Wasted 2-stroke tuning - Does all 'tuning' work? Lambretta & Vespa Scooter Tuning put to the test!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
- Wasted 2-stroke tuning - Does all 'tuning' work? Lambretta & Vespa Scooter Tuning put to the test!
There are many well-known and widely applied tuning methods used in building 2-stroke engines, When it comes to Vespa & Lambretta engines, some of those ideas have become practically entrenched in the mind of every engine builder and tuner. You know the ones, enlarge the transfers, match the ports, widen the spigot, radius the edges, match the gaskets and packers, cut the piston, etc. In this video, we reflect on a 3-part series that ran across the March, April & May 2020 editions of Scootering, where Darrell Taylor put those exact tuning methods to the test on two different engines, and dyno-tested the results back-2-back. The first unit was a 175cc Lambretta, ported cylinder, with 28mm carb and clubman exhaust. The second, was a fully tuned RB252 motor, with expansion chamber and 35mm carb, kicking out 43hp.
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I love this video brilliant. As an engineer of over 50 years I too have ALWAYS matched - it was what I was told, taught in my apprenticeship. The most I got out of this video and it is a real golden nugget about testing before and after to check efficacy something I have always done because it was always the right thing to do - right?
So for me this video has put the myth to bed and the grinding wheel back in the cupboard. Thanks Dan.
Bolti
You made a great point. The AREA of the transfer. Some are big; some not. consider the flow like a large swarm of people entering / egressing an event hall; with all it's twists and turns. sure removing a wall mounted extinguisher will help. Ditto prop the doors open. But outer radias obstruction or timber molding wont have effect; if there's a restriction due to the hall way width. A 2T engine is a fuel laden air pump. Merry Christmas all ! Paul
I bought a vespa with a 210 kit 30mm card and reed block and I was getting other vespa 200's keep up with me, when it was stripped I found out nothing had been matched so me and my mate started grinding and filling, once on the road it made a massive difference from pick up to top end but that was a Vespa and it worked for me 🤷♂️
The last four RB 252 engines I’ve built and tuned are on standard casings and are no different in performance to the ones I did previously with enlarged casing transfers, both on the road and on the dyno with the same set up (all just over 40hp) and it’s difficult to find any difference. I always match the packer plates to the casing and then to the barrel as a matter of course. Instead of being over critical of the findings why not carry out the test and put the work in just like Darrell has. You can only verbally describe a road test and there can be a certain amount of bias involved, a back to back dyno test will visually show any loss or gain and at what revs so it’s the tool for the job. The experiment was done to show losses or gains and wasn’t a fuel economy test. Road testing is always important but this wasn’t to test the reliability, ride, feel and so on of a particular build it was to find any improvements with matching casings to transfer ports.
Seems to be some questions raised about the integrity of the testing. I guess that's healthy debate and these things take time and experience to establish themselves. For my part, I trust DT so I'll be following his advice. Partly because I don't particularly enjoy matching 😁
Very interesting.
Not seen those comments... but there are known ‘doubters’ in circulation 😂
I believe that DT would’ve been very thorough in his assessments and is being honest as to the results.
As a former Lambretta racer, the only other thing I’d want to know is about how the changes affected the power curve. On a track you like the motor to come on a certain way. Personally, I like a “sweet” motor (Valentino Rossi’s word), rather than something that hits like an on/off switch.
Interesting none the less.
Thanks for the video and thanks to DT!
I did a similar thing on a smallframe vespa..parmakit sp09 rotary valve 28mm dellorto big bertha pipe. Built it without any port matching but did deck the gasket surface..went like shit of a shovel..had it in bits to put a short drt 4th gear in so decided to match the intake manifold and transfers so had extra alloy added round the transfers and set to with the burrs..looked lovely,didnt make a blind bit of difference out on the road...hours of time and a few quid for nothing.
That road testing you have implemented backs up what we are hearing from lots of people 👍
Ok but why do quattrini and pinasco make casings with transfer ports to match the size of the transfer ports on their cylinders? If it made no difference why bother with a new design and why not just copy the original PIAGGIO casings with their tiny transfer ports???
I haven't been into Lambrettas since mid 90's.
TS1 225 GP latest scooter...
This should cause some discussion and debate.
I will definitely follow this.
All the best every one!
Another good video and article in the mag, Dan. I thought the findings were fascinating. I was also surprised that a Gori 175 with a 28mm and a modified Clubman could produce 17+ bhp.
It can when tuned correctly :)
Very interesting and very surprising! I used to match every kit I fitted, Vespa and Lambretta.
Thanks Dan. I think the word folklore sums it up perfectly. For years people have asked questions on various forums (not just scooters) about tuning, and get the standard answers and opinions based on long held beliefs rather than objective testing. I’m so glad Darrell not only did this, but published it too. I recently completed a rebuild on a Puch motor that had previously had its transfer cutouts massively opened up. They were way wider than the new cylinder, and my gut feeling was to either open up the transfers to match, or weld up the cutouts. The owner didn’t want the expense of either so it was left with a massive step! Result? The motor ran really, really well...
I didn’t see Darrell’s charts - was there any impact on torque? Wondering if generating turbulence in the transfers is beneficial? Great video Dan 👍🏻
Avantone cheers bud, nice to hear from you, hope you are well.
I think, in a nutshell, there is so many other areas of improvement required in these engines, that this sort of work just has no effect. It’s mind boggling really. 😆
maybe no one is reading the magazine anymore -- enjoyed this video and commentary!
Lol... thankfully that’s not the case, otherwise I wouldn’t have a job as the editor. From the feedback we’ve been getting, it seems the article may have been written with too much ‘maths and tech’ talk, and not enough ‘plain speaking’. Somehow I manage to translate the crux of the article better in video... that gives us food for though! 👍
@@drunkmunkey6969 Hi Dan my mrs always used to buy me scooter mags id read them then they stacked up in a cupboard somewere in the house now days i prefere watching vids like yours and others on here bcas i can seen things how there done rather than my brain tryna work things out from a mag, Keep up the good work m8.
I remember when he first discussed this on your forum and got absolutely ripped to bits. He now produces the fastest and most reliable engines ever built for the Lambretta. The rest is history...
So glad I saw this, a very interesting article. I’ve been delaying fitting the crank on my GP150 rebuild until I’d got the RT195 kit and matched the casing to the transfers, not going to bother matching now. I’ll crack on with fitting the crank, chain and clutch 👍🏻.
I didn't on mine. Got that kit on an LI fitted with a Tameni GP crank 58/107, 28mm phbh and BGM V4 pipe. It's a nice quick and torquey motor, although not run in yet to try flat out.
why are you surprised at the lack of response most scootorist dont even know the difference between a four stroke and a two stroke but still maintane that they know how to tune a lambretta , BONKA's
It can only draw in the cc's of air & fuel created by the piston movement, but if the volume down there is bigger because material has been removed there is less pressure when the piston descends, there is probably an optimum but it seems on these engines it's already there as standard !
Interesting! The original lambretta engine was designed and built on basic engineering principles and leant towards fuel efficiency not performance. Slight Increases in power can be seen as models were developed over the years but only significant changes to the design of the cylinder and piston configuration will yield improved performance. This was clearly demonstrated with the introduction of the TS1 cylinder kit which was radically different to a standard barrel and the rest is history. This is exactly the same in any engine you cannot overcome inherent restrictions without altering components drastically. I imagine that most gains from early scooter sprinters etc were gained from reducing the weight of the scooter hence improving power to weight ratio and the size and weight of the rider!
when i was in my teens the tuning used to say make everything smooth, then i was watching a motor getting tuned and the fella said leave some bits rough so stuff moves around more.
Very, very interesting indeed!
Very interesting I’ve built probably around 50 different engines mallossi ts1 and rbs and remember my first build was a mallossi 210, never tuned it as I wasn’t confident at that time,after probably around 500 miles stripped it back down tuned and matched everything and it definitely made the engine run smoother but again couldn’t tell you regarding power as i never used Dynos back then , but wow I’ve been doing the same with every engine build since 🤷♂️🤭really gave me something to think about 🤔 thanks for the great context 👍
After watching this video I think back to all my old scoots of witch I always did a bottom end tune on vespas which did massive improvement s regardless of top end ,but the lambretta,s I always went for top end tuning even retuning ts1 , imola, rapido, but there was never any bottom end with the latter as it was always barrel / piston configuration . You only changed the crank on a lammy to help survive this ?? But with vespas you need to tune crank ,inlet , job lot
My basic theory is get the intake manifold shorter, straighten intake port, raise exhaust a mill , raise compression, thats it. Oh and always a minimum 4mm bigger carb:).
Checkout this 6 part series, you’d like it: www.scootering.com/scootering-classics-bang-for-buck-tuning-part-1/
Good info Dan .
We all need help.😃
Hi Dan. I've just found this nearly four years on. I'm about to put together a VMC 240 with a SIP bell crank and Malossi reed, PHBH 28 and Vespatronic. All on mildly tuned PE casings (they're from MSC in the 80s, and were home to a Pinasco 225). From the video and comments, I get the imnpression that it is worth doing the work on a large frame Vespa engine, but maybe make 90% of the effort that I was going to. Any more recent thoughts or pointers? Thanks for the great content.
Congratulations to Eric Cope and Darrell Taylor, Eric was at Elvington today and recorded a top speed of 127+mph on a full bodied GP with standard casings. RB 249cc with a rough tune and standard casings!
Any idea what Hp it was running, just interested what it would take to haul a full bodied Gp to that mental speed after all they have the aerodynamics of a house brick.
We've all done it lol. Me I don't bother anymore. If I go out on my gp I take a lovely sedate ride around the countryside. If I want to travel far on a motorway etc I go out on my harley pmsl
I've been reading about port matching enlarging transfers etc and never understood why. If I have a 20 or even 28 mm carburetor and a piston with a 50mm hole already that's over twice the area for flow. Put that hole on both sides and you have 4 times the area. Add a boost port and you have 5 times the area of more of your intake.
Interesting. I had a Monza matched and ported etc. Bloody thing would never run right after it was done. I spent half my time at rallies with the engine in bits. It eventually gave up and seized etc etc and all the bits went in the bin.
New casings and an Imola fitted. Left completely standard and it has been no trouble at all. Put it up against the other Imolas I ride with and it out performs them all. Perhaps I’m just lucky but the casings are never getting touched.
It’s strange how things work out sometimes 😁👍
Would like to see same thing applied to a vespa to see if would produce same results as the lambretta. Food for thought...
hungdog2003 yup, agree. As per video commentary, maybe less so on a T5 and more so on a PX210? 👍
I might just do that 👍🏻
I've always thought that polishing and porting on a scooter engine (Lambretta or Vespa) was a waste of time/money/effort for very little in return. But, by the same token, I always thought that a tidy up of imperfections in castings (intake manifolds etc) increased efficiency at least, not for performance as such, but to burn fuel more efficiently and for the engine to run better and be more reliable as a result. I guess the difference between performance and efficiency is the cloudy area. For high performance engines, racing etc, where every extra HP can be the difference between 1st or 2nd at the end of the race, yeah, I get it, but these versions of porting and polishing are extreme compared with 60 yr old Lambretta upgrades.
Great video scooter factory, very interesting, i guess all said and done the radiusing and chamfering etc only helps on far better design racing engines like you say, and the 60 year plus old lambretta crankcases are not good enough to make any real difference!. Hence Casa now redesigning the whole lot for the massive power increases!
My constructive feedback would be, TURN THE MICROPHONE VOLUME UP, my old ears cant hear you.
Lol... you know what, even I played it back and thought... what the hell? Turns out I didn’t have my mic plugged in 🤦🏻♂️. I shall improve audio quality in future! 😂👍
The reason the effect of porting the case is minimal is because Lambrettas are barrel induction. Also there may not be an increase in power on the dyno, but it could accelerate smoother and therefore be faster on the road or the track.
Despite being barrel induction, the mix still has to go through the spigot/piston/base transfer passage... so not sure how that is relevant? Similar tests were carried out by others on Vespa (Marco from LTH) with similar results to Darrells. Previous tests on other non Lambretta/Vespa cases/kits has also been seen. If no power increase occurs.... how would it accelerate ‘smoother’? 👍
Great video 👍
Very intreasting!
fascinating ..... and almost unbelievable. If it wasn't Darrel I would probably dismiss this as an April fool joke.I really enjoyed the Bang for Buck for buck series and will look out the magazine articles and have a good read about the tuning tests.thanks for posting
It defies everything we’ve been doing for the past few decades... 😂
I ported matched 186 muggy on my lis and it made it run worse believe it or not .
I still feel like matching must do something, because if the difference is big enough it wil definitely be a bottleneck
‘Feel’ being the key word in your comment. To test is to know. 👍
Great post this, very interesting..
you need to adjust your soub=nf level you are very quiet and when you turn your head away even quieter
Yup,I've just realised that myself, and have now adjusted all mic settings for future recordings. Sorry for the poor audio level in this one.
I have just come across this item. Question? was there a reed valve involved? 360 breathing, intake charge speed against volume of intake charge out-striping the flow capacity of the transfer port sizes at the cylinder? this over supply maintaining equal flow rate! In the engineering world there is an answer ! what was the ultimate findings of Darrell?
Wow, all that work for naught! That’s another part of our black magic being taken away by imperial testing 🙃 the time savings alone will convert in to massive gains in riding time!
its interesting that AF just bolted there TS1 200 straight in to there casing and it rocketed to 92 mph 🙄 altho @ 8700 thats only 85mph ish the fact it was bolt on stands the test of time
I'm not technically gifted, but I was always aware that if any lambretta had the tunning mentioned in this video the gains where limited. I knew this as i rode with these "tuned" scooters before and after and their performance after the work was marginally improved. I never did it. I did however recently lose 1.5 stone, my TS1 is the fastest it's ever been! If you want your scooter to go faster / be more economical lose weight first. Can I ask, has the Casa SSR 265 resolved the issue of the restrictions you highlight?
I’m not sure what your question is on the 265? The testing was on the Gori 175 and the RB252. In order to know what the effect is of transfer size on the SSR is, it would have to be tested. I can only imagine that the test on that kind of engine is a moot point though? 👍
@@drunkmunkey6969 Thanks, you answerd me.
Now what if you do all that and tune the pipe and carb accordingly?
Very informative so what would be the most cost effective upgrade to a Li150 engine. Reliability & speed being optimum?
If the scooter is otherwise standard, take a look at the ‘Bang For Buck’ séries on Scootering website. Although that was based around a standard GP200, a lot of the principles hold true for your engine. The whole series is online, here’s part 1: www.scootering.com/scootering-classics-bang-for-buck-tuning-part-1/
i,ve been wondering the same Q as you, i nearlly died when i seen the price of a casa lambretta engine the cost being £8,000 plus. lol
I Got a px all plug and play, no tuning to the kit or cases, .
177 pinasco, mazza bell crank, sip road 2 pipe, phbh 26, parmakit variable ignition.. made 12.38 wheel hp . Quite disappointed 🤔 don't know what to do to get more 😴
Bellcrank… are you running a reedvalve?
@@drunkmunkey6969 non reed valve but upon reading more into my pinasco alu touring kit, they only ment to make 12.5 hp. . So with that info I think I'm winning at 12.4...🙏🤞
Maybe nobody reads scootering magazine anymore. The only person I know is a family member who doesn't ride & his legendary TV200 is a Samsung.
15 minutes of anecdotal information. Instead of just talking you should show the tests too, “to test is to know." The entire video is just taking your word for it.
Would blueprinting help Kool the piston bearings?
No :)
Thanks
Could you recommend a jetting for a sx200 li 150 Italian gears bhph28 mm with a gt200 kit?
Does blueprinting help
No
@@drunkmunkey6969 thanks, I’ll never waist that time again
Mad Ted.
Can I mention the very large elephant in the room? Dyno's have been around on the scooter tuning scene for twenty years plus now. So why has no one ever done this before? I would have thought it was bleeding obvious to do such a thing. Obviously not.
Good point! lol. I guess most people measure the starting figures, then implement a 'tuning package' before testing again, and if the overall number is higher, then job done. Darrell is quite good at testing for knowledge though, rather than just as a paid job, which is why we get this information :)
@@drunkmunkey6969 unfortunately I don't have access to a dyno but as an engineer I know the importance of testing, mine consists of the old fashioned method of seeing what my arse tells me and I'm envious of those who can afford a dyno. On the matter of matching ports etc it's a matter of principle to not only make it go but also to make it look a professional job, ill fitting components show someone who is careless and can't be bothered, it's the port timings, shape, compression ratio and squish that affect the power output but it's how you finish the job that is also important. I wouldn't buy something that looks rough and I wouldn't expect anyone else to.
Yes, that an interesting and valid point which I agree with... something I’ll also be addressing in a follow up.
Refund requests abound
why not try to raisining all roof of transfer port windows in cylinder and widening exhaust port to max and raising the roof of the exhaust port window and lowering the inlet port window, and machine bigger hole i inlet on cylinder where carb is fitted, and do the test with the same high rpm expansion chamber and test the difference between none ported windows and ported, i think this is much more intressenting too see hp and rev range differences and caracteristics on bench testing engine, keep the same ignition retard/advance and everything else the same, only ported vs none ported windows in cylinder, and keeping the same flow pattern/diretction of flow in the ports, there must be a big difference? if you have for example inlet port orginal 150degrees and lower the floor to get 190degrees, and also raising transfer roof's from for example 120degrees to 136degrees and raising exhaust roof from for example 175 to 200degrees and use the same high rpm exhaust chamber suitable for the ported setup goals and measure the differences between ported vs stock cylinder? single cylinder setup too keep it simple between 65-250cc and use the same bore on both setup.
Like-10
Saya suka vespa
OMG will not tweek a basic set-up; just up grade parts.
Thats not tuning ? If you havnt changed port timings and port area all you are doing is matching not tuning ????????
TheSteelweasel... the changes discussed are common ‘tuning’ principles as per Jennings, Bell, Robinson et al. Matching, flowing, enlarging case transfers, enlarging case/cylinder spigots, piston flowing etc are routinely done by lots of engine builders. Both test motors in this article first had cylinder port tuning done, and were set up on the Dyno, then these changes were retrospectively applied in order to ascertain their isolated effect. 👍
@@drunkmunkey6969 yes that's just making a nice job and possible better flow, but it wont change performance, but it could improve fuel consumption ? your friend should know if you don't change port timings or port area you wont get more power . and if i ever had port work done by someone i would expect it to look good and not like it came from india ????? sorry buddy my opinion .
No need to apologise bud, I welcome different opinions. I used to make my living running a scooter garage and Dyno centre, so I hear what you are saying.... for some reason, customers do like to see a ‘pretty porting job’. It’s interesting though, he tuned the RB252 up to 43hp without doing the discussed modifications, then tore the motor down to test the principles... and there was no difference.
I guess if someone asked me, do you want the modifications which look good, or the ones that work... I know what my answer would be. 😁👍
@@drunkmunkey6969 I don't do stuff that don't work and your friend was trying to prove a piont so he may be some what bias ? If someone else did the same test then it's verified. Until then I tune my way . Best regards Steve
@@TheSteelweasel the results prove the point. You think the guy who took the time to do all the work, measure the results and publish them went to all that trouble because he was biased? I would imagine that there may have previously been no response to the article in the magazine because people don't like to be proved wrong, particularly those that tune and build engines for a living and will have charged for the work discussed in the video.
How about you do the same measured tests and either verify or challenge his findings?
It could result in you spending fewer hours completing and charging for unnecessary work though!
When did British people start calling engines motors?
At the same time we invented fire and the wheel… 🥸
Oh I have only noticed it very recently. I thought it was just a modern thing we have adopted from America.
@@russ4294 No, you're thinking of McDonalds... ;)
What’s going on with your t shirt?