HAPPY SUNDAY, NOTIFICATION SQUAD! Also wanna add something here: In RPG situations where Digimon level up from level 1 to level 99, we'd probably refer to their evolution level as their "Stage". So Greymon would be a Stage 4 at Level 50, for example
Honestly just replace Perfect & Ultimate/ Ultimate & Mega with Super & Ultra then replace the original Ultra level with Hyper. Or keep the original Ultra level but replace the Ultra that I put after Super with Hyper. This way you have fighting game’s combo titles as the levels. Baby, In-Training, Rookie, Champion, Super, Hyper, “Ultra”. You could also add a Rank system next to those levels to show which Digimon is naturally stronger. Ex.) Agumon: Level - Rookie; Rank 1. Lucemon: Level - Rookie; Rank 5.
The problem with the “Age” thing is that it has been established that Natural Digimon (Digimon that were never born within a V-Pet) do not age at all. So it never had any weight on Digimon as a whole.
According to Digimon Profile, most Digimon never evolve past the Adult stage, hence why it's considered their full maturation. Perfect levels are supposed to evolve from only the strongest Adult levels and Ultimates are supposed to be Perfect levels that survived harsh battles and went further beyond their limits. So yeah not every Digimon is meant to fully evolve in the Digital World which is why the classic level system works a little better when you look at it like that.
I'd be fine with that, but the problem is that most Digimon media doesn't actually play by those rules. We see Ultimates/Perfect milling around in anime, manga games etc all the time, not even to mention the number of Ultimates that are no stronger than Champion/Adult level. You could claim that the conceptual lore of Digimon holds precedence over what's shown....but that's not how media and lore works. Claims of feats are worthless, only what is shown matters. So the fact we see Ultimates everywhere no stronger than any other completely negates that baseline design rule.
To me, if you have a stage called “perfect”, it should BE THE FINAL STAGE. Even from a lore perspective, perfect should be when they are at their peak, post limit breaking
@@Rhinox-89 You can have a truly perfect handsaw and still want to keep a chainsaw around for some sawing duties. Perfection is contextual, so a creature perfected for their needs can still be presented with a challenge that would require them to evolve to overcome it. If perfection wasn't contextual in the digimon world, then there'd only be one perfect-level digimon because anything different from the absolute perfect digimon necessarily cannot be perfect.
@DianaTheLance You're absolutely correct about the true nature of perfection. Although that still raises the question of how Perfect is a stage of development at all, since nearly 0 Ultimate/Perfect Digimon actually fill their niche or role ideally. Andromon is a perfect (heh) example. He's inherently incomplete and limited, compared even to other Cyborg Digimon. Yet he's one of the first in the Perfect tier. I think the point Perfect shouldn't be used as a measure for "living" things stands, as it simply becomes confusing at best.
@@clayxros576If you read the japanese meaning, Perfect was not meant as a stage development, but an enhancement. This is why child and adult stage are called 成長期 and 成熟期. The 期 means phase, but perfect is called 完全体 (kanzentai), the 体 means body, hence perfect body instead of perfect phase. Adult is the final phase of a digimon's growth, the rest is just enhancement towards its physical form. Like how greymon evolves into metalgreymon as a "perfection" of its body enhancement using mechanical parts
There's another side to the Level names in Japanese that is a bit missing since it's rarely mentioned. While it's true that from Baby to Adult they are named after stages of growth, it's also the case because, in Japanese, the names have a suffix "期" (ki) that means "time/period/age". So literally the stages are called "Baby-period", "Child-period", and "Adult-period" (Although I also like to use Baby-stage, Child-stage, Adult-stage). For Perfect, Ultimate, Armor, and Hybrid the suffix changes, it becomes "体" (Tai) which means "Body". So literally the names are "Perfect-body", "Ultimate-body", "Armor-body" and "Hybrid-body". In Japanese the terms are divided into "growth stages" because in lore Digimon evolution from Baby up to Adult levels is thought as natural and even very low training can already make Digimon reach such states just by growing older (Although reaching Adult-stage without training will result in the Numemon-types normally). "Perfect-bodies" were originally a result of Digimon literally changing their bodies to become something more due to the result of intense training and battles, it's why originally the Digimon would only evolve into those stages after various battles. And of course, the original Perfect Digimon were most of them all artificial creations or mutations that were outside of natural growth, such as Metalized Digimon, Stuffed Toy Digimon, Mutated Digimon, etc. Although more natural-like Perfect were made, this was more or less the same intent and this followed up with Ultimates, as even in-lore most Digimon are considered to naturally reach the Adult level, while Perfects and Ultimates are higher in number as individuals, but not as populations. About Perfect into Ultimates, the intent is that while Perfects represents the "highest" state normally seen for Digimon, Ultimates is a state in which they "break their limits" reaching a state that is akin to godhood (Although only a few media represent the great difference Ultimates are supposed to represent, like V-Tamer, Savers, and more recently Seekers which they constantly making comparisons between Ultimates and gods). Of course, Armors and Hybrids also follow the notion of Digimon reaching a new state from means other than just growing, and even training, as it uses the Digimentals and Spirits to literally change their bodies in a new state that is represented by the equipped data. As I really enjoy looking over the original settings and the various attempts at making sense of them, I prefer the Japanese terminology because of that (In special I find it funny that Adults are called Champions in the dub terminology when in the original V-pets, you didn't need to actually fight to become that level, only battle training with your clone was enough, the only need to win actual fights was for Perfects, so if they wanted to still make sense in the original material, they should call Perfects as Champions, In-training also would fit more either Child or Adults IMO). Of course, originally a few Japanese resources did call what is now Perfect as Ultimates, but it was only a book series IIRC, and the moment they reached the Pendulum series they changed to what it's now.
Also, while most of the Japanese level names translate unambiguously, the exception is "Kanzentai", Level 5; Kanzen can be translated as "perfect", but it can also mean "complete", which arguably makes more sense.
@DigitalWorldArchive @NovaSaber you two already posted both parts of what I wanted to say here. Yes, the "Perfect" and "Ultimate" names from Japan were accurate translations but they were also not the only way to translate it, as they can be (maybe more accurately?) translated as "Complete-Body" and "Higher-Body", indicating some evolution that was obtained by something other than natural growth or that it's not something everyone is going to become. This is something that got lost when Digimon came to America with most levels now having more combat or power related naming.
The level system does make more sense and make it easier, though it does make it easier for power creep.... People will always then want level 8s and 9s etc. Mode changes and Jogres have been Digimons way to escalate without making a whole new level. But your idea is the best so far.
It's only a matter of time until we get a Level 8 in the series anyway. For a very long time Level 7/Ultra/Super-Ultimate was only a thing in the V-Tamer manga even though a lot of the Digimon that are currently classified as Level 7 existed as "Beyond Ultimate" yet were just regarded as more powerful Ultimate forms. Eventually they decided that they needed another Level beyond Ultimate and adopted Super-Ultimate/Level 7 for that. We already have degrees of power among the Level 7s. Eventually there will be enough of them and enough variation that they'll decide to elevate them to a "new" level of power. Thus Level 8.
V-pets have been using the levelling system for decades now, even using Level 6+ and 6++ for certain Digimon, one of those 6++ Digimon is Jesmon GX who is a Level 7 in the card game. They’ve definitely capped things there, especially since the card game still labels the Level 7 cards as Ultimate/Mega instead of Ultra or Super Ultimate.
The first Wargreymon evolving among his peers: M is for Mega, what the power that I've gained is E is for Exclusion, your design the anime changes G for Generalization, as the peak of any line A is for the Ass I'm bout to kick, now that you're all out of time~
As a Southern boy the idea of "Bits" representing the levels was funnier in my head. Baby - Itty Bit In-Training - Tiny Bit Rookie - Lil Bit Champion - Big Bit Ultimate - Bigger Bit Mega - Lotta Bit Ultra - Too Much Bit
I agree the Level system in the card game is good and really easy to understand for everyone...though they might wanna call them something other than "Level", because if you throw that into another Digimon RPG, you'll have "Oh I got a Level 24 Level 5 Digimon" which is once again, confusing lol. Maybe call them "Ranks"?
@@Karn_EX While most Digimon media didn't make it to the west until 1999, the original V-Pet was actually localized almost immediately after it was released in Japan, still in 1997. Understandable mistake though.
@@NobodyBasically Yes, Digimon first came into US back in 1998 with the digital monster vpet, that's where the stage naming came from. Many people didn't recognize digimon's existence until the anime aired
My only issue is calling them level 1-7 just kind of sounds too boring for an anime. It works well in a card game sense for making things easy to understand though. A "mega level digimon" just sounds more badass then "a level 7 digimon". Dragon ball ran into that same issue kind of with power levels on the scouters since it was hard to really envision how strong someone with a power level of 1,000 was.
The first 4 anime are my exposure to Digimon. I've always seen it as a combination of "age" as far as maturation, experience, and achieving natural potential, then transitioning into "getting superpowers." Going from baby to child to adult is easily understood. Going from Adult/Champion to Perfect/Ultimate isn't like reaching middle age: it's more like you've achieved the absolute peak of your natural potential. Not every person or Digimon can do that, which is why it's "Perfect"/"Ultimate" for those who can. The Levels above that are about transcending to the state of demigods and outright gods, which only a rare few can ever experience. Partner Digimon are exceptions to the normal rules because their bonds with Digidestined grant them extraordinary powers, but only when an emotionally charged crisis catalyzes them to rise to meet a threat.
I like the levels/stages being based on amount of data they take up. So bits and bytes, still get to leave megas at megabytes, then above that giga, and terabytes.
Personally, if this was me tasked with localizing Digimon in the 90's I'd have continued with the sports references all the way through -- Child, In-Training, Rookie, Veteran, Champion, Legend. I think an American audience in particularly would know intuitively which evolution falls where.
Love these. They reflect the best aspects the dub terms while keeping a through line of the ideas. I would still keep baby for the first stage and change Champion with Veteran. How I see it, it would be in terms of fighting a rookie who starting out fighting, then a champion someone who won a few battles and one championship, then Veteran someone who can teach the next gen, and then Legend someone who is so strong they will live on forever. But that's just me.
The way I look at it, only the first 4 levels indicate age (in many vpets, adult or lv4 is guaranteed to be achieved with the simple passage of time). Once a digimon reaches maturity (adult level), it can undergo special training or be exposed to special conditions to surpass the average power level of a digimon and become “perfect”. After that, even fewer of those perfect digimon train so hard and are so outstanding that they surpass the upper limit of their strength and evolve even further to ultimate. Ultimate would be a digimon’s equivalent to being superhuman I guess while perfect would more so be like being a master at something but not demonstrating any skills that surpass whats naturally possible.
That's basically what the Japanese naming-system implies. the first 4 levels use the suffix "-ki" to denote their stage, with the kanji referring to a "period of time", a state of maturity. meanwhile Perfect and Ultimate use the suffix "-tai", using the kanji for "body" and thus probably referring specifically to a "form" or the state that the body is in.
I definitely agree with using the Level/Stage system. I also really like the “bit” idea, but as you said, that could get complicated to distinguish. It would be nice though to refer to Gatomon as Stage 4 Lv. 30 without the tail ring and then Stage 4 Lv. 50 with it.
An addition to the bit idea. Instead of a number, have a term, like young, mature, senior and elder, to denote the time a digimon spent on their level. A Elder Giga (champion) level beating a Young Tera (ultimate) level is something that not only could happen, its the expected.
What’s really funny is just the other day I was working out lines for a digimon dnd campaign with some friends and one asked “wait, Omnimon is a mega level?” So yeah you’ve definitely got a point, I while heartedly agree with the final verdict
My fiancée and I began playing the TGC some time ago, and she wanted to know more about digimon, so we went ahead to the adventure anime. Whenever a new digimon appears, we talk about it following the TCG's level system. It's way easier and really shows the gravity of some encounters, like the early fight with Andromon. Champion, Ultimate and Perfect don't really say a lot to someone who isn't initiated. Level 4, 5 and 6 are way easier to understand
Personally I view how it goes as power based but akin to Dragons in D&D: Digimon gradually grow stronger with age automatically and as they get older, they'll eventually reach a threshold where they digivolve to that next stage, thus the association of each level with age and why the higher up you go, the more rare each level is until you get to Mega, where the super old Digimon who run the show more or less reside. Being a Digimon Partner meanwhile is sort of akin to getting temporary power ups to let them reach their higher stages quicker but only temporarily vs the more Permanent state of naturally occurring Higher Stage Digimon. This is how I viewed it anyway, I could be quite wrong
This actually makes a ton of sense considering that many digimon gets their own (pardon the expression) pokedex entry. You hear tales of the struggles, triumphs, or just general experiences/happenstance each went through to obtain that level of power, weaponry, or armor. This is not how we generally see things happen in virtually any digimon media you call on a digivice you do a thing depending on the era and digivolution just kinda happens. What if those entries describe how a digimon would naturally undergo that level of growth.
@@triforceofcourage100 It makes more sense for it to be a natural byproduct of them growing stronger with age as they fight, train, grow, etceteras. Thus when you see a Partner Digimon or a Digimon otherwise enhanced by a non-standard means, those forms are usually temporary and/or exceptions to the rule. In some cases ya might get Digimon who can even freely go between their highest form and those lower on their Digivolution line
@@wulfryanseptim8592 thanks. It always made sense to me with how Stronger Digimon were usually presented as Older while Partner Digimon were the exception due to having a partner, letting them Digivolve within minutes of first hatching, retain memories between reincarnations, and generally being quite distinct from normal Digimon.
I mean the Bit system is basically what Cybersleuth did. You have the various stages and then also lv 1 to lv 99 for every stage. So you could easily beat low level Megas with high level Champions for example.
I really like that Ultimate comes after Perfect (and Mega after Ultimate in English) because it implies that they've gone beyond what would typically be seen as the peak for that Digimon species because you as its partner have taken such good care of it. It's a reward for your hard work
Yeah that was good initially but as I said we now have Super-Ultimate/Ultra which goes beyond again, kinda reduces Mega as being the going beyond stage
I agree with the Bit System. Having a Megabit digimon digivolve into a Gigabit digimon would be awesome. Also I’m not quite sure if after mega giga is the next one. Having those levels would definitely help me 😅 I know wich digimon level comes after one. I’m not sure about the bits. Having both being the same would help me remeber
Imo age matters to some extent. Yes, agumon can evolve from koromon to wargreymon freely and vice versa, but that is thanks to the digivice. Normal digimons don't digivolve and devolve freely short term I think evolving from baby to adult is age based, naturally maturing. However beyond that, it requires training, absorbing data, or powering up any other way That is pretty much why tailmon's default stage is adult. While the others are sent to be eggs, she spent all that time being alive and maturing naturally
The numerical level system makes a lot of sense but I really like the "bit" idea just for how it sounds. Referring to them as "terabit" and "exabit" level feels so on-brand
Also, since we’re talking about computers, it’s actually 1024 to go up the next one so you theoretically could have a 1000 exhibit Digimon, who hasn’t gone over to Yotabits because you need another 24 exabits
0:53 Random and curious comment: I'm from Brazil and I remember that here we basically used the US system with the translated names, with one exception: Bebê (baby), Em treinamento (In-training), Novato (Rookie), Campeão (Champion), *Perfeito (Perfect)* and Mega. Instead of Ultimate, we used Perfect, the term used in the Japanese version for the same level.
@@prof.thiagoalmeida1226 that is true Probably either because ultimate is a kind of a tricky word to translate or because delay in production for the arrival of English terminology
@@chicabu67 This makes sense both ways. It could even have been a bit of both. Ultimate was a difficult term to translate, and a possible delay in international translation would have meant not being able to use other languages (French or Spanish) as a basis for comparison, so it was easier to go with the Japanese translation. Who knows?
Levels also make things much easier for newcomers, which I think may have been part of BN's reasoning for using them in the card game. Someone who knows nothing about Digimon might get tripped up by having to remember even more terms, but numbers are self-explanatory.
I must be insane but I thought it was confirmed somewhere that the levels and age system where one and the same up from Fresh to Adult as that was is Digimon's natural lifecycle as they absorb data from eating and experiencing life with them naturally dying/reincarnating after a certain amount of time in the Adult unless they push themselves further with things like Perfect/Ultimate and Ultimate/Mega being the result of training or external circumstances like items, rituals, prophecies and whatnot and the reason why partner digimon revert is because the bond with a tamer allows them to gain a large influx of data, breaking their limits and aging themselves up temporarily which is why they de-digivolve usually back to the base state they were naturally at or in the cases where they basically exceed revert back to a baby from mega it's actually them skipping certain aspects of the reincarnation cycle P.S. the last thing is just speculation going off of the shows and my personal theory on why they go baby mode after using up to much data but not die
It is the same, that's what I talk about in the video haha But no stuff like the anime just skips the aging thing as evolution is much more free with warps, DNA etc etc while it may still TECHNICALLY be a factor it's incredibly sidelined in comparison to vpets/World games.
I always thought the evolution of Digimon as occupations because it's nonlinear and the Digimon's experience. Give Impmon a toy gun, it becomes part of its identity in later levels. Treat Agumon like shit, it becomes dark, show Gilmon love it becomes Gallant. So on and so forth. so if we were to lean into it more we could go Baby> Training> Rookie> Junior> Senior> Master> Legend with DNA, fusion, Armor, and any other subtype as prefixes for them. It kinda speaks for itself. It keeps age, it keeps power levels, it translates well, all cultures understand the pecking order of society. When you get fired, quit, or are off duty you revert to a stage your comfortable with. I always done this to keep my Digimon power levels straight in my head and thought I'd share.
I do not understand why you choose to use negative levels (if you feel up for doing so, please explain your thought process/reasoning) As to me it makes more sense that a Digimon egg would be seen as a level 0 so any stage above that would logically require positive numbers
@@Sakomi_Arorim I'd probably just try to look at logic. Just like @pn2294 said, it's likely because the previous stages cannot fight effectively. Eggs are just eggs because they don't have a 'stage' we currently refer to them as.
@@Sakomi_Arorim I do feel that you can also make an argument in terms of accessibility, most times the "basic" stage of a Digimon is their Rookie stage, it's the "base" stage if you look at the anime, in most games when you start out, so it'd probably be confusing for newbies unfamiliar with the level-system if you just were to throw at them "what's your favorite level 3 Digimon" and you want to ask them about Rookies, because depending on how you count they might think you're asking about their favorite Ultimate or perhaps even Mega. Having the base-stage just not be level 1 would be at least a hurdle for newbies.
Going for Level 1-7 is probably the best unifying option. It would be easy to transition to, it is simple and easy to follow, and all regions use it. Trying to force the JP system on everyone else would not be a good way to unify it. It would actually just make it more confusing. The 1-7 Level system would also allow all regions to keep their own names, you just prefix it with the Number. i.e: Jellymon is my favourite level 3 rookie Witchmon is my favourite level 4 Adult Vespamon is my favourite level 5 Ultra Dinomon is my favourite level 6 Ultimate I'm not saying you'd have to add anything past the level number, but you could still use the old system in tandem with it and still have everyone else understand.
I think the bit system would work, but it doesn't need numerical values to differentiate power levels. It's just a stage of evolution, and power levels, even among the lower stages, vary wildly from digimon to digimon.
I'm so used to dub version because that's what I grew up on, so much so that I never really gave it a second thought on how convoluted the whole system really is when compared to the JP and card versions. And while I like the levelling system that card game uses since that is absolutely far easier to understand, it would be still be a bit confusing considering the games already use a levelling system that goes up to 99 per stage.
"this is lucemon falldown mode, he's middle aged" but for real though, names do need to be homogenized, the problem would be that it would definitely be sad to lose the american digimon names and if it was arbitrary that some became official and some scrapped it would be a mess (imagine if creepymon became the official name)
I'm surprisingly on board with the bit system, wow. The number thing could be a secondary thing, like the "weight" being measured in G, since I find numerical powerscaling to be extremely rigid and boring. I like how there's a clear sense of progression and little to no ambiguity. The numbered levels are okay, but again, they feel a bit too rigid? Too... generic? And it gives the impression that it should always keep going forever, and I like this idea that Ultimate is the last one except for super specific conditions. I for one actually loved the sense of super-premium-ness that Super Ultimate had, at least in fanon, instead of just going "OK Omegamon's an Ultra I guess. Uhh level 7 sure". Of course that comes with its own host of problems, but if they were going to do that I'd prefer just having nothing at all above Ultimate. Like the last time it was ever referenced in lore they were like "oh uh actually X Evolution is better than this old crap anyway" so was like... ok. fine. So yeah. I know Ultra/Level 7 isn't really a level in the strict sense, but this point I just prefer to stick to Watanabe's words. There's nothing above Ultimate, Super Ultimate is kind of an informal title given to some Digimon that are really powerful. Which again, I guess would count for Royal Knights and such. So, I guess it's alright. It's fine. Btw this last part isn't really me digisplaining you dw I'm just lowkey salty about SU being dismantled over several years and ending up as a bit of a nothingburger. I do think the concept had potential.
Tbh the german digimon dubs are a beast of their own. Aside from giving Tamers!Renamon a male voice, it also contained faithful translations of the japanese soundtrack, the likes of which just aren't made anymore when dubs are produced. Honestly Digimon is a worldbuilding mess at the best of times, and trying to be a TCG, video game series AND an anime/manga franchise doesn't help. Not to mention that "Mega" can mean anything from MarineAngemon to Omnimon/Susanoomon, the Burst Mode Variants and the Sovereigns. Many of which I'd class under a Mega+ Umbrella. This is before we consider outliers like Lucemon, who at Rookie puts most Megas to shame. That said, I think things are mitigated if we consider that Champion / Adult is the end of the line for most Digimon who aren't partnered. That said, I think Dragon Ball-eqsue powerlevels are something to be avoided. Those just too quickly scale way out of control and become meaningless. As much of a meme as "over 9000" has become. I also think that the level system should be somewhat dependent on the setting. The usual system would be what the Digimon use among the themselves, but a group like DATS would likely develop a unified system, classifying Digimon into classes 1-6+. Then again, more recent adaptations actually appear to dial down the whole "digital" part of the Digital Monsters.
I always viewed adult to perfect as, for example, greymon perfecting his battle prowess and becoming perfect in metalgreymon, but wargreymon is such a drastic jump from what would be greymon's perfect that it goes even further beyond to the ultimate my personal favorite would be a mix of jp and international terms; baby, in training, rookie, champion, perfect, ultimate, super ultimate/ultra although now I'm thinking of the bit terminology and I'm starting to love it!
Digimon stages/levels aren't helped by various digimon being multiple stages in various things. Like Whamon being both Champion and Ultimate. (Also, you can pry the English dub mon and stage names from my cold dead hands) I do agree that using numbers for the levels/stages would be best. Take drimogimon from Data Squad. It is a level/stage 4 that digivolves into a level 5 non-armor Digmon, as opposed to when Armadillomon uses the Digi-egg of Knowledge to armor digivolve into a level/stage 4-Armor Digmon. Also, I'm using level/stage because only doing level would make digimon story games weird. Like, this is a level 99 level 4 digimon just sounds confusing. Level 99 stage 4, however, makes much more sense.
The problem with a level system is that where it would work for the card game, shows and vpets, videogames create a problem, most of the more rpg digimon games have numeric levels on top of the actual evolution stage, and having a level 50 mon that's in the level 5 stage feels like it could get confusing.
I know you've touched upon the level system a whoooooole bunch, it's never not relevant, especially considering in the 90s who would have thought the Japanese and English names would be a topic of conversation, but I'm surprised it has taken you this long to deep dive in to this. I have a hard time too with this but largely because of the translations making me have to think about the inconsistencies in level states.
I agree with a lot of the points you brought up. I got into reading Liberator recently (still need to catch up a bit) and i really like how they handled stages a lot more than both the dub and sub names. Both versions will always be something that i like but the card games does a way better job of how stages are in power and connects to Digimon growing stronger every time in battle
I do think this would be way more convenient, but since Digimon games tend to like using levels and generally be RPGs, I would call them "ranks" instead of "levels". I think it is still intuitive that A Rank 4 is above A Rank 3, but in RPG games levels can then be A separate thing. I also personally think it sounds cooler and more grand to refer to them as "ranks", be fitting the feeling evolution is supposed to invoke. I also feel that it's probably the case that with age comes power (mostly in the form of data), and then power induces maturity. I feel like this was explain a lot of the jank. Older Digimon naturally have more power, and so their base form is of a higher rank, but if they get a big enough power boost, then they'll mature to the next rank, when that power leaves, they then revert to the previous rank. And of course, if they lose a lot of power, they may temporarily revert back to A rank below their default.
You've made some really good points here. I always found the English dub terms just perfect until I got older and noticed the JP terms are better but I always find myself still using the English terms. The English terms just roll off the tongue better lol BUT I like the bit/bytes terminology. I could see it being that.
Have you seen the art for Digimon Reboot? It's a concept that recontextualized some Mega Levels as Perfect, the final stage in that concept, while sticking true to the V-Pet style.
I always thought levels were a combination of age and data mass. Partner digimon can get a temporary influx of data from their tamer to digivolve when needed, but it doesn't last because it's a shortcut. Considering how digimon view time (from the last episode of ghost game) several human lifetimes are considered no time at all for them, so Tai's agumon wouldn't be able to naturally grow into a greymon in Tai's lifetime. For dedigivolving I figured injured digimon, with time to react at least, could revert to a form that needs less data to survive where they'd otherwise become a digi egg.
Xros actually has the explanation I like the best. Partner digimon are essencially elevated into their future selves temporarily. OmegaShoutmon and ZekeGreymon are elevated into their future selves at the peak of their power. Tactimon even states it took him hundreds of years to reach his state. We even see this in Hunters; with Shoutmon [King] being a bit bigger and having some natural armour and is considered a Champion rather than a Rookie. As for Ultimate; it happened because Mega didn't initially exist. It was added after "Ultimate" was dubbed; and Perfect... you know... perfection. [I'm pretty sure Mega wasn't a thing when the dub started]
Hi Karn, long time fan of your videos. Gotta say I wholly agree that the evolution levels across different languages and media are in a dire need of disambiguation, but respectfully I do not feel the same way about using any kind of number system to classify Digimon evolution levels. I think for me it mostly comes down to the feeling of discovery and wonder that I usually feel when learning about new digimon or while enjoying new digimon media. In particular when I was new to the series and discovered new heights of power for my digimon to reach deserving of an entirely new name for both them and their power level. If I had been introduced to mega/ultimate digimon as "Lvl 5" digimon I wouldn't have been particularly surprised to find out that level 6, 7, 8, or even 59 digimon exist because it's just a number. For me, it doesn't compare to the wonder of seeing digimon reach new heights and seeing the debate over whether a digimon of such a power level is deserving of a new classification with a name that has yet to be invented. Also I feel like the different stages having distinct names is pretty unique to Digimon and I wouldn't want to give it up but that's a more minor
I will say, in regards to the Japanese levels, that there's still some nuance lost with the fan-translated terms we've come to use. Good example being in regard to what you said about the "Perfect"-level. As you said, in english, "perfect" refers to completion, a "finality". However, the original Japanese term "Kanzen-tai", with "-tai" referring to "stage", can also just refer to "completion", or instead of plain "perfection" to something being "perfected", which would also go along very well with a lot of early Perfect-level Digimon being "modified" versions, MetalGreymon becoming a Cyborg, Numemon slipping inside of a teddybear, so on so forth, they've been experimented on and the results are artificially "perfected" versions of their Adult forms. In that sense "Ultimate" is also a valid translation/localization for this stage, just as much as perfect, it just sets different priorities than the straight translation. This can be even more complicated for the "Ultimate"-level as in "Kyukyoku-tai", since yes the translation for the term seems to be pretty much exclusively "ultimate", in this case the kanji the word is made up from can provide additional nuance, with the "kyu" referring to "research" and the "kyoku" in this phrase translating straight to "very", but it's also a particle for words that translate to "extreme" or that refer to a "zenith", which together would bring an image of "the height of research" or "researched to the extreme". Basically, while both of these names reasonably can refer to a final stage of sorts, neither of these have the same finality as either of their translations, and do not exactly imply that a Digimon of that stage couldn't develope further. In relation to this, there's actually a divide in the Japanese level-system, as both the Perfect and Ultimate level use the suffix "-tai" to denote to their stage. However, the Adult and prior levels use the suffix "-ki". The difference being that "-ki" refers to a period of time, basically denoting a stage in development, while "-tai" uses the kanji for "body", basically just referring to "form", ditching the age-aspect. In relation to this, I find it peculiar that Zeromaru in V-Tamer starts out as an Adult-level, so it can only continue on to Perfect and Ultimate. It basically has already reached the end of the age-related evolutionary lines, which would explain your point about why its further levels are only considered in terms of power-level instead of aging... because that's literally what the Perfect and Ultimate stages are, unlike the Child and Adult level, increases in power-level instead of part of the process of maturing. I do however agree that the Level-system used in the cardgame is generally easier to work around, although I feel having it based on "powerlevels" is a slippery slope that we already have with considering the current stages as "powerlevels". Biggest culprit of course being Lucemon ("Child"), wrecking several high-level Digimon on debut. The example with Armors is also a bit off because while they're generally treated as Lvl.4s, even disregarding cases like Magnamon, their actual powerlevel can drastically vary, due to factors like compatability of a Digimon with a Digimental, but also with Digimentals being remnant data of Digimon that represented the values of a certain Crest, I'd imagine the power of a Digimental is also determined by what kind of Digimon they came from. Another issue would be Hybrids, both Human and Beast Spirits are put at Lvl.4 just like Armors iirc, while their Double Spirits are considered Lvl.5, however lorewise both the Human and Beast Spirits can rival Perfect and even Ultimate-level Digimon, and Double Spirits are suppedly even above the Ultimate-level/Lvl.6 Ancient Warriors, but the main reason they're Lvl.5 is so KaiserGreymon and MagnaGarurumon can follow them as Lvl.6 and then Susanoomon as Lvl.7, basically they're forced into their respective level not to correlate with their powerlevel but so their evolutionary scale fits within the level-system. So... it's a bit imperfect in that regard, however if we just scrap the powerlevel-aspect of it and just look at it as steps of evolution the cardgame-system works perfectly. Edit: Something else about the cardgame-levels though is that at least in theory, many Lvl.7 Digimon should also theoretically be able to exist as Lvl.6, like in the case of Rafflesiemon, it can be the Jogress between Rosemon and Lotusmon, in which case it should definitely be a Lvl.7 stage-wise, but it can also naturally evolve from a Lvl.5 in which case it would follow that it's a Lvl.6, so... yeah, I feel the cardgame-stages work besser to signify at which step of its evolution a Digimon is rather than as actual powerlevels. My main problem with the bit-system would be, aside from layering a powerlevel-system on top of it as you suggested (something that imo would only really be necessary in a videogame-format, since we also know there are stronger and weaker members of each species depending on training), is the existence of Examon, implying that "Exa" is an incredible size in the Digital World and that something like bit- and byte-size in the Digital World also refer to the size of something in general, not the density of data as the term for an evolutionary stage would suggest. Basically, it feels already a bit too late to use the term as such.
It's probably worth pointing out one modern manga seems to agree with you. Digimon Paradox uses a numerical level system (though points out the normal terms too). The writer pointed out in Twitter that it's because he realizes the Baby, Child, etc. system is one the fans know but it's also not obvious to a brand new fan, while numbers are extremely easy to understand.
Like your change to the Level system, even though personally i just take Ultimate out and use the japanese Baby (NOT with Baby II) and Perfect to refer to those Levels, along with the Ultra to refer to those Level 7 digimon. My personal Level System that i use is: Baby > In-Training > Rookie > Champion > Perfect > Mega > Ultra.
I really do think the data levels should have always been how it was done, the more data they have the higher their power. One of them already been called mega is annoying but from bit to Exabyte level works well and would make for some fun power scaling and how the kids working with the digimon works, their bond creates data that is used to make the digimon evolve
The best thing about the level system is that it can work with most of the other systems as well. The level system is just a number and then the various dubs and stuff can have their own names associated with each number but the numbers can always stay consistent.
A Bit system would be a super fun game mechanic! Like you have your 1 Bit Botamon, and when it reaches 10Bits it evolves, maybe some Digimon need higher Bit levels and have better stats etc
I was under the impression that the JP level terms change from age to power level at perfect because the method of reaching that level is different. Most Digimon can get to the adult level by just aging, but going beyond that requires a great amount of training. Maybe this is what Karn meant by the age stuff just being in the V-pet and World games, since the methods of evolution are so different in the anime and other games.
Yea I completely agree about the lv system from the tcg I've had so many times where I'm having conversations and we get confused between ultimate and ultimate and saying lv6 or lv5 has made that way easier
i like the number system idea smooths over any possible confusion even some that has never played or watched digimon can tell ruffly how strong a digimon is compared to another without having it explained
In the portuguese dub, we used the japanese version during the first two seasons, however, from Tamers onward, it was changed to be more akin to the english version, but with new names for Ultimate and Mega. So here the levels are, directly translated: Principiante, meaning Rookie Campeão, meaning Champion Mega Campeão, meaning Mega-Champion (The Ultimate/Perfect) Hiper Campeão, meaning Hyper-Champion (The Mega/Ultimate)
I think I'm inclined to agree - the Level system from the card game definitely makes the most sense, both for organization and readability. However, there's a tangible loss of that late-90s cool factor that comes from having named stages. I think it could be much easier to simply remove the "Ultimate" name from the equation, and have Lv5 and Lv6 Digimon universally be named Perfect and Mega respectively. Japan and the West can still have their own names for Lv3 and Lv4, because there's no way to confuse those. Also, I think "why not both?" is definitely something that applies here. Regarding the outdatedness of Digimon stages representing age - I've said this before in other comments, but I've always been of the mind that aging through each level is a Digimon's natural way of growing. It's the circumstance of having a Tamer with a Digivice that allows them to go back and forth at will, skip stages, etc. The potential for growth from the Tamer is being converted into data by the Digivice, enabling it to cheat the natural evolution process. I'd be interested to see some Digimon media contradict that, but thus far it feels like a pretty bulletproof theory
I actually think perfect level is really interesting. I think turning into a ultimate level Digimon means breaking the limits and becoming something even beyond the perfection. Even though we see the ultimate/mega level as common, most Digimon in the environment are childs and adults. A perfect being is a really rare sight. The ultimate level is just elusive, almost like a legend in some midias. For most, adult is the farthest you can go, perfection is the best something can be, and ultimates are just not even considered or thought about. They are above, divine, a myth.
The in-lore reason of why they used "Perfect" it's because in the main universe, the one where VPets come from, the researchers in charge of studying Digimon noticed they wouldn't evolve pass that stage so they denominated it "Perfect" because that's what they concluded, but later they discovered Megas/Ultimates but the terminology was already in place so it sticked around.
Not that I think the idea is better or that it should happen, but what about a naming convention more relevant to computing: Egg >> Recycle stage - you literally recycle the digimon to an egg Baby >> Fresh/Re-start stage - a fresh restart with cleared out RAM In-Training >> Boot up stage - the operating system is loading in/being requested Rookie >> Operator/OS stage - software is up and loaded, ready to work Champion >> Update/Upgrade stage - we have added something onto our baseline OS Ultimate >> MAX stage - or Max Resources, we're at a software limit Mega >> Overclock stage - we've altered our hardware to go beyond the recommended limits
i'm a fan of either the TCG levels or the bit system since its more in line with the digital nature of the show. or combining it so have the level represent power but the bit representing stage of assistance. with digivlution and digivolution being power transfers.
I love the Byte idea, I think it really streamlines the stages and is perfect for a series about digital monsters. Can't believe nobody thought about this sooner!
I agree with giving the stages of digivolution a numerical term as in the card game, it makes it way easier to understand. However, when that translates to video games that use any form of growth or exp system, i.e. "levels"; whe could have the stages called "ranks" or something, but they would function basically the same. e.g. In x game, my agumon is a rank 2 for it being an agumon, but is level 20 cuz I like to farm idk haha
I always thought that age was sort of the baseline for most digimon but when they have a human partner they are able to push through there age limitation and are empowered by the bond between human and digimon and strength/power level they digivolve beyond their "age level". So like a combo of both. I do like the naming ideas you presented though.
Yeah I thought that too but then when we look at games like Digimon World Next Order they have human partners with Digivices... so why does that have a pure age system but Adventure doesn't? I love the "anything goes" vibes but unity gets hard there haha
The level system reminds me a lot of Street Fighter, where three of the bosses in Street Fighter 2 had their names switched around when they came to America, so there was potential confusion when JP player spoke to NA players about how "Bison", "Balrog" or "Vega" were. So the FGC adopted the generic names "Dictator", "Boxer", and "Claw" so everyone knew who was who. JP Digimon fans and NA Digimon fans might get confused on what stage Ultimate is, so the neutral and generic "level X" nomenclature would help a lot. It's been proven to work with Street Fighter, so I don't see why it can't here. I think using bits/bytes as the level terms is quite charming, for sure. I've thought about it before. I do think it's annoying that both bit and byte are already kind of being used in the Digimon universe, so like using bit for the smallest level still hits the problem where a bit is also the unit of currency (it's like if we called newborn babies "pennies"), and I think just glazing over it like "whatever they'll figure it out" defeats the point of using distinct language to be more clear. That said, the higher levels of data sizes have some really cool names (mega, giga, tera, zeta, etc. They start sounding like Final Fantasy spell names), so I think it's absolutely something that should be on the table as an option. Also I'm not going to lie, if you made me choose solely between JP and NA level designations, I'm going to pick NA every time. I've never been a fan of how disconnected the JP terms are; they start off as age designations and then suddenly shift into Big Cool Words. Both "Perfect" _and_ "Ultimate" are supposed to refer to a final level because of the fact, as you said, that "Perfect" was originally the final stage and then they added Ultimate, so now it just feels like there's two final stages. It really sours me because the remnant of Perfect being called that just calls to attention how far removed we are from the early days, if that makes any sense. It's weird to me that the levels have names that are like "this is the final point" and then "no just kidding THIS is the final point", especially because _even Ultimate isn't the final point anymore._ It just feels like it aged poorly in a weird way. I think the NA terms are a little more cohesive, and also it doesn't pigeonhole every single level 3 Digimon into being a "child", which has always bothered me. I think the level 3s can vary widely in terms of their character and mental acuity and I don't like all of them being painted as just kids, even if they do tend to be cute and less experienced, and even in the anime we see "Child-level" Digimon with wrinkles and facial hair to show that _they are older than their peers!_ So they're an old Child? The elder of your tribe is a Child with a moustache? It's ridiculous. I think the terms the NA used which are more "combat-appropriate", if that makes sense, helps it feels a little less tied to age, even if I do really appreciate the vpet side of Digimon and raising your Digimon from a baby to a big monster. I just think the NA terms are more widely applicable while the JP terms are inconsistent and largely specific to just the vpet. But either way, if I was in charge, I would either just go with the level designation or work with the data-size idea suggested to play into the Digital Monster theming, which I think is super important.
For a while there, some things translated "Kanzentai" as "Complete (body)" rather than "Perfect (body)," which captures the idea of it being the highest stage but being able to be exceeded much better I think. And yeah the whole system is kind of jank, because levels 1-4 are basic maturation, but beyond that they're refinements of power due to experience/training
I agree that it’s confusing the way digimon names things especially with the dubs making it even more difficult. I do take pride in understanding it though!
In my own Digimon-like project, the stages are called Drowsing (latent power), Awoken (unlocked power), Advanced (trained power), Mastered (refined power), and Perfected (maximum potential power).
alternate I have in my pitch for a reboot Hatchling ->Baby->Child->Adult->Perfect->Ultimate->Super Ultimate Mode Changes Armor, and spirits are Adult+, Perfect+, and Ultimate+ depending on what it is This keeps the power/age system, cleans up the language, makes the odd non-levels make sense in system, and most importantly keeps with the lore.
9:37 Examon would be fun, Ik he is named after Exabyte not Exabit, his level Would be Zettabit but you could have him as protagonist partner in 1 season, and when fighting people they'd think he is named after Lv 6. instead of Lv 7. :D
@Karn_EX here's an idea: Fresh (baby), Trainee (in-training), Student (rookie), Expert (Champion), Master (ultimate), Sensei/Teacher (Mega). This is based somewhat on Martial Arts ranks.
Just to leave the information for those who may be interested: here in Brazil, when Adventure was shown on open TV, they translated Champion/Ultimate/Mega as Adulto (Adult)/Perfeito (Perfect)/Extremo (Extreme). Furthermore, instead of Level, the word Fase (Phase or Stage in english) was used. Personally, i prefer using this term in place of Level even today to avoid confusion with experience level.
In the Arabic dub of Digimon adventure digimons use the card games level but in trainings 2 are level one and rookies are level 2 and so goes on till they become megas which they are level five but they stop doing that in adventure 2
In Spanish (from Spain) we got two different evolution stages. Originally, when we got the Spanish Dub for Adventure, we used a mix of the Japanese one and the English one, and the stage was referred as their 'body': - Bebé (Baby) - Entrenamiento (In-Training) - Principiante (Rookie) - Maduro (lit. Mature, close to Adult) - Perfecto (Perfect) - Supremo (lit. Supreme, close to Ultimate). But from Zero Two and onwards, we got our own system that changed on the Adult stage (and we called their stage their 'level'). Maduro -> Campeón (Champion) Perfecto -> *Mega* Campeón (lit. Mega-Champion...which you can see is confusing with the English dub). Supremo -> Híper Campeón (lit. Hyper Champion.)
Very good video, and I like both of your naming ideas. And, your points are valid. To be fair to the dub, at least, they call out Mega surpassing Ultimate. I'm fairly sure the quote was "He's found some way to evolve further. He's now some kind of Mega Ultimate form! T-That's Cheating!"
I feel like if in the dub they had the switched mega and ultimate it would make so much sense especially going into the super ultimate level, ultra is the only dub level name that feels off to me
HAPPY SUNDAY, NOTIFICATION SQUAD! Also wanna add something here:
In RPG situations where Digimon level up from level 1 to level 99, we'd probably refer to their evolution level as their "Stage". So Greymon would be a Stage 4 at Level 50, for example
With this 100%
@@Karn_EX I see I was Manny referring to the card lv system not the RPG one
I don't know maybe
Honestly just replace Perfect & Ultimate/ Ultimate & Mega with Super & Ultra then replace the original Ultra level with Hyper.
Or keep the original Ultra level but replace the Ultra that I put after Super with Hyper.
This way you have fighting game’s combo titles as the levels.
Baby, In-Training, Rookie, Champion, Super, Hyper, “Ultra”.
You could also add a Rank system next to those levels to show which Digimon is naturally stronger.
Ex.) Agumon: Level - Rookie; Rank 1.
Lucemon: Level - Rookie; Rank 5.
The problem with the “Age” thing is that it has been established that Natural Digimon (Digimon that were never born within a V-Pet) do not age at all. So it never had any weight on Digimon as a whole.
According to Digimon Profile, most Digimon never evolve past the Adult stage, hence why it's considered their full maturation. Perfect levels are supposed to evolve from only the strongest Adult levels and Ultimates are supposed to be Perfect levels that survived harsh battles and went further beyond their limits. So yeah not every Digimon is meant to fully evolve in the Digital World which is why the classic level system works a little better when you look at it like that.
I'd be fine with that, but the problem is that most Digimon media doesn't actually play by those rules. We see Ultimates/Perfect milling around in anime, manga games etc all the time, not even to mention the number of Ultimates that are no stronger than Champion/Adult level.
You could claim that the conceptual lore of Digimon holds precedence over what's shown....but that's not how media and lore works. Claims of feats are worthless, only what is shown matters. So the fact we see Ultimates everywhere no stronger than any other completely negates that baseline design rule.
To me, if you have a stage called “perfect”, it should BE THE FINAL STAGE. Even from a lore perspective, perfect should be when they are at their peak, post limit breaking
@@Rhinox-89 You can have a truly perfect handsaw and still want to keep a chainsaw around for some sawing duties. Perfection is contextual, so a creature perfected for their needs can still be presented with a challenge that would require them to evolve to overcome it. If perfection wasn't contextual in the digimon world, then there'd only be one perfect-level digimon because anything different from the absolute perfect digimon necessarily cannot be perfect.
@DianaTheLance
You're absolutely correct about the true nature of perfection. Although that still raises the question of how Perfect is a stage of development at all, since nearly 0 Ultimate/Perfect Digimon actually fill their niche or role ideally.
Andromon is a perfect (heh) example. He's inherently incomplete and limited, compared even to other Cyborg Digimon. Yet he's one of the first in the Perfect tier.
I think the point Perfect shouldn't be used as a measure for "living" things stands, as it simply becomes confusing at best.
@@clayxros576If you read the japanese meaning, Perfect was not meant as a stage development, but an enhancement. This is why child and adult stage are called 成長期 and 成熟期. The 期 means phase, but perfect is called 完全体 (kanzentai), the 体 means body, hence perfect body instead of perfect phase. Adult is the final phase of a digimon's growth, the rest is just enhancement towards its physical form. Like how greymon evolves into metalgreymon as a "perfection" of its body enhancement using mechanical parts
There's another side to the Level names in Japanese that is a bit missing since it's rarely mentioned. While it's true that from Baby to Adult they are named after stages of growth, it's also the case because, in Japanese, the names have a suffix "期" (ki) that means "time/period/age". So literally the stages are called "Baby-period", "Child-period", and "Adult-period" (Although I also like to use Baby-stage, Child-stage, Adult-stage).
For Perfect, Ultimate, Armor, and Hybrid the suffix changes, it becomes "体" (Tai) which means "Body". So literally the names are "Perfect-body", "Ultimate-body", "Armor-body" and "Hybrid-body".
In Japanese the terms are divided into "growth stages" because in lore Digimon evolution from Baby up to Adult levels is thought as natural and even very low training can already make Digimon reach such states just by growing older (Although reaching Adult-stage without training will result in the Numemon-types normally).
"Perfect-bodies" were originally a result of Digimon literally changing their bodies to become something more due to the result of intense training and battles, it's why originally the Digimon would only evolve into those stages after various battles. And of course, the original Perfect Digimon were most of them all artificial creations or mutations that were outside of natural growth, such as Metalized Digimon, Stuffed Toy Digimon, Mutated Digimon, etc.
Although more natural-like Perfect were made, this was more or less the same intent and this followed up with Ultimates, as even in-lore most Digimon are considered to naturally reach the Adult level, while Perfects and Ultimates are higher in number as individuals, but not as populations.
About Perfect into Ultimates, the intent is that while Perfects represents the "highest" state normally seen for Digimon, Ultimates is a state in which they "break their limits" reaching a state that is akin to godhood (Although only a few media represent the great difference Ultimates are supposed to represent, like V-Tamer, Savers, and more recently Seekers which they constantly making comparisons between Ultimates and gods).
Of course, Armors and Hybrids also follow the notion of Digimon reaching a new state from means other than just growing, and even training, as it uses the Digimentals and Spirits to literally change their bodies in a new state that is represented by the equipped data.
As I really enjoy looking over the original settings and the various attempts at making sense of them, I prefer the Japanese terminology because of that (In special I find it funny that Adults are called Champions in the dub terminology when in the original V-pets, you didn't need to actually fight to become that level, only battle training with your clone was enough, the only need to win actual fights was for Perfects, so if they wanted to still make sense in the original material, they should call Perfects as Champions, In-training also would fit more either Child or Adults IMO).
Of course, originally a few Japanese resources did call what is now Perfect as Ultimates, but it was only a book series IIRC, and the moment they reached the Pendulum series they changed to what it's now.
Also, while most of the Japanese level names translate unambiguously, the exception is "Kanzentai", Level 5; Kanzen can be translated as "perfect", but it can also mean "complete", which arguably makes more sense.
@@NovaSaber Yes, funny enough in my Country they adapted the 5th level as "Complete stage" during the Digimon Data Squad era.
@DigitalWorldArchive @NovaSaber you two already posted both parts of what I wanted to say here. Yes, the "Perfect" and "Ultimate" names from Japan were accurate translations but they were also not the only way to translate it, as they can be (maybe more accurately?) translated as "Complete-Body" and "Higher-Body", indicating some evolution that was obtained by something other than natural growth or that it's not something everyone is going to become. This is something that got lost when Digimon came to America with most levels now having more combat or power related naming.
The level system does make more sense and make it easier, though it does make it easier for power creep.... People will always then want level 8s and 9s etc. Mode changes and Jogres have been Digimons way to escalate without making a whole new level. But your idea is the best so far.
It's only a matter of time until we get a Level 8 in the series anyway. For a very long time Level 7/Ultra/Super-Ultimate was only a thing in the V-Tamer manga even though a lot of the Digimon that are currently classified as Level 7 existed as "Beyond Ultimate" yet were just regarded as more powerful Ultimate forms. Eventually they decided that they needed another Level beyond Ultimate and adopted Super-Ultimate/Level 7 for that.
We already have degrees of power among the Level 7s. Eventually there will be enough of them and enough variation that they'll decide to elevate them to a "new" level of power. Thus Level 8.
@@canisblack Zeed Milleniumon's been around since 2001, and I could very easily see an argument that he should be Level 8.
@@adeluxe9764 YES, BU HE'S ALSO POINTLESS NOWADAYS THANKS TO OTHER MONS BEING STRONGER THAN HIM
@@adeluxe9764ZeedMillenniumon is in BT19 as a Level 7 btw, as is Alter-B, Jesmon GX, Ogudomon, and other super duper Ultra/Super Ultimate Digimon.
V-pets have been using the levelling system for decades now, even using Level 6+ and 6++ for certain Digimon, one of those 6++ Digimon is Jesmon GX who is a Level 7 in the card game. They’ve definitely capped things there, especially since the card game still labels the Level 7 cards as Ultimate/Mega instead of Ultra or Super Ultimate.
I like that level system idea: Bit, Byte, Kilo, Mega, Giga, Tera, Peta, etc.
I like it a lot but i know for a fact if they did that mega would be confusing as hell for a lot of people
Whenever I see "Perfect" before "Ultimate"
"How can you be semi-perfect? You're either perfect of not me there's no gray area" - Vegeta DBZA
😂
The first Wargreymon evolving among his peers:
M is for Mega, what the power that I've gained is
E is for Exclusion, your design the anime changes
G for Generalization, as the peak of any line
A is for the Ass I'm bout to kick, now that you're all out of time~
As a Southern boy the idea of "Bits" representing the levels was funnier in my head.
Baby - Itty Bit
In-Training - Tiny Bit
Rookie - Lil Bit
Champion - Big Bit
Ultimate - Bigger Bit
Mega - Lotta Bit
Ultra - Too Much Bit
@@homebredpacman9715 adding -ch to each of these made reading it SO MUCH funnier 😂😂😂
@@FloWoodEnT123 my reaction when my digimon turns into the wrong thing in a World game....
fuck you blue meramon
Very fun!
😂😂😂😂😂
I agree the Level system in the card game is good and really easy to understand for everyone...though they might wanna call them something other than "Level", because if you throw that into another Digimon RPG, you'll have "Oh I got a Level 24 Level 5 Digimon" which is once again, confusing lol. Maybe call them "Ranks"?
Rank is solid.
What about stage?
4:33 The Mega level didn't exist yet when they named the fifth stage Ultimate.
Ah my bad. I had read the JP team was already working on vpets with Mega levels by the time Digimon made it to US markets
@@Karn_EX While most Digimon media didn't make it to the west until 1999, the original V-Pet was actually localized almost immediately after it was released in Japan, still in 1997.
Understandable mistake though.
@@NobodyBasically Yes, Digimon first came into US back in 1998 with the digital monster vpet, that's where the stage naming came from. Many people didn't recognize digimon's existence until the anime aired
My only issue is calling them level 1-7 just kind of sounds too boring for an anime. It works well in a card game sense for making things easy to understand though. A "mega level digimon" just sounds more badass then "a level 7 digimon". Dragon ball ran into that same issue kind of with power levels on the scouters since it was hard to really envision how strong someone with a power level of 1,000 was.
Yeah I can definitely see that
The first 4 anime are my exposure to Digimon. I've always seen it as a combination of "age" as far as maturation, experience, and achieving natural potential, then transitioning into "getting superpowers." Going from baby to child to adult is easily understood. Going from Adult/Champion to Perfect/Ultimate isn't like reaching middle age: it's more like you've achieved the absolute peak of your natural potential. Not every person or Digimon can do that, which is why it's "Perfect"/"Ultimate" for those who can. The Levels above that are about transcending to the state of demigods and outright gods, which only a rare few can ever experience. Partner Digimon are exceptions to the normal rules because their bonds with Digidestined grant them extraordinary powers, but only when an emotionally charged crisis catalyzes them to rise to meet a threat.
Yeah exactly this
I like the levels/stages being based on amount of data they take up. So bits and bytes, still get to leave megas at megabytes, then above that giga, and terabytes.
This was the idea I commented to Karn on two of his videos. Guess he finally took notice.
I remember it being Fresh > In-Traininh > Rookie > Champion > Ultimate > Mega
Personally, if this was me tasked with localizing Digimon in the 90's I'd have continued with the sports references all the way through --
Child,
In-Training,
Rookie,
Veteran,
Champion,
Legend.
I think an American audience in particularly would know intuitively which evolution falls where.
I like those!
I like those too. Although instead of Veteran, maybe Expert instead.
THose are pretty good, but I think you would need a different term instead of child. Novice maybe?
@LeoBeastmode, yeah, especially when a veteran is also a term for a retired soldier
Love these. They reflect the best aspects the dub terms while keeping a through line of the ideas. I would still keep baby for the first stage and change Champion with Veteran. How I see it, it would be in terms of fighting a rookie who starting out fighting, then a champion someone who won a few battles and one championship, then Veteran someone who can teach the next gen, and then Legend someone who is so strong they will live on forever. But that's just me.
The way I look at it, only the first 4 levels indicate age (in many vpets, adult or lv4 is guaranteed to be achieved with the simple passage of time). Once a digimon reaches maturity (adult level), it can undergo special training or be exposed to special conditions to surpass the average power level of a digimon and become “perfect”. After that, even fewer of those perfect digimon train so hard and are so outstanding that they surpass the upper limit of their strength and evolve even further to ultimate. Ultimate would be a digimon’s equivalent to being superhuman I guess while perfect would more so be like being a master at something but not demonstrating any skills that surpass whats naturally possible.
That's basically what the Japanese naming-system implies.
the first 4 levels use the suffix "-ki" to denote their stage, with the kanji referring to a "period of time", a state of maturity.
meanwhile Perfect and Ultimate use the suffix "-tai", using the kanji for "body" and thus probably referring specifically to a "form" or the state that the body is in.
Baby, toddler, student, employed, leader, boss and mastered.
That's how mafia works
I support this change, let’s get a petition going
*to the card number system, I commented too soon 🤪
I definitely agree with using the Level/Stage system. I also really like the “bit” idea, but as you said, that could get complicated to distinguish. It would be nice though to refer to Gatomon as Stage 4 Lv. 30 without the tail ring and then Stage 4 Lv. 50 with it.
An addition to the bit idea. Instead of a number, have a term, like young, mature, senior and elder, to denote the time a digimon spent on their level.
A Elder Giga (champion) level beating a Young Tera (ultimate) level is something that not only could happen, its the expected.
What’s really funny is just the other day I was working out lines for a digimon dnd campaign with some friends and one asked “wait, Omnimon is a mega level?” So yeah you’ve definitely got a point, I while heartedly agree with the final verdict
My fiancée and I began playing the TGC some time ago, and she wanted to know more about digimon, so we went ahead to the adventure anime.
Whenever a new digimon appears, we talk about it following the TCG's level system. It's way easier and really shows the gravity of some encounters, like the early fight with Andromon.
Champion, Ultimate and Perfect don't really say a lot to someone who isn't initiated. Level 4, 5 and 6 are way easier to understand
Personally I view how it goes as power based but akin to Dragons in D&D: Digimon gradually grow stronger with age automatically and as they get older, they'll eventually reach a threshold where they digivolve to that next stage, thus the association of each level with age and why the higher up you go, the more rare each level is until you get to Mega, where the super old Digimon who run the show more or less reside. Being a Digimon Partner meanwhile is sort of akin to getting temporary power ups to let them reach their higher stages quicker but only temporarily vs the more Permanent state of naturally occurring Higher Stage Digimon. This is how I viewed it anyway, I could be quite wrong
This actually makes a ton of sense considering that many digimon gets their own (pardon the expression) pokedex entry. You hear tales of the struggles, triumphs, or just general experiences/happenstance each went through to obtain that level of power, weaponry, or armor. This is not how we generally see things happen in virtually any digimon media you call on a digivice you do a thing depending on the era and digivolution just kinda happens. What if those entries describe how a digimon would naturally undergo that level of growth.
@@triforceofcourage100 It makes more sense for it to be a natural byproduct of them growing stronger with age as they fight, train, grow, etceteras. Thus when you see a Partner Digimon or a Digimon otherwise enhanced by a non-standard means, those forms are usually temporary and/or exceptions to the rule. In some cases ya might get Digimon who can even freely go between their highest form and those lower on their Digivolution line
Yep, this exactly
@@wulfryanseptim8592 thanks. It always made sense to me with how Stronger Digimon were usually presented as Older while Partner Digimon were the exception due to having a partner, letting them Digivolve within minutes of first hatching, retain memories between reincarnations, and generally being quite distinct from normal Digimon.
I mean the Bit system is basically what Cybersleuth did. You have the various stages and then also lv 1 to lv 99 for every stage. So you could easily beat low level Megas with high level Champions for example.
I really like that Ultimate comes after Perfect (and Mega after Ultimate in English) because it implies that they've gone beyond what would typically be seen as the peak for that Digimon species because you as its partner have taken such good care of it. It's a reward for your hard work
Yeah that was good initially but as I said we now have Super-Ultimate/Ultra which goes beyond again, kinda reduces Mega as being the going beyond stage
This Digimon is level 4. It is free to drink alcohol!
I agree with the Bit System. Having a Megabit digimon digivolve into a Gigabit digimon would be awesome. Also I’m not quite sure if after mega giga is the next one. Having those levels would definitely help me 😅 I know wich digimon level comes after one. I’m not sure about the bits. Having both being the same would help me remeber
Imo age matters to some extent. Yes, agumon can evolve from koromon to wargreymon freely and vice versa, but that is thanks to the digivice. Normal digimons don't digivolve and devolve freely short term
I think evolving from baby to adult is age based, naturally maturing. However beyond that, it requires training, absorbing data, or powering up any other way
That is pretty much why tailmon's default stage is adult. While the others are sent to be eggs, she spent all that time being alive and maturing naturally
The numerical level system makes a lot of sense but I really like the "bit" idea just for how it sounds. Referring to them as "terabit" and "exabit" level feels so on-brand
Indeed if at some point they actually want too do that i wouldn't mind seeing that being the future naming Convention
Also, since we’re talking about computers, it’s actually 1024 to go up the next one so you theoretically could have a 1000 exhibit Digimon, who hasn’t gone over to Yotabits because you need another 24 exabits
0:53 Random and curious comment:
I'm from Brazil and I remember that here we basically used the US system with the translated names, with one exception: Bebê (baby), Em treinamento (In-training), Novato (Rookie), Campeão (Champion), *Perfeito (Perfect)* and Mega.
Instead of Ultimate, we used Perfect, the term used in the Japanese version for the same level.
@@prof.thiagoalmeida1226 that is true
Probably either because ultimate is a kind of a tricky word to translate or because delay in production for the arrival of English terminology
@@chicabu67 This makes sense both ways. It could even have been a bit of both. Ultimate was a difficult term to translate, and a possible delay in international translation would have meant not being able to use other languages (French or Spanish) as a basis for comparison, so it was easier to go with the Japanese translation. Who knows?
Levels also make things much easier for newcomers, which I think may have been part of BN's reasoning for using them in the card game. Someone who knows nothing about Digimon might get tripped up by having to remember even more terms, but numbers are self-explanatory.
I must be insane but I thought it was confirmed somewhere that the levels and age system where one and the same up from Fresh to Adult as that was is Digimon's natural lifecycle as they absorb data from eating and experiencing life with them naturally dying/reincarnating after a certain amount of time in the Adult unless they push themselves further with things like Perfect/Ultimate and Ultimate/Mega being the result of training or external circumstances like items, rituals, prophecies and whatnot and the reason why partner digimon revert is because the bond with a tamer allows them to gain a large influx of data, breaking their limits and aging themselves up temporarily which is why they de-digivolve usually back to the base state they were naturally at or in the cases where they basically exceed revert back to a baby from mega it's actually them skipping certain aspects of the reincarnation cycle
P.S. the last thing is just speculation going off of the shows and my personal theory on why they go baby mode after using up to much data but not die
It is the same, that's what I talk about in the video haha
But no stuff like the anime just skips the aging thing as evolution is much more free with warps, DNA etc etc while it may still TECHNICALLY be a factor it's incredibly sidelined in comparison to vpets/World games.
I always thought the evolution of Digimon as occupations because it's nonlinear and the Digimon's experience. Give Impmon a toy gun, it becomes part of its identity in later levels. Treat Agumon like shit, it becomes dark, show Gilmon love it becomes Gallant. So on and so forth.
so if we were to lean into it more we could go
Baby> Training> Rookie> Junior> Senior> Master> Legend with DNA, fusion, Armor, and any other subtype as prefixes for them.
It kinda speaks for itself. It keeps age, it keeps power levels, it translates well, all cultures understand the pecking order of society. When you get fired, quit, or are off duty you revert to a stage your comfortable with.
I always done this to keep my Digimon power levels straight in my head and thought I'd share.
Baby -> level -2
In training -> level -1
Rookie -> level 0
Champian -> level 1
Ultimate -> level 2
Mega -> level 3
Rookie should 1 since they can actually fight.
I do not understand why you choose to use negative levels (if you feel up for doing so, please explain your thought process/reasoning)
As to me it makes more sense that a Digimon egg would be seen as a level 0 so any stage above that would logically require positive numbers
@@Sakomi_Arorim probably because Digimon can’t really fight at the previous levels
@@Sakomi_Arorim I'd probably just try to look at logic. Just like @pn2294 said, it's likely because the previous stages cannot fight effectively. Eggs are just eggs because they don't have a 'stage' we currently refer to them as.
@@Sakomi_Arorim I do feel that you can also make an argument in terms of accessibility, most times the "basic" stage of a Digimon is their Rookie stage, it's the "base" stage if you look at the anime, in most games when you start out, so it'd probably be confusing for newbies unfamiliar with the level-system if you just were to throw at them "what's your favorite level 3 Digimon" and you want to ask them about Rookies, because depending on how you count they might think you're asking about their favorite Ultimate or perhaps even Mega. Having the base-stage just not be level 1 would be at least a hurdle for newbies.
Happy Sunday Karn EX!
And let's improve the Leveling system.
Going for Level 1-7 is probably the best unifying option. It would be easy to transition to, it is simple and easy to follow, and all regions use it. Trying to force the JP system on everyone else would not be a good way to unify it. It would actually just make it more confusing.
The 1-7 Level system would also allow all regions to keep their own names, you just prefix it with the Number.
i.e:
Jellymon is my favourite level 3 rookie
Witchmon is my favourite level 4 Adult
Vespamon is my favourite level 5 Ultra
Dinomon is my favourite level 6 Ultimate
I'm not saying you'd have to add anything past the level number, but you could still use the old system in tandem with it and still have everyone else understand.
I think the bit system would work, but it doesn't need numerical values to differentiate power levels. It's just a stage of evolution, and power levels, even among the lower stages, vary wildly from digimon to digimon.
I'm so used to dub version because that's what I grew up on, so much so that I never really gave it a second thought on how convoluted the whole system really is when compared to the JP and card versions.
And while I like the levelling system that card game uses since that is absolutely far easier to understand, it would be still be a bit confusing considering the games already use a levelling system that goes up to 99 per stage.
"this is lucemon falldown mode, he's middle aged" but for real though, names do need to be homogenized, the problem would be that it would definitely be sad to lose the american digimon names and if it was arbitrary that some became official and some scrapped it would be a mess (imagine if creepymon became the official name)
I'm surprisingly on board with the bit system, wow. The number thing could be a secondary thing, like the "weight" being measured in G, since I find numerical powerscaling to be extremely rigid and boring. I like how there's a clear sense of progression and little to no ambiguity. The numbered levels are okay, but again, they feel a bit too rigid? Too... generic? And it gives the impression that it should always keep going forever, and I like this idea that Ultimate is the last one except for super specific conditions. I for one actually loved the sense of super-premium-ness that Super Ultimate had, at least in fanon, instead of just going "OK Omegamon's an Ultra I guess. Uhh level 7 sure". Of course that comes with its own host of problems, but if they were going to do that I'd prefer just having nothing at all above Ultimate. Like the last time it was ever referenced in lore they were like "oh uh actually X Evolution is better than this old crap anyway" so was like... ok. fine.
So yeah. I know Ultra/Level 7 isn't really a level in the strict sense, but this point I just prefer to stick to Watanabe's words. There's nothing above Ultimate, Super Ultimate is kind of an informal title given to some Digimon that are really powerful. Which again, I guess would count for Royal Knights and such. So, I guess it's alright. It's fine.
Btw this last part isn't really me digisplaining you dw I'm just lowkey salty about SU being dismantled over several years and ending up as a bit of a nothingburger. I do think the concept had potential.
Tbh the german digimon dubs are a beast of their own. Aside from giving Tamers!Renamon a male voice, it also contained faithful translations of the japanese soundtrack, the likes of which just aren't made anymore when dubs are produced.
Honestly Digimon is a worldbuilding mess at the best of times, and trying to be a TCG, video game series AND an anime/manga franchise doesn't help. Not to mention that "Mega" can mean anything from MarineAngemon to Omnimon/Susanoomon, the Burst Mode Variants and the Sovereigns. Many of which I'd class under a Mega+ Umbrella. This is before we consider outliers like Lucemon, who at Rookie puts most Megas to shame.
That said, I think things are mitigated if we consider that Champion / Adult is the end of the line for most Digimon who aren't partnered.
That said, I think Dragon Ball-eqsue powerlevels are something to be avoided. Those just too quickly scale way out of control and become meaningless. As much of a meme as "over 9000" has become.
I also think that the level system should be somewhat dependent on the setting. The usual system would be what the Digimon use among the themselves, but a group like DATS would likely develop a unified system, classifying Digimon into classes 1-6+.
Then again, more recent adaptations actually appear to dial down the whole "digital" part of the Digital Monsters.
Really like your ideas/points! Especially with bytes like gigabyte!
Glad to hear!
@@Karn_EX
Her welcome!
Although I still use the dub terms, but it's okay ^v^
I always viewed adult to perfect as, for example, greymon perfecting his battle prowess and becoming perfect in metalgreymon, but wargreymon is such a drastic jump from what would be greymon's perfect that it goes even further beyond to the ultimate
my personal favorite would be a mix of jp and international terms; baby, in training, rookie, champion, perfect, ultimate, super ultimate/ultra
although now I'm thinking of the bit terminology and I'm starting to love it!
Digimon stages/levels aren't helped by various digimon being multiple stages in various things. Like Whamon being both Champion and Ultimate. (Also, you can pry the English dub mon and stage names from my cold dead hands)
I do agree that using numbers for the levels/stages would be best. Take drimogimon from Data Squad. It is a level/stage 4 that digivolves into a level 5 non-armor Digmon, as opposed to when Armadillomon uses the Digi-egg of Knowledge to armor digivolve into a level/stage 4-Armor Digmon.
Also, I'm using level/stage because only doing level would make digimon story games weird. Like, this is a level 99 level 4 digimon just sounds confusing. Level 99 stage 4, however, makes much more sense.
The problem with a level system is that where it would work for the card game, shows and vpets, videogames create a problem, most of the more rpg digimon games have numeric levels on top of the actual evolution stage, and having a level 50 mon that's in the level 5 stage feels like it could get confusing.
I know you've touched upon the level system a whoooooole bunch, it's never not relevant, especially considering in the 90s who would have thought the Japanese and English names would be a topic of conversation, but I'm surprised it has taken you this long to deep dive in to this. I have a hard time too with this but largely because of the translations making me have to think about the inconsistencies in level states.
I agree with a lot of the points you brought up. I got into reading Liberator recently (still need to catch up a bit) and i really like how they handled stages a lot more than both the dub and sub names. Both versions will always be something that i like but the card games does a way better job of how stages are in power and connects to Digimon growing stronger every time in battle
I do think this would be way more convenient, but since Digimon games tend to like using levels and generally be RPGs, I would call them "ranks" instead of "levels". I think it is still intuitive that A Rank 4 is above A Rank 3, but in RPG games levels can then be A separate thing. I also personally think it sounds cooler and more grand to refer to them as "ranks", be fitting the feeling evolution is supposed to invoke.
I also feel that it's probably the case that with age comes power (mostly in the form of data), and then power induces maturity. I feel like this was explain a lot of the jank. Older Digimon naturally have more power, and so their base form is of a higher rank, but if they get a big enough power boost, then they'll mature to the next rank, when that power leaves, they then revert to the previous rank. And of course, if they lose a lot of power, they may temporarily revert back to A rank below their default.
You've made some really good points here. I always found the English dub terms just perfect until I got older and noticed the JP terms are better but I always find myself still using the English terms. The English terms just roll off the tongue better lol
BUT I like the bit/bytes terminology. I could see it being that.
Have you seen the art for Digimon Reboot? It's a concept that recontextualized some Mega Levels as Perfect, the final stage in that concept, while sticking true to the V-Pet style.
I always thought levels were a combination of age and data mass. Partner digimon can get a temporary influx of data from their tamer to digivolve when needed, but it doesn't last because it's a shortcut. Considering how digimon view time (from the last episode of ghost game) several human lifetimes are considered no time at all for them, so Tai's agumon wouldn't be able to naturally grow into a greymon in Tai's lifetime. For dedigivolving I figured injured digimon, with time to react at least, could revert to a form that needs less data to survive where they'd otherwise become a digi egg.
Xros actually has the explanation I like the best. Partner digimon are essencially elevated into their future selves temporarily. OmegaShoutmon and ZekeGreymon are elevated into their future selves at the peak of their power. Tactimon even states it took him hundreds of years to reach his state.
We even see this in Hunters; with Shoutmon [King] being a bit bigger and having some natural armour and is considered a Champion rather than a Rookie.
As for Ultimate; it happened because Mega didn't initially exist. It was added after "Ultimate" was dubbed; and Perfect... you know... perfection. [I'm pretty sure Mega wasn't a thing when the dub started]
Hi Karn, long time fan of your videos. Gotta say I wholly agree that the evolution levels across different languages and media are in a dire need of disambiguation, but respectfully I do not feel the same way about using any kind of number system to classify Digimon evolution levels. I think for me it mostly comes down to the feeling of discovery and wonder that I usually feel when learning about new digimon or while enjoying new digimon media.
In particular when I was new to the series and discovered new heights of power for my digimon to reach deserving of an entirely new name for both them and their power level. If I had been introduced to mega/ultimate digimon as "Lvl 5" digimon I wouldn't have been particularly surprised to find out that level 6, 7, 8, or even 59 digimon exist because it's just a number. For me, it doesn't compare to the wonder of seeing digimon reach new heights and seeing the debate over whether a digimon of such a power level is deserving of a new classification with a name that has yet to be invented.
Also I feel like the different stages having distinct names is pretty unique to Digimon and I wouldn't want to give it up but that's a more minor
Yaaaaaa digimon content. 🥰
Man we need a “Master Duel” game for the Digimon TCG game
I really want to play the TCG but I don’t know what would be the best entry point for me
I will say, in regards to the Japanese levels, that there's still some nuance lost with the fan-translated terms we've come to use. Good example being in regard to what you said about the "Perfect"-level. As you said, in english, "perfect" refers to completion, a "finality". However, the original Japanese term "Kanzen-tai", with "-tai" referring to "stage", can also just refer to "completion", or instead of plain "perfection" to something being "perfected", which would also go along very well with a lot of early Perfect-level Digimon being "modified" versions, MetalGreymon becoming a Cyborg, Numemon slipping inside of a teddybear, so on so forth, they've been experimented on and the results are artificially "perfected" versions of their Adult forms. In that sense "Ultimate" is also a valid translation/localization for this stage, just as much as perfect, it just sets different priorities than the straight translation. This can be even more complicated for the "Ultimate"-level as in "Kyukyoku-tai", since yes the translation for the term seems to be pretty much exclusively "ultimate", in this case the kanji the word is made up from can provide additional nuance, with the "kyu" referring to "research" and the "kyoku" in this phrase translating straight to "very", but it's also a particle for words that translate to "extreme" or that refer to a "zenith", which together would bring an image of "the height of research" or "researched to the extreme". Basically, while both of these names reasonably can refer to a final stage of sorts, neither of these have the same finality as either of their translations, and do not exactly imply that a Digimon of that stage couldn't develope further. In relation to this, there's actually a divide in the Japanese level-system, as both the Perfect and Ultimate level use the suffix "-tai" to denote to their stage. However, the Adult and prior levels use the suffix "-ki". The difference being that "-ki" refers to a period of time, basically denoting a stage in development, while "-tai" uses the kanji for "body", basically just referring to "form", ditching the age-aspect.
In relation to this, I find it peculiar that Zeromaru in V-Tamer starts out as an Adult-level, so it can only continue on to Perfect and Ultimate. It basically has already reached the end of the age-related evolutionary lines, which would explain your point about why its further levels are only considered in terms of power-level instead of aging... because that's literally what the Perfect and Ultimate stages are, unlike the Child and Adult level, increases in power-level instead of part of the process of maturing.
I do however agree that the Level-system used in the cardgame is generally easier to work around, although I feel having it based on "powerlevels" is a slippery slope that we already have with considering the current stages as "powerlevels". Biggest culprit of course being Lucemon ("Child"), wrecking several high-level Digimon on debut. The example with Armors is also a bit off because while they're generally treated as Lvl.4s, even disregarding cases like Magnamon, their actual powerlevel can drastically vary, due to factors like compatability of a Digimon with a Digimental, but also with Digimentals being remnant data of Digimon that represented the values of a certain Crest, I'd imagine the power of a Digimental is also determined by what kind of Digimon they came from. Another issue would be Hybrids, both Human and Beast Spirits are put at Lvl.4 just like Armors iirc, while their Double Spirits are considered Lvl.5, however lorewise both the Human and Beast Spirits can rival Perfect and even Ultimate-level Digimon, and Double Spirits are suppedly even above the Ultimate-level/Lvl.6 Ancient Warriors, but the main reason they're Lvl.5 is so KaiserGreymon and MagnaGarurumon can follow them as Lvl.6 and then Susanoomon as Lvl.7, basically they're forced into their respective level not to correlate with their powerlevel but so their evolutionary scale fits within the level-system. So... it's a bit imperfect in that regard, however if we just scrap the powerlevel-aspect of it and just look at it as steps of evolution the cardgame-system works perfectly.
Edit: Something else about the cardgame-levels though is that at least in theory, many Lvl.7 Digimon should also theoretically be able to exist as Lvl.6, like in the case of Rafflesiemon, it can be the Jogress between Rosemon and Lotusmon, in which case it should definitely be a Lvl.7 stage-wise, but it can also naturally evolve from a Lvl.5 in which case it would follow that it's a Lvl.6, so... yeah, I feel the cardgame-stages work besser to signify at which step of its evolution a Digimon is rather than as actual powerlevels.
My main problem with the bit-system would be, aside from layering a powerlevel-system on top of it as you suggested (something that imo would only really be necessary in a videogame-format, since we also know there are stronger and weaker members of each species depending on training), is the existence of Examon, implying that "Exa" is an incredible size in the Digital World and that something like bit- and byte-size in the Digital World also refer to the size of something in general, not the density of data as the term for an evolutionary stage would suggest. Basically, it feels already a bit too late to use the term as such.
Gotta love that I’m grinding in Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth as I find this video to play in the background. xD
Haha nice
It's probably worth pointing out one modern manga seems to agree with you. Digimon Paradox uses a numerical level system (though points out the normal terms too). The writer pointed out in Twitter that it's because he realizes the Baby, Child, etc. system is one the fans know but it's also not obvious to a brand new fan, while numbers are extremely easy to understand.
Like your change to the Level system, even though personally i just take Ultimate out and use the japanese Baby (NOT with Baby II) and Perfect to refer to those Levels, along with the Ultra to refer to those Level 7 digimon.
My personal Level System that i use is: Baby > In-Training > Rookie > Champion > Perfect > Mega > Ultra.
I really do think the data levels should have always been how it was done, the more data they have the higher their power. One of them already been called mega is annoying but from bit to Exabyte level works well and would make for some fun power scaling and how the kids working with the digimon works, their bond creates data that is used to make the digimon evolve
The best thing about the level system is that it can work with most of the other systems as well. The level system is just a number and then the various dubs and stuff can have their own names associated with each number but the numbers can always stay consistent.
I agree! I'd probably have levels as the "default" but still let anime etc use the name system
A Bit system would be a super fun game mechanic! Like you have your 1 Bit Botamon, and when it reaches 10Bits it evolves, maybe some Digimon need higher Bit levels and have better stats etc
That's my idea! I literally commented on that idea to you twice in the comments!
I'm glad that you loved my idea that you made a video about it.
I have had this idea independently for a long time lol but glad you also think so
I was under the impression that the JP level terms change from age to power level at perfect because the method of reaching that level is different. Most Digimon can get to the adult level by just aging, but going beyond that requires a great amount of training. Maybe this is what Karn meant by the age stuff just being in the V-pet and World games, since the methods of evolution are so different in the anime and other games.
Yea I completely agree about the lv system from the tcg I've had so many times where I'm having conversations and we get confused between ultimate and ultimate and saying lv6 or lv5 has made that way easier
i like the number system idea smooths over any possible confusion even some that has never played or watched digimon can tell ruffly how strong a digimon is compared to another without having it explained
In the portuguese dub, we used the japanese version during the first two seasons, however, from Tamers onward, it was changed to be more akin to the english version, but with new names for Ultimate and Mega. So here the levels are, directly translated:
Principiante, meaning Rookie
Campeão, meaning Champion
Mega Campeão, meaning Mega-Champion (The Ultimate/Perfect)
Hiper Campeão, meaning Hyper-Champion (The Mega/Ultimate)
I think I'm inclined to agree - the Level system from the card game definitely makes the most sense, both for organization and readability. However, there's a tangible loss of that late-90s cool factor that comes from having named stages. I think it could be much easier to simply remove the "Ultimate" name from the equation, and have Lv5 and Lv6 Digimon universally be named Perfect and Mega respectively. Japan and the West can still have their own names for Lv3 and Lv4, because there's no way to confuse those. Also, I think "why not both?" is definitely something that applies here.
Regarding the outdatedness of Digimon stages representing age - I've said this before in other comments, but I've always been of the mind that aging through each level is a Digimon's natural way of growing. It's the circumstance of having a Tamer with a Digivice that allows them to go back and forth at will, skip stages, etc. The potential for growth from the Tamer is being converted into data by the Digivice, enabling it to cheat the natural evolution process. I'd be interested to see some Digimon media contradict that, but thus far it feels like a pretty bulletproof theory
I actually think perfect level is really interesting. I think turning into a ultimate level Digimon means breaking the limits and becoming something even beyond the perfection. Even though we see the ultimate/mega level as common, most Digimon in the environment are childs and adults. A perfect being is a really rare sight. The ultimate level is just elusive, almost like a legend in some midias. For most, adult is the farthest you can go, perfection is the best something can be, and ultimates are just not even considered or thought about. They are above, divine, a myth.
I agree generally but Super-Ultimate/Ultra has kinda made Mega/Ultimate feel a little less special
I'm all in on the Level system from the card game. Use it for all the things. Simple and Clean!
The in-lore reason of why they used "Perfect" it's because in the main universe, the one where VPets come from, the researchers in charge of studying Digimon noticed they wouldn't evolve pass that stage so they denominated it "Perfect" because that's what they concluded, but later they discovered Megas/Ultimates but the terminology was already in place so it sticked around.
Not that I think the idea is better or that it should happen, but what about a naming convention more relevant to computing:
Egg >> Recycle stage - you literally recycle the digimon to an egg
Baby >> Fresh/Re-start stage - a fresh restart with cleared out RAM
In-Training >> Boot up stage - the operating system is loading in/being requested
Rookie >> Operator/OS stage - software is up and loaded, ready to work
Champion >> Update/Upgrade stage - we have added something onto our baseline OS
Ultimate >> MAX stage - or Max Resources, we're at a software limit
Mega >> Overclock stage - we've altered our hardware to go beyond the recommended limits
i'm a fan of either the TCG levels or the bit system since its more in line with the digital nature of the show. or combining it so have the level represent power but the bit representing stage of assistance. with digivlution and digivolution being power transfers.
I love the Byte idea, I think it really streamlines the stages and is perfect for a series about digital monsters. Can't believe nobody thought about this sooner!
I agree with giving the stages of digivolution a numerical term as in the card game, it makes it way easier to understand. However, when that translates to video games that use any form of growth or exp system, i.e. "levels"; whe could have the stages called "ranks" or something, but they would function basically the same. e.g. In x game, my agumon is a rank 2 for it being an agumon, but is level 20 cuz I like to farm idk haha
tailmon is the only adult in the team, and she is really the only one acting as adult
Magazine (the reading material) x Magazine (The bullet storing material) OTP
Yo McLovin the Strikedramon? Goated. Would love to see him talk to the digi police
I just kept hearing karn say "go further/beyond" and imagining him saying "PLUS ULTRA!"
I always thought that age was sort of the baseline for most digimon but when they have a human partner they are able to push through there age limitation and are empowered by the bond between human and digimon and strength/power level they digivolve beyond their "age level". So like a combo of both. I do like the naming ideas you presented though.
Yeah I thought that too but then when we look at games like Digimon World Next Order they have human partners with Digivices... so why does that have a pure age system but Adventure doesn't? I love the "anything goes" vibes but unity gets hard there haha
@@Karn_EX Yeah, thats a really good point
I am happy this has been said now
The level system reminds me a lot of Street Fighter, where three of the bosses in Street Fighter 2 had their names switched around when they came to America, so there was potential confusion when JP player spoke to NA players about how "Bison", "Balrog" or "Vega" were. So the FGC adopted the generic names "Dictator", "Boxer", and "Claw" so everyone knew who was who. JP Digimon fans and NA Digimon fans might get confused on what stage Ultimate is, so the neutral and generic "level X" nomenclature would help a lot. It's been proven to work with Street Fighter, so I don't see why it can't here.
I think using bits/bytes as the level terms is quite charming, for sure. I've thought about it before. I do think it's annoying that both bit and byte are already kind of being used in the Digimon universe, so like using bit for the smallest level still hits the problem where a bit is also the unit of currency (it's like if we called newborn babies "pennies"), and I think just glazing over it like "whatever they'll figure it out" defeats the point of using distinct language to be more clear. That said, the higher levels of data sizes have some really cool names (mega, giga, tera, zeta, etc. They start sounding like Final Fantasy spell names), so I think it's absolutely something that should be on the table as an option.
Also I'm not going to lie, if you made me choose solely between JP and NA level designations, I'm going to pick NA every time. I've never been a fan of how disconnected the JP terms are; they start off as age designations and then suddenly shift into Big Cool Words. Both "Perfect" _and_ "Ultimate" are supposed to refer to a final level because of the fact, as you said, that "Perfect" was originally the final stage and then they added Ultimate, so now it just feels like there's two final stages. It really sours me because the remnant of Perfect being called that just calls to attention how far removed we are from the early days, if that makes any sense. It's weird to me that the levels have names that are like "this is the final point" and then "no just kidding THIS is the final point", especially because _even Ultimate isn't the final point anymore._ It just feels like it aged poorly in a weird way. I think the NA terms are a little more cohesive, and also it doesn't pigeonhole every single level 3 Digimon into being a "child", which has always bothered me. I think the level 3s can vary widely in terms of their character and mental acuity and I don't like all of them being painted as just kids, even if they do tend to be cute and less experienced, and even in the anime we see "Child-level" Digimon with wrinkles and facial hair to show that _they are older than their peers!_ So they're an old Child? The elder of your tribe is a Child with a moustache? It's ridiculous. I think the terms the NA used which are more "combat-appropriate", if that makes sense, helps it feels a little less tied to age, even if I do really appreciate the vpet side of Digimon and raising your Digimon from a baby to a big monster. I just think the NA terms are more widely applicable while the JP terms are inconsistent and largely specific to just the vpet.
But either way, if I was in charge, I would either just go with the level designation or work with the data-size idea suggested to play into the Digital Monster theming, which I think is super important.
Another prodigious video Karn! Always fun to see your takes on things
For a while there, some things translated "Kanzentai" as "Complete (body)" rather than "Perfect (body)," which captures the idea of it being the highest stage but being able to be exceeded much better I think. And yeah the whole system is kind of jank, because levels 1-4 are basic maturation, but beyond that they're refinements of power due to experience/training
The card game levels I'll definitely be more comfortable with
I agree that it’s confusing the way digimon names things especially with the dubs making it even more difficult. I do take pride in understanding it though!
In my own Digimon-like project, the stages are called Drowsing (latent power), Awoken (unlocked power), Advanced (trained power), Mastered (refined power), and Perfected (maximum potential power).
alternate I have in my pitch for a reboot
Hatchling ->Baby->Child->Adult->Perfect->Ultimate->Super Ultimate
Mode Changes Armor, and spirits are Adult+, Perfect+, and Ultimate+ depending on what it is
This keeps the power/age system, cleans up the language, makes the odd non-levels make sense in system, and most importantly keeps with the lore.
You can't improve on perfection. Unless you're a Digimon.
Lol true
9:37 Examon would be fun, Ik he is named after Exabyte not Exabit, his level Would be Zettabit but you could have him as protagonist partner in 1 season, and when fighting people they'd think he is named after Lv 6. instead of Lv 7. :D
Oh I've seen the thumbnail alright 👌
@Karn_EX here's an idea: Fresh (baby), Trainee (in-training), Student (rookie), Expert (Champion), Master (ultimate), Sensei/Teacher (Mega). This is based somewhat on Martial Arts ranks.
I would honestly like if how in Digimon when a 1st stage meets the final stage they act like a kid meeting their idol
Just to leave the information for those who may be interested: here in Brazil, when Adventure was shown on open TV, they translated Champion/Ultimate/Mega as Adulto (Adult)/Perfeito (Perfect)/Extremo (Extreme). Furthermore, instead of Level, the word Fase (Phase or Stage in english) was used. Personally, i prefer using this term in place of Level even today to avoid confusion with experience level.
In the Arabic dub of Digimon adventure digimons use the card games level but in trainings 2 are level one and rookies are level 2 and so goes on till they become megas which they are level five but they stop doing that in adventure 2
In Spanish (from Spain) we got two different evolution stages.
Originally, when we got the Spanish Dub for Adventure, we used a mix of the Japanese one and the English one, and the stage was referred as their 'body':
- Bebé (Baby)
- Entrenamiento (In-Training)
- Principiante (Rookie)
- Maduro (lit. Mature, close to Adult)
- Perfecto (Perfect)
- Supremo (lit. Supreme, close to Ultimate).
But from Zero Two and onwards, we got our own system that changed on the Adult stage (and we called their stage their 'level').
Maduro -> Campeón (Champion)
Perfecto -> *Mega* Campeón (lit. Mega-Champion...which you can see is confusing with the English dub).
Supremo -> Híper Campeón (lit. Hyper Champion.)
Very good video, and I like both of your naming ideas. And, your points are valid.
To be fair to the dub, at least, they call out Mega surpassing Ultimate. I'm fairly sure the quote was "He's found some way to evolve further. He's now some kind of Mega Ultimate form! T-That's Cheating!"
I really like the levels and bit system you suggested
Gatomon being a Champ/Adult will forever make me irrationality mad.
I feel like if in the dub they had the switched mega and ultimate it would make so much sense especially going into the super ultimate level, ultra is the only dub level name that feels off to me
great video, I agree that the card game has the best level system.. your idea considers the lore and is just as clear so I like it