my path to skepticism and for that I am grateful. Your show always has been a journey into an even more skeptical life. Over the years your show has become a hub for entertainment but equally a hub for intellectual thought. I have learned so much through your story and through the amazing topics you have on your show. Thank you soo much for what you do!!
I became an atheist simply because of the Philosophy of Religion class. Structured debate within the class was crucial to my deconvertion. Most people simply cant be forced to even listen to philosophical arguments for 10 minutes. But being exposed to philosophy, reason and honest discussion during the entire semester was the most mind opening experience of my life.
We all reach that point where we ask ourselves, "what's the point?" I find myself grounded when i think the things i post (videos, comments, debates) are all in public. They are all accessible to the public. Even if i'm not popular, i do have some listeners, and i can try to bring some information or a way of thinking for the layperson to understand what we mean (because i can be slow sometimes, too). Someone on the fence may see my reasoning and begin to break their religious shackles.
I don't find evolving from a monkey or ape appalling, in fact I think, WOW we came a long way and still have a long way to go to shrug off these ancient myths and superstitions!
I was raised Jehovah's Witness. It was an atheist at a door to door call on a Saturday that actually started me thinking. It's just taken me another 20 years of searching to realize he was right.
I would have to say that as a former "believer" it does help to debate. It's what got me to start questioning and ultimately lead me to becoming an Atheist.
The best way to deal with theist friends and relatives, is to just say; "I'm an atheist, but I don't wish to discuss it unless you can seek common ground." The key is set the rules for engagement right from the start, and force them to realize that attacking you won't work. Plus they will have to question themselves. And, the more they wish to convert you, the more they have to really think, which is kryptonite for theism.
I've found a fifth one, very common on the internet. They memorize the names of dozens of logical fallacies and accuse you of every single one of them. They realize the importance of rational argument and evidence, but fail to recognize any evidence that doesn't support their belief. Their sophisticated writing style hides the lack of substance in their arguments. I call them the Smartasses.
Very good topic. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. I have two series of videos about the atheist debate, and the comments I get are really discouraging. Lots of willfully ignorant people, who just ignore all the evidence I show them. But then I just think "it's not about convincing these people, it's about those other bystanders who are listening in. Many of those people are salvageable."
@maxwahrhaftig I'm about 10 minutes in, and so far you are spot on the money thinkingatheist. I have met all 4 of these christian types. In fact, you see the whole range of these characters when you flick through all of the christian channels on satellite tv .. the feeler, the theologian, the folkloreist and the foot soldier. Thumbs up from me Seth :-)
@JabberCT Astronomy is very kewel! I'm so glad that u were a free thinker and had an open mind. I think it IS rare, especially for one raised in a religious home to find their way out of it but it DOES happen and, I believe, will happen even more as more atheists become vocal.
At first I felt like that was quite stereotyping, but then I thought that hey, almost the same kind of categories applies to us atheists as well. I have a faint memory of seeing such a list in some random forum or another. Great show nonetheless, always a pleasure to listen.
I used to love debating, learning and finding out what makes other people tick and believe in (x), (y) and (z). But now, I only see debates as a test stubbornness or the same old argument being played over and over and over again until you get to a point where you're bashing the guy for not looking it up in the first place.
@TheThinkingAtheist well responded sir. I scaped the dogma that imprisoned me for so long too. Keep up the good work, new born thinkers will appreciate it.
Good question. You're never going to convince the fundamentalists in a debate, but there are plenty of people who may be 'on the fence' or genuinely trying to find an answer. For these people watching or listening to these debates can help them form an answer using the information given in the debate. Hopefully with more people exposed to these debates you get more people making an informed rational decision instead of only having their local indoctrination as sole option.
I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, but I left at 17 and yes, they are trained to debate, I had been to debate training, but it's basically just a constant training regime of theocracy and how to control the conversation. When it comes down to it, JWs are just like the rest of Christians, they debate like the typical theologian type you mentioned, and they turn the other way, stick their fingers in their ears, and go "La, la, la" just like all the others. Ask me if you have any questions- =)
To the caller Erin ( I hope I spelled her name right), I know this is a year after you called in, but I hope somehow you see this.... You are, as a teenager, are already MUCH smarter than most adult Believers. You are using your mind to find truth... real truth.
My mum has a friend whose daughter said to her the other day "Mum, you know the way we came from apes?" "Yeah" "Then whats the deal with adam and eve?" She's 8! I know its not that interesting but its good to know the youth of today is getting smarter
I love debating! And I believe debating is more effective for those that are watching. When youre debating its hard to take a look from the outside because you're concentrated on what are the points being made. After debating I usually read/watch the entire debate to see where I could have done better. Its a great way to exercise your mind!
I LOVEEE it when a mormon or j.w. comes a knockin'. I start asking THEM questions... simple, logical, rational. Within 10 minutes, they are absolutely dying to leave! XD
Yes, I’ve met many a feeler. In fact, I have a few good friends who are feelers. They seem especially abundant. Theologians I never met so many of until I got started here. The folklorist sounds more like the sort who has never heard of pareidolia.
I think based on my experience that it is not to convince one person to think, but have an audience, and demonstrate how the person who's trying to make a case for faith evades questions while you answer questions and make them look weak. That can make people think, which makes it all worth it.
Debating this ppl it our responsability, we owe it to our predecessors those brave men and wemen who stood up to insanity and sayd NO, many times paying with theyr lives theyr sceptisism, those who inspire us, Hypatia, Bruno, aristotle, Galileo Galilei, etc, philosophers, astronomers, mathematicians.. those who gave birth to science, those who before us fought for truth, with theyr sacrifices gaved us the chance to live in a little better world, thanks to those who came before us. we owe them.
Theist Personality types: 1. "Feeler" - all emotion. 2. "Theologian" - very educated, a mind pretzel of scriptures. Use the book to prove the book. 3. "Folklorist" - has just enough info to confuse people. A surface skimmer of urban myth. 4. The Footsoldier - all fight, all force. All the information is collected to trample you. Your words don't matter. - They're convinced. I got it. - YES! Debate! Do it in public. The value of debate is for those who witness that debate.
When it comes to the debate it's more for who is listening than it is who you're debating. I think you said something like that TTA. It allows those in the crowd that may be in this internal struggle to understand that they have other like minded people out there.
@julzabro I hope you are right. I, myself changed. I was born and raised Catholic. I was dipped, clipped, communion, catechism, confirmation, the whole 9 yards. Then my true God (lol) showed itself in 1994. It was called Comet Shoe-Maker Levy 9. When that hit Jupiter it got me into Astronomy, i bought a telescope and a whole library on books. That soon followed with studying evolution, the history of life, etc, etc. Next thing i knew, i was a Atheist. I consider my case very rare and lucky.
I remember talking to a friend of my father's about religion because my father mentioned my atheism (because he never stops gossiping). His friend is a Jewish preacher, but he admitted that the truth isn't really obvious enough for the masses.
@cubieblu I understand that, its on thing to believe or disbelieve some thing and its another to actually say it out loud or use it in practice. I find myself talking things over with myself just to take a thought and put it in hearable words to see if it still holds up the same.
Thank you! You posted this =) I am arguing with a friend on facebook we are over 100 messages in... I loved your channel and I am 16 (17 in 2 weeks), though my channel says I am 22. =)
ALL debate is good for it opens dialogue, allows venting of emotions for a clearer view & many other things. The reason why sometimes there is heated debates is not due to the topic but the personal, emotional connection the debatee has with the topic. Also I feel the debate sometimes goes off track. The idea is not to stop them believing - we ALL have freedom of thought - but to stop them making laws & conditions that inhibit others freedom of expression & thought.
I have another type for you: The "Blackmailer". Rather than allow any argument, the Blackmailer use emotional capital to get out of it, the idea being that you're insistence that there are no gods is hurting them somehow. The display comes complete with tears and tantrums, and they take to making deals "Why can't you TRY to accept god? How can you say things like that to me? Don't you care how I feel?" I thought we were talking about God? How did this become about them? Yet is always does.
It is definitely true that debating can be a waste of time in that the person *in* the debate very often digs in and refuses to concede any ground. BUT... Those watching and reading debates can and are very often swayed. And not only that, but I have had many open, honest debates where much later the person comes back to me conceding the points of the earlier debate. So it didn't get thru to them at the time, but it often says with them and keeps them thinking.
I met a couple of JWs a few years ago on the street. When I saw them approaching my eyebrow raised (the way they were dressed) and then they introduced themselves. I said to them " Don't waste your time or mine, guys, I'm an atheist." Their smiles faltered and just before they walked off, one of them, looking a little hopeful now, asked me if I believed in a " higher power". I shook my head and said "I do not believe in any god or higher power." Then they walked away...
I was never very religious, but hearing Hitchen's debates cemented my atheism. I think Dawkins started it for me though. So yes, debate does in fact work. It places ideas and doubts in people. That doubt coupled with some thinking leads to the shift in beliefs. The change is never instant, it happens slowly.
@RichieJohnSauls Ask your "feeler" friend if she has ever been in love but then found out later she was wrong. That's my favorite question to them. You can love the wrong person...therefore, your feelings and deepest convictions can ALSO be wrong!
@PlayfulGibbon I like that - shooting jesusfish in a barrel. However, the challenge is more than that - it's to transform the jesusfish into an amphibian ... and then into a sane person. So far as I've seen, it takes years for people to realize how deluded they are and how trapped. Is there a way to accelerate this to free them more quickly?
Personally for me debates raise awareness and bring people aware to topics and facts they were previously ignorant about. The debates revolving Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris for instance made me become an anti-theist.
@jasonbertles Thanks for the input, but that's not quite what I meant. I guess I should have been more specific. What I'd really like to do is just give my brother the little tidbits of information that would help him to start questioning his beliefs. The rest would be his journey, though I'd be there to help him if he asked.
Wow, I could relate to many of your callers, but I love the idea that debate with even the most obstinate Christian theologian, if nothing else, gives some people a person who they can relate to and identify with. I understand that. I was convinced by seeing even the "smartest" theologian go down to someone like Christopher Hitchens or Michael Shermer. Those people who know their stuff aren't going to relate to anyone unlink them... they will say anyone unlike them isn't a "true" Christian.
Pertaining to the caller at 1:03:00 It may be that I am just too large of a pessimist but I believe the internet is a wash if not a slight advantage for the religious side. It is so much easier to disseminate false information that to fight against it. Fundamentalists groups used to be isolated. The internet has given them an amazing ability to realize there are others like them and coordinate their extremism and push their lies into the main stream.
I agree with Richard Dawkins: there's little to be gained by debating and much to be lost. It's difficult to debate against someone who refuses to stick to actual facts, very few of them are willing to admit and change their stances when proven wrong, and it legitimizes their views by appearing to take them seriously.
Actually, my roommate and I had a couple Mormons coming to the apartment once a week for almost a month, and I can honestly say that they had more answers and new more about their bible than anyone I've ever talked to.
I have only family on my Facebook page, all who are Christian and I post stuff all the time. I posted a few of these videos actually with them starting out at an interesting part of the video.
@glau2034 We are quite in agreement for the long haul. I suspect that there could be a major and rapid change to drop religions within a short period if we can get enough momentum going. I'm thinking about how the Berlin wall went down - suddenly. Maybe the only way there is the long haul and pushes to see if we can kick over the edge.
I have known a Jehovah's Witness who de-converted. She spent years trying to convert me, and she is probably the biggest reason I am so adamantly opposed to religion now. I remember when she first de-converted, she was freaking out over a website which had all the Watchtower covers. It was a website I had shown her several years before, and she had vehemently insisted everything on it was not true.
@maxwahrhaftig Okay, I see. A jump ahead on my part. Though, we should certainly keep our intended audiences at mind. Because there is such a frustration with debating in general atheist and like-minded folk need an outlet. But, it is worth listening because, like all-things, it contains valuable points regardless of presentation.
@AtheistEvan That's pretty much the way I feel about it. Debating believers lets people on the fence see that there are good arguments against that view.
In regards to the devil face in the 9/11 smoke. I would more attribute that to the brain's phenomenal ability to see faces in extremely vague patterns/images rather than chance/photoshop.
I changed my opinion about HFCS because I was debating with someone and tried proving it was harmful but found out it's no more harmful than regular sugar
I very much believe that debates on religion work.One reason I became an atheist was the theist and atheist debates on TH-cam.If you view debates with an open mind they could change your life.
@S3NT13NTGL1TCH Comedy is probably the easiest way to disarm and bring down the walls and open up dialogue where ideas can be shared and discussed, as opposed to debating or arguing.
I do think we waste our time considered the debaters, but perhaps someone who listen and isn't as hardcore might get some seeds planted - as the first caller testimoned. I like the gentle planting of ideas on facebook etc. for people to think upon, rather then get in their face and make them all defensive. Keep up your good work!
I didn’t get The Who are you to question god? I usually got “do you think you could do better?” Which I used to respond “ I think even you could do better.”
@TheThinkingAtheist well, I was thinking certainly not all, but then the ones that won't fit into the sterotype aren't likely to bring it up or argue with one on their views so you won't exactly encounter them.
You forgot one, the Preacher. These are the ones that want other people to believe, they know it's all bunk but will try to convince everyone they are correct for several reasons: They want to be the leader (power), they want money, or they want to be the smarter person and keep others ignorant.
@amberview30 I seem to recall Hitchens saying he hopes Christianity never completely disappears, because debating helps keep his mind sharp. So, there's that.
I'm an atheist in a catholic family, and hope to convert my little brother, age 10, to atheism. He still believes in Santa Claus, so I may want to wait a bit. Any ideas on how to plant the seed? I only have about 3 1/2 years before I move out, so he needs to be pretty convinced before he enters highschool. I really want to help him listen to reason.
I didn't know that it was. I'm not even sure how comments become spam. Could you give me some insights? I'm not especially savvy with the more technical side of computing.
It concluded with an essentially complete scientific method with a workable notion of truth. Because of Robert Grosseteste at Oxford, Albertus Magnus at Paris, and other medieval scholars, it was the golden age of scientific method. Never before or since that century have the philosophy and method of science been advanced so greatly." pg. 58 Scientific Method in Practice Hugh G. Gauch Jr. (M.S. in plant Genetics from Cornell University and currently a professor there)
@ainefairygoddess Also, just thinking about it now... Psychoanalysis is important in this aspect to understand the methodology and patterns of thought that are used in the situation. It's just as easy psychoanalyze us, so I suggest you do that. Without psychoanalysis, we wouldn't even be able to relate to one another on an emotional level to begin with. Simply put, we all psychoanalyze, even if we don't realize it.
All it takes is one seed of doubt to start the process. Probably why the devil is so feared in religious circles. The devil is not just the harbringer of evil, but he questions and stirs doubt. The "devils advocate" if you will...
![30 ชั่วโมงคนเดียว บนรถไฟชั้น 3 โซเวียต [Around The World Ep. 2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MlE9boAVqDA/mqdefault.jpg)
@TheThinkingAtheist You are helping others get their heads screwed on straight, and I am one of them. Thanks so much for the info.
Good job on the re-recording Seth! Still feels like the live show, you maintained it well.
My wife and I really enjoy listening to these podcasts! Keep up the good work, we plan to stream live on Friday;)
This phenomenon is not limited to religious belief. I often feel like I am wasting my time debating with global warming denialists - otherwise perfectly sane, rational, and secular people who absolutely refuse to look at the evidence. And this form of inability to debate may turn out to be worse than debating religious people in our times, because these denialists are blocking changes that need to happen to stop us from destroying ourselves.
Seth,
I can sense the difference in your ealrier shows with respect to your newer shows. You have grown as an individual and a skeptic. I appreciate to the fullest what you do. I have for the most part been an atheist all my life, but believed in woo until I was 22ish. Listening the athiest experience began my path to skepticism and for that I am grateful. Your show always has been a journey into an even more skeptical life. Over the years your show has become a hub for entertainment but equally a hub for intellectual thought. I have learned so much through your story and through the amazing topics you have on your show. Thank you soo much for what you do!!
I became an atheist simply because of the Philosophy of Religion class. Structured debate within the class was crucial to my deconvertion. Most people simply cant be forced to even listen to philosophical arguments for 10 minutes. But being exposed to philosophy, reason and honest discussion during the entire semester was the most mind opening experience of my life.
We all reach that point where we ask ourselves, "what's the point?" I find myself grounded when i think the things i post (videos, comments, debates) are all in public. They are all accessible to the public. Even if i'm not popular, i do have some listeners, and i can try to bring some information or a way of thinking for the layperson to understand what we mean (because i can be slow sometimes, too). Someone on the fence may see my reasoning and begin to break their religious shackles.
I don't find evolving from a monkey or ape appalling, in fact I think, WOW we came a long way and still have a long way to go to shrug off these ancient myths and superstitions!
I was once a YEC. Now I am an atheist. The debate can change minds.
I think that debating helps the people watching the debate more than the debaters.
I was raised Jehovah's Witness. It was an atheist at a door to door call on a Saturday that actually started me thinking. It's just taken me another 20 years of searching to realize he was right.
I would have to say that as a former "believer" it does help to debate. It's what got me to start questioning and ultimately lead me to becoming an Atheist.
The best way to deal with theist friends and relatives, is to just say; "I'm an atheist, but I don't wish to discuss it unless you can seek common ground." The key is set the rules for engagement right from the start, and force them to realize that attacking you won't work. Plus they will have to question themselves. And, the more they wish to convert you, the more they have to really think, which is kryptonite for theism.
I've found a fifth one, very common on the internet. They memorize the names of dozens of logical fallacies and accuse you of every single one of them. They realize the importance of rational argument and evidence, but fail to recognize any evidence that doesn't support their belief. Their sophisticated writing style hides the lack of substance in their arguments. I call them the Smartasses.
So glad I found this channel. I think I'll share this video.
This episode is so appropriate with current events (2020 election) We see the same delusion with the trumpers.
Very good topic. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. I have two series of videos about the atheist debate, and the comments I get are really discouraging. Lots of willfully ignorant people, who just ignore all the evidence I show them.
But then I just think "it's not about convincing these people, it's about those other bystanders who are listening in. Many of those people are salvageable."
@maxwahrhaftig I'm about 10 minutes in, and so far you are spot on the money thinkingatheist. I have met all 4 of these christian types. In fact, you see the whole range of these characters when you flick through all of the christian channels on satellite tv .. the feeler, the theologian, the folkloreist and the foot soldier. Thumbs up from me Seth :-)
Your description of 'the feeler' perfectly fits one of my christian friends.
Seth, Dude, You have a great voice! And brilliant arguments! Keep up the good work!
Debating will never convince the person you're debating but it effects the audience greatly.
@JabberCT Astronomy is very kewel! I'm so glad that u were a free thinker and had an open mind. I think it IS rare, especially for one raised in a religious home to find their way out of it but it DOES happen and, I believe, will happen even more as more atheists become vocal.
At first I felt like that was quite stereotyping, but then I thought that hey, almost the same kind of categories applies to us atheists as well. I have a faint memory of seeing such a list in some random forum or another.
Great show nonetheless, always a pleasure to listen.
I used to love debating, learning and finding out what makes other people tick and believe in (x), (y) and (z).
But now, I only see debates as a test stubbornness or the same old argument being played over and over and over again until you get to a point where you're bashing the guy for not looking it up in the first place.
Great Program!! Thanks.
@TheThinkingAtheist well responded sir.
I scaped the dogma that imprisoned me for so long too. Keep up the good work, new born thinkers will appreciate it.
Musta been God who messed up your sound card ;) Great podcast, some really fantastic calls.
Seth that was an awesome podcast =]
Good question. You're never going to convince the fundamentalists in a debate, but there are plenty of people who may be 'on the fence' or genuinely trying to find an answer. For these people watching or listening to these debates can help them form an answer using the information given in the debate. Hopefully with more people exposed to these debates you get more people making an informed rational decision instead of only having their local indoctrination as sole option.
Decent, and accurate to my experiences.
I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, but I left at 17
and yes, they are trained to debate, I had been to debate training, but it's basically just a constant training regime of theocracy and how to control the conversation.
When it comes down to it, JWs are just like the rest of Christians, they debate like the typical theologian type you mentioned, and they turn the other way, stick their fingers in their ears, and go "La, la, la" just like all the others.
Ask me if you have any questions- =)
To the caller Erin ( I hope I spelled her name right), I know this is a year after you called in, but I hope somehow you see this.... You are, as a teenager, are already MUCH smarter than most adult Believers. You are using your mind to find truth... real truth.
My mum has a friend whose daughter said to her the other day
"Mum, you know the way we came from apes?"
"Yeah"
"Then whats the deal with adam and eve?"
She's 8! I know its not that interesting but its good to know the youth of today is getting smarter
I love debating! And I believe debating is more effective for those that are watching. When youre debating its hard to take a look from the outside because you're concentrated on what are the points being made. After debating I usually read/watch the entire debate to see where I could have done better. Its a great way to exercise your mind!
I LOVEEE it when a mormon or j.w. comes a knockin'. I start asking THEM questions... simple, logical, rational. Within 10 minutes, they are absolutely dying to leave! XD
Yes, I’ve met many a feeler. In fact, I have a few good friends who are feelers. They seem especially abundant.
Theologians I never met so many of until I got started here.
The folklorist sounds more like the sort who has never heard of pareidolia.
One of my fave podcasts by you :o)
xxxxx
I think based on my experience that it is not to convince one person to think, but have an audience, and demonstrate how the person who's trying to make a case for faith evades questions while you answer questions and make them look weak. That can make people think, which makes it all worth it.
Debating this ppl it our responsability, we owe it to our predecessors those brave men and wemen who stood up to insanity and sayd NO, many times paying with theyr lives theyr sceptisism, those who inspire us, Hypatia, Bruno, aristotle, Galileo Galilei, etc, philosophers, astronomers, mathematicians.. those who gave birth to science, those who before us fought for truth, with theyr sacrifices gaved us the chance to live in a little better world, thanks to those who came before us. we owe them.
Theist Personality types:
1. "Feeler" - all emotion.
2. "Theologian" - very educated, a mind pretzel of scriptures. Use the book to prove the book.
3. "Folklorist" - has just enough info to confuse people. A surface skimmer of urban myth.
4. The Footsoldier - all fight, all force. All the information is collected to trample you. Your words don't matter.
-
They're convinced. I got it.
-
YES! Debate! Do it in public. The value of debate is for those who witness that debate.
I loved the feeler's voice you did. Sounded like a female Clinton :) hahaha. Love your work Seth!
Very true. It's hard to think about. But this is why we must continue to educate and help the world see this cursed meme for what it is.
I'm loving your voice.
When it comes to the debate it's more for who is listening than it is who you're debating. I think you said something like that TTA. It allows those in the crowd that may be in this internal struggle to understand that they have other like minded people out there.
Can you put a link to the mp3 in the description box? I'd rather listen to these on my Ipod. :)
@julzabro I hope you are right. I, myself changed. I was born and raised Catholic. I was dipped, clipped, communion, catechism, confirmation, the whole 9 yards. Then my true God (lol) showed itself in 1994. It was called Comet Shoe-Maker Levy 9. When that hit Jupiter it got me into Astronomy, i bought a telescope and a whole library on books. That soon followed with studying evolution, the history of life, etc, etc. Next thing i knew, i was a Atheist. I consider my case very rare and lucky.
I remember talking to a friend of my father's about religion because my father mentioned my atheism (because he never stops gossiping). His friend is a Jewish preacher, but he admitted that the truth isn't really obvious enough for the masses.
@cubieblu I understand that, its on thing to believe or disbelieve some thing and its another to actually say it out loud or use it in practice. I find myself talking things over with myself just to take a thought and put it in hearable words to see if it still holds up the same.
I found, when I debate on facebook or orther forums. People tend to either delete what they have said, or delete the post. That is really frustrating.
Thank you! You posted this =)
I am arguing with a friend on facebook we are over 100 messages in...
I loved your channel and I am 16 (17 in 2 weeks), though my channel says I am 22. =)
"Crap. I forgot to be smarmy!"
PMSL, love it!
I love his voice ;] Seriously as if im listening to the first ever atheist radio !
ALL debate is good for it opens dialogue, allows venting of emotions for a clearer view & many other things. The reason why sometimes there is heated debates is not due to the topic but the personal, emotional connection the debatee has with the topic.
Also I feel the debate sometimes goes off track. The idea is not to stop them believing - we ALL have freedom of thought - but to stop them making laws & conditions that inhibit others freedom of expression & thought.
I like the new compressed style of the yt video, without the 'hi im a big big fan!' - we all are anyway. :)
I have another type for you: The "Blackmailer". Rather than allow any argument, the Blackmailer use emotional capital to get out of it, the idea being that you're insistence that there are no gods is hurting them somehow. The display comes complete with tears and tantrums, and they take to making deals "Why can't you TRY to accept god? How can you say things like that to me? Don't you care how I feel?" I thought we were talking about God? How did this become about them? Yet is always does.
It is definitely true that debating can be a waste of time in that the person *in* the debate very often digs in and refuses to concede any ground.
BUT... Those watching and reading debates can and are very often swayed. And not only that, but I have had many open, honest debates where much later the person comes back to me conceding the points of the earlier debate. So it didn't get thru to them at the time, but it often says with them and keeps them thinking.
Why isn't this available on iTunes? Major fail there.
I met a couple of JWs a few years ago on the street. When I saw them approaching my eyebrow raised (the way they were dressed) and then they introduced themselves. I said to them " Don't waste your time or mine, guys, I'm an atheist." Their smiles faltered and just before they walked off, one of them, looking a little hopeful now, asked me if I believed in a " higher power". I shook my head and said "I do not believe in any god or higher power." Then they walked away...
I was never very religious, but hearing Hitchen's debates cemented my atheism. I think Dawkins started it for me though. So yes, debate does in fact work. It places ideas and doubts in people. That doubt coupled with some thinking leads to the shift in beliefs. The change is never instant, it happens slowly.
The "Fence Rider"
Fav. saying: Science answers what and religion answers why!
@RichieJohnSauls Ask your "feeler" friend if she has ever been in love but then found out later she was wrong. That's my favorite question to them. You can love the wrong person...therefore, your feelings and deepest convictions can ALSO be wrong!
@PlayfulGibbon I like that - shooting jesusfish in a barrel. However, the challenge is more than that - it's to transform the jesusfish into an amphibian ... and then into a sane person. So far as I've seen, it takes years for people to realize how deluded they are and how trapped. Is there a way to accelerate this to free them more quickly?
Personally for me debates raise awareness and bring people aware to topics and facts they were previously ignorant about. The debates revolving Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris for instance made me become an anti-theist.
@jasonbertles Thanks for the input, but that's not quite what I meant. I guess I should have been more specific. What I'd really like to do is just give my brother the little tidbits of information that would help him to start questioning his beliefs. The rest would be his journey, though I'd be there to help him if he asked.
So much mention of your fb page, yet no linkage in annotation or description bar? I hope I can find it on your youtube channel. :(
Wow, I could relate to many of your callers, but I love the idea that debate with even the most obstinate Christian theologian, if nothing else, gives some people a person who they can relate to and identify with. I understand that. I was convinced by seeing even the "smartest" theologian go down to someone like Christopher Hitchens or Michael Shermer. Those people who know their stuff aren't going to relate to anyone unlink them... they will say anyone unlike them isn't a "true" Christian.
Or that they never were if it's a person who freed themselves from the Christian mind-set.
Pertaining to the caller at 1:03:00 It may be that I am just too large of a pessimist but I believe the internet is a wash if not a slight advantage for the religious side. It is so much easier to disseminate false information that to fight against it. Fundamentalists groups used to be isolated. The internet has given them an amazing ability to realize there are others like them and coordinate their extremism and push their lies into the main stream.
I agree with Richard Dawkins: there's little to be gained by debating and much to be lost. It's difficult to debate against someone who refuses to stick to actual facts, very few of them are willing to admit and change their stances when proven wrong, and it legitimizes their views by appearing to take them seriously.
Actually, my roommate and I had a couple Mormons coming to the apartment once a week for almost a month, and I can honestly say that they had more answers and new more about their bible than anyone I've ever talked to.
I have only family on my Facebook page, all who are Christian and I post stuff all the time. I posted a few of these videos actually with them starting out at an interesting part of the video.
@glau2034 We are quite in agreement for the long haul. I suspect that there could be a major and rapid change to drop religions within a short period if we can get enough momentum going. I'm thinking about how the Berlin wall went down - suddenly. Maybe the only way there is the long haul and pushes to see if we can kick over the edge.
At 31:30, he is right. I was just like that. I changed after the debate, not during it...
I have known a Jehovah's Witness who de-converted. She spent years trying to convert me, and she is probably the biggest reason I am so adamantly opposed to religion now. I remember when she first de-converted, she was freaking out over a website which had all the Watchtower covers. It was a website I had shown her several years before, and she had vehemently insisted everything on it was not true.
They do listen to me. I have an ongoing debate with 2 people whom I love
@maxwahrhaftig Okay, I see. A jump ahead on my part.
Though, we should certainly keep our intended audiences at mind. Because there is such a frustration with debating in general atheist and like-minded folk need an outlet. But, it is worth listening because, like all-things, it contains valuable points regardless of presentation.
@AtheistEvan That's pretty much the way I feel about it. Debating believers lets people on the fence see that there are good arguments against that view.
In regards to the devil face in the 9/11 smoke. I would more attribute that to the brain's phenomenal ability to see faces in extremely vague patterns/images rather than chance/photoshop.
I am going to have a debate with a theologian soon because one of my friends wants me to talk to his Youth Pastor about me being an atheist.
I changed my opinion about HFCS because I was debating with someone and tried proving it was harmful but found out it's no more harmful than regular sugar
@Mogley52 well we have a modern day example the mud skipper and yes it has advantages.
I have felt/seen God a few times, but I realize that my imaginative imperfect brain was making shit up. Good episode, thanks.
I very much believe that debates on religion work.One reason I became an atheist was the theist and atheist debates on TH-cam.If you view debates with an open mind they could change your life.
Atheist = reason and truth
@S3NT13NTGL1TCH Comedy is probably the easiest way to disarm and bring down the walls and open up dialogue where ideas can be shared and discussed, as opposed to debating or arguing.
I do think we waste our time considered the debaters, but perhaps someone who listen and isn't as hardcore might get some seeds planted - as the first caller testimoned. I like the gentle planting of ideas on facebook etc. for people to think upon, rather then get in their face and make them all defensive. Keep up your good work!
I didn’t get The Who are you to question god? I usually got “do you think you could do better?” Which I used to respond “ I think even you could do better.”
I don't debate to change thier minds. I do it to strengten my knowlege. I feel when you have to defend your position you also learn it better.
@lazyperfectionist1 were you debated with the facts or did somebody just say "here are the facts, deal with them." ^_^
If it weren't for debates, I'd still be brainwashed.
@TheThinkingAtheist well, I was thinking certainly not all, but then the ones that won't fit into the sterotype aren't likely to bring it up or argue with one on their views so you won't exactly encounter them.
What is a list of the types. Fellers, folklorists and
You forgot one, the Preacher. These are the ones that want other people to believe, they know it's all bunk but will try to convince everyone they are correct for several reasons: They want to be the leader (power), they want money, or they want to be the smarter person and keep others ignorant.
@amberview30 I seem to recall Hitchens saying he hopes Christianity never completely disappears, because debating helps keep his mind sharp. So, there's that.
I'm an atheist in a catholic family, and hope to convert my little brother, age 10, to atheism. He still believes in Santa Claus, so I may want to wait a bit. Any ideas on how to plant the seed? I only have about 3 1/2 years before I move out, so he needs to be pretty convinced before he enters highschool.
I really want to help him listen to reason.
Commenting after 11 yrs, I hope you were successful...
I didn't know that it was. I'm not even sure how comments become spam. Could you give me some insights? I'm not especially savvy with the more technical side of computing.
Number six I didn't see it coming LMAO!
It concluded with an essentially complete scientific method with a workable notion of truth. Because of Robert Grosseteste at Oxford, Albertus Magnus at Paris, and other medieval scholars, it was the golden age of scientific method. Never before or since that century have the philosophy and method of science been advanced so greatly." pg. 58 Scientific Method in Practice Hugh G. Gauch Jr. (M.S. in plant Genetics from Cornell University and currently a professor there)
I was the feeler when I was Christian
@ainefairygoddess Also, just thinking about it now... Psychoanalysis is important in this aspect to understand the methodology and patterns of thought that are used in the situation. It's just as easy psychoanalyze us, so I suggest you do that. Without psychoanalysis, we wouldn't even be able to relate to one another on an emotional level to begin with. Simply put, we all psychoanalyze, even if we don't realize it.
All it takes is one seed of doubt to start the process. Probably why the devil is so feared in religious circles. The devil is not just the harbringer of evil, but he questions and stirs doubt. The "devils advocate" if you will...