Keith Rucker did a video on this that is helpful for calibrating multiple levels. After calibrating the master level, slowly rotate it on the surface plate until a clock position is found to be level. (There will be one orientation that is level even if the surface plate is not level). Lay the straight edge along side and clamp it down. All other levels positioned there can be calibrated directly to zero the first try.
I think it is this th-cam.com/video/z94tK53vYmU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=KeithRucker-VintageMachinery.org but he uses a master reference level which he knows is perfectly calibrated to check the one he has scraped.
Kind of like how you can make a mill tramming tool on a mill that's not trammed, and then use that same tool you just made to tram the mill properly and accurately.
I think another fun bit is that, if you want to, you can find a level line on any flat plane that's reasonable close. If you think about rotating the level on a slightly tilted surface, imagine it's pointing uphill at "this" end, and then you keep rotating a bit and now it's pointing downhill. Well, somewhere in between... it was in transition, neither uphill nor downhill -- it was perfectly level. You can find that line with a level level, of course, but you can find it with an uncalibrated level by looking for the same bubble displacement at the other end after you rotate.
I had my boss show me how to check a level when I first started out. I have still use that to this day. I see a level and I then know how good that level is.
@@The_Gun_Room Check our Mr. Pete 222 channel for his recent demonstration of a very simple and easy to use tramming device. It uses a single dial indicator that swings on an arm around the vise. The heavy vise does not need to be removed.
I think it’s great that you can use your dad’s tools. It must bring back memories. My dad was a mechanic and I still use his tools. I still think about him every time I pick one up. He’s been gone since 1975.
I really appreciate your comments on temp and movement around the bench. Precision and accuracy are different but related. So many factors contributing to proper calibration.
These precision levels are extremely powerful tools to have in a machine shop that's expected to put out precision parts. I'm always blown away when I make a service call to a shop and they say they don't have one. Every shop should have several, and they should be checked for calibration every time they are used.
Adam, as usual you do a spectacular job at mentoring/teaching your trade. When a person can do such a good job mentoring that means they know what they are doing to a level of a master in your case. AWESOME thanks again for the great videos.
To get the black divisions back on that level get a black sharpie pen and paint the glass vial then when it dries rub the vial with a cloth to rub off the black sharpie and it will leave the ink in the divisional grooves
Years ago I was given a 6 inch Lufkin. i Didn't know it was a precision level because i was a mechanic at the time. Long story short, all my tools were stolen and I never got a chance to use or find out what how precise a level could be since all I never got to use it other than a couple times, and I don't know if it was calibrated and I only used it in 1 direction. This was very informative. I thank you for the knowledge you have added to me.
I remember when I worked for Maintenance Service Corporation we had a large pink granite stone that was polished and calibrated on a regular basis. It was used to calibrate our straight edges. Some of the grinding machines we restored had to hold 0.000050 tolerance.
Note that on any plane surface (like a good surface plate) which is stable, there will be a line across it that is perfectly level. You just have to rotate your reference marker (the long scale in this case) until you find that position. Rotate the reference until the level reads the same when swapped end for end. Then you can adjust the level until it reads "center". I think Tom Lipton did a good cover of this effect a while back.
well that doesn't help people w/o plate and you don't need to waste time on finding it. The whole point of the level is that it's one of the few self calibrating tools.
Yeah, the point isn't to find a level line on the plate - it's to calibrate the level itself, which you do not need a level line to accomplish - the level itself just has to read the same when flipped end for end, then the level is calibrated.
I have the Starrett 199 and the 18 inch Machinist levels. I paid $400 for the 199 and $200 for the 18" machinist. I have several other Starrett levels. I do not have a use for these levels, but they make me feel good.
@@isbcornbinder Some people like to collect tools, other like to complain on YT. $600 seems a bit expensive to me for unused tools, however most of us here probably get your point.
You're a dying breed my friend, and your skills are beyond admirable. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with this community as it serves a couple of purposes. Most importantly I believe it makes those of us who lack such skills TRULY appreciate the attention to detail that goes in to your craft of machine work in a country that ONCE APPRECIATED your craft, and did not take it for granted. MANY still appreciate it, however, MANY have NO CLUE of the work involved in "making stuff"... Bravo....
Actually, the way you are supposed to remove these levels from the box and place it, is with your forefingers under the edges of the Bakelite, where the casting is, on the ends of the top. So yes, you are touching the metal under both sides. But, when you handle it, the touch is just with your fingertips, and for a short time. The mass of the level is enough that it doesn’t get effected by this, and the heating, if any, is even in both ends. The level wasn’t really made to just grip it by the Bakelite. They didn’t build in grip areas on just the Bakelite, you really must touch the casting. But just lift by these ends and you’re fine. I’ve been doing this for many years, and I haven’t found it to have any effect on the readings. If you try to lift it by the edges of the Bakelite, you have to grip hard so it won’t slip out of your hand, and will likely touch the side of the casting anyway. Slipping your fingers under the ends lifts it easily out of the Bo’s. Try it if you haven’t. You’ll like it.
Used one for setting a turbine generator at a processing plant in northern BC we had to use it in the morning only because by noon the drastic temperature changes would change the calibration, it is crazy how accurate they are and how such a little thing like temperature can affect them
Steel changes at .00000065 per degree F per foot. Carpenter apprenticeship told us how to correct our steel layout tapes. Only made differences in excess of 400’. After the test we were told we would never use it again. Surveying Montana, the Dakotas, and Wyoming for sure they had to correct their measuring chains for temperature.
As long as it’s the same reading down the bed it doesn’t matter if the level is calibrated. Only time it matters if the level is way off and you want to make sure your coolant drains. I rarely calibrate mine and usually pitch them towards the sump and check twist.
Adam has posted two videos to this channel showing how he and Lance made that granite surface plate accurate to the Grade AA specification based on the American Society of Mechanical Engineers B89.3.7 standard. The Grade AA plates are the highest accuracy plates, and they are often found in calibration laboratories. Adam has a plate that is flat to 1,000,000 of an inch in every direction. This video th-cam.com/video/-CM3VWKXasY/w-d-xo.html shows how this was done. And this video th-cam.com/video/VrodNx759oo/w-d-xo.html shows more of the process.
What seems to be missing in this discussion is that you don't actually have to calibrate these levels before you 'level' your lathe. You simply maintain the same orientation as you move the level from one end of the lathe to the other. When the bubble is centered* in the vial at each end of the lathe bed then each end is in the same plane and there is no twist. You are not actually trying to 'level' the lathe, only remove any twist from the bed. * Note: The bubble doesn't have to be perfectly centered either, as long as it is reasonably close to centre and in the exact same spot at each end of the bed. Ken
We have 3 of the Starrett 199's in my shop I always put one with the ways one across the ways and one at a 45 for cross reference. Those things are so sensitive it take a long time to get a machine perfect when them but it worth the time invested.
ABOM love your stuff Adjusting a level is simple The bubble will alway sit on the highest point of the fluid so, if you turn the adjust screw to lower that end of the vial, you will push the bubble away if you turn the adjust screw to raise that end of the vial, you bring the bubble to you
I have a Starrett level and I never knew that it was so easy to calibrate, thought I would've had to take it to the Bureau of Standards. Thanks for sharing this procedure'
My grandpa was a millwright and he had that same 12 inch starrett level and I got it now. he leveled the machines at the Ford motor company in St Louis. but you could do the same thing with a glass of water you're still using your eyeball to gauge.
No, not necessarily. It depends on the level of accuracy required. The vials on these levels are not filled with water. They're filled with a special fluid that is more "sensitive" than water.
@@feelthepayne88 yeah the best ones I've ever used are topcon. and of course they're not filled with water they would freeze. they were originally called Spirit levels because they had alcohol in. topcon level takes about 5 minutes to settle on a theodolite. But all that stuff is are archaic and now we use GPS.
I remember 40 years ago old Machinist telling me stories about how the Americans drilled the first microscopic hole and sent it to the Chinese and the Chinese send it back with a plug in it and a hole through the plug. Just bullshit stories I'm sure.
@@essentialjudge2279 Yeah, it was BS. Real story was Germany sent 3 of the finest steel pins to Japan to show manf. prowess. Japanese returned them with 3 holes drilled in them.
wonderful video Adam, I have a 12 inch Starrett like yours, I use to level material on band saw and my cuts come out fantastic.... .I work with 20 and 24 foot stock and reduce down to 10 to 48 inch sections...... it may be over kill using the Starrett, but it so much easier for this old man to read.......my friend was working at a nearby fab shop, and they were throwing it away......heaven forbid.......so I was the lucky one who he knew would appreciate.... cheers, Paul down in Orlando
Very cool...The larger the diameter the screwdriver handle is, the finer you can make adjustments to the leveling screw. Just a suggestion when you are trying for perfection.
Art supply, super fine pin striping brush and super black enamel and an Optivision magnifier and you can repaint those black lines. Glad you did this video. I have the 12 inch starret and it needs calibrated.
I enjoy your videos. You're professional pride makes you a craftsman at an artist level. I really like that you still have and use tools from your granddad and dad, it's a nice family legacy. If I had a machine shop teacher like you in High School I might have picked it for a career.
When you're adjusting, just remember... the bubble wants to go up! It's always looking for the high side. It's easy to get turned around unless you think about what's really going on, then it gets simple.
I too like old Lufkin tools. To me they were every bit as good and some of them even had a better feel than Starrett. I was especially depressed learning that Starrett now has factories in China. You pay more for identical tools made in the U.S. to get that Certificate "Traceable to the National Bureau of Standards". I remember when all Starrett measuring Tools came with that little certificate.
I learned something from Lipton last weekend at a Meet and Greet. He was calibrating a Japanese master grade level, and pointed out that as long as you match up the bubble, it doesn't matter if the plate is level or not, and as long as the level sits without rocking you can still calibrate it as flipping 180 degrees actually compensates for it, providing world peace. The Wiz just marked lines to lay the rule at the same position, he may have had it clamped lightly, can't remember.
I would have thought that you need to calibrate the levels in the new shop. The transporting of them there may throw them out of calibration slightly, especially the master level.🇬🇧😀
cool demonstration, thanks! that being said, lathes don't need to be perfectly-leveled, they just need to have the spindle and tail stock aligned. they use engine lathes and other precision machining tools on military ships, and they are never level.
@@Pyromaniac2450 "level with itself" doesn't mean anything...level is only in reference to the earth. as i said, the lathe spindle and the tail stock must be aligned.
@@yqwgjsg yes, i fully agree...but the bed ways being true have nothing to do with the lathe being level. joe pieczynski has an excellent video explaining it all in detail.
@@yqwgjsg do this thought experiment: you have a lathe resting on a giant reference plate that's perfectly level, and the lathe is perfectly aligned and trued, and it makes perfect cuts...now tilt that reference plate in any direction and explain how the cutting will be at all affected. it will *not.*
Adam, you should use a smaller screwdriver on width and a shorter shaft. juste the weight of the screwdriver does affect the precision of the adjustment.
A number of comments are about "eyeballing" it. But every last thing Adam does has its accuracy checked by Adam's fingers and eyes. His calipers are only as good as his fingers are. This actually works, because Adam can machine a piston to 1/1000 and slide it into a cylinder fitting perfectly and with no slack. Some other human hand calibrated that cylinder. Check out the Edge Precision channel. He runs a Computer Numerically Controlled lathe/milling machine. "Computer accuracy" is achieved by him measures where the computer has put the cutting head by using the same finger tightening the micrometer that Adam uses.
I always wondered how you would calibrate a level, if you do not have a complete level reference surface. Thank you for taking the time, and making this video, well done. Looking forward to you leveling your new lathe…
Interesting and helpful vid. I have 4 of the Starrett's and one Cooke, Troughton & Simms from York England that need to be calibrated. My lathe also turns a very slight taper, so I need to check it for a twist.
I just picked up a Starrett 199z on ebay. Mine previously belonged to the General Motors Hydramatic transmission plant in Warren, MI. It is an impressively precise tool. I set it on my kitchen counter and it could detect my 7 year old daughter walking around in the kitchen.
That's the thing - it can easily be too sensitive! You have to pick your moments. Maybe start off with a less sensitive level, and then switch over to finish things up!
Great video, Adam! Well explained, and presented, as always. I have a couple of Lufkin model 58 levels like the one you showed, an 8" and a 12". The satin chrome on yours makes it a later model than the "regular" chrome ones I've got. The Lufkin levels are actually a little more sensitive than the Starrett 98's... 0.0035"/foot for the Lufkin, vs. 0.005"/foot for the Starrett.
Hello , Around here (France) for lack of anything better, we use Cirage to restore the Vernier erased from the machines but also for this kind of engravings as well as other markings (lettering struck for example) the rendering is excellent and it also lasts long enough if that can help ...
Thanks for the video. You actually don't need a level (horizontal) surface to do this calibration. Providing the bubble is in the same position in both directions then the vial axis will then be perfectly horizontal when the bubble is in the middle. The physical adjustment to the vial requires removal of half the error (difference between the readings). Consult a good land surveying book for an explanation of the mathematics if you are interested. Thanks again.
In the video, it looks like the flat stone is not levelled in both directions (high towards Adam). That might cause a misreading. We use 0.1mm/m levels to adjust flatbed printers. I have not found any 0.05mm/m that is short enough at a decent price otherwise we would use that. The levelling surface is rather small on some models. The 199Z in the video corresponds to 0.04164mm/m. In Europe 0.02mm/m is very common.
@@F0XD1E just after replying to this i realised that i have a set as you say. i think i would go with the wrench on the screwdriver as it would have less play but a good idea nonetheless
I was thinking the same kind of thing. I was thinking a large ball handle would work well. More leverage so you don’t need as much torque and a slower rotation. And the ball shape allows you to palm it for more control. Easy enough to make one.
Does anyone make those sort of tools out of granite? IIRC one of the reason industry stuck with granite for surface plates is it tends to chip rater than dent so any minor damage tends to not result in a high spot. (BTW: I head a story somewhere that prior to WW-2, the standard for surface plates was cast iron but, due to shortages and demand, a grave stone maker started making them out of the granite they had on hand and it turned out they are better, so nobody went back.)
Adam, great video. I would like to suggest something that you may have thought of already. That when you are making your comparisons you could take a photo to compare with after the turn. That ways you can be sure of what you are remembering. ;)
Adam, you can take one more variable out of the equation: your eye! Because of constant tiny head movements, you induce a parallax variable that can’t be humanly controlled. Your camera, or even a cell phone on a tripod removes that variable. On the number 98, I could detect a tiny but noticeable difference in the bubble. I don’t think I would have been comfortable to say that if I was there in person.
Another great job Adam, I added to and edited my comment about your PM lathe installation , Plz take a look and the suggestion so you wont have the same problem I had with my new PM lathe, Might save ya some headaches and frustration. Keep up the great vids and content. Don
Absolutely need to bring back the how too videos. I’ve learned so much from you over the years of watching you but if there was a streamlined playlist of how to videos created by you… holy moly would that fast forward education
That old 18 inch level is what I believe is the model 97 that has the jappaning and the rounded bottom on the casting. The old ones are built better than the new ones… Oh and that 199 is flatter that what your machine or surface plate is ground..
I am not even at the point of accurately setting up my 4M long Victor lathe - it's close but not spot on. I have an Asian made level which is accurate to 0.05mm per metre. Tried calibrating it a few times. Patience is not my strong point. If you want to visit me in Land Down Under I would gladly accept some guidance/patience. But even when it is eventually right, and placed in its padded box, next time I use it will have to be checked and probably re-calibrated. More patience - or lack of it.
Cant wait to see how you handle leveling a lathe ;) I bet you do that pretty fast cause you are sir a experienced machinist ;) Greetings from Poland ;) !
Just wondering if they will need to be re-calibrated at new shop before leveling lathes due to temperature and humidity differences. For me they would be close enough but not sure if my close enough and Adam's are the same. Regardless of all the naysayers I find these videos more entertaining than watching chips flying around for 1/2 an hour unless the detail is provided like cut depth and feed speeds etc
Norm Abrams called the high spots "Shiners" when a shiner showed them selfes you would identify all the spots that needed work . Norm would find shiners was on hard wood flooring wile refinishing and that was a nail and you could only find after sanding and you needed to counter sink either way it was the best way to find where it needed more work to get a flat surface .
An interesting video. You should get in the habit of turning the cover over the level as soon as you are finished using it. It only takes the smallest tap to break the glass. That makes for a bad day. I was leveling a machine one time and asked for a level. They brought me one and I did not look too carefully at it. An hour later I was still struggling to get the machine level. The bubble would go from end to end. Then I took a good look at the level. It was a Master Precision Level not intended for machine leveling. It was a Metric level 0.001mm per Meter I think. After that I always carried my 6" Starrett .
Hi Adam, I was thinking that the reason why you're not achieving perfect leveling of the 199Z level is because the granite surface plate is not leveled that precisely. But that is not a problem. I think that Keith Rucker discussed this in a video some time ago. The nice things of surface plates is that they're flat. On every plane surface, even tilted, there always is a line that is horizontal and leveled. So what I think you should do is: 1) rotate the level on the plane until the bubble is centered; 2) fix the direction with the ruler (as you did); rotate the level 180° (as you did); 3) adjust half the displacement with the adjustment screw; 4) remove the reference ruler and repeat from point 1). I guess that this last step could make a difference and help to calibrate it even better. Hope this is useful, wish you the best!
You completely missed the point here didn't you - to calibrate any level, you don't need a level surface. The level just has to read exactly the same when it's rotated 180 degrees and placed in exactly the same spot. I know the video was rambly and took forever to get to the point, but it was like /r/woooosh right over your head!
@@gorak9000 I'm sorry, I think you missed my point. First, you need your reference plane to be leveled at least within the range of the level you need to calibrate. Second, from a geometry standpoint, you can't find the horizontal line on a plane at the first shot, because what you are using to find it is not a reference itself. It's an iterative process, you find the closest line within the error of the uncalibrated level, then adjust on that and then you find the next line and repeat until you don't see difference when you rotate 180°. You will never ever manage to calibrate if you keep always the same orientation because that orientation most likely is not leveled. That's why you use a surface plate, because no matter if it's leveled or not, there will always be a line lying on the plane that is leveled and adjusting the orientation allows you to get close to that while calibrating.
@@ThePaoligno90 if i understand correctly that's only needed if your reference surface is out of level beyond the level's range, like you're saying. if it's within it i wouldn't think it matters, but it may indeed be best to work in the center of the level when you're aiming for tenths/foot.
I think there's an advantage to finding the exact horizontal position on the surface plate. It will insure that you're making the adjustment when the bubble is (or should be) dead center. I fully understand that you can do the adjustment when not perfectly level, but you're counting on the bubble moving to the right AND to the left exactly the same. There may be some symmetry error in the vial, however small. Finding the exact horizontal and placing the straight edge reference in that position eliminates that variable by keeping the bubble in exactly the same position when the level is finally adjusted.
I acquired an 18" machining level off my dad, should really look who made it 😂 but its old school British, and even came in a fitted wooden box with a sliding top :)
Interesting the time you put this video out! The other night I had out my starrett level and was thinking it probably needed calibration. Wasn't sure how but I had an idea from doing my little digital angle finders I use on the race cars. Turns out that was right lol. Now to get this mill level
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Keith Rucker did a video on this that is helpful for calibrating multiple levels. After calibrating the master level, slowly rotate it on the surface plate until a clock position is found to be level. (There will be one orientation that is level even if the surface plate is not level). Lay the straight edge along side and clamp it down. All other levels positioned there can be calibrated directly to zero the first try.
I think it is this th-cam.com/video/z94tK53vYmU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=KeithRucker-VintageMachinery.org but he uses a master reference level which he knows is perfectly calibrated to check the one he has scraped.
I would never have guessed you could calibrate a level on a not perfectly level surface, but that makes complete sense.
Kind of like how you can make a mill tramming tool on a mill that's not trammed, and then use that same tool you just made to tram the mill properly and accurately.
@@nilamotk woah, how do you do that?
I think another fun bit is that, if you want to, you can find a level line on any flat plane that's reasonable close. If you think about rotating the level on a slightly tilted surface, imagine it's pointing uphill at "this" end, and then you keep rotating a bit and now it's pointing downhill. Well, somewhere in between... it was in transition, neither uphill nor downhill -- it was perfectly level. You can find that line with a level level, of course, but you can find it with an uncalibrated level by looking for the same bubble displacement at the other end after you rotate.
I had my boss show me how to check a level when I first started out. I have still use that to this day. I see a level and I then know how good that level is.
@@The_Gun_Room Check our Mr. Pete 222 channel for his recent demonstration of a very simple and easy to use tramming device. It uses a single dial indicator that swings on an arm around the vise. The heavy vise does not need to be removed.
I think it’s great that you can use your dad’s tools. It must bring back memories. My dad was a mechanic and I still use his tools. I still think about him every time I pick one up. He’s been gone since 1975.
I really appreciate your comments on temp and movement around the bench. Precision and accuracy are different but related. So many factors contributing to proper calibration.
I just watched 25 minutes of a bubble moving back and forth 0.0005 or so, an I enjoyed every minute of it 😅🤣🤣
These precision levels are extremely powerful tools to have in a machine shop that's expected to put out precision parts. I'm always blown away when I make a service call to a shop and they say they don't have one. Every shop should have several, and they should be checked for calibration every time they are used.
@@madjimbo4176 definitely need several.
@@dferree191wot2- This channel has no videos.
But lots of snark.
Adam, as usual you do a spectacular job at mentoring/teaching your trade. When a person can do such a good job mentoring that means they know what they are doing to a level of a master in your case. AWESOME thanks again for the great videos.
Thank you for taking all that effort to get good shots of the markings and bubble. That added a LOT to the video!
To get the black divisions back on that level get a black sharpie pen and paint the glass vial then when it dries rub the vial with a cloth to rub off the black sharpie and it will leave the ink in the divisional grooves
A master level like that just seems like a great way for me to lose my mind. I look forward to it one day.
Years ago I was given a 6 inch Lufkin. i Didn't know it was a precision level because i was a mechanic at the time. Long story short, all my tools were stolen and I never got a chance to use or find out what how precise a level could be since all I never got to use it other than a couple times, and I don't know if it was calibrated and I only used it in 1 direction. This was very informative. I thank you for the knowledge you have added to me.
Love the dramatic zooms on the bubble and talking hands ;) Fondly reminds me of the ToT vids :)
I remember when I worked for Maintenance Service Corporation we had a large pink granite stone that was polished and calibrated on a regular basis. It was used to calibrate our straight edges. Some of the grinding machines we restored had to hold 0.000050 tolerance.
We also had a HP laser that could resolve down to a millionth of an inch.
That's amazing, at that tolerance just the temperature changes from your breath would affect the readings.
Note that on any plane surface (like a good surface plate) which is stable, there will be a line across it that is perfectly level. You just have to rotate your reference marker (the long scale in this case) until you find that position. Rotate the reference until the level reads the same when swapped end for end. Then you can adjust the level until it reads "center". I think Tom Lipton did a good cover of this effect a while back.
well that doesn't help people w/o plate and you don't need to waste time on finding it. The whole point of the level is that it's one of the few self calibrating tools.
Yeah, the point isn't to find a level line on the plate - it's to calibrate the level itself, which you do not need a level line to accomplish - the level itself just has to read the same when flipped end for end, then the level is calibrated.
I have the Starrett 199 and the 18 inch Machinist levels. I paid $400 for the 199 and $200 for the 18" machinist. I have several other Starrett levels. I do not have a use for these levels, but they make me feel good.
sounds like tool hoarder that keeps good tools out of the hands of people that could use them, good job.
@@taylorwso I left so many other tools out there for those other guys.
@@isbcornbinder Some people like to collect tools, other like to complain on YT. $600 seems a bit expensive to me for unused tools, however most of us here probably get your point.
@@taylorwso Yeah because they only made one. SMH. 🙄
You're a dying breed my friend, and your skills are beyond admirable. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with this community as it serves a couple of purposes. Most importantly I believe it makes those of us who lack such skills TRULY appreciate the attention to detail that goes in to your craft of machine work in a country that ONCE APPRECIATED your craft, and did not take it for granted. MANY still appreciate it, however, MANY have NO CLUE of the work involved in "making stuff"... Bravo....
Actually, the way you are supposed to remove these levels from the box and place it, is with your forefingers under the edges of the Bakelite, where the casting is, on the ends of the top. So yes, you are touching the metal under both sides. But, when you handle it, the touch is just with your fingertips, and for a short time. The mass of the level is enough that it doesn’t get effected by this, and the heating, if any, is even in both ends. The level wasn’t really made to just grip it by the Bakelite. They didn’t build in grip areas on just the Bakelite, you really must touch the casting. But just lift by these ends and you’re fine. I’ve been doing this for many years, and I haven’t found it to have any effect on the readings.
If you try to lift it by the edges of the Bakelite, you have to grip hard so it won’t slip out of your hand, and will likely touch the side of the casting anyway. Slipping your fingers under the ends lifts it easily out of the Bo’s. Try it if you haven’t. You’ll like it.
Used one for setting a turbine generator at a processing plant in northern BC we had to use it in the morning only because by noon the drastic temperature changes would change the calibration, it is crazy how accurate they are and how such a little thing like temperature can affect them
Steel changes at .00000065 per degree F per foot. Carpenter apprenticeship told us how to correct our steel layout tapes. Only made differences in excess of 400’. After the test we were told we would never use it again. Surveying Montana, the Dakotas, and Wyoming for sure they had to correct their measuring chains for temperature.
some black india ink can be applied on a q-tip and rubbed into the hashes etched in the glass, restoring the black. Enamel paint can also be used
Thanks for sharing with us Adam, great job with the precision levels. Looking forward to the next video. Fred.
As long as it’s the same reading down the bed it doesn’t matter if the level is calibrated. Only time it matters if the level is way off and you want to make sure your coolant drains.
I rarely calibrate mine and usually pitch them towards the sump and check twist.
Correct, Lathe does not need to be level. Just no twist in the bed.
Adam has posted two videos to this channel showing how he and Lance made that granite surface plate accurate to the Grade AA specification based on the American Society of Mechanical Engineers B89.3.7 standard. The Grade AA plates are the highest accuracy plates, and they are often found in calibration laboratories. Adam has a plate that is flat to 1,000,000 of an inch in every direction. This video th-cam.com/video/-CM3VWKXasY/w-d-xo.html shows how this was done. And this video th-cam.com/video/VrodNx759oo/w-d-xo.html shows more of the process.
What seems to be missing in this discussion is that you don't actually have to calibrate these levels before you 'level' your lathe. You simply maintain the same orientation as you move the level from one end of the lathe to the other. When the bubble is centered* in the vial at each end of the lathe bed then each end is in the same plane and there is no twist. You are not actually trying to 'level' the lathe, only remove any twist from the bed. * Note: The bubble doesn't have to be perfectly centered either, as long as it is reasonably close to centre and in the exact same spot at each end of the bed. Ken
True. I think he calibrated it to show his viewers the correct way using a surface plate.
I like seeing how to take care of your tools. Just as important as putting the tools to work. No objection at all to seeing more videos like this.
We have 3 of the Starrett 199's in my shop I always put one with the ways one across the ways and one at a 45 for cross reference. Those things are so sensitive it take a long time to get a machine perfect when them but it worth the time invested.
ABOM love your stuff
Adjusting a level is simple
The bubble will alway sit on the highest point of the fluid so,
if you turn the adjust screw to lower that end of the vial, you will push the bubble away
if you turn the adjust screw to raise that end of the vial, you bring the bubble to you
I have a Starrett level and I never knew that it was so easy to calibrate, thought I would've had to take it to the Bureau of Standards. Thanks for sharing this procedure'
My grandpa was a millwright and he had that same 12 inch starrett level and I got it now. he leveled the machines at the Ford motor company in St Louis.
but you could do the same thing with a glass of water you're still using your eyeball to gauge.
No, not necessarily. It depends on the level of accuracy required. The vials on these levels are not filled with water. They're filled with a special fluid that is more "sensitive" than water.
@@feelthepayne88 yeah the best ones I've ever used are topcon. and of course they're not filled with water they would freeze. they were originally called Spirit levels because they had alcohol in. topcon level takes about 5 minutes to settle on a theodolite. But all that stuff is are archaic and now we use GPS.
All that precision really doesn't matter it's not like we're trying to machine invisible drill bits
I remember 40 years ago old Machinist telling me stories about how the Americans drilled the first microscopic hole and sent it to the Chinese and the Chinese send it back with a plug in it and a hole through the plug. Just bullshit stories I'm sure.
@@essentialjudge2279 Yeah, it was BS. Real story was Germany sent 3 of the finest steel pins to Japan to show manf. prowess. Japanese returned them with 3 holes drilled in them.
The master level is so sensitive. What a exercise in patience nice job
Realy nice education on the levels there Adam. Thanks for charing 🙂
wonderful video Adam, I have a 12 inch Starrett like yours,
I use to level material on band saw and my cuts come out fantastic....
.I work with 20 and 24 foot stock and
reduce down to 10 to 48 inch sections......
it may be over kill using the Starrett, but it so much easier for this old man
to read.......my friend was working at a nearby fab shop, and they were throwing it
away......heaven forbid.......so I was the lucky one who he knew would appreciate....
cheers, Paul down in Orlando
Very cool...The larger the diameter the screwdriver handle is, the finer you can make adjustments to the leveling screw. Just a suggestion when you are trying for perfection.
Art supply, super fine pin striping brush and super black enamel and an Optivision magnifier and you can repaint those black lines. Glad you did this video. I have the 12 inch starret and it needs calibrated.
I enjoy your videos. You're professional pride makes you a craftsman at an artist level. I really like that you still have and use tools from your granddad and dad, it's a nice family legacy. If I had a machine shop teacher like you in High School I might have picked it for a career.
When you're adjusting, just remember... the bubble wants to go up! It's always looking for the high side. It's easy to get turned around unless you think about what's really going on, then it gets simple.
I too like old Lufkin tools. To me they were every bit as good and some of them even had a better feel than Starrett. I was especially depressed learning that Starrett now has factories in China. You pay more for identical tools made in the U.S. to get that Certificate "Traceable to the National Bureau of Standards". I remember when all Starrett measuring Tools came with that little certificate.
I learned something from Lipton last weekend at a Meet and Greet. He was calibrating a Japanese master grade level, and pointed out that as long as you match up the bubble, it doesn't matter if the plate is level or not, and as long as the level sits without rocking you can still calibrate it as flipping 180 degrees actually compensates for it, providing world peace. The Wiz just marked lines to lay the rule at the same position, he may have had it clamped lightly, can't remember.
the radius groove on the bottom is there so you can use them on shafts and rollers.
my newer one has a, V instead of a radius.
I would have thought that you need to calibrate the levels in the new shop. The transporting of them there may throw them out of calibration slightly, especially the master level.🇬🇧😀
I have an old visual transit that I need to calibrate. I believe this will help me. This doesn't have to be as accurate.
Thanks for sharing!
I have one of those Starrett 98-4 levels, and it worked well to level out my little Atlas 618.
cool demonstration, thanks! that being said, lathes don't need to be perfectly-leveled, they just need to have the spindle and tail stock aligned. they use engine lathes and other precision machining tools on military ships, and they are never level.
The machine needs to be level with itself or it will turn a taper
@@Pyromaniac2450 "level with itself" doesn't mean anything...level is only in reference to the earth. as i said, the lathe spindle and the tail stock must be aligned.
@@douglasharley2440 That won’t account for twist and bow of the ways. A lathe is not monolithic. A lathe that is not level makes undependable cuts.
@@yqwgjsg yes, i fully agree...but the bed ways being true have nothing to do with the lathe being level. joe pieczynski has an excellent video explaining it all in detail.
@@yqwgjsg do this thought experiment: you have a lathe resting on a giant reference plate that's perfectly level, and the lathe is perfectly aligned and trued, and it makes perfect cuts...now tilt that reference plate in any direction and explain how the cutting will be at all affected. it will *not.*
Adam, you should use a smaller screwdriver on width and a shorter shaft. juste the weight of the screwdriver does affect the precision of the adjustment.
wish Lufkin still made machinist tool. I used Lufkin micrometer back in the Mid 1980's. The company i worked for at that time own them.
A number of comments are about "eyeballing" it. But every last thing Adam does has its accuracy checked by Adam's fingers and eyes. His calipers are only as good as his fingers are. This actually works, because Adam can machine a piston to 1/1000 and slide it into a cylinder fitting perfectly and with no slack. Some other human hand calibrated that cylinder. Check out the Edge Precision channel. He runs a Computer Numerically Controlled lathe/milling machine. "Computer accuracy" is achieved by him measures where the computer has put the cutting head by using the same finger tightening the micrometer that Adam uses.
The 12 and 18 inch levels by starrett are known as machinist levels also known as shaft levels.
"I think it'll work if it fits in the hole there"
Ah, truer words never spoken
I always wondered how you would calibrate a level, if you do not have a complete level reference surface. Thank you for taking the time, and making this video, well done. Looking forward to you leveling your new lathe…
This same process works for checking laser-plumb levels. Rotate 180 and check/verify the diffraction distance to see how far off of true it is.
Now we're all on the same level! Thank you for a really informative video. :)
Interesting and helpful vid. I have 4 of the Starrett's and one Cooke, Troughton & Simms from York England that need to be calibrated. My lathe also turns a very slight taper, so I need to check it for a twist.
Roughly 0,04mm/meter. That is a nice level. That is a very nice level!
I just picked up a Starrett 199z on ebay. Mine previously belonged to the General Motors Hydramatic transmission plant in Warren, MI. It is an impressively precise tool. I set it on my kitchen counter and it could detect my 7 year old daughter walking around in the kitchen.
How much did you get it for? They seem to be upwards of $400 on ebay regularly now - just a couple of years ago, the prices were much cheaper.
@@gorak9000 $251.16 total with shipping. To be clear, that included the wood box. Don't buy one without the box.
That's the thing - it can easily be too sensitive! You have to pick your moments. Maybe start off with a less sensitive level, and then switch over to finish things up!
Great video, Adam! Well explained, and presented, as always.
I have a couple of Lufkin model 58 levels like the one you showed, an 8" and a 12". The satin chrome on yours makes it a later model than the "regular" chrome ones I've got.
The Lufkin levels are actually a little more sensitive than the Starrett 98's... 0.0035"/foot for the Lufkin, vs. 0.005"/foot for the Starrett.
Hello ,
Around here (France) for lack of anything better, we use Cirage to restore the Vernier erased from the machines but also for this kind of engravings as well as other markings (lettering struck for example) the rendering is excellent and it also lasts long enough if that can help ...
You learn something new every day. Good tutorial on this topic, and it’s always nice seeing your collection of tools.
Thanks for the video. You actually don't need a level (horizontal) surface to do this calibration. Providing the bubble is in the same position in both directions then the vial axis will then be perfectly horizontal when the bubble is in the middle. The physical adjustment to the vial requires removal of half the error (difference between the readings). Consult a good land surveying book for an explanation of the mathematics if you are interested. Thanks again.
He just spent 25min explaining that very thing.
@@rusty1597 No, no, no. Abom just spent a half hour explaining that...
Greg from northern Michigan. Yup, this re-confirms that Adam is always on the level ! Abby too ! Another nice video ...
In the video, it looks like the flat stone is not levelled in both directions (high towards Adam). That might cause a misreading. We use 0.1mm/m levels to adjust flatbed printers. I have not found any 0.05mm/m that is short enough at a decent price otherwise we would use that. The levelling surface is rather small on some models. The 199Z in the video corresponds to 0.04164mm/m. In Europe 0.02mm/m is very common.
Very good video, very well explained. And yes, a naked hand cleans a measuring plate much better than a microfibre cloth...
Ironic...
Abom, try using a right angle screw driver, the longer lever will give you more control over the adjustment....
I was thinking a screwdriver with a hex on it and use a wrench to move said screwdriver (long way round but many dont have a right angle screwdriver
@@connahjones8178 they're easy to make if you've got a blowtorch and a vise.
or a screwdriver socket bit
@@F0XD1E just after replying to this i realised that i have a set as you say. i think i would go with the wrench on the screwdriver as it would have less play but a good idea nonetheless
If you use “T” type handle, by moving the ends of the t you can make shorter turns
I was thinking the same kind of thing. I was thinking a large ball handle would work well. More leverage so you don’t need as much torque and a slower rotation. And the ball shape allows you to palm it for more control. Easy enough to make one.
Wonderful levels almost like art in my eyes
Does anyone make those sort of tools out of granite? IIRC one of the reason industry stuck with granite for surface plates is it tends to chip rater than dent so any minor damage tends to not result in a high spot.
(BTW: I head a story somewhere that prior to WW-2, the standard for surface plates was cast iron but, due to shortages and demand, a grave stone maker started making them out of the granite they had on hand and it turned out they are better, so nobody went back.)
Adam, great video. I would like to suggest something that you may have thought of already. That when you are making your comparisons you could take a photo to compare with after the turn. That ways you can be sure of what you are remembering. ;)
good idea!
Adam, you can take one more variable out of the equation: your eye! Because of constant tiny head movements, you induce a parallax variable that can’t be humanly controlled. Your camera, or even a cell phone on a tripod removes that variable. On the number 98, I could detect a tiny but noticeable difference in the bubble. I don’t think I would have been comfortable to say that if I was there in person.
Perfect timing! I just got a machinist level delivered and was planning on leveling out my lathe this weekend.
They were wonderful to see. Beautiful things. Crazy isn't it how we get emotional about craftsmanship.
Good content and I really like the new shop.
Always learn something, no matter how old you get. Thank you sir.
Yaaay, 1st comment! Love your new shop, buddy. Can't wait til your makin chips
Another great job Adam, I added to and edited my comment about your PM lathe installation , Plz take a look and the suggestion so you wont have the same problem I had with my new PM lathe, Might save ya some headaches and frustration. Keep up the great vids and content.
Don
Absolutely need to bring back the how too videos. I’ve learned so much from you over the years of watching you but if there was a streamlined playlist of how to videos created by you… holy moly would that fast forward education
I do enjoy your videos especially the ones like this where you go into all the details! Brilliant.
That old 18 inch level is what I believe is the model 97 that has the jappaning and the rounded bottom on the casting. The old ones are built better than the new ones…
Oh and that 199 is flatter that what your machine or surface plate is ground..
I love letting "regular " people use our Starrett 199 at my work. They usually come back frustrated and ask for a carpenters level.
I am not even at the point of accurately setting up my 4M long Victor lathe - it's close but not spot on. I have an Asian made level which is accurate to 0.05mm per metre. Tried calibrating it a few times. Patience is not my strong point. If you want to visit me in Land Down Under I would gladly accept some guidance/patience. But even when it is eventually right, and placed in its padded box, next time I use it will have to be checked and probably re-calibrated. More patience - or lack of it.
decent set of srewdrivers ??
Cant wait to see how you handle leveling a lathe ;) I bet you do that pretty fast cause you are sir a experienced machinist ;) Greetings from Poland ;) !
I love precision. Thanks so much!
than you should not wath these videos
Just wondering if they will need to be re-calibrated at new shop before leveling lathes due to temperature and humidity differences. For me they would be close enough but not sure if my close enough and Adam's are the same.
Regardless of all the naysayers I find these videos more entertaining than watching chips flying around for 1/2 an hour unless the detail is provided like cut depth and feed speeds etc
I have two 199's and two .0005 Fowler levels. Calibrating them requires a lot of patience. The 98's are dream in comparison.
I’ll just make ONE more adjustment here …. Or several if I can’t get it right 😂 story of my life
Norm Abrams called the high spots "Shiners" when a shiner showed them selfes you would identify all the spots that needed work . Norm would find shiners was on hard wood flooring wile refinishing and that was a nail and you could only find after sanding and you needed to counter sink either way it was the best way to find where it needed more work to get a flat surface .
An interesting video. You should get in the habit of turning the cover over the level as soon as you are finished using it. It only takes the smallest tap to break the glass. That makes for a bad day.
I was leveling a machine one time and asked for a level. They brought me one and I did not look too carefully at it. An hour later I was still struggling to get the machine level. The bubble would go from end to end. Then I took a good look at the level. It was a Master Precision Level not intended for machine leveling. It was a Metric level 0.001mm per Meter I think. After that I always carried my 6" Starrett .
I wish I'd stayed with the machine shop classes in high school...
Why not get back to it?
Adam, when you wipe a surface with your hand to clean it aren't you leaving some oil from your skin?
Will that throw your measurements off?
The thickness of the oil film under pressure is probably a hundredth of a thou. Nothing to worry about for this type of work
... but the advantage of using your actual hand is that you can feel any grit -- pretty easily!
How thick is a sharpie mark? Oxtoolco.
Can't wait either to see chips in the new shop time to go to work lot 9f money spent got to put some back in the pocket
at this rate his lease will end before he does any jobs in the new shop 😅
Left to right looked spot on
The top to bottom small vial was whacked out.
Good video . Wow that’s a awesome level a 5 tenth per foot never seen one that close
I'm running starrett bands on my little saw, seems like a good brand👌👍🇦🇺
bought one just like that for 100.00 2 years back great deal
Hi Adam, I was thinking that the reason why you're not achieving perfect leveling of the 199Z level is because the granite surface plate is not leveled that precisely. But that is not a problem. I think that Keith Rucker discussed this in a video some time ago. The nice things of surface plates is that they're flat. On every plane surface, even tilted, there always is a line that is horizontal and leveled. So what I think you should do is: 1) rotate the level on the plane until the bubble is centered; 2) fix the direction with the ruler (as you did); rotate the level 180° (as you did); 3) adjust half the displacement with the adjustment screw; 4) remove the reference ruler and repeat from point 1). I guess that this last step could make a difference and help to calibrate it even better.
Hope this is useful,
wish you the best!
You completely missed the point here didn't you - to calibrate any level, you don't need a level surface. The level just has to read exactly the same when it's rotated 180 degrees and placed in exactly the same spot. I know the video was rambly and took forever to get to the point, but it was like /r/woooosh right over your head!
@@gorak9000 I'm sorry, I think you missed my point. First, you need your reference plane to be leveled at least within the range of the level you need to calibrate. Second, from a geometry standpoint, you can't find the horizontal line on a plane at the first shot, because what you are using to find it is not a reference itself. It's an iterative process, you find the closest line within the error of the uncalibrated level, then adjust on that and then you find the next line and repeat until you don't see difference when you rotate 180°. You will never ever manage to calibrate if you keep always the same orientation because that orientation most likely is not leveled. That's why you use a surface plate, because no matter if it's leveled or not, there will always be a line lying on the plane that is leveled and adjusting the orientation allows you to get close to that while calibrating.
@@ThePaoligno90 if i understand correctly that's only needed if your reference surface is out of level beyond the level's range, like you're saying.
if it's within it i wouldn't think it matters, but it may indeed be best to work in the center of the level when you're aiming for tenths/foot.
I think there's an advantage to finding the exact horizontal position on the surface plate. It will insure that you're making the adjustment when the bubble is (or should be) dead center. I fully understand that you can do the adjustment when not perfectly level, but you're counting on the bubble moving to the right AND to the left exactly the same. There may be some symmetry error in the vial, however small. Finding the exact horizontal and placing the straight edge reference in that position eliminates that variable by keeping the bubble in exactly the same position when the level is finally adjusted.
I learned so much!!! Thank you
Yes 129 for the little one and 1076 for the master. Wow, at that price we can use the earth that is flat instead :)
Thanks for the very informative video🤗😎🤗😎
I don't know why? But the more precise you get, the more relaxing the video.
Those .0005 per ft. levels are hard to get used too... or to?
Remember not to end a sentence with a preposition.
I would so have to fill in the lines on the vial, if they are etched.
I acquired an 18" machining level off my dad, should really look who made it 😂 but its old school British, and even came in a fitted wooden box with a sliding top :)
Interesting the time you put this video out! The other night I had out my starrett level and was thinking it probably needed calibration. Wasn't sure how but I had an idea from doing my little digital angle finders I use on the race cars. Turns out that was right lol. Now to get this mill level