Is it possible to play music together over the Internet?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ย. 2024
- Here's a seemingly simple question: Can musicians in quarantine play music together over an Internet connection? We've migrated birthday parties, happy hours and church services to video calls these days, so couldn't we do the same with band practice? Across ubiquitous video conferencing tools like Zoom, FaceTime and Skype, it takes time for audio data to travel from person to person. That small delay, called latency, is mostly tolerable in conversation - save for a few overlapping stutters - but when it comes to playing music online with any kind of rhythmic integrity, latency quickly becomes a total dealbreaker.
This video follows pianist and composer Dan Tepfer down the rabbit hole. Tepfer often occupies the intersection of music and innovative technology (just check out his Tiny Desk concert), and by proxy has served his fellow musicians as a tech support line of sorts. A public inquiry on Twitter led him to jazz trombonist Michael Dessen, also a researcher at the University of California Irvine, who has centered his work around networked performances for over a decade. The solution: an open-source software called JackTrip, developed by Stanford University researchers Chris Chafe and Juan-Pablo Cáceres over a decade ago, that can transfer high quality audio data across the Internet at low enough latencies, within a geographic radius, to mimic someone playing music roughly 30 feet away; that's the threshold at which most musicians can still play together in sync. It takes a bit of hardware and a strong Internet connection, but the setup has enabled near instantaneous latencies for musicians who want to improvise together online.
Tepfer has spent some of the last few months building a community of musicians using JackTrip at home, so they can practice together, work on new music, and even perform live-streamed concerts to fans as a revenue source while music venues remain closed in the pandemic. And while it's not nearly the same as playing in the same physical space, it's a close second in the era of social distancing.
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I had a jam with random dudes in a discord server a dude played his drums, a guy played rhythm on his acoustic guitar, i played some lead and a dude sang the blues like a champ we had a ping in between 80 - 120 but that night of my life i will never forget we had so much fun
❤️
That's crazy, every time I do that it never works out
Substances...
I frequently do these online jam sessions and the people I meet there are just so great and just down to completely groove with you. Honestly, the most fun I have had in a good while!
@@sexypianonotes6212 Where do you do them?
I jam with my downstairs neighbors all the time. I play guitar and they beat on the ceiling.
Same. 😂
Ha ha ha! They could come up and occasionally bang the door too!
Same here...
LOLOL!!!!! I have to resist my music practice being a performance for neighbours. Eg..playing Italian music deliberately so my Italian neighbours can hear.
@@Fmajor7 y
Yep, tears. I miss it so much.
What about *INCREASING* the latency, so it's exactly 4 beats late on both ends? It's jazz after all...
Watch out, fbi is coming
Reaper ninjam does that
Dang. I mean one still can't improvise and whatnot but one can play in sync. 🤔
That makes no sense whatsoever!
@@daniellumertz7508 Novel Intervallic Network Jamming Architecture for Music or NINJAM is exactly what I came here to say. I've been actively jamming with musicians all around the world for over 10 years on this wonderful platform. It's great for funk, jazz, rock, metal, or whatever kinda thing floats your particular boat. I have no affiliation with it but I just love it and think it's a great way for musicians to keep their chops up.
www.cockos.com/ninjam/
It comes for free with REAPER or you can use a client like JamTaba2 to get up and running quickly
jamtaba-music-web-site.appspot.com/
as a solo producer, i totally forgot about this need to meet up with other musicians. man, my heart swelled when i saw the smile on their faces, getting to play with other musicians again. live concerts definitely won't replace it, but we're seeing a big change happening because of the quarantine. very exciting :)
My brother played drums over video at a club in Australia while he was in Arkansas years ago. He was on a screen behind the band. He knew the songs so when they were ready he'd just start playing and the band joined in on "their time".
He was playing without hearing what they were doing. They tried it first listening to each other but it was too messed up with the lag.
There is another way to deal with this problem. I am a student composer from Hong Kong, and I have an alumni of my school once written a piece and would be collaborating with an ensemble in Germany. The Hong Kong and Germany ensemble would play together, so there were two concerts a day time and a night time concert in both places. The way the composer deal with the latency is she take the latency into part of her creative process, that means the piece is written for two ensembles to play together with a 500 milliseconds latency. This could be a creative solution.
its a neat trick but not really for the performers to interact, it is prewritten and very specific, we are looking for minimal latency jam software
Also the option to sync the latency to a measure of beats : reaper ninjam does that
Yeah ninjam is amazing. I was disappointed to see it’s absence from this video.
ninjam is a blast, was waaaaaayyy ahead of it's time, like many of that dev's programs (winamp, peer-to-peer file sharing, reaper)...
What a pleasure to get a no-hyped discussion of an interesting topic! And thanks, too, for not soliciting comments with a lame question at the end!!!
I play on Jamkazam every night! Usually with random people and it's great fun! And then on weekends I play with a group of professional musicians that I've met through the jamkazam community. It's absolutely brilliant. We play a lot of 80s music and we can play perfectly fine and all in sync with very little latency. I'll probably meet these guys one day and play a real gig! 😁😁
Man seeing footage from all those live concerts is making me tear up
💛💟💌💗
I learned so much in this video. It blows my mind the love and work that has been poured onto this area of research. I look at it this way: this technology breaks physical barriers. So you can be at home, or sick, or traveling somewhere, but at the drop of a hat, with a good connection, you can play with people. Live music is irreplaceable. It's the holy grail, and with all of the technology we have available, it is more and more clear how irreplaceable it actually is. That doesn't mean that virtual concerts or virtual jams can't expand the experience and boundaries of music in other, unique ways. TL;DR This technology can only enhance our experience of music, although it cannot replace live. The effects of the pandemic on advancing human creativity astounds me every day.
Thank you Christian, I really appreciate that '30ms-pocket of time', that you presented here, its so insightful. To me, I must tell you, it is a breakthrough. Your presentation worked inside me subconsciously for many hours since I heard this presentation of yours and then suddenly, today, I'm now beginning to understand how to execute this "The Black Art of 'disappearing' the Metronome"..... Or splitting a TICK and existing right between 'TI' and 'CK', where the musician resides. I don't know how else to explain this to you, but I'm quite sure you would understand what I mean. This simple 30ms-pocket thingy is something that has baffled me for years. I'm saying forget internet latency, I'm so desperately talking about the latency between my fingers and my ear! You're the Angel that pulled out a thorn that plagued me for centuries and now let there be relief... Once again, I thank you for your effort hosting this presentation. And I also very grateful for your music you've been transmitting all over, for all these years. Its such delightful, wonderful stuff. I wish you all the very best. Don't fret, my dear brother, these lockdowns and isolations won't ever get in your way and I am the proof.
Just like any recording session synched to midi click, all players can simultaneously record. Playing to a score with all the virtual tracks you listen to the click and midi not the other musicians recording. your soul still senses art being captured so internally you are doing the same thing. With the option of subsequent takes the virtual is replaced by the actual and the piece evolves into life like music.
I’ve had so much fun improvising with people over zoom for a couple of performances.
Thankfully, we avoided rhythm as much as possible, and thankfully this isn’t unusual as were an experimental free improvisation ensemble. We did notice the delay, but we’ve started how to learn how to use it as part of our playing.
I dread to think how classical musicians are handling it.
I started learning Linux in 1999. I noticed Jack and eventually I used it for other reasons than demoed in this video. Between then and now I've always wondered how I could jam with my friends over the internet without latency. God damn... Jack has been staring me in the face for years. I've even used it before. Why didn't anyone tell me!!!!!! :)
Isnt Jacob Collier doing jam sessions over Instagram live and staying in time by anticipating the latency n compensating for it... It's actually in insane!
oh yeah its crazy.
Jacob Collier is just on another level, even compared to other professionals.
@_@ not again
There are various applications out there which claim to make remote jamming/playing together possible. However, as this video points out and I have to keep telling people time and again; there is no way round the physical hard limit of the speed of electrons - it is not possible to solve this. However, these are the things that can reduce your latency - adding on top the background physical latency. I have had tried many solutions, but had some success with Jamulus.
1/ Your remote band members should be geographically as close as possible to each other
2/ Fast CPU
3/ As much bandwidth as you can throw at it! Obviously turn off every other bandwidth consuming app or process too.
4/ good quality low latency audio interface - set with the lowest buffer size possible before clipping
5/ Avoid wi-fi and connect directly to the router with an Ethernet cable
Pedantic note: It's not the speed of electrons that matters; it's the speed of electric field waves. Electrons travel at the speed of molasses, while field waves travel through them at almost the speed of light.
I use AISO4all to convert soundfonts to midi in the Sibelius composer. This reminds me of when MP3's came out in 1996 and replaced the midi ringtones of Blink 182 I had on mIRC. I am glad to see it again making 500 mile jam sessions possible over the internet in 2020.
Wow! What a KICK ASS way to keep it COOKIN'!! Thank you all for sharing this amazing creation!!! ^..^
:-)
This made me remember how much I miss playing with others
I used to play a pneumatic organ for which the console was a 50 yards from the registers. The delay between pushing a key and hearing the pipes was around half a second. I got used to anticipate the delay and play ahead when accompanying a choir.
The challenge with TCP is that the lag is not constant and to make things worse, apps like zoom tend to stich packets back with some dubious catch-up speed increases that messes up any tempo you may have.
That's why UDP is here to fix all that.
So, yes playing with someone in Hawaii is technically possible with a little practice...
SAGORA it's a free virtual rehearsing room developed by the Quilmes University in Argentina. Look for it, too!!
Jamblaster by JamKazam already exists, it also has some cool backing track options for isolating each instrument but basically 4 separate members of a band each divided by 1000km of distance can in fact play together
Also, not ideal for jazz but you could potentially use metronome watches by soundbrenner but synched over a computer rather than the same device connecting to 5 nearby
Surely if you all had a vibrating metronome watch it would allow you to somewhat work with each other but yeah JamBlaster exists basically so long as you’re within 1000km
This is great! I’m going to try this when I resume remote teaching in the fall. Trying to do drum duets with my students on zoom is killing me w few latency!
I am confused about comparing the case in which musicians perform 30ft apart and Hawaii NY. Why would we take the one-way time delay for the first case (~30ms) and the round-trip time delay for the latter (26ms*2 = 52ms)?
Of course, even if we can build a system that requires no time to interpret information, ie latency is entirely due to time for light to travel, there is still a difference in the two cases. Musicians playing 30ft apart see visual cues practically instantaneously (0.00003ms), whereas Hawaii NY would have the same 26ms delay. I’m curious to hear anyone who has tried out these low latency applications share how the difference in visual time delay feels.
Indeed there is no need to consider the round-trip time. But 26ms is still close to the limit, and is the theoretical best. In practice, you need to consider the latency of you sound card (AD converter) which is already a few milliseconds, plus the network latency. In fact, just sending the signal straight through fiber optics will take more than 26ms, because the speed of light is significantly slower in fiber optics than in a vacuum.
As for visual cues, they can be used for things like moving to a different section, ending a solo, or letting your bandmates know that they messed up :D these things actually don't need to be processed instantly. The main problem here is to play on time, and you don't rely on visual cues for that.
Video broadcast syncs to audio, so the video will skip ahead if delay is too big. You will see "skips".
This is very helpful, Simon and Marc. Thank you!
Interesting article:
"Faultlines Festival to Host Multi-site, Networked Concert" (News Archive 2009)
There’s something else you can do: compensate by adding a delay that makes you in sync up to one beat or one bar. It’s not a perfect solution and doesnt work with all kinds of music, it forces you to play in a certain way, but at least you can play something despite the lag
As fellow Seattleite jazz organist Joe Doria posted already JamKazam works well especially if you're within 100 miles and have your equipment setup correctly. I am running it with Windows 10 using a Zoom R24 8 channel mixer using ASIO4ALL with all 8 channels available (using two for keyboard, two for Android phone for Drum Genius app, one channel for chat for voice chat mic). I did one session with a drummer in Oakland one night however who I had less than 25ms latency with, and I'm in Seattle. I do have a 100mb fiber connection and I assume he had the same. We have found playing that if you are using JamKazam for audio and Zoom for video(with audio disabled) it works great!I was going to try JackTrip but I have heard of an analog system which has been around for over a decade and uses analog old school phone line. It's used by all the major corporations, entertainment companies and movie studios for live events. The company is called Onstream Media and I have had one conversation with their VP of Marketing and will be having another this next week. I heard from them from Bassist Dan Dean here in Seattle who did a live performance about 12 years ago for AES (Audio Engineering Society) which was in NYC. Dan was in Seattle, the pianist in LA, guitarist in Kentucky, and the drummer out in field on the Scottish moor. NO LATENCY. I will do a follow up post this week. It's analog so no packets, no ip addresses, etc. Internet is only for broadcasting at the end. Hope to have more to tell you. I am considering getting a POTS (plain old telephone service) line now.
Most useable and musically interesting option I found is Endlesss app for iPhone and iPad (Also coming to Mac/pc). It is not live but is loop based, kind of retroactive looper that is constantly recording and you hit the button after you played/sung something. Format of public or private jam sessions and pretty instantaneously what you just looped appears in jam session for others around the world who can add/take away/remix layers. It’s not exactly like being in the room but it is musically fulfilling and instant way to collaborate
Endlesss do have a potentially dreadful aspect (depending on your objectives) in that what you put up is available for everyone to use according to their agreement. Your right to what you create is if course not given up completely, but unless this "everyone can cooperate" is an attractive aspect of the service, I find it useless for working within a group making music as in the rehearsal space or studio. I'm not suggesting this must be bad, but it's good to know what it means before signing up. I'm sure some will find this cool and cooperation is a good thing.
M Stromkraft yeah it can be used solo for music making or in a pre formed group without issue, permission is needed if you build on something others have contributed to. Endlesss can be especially fun for jamming as a leisure activity rather than with the goal of recording an album. Though that can and has been done with Endlesss too.
Don't know why he uses the round trip speed of light from Hawaii to NYC. The 30 ms were based on the one-way sound travel, 9m apart (30 feet). So counting like this, the equivalent speed of light from Hawaii to NYC would be 26 ms (just one-way)... Which would be doable if you had an optic cable running directly from Hawaii to NYC. With all the extra cabling distance the real network does, it would add to this distance and bring it way over the limit 30 ms unfortunately. BUT, with the upcoming SpaceX Starlink network (which will make a direct satellite connection), I think it would just barely work. You have to add 1100 km (because of the satellites being 550 km over see level. 2x 550=1100). So the real distance would be 9100 km (maybe 9500, considering there will not always be a satellite directly over your head. Maybe a little less than 9100 actually if you're lucky and the satellites are using a diagonal). That would take light just 30 ms to travel, which is exactly the limit for musicians to jam together on a scene. So that should work, Hawaii-NYC should be able to jam together! =)
I'm a long-time Linux audio geek, so I've been using the open source Jack software for a while. I used JackTrip when lockdown first started to jam with my brother in Austin. Unfortunately I don't know many Linux tech-savvy jazz musician friends, so that has limited who I can play with. Anyone who knows how to setup the open-source Jack sound system and knows how to operate a command line and know how to share their ip address, hit me up if you want to jam with JackTrip.
Man, I applaud you for having that kind of knowledge. I’m watching this video and thinking “okay so maybe people will figure it out soon.” Then I read your comment which is literally asking someone to jam, I really wish I had the capability! My path is a totally different one, but yours is cool as shit.
Very interested in learning how to set this up to facilitate some friends' playing! My music skills aren't too great personally, but I'd like to learn how to get this working!
@@invisiblelemur I am also interested in learning to set this up and am not too skilled at music but enjoy practicing with a few people.
Yet a other time Linux saves the world😂
P.S. I would like to try, but latency might just be too big even with nice software
Christian McBride is such an incredible bass player! Saw him with Chick Corea in Ann Arbor last year.
Thank you for talking about Latency! Many people seem to miss things like this in an age where people have stopped caring about it. I like to do music things on my phone, but wireless earbuds have too much latency for me to do anything!
Change the Bluetooth audio profile. Bluetooth latency can be lower than wired under the right conditions.
It's literally going at the speed of light (while electricity through wires isn't)
The problem is usually bandwidth and interference, so those need to be minimised.
@@WilcoVerhoef bluetooth doesn't work based on light. It communicates via radio waves, basically the same 2.4ghz spectrum as wifi, but it is possible to play with profiles for lower latency.
@@kswiftful Actually, radio waves *are* light, just not at a wavelength that is visible to us.
@@kswiftful Radio waves are a form of light, so they travel at the same speed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation
Great job presenting! See, it's always the bass players... and if you get one of the best in the world, then you're in!
THANK YOU THANK YOU!! I'm hugely missing other musicians, I'm going try this right away!
If you don't want to mess with setting up software on each end, MusicalOverture.com has a feature called the Gig Room that is very similar in performance, plus an integrated tuner and metronome, and it works on ANY device with a modern web browser! It will also archive your sessions for you , and you can upload anything else you want, because it's also a worldwide musicians' directory, to help musicians find teachers, students, colleagues, collaborators, and performance opportunities of all kinds, from community groups to paid performances. The Gig Room isn't free (though there is a free trial), but the rest of the site is...
Tori Kelly and Jacob Collier had a live session on Insta and he basically said he had to be stubborn to not play with her, but to keep his own time. Pretty interesting to hear, and sometimes the echoed latency harmonizes with what's going on. Y'all should check that out if it tickles ya.
Yeah, it seems like if you had a unidirectional sort of thing, with one person leading and the other following, and have the lead mute the follower, it would be pretty straightforward to be in sync. It would lack the back and forth of playing in person, but at least you wouldn't have to deal with the latency anymore.
People- JamKazam - weve been using it since quarantine started - you can get up to 8 musicians on at once, although less is better.
I tried a Zoom rehearsal on Sunday. A BIG No-Go, bruh.
There you have practical use for quantum entanglement. As long as you can flip 16qbits 44100 times per second you're good to go. NO LAG (latency). Now cue the twilight zone theme.
And how could that be done? You must understand that this type of idea is unprecedented, so if you could try and think about it some more haha!
This is impossible. There's no information going between entangled particles. You cannot force a certain orientation, just observe (after which you immediately know something about the other - untouched - particle)
Wilco Verhoef are you working with quantum computers? I would be interested to hear someone with expertise talk about the impossibilities.
@@graxjpg no I don't know much more beyond this. I've studied physics for a year after which I switched studies.
Veritasium and Fermilab have also some videos about quantum mechanics / computers. And I think IBM even lets anyone play with a quantum computer over the internet, there are probably some experts talking about that on TH-cam as well.
Wilco Verhoef well, In all my paying attention since quantum computing began being common to talk about, Ive never heard anyone make any statements regarding impossibilities of such a system. Maybe current limitations, but impossibilities seem to be futile to conceptualize.
1:30 small shoutout to Dan Tepfer rocking the Grado headphones. Check em out for some Brooklyn handmade audio gear.
where I live I get about 5 - 10 second delay in the same city :(
SUCH a good explanation!! Thank you so much for this informative video. And your amazing voice 🙂❤
I am graduated in classical guitar, but now I am studing jazz, and it is frustrating to just play with play alongs and don´t have the interaction. IOf course I have to wait, and meanwhile, to give my best in studies until this is over. Thanks for the video!!
More! . . . YOU ~ ROCK ! !
this 30' thing also explains why the big pop shows on the HUGE stages w/ everyone running around sound out of synch, unless it's a lip sync. In rock my best example is the rolling stones on a huge stage vs on a small stage.
You can do New York to Hawaii over UDP. A round trip isn’t necessary for you to begin your response, right...
Have you guys ever tried ninjam? I don't think it's available any more but I used to jam on it a lot. It's an open software project that allows people to play music together over the internet. It works by purposely delaying each persons audio by one measure. Everyone is hearing each other a measure late but it doesn't mater. You are still in sync just a bit delayed. After a bit you get used to it. Check out www.cockos.com/ninjam/.
Oh! It's from the team behind Reaper! Interesting. So it's working for you?
Yeah been using that for the last 5 months now, it's a pretty smart way to solve the delay issue.
Just to make it more clear not one measure but like a round of measures that you want. so most of the time you'll find people using 16-24-32-64. but 1 measure would be possible, just not that usefull :)
glad to see someone else already calling ninjam out. i'm
having loads of fun with it!
@@JimFeeley Yes, I have jammed on ninjam for years. I use Reapers builtin ninjam interface.
Jorge is the man!
Cosign
Thank you. I’m going to have to try out these new programs. Zoom is really tough with the constant clipping and muting...
A very expensive alternative, but the distance limit given by the speed of light can be overcome using quantum teleportation. Research has been done where entangled particles that have been moved apart over a long distance can transmit musical data - when the input at one end defines the state of a given particle, the entangled particle is instantaneously defined, regardless of separation distance. Check out Alexis Kirke's paper from April 2020 in the Journal of New Music Research if you want to know more!
It's still physically impossible to send information this way. Nothing like this could ever exist without our current model of the universe being nonsense.
he needs that quantum computer to invert bits he not pulls from a prng for no reason and only his laughable quantum machine is fast enough for this bullshit? yeah, sure ...
Amazing video! Thanks!
It actually is possible if you amplify the raw audio signal to crazy voltages, send it over massive antennas as a modulated analog signal, then on the other end demodulate the signal using a receiver, and have the other person do the same. If you could somehow convince the FCC to let you use other frequencies that aren’t 2.4 or 5 gHz, and create a modulation signal that isn’t being used by radio stations (keep in mind both people have to be on different frequencies), then you could play together in real time without having to be next to each other. You couldn’t do this kind of thing over the Internet.
Thanks for the excellent graphic explanation of something I've been trying to explain - I've been working with JamKazam and tried Jamulus, and my results are similar. However I have one big complaint. This demo has simultaneous video and audio that is synced. That is unrealistic in most environments, and I don't see an indicate that JackTrip even supports video. Do we have some false advertising going on here?
Spyro Gyra recently released a remote performance on TH-cam.
It looks and sounds fantastic.
Does anyone know what platforms were used for the audio and video?
I
those are really common - but they are synced in time after the fact. Musicians generally play to a click track. Latency issues are entirely removed.
I loved this video, it's so amazing. I would like to spread this for non-english speakers also.
All these comments, and not one pointing out that 30 feet of sound travel is only 6 msecs of latency, not 30 msecs? At least someone noted that many internet delays come from switches and routers en route rather than only from the speed of light. However, I see no mention of jitter (variance in latency), which is a reason why buffering is usually imposed at a receiver to hide jitter, but at the expense of increasing effective latency by the size of the maximum jitter to be hidden/tolerated. Anyway, other comments lead me to conclude that for a significant amount of unison play, far more than 30 feet-equivalent of sound delay must be tolerable, as 6 msecs of one-way latency+jitter is hard to achieve, even in the same neighborhood let alone across oceans. A nearly-perfectly synchronized "virtual baton", however, is not at all hard to achieve.
Thank you so much for this!!!!
There's another research project, soundjack.eu that principally supports Windows/macOS/Linux, and I've achieved about 30ms latency with it (with one playing partner, in the same city). But, it's a bit difficult to set up, and you definitely need a) a wired network connection and b) a proper soundcard/interface, otherwise all bets are off. So it's been more of a "proof of concept" situation for me, not an actually usable medium, sadly.
I love soundjack, and you're right. Just wanted to say nothing is for free - and nothing gives you play-together latency cheaper than ethernet cable and USB soundcard. Some (forum.digital-stage.org/t/lips-live-interactive-pmse/136 or ) use a dedicated glass fiber and hardware for >10k - for a gain of only a few ms!
WIth TotalVU, we solve this by each musician playing to a track and we keep the track in sync for everyone. The track can be the tune, or just a click.
Oh and we do have a Watchparty so the players can see each other too
“Its hopeless...because he was a bassist”
Marvin lol
Hey that is a great shout ! Great to hear Christian and see Dan again (we played together in Edinburgh in a previous life : )...Playtime has been improvising on line but with latency...as we didn't know about Jacktrip...and we embraced the lag...tried to use it creatively...of course there is only so far you can go without sync but we had a lot of fun. I've downloaded Jack & everything else...is there any specifics that would need to be done to use it over Zoom for example ? Thanks for the video and the music.
Love this bro
if you're in the same area it might be fine, and that area for us is the island I live in (Country - Maldives, Island - Malé). and basically here you're able to stream your desktop at really low latency and send files via ftp or a torrent client by seeding IF you're using Dhiraagu, one of the 3 internet service providers. due to whatever type of structure they use, anyone who uses fiber dhiraagu internet can send files from one person to another at unthrottled speeds (we have fair usage allowances) and all of that because it's all basically a LAN connection and the desktop streaming is also really low latency, under 30ms if I recall correctly
edit: this is an exploit we use to download stuff because the ungodly internet prices and the amount of usage we get along with it is unreasonable and utter bullshit
This is amazing! Now, how do I get to do this ??? Were do I get this tool?
Here's where I started learning about it: th-cam.com/video/3HP_Z6mg7QU/w-d-xo.html
Just download Reaper (free). It's a built in plugin.
@@PedalScience Reaper is great but no, Jacktrip is not a built in plugin. It's not a plugin at all actually.
@@PedalScience reaper has Ninjam which is nice too
Has anyone used JamKazam
Ninjam works differently and has no distance limitations, and has public rooms that people can just join and start jamming.
We have a band in Brazil, called Virtual Jam Band.
I need This asap, otherwise im gonna get Crazy here without playing with some lads.
thank you so MUCH !!
Try Jamulus! Open source and free. Works pretty well, can achieve Latency as low as 50 ms.
This has also hit the theatrical comedy musical improvisers in the same way. I'm curious about more technological developments.
I gotta check this out because other options, including Discord and Mumble, haven't worked out (certainly not their fault). I set up a dedicated Mumble server and broadcast a click track for my group but could not overcome the accumulated latency. 15 ms for my audio interface (outbound) + 30 ms round trip over internet + 3 ms turnaround in Mumble + 15 ms inbound audio interface = 63 ms. Our group could not stay in sync for more than a couple measures. :-(
Thank you for this!
The only way that I can think of would be a technological mess.
The original Music is recorded.
All band players at one sight have separate mikes. That would be broadcast as a jam track. That would be put on a digital track and
sound engineer would have exect microseconds. Broad cast digitally.to all musicians who are now listening to pre-recorded jam track. They are all playing to the one time. There will be delay in all
These places also. But again we record the complete ensemble at locations including individual recordings. This is all sent digitally back to original sound/ digital music techs. They would have a smart program with an algorithm that would put it all together. It would be almost impossible to do this without
dedicated equipment. That would be expensive. Time consuming too.
Jorge Roeder on Bass! YES!!!!
Thank you for the info, it would have been nice to show us a bit how Jack Trip (sic) works? Do you need special hardware, is it audio and video or audio only? how fast does your internet connection need to be..is it free?
Why is the time of the round trip being calculated? One person can be transmitting their audio, simultaneously with the other person transmitting their audio. You don't need to wait for the signal to go there and back.
But how would they know the same instant at which to play, so their sound arrives together? Musicians sync by listening to each other. So if player A plays in time with what he hears from player B, then by the time his playing reaches player B, it is later by twice the latency than what player B played. If B then tries to keep in time with A, he will play later, and the effect is that everyone slows down. When a group plays on Jamulus, someone (usually the drummer) needs to agree to carry on regardless, and everyone else keeps time with him. It can work very well once you are used to it.
Also, I think Live is Not as important for the audience as it is for the musicians. Because we as audience 95% of us can’t see the musicians anyway. So we just watch at the big screen next to the stage. You can just as well sit at home.
I disagree. I've been doing livestreamed duo concerts and it's clear that the authenticity of the real-time interaction I'm having with my duo partner really speaks to the audience. People can feel when things are really happening in real time. It's real. A recording is a very different thing. One is alive, the other is a remembrance of something that was once alive.
Wow! Thank you
It's a bit complex but if you wanted to play a live gig on the internet, with each musician spread across the map, you would need delay compensation and you'd have to align that compensation based on the latency differences between each individual, only then would you be able to create any type of alignment between the players, unless of course, they all live in the same city.
At 30ms ping you wouldnt need much compensation to make that happen
500 miles radius is approximately distance from my city to most distant borders of my country, and Ukraine is relatively big European country(most are smaller). That means I could play with anyone in my country, not only the city, same for musicians in almost all Europe. I'll take it!
Jacob Collier has a psychological fix for the delay xD
Is there a full video of Dan and Jorge playing together in that little clip? I really like Dan Tepfer's jazz music but can't seem to find it anywhere.
The Dante platform over IP lines is the closest but that also has limitations over distance..
And what about the relationship between the audio and video latencies. For a jazz musician it´s crucial to follow the movements, intentions and cues from the partners. Is the latency over zoom much bigger than the audio through jacktrip? Does it disturb?
Technically if musicians can play 30 ft apart, at 30ms latency, that would be 60ms latency round trip. So hypothetically it would be possible for the person in New York to play with the person in Hawaii, if we had the technology. Anywho, carry on.
Muh 5g
but it doesn't need to go round trip, each signal only needs to travel one way so by your calculations if it could travel at the speed of light it would be 26 milliseconds one way. so you could do it.
yes, artsmesh uses jacktrip.
So my band is losing our Keyboardist / Lead singer. And its a huge hit. He is amazing. I have been searching for a solution He is moving to Florida. Is it possible to have a gig in a live setting and have him jam vith us virutally IN the live sound?
Your house is awesome.
If you're going from Hawaii to New York and back, it's even worse than the map distance, because you are either going via a satellite (which adds considerable distance up and then down) or over fiber-optic and/or copper cable, both of which transmit signals considerably more slowly than the speed of light in a vacuum.
Okay, there's your incentive: You jazz musicians need to invent wormhole technology . . . .
But the worst error is still setting glass fiber transversal time == latency! Even the only 8000miles direct dedicated fiber connection in australia has many (silicon) amplifiers that cost time. If you are on a shared medium with switches, add a substantial budget - my ISP gives me factor 4 of fiber latency at 1kkilometers :-(
Great video, very interesting
though there is a way, add a call which only plays a metronome sound. Now everyone play in sync to that. Done
Dude I hope you see this.. you are a genius!
It can be done. It's just that one person has to play ahead of the beat, and the other person has to play behind.
Thats how orchestras work for centuries, and why they have conductors.
How about a pianist in USA e the singer in Portugal? Is that possible?
This is great, I am wondering if Christian has been using this tech during covid? Also there is a new stand alone jack trip box you can buy on amazon, has anyone used this? A follow up video from these guys would be great now that we're a year into covid.
What a great achievement to play in sync with a pair of Macintosh 512k in 2020
Software link?
How does this compare with the Elk Live system? Obviously much cheaper.