Street Epistemology - Mormonism - Praying to know its true
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- In this discussion, I talk with two Mormon missionaries about their belief in Mormonism, and how praying to know its true led them to that belief.
Follow me on Facebook:
/ raulstreetknowledge
I love the poisoning the well. "If you are seeking with an honest heart ..." So if you come to a different conclusion, you obviously were not asking with an honest heart.
As an exmormon I could always see stuff like that for the deceptive bullshit it was but it still worked to make me feel guilty for having doubts about my religion.
@@theTYTAN3 so where is this planet called Kolob? Or is it a star?
@@fuuz642According to mormon doctrine Its out in space many many many lightyears away from us. The doctrine isn't 100% clear on where it is or whether it's a planet or a star the general consensus is it's a star system, with the planet god lives on in it. The planet may be named after the star or vice versa. Higher ups may be taught more specifics.
When I was in the church the hymn "If You Could Hie to Kolob" was one of my favorites, but kolob was very rarely talked about in classes, and was subject to different interpretations by different teachers.
@@theTYTAN3 all right. how do you get there?
@@fuuz642 That was never 100% clear. I think since god is supposed to live there it implies that Kolob is the same place as the Celestial kingdom but I never heard that explicitly stated, so I suppose the mormon answer is "if you can get there its through a combination of faith and works". I imagine if we figure out Faster than light travel and tried to go there directly than the mormon God would shoot us down with his brain lasers or something.
Ha! Hahaha!
As an ex-mormon, I want to make it explicitly clear for anyone watching: I am 10x happier since leaving the Church. And no, I still don't do drugs or have sex or even drink. Happiness is not tied to a set of random rules someone decided on.
Stephen Holloway you’d be happier with sex and drugs lol
Man this degenerate life really sucks BAHAHAHA :P .... incel
Lmao so if you aren't God believing or Mormon you must be a self loather? I guess I shouldn't be working in the medical field hahahah! Oh and my Army medic wife is self loathing too.... fuck you hahaha
sex before marriage is okay. but uh there is a correlation for woman's number of sexual partners and happiness. (less = happier) I hypothesize its best to have meaningful relationships instead of hookups for maximizing happiness.
Also drugs can be okay. Like alcohol is something i was always afraid of in the idea of brain damage and its poison to the body, but whatever i tried it every now and then and it makes for a fun time with friends. Maybe drink while playing a game with people, or idk.
Drugs like marijuana were actually really crazy, but interesting to try. However I did it with bong I think so it reduced the amount of smoke/crap(which i hate) and was more of just the THC. (this is what i think i did) anyways it hit me hard and i was hilarious for a while.
But seriously, those who dont learn history are doomed to repeat it. Joseph smith, a con artist, cult leader, charlatan, multiple wives person has happened many times in the past before. And people eat up their lies like candy.
Hard to tell why you left but anyone has the right to use his free agency o been in church for 30 years i left once i went tru alot i returned to church o can firmily sustain that there is God and devil i did bot know that until i separated from church i still fight battles with that being is real. i remain im church even when i am free to leave if i want to, but since i know now the difference and where i want to end up i choose to remain.
39:35 "If you we don't arrive at the same conclusion, even though the method and outcome are purely subjective, you're being dishonest."
This is so sad.
Well done on your interview! Keep it up!
I was one of those missionaries a short time ago. I also had that smug look whenever there were deep questions being asked. Like, "I know this sounds crazy but..." kinda smile. I also was repulsed at the idea that the missionary on the left admits that he came to teach people about how they should devote their life to God without actually knowing if it was true. This practice is still taught today. "Just go on a mission and testify, and you'll then know that's it's true." But it's true, so this isn't immoral... /s sickening.
I was so sad to see the indoctrination unfold so perfectly.
Great composure SK. Loved the video.
Paul Brown Thanks. The indoctrination and uncritical acceptance of Mormon beliefs is obvious. I hope I made them feel a little uncomfortable at least.
Sad thing is a lot of them are born into it and don’t know better. Social media has made a huge impact on that hence the quick drastic changes being made by n recent years. Can’t wait to see what else they change!
"Spreading the word" is often less about finding new converts, and more about getting the current members to reinforce their existing beliefs. By repeating the arguments and attempting to convince others, they're actually talking themselves into belief constantly! That's what the church really wants.
Honest question Paul. How do you think it is that you managed to break this kind of mindset? Because the barriers these two put up were titanium-clad. SK truly did an incredible job and had great patience, but the way his questions were deflected against these barriers had me astounded at times. It is difficult to see any possible way through, and yet you did so.
I'm asking a lot, I know, but a detailed reflection of your process of knocking down these barriers would be INCREDIBLY valuable - not just for the insight of how to talk to someone in such a mindset, but also for the reassurance it would give to practitioners of SE. Because it's conversations like this that can really leave me stumped and disheartened at times.
And yet, we know it is possible for fully indoctrinated people to break out. Such examples are important to keep sharing, just to remind us that no one is ever lost, and no effort is wasted.
I'd be real interested to hear it. Thanks and peace.
@@raulcardona4491 Thinking you are doing Gods work but you are doing the opposite.
Kevin was my co-worker. A transplant to Utah, he was the only non-Mormon on my team. He belonged to a Bible church and was truly devout. Humble, kind, sincere... a very real 'Christian', he always struck me as more manifestly religious than any of my mormon co-workers. So much so that I wondered why he hadn't yet joined The One True Church on the face of the earth. One day after work, in a conversation that I remember for its rare turn to personal questions about religion, I asked him. He quietly, sincerely, told me how he HAD actually taken the discussions -- on his OWN initiative. He said after living around Mormons for a while, he had come to understand their claims. He took them seriously. He had a wife and small children. If the Mormons' claim was correct, that only through the Mormon church could he live together forever with his family, then by God he needed to investigate and verify that claim! He told me he read the entire Book of Mormon, studied it! pondered, prayed -- with real intent -- for months. He said one day in prayer, his answer finally came: God revealed to him that Mormonism was false and the Book of Mormon a "great deception, to lead people astray". I knew Kevin well enough that I could not question his integrity, his sincerity, his "effort" or "real intent when asking God if these things were not true." I wish these missionaries could have met him before he passed away. I wonder what they would tell him about his experience, how they would categorize it. Actually, I don't wonder. I already know, having been just like these guys once -- young, naive, programmed and indoctrinated to believe I had superior knowledge than folks like this interviewer. While Kevin's experience planted some early seeds of cognitive dissonance for me, it was actually the hundreds upon hundreds of OTHER evidences (and lack of evidences) that finally broke me out of the bubble that these young Elders find themselves in. They may look back on this interview in years to come and find that it (hopefully) planted a few seeds of the importance of reason, logic, and evidence -- time will tell.
I hope you can come to the truth within the church again. And dont tell me I am brainwashed. I was not planning on going on a mission. 1 year ago that changed. And now I am going to be leaving in 2 months to serve the Lord and bring people to the light of the restoration. I was not brainwashed at all and have seen all of the anti stuff relating topics of every sort. But they have been the same claims since the 1800s and have been debunked over and over and over again. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christs church here on this earth today, and he restored the Priesthood and its keys to the Prophet Joseph Smith. Who I KNOW had something special happen to him. What he says happened to him... Happened. And whatever you want to say, God knows it happened too.
A very productive conversation that prompted several moments of thoughtful reflection. Bear in mind that for many believers, evidence works in reverse. They don’t follow evidence to it’s logical conclusion. The conclusion comes first. To count as evidence, something must only confirm their pre-existing belief. Things that disconfirm or otherwise lead away from their belief cannot exist, are not valid, are not actual evidence, or are dismissed for any reason that they can think up. So the way they distinguish between valid and invalid personal experiences that are nonetheless identical, is that one leads to their foregone conclusion and the other does not. This points squarely in the direction of faulty reliability which unfortunately did not really come up in this conversation.
Robert Hamilton Man, that's a great point. Why do they choose to trust in this kind of prayer experience if people can come to such different conclusions? Definitely wish I would have touched on that.
Yes yes yes. Having been a Mormon missionary myself, I had those confirmation biases and experiences cognitive dissonance when people started to ask questions. Watching the entire video the Elders are going in circles. Circular reasoning.
I noticed that the Elder on the right made the Salt analogy. The Salt 🧂 analogy is taught by the top leadership and in the church educational system. I learned to use that to people questioning the validity of Mormonism or to Atheists. So using the Salt analogy is the way they can to not answer the question.
I gotta give it to these guys they’re very skillful at giving non-answers.
ian - what would be an actual answer if you were to here one?
They go to a training center to learn how to give those kinds of fluff answers before being sent out to their mission site.
It's not that they're giving non-answers - it's that they don't know how to process the question. They're answering the question the best that they can although to them the question isn't really answerable. It's really more of a formula that if you do X & Y then you'll get Z. There is no other way. If you don't get Z then you must be working the formula incorrectly from their perspective. One of them actually basically said as much when he said he's tasted the salt and wouldn't really believe someone who told him there's no such thing as salt.
@@h8a1c3 That's not what they're taught at their training center. They're taught about how to find people to teach, how to extend commitments, and how to work with their companions and keep records.
The missionary on the right seems pissed because he knows there are no actual logical answers to your genuine questions.
SailingSeignior Yeah, and I know they won't admit that right there and then. But hopefully it makes them uncomfortable at some point.
Wrong once you cone to know God ,noone can tell you other ways. If you dont believe check paul's experience in the bible and check his writings.
@@mandilon3373 Have you ever heard of someone deconverting? How do you explain people deconverting?
Wow, the Elders are playing mental gymnastics on themselves. And of course, making assumptions that people don’t believe because they’re drinking, having sex, etc....
I used to be a Mormon missionary myself (2002-2004) and so I would give these cookie cutter answers and play mental gymnastics 🤸♀️ on myself. I would have been mad at you and crossed you off. Thank you for continuing to probe them and using logic.
For me personally the most important moment in this conversation happens at 33:31 when the guy with short sleeve shirt says the following: "What would be the purpose of going away to nothing". This is very important and interesting statement. For him obviously there is nothing outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and to even think of something outside is wrong, dangerous, and impossible. Even more, outside the Church there is nothingness, oblivion, no morals, no affirmation of life, no presence of god. Therefore, for strong believers, atheism is almost unthinkable.
Josip Cmrečnjak I agree, very interesting. It really does give good insight into their mindset.
It is not that there is nothing outside of the church and everything is evil. You are missing the message.
Bravo to these missionaries. I was ambushed plenty of times on my mission. They are taught to teach the basics of the gospel of Christ and focus on inviting others to come unto Him. They honestly are not taught to contend with those who have no desire to know more than what they already do or who haven’t already been prepared. Atheists and other religious people join, they leave, they return to or come unto belief all the time.
Life is fun! Let’s be kind to one another, I prefer a roadmap as do many others and we’re just providing that to those who are seeking.
It sounds like he met them ~1 month previously, explained the purpose of his TH-cam channel, and scheduled this conversation. Can you help me understand what you mean by "ambush"?
Their method has no corrective mechanism. There is no way, in their eyes, that anyone that believes In Mormonism can be wrong about Mormonism.
They almost, or in fact do, presuppose that Mormonism is true.
How is this reliable?
Muslims say the same thing about Allah.
Christians say the same thing about Jesus.
Can’t all be true.
Can all be wrong.
I’m not seeing any way to distinguish between the methodology and specifically the reliability of that methodology between any of these beliefs.
It must be hard to be part of a society and social group that would reject you if you stopped believing.
That’s religious tribalism in action.
Religions don't point towards truth, only indoctrination. The "founders" of some, not all, religions pointed toward Truth. Over time, these teachings have been distorted, re-designed to gain adherents and ensure its survival. Thus, Truth can only be reliably found where there is no contradiction in doctrine or ideology, and consistency in the qualities of direct experience. This Truth cannot be conveyed or communication using words or language. Until one recalls their true nature, one is wholly identified with the discriminating mind and immersed in social indoctrination. If one loses the ability of letting go of deluded conceptions, attachment to form will drag them back into the phenomenal world, thus solidifying the illusion of materialism that leads to rebirth.
Yes it is. I live it everyday with family that no longer talks to me. They love the religion so much, they would not think twice about letting me go.
“If it’s not true then none of it is”. Well said. Except you’ve come to the wrong conclusion: it’s clearly a fabrication and all untrue.
I am sorry
If only they new about the true history of the LDS church. What a crazy cult.
Some of them know it and they don't care. It is true in their hearts and they know it when they pray. The holy spirit himself talks to them
@@fuuz642 and some of them are just under the peer pressure/family pressure to stay in the church. it would mean changing their life so much, its easier to just stay where they are.
@@tombombadil1351 yeah, I was being sarcastic.
anyway, I don't give a fuck about peoples silly beliefs and why they may or may not hold them, as long as they don't come knocking on my door
Just jump to 45:10 to get to the heart of the matter.
It's true because it's true and if you pray in accordance with the book that states its own truth value then you'll be convinced also.
Nice clean shirts, though.
Have you read the bible? Have you looked into TRUE church history? probably not. You listen to the same lies or half truths that have been recycled over and over since the 1800s and have been debunked over and over and over again.
29:38 "I'm trying to think of something bitter, but I couldn't think of anything so cereal is the best thing"
Coffee. Coffee is bitter
As an exmormon I'd suggest avoiding using any sort of negative terminologys for mormonism; ie never ask them if: "something would mean their belief is untrue?" ask them: "what that thing would say about their belief?"
As soon as someone says something that can be construed as negative about the church, that person is percieved as anti mormon or the opposition, and the mormons will shore up their walls and go on the defensive.
You did an excellent job, talking to people like this is extremely difficult and I'm not sure I'd do any better, but I'm afraid they'll come out of this seeing you as someone who's been twisted by satan, and they'll feel vindicated in their beliefs.
I'd also point out that an answer of "No" to prayers is something that Mormons say would be percieved as a knot in your stomach, or a feeling (perhaps of fear) that tells them they need to avoid that thing they were praying about.
One of my favorite SE videos. Outstanding interview skills.
One thing though. I think it’s, “hypothetically speaking,” not, “theoretically speaking.”
2 Tone Tony Cool, thanks!
So my story is particularly relevant here. TL/DR; I had the exact experience they claim it is impossible to have. I was once a true believing Mormon. Like all true believing Mormons I prayed often to strengthen my belief (testimony). I had received a "yes" answer many times when I needed a boost to my testimony. I was not, as the Elder suggested, wanting to live in opposition to the teachings of God according to Mormon doctrine; I merely wanted to be sure that what I believed was true. One day when I really needed an affirmation that what I was teaching my children was, in fact, true, it occurred to me that I had only ever received "yes" answers, but that I had also only ever phrased the question to get a "yes" answer. So this time, I essentially just turned the question upside-down. I prayed asking if the reason why I kept getting a "yes" answer could be due to the fact that my own brain was merely generating that answer in response to my desperate desire to believe, rather than that answer actually coming from God.
The response I got was just as powerful and just as undeniable as any other "yes" I'd ever received. The kind of answer that brings tears to your eyes and fullness to your heart. I have since found that I can get that same feeling anytime I want by merely meditating a certain way, with no question and no prayer at all. It's a response in the brain, and nothing more. I know a true believing Mormon would say that your answers are far too real and powerful to have come from your brain, but have you considered that everything you feel and everything you perceive is merely a construct of your brain in response to stimuli? Nothing you experience is real except as it is processed by your brain. And this includes your "yes" answers. To use your example, I'm not saying that salt doesn't exist; I'm saying that I also know what salt tastes like, but what you're saying is salt is actually lye.
I had no reason to want the church to not be true. It meant having the ground yanked out from under me. It meant re-evaluating my entire life. It meant being ostracized by my friends and family. It meant being perceived by those in the church as being sinful and weak, just as you claim I must be in order to turn away from the church. It brought me nothing in return except the truth. I don't even like coffee and I think cigarettes are disgusting. The only drugs I do are prescribed by my doctor. The only person I have sex with is my spouse. I will admit that I have found sleeping in on Sundays to be a perk, but certainly not enough of one to compel me to throw away more than three decades of faithful service to the church, with all the callings, and tithing, and hours, and energy (both emotional and physical) that I have invested in it.
Incidentally, contrary to your claims, and I guess you'd just have to take the word of an anonymous TH-cam commenter, but there is no sadness shadowing over my life nor darkness in my eyes/countenance. I have more joy in my life than I ever had as a Mormon, although I no longer attribute that joy to a deity. I raised my children with critical thinking skills and taught them how to evaluate any and all truth claims to determine their veracity so that they could decide what to believe for themselves, rather than merely teaching them to believe what I believe. I don't have all the answers to life and neither do they, but they will draw closer to the true answers than they ever could if I merely told them what to believe. I live free of doubt and free of guilt, knowing that I raised them with integrity and open, frank honesty. I still have tragedy in my life like everybody else. Neither Mormons nor ex-Mormons are exempt from tragedy. But I also still have moments of profound beauty and happiness. Mormons don't have a monopoly on joy, either. Incidentally of all my siblings, I am the only one to have turned away from the church. I have two siblings who are now divorced, two others on the verge of it, three who are struggling with pornography, and one who is in prison. Yet I'm still considered the black sheep of the family simply because I reached a different conclusion about the truth of the Mormon church. Yeah, sure; I left the church because I just wanted to sin... I think the evidence clearly shows that there's no need to leave the church if you want to sin.
I would also like to add for anyone who finds themselves in the position of these Elders, should they ever read these comments, that it is deeply hurtful, as well as offensive, when you make the bold assertion that my answer, being in disagreement with your answer, can only be due to a lack of effort, sincerity, or genuine desire to know the truth on my part. It is spitting in the face of my life's experiences. You do not know how many hours I have lain awake until the early morning light, praying fervently for guidance and truth. It was not merely my own life and salvation at stake, but that of my children whom I love more than myself. One day, if you Elders ever have children of your own, you might begin to understand what that feels like. The truth claims of the Mormon church were simply not convincing enough on their own merit, and after much prayer neither were the "yes" answers I had received, for the reason already stated above. They fell apart once I truly understood that they were merely a reflection of my own brain easing my desire to believe the truth against the rational doubts that I had. Nobody could possibly have been more genuine or valiant in seeking the truth. As for what somebody would want to replace their belief in the church, my answer is simple; truth. Truth for truth's sake. Isn't that a worthy enough goal?
Savant Thank you so much for sharing your story. My experience with leaving Christianity was similar, as far as having to endure the suspicion and shame because of my honest doubts. So glad to see that you emerged out the other side of your experience as a better person.
Wow thanks for sharing that , I found it an amazing story of human achievement , all the best
I stopped believing a long time ago, but I've told only a very few trustworthy people, I feel as though telling the people in my life, would alienate me from them and I'd be left with nothing. Your story is inspiring it gives me some hope.
Beautifully written story, friend.
Wow, very well said and full of insight. Thank you so much for your comment. I can relate to your experience so well. I am at the beginning of the awakening stage as I've been seeing the issues with the church (Polygamy still being practiced in the temple sealings, LGBTQ policies, racism, the Purity Culture and Prosperity Gospel teachings, lying about the history of the church, Patriarchy and following an all male leadership) and raising my daughters in that environment doesn't feel right. I've read my scriptures every day for the past 20 years. Served in Elders Quorum presidencies, primary, young men's and Bishoprics. Attended the temple 12-24x/yr depending on where I was living, read the BofM over 20 times, and on and on. You can't tell me I'm not sincere, don't have real intent, or haven't put in the effort when I get an answer that is NO! The church and Book of Mormon are NOT TRUE. Thank you for being brave and blazing the trail! You have chosen the harder right. You and I have no reason or incentive to want the church to be false. There is nothing but challenges when your family is Orthodox. I hope you are still doing well! If you have any parenting tips, please reach out! Thanks again.
You are so damn good at this. I don't have the discipline and patience, so I support SE in other ways.
I agree he has patience but I'm not sure how to qualify this as evidence of him being good at it. I would think that the whole point of this process is to draw attention to their blind spots, get them to question their fundamental beliefs and assumptions, but it didn't seem like they wavered in their faith in the slightest. How effective is this approach anyway?
You are expecting too much of both Raul (Interviewer) and the Mormons in suddenly have a transformation in front of our eyes. Street Epistemology is getting pebbles in their shoe. If the Mormons are honest then they will mull over those questions daily. If they aren't then they will brush the questions aside and charge on ahead.
Great interview and questions. This is kind of hard to watch for me, considering I was one of these guys for 2 years, and having doubts about it the whole time. On a few occasions we came across people that gave some hard questions similar to what's asked here. These things resonated in my mind and helped to lead me out of the church and religion altogether a few years later. I'll bet you the blond kid (seems pretty similar to me) will be an atheist 5 years from now ;)
@Hale Hafa nah I'm good. I'm much happier having left the cult behind.
@@mattox21 It is not a cult, and actually the closest thing to the bible that there is.
Anytime two people begin their phrasing with “we believe...” it not only sounds cultish to me but more so confirms that they are speaking from a place of institutionalized indoctrination and displaying the inability to form an original thought.
Here's a salt analogy:
If you haven't been fervent enough to pray and get understanding from Allah, then how are you in any position to say that they are wrong (and that you're right).
Haven't they made it up in their mind already that Allah is not God?
Silhouette Good one. I would like to ask them that.
And the Muslims have the same problem. They are Muslims because they believe it.
Merlyn Schutterle yeah, that was my point. Outsider's Test of Faith
sigh...
The method that Mormonism puts forward is an exercise in self-deception. That is what the elders essentially described!
If you didn't arrive at the conclusion that the method _claims_ you will get, then you haven't put enough effort into the method. The nature of the method is such that you couldn't tell the difference between deceiving yourself into _thinking_ you got an answer from a god, and _actually_ getting an answer from an actually existing god.
The method _is meant precisely_ to make believers out of non-believers. Intellectual integrity _does not matter._
What needs to be addressed is the integrity of the method _itself._ The method's reliability needs to be analyzed _externally_ to make sure that it is _not_ an exercise in self-deception _before_ someone follows the method.
Yes. The method itself is setting up the person to commit to first supposedly acknowledging this god exists, then studying the scripture, then put in maximum effort to 'talk' to this supposed god with the expectation that failure to believe it is all the fault of the person not being strong enough. Surprise surprise - look at what conclusion they come to.
It is actually a BRILLIANT cult tactic. Each Mormon is essentially involved in self-hypnosis. Their belief is not based on any evidence. It is based on a good feeling that they have individually decided is the Holy Ghost confirming that Mormonism is true. Confirmation bias on steroids.
Your own vrain has deceived you you cam distinguish truth from error
I thought of a great question for when the salt thing came up. " how can i know who's description of salt is more accurate if i can't taste the salt" great videos though.
dan theman Right. Another one would be, if everyone is coming to different conclusions about what salt really tastes like, what does that say about the reliability of tasting as a method?
Street Knowledge yep. There are so many ways to ask these questions. I don't envy you having to try and do it on the spot.
These guys really need to get to know and talk to some real ex-Mormons. I've been one for 6 years. At one point I just couldn't believe anymore. I no longer got those spiritual feelings that I thought meant it was true, once I realized the church teachings were against things I really believed in like equality and science and real free will. I started getting strong feelings that it wasn't true. I hadn't done anything to become "sinful" when my feelings were changing. Then it just got even worse once I found out about the unsavory history and doctrines that were previously hidden from me about Mormonism. I don't do any of the things they think ex-Mormons do like party, alcohol, drugs, etc. I am very happy with my religious/spiritual beliefs now, they give me room to question and search and believe freely. I no longer decide the conclusion, and then force myself to come to it. I still love my family and want to do good by my fellow human beings. My morals are even more developed and stronger than they were before. Since I no longer believe in a god that would ask someone to murder and expect blind obedience, like they do.
Thanks for sharing, Emily. I agree, they need to actually meet some ex-Mormons. Their prejudice is clear, and it is sad how their beliefs have poisoned their view of other fellow human beings.
Emily, hopefully by now you have resigned?
It's like these guys have never found it so difficult to duck the question. But they didn't complain and tried to answer. They don't seem to know the value of the phrase " I don't know".
The thing to remember is that these young men honestly believe that God himself has told them that Mormonism is "true". And so for them, anybody who prays and receives an answer that conflicts with Mormonism is wrong. They have to be wrong because Mormonism is true.
Ex: When I was in my early teens reading the Book of Mormon, I got to the part where Nephi reports seeing horses in the Americas. I asked a friend about this. His response was, "Yeah, isn't it interesting that there were horses here during that time?" And I thought, "Oh right, because Mormonism is true." That change in my thinking allowed me to keep believing for another two dozen years.
Interesting. So what made you start to doubt your Mormon faith?
Street Knowledge He just uploaded a video explaining precisely that.
@The Drunken Philosopher There is no way possible for example that one out there could investigate the Mormon persuasion (Jesus Christ) thoroughly and then turn around and say that it's not true.
They have been trained well to ignore falsifiability
I would LOVE to be in this conversation, because I'm that exact hypothetical example they've been talking about. I served a mission and had many callings, and I tried with all my heart and I still got no. And ly lifestyle remained pretty much unchanged for like 2 years. I'd love to meet these missionaries and point out their logical fallacies
Person centred interview,well presented by the Street Epistemologist. The LDS Elders are well presented and I can understand that they have been indoctrinated from an early age to be guided by the Book of Mormon. Many come from a strong LDS support network, that makes them immune from logical and reasonable questioning. As Street Epistemology enthusiasts, we can study the Book of Mormon, and acquire a reasonable understanding. We can encourage a LDS to make wise choices if they are put into situations where ridiculed or mocked within their own community and the Book of Mormon has no more relevant answers.
Thank you to the individual who liked my comment.
So interesting to watch a few years after escaping the religion. I was one of those missionaries. I know how they think. This is wild.
Hi, from Liverpool UK 🇬🇧. New sub here. Love the way you kept reiterating the questions they were trying to answer via a scripture, or bringing up honey Vs cereal analogy 🤷🏼♂️🤣. You had them on gas mark 6 for 45 mins 💯👊🏻. Also, the fella in the short sleeve shirt had his arms crossed *the whole time* ...he was not a happy bunny from the get-go 👀
Welllll, look at the time. We gotta go
The bit about killing someone (11:35) incapacitated if the sprirt whispers it was unsettling.
Bible Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice.
@@heatherluna5075 exactly. What a horrific story and terrible theology to emphasize into the future. If you feel prompted to help people, great. If you feel prompted to kill people, see a doctor.
Jeremiah 17:9 says...
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?. Base your faith on the foundation of Jesus. Will pray for these guys to search for the truth. It is hard to go against what you've been taught to believe, so I understand why they can't hear the truth. We must all pray for them. I feel so sad when people are led astray by false gospels. We know our God is great, so we must trust Him to direct these young men's steps.
At first all I thought I heard was "Blah, Blah, Blah"
Then, as I listened closer, I heard, "Baa, Baa, Baa"
Every answer they gave had to have the spin that without question Mormonism is true. They didn't listen to the questions honestly, but just tried to come up with an answer that validated their belief.
They feared that if they answered logically and truthfully, that you were going to shout, "A Ha!"
In their minds, every person that hears their sales pitch will be compelled to believe it.
blisguy True. I think my favorite part was at the end when Elder Stay admitted, "It would be logical. But the answer is that this IS the truth." He was forced into an admittedly illogical position, and I hope that stays with him and, at some point, begins to bother him.
@Street Knowledge You people are always bothering people.
+Richard Holmes so are Mormons with their door-to-door intrusion.
Mormons claim they are "Christians" but when they knock on the door of a Christian home that expresses that confidence, they seem to think they still need to indoctrinate these people. If Mormons are "Christians", why would they need to continue to speak to other Christians and not just leave saying they are happy for them and move on?
Why? Because Mormons are not Christians and want to convert other Christians to their membership roster. They aren't interested in making people Christians, they are only interested in collecting new members.
New Mormon congregations created in 2016: Down by 27%. New converts made in 2016: Down by 6.7%. The current activity rate for Young Single Adults is 30% in North America and 20% internationally, with an overall worldwide activity rate of about 25%.The Church is in long-term decline. And that is the truth.
Gary Chambers That is good to hear. Their approach of keeping people sheltered in the Mormon bubble cannot withstand our modern information age, where the truth is so easily accessible.
Mormonism will die out over the next couple of decades maximum.
Gary Chambers I would like to think that, but I think it may be overly optimistic. The power of indoctrination has deep-seated and long-lasting effects.
I think it will last a while longer, but the internet has allowed other views and comparisons of them to proliferate, and led to harder questions and 'tests' for doctrine.
Chris sonofPear Definitely. It will be interesting to see how the Mormon church adapts to meet these challenges. But their current model only appeals to the gullible.
I think larger religions are effectively shielded from the ability to apply critical thought to their beliefs. Did these guys decide their language or did they assume it from their parents and culture. If language, or accent can be assumed through assimilation, it would be reasonable to apply it to beliefs? Do they understand psychology and neuro biology sufficiently to dismiss the likelihood their communication with their god is actually synaptic communication between brain centers - especially when the prefrontal cortex is rationalizing signals from the amygdala that is also routed through the speech center? Where is the explanation to how the human brain can send and receive complex signals from an external agent?
Wayne Mills Maybe a good place to take the conversation would have been, do you think it is possible for someone to think they are receiving a revelation from God, when they actually aren't? If so, how do you know this is not the case with you? Or, how do we distinguish a true revelation from God from a false one?
It's an admirable question and I think defensible in that: Perhaps their internal dialogue is being directed, influenced or otherwise conversant with an external agent, yet we see no evidence that this is happening from a physics, chemical and biological perspective. We do see internal cranial activity consistent with those laws though, so the axiom of isolated, terminal consciousness should lie with that until demonstrated otherwise.
If they were to ignore this however, then they must also entertain the possibility they are being directed, influenced or otherwise conversant with a deceptive agent, radio waves, wifi, micro waves, alien gamma rays or the like until demonstrated otherwise.
Once we stray from the scientific method for explanation of the natural world, we tread into imagination, speculation and unfalsifiable possibilities of the supernatural - the very mechanics of theism.
Wayne Mills awesome comment!
There are so few viewers and fans of SE who discuss neuroscience and neuropsychology, which I feel is fundamentally at the core of what’s going on in the mind of both the theist devotee and the skeptic, and vital to accelerating progress on introducing critical thinking broadly. I wish there was a bridge between the two disciplines.
In the meantime, I’m enjoying the Ted Talks that explore neurotheology and cognitive dissonance. If you happen to read my comment, please share any books or channels you would recommend to help me in my own study of neuroscience in religion.
Every phrase they used is commonly used by Mormons. They said absolutely NOTHING original or from their own mind. This is the power of indoctrination.
Isn't weird, when Mormons pray to God asking if the book of Mormon is true and Christians ask God if the bible is true and the Muslims ask Allah if the Quran is true, they all get the same answer.
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Very civil. And good, sustained questions. However, I still don’t understand how they can know their claim is true and another person’s claim is false. What would they have done if they had received a “no” answer? Have they ever received a “no” answer for anything they’ve prayed about? Do they know what a “no” would feel like?
JE Hoyes Right, they have no way of distinguishing between the person who prays and receives a Yes answer, and the person who prays and receives a No answer. I know it is too much to expect them to admit that. But they are, at the end of the day, rational creatures, and I hope I put a stone in their shoe that they will revisit later.
@Hoyes Anyone can investigate the Mormon faith (Jesus Christ) on their own and discover that it is indeed true.
provide evidence for this "truth" and why all the other "truths" are false, please.
I was a mormon for a few years. What I was told is that I pray for personal revelation and if the answer I get is different than the church party line I got the wrong answer and I need to go back and pray again. Now I am a former mormon.
There was NEVER a possibility that they would receive a NO. They have been mind-controlled since birth.
"What would be the purpose of going away to nothing?" Knowing your life is no longer based on bullshit you know is bullshit is a pretty good purpose!
You have agency! But that does not make you right and I am sorry
That guy on the right was sweating bullets towards the end.
The modern day prophet actually teaches us about how the members should be correctly referring to the name of the church and not abbreviating it.
I think it would have been better if you clarified that you were looking for a falsifiable aspect of their testing method. Their method was to pray, and get confirmation, but they always had an excuse for unwanted outcomes. I think sometimes you should just get to the point rather than let them keep coming up with excuses because the end goal is to make them understand sound reasoning and evidence requires a way to disprove their method, and then ask questions on what that would look like. That way in the end, you could have told them why you think the method is flawed, because if that same test comes with another outcome, they would still believe and assume they cannot be wrong, which showes that their method doesn’t even influence their belief. They assumed from the getgo they were believing the correct thing and only sought out confirmation bias then used a flawed method to confirm their bias. That is why they would still believe they cannot be wrong even without the flawed method, showing they are actually believing for a different reason which is faith that they had the answer before hand and faked it until they made it.
They have already dismissed this as an impossible scenario. No matter how much personal experience one puts into finding their Truth and being unable to, it will always be the person failing. I've no doubt they feel like special winners in the wanting lottery.
Beej Price I know. It is classic demonization of the outsider. I was hoping to at least help point out that they have no basis for rejecting the experience of someone who prays to know whether Mormonism is true and receives a "No" answer.
I absolutely love your demeanor and patience. I’ve noticed that in a few of your videos, you like to tackle the negative position of the claim (like on Anthony’s videos, this would be the “what would lower your confidence” questions). You could also try to ask the positive position of the claim, like “what would make you even more confident?” In this situation, it might be something like “if someone got a yes answer, but they felt a sense of dread or disgust, would that still be the Holy spirit?” What kind of experience would make them even more confident that the Book of Mormon is true?
Really really great moments ! Inspiring...
As a former Mormon who served a mission, I find these videos a bit triggering and distressing sometimes. But I'm about halfway through now and it's fine.
I find myself going back and forth between cringing at things I used to say/think and thinking, "oof, at least I wasn't THAT bad to go as far as thinking the main reason an average person isn't interested in the church is because they're all living like rock stars!"
If I'm honest with myself, even though some of the things they said in this interview weren't things I believed as a missionary, most were things I did believe at some point before.
Male missionaries like these guys are usually between 18-20 now, but when I served was when women couldn't serve until they were at least 21. So the extra years probably helped.
Unless this Elder has met every person who has received a no about Joseph Smith, he shouldn't be judging their life. I was raised in the LDS church, and I don't do drugs, drink, or live in promiscuity. I still believe in obeying God. In fact I have obeyed Jesus by being ware of false prophets. I have obeyed him by using the Scriptures to measure the teachings of men. What doesn't occur to Mormons is that the method they pedal for finding out if the book is true comes from the book you don't yet know is true. Meanwhile, the Old and New Testament give a number of other tests and measures that Joseph Smith fails when put to. The Bible never tells us to pray for a good feeling. It tells us to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21) It tells us that true prophets speak in agreement. (1 Corinthians 14:32-33) I am so tired of being accused of all kinds of sin because I've rejected Joseph Smith. It's not the reason. And it's not okay for the church, the members, and the missionaries to continue using this straw man argument against my no. God has told me no, and I do have joy and peace because he has finally answered me.
As a once believing Mormon, let me testify that I did pray and did get a no. Never got the yes. Still kept going and trying to believe, because the Church is good at virtuizing and incentivising that approach. But I got a solid No that the the DnC was not of God. On my knees. Temple worthy. Solid. No.
His story of Nephi killing Laban because the spirit told him is actually hella scary sounds like what a suicide bomber is taught before he blows him and the whole bus up
I think being open = having the ability to close your mind to evidence and be prepared to believe the things writen in one book and disregard all the other books and knowledge that we currently have available to us.
I'm sad. That there are so many people who have been brainwashed and are genuinely good people who want to have good lives, but have been mislead and don't have the internal (and possibly external) resources to question and think critically and escape these lies...It feels hopeless with so many sucked into this kind of thing.
My favorite is watching atheists who felt just like you (not saying you’re atheist) join religion often. You also do not have a monopoly on happiness and freedom as you believe you do. The world is amazing. Faith is beautiful, God lives and loves us, we can choose how to feel him, and he’s happy when we want to. ;)
You claim we are brainwashed. But do you know me? I grew up in the church. Am I 100% positive at this point in my life? Yes. Was I always? No. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true. 100% true. Absolute truth that no matter what you say, think, or do, will change its truthfulness.
At 19:00 Mish on the left says you "look at someone's life", that is, the anecdotal observations by a biased missionary of a person experiencing peace and joy but getting a "no" answer...
A. He must be sinning, or wanting to sin, by not affirming Mormonism. by wanting "worldly" things outside of the Mormon norms.
Mish on the right plays dodgeball.
{chuckle}
its unbelievable how religious books of imaginary dieties and people can lead people to pretending and lying and not feel remorse for being dishonest!
I left the Church and I don't believe in god. To this day, I still have never done drugs or drank alcohol or had sex outside of marriage. I left because I don't believe in god.
For Mormons it ALL comes down to that prayer about the Book of Mormon. If that is true then that means Joseph Smith was a “true prophet” and if that is true then that means that this is his one true church.
Unfortunately this worked backwards for me. When I found out the Book of Mormon was not what it claimed to be it led me to see the same about Joseph Smith as well as the church.
30 years of believing in the Mormon church was basically all gone within the span of a weekend. It would have been way easier to stay in the church but I just couldn’t anymore once I knew the truth.
"Typically, the way I like to start the interview, is by the wet question"
I'd have whipped out the confirmation bias. 'If a belief system is telling you to believe the belief system is true in order to believe that the belief system is true, and it's asking you to have an experience where you have start to believe the belief system is true, then you'll have an experience and assume it makes the belief true."
Travis Statham Right. Or how about, "Let's assume for a minute that Mormonism is false. Now imagine someone who was raised in the Mormon church since their earliest days. They have been steeped in Mormon doctrine and social life as far back as they can remember. All their family is Mormon. All their friends are Mormon. They have heard story after story of people who prayed to know if Mormonism is true and received an answer of yes. Then there comes a point when they are told to pray to know if Mormonism is true, and they are told by those who they most trust and love dearly that they WILL receive an answer of yes. How likely do you think it is that they will walk away from their experience thinking that God spoke to their heart and confirmed that Mormonism is true?
Bingo Raul.
Great job keeping on topic and focusing on the truth claims. I hope these boys watch themselves and reflect a little. Formons make great Athiests.
"THE TRUTH IS A PERSON NOT A VALIDATION"
I've noticed that many people seem to not be able to have values unless there is some sort of proclamation, a holy book, sacred texts, a priest or church that gives them clear notions of right or wrong. As if it was impossible to know right from wrong without some kind of higher authority telling you how... Respect for other human beings and our planet is not obvious for these people.. If you don't have some sort of spiritual guide it must mean you believe in nothing and nothing can keep you from hurting others or doing "bad" things.
Hi, Elders! I’m Dave. Nice to meet you! I’d love to sit down in a room and chat for a while…
Good job Raul! You were succinct and kept to a specific line of questioning. Many SE practitioners don't hone in and exhaust a line of enquiry, often allowing for misdirection. At the time of making this comment I haven't yet finished the video but I hope you get a response to the following question: "If I read the book of Mormon and pray over it, and don't get an answer from God does that mean it's not true"? Because if these gentlemen are right, when I pray I should get an answer from God.
This looks like 2 suspects in a police station, being interrogated. This would make a great series.
"I have all the time in the world, scum, and I guarantee you'll talk. Now WHAT IS YOUR EPISTEMOLOGY ??"
"Now see, me, I understand your point of view. But my partner here... he's not so cooperative. He's going to use your reasons to come to the opposite conclusion. Help me out here, tell me how we can tell whose conclusion is actually correct and I'll put in a good word with the judge"
What they're saying is that we lottery winner knows all lottery winners play it genuinely and all lottery losers did not play it genuinely doesn't matter how much they try. It's just positive picking.
Mr. Wayne Bagguley, Thank you for your well-made response. In fact you are correct, it only prepares the way for more questions, some of which we have accurate answers to that happen to be non-mainstream. My logic in having learned to disprove those ideas is two fold. Firstly, the foot in the door. As these are the typical atheistic arguments for there to be no need of God to explain complexity. Secondly, the full teacup. If someone believes they have all information on a given topic they invariably declare themselves a teacher and no longer a student accepting ideas for consideration. To what your question implies. Falsifiability, verifiability and predictive ability are the hallmarks of a sound theory. When offering all the research I am called a liar. When presenting falsifiable theory I am asked to prove it for the individual, even when the sources and research are easily referenced. Perhaps you would chose before I present my proofs? Either way here is the basic premise. All falsifiable. I will begin with the first story I was made to understand. David and Goliath, 1st Samual 16, all of 17, 18. A graphic of the solar system viewed from second axis North (that is Polaris) first axis being Capricorn, is precisely the same as the war scene from D&G as viewed from the same position, ( that is top dead center at about 250 feet in the air) This reveals in a provably predating text accurate description of stellar bodies both invisible to the naked eye, aspects of those visible to the naked eye not yet discovered at the time, and aspects of those same neither visible to the naked eye nor yet discovered. That is as follows: Saul is the sun Sol. David is the planet Mercury. Abinidab is Venus. Eliab is Earth. Shammah is Mars. The armies are the asteroid belt. Goliath is Jupiter. Goliaths armor are the four major moons over Jupiter. (Galilean or Jovian) . The four brothers of David who are non-participatory are Neptune, Uranus, Saturn and Pluto. .I cannot prove the name of the provider of this information as it exists in every religion. (Mercury in retrograde of astrology, Anges the cyclops in Zeus’ epic killed by the messenger. The Planet, Blue Star, and Red Star Cocinas to the Zuni Indian ... etc. ... etc. ... etc.. There is however the appearance of a vested interest in bothering to provide such information.same Revealing intent prior to action on the part of a foreigner would be tactical suicide. God has given us prophesy. Therefore God has given up tactical surprise and is either stupid or not an enemy.
How do you know it's not an unholy ghost pretending to be a holy ghost to trick you into believing something false?
Boys, I liked your argument that "the Book of Mormon is true, because it's true", and so you've won me over...where do i sign up?
It would take a pretty independent brave person to ponder these kind of questions whilst being dependant on this institution on a mission, you've given up your personal identity to represent a particular ideology for two years, it's not ok to question at that point, after they get home I believe retention statistics are below fifty percent.
Yikes. How do you find out if mormonism is true? You search with an honest heart. So what if you search with an open heart and get an answer of no? If you really have an open heart, you'll always get yes. How do you know if someone has a truly open heart? If they get an answer of yes. Ring around the rosey.
38:50 If someone said they felt they had a “no” answer that takes nothing away from the answer I received. I know what happened in my case and I know God knows. At that point it’s time to move on. I’m certainly not going to argue with the person about his/her answer. That’s between them and God.
I don't think I have ever seen an interview with one Mormon believer by himself. Is that because of lack of trust even in their 'elders' to keep to the script?
I once had a short conversation with a female Mormon missionary , I believe they are called 'sisters'. She was on a permitted 'day off' and visiting a historic country house in England, and having lunch in the small restaurant. It was interesting that she seemed to admit to a lack of conviction, and an interest in things proscribed by her church, was this because she was by herself?
When I left the LDS church, I prayed about it and got a confirmation that I should leave it. I wonder how this squares with the elders' view of the world.
I am sorry that you have been decieved.
“Why are you justified holding unfalsifiable beliefs?”
Matt Gunderson Another good one might have been, "If Mormonism were false, would you want to know?". And on that same note, "If it were false, how would you come into possession of that knowledge?". This ties into your point about falsification.
The problem with wording it this way is that there are a lot of people who think unfalsifiable means that it must be true.
it must take a lot of restraint to do these interviews.
I glanced at the title and thought It said “paying to know it’s true”. Sounds about right😂
Hale Hafa it’s a silly nonsense notion that one can be “reborn”. It’s absurd and doesn’t work. You prove that and you’ll win some prize for something. 😂😂. It’s made up bologna just as all the rest is
My favorite part by far :
"does a person need to know what is true in order to conclude that something else is not true?"
Answer: "people who leave the church stop going to church. They drink and have sex and go to parties and they're very sad"
..... Ummm.... Okay then....
You should have asked "There are two faiths, Mormonism and Southern Day Baptists, they both tell me the same thing that if I put 100% effort you will get the message of yes. How do I tell which faith is the truth?",something along those lines. When you found yourself repeating your question and they repeating their answer, you should have changed strategy. You could have asked is it possible for ex-Mormonists to convert to a more conservative faith (eg because they considered some aspects of mormonism immoral for whatever reason) and then you can refute their earlier assertion that drugs and sex leads people away from Mormonism.
Mr. Chris sonofPear, I never read or heard of it either, but in 2012 I had a waking dream that showed transmutation of the characters into those stellar bodies. A short visit to NASA shown all of it accurate. I didn’t even know other planets had moons. The larger point here is that modernly discovered details requiring a powerful telescope and in some cases a space probe are included in the story. No other way for us to confirm these planetary attributes. Are in a 6,000 year old story.
Not knowing if the truth is true???? What else could the truth be?
If someone prayed to Vishnu just to find out if he was real and they got a no answer would their experience be valid? I'm assuming they would have said yes. So someone's experience of a no answer is not always invalid. It's only invalid in regards to the mormon god.
Calling these very young men "elders" is HIGH-larryius.
I wonder if a simple white board showing a login diagram might be helpful so they can keep they question in mind might be helpful, you did an awesome job with retaining your point and coming back to the question, but maybe if they had a visual representation to stare at while they dance around they can see that they're not actually following a path to answering the question? E.g. here is a yes or no decision point, you have me the direct path to yes but you just danced around on the no side without a actually drawing a logical path to a no. Of course it's because they can't actually admit there is a no answer ...
The "hypothetical" person he describes at 23:41 fits me exactly. . . . Interesting how he needs to keep repeating his question because they answers they gives do not fit the question he has asked. They seem programmed to not seriously consider the things he's asking them to consider.
I could never be that patient. but ya...I'm going to give this round to the missionaries. not that anything they said made any sense but raul just kept asking the same question over and over in pretty much the same way allowing them to use thier doctrine to refute it. it was absent the gotcha conflicting logic type questions that Ive seen in other videos. its not easy to unhypnotise people.
You can't pray and get a no, the church isn't true, because that's the wrong answer. You pray and get their "correct" answer, or else there's something wrong with you. It can't be proven wrong, so it can't be proven right. I can't believe how triggered I feel as an exmo.
15:55 Body language?
What if you met with them in another week and you told them that you read the book and prayed about it and didn't get an answer? What would they say then? (I suspect they would just blame some random thing)
Right, good question. They have a belief system that is immune from being falsified. Even if, theoretically, they were wrong, they would never find out.
I've asked that very question, they told me that I should repeat the process until I do...
Because these boys can read hearts and minds. The hubris is pretty intense.
I had similar experience with Mormons at my casa. They’re def civil ppl to talk to but round and round we go.
Keith X Right. Kind of frustrating, but I enjoy trying to break through the layer upon layer of indoctrination and get through to their rational selves.
"Head we win; tale you lose." haha
"If people believe in the BoM they found truth and are godly; of they don't, they don't have any interest in god or truth or they are just lazy." haha
Their way of circular thinking is a product of mind control. It obviously makes no sense but they persist in repeating that the person with the no answer must be doing something wrong because they (the missionaries) know it's true. I wonder what they would say if you pointed out that Fundamentalist Mormons who practice polygamy also "know" the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith is a profit of God.
Is the Holy Ghost n the Holy Spirit the same entity or separate?
The brain can brainwash itself into believing anything if that's what it wants. So, you need to want to have a yes answer in order to get it. The thing is though, the brain wanting something, (consciously or subconsciously) and getting it doesn't mean that what it got is the truth.
So sad..... having been a missionary I can see how trapped they are... they’re literally terrified that their beliefs are false.
Mormon: "I prayed and read the book of Mormon and the Holy Spirit told me "Yes" it is true. I believe in this
100%. This was my experience and if anyone does this with an honest heart they will get the same answer. If a person would just take the challenge to pray and read the book of Mormon they would know the truth."
Also Mormon: "What's better than this? If Mormonism is a no, what is the truth? If I took the challenge with another religion and I got the answer that THAT is correct (from the same Holy Spirit I suppose) then I would believe it, but there is nothing else. This is it."
🥴
@@jbaptiste1213 Ask a Mormon.
30:23
I cringed when they said people who fall away from the church start to party, drink, etc. I stopped going to church when I was 16 and I still adhere to the Word of Wisdom and live a culturally Mormon lifestyle almost 10 years later. Members of the church, PLEASE stop perpetuating this false narrative, thanks.
These guys are so still.
If you do a rain dance, it will definitely ran every time!
(If it doesn’t rain, it means you didn’t do it right)