It always amazes me that Jonathon can speak for so long and so profoundly about these complex systems of feedback and mental health etc. without ever considering material and economic factors that have also coincided with these changes. 30 years of stagnant wage growth in the US, a massive economic crisis in 2008 that completely changed the opportunities for a lot of young people, just a few years before 2014 being a big turning point. Unfettered corporatism, etc...
Yes. It starts to feel like a long winded cop out or avoidance of those economic, social, political, financial, geological issues which in the final end all add up have many times the weight of the cleverly explained complex feedback loops of mental health.
Well he did say he was a liberal. They tend not focus on the underlying economic system. The worst thing about the cultural left is that they are associated with the economic left (Socialists). The cultural left's woke shenanigans make it difficult for Socialists to be taken seriously by people who should be taking them seriously. Even if you disagree with their solutions, their critique of capitalism is worth listening to.
That's because he's a corporate apologist and propaganda artist. If you can't suss that out, he's a genius; if you can, he's ridiculous. Congrats, you figured him out.
You are not political. No one wants to hear your opinions. You all have lost the trust of the society you claim to advocate and it is not coming back for you. Myself and everyone else imagines the most incompetent people gathering here around this channel and those alike. You cannot provide solutions. The best thing you can do is go away and let your failed fake ideological failure be forgotten. No one takes you serious and it will be _long_ before they ever do again. I believe this so much I have taken all this time to type it and I am still not satisfied. you are not liberal you are not democratic you are not social you are not civilized you are not a leader stop
why can't I just spend my time having a couple of beers with you guys and listening to you talking and sometimes trying my chance to say a thing or two ? that what I want :)
Really interesting dialogue.... I think more and more of us are starting to feel like something has to give, this path is not sustainable. The wrong people are becoming successful and they're getting away with lies that will have detrimental effects on our future/kids. Our country/society is becoming like a department store after a disaster event where everyone is looting and just focused on what they can get for themselves now. It can be hard to resist joining a team and getting something for yourself, even though you know it's wrong.
... or 10 000 years-? Maybe it depends on where we narrow our focus: I've experienced examples of the dynamics above and--fortunately--their complete oposites. Let's aim high, mind our biases & projections, and give room for others to grow (rather than pigeon-hole & corner them in boxes). "People live up to our expectations of them."
A very very good way of putting it. America is not a country, it's a business. As a member of the American youth I can attest that it feels more and more like this country is meant for us to squeeze and loot rather than contribute to.
This is an establishment spin on what the problem is "People are more rightwing, others are more left wing" Nonsense that's not the problem, the problem isn't extremism, it's CONFORMISM! Conforming to your group narratives, conforming to establishment and to authority It's not EXTREMISTS ppl need worry most about, it's the CONFORMISTS There just isn't enough extremists, the ORDINARY CONFORMIST in difficult economic times, that is THE group that can and do bring about genocides and Holocausts
I was fortunate to have grown up in the 50s and 60s with the great outdoors as my back yard. The only requirement was that I be home at 5pm for supper. We ranged freely, without any any supervision or accountability.
It seems to me that he's just above foundational. All of his ideas about democracy are rooted in an unexamined false premise, namely that one group of men can have valid authority over another based upon documents and rituals. It's an unfounded moral claim.
I have used the expression which seems appropriate for this conversation: "Do you recall how our parents taught us that it is not nice to hit someone 'below the belt?' Have you noticed how these days it seems that so many people wear their belts above their ears?"
But also the targeted hits above the ears via advertisement, propaganda and religions. These are psychological hits, hardly regulated and full of lies.
Not sure how you can keep referring to these generational changes without crediting Howe and Strauss’ book “The Fourth Turning,” which documents at length the cycles of history you discussed and credited to others at the outset of this video.
technology like the Social Web breaks all historical cycles, so the only antidote is the creation of the Constructive Web for people to jump ship TO read Art of Consensus: Crystallizing the Internet into a Constructive Web
Thank you for such an intelligent conversation about the mess we are in. I too grew up in the 1950s and have seen many cycles . It seems like what we built in the 60s and 70s has been swept away. The battles won seem lost. But still there are so many positive changes since the 50s. I need to remember the gains and think about the long game.
There have indeed been many positive changes...too bad commentators like Haidt haven't contributed to them. They are far too busy telling the public that the problems are of our own making, rather than being created by the corporate state that he avoids talking about.
Haidt's window on the world seems to be just terribly small and protected. He's probably around the same age as me, which means he would have grown up during the Satanic Panic and the rise of political evangelical Christians. Just a tad older and he would have witnessed the moral panic and political exploitation around desegregation. Before that we had anti-communist witch-hunts. Honestly, I don't think he is actually acting in good faith... I have a really hard time imagining he is really that myopic
Haidt's take away that absent a major existential threat, innumerable person in 'comfortable' bunkers, humans are genetically driven to fight endlessly without innovation, is brilliant and NEEDS to be understood en mass. Wonderful talk.
I’m not sure this is a recent phenomenon. I’m not sure where the date 2014 comes from (possibly it mushroomed into being, but like a mushroom the development happens over a long period underground, out of sight). I know nothing about the US; my experience is that I noticed this type of phenomenon in the UK around 2000, and have since learnt that there has been a deliberate movement set in motion (by the Monetarists aka Neoliberals) from about 1980 onwards. But even earlier, with the invention of “marketing” going back as far as 1960 - the art of lying convincingly and without accountability (except some organizations got caught out, like the tobacco industry, drugs companies - Thalidomide - the lead & asbestos debacles, and more recently Volkswagen and many banks like Barclays or the insurance companies and their practice of mis-selling policies or investments). Even when exposed, the punitive measures were contrived, a fine of $10 million seems satisfactory in the media, but when you realize that the perpetrators made billions in profits and killed/maimed millions of people, it’s an insult, rubbing salt in the wound. Regulations devised to address the loopholes or blatant criminality are either meaningless or repealed after a period, when few people will notice. I’m still trying to figure out the real root of this mindless, uncritical hatred and studied stupidity. It may be the movement that gave rise to the likes of Ayn Rand, or may be the vestiges of fascism that gave rise to the Nazis, Hitler, Mussolini, McCarthy, etc. The sentiments of the Nazis survived WWII, probably exported to the US and Latin America; but we’re dormant in the British psyche too… the notion of empire and superiority (also something that shifted to the US). On the other hand, life is far less cruel than it ever was. Poor houses for children, sweat shops, physical brutality in the home are discouraged (but still with pockets in hidden places ) and the penal system has improved hugely. Government institutions have become more tolerant towards sexuality and women and the plight of the “lesser” races. But many people have resisted the notion of logic, science, facts, and tolerance, and the morality that comes from kindness and tolerance. Religion still has a stranglehold over the lives of too many people (yet it’s encouraging to know that more and more people are turning away from religion, so it may take another 40-50 years before the cruel and ignorant influence of religion is finally obliterated from our world).
Gotta love watching Western society collapse after just a few generations after abandoning spirituality just for people to continue blaming religion for the problem. I can't believe people aren't happy and don't have children when they think human life is just random coincidence and none of us matter; who knew?
About 10 years ago the news media was so toxic that I turned it off. Now I am experiencing the same thing with FaceBook and Google and Instagram. I am beginning to turn it off also. Instead I read a lot. I like TH-cam channels where I can learn new things. I am optimistic that AI education will direct our minds toward learning and developing ourselves, away from social media platforms. Ultimately irrational people like in Gen-Z are confronted by reality and their delusions collapse.
The answer to your problems is culture. Understand that art has four central functions and if you stick to them you will have a culture everyone will want to celebrate. You Americans have a wonderful popular culture. Don't allow it to be destroyed. Shared stories will give you social cohesion.
So don't take any notice of him. You just might know better than him. I stopped watching sometime ago. Now I see why. Snooty guys talking about others being 'lost to civilization'. Hundred contradictions to everything Red Jumper (Jon) says but i cant be bothered. When Stewart questions him and disagrees he, Jon Haidt, swings around very fast. So, don't take him too seriously. Too many books being written these days that should have stayed trees.
Good discussion about the internet from an academic perspective. However, missing from the equation is the influence of corporate America. I think much of the 'bad stuff' happened because that's what corporations wanted (without thinking about or appreciating collateral consequences). I don't believe any of the things spoken about here to modify being online, which are perfectly fine, will fly if it goes against corporate interests, which I also think some of the solutions offered will be. You need to sell corporations it's in their quarterly - not long-term - interest to change. For example, the algorithms exist to sell more advertising and to hell with the damage done to the common good. How do you beat that out of the minds of corporate/investor types?
I don't think you can. Its an almost impenetrably powerful addiction - the investor mindset, all encompassing. All that will stop them will be the absolute defeat and failure of their schemes and methods. The day when no one wants to buy one thing they have to sell. Boredom and satiation might just finish them.
We need good, old fashioned barn building ...with picnics, hay rides, sitting around the campfire, and with barn dances after.. You know what I mean. The modern equivalent of... provideing opportunities for people of mixed ages, to mix to help each other and to relax and celebrate after in the glow of being one..
Old, widely read, guys having a conversation about cultural/historical trends really delights me, and I don't think it is just because I'm and old guy. In my youth I was a Buckminster Fuller fanboy and I still hold the belief that humanity can be a long term success in universe. But lately this belief is shaky. I'm very worried that democracy is teetering on the edge of failure and humanity is heading towards another dark ages. And in my view social media as it has existed so far is a major culprit. I have enjoyed Dr. Haidt's writings for some years now. I think he's on the right track. Thank you all for an enlightening conversation.
That was very enjoyable and insightful. Wished Ian McGilchrist could have participated to share his research into the behavioral dangers he sees shaping society through social media as we become overly engaged with our left brains which manifests itself as always being right and in a virtuous way. The blending of Jonathan’s hypothesis with McGilchrist’s insights about how the increasing dominance of left brain conditioning is leading us as a culture into destruction provides a possible handle to counter this dangerous degeneration into relativistic nihilism and self absorption.
Interesting. Stewart Brand is a forgotten or unsung hero of humanity and he'd probably rather keep it that way so don't tell anyone. I might well owe him what health and life I have.
He's only half correct, these guys need to get out of their echo chamber and do a charles kuralt in mid America. I vote not for either party but for the people who have the moral and spiritual well-being of the country as their priority ,not lining their own pockets. Both sides are guilty
But both sides are not EQUALLY guilty. With America having only two parties that have somehow claimed ownership of democracy it has been relatively easy to corrupt politicians, but the Republican Party has clearly shown itself to be the greater threat dating back to the late Nixon era. You are correct that voting for candidates of character, integrity and goodwill is necessary for positive change, but with the complete corporate and radical-right take-over of the Republicans it is currently impossible to find such people in that party. The Democrats have become almost as bad since the Clinton Presidency, but there finally is a glimmer of hope with the few progressives now in office. That's why, as you suggest that much closer scrutiny of the candidates (not to mention being part of the process of nominating and supporting good candidates) is so important.
I don’t buy that both sides are guilty. One side is corrupted by dark money and greed and has lied over and over, spread hate, and taken away the rights of women to have control over their bodies. That was the GQP I just described. They also want to take away social safety nets such as social security and Medicare. So don’t hide behind that “both sides are the same” trope.
@@ivandafoe5451 "Those damn corporate Republicans" -The guy who votes for a party who tried to make it law that you have to consume Pfizer products to do literally anything
This is why I have an issue with his work. He seems to have heavy bias in his views. I'm not typically a fan of someone who can only call out one party, and cherry picks events/politicians to establish a narrative.
Wealth and technology make it easier to self-sort and to intellectually/culturally silo. Without the tug of an opposing opinion it's easier to drift to the extreme. In fact, saying something extreme is beneficial because it proves your purity and thereby raises your status in your group.
Some smart people are kind and compassionate and generally work toward making everyone's lives better. Some smart people are, for whatever reasons, much more selfish and uncompassionate and manipulate the ignorant to enrich and empower themselves without true regard for the betterment of all... -weezi-💖🙏💜🙏🤠
this comment says nothing. it was not even a positive statement. you just point you old decrepit finger around and repeat the current thing. This is common everyone for some reason and all of you really want to "do something about it” or something but not you personally.
I don’t think they’re blaming social media if you listen to what they’re saying they’re saying that it started 20 years prior to social media being big and the groundwork was laid by Newt Gingrich and social media was like pouring gasoline on the fire for the polarization. He laid it out pretty well.
Gingrich came to power within the Republican Party because of how House Democrats handled the 1984 recount for the 8th Congressional district. This recount also explains why the Republican Party believes so strongly that there is voter fraud.
you will never name any people responsible. you yourself are avoiding accountability. everyone like you and everyone politician you allow to misrepresent you and me but not much longer
Talking about free range parenting, my mother walked me to kindergarten the first two or three days. Then she asked me if I could get myself to school. I said I could, and I did. Recently I lived in an apartment complex where the school bus drove through stopping at the management office. The mothers would drive from their apartments, no more than 100 yards, and wait for their children to get off the bus. One day the bus disgorged the children and one child, maybe six or seven years old, didn't see his mother and began screaming as loud as he could "Mommy where are you".
Prof. Haidt spins a convincing tale to back up his hypotheses. Too bad he always fails to place the blame where it rightfully belongs...with the corporate state that has allowed him to flourish as a commentator on social issues...as long he NEVER blames them for any of our problems.
As a responsible parent this is teaching grandma to suck eggs, but it is shocking that in my children’s peer circle I was considered to be a Victorian father. No phone (let alone social media) at all until 15, outdoor sporting activities. No video games before 12 and thereafter limited to 1 hour a day. No tv at all. Early years (pre 5) piano, arts, puzzles, 3 Rs, a bit of soft “bullying” 8-12 to toughen the character. Then 12-18, all the classic literature and philosophy that the schools are too lazy to teach. Kids are now distinguished maths academics, nothing like their anxiety laden peers having panic attacks and wanting to cut their male organs off. It’s really not difficult.
I remember the 1980s when apathy was a normative threat. Now pathetic discourse is the problem. What is lacking is the crucible of logic. Instead we have a commercial outrage marketing sector.
"If things keep going this way, 100% of everyone will be depressed and suicidal." So is it the people or the system that should change? I'm pretty sure someone wrote a book about capitalism around a century ago that predicted this. I think... Hmm.
We've had capitalism a long time and depression levels have varied tremendously. I also haven't seen much evidence they are lower under any other system. That doesn't mean our solutions cannot be at a societal level. Research has shown people are happiest when pursuing a goal that seems reasonably within reach, not liberated from the need to have goals at all.
@@baigandinel7956 capitalism has evolved. Started big with Raygun and his trickle down bull. Further empowered by oligarchs and lobbyists. We are living in the end stages of capitalism. All wealth has been hoarded by the one percent leaving a class divide that became the perfect storm to produce the orange menace. China will lead the next century whether we like it or not.
@@tracyday6710 Most people agree corruption exists. Marxist types say it is an inevitable result of capitalism; others have different diagnoses and more surgical solutions. There is no inescapable reason we could not return to a better way of doing things as in the past. Governments instituted to end capitalism have never historically been any less corrupt, and that only concentrates power far more than it is under the 1 percent. I do not think the Chinese are any happier than we. The correlation between money and happiness is not absolute. In many Latin American countries for example, that are perfectly capitalist, people report greater happiness. It's because they hug a person when they meet them, have family in their life, fill their lives with song, etc.
I'm always amazed at those who blame capitalism as the cause of our and the world's problems. It's not the failure of capitalism, it's a failure of government. The government is suppose to regulate capitalism. If it fails to regulate capitalism so that it produces bad results, that is a failure of government. In fact, governments are made of the same bad behaving people as businesses are. It least in capitalism, the consumer has some choice whether to enter into a contract with a particular business. If government made the decisions instead of numerous businesses, there would be no choice but to obey. Those who want to see some form of socialism actually want to be able to make everyone else behave according to their personal values. That is, they really want to be tyrants but disguise their motivation as concern for the welfare of the less fortunate. People almost always deny their true motives, it the motives are not socially acceptable. They even hide them from themselves, even when they are obvious, as in the case described above. There has never been a tyrant who didn't believe he was doing what was best for his people. It is wise to always question one's own motivations.
Yes, competition is good, there's a sick excess I often see that I just don't understand, from individual careerists relishing the relative failure of their friends or family to something like Disney wanting to dominate Netflix just because. I just pull back and say, "Why?" Why do you care so damn much? Sit down, enjoy what you have, take in the sunset, have a drink.
"Once information is out, you can never get it back." Yup. Information is a service, not a product. If you deal in information, you're only ever as valuable as the next bit of information you can come up with. Don't forget to save for your retirement.
Alas, we have failed to address the Herd of Elephants of Global Climate Destabilization. The bad news is that it's harsh weathers conforms to physical science - the good news is that that we know exactly what to do about it.
"the good news is that we know exactly what to do about it" Let me guess: More taxes, more government power, less citizen rights? Limits on products and luxuries that the rich won't have to adhere to? More alarmism on the ocean rising from people living on beachfront property.
I think that for a for a lecture about frail young people are, the guest lecturer has a very alarmist tone. I live in a very conservative are and when I went to college we had trigger warnings. Professors told us when we were about to see, read or discuss explicit content. However, for our philosophy classes or biology classes we had ppl who were allowed to exempt themselves because we were discussing Hume or evolution. Isn't that being cuddle and frail? However, I see that ppl of all ages are easily manipulated by social media, not just young ppl.
With all due respect to Jonathan Haidt whom I respect for his intellectual honesty, he needs to stop viewing the past 50 or 60 years through rose colored glasses. Yes, cancel culture has become more extreme and pervasive now that it is being reinforced by the left wing social media managers in silicon valley, but things were already moving in that direction when "politically correct" speech codes were taking over college campuses and conservative speakers would sometimes be disinvited or shouted down if they were allowed to speak. And even going back to the 1970s, intelligence researchers and sociobiologists sometimes were subjected to mass protests on campus and even death threats. So this is not a new trend, just one that Dr. Haidt apparently was blind to until it reached its most recent extreme, and whether or not it is at high tide or will wax even worse in the years ahead, God only knows.
Very interesting discussion. I liked the analogy of trying to make new rules for competitive game under changing circumstances. The new rules need to be able to keep the competitors engaged in the game, otherwise players are simply playing with themselves and do not develop to their full potential
Those of us that grew up in gun country ran in the fields. My mom would not let me have a toy gun, only a real gun. She didn’t want me to confuse the 2. School was cancelled on the first day of hunting season, because we all hunted, well some of the girls didn’t.
22:50 Jon sais "The left is more overprotective of their children". I am curious how he has come to that conclusion. From my reading it's the conservatives that are protective (they reason from protectionism and norms after all) and the liberals that keep their doors open and let the children run in and out without super vision (they reason from openness to experience after all). I was raised by a hippie mom and she was letting me run out into the ocean by myself since I was 5. I've nearly drowned at least 10 times but none the less I was definitely not over protected. It was when I stay the night at religious/conservative friends' houses we weren't allowed to do shit but watch tv.
11 of the 12 men who landed on the moon had been boy scouts .. it used to be a place for boys to be amongst themselves outdoors while learning valuable skills and challenging themselves without interference, then some brainiac got the idea that it would be ok for girls to join up thereby defeating the one space for boys that was theirs .. the decline of another american institution ...
I appreciated the section where Jonathan Haidt spoke about competition and human nature. It made me wonder about his opinions of collaboration and human nature in relation to competition...(around the 53min mark)
It is odd that everyone assumes we are going to be able to continue to make semiconductors and advanced computers into the future, even though their manufacture requires a global trade network that is breaking down and massive numbers of highly-trained engineers who are aging out with no replacement. Neon has gone up 20X in the only available market, China, which is needed to focus the lasers to manufacture semiconductors. Technologies, even military technologies, do not self-perpetuate without organized and intentional action. The larger the required scale of the technology, the more effort is required. Computer technology has only ever existed in the most globalized era of history, why do all these prognosticators have such confidence that will continue?
The brief mention of advertising reminds me....part of 1950s monoculture was made possible by the fact that television shows were largely sponsored by one company. That company was who you complained to when a joke was off color or risqué. So, that company could dictate content, dictate it so that it had broad appeal (and was perhaps boring). But when advertising gets broken into a dozen 30-second blocks then it's more difficult for a consumer to complain about content and its much easier for the risqué content producer to find an advertiser who can afford to step into a 30 second spot abandoned by a consumer-responsive advertiser.
We are in a moment that seems unique In human history. Of course, we don’t and can’t know whether that is true or not. We are part of a fairly good accumulation of fairly objective data about fairly deep and wide information (although there are significant numbers who disagree). Unfortunately, our data regarding most of human social history, prior to about 600 years ago, is fragmentary, often unclear, and otherwise not good for guidances. So, many of us are trying to build a better ship (as others have in the past), on a hull that was launched long ago, even as a large number of the crew are working from very different blueprints.
I’m early in the convo so maybe this will eventually be addressed, but it seems like something that would be accounted for from the outset if it were truly considered: Academia being held to account for its role in upholding structural inequality, unchecked for centuries, isn’t the ‘fault’ of social media. Social media eliminated the division between people who always recognized this problem but we’re isolated. that worked in academia’s favor for a very long time, but to think institutions wouldn’t meet a day where this would be socially rectified is elitist, inept and delusional. If institutions had addressed the concrete discrepancies on their own, there wouldn’t have been such a boiling point. Now you have to deal with everything all at once and it’s overwhelming and institutions deserve to be overwhelmed with facing themselves in the mirror.
Equality isn't a good to be doled out like potatoes by some all-powerful centralized unit, but inequality occurs within nature, and as a result of the laws of causality. As Douglas Murray put it, equality is a worthy value but makes little sense as the bedrock for all morality. Equality by itself would never have advanced civilization to its current state in one million years. Most importantly, "equality" is not the most important mission of the university, but uncorrupted knowledge. Discussions about equality at the university need to take place in a way that retains the utmost respect for the integrity of the processes for knowledge acquisition in the first place, rather than propagandizing.
You might be somewhat right if you said liberal democracy, which is what we have, a democracy for the wealthy, much like the democracy of slave owners in the south. Under socialism that switches: slaves become workers and owners become slaves. The underclass becomes the ruling class, securing communism. Under communism those slaves assimilate into common society. Council communism is specifically direct democracy.
@@ZalamaTheDragonGod you seem to forget that we are run by a government that has no policy and they dont know how to run a country and dont let them fool you. alot of their friends are millionaires as they are millionaires themselves.
[further discussion?] @ around 13:00 'democracy v autocracies' what about the perpetual confusion brought about by multiple contrary views having more of a controlling effect by creating doubt and uncertainty having a disabling effect and requiring more time, so much time that decision making becomes nearly impossible and then decision maker relies on 'expert' opinion or anyone giving off the impression of being trustworthy, thereby reducing autonomy for better or worse...???
Oh, honey, total urbanization of our planet is not a great thing. It spells doom for our world and our society. We need biodiversity for so many reasons.
Why is it that ONLY people on the left are allowed to participate in these discussions about partisanship and media influence on the culture? Why does "diversity" never include socially conservative commentators?
Finally, I finally chanced upon some discussion of the Sociology of this present era. I've searched for 6 years. (I'm not connected to any Academic Sociology venue. I turned off MS News in 2012 and cut back Social Media to a 1/week short visit. I shall save the links/details Beth Sociology/Behavioralist with degrees also in Journalism and History University of Memphis, Alumni PS: (Have I found my desired resource and advisor for my book?)
advertising should be neither a "threat" nor a "nuisance", it should be an "asset" where the content could be Challenged for veracity that is the key to disrupting the surveillance economy using the Constructive Web
my generation saw this mid 1980 but no listening and utter political nasty response. I am a landscape Architect and Planner. So few would listen to us dismissed as High Idealists. Fuck We tried
People are like patches of soil capable of germinating both weeds and herbs, flowers and thistles. All manner of seeds can take root where no 'inner gardener' is present to prosper or deny cultivation...
Haidt: We can't share stories anymore. There is no common understanding.... we would be so far surpassing the speed limit on human sociality....we can't adapt to changes that fast.... I think the conservatives are right that social order is very hard to build very easy to destroy. And right now we are destroying it right, left, and center....
I agree that things changed with the internet and especially there AI and algorithms, but to be completely fair, "cancel culture" has been around a long long time, where people's jobs and careers and even lives we're always at stake. So they part is nothing new. I think a "new" idea that's crept in is this notion that you have a right to your job or career and can otherwise use free speech with impunity. It takes the classic free speech of the state not being able to persecute you, to a radical form of free speech in which they believe no one is allowed to also use their free speech to verbally persecute you. In other words, all we have with Twitter and the algorithms is an exponentiator of free speech, so thebidea thst we hsve to somehow get the goverbment ti stufke thst is itself an attemot to infringe upon the right. A cold soup of irony that is for some reason above intellectuals heads like Mr Haidt, as much as I otherwise respect his work. As a psychologist he ought to know that words can and do harm, and can therefore be violence. The trick and answer is the IS political system at least is that the laws are required to be hands off - legislation for or against this stuff can't be implemented without effectively persecuting one side or the other or both, or otherwise throwing a wet blanket on free speech a d public discourse in general. But how society gets through this period and ever works out that the other side is allowed to speech and allowed to act and boycott or vote, I don't know, but it will sort itself out eventually, or, just like these dynamics have always been with us in the past without the exponentiating factors, maybe they will stay with us and this is now just the new norm that everyone's going to have to deal with. Eventually those college kids will age and drop their activism and ideally and quiet and settle down and sometj g else will come up in a a generation. And all the ageing people that can't live without being intolerant to gays and trans etc, will die off and no longer be with us to raise such fervent and popular reaction, and the time will slowly move in and sort itself out. Haidt proved to me that kinda do not change, and there's a nature and or nurture effect to our political divides that roots deep into our personalities, it's an overall rare person that can ever "see the light" of the "other side." Maybe we can work this effectively biological and sociological divide into political solutions eventually, but I can't detail my vague ideas here as there's no real point. Just dropping my two cents for anyone that might listen. Good luck everyone. Try to be patient, humble, tolerant, either check in or check out, forgive where possible, and where you can, move on. 2014 is dead and gone and the changes are here to stay, soon these times will also be dead and gone and we'll be trying to make sense of them too. Peace. And hopefully we all make it out of this stronger, more together, and with a better world.
I agree wholeheartedly with the aspirations outlined here, but I worry that the rich somehow need to be headed off, that the sickness behind these social sicknesses is hyper-capitalism, and that it has the power to circumvent all attempts to undermine it sucking us all dry. It is the cause of the social fragmentation. The rich continue to look for ways to sell more stuff, and it's essentially that "more stuff" that's making us unhappy and alienated. I worry that the historical cycle doesn't shift by people learning to make happy adjustments to the system, it's when the poor eventually have had enough and dust off the guillotines and pitchforks and all hell breaks loose. Short of that - because you'd have to be insane to want that scenario - how do we wrest the insane power from the insane megalomaniacs building the rats' maze we're running around in? And you can't just say "Let's not do culture wars in schools" - that's a cultural, political position that lots of other people will fight you over.
I think the diagnosis was correct but none of the proposed solutions got anywhere near the mark. The internet was designed to avoid regulation and it's becoming increasingly difficult to escape. When every device in your house, car and workplace is internet enabled, we are truly imprisoned. We've got to start drawing lines and say: - No internet connectivity connected to vehicle control systems - It is illegal to cancel a user's account for activities not on the platform in question - any company that is protected by section 230 must also not be able to unilaterally close or suspend user accounts without just cause (such as suspicious activity on the account indicating a hack) - the first amendment also applies to companies protected under section 230 (though decorum rules may be enforced - I.e. no illegal speech like death threats, no swearing, age and topic appropriate speech with independent third party review processes available for mediation etc...) The problem that we have now is that with more and more of our life going online, the companies in charge have too much unilateral power over our lives. Political polarisation will always happen if people are able to choose their information sources. The fragmentation that the US and other Western countries are seeing is due to becoming evangelical Christianity vs secular humanism instead of evangelical Christianity vs mainline Christianity as it was in the past. The death of the mainline churches in the last two decades in the US has driven the democrats very far away from the republicans, who have turned to strong man politics in reaction against this. Combine this with a sense of despair amongst the youth that their living standards won't be as good as their parents or grandparents in every facet of their lives, and political stability will erode.
3:30 (2014~?) I'm pretty sure Norman Finkelstein would argue this date as I will do for him here. He was denied tenure at DePaul University as early as 2007 "because" of his views and outspokenness on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict~!! (he might as well have been fired; it is disgraceful what happened to him). And who was he is fierce disagreement with~? Of all people, the fence splitter Alan Dershowitz.
It always amazes me that Jonathon can speak for so long and so profoundly about these complex systems of feedback and mental health etc. without ever considering material and economic factors that have also coincided with these changes. 30 years of stagnant wage growth in the US, a massive economic crisis in 2008 that completely changed the opportunities for a lot of young people, just a few years before 2014 being a big turning point. Unfettered corporatism, etc...
Yes. It starts to feel like a long winded cop out or avoidance of those economic, social, political, financial, geological issues which in the final end all add up have many times the weight of the cleverly explained complex feedback loops of mental health.
Well he did say he was a liberal. They tend not focus on the underlying economic system.
The worst thing about the cultural left is that they are associated with the economic left (Socialists). The cultural left's woke shenanigans make it difficult for Socialists to be taken seriously by people who should be taking them seriously. Even if you disagree with their solutions, their critique of capitalism is worth listening to.
That's because he's a corporate apologist and propaganda artist. If you can't suss that out, he's a genius; if you can, he's ridiculous. Congrats, you figured him out.
I swear Jonathan and his wisdom has kept me sane the past 7 years haha
Excellent discussion.
Definitely helpful, not just agreement, and not just disagreement.
Genuine exploration.
I give it a 7 out of 10.
You are not political. No one wants to hear your opinions. You all have lost the trust of the society you claim to advocate and it is not coming back for you. Myself and everyone else imagines the most incompetent people gathering here around this channel and those alike. You cannot provide solutions. The best thing you can do is go away and let your failed fake ideological failure be forgotten. No one takes you serious and it will be _long_ before they ever do again. I believe this so much I have taken all this time to type it and I am still not satisfied.
you are not liberal
you are not democratic
you are not social
you are not civilized
you are not a leader
stop
what a relief
why can't I just spend my time having a couple of beers with you guys and listening to you talking and sometimes trying my chance to say a thing or two ? that what I want :)
Really interesting dialogue.... I think more and more of us are starting to feel like something has to give, this path is not sustainable. The wrong people are becoming successful and they're getting away with lies that will have detrimental effects on our future/kids. Our country/society is becoming like a department store after a disaster event where everyone is looting and just focused on what they can get for themselves now. It can be hard to resist joining a team and getting something for yourself, even though you know it's wrong.
? So what's changed in the last 2000 years?
... or 10 000 years-? Maybe it depends on where we narrow our focus: I've experienced examples of the dynamics above and--fortunately--their complete oposites. Let's aim high, mind our biases & projections, and give room for others to grow (rather than pigeon-hole & corner them in boxes). "People live up to our expectations of them."
A very very good way of putting it. America is not a country, it's a business. As a member of the American youth I can attest that it feels more and more like this country is meant for us to squeeze and loot rather than contribute to.
This is an establishment spin on what the problem is
"People are more rightwing, others are more left wing"
Nonsense that's not the problem, the problem isn't extremism, it's CONFORMISM!
Conforming to your group narratives, conforming to establishment and to authority
It's not EXTREMISTS ppl need worry most about, it's the CONFORMISTS
There just isn't enough extremists, the ORDINARY CONFORMIST in difficult economic times, that is THE group that can and do bring about genocides and Holocausts
Nothing our culture does is sustainable. Nothing.
Excellent book, really blew my mind how each generation impacts the next and how there are consistent cycles of this.
I was fortunate to have grown up in the 50s and 60s with the great outdoors as my back yard. The only requirement was that I be home at 5pm for supper. We ranged freely, without any any supervision or accountability.
Those were glory days alright. The suburbs have paved it all over now.
Jonathan Haidt is foundational in understanding and reasoning.
It seems to me that he's just above foundational. All of his ideas about democracy are rooted in an unexamined false premise, namely that one group of men can have valid authority over another based upon documents and rituals. It's an unfounded moral claim.
I have used the expression which seems appropriate for this conversation: "Do you recall how our parents taught us that it is not nice to hit someone 'below the belt?' Have you noticed how these days it seems that so many people wear their belts above their ears?"
But also the targeted hits above the ears via advertisement, propaganda and religions. These are psychological hits, hardly regulated and full of lies.
Are you a professional comedian?😄
Not sure how you can keep referring to these generational changes without crediting Howe and Strauss’ book “The Fourth Turning,” which documents at length the cycles of history you discussed and credited to others at the outset of this video.
Felt like you can distill that book to reformers and establishment , you don’t need 4 turnings
@@tonyoramos1 I’ve lived through all four. I can definitely see the differences.
‘The 4th Turning’ is very creative but it’s not a theory; it’s not falsifiable so we can’t study it. It’s basically pattern recognition
@@timrichardson518 pattern recognition = cycles of history.
technology like the Social Web breaks all historical cycles, so the only antidote is the creation of the Constructive Web for people to jump ship TO
read Art of Consensus: Crystallizing the Internet into a Constructive Web
Thank you for such an intelligent conversation about the mess we are in. I too grew up in the 1950s and have seen many cycles . It seems like what we built in the 60s and 70s has been swept away. The battles won seem lost. But still there are so many positive changes since the 50s. I need to remember the gains and think about the long game.
There have indeed been many positive changes...too bad commentators like Haidt haven't contributed to them.
They are far too busy telling the public that the problems are of our own making, rather than being created by the corporate state that he avoids talking about.
Imagine an economic system everyone can understand.
I.e. Not just the 5 percent.
Haidt's window on the world seems to be just terribly small and protected. He's probably around the same age as me, which means he would have grown up during the Satanic Panic and the rise of political evangelical Christians. Just a tad older and he would have witnessed the moral panic and political exploitation around desegregation. Before that we had anti-communist witch-hunts.
Honestly, I don't think he is actually acting in good faith... I have a really hard time imagining he is really that myopic
humans keep getting born and have to be educated ... systemic education is fundamental
Wow,-loved Jonathan's book, and this was a great discussion! Good job!
Haidt's take away that absent a major existential threat, innumerable person in 'comfortable' bunkers, humans are genetically driven to fight endlessly without innovation, is brilliant and NEEDS to be understood en mass. Wonderful talk.
I’m not sure this is a recent phenomenon. I’m not sure where the date 2014 comes from (possibly it mushroomed into being, but like a mushroom the development happens over a long period underground, out of sight).
I know nothing about the US; my experience is that I noticed this type of phenomenon in the UK around 2000, and have since learnt that there has been a deliberate movement set in motion (by the Monetarists aka Neoliberals) from about 1980 onwards. But even earlier, with the invention of “marketing” going back as far as 1960 - the art of lying convincingly and without accountability (except some organizations got caught out, like the tobacco industry, drugs companies - Thalidomide - the lead & asbestos debacles, and more recently Volkswagen and many banks like Barclays or the insurance companies and their practice of mis-selling policies or investments). Even when exposed, the punitive measures were contrived, a fine of $10 million seems satisfactory in the media, but when you realize that the perpetrators made billions in profits and killed/maimed millions of people, it’s an insult, rubbing salt in the wound. Regulations devised to address the loopholes or blatant criminality are either meaningless or repealed after a period, when few people will notice.
I’m still trying to figure out the real root of this mindless, uncritical hatred and studied stupidity. It may be the movement that gave rise to the likes of Ayn Rand, or may be the vestiges of fascism that gave rise to the Nazis, Hitler, Mussolini, McCarthy, etc. The sentiments of the Nazis survived WWII, probably exported to the US and Latin America; but we’re dormant in the British psyche too… the notion of empire and superiority (also something that shifted to the US).
On the other hand, life is far less cruel than it ever was. Poor houses for children, sweat shops, physical brutality in the home are discouraged (but still with pockets in hidden places ) and the penal system has improved hugely. Government institutions have become more tolerant towards sexuality and women and the plight of the “lesser” races.
But many people have resisted the notion of logic, science, facts, and tolerance, and the morality that comes from kindness and tolerance. Religion still has a stranglehold over the lives of too many people (yet it’s encouraging to know that more and more people are turning away from religion, so it may take another 40-50 years before the cruel and ignorant influence of religion is finally obliterated from our world).
Gotta love watching Western society collapse after just a few generations after abandoning spirituality just for people to continue blaming religion for the problem.
I can't believe people aren't happy and don't have children when they think human life is just random coincidence and none of us matter; who knew?
About 10 years ago the news media was so toxic that I turned it off. Now I am experiencing the same thing with FaceBook and Google and Instagram. I am beginning to turn it off also. Instead I read a lot. I like TH-cam channels where I can learn new things. I am optimistic that AI education will direct our minds toward learning and developing ourselves, away from social media platforms. Ultimately irrational people like in Gen-Z are confronted by reality and their delusions collapse.
I have some bad news for you about AI...
The answer to your problems is culture. Understand that art has four central functions and if you stick to them you will have a culture everyone will want to celebrate. You Americans have a wonderful popular culture. Don't allow it to be destroyed. Shared stories will give you social cohesion.
Thanks to Jonathan Haidt for leading me to this channel. Awesome, guys.
Listening to your ideas about regulating tech cost me my daily dose of hope for humanity.
So don't take any notice of him. You just might know better than him. I stopped watching sometime ago. Now I see why. Snooty guys talking about others being 'lost to civilization'. Hundred contradictions to everything Red Jumper (Jon) says but i cant be bothered. When Stewart questions him and disagrees he, Jon Haidt, swings around very fast. So, don't take him too seriously. Too many books being written these days that should have stayed trees.
Good discussion about the internet from an academic perspective. However, missing from the equation is the influence of corporate America. I think much of the 'bad stuff' happened because that's what corporations wanted (without thinking about or appreciating collateral consequences). I don't believe any of the things spoken about here to modify being online, which are perfectly fine, will fly if it goes against corporate interests, which I also think some of the solutions offered will be. You need to sell corporations it's in their quarterly - not long-term - interest to change.
For example, the algorithms exist to sell more advertising and to hell with the damage done to the common good. How do you beat that out of the minds of corporate/investor types?
I don't think you can. Its an almost impenetrably powerful addiction - the investor mindset, all encompassing. All that will stop them will be the absolute defeat and failure of their schemes and methods. The day when no one wants to buy one thing they have to sell. Boredom and satiation might just finish them.
We need good, old fashioned barn building ...with picnics, hay rides, sitting around the campfire, and with barn dances after..
You know what I mean. The modern equivalent of... provideing opportunities for people of mixed ages, to mix to help each other and to relax and celebrate after in the glow of being one..
Old, widely read, guys having a conversation about cultural/historical trends really delights me, and I don't think it is just because I'm and old guy. In my youth I was a Buckminster Fuller fanboy and I still hold the belief that humanity can be a long term success in universe. But lately this belief is shaky. I'm very worried that democracy is teetering on the edge of failure and humanity is heading towards another dark ages. And in my view social media as it has existed so far is a major culprit. I have enjoyed Dr. Haidt's writings for some years now. I think he's on the right track. Thank you all for an enlightening conversation.
I think the fact that you are here saying this is a sign of life and potential to improve it
That was very enjoyable and insightful. Wished Ian McGilchrist could have participated to share his research into the behavioral dangers he sees shaping society through social media as we become overly engaged with our left brains which manifests itself as always being right and in a virtuous way.
The blending of Jonathan’s hypothesis with McGilchrist’s insights about how the increasing dominance of left brain conditioning is leading us as a culture into destruction provides a possible handle to counter this dangerous degeneration into relativistic nihilism and self absorption.
Interesting. Stewart Brand is a forgotten or unsung hero of humanity and he'd probably rather keep it that way so don't tell anyone. I might well owe him what health and life I have.
@@puppetperception7861 As my dear old mum used to say/ or shout "NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO WILL NOT SEE".
He's only half correct, these guys need to get out of their echo chamber and do a charles kuralt in mid America. I vote not for either party but for the people who have the moral and spiritual well-being of the country as their priority ,not lining their own pockets. Both sides are guilty
But both sides are not EQUALLY guilty.
With America having only two parties that have somehow claimed ownership of democracy it has been relatively easy to corrupt politicians, but the Republican Party has clearly shown itself to be the greater threat dating back to the late Nixon era.
You are correct that voting for candidates of character, integrity and goodwill is necessary for positive change, but with the complete corporate and radical-right take-over of the Republicans it is currently impossible to find such people in that party.
The Democrats have become almost as bad since the Clinton Presidency, but there finally is a glimmer of hope with the few progressives now in office. That's why, as you suggest that much closer scrutiny of the candidates (not to mention being part of the process of nominating and supporting good candidates) is so important.
I don’t buy that both sides are guilty. One side is corrupted by dark money and greed and has lied over and over, spread hate, and taken away the rights of women to have control over their bodies.
That was the GQP I just described. They also want to take away social safety nets such as social security and Medicare. So don’t hide behind that “both sides are the same” trope.
@@ivandafoe5451 "Those damn corporate Republicans"
-The guy who votes for a party who tried to make it law that you have to consume Pfizer products to do literally anything
This is why I have an issue with his work. He seems to have heavy bias in his views. I'm not typically a fan of someone who can only call out one party, and cherry picks events/politicians to establish a narrative.
49:38 - The next period of shared stories
49:55 - Edmund Burke
51:10 - What's diverging? What's converging?
56:38 - Joseph Campbell
Wealth and technology make it easier to self-sort and to intellectually/culturally silo. Without the tug of an opposing opinion it's easier to drift to the extreme. In fact, saying something extreme is beneficial because it proves your purity and thereby raises your status in your group.
Some smart people are kind and compassionate and generally work toward making everyone's lives better.
Some smart people are, for whatever reasons, much more selfish and uncompassionate and manipulate the ignorant to enrich and empower themselves without true regard for the betterment of all...
-weezi-💖🙏💜🙏🤠
Where are the smart but considerate people, those who champion cooperation. Why are they not emerging as our political & social leaders?
this comment says nothing. it was not even a positive statement. you just point you old decrepit finger around and repeat the current thing. This is common everyone for some reason and all of you really want to "do something about it” or something but not you personally.
I don’t think they’re blaming social media if you listen to what they’re saying they’re saying that it started 20 years prior to social media being big and the groundwork was laid by Newt Gingrich and social media was like pouring gasoline on the fire for the polarization. He laid it out pretty well.
Gingrich came to power within the Republican Party because of how House Democrats handled the 1984 recount for the 8th Congressional district. This recount also explains why the Republican Party believes so strongly that there is voter fraud.
For something scary read NYT’s “Bing’s A.I. Chat Reveals Its Feelings: ‘I Want to Be Alive.”
The world has definitely gone downhill since the internet and social media became entrenched in everything and everyone.
But where? And from? Viewed?
you will never name any people responsible. you yourself are avoiding accountability. everyone like you and everyone politician you allow to misrepresent you and me but not much longer
Talking about free range parenting, my mother walked me to kindergarten the first two or three days. Then she asked me if I could get myself to school. I said I could, and I did. Recently I lived in an apartment complex where the school bus drove through stopping at the management office. The mothers would drive from their apartments, no more than 100 yards, and wait for their children to get off the bus. One day the bus disgorged the children and one child, maybe six or seven years old, didn't see his mother and began screaming as loud as he could "Mommy where are you".
Always appreciate Jonathan's sober and honest analysis
36:30 Marshall McLuhan in UNDERSTANDING MEDIA credited Mad magazine with inspiring cynicism towards advertising in the youth of America.
Prof. Haidt spins a convincing tale to back up his hypotheses. Too bad he always fails to place the blame where it rightfully belongs...with the corporate state that has allowed him to flourish as a commentator on social issues...as long he NEVER blames them for any of our problems.
Why should he? it's bleeding obvious. We're not at Speakers Corner.
You hit the nail on the head! I couldn’t get past 10 minutes when I heard egregious bias. Jill said it succinctly
As long as we seek to place blame instead taking responsibility... we cannot heal and grow.
@@glendagraves1637 yep. Also, positive waves are a better weapon.
@@arvindparthasarathy2862 Nice. Please keep proving my point. There is a nugget of good inside you. We just saw it.
Haidt on the problem with twitter: The extremists on twitter have a hundred times more influence than the average person.
As a responsible parent this is teaching grandma to suck eggs, but it is shocking that in my children’s peer circle I was considered to be a Victorian father. No phone (let alone social media) at all until 15, outdoor sporting activities. No video games before 12 and thereafter limited to 1 hour a day. No tv at all. Early years (pre 5) piano, arts, puzzles, 3 Rs, a bit of soft “bullying” 8-12 to toughen the character. Then 12-18, all the classic literature and philosophy that the schools are too lazy to teach.
Kids are now distinguished maths academics, nothing like their anxiety laden peers having panic attacks and wanting to cut their male organs off. It’s really not difficult.
Just another outlet for Haidt speech!
If you're able to get out, it's time. Sadly.
I remember the 1980s when apathy was a normative threat. Now pathetic discourse is the problem. What is lacking is the crucible of logic. Instead we have a commercial outrage marketing sector.
Thanks for the discussion. We are big fans of JH. Cheers!
I love how being based at all makes you extreme far right. They even call congressmen far right, trying to make it a thing.
Haidt continually fails in this department.
"If things keep going this way, 100% of everyone will be depressed and suicidal."
So is it the people or the system that should change? I'm pretty sure someone wrote a book about capitalism around a century ago that predicted this. I think... Hmm.
We've had capitalism a long time and depression levels have varied tremendously. I also haven't seen much evidence they are lower under any other system. That doesn't mean our solutions cannot be at a societal level. Research has shown people are happiest when pursuing a goal that seems reasonably within reach, not liberated from the need to have goals at all.
Not necessarily true, but marxists and absolutism can’t name a better duo
@@baigandinel7956 capitalism has evolved. Started big with Raygun and his trickle down bull. Further empowered by oligarchs and lobbyists. We are living in the end stages of capitalism. All wealth has been hoarded by the one percent leaving a class divide that became the perfect storm to produce the orange menace. China will lead the next century whether we like it or not.
@@tracyday6710 Most people agree corruption exists. Marxist types say it is an inevitable result of capitalism; others have different diagnoses and more surgical solutions. There is no inescapable reason we could not return to a better way of doing things as in the past. Governments instituted to end capitalism have never historically been any less corrupt, and that only concentrates power far more than it is under the 1 percent. I do not think the Chinese are any happier than we. The correlation between money and happiness is not absolute. In many Latin American countries for example, that are perfectly capitalist, people report greater happiness. It's because they hug a person when they meet them, have family in their life, fill their lives with song, etc.
I'm always amazed at those who blame capitalism as the cause of our and the world's problems. It's not the failure of capitalism, it's a failure of government. The government is suppose to regulate capitalism. If it fails to regulate capitalism so that it produces bad results, that is a failure of government. In fact, governments are made of the same bad behaving people as businesses are. It least in capitalism, the consumer has some choice whether to enter into a contract with a particular business. If government made the decisions instead of numerous businesses, there would be no choice but to obey. Those who want to see some form of socialism actually want to be able to make everyone else behave according to their personal values. That is, they really want to be tyrants but disguise their motivation as concern for the welfare of the less fortunate. People almost always deny their true motives, it the motives are not socially acceptable. They even hide them from themselves, even when they are obvious, as in the case described above. There has never been a tyrant who didn't believe he was doing what was best for his people. It is wise to always question one's own motivations.
Social death is still performed in religious cults where there is disfellowshipping and ex-communication.
Haidt's characterization of the present day right is dishonest & absurd
It's uncanny how the stereotype never fails to hold up
Why would cool people abandon social media when proficiency with social media is what makes people cool?!
As much as I idealize Brand from the past, these old guys are just coasting at this point in their lives. Haidt is still striving.
I am rereading Richard Bernstein 's Dictatorship of Virtue. 2014? All this was in motion by the early 1990s.
good point
Yes, competition is good, there's a sick excess I often see that I just don't understand, from individual careerists relishing the relative failure of their friends or family to something like Disney wanting to dominate Netflix just because. I just pull back and say, "Why?" Why do you care so damn much? Sit down, enjoy what you have, take in the sunset, have a drink.
So its not good.
"Once information is out, you can never get it back."
Yup. Information is a service, not a product. If you deal in information, you're only ever as valuable as the next bit of information you can come up with. Don't forget to save for your retirement.
Alas, we have failed to address the Herd of Elephants of Global Climate Destabilization. The bad news is that it's harsh weathers conforms to physical science - the good news is that that we know exactly what to do about it.
I may have conflated the good and the bad.
"the good news is that we know exactly what to do about it"
Let me guess:
More taxes, more government power, less citizen rights? Limits on products and luxuries that the rich won't have to adhere to?
More alarmism on the ocean rising from people living on beachfront property.
There is no such a thing as Government regulating Internet without censorship.
Stewart Brand: I'm increasingly in favour of no anonymity(on social media) with certain exceptions. - I totally agree with him on this!
I think that for a for a lecture about frail young people are, the guest lecturer has a very alarmist tone. I live in a very conservative are and when I went to college we had trigger warnings. Professors told us when we were about to see, read or discuss explicit content. However, for our philosophy classes or biology classes we had ppl who were allowed to exempt themselves because we were discussing Hume or evolution. Isn't that being cuddle and frail? However, I see that ppl of all ages are easily manipulated by social media, not just young ppl.
Mr. Haidt you speak to my soul.
Our current social media mindset might be called .....the Age of Indignation.
Indeed
With all due respect to Jonathan Haidt whom I respect for his intellectual honesty, he needs to stop viewing the past 50 or 60 years through rose colored glasses. Yes, cancel culture has become more extreme and pervasive now that it is being reinforced by the left wing social media managers in silicon valley, but things were already moving in that direction when "politically correct" speech codes were taking over college campuses and conservative speakers would sometimes be disinvited or shouted down if they were allowed to speak. And even going back to the 1970s, intelligence researchers and sociobiologists sometimes were subjected to mass protests on campus and even death threats. So this is not a new trend, just one that Dr. Haidt apparently was blind to until it reached its most recent extreme, and whether or not it is at high tide or will wax even worse in the years ahead, God only knows.
Very interesting discussion. I liked the analogy of trying to make new rules for competitive game under changing circumstances. The new rules need to be able to keep the competitors engaged in the game, otherwise players are simply playing with themselves and do not develop to their full potential
Those of us that grew up in gun country ran in the fields. My mom would not let me have a toy gun, only a real gun. She didn’t want me to confuse the 2. School was cancelled on the first day of hunting season, because we all hunted, well some of the girls didn’t.
I grew up in that also. Totally different from the new gun culture the NRA has decided upon.
@@mtn1793 the NRA doesn't matter
22:50 Jon sais "The left is more overprotective of their children". I am curious how he has come to that conclusion. From my reading it's the conservatives that are protective (they reason from protectionism and norms after all) and the liberals that keep their doors open and let the children run in and out without super vision (they reason from openness to experience after all). I was raised by a hippie mom and she was letting me run out into the ocean by myself since I was 5. I've nearly drowned at least 10 times but none the less I was definitely not over protected. It was when I stay the night at religious/conservative friends' houses we weren't allowed to do shit but watch tv.
I think we will find a reversing trending in the last several years of the move towards less human violence.
I grew up in 705 So we had little Supervision and managed group activities but also no tech. Games outside are great but so structured is dim
you don’t need to tell us. everyone here is a boomer except me.
11 of the 12 men who landed on the moon had been boy scouts .. it used to be a place for boys to be amongst themselves outdoors while learning valuable skills and challenging themselves without interference, then some brainiac got the idea that it would be ok for girls to join up thereby defeating the one space for boys that was theirs .. the decline of another american institution ...
Peaceful planets , their creation, a large part has to do with how the children are raised.
as we all know of course 🙂
When our mothers hate us... Sons fall apart...
I appreciated the section where Jonathan Haidt spoke about competition and human nature. It made me wonder about his opinions of collaboration and human nature in relation to competition...(around the 53min mark)
The human species - another go back to the drawing board moment - thinks God.
Jonathan Haidt is very insightful, but his repeated claims that Rightist militias are a threat to democracy is delusional.
Fantastic! Thank you gentlemen
It is odd that everyone assumes we are going to be able to continue to make semiconductors and advanced computers into the future, even though their manufacture requires a global trade network that is breaking down and massive numbers of highly-trained engineers who are aging out with no replacement. Neon has gone up 20X in the only available market, China, which is needed to focus the lasers to manufacture semiconductors.
Technologies, even military technologies, do not self-perpetuate without organized and intentional action. The larger the required scale of the technology, the more effort is required. Computer technology has only ever existed in the most globalized era of history, why do all these prognosticators have such confidence that will continue?
We're in an "everything" bubble and it's about to pop.
The brief mention of advertising reminds me....part of 1950s monoculture was made possible by the fact that television shows were largely sponsored by one company. That company was who you complained to when a joke was off color or risqué. So, that company could dictate content, dictate it so that it had broad appeal (and was perhaps boring). But when advertising gets broken into a dozen 30-second blocks then it's more difficult for a consumer to complain about content and its much easier for the risqué content producer to find an advertiser who can afford to step into a 30 second spot abandoned by a consumer-responsive advertiser.
I am quite encouraged by polling that shows we are hugely in the middle with small fringes. For example 70% support women’s rights to choose.
We are in a moment that seems unique In human history. Of course, we don’t and can’t know whether that is true or not. We are part of a fairly good accumulation of fairly objective data about fairly deep and wide information (although there are significant numbers who disagree). Unfortunately, our data regarding most of human social history, prior to about 600 years ago, is fragmentary, often unclear, and otherwise not good for guidances. So, many of us are trying to build a better ship (as others have in the past), on a hull that was launched long ago, even as a large number of the crew are working from very different blueprints.
Prof. Haidt's assertions beg a few questions.
And thousands of earth's species and wild areas disappearing from face of earth daily forever
I’m early in the convo so maybe this will eventually be addressed, but it seems like something that would be accounted for from the outset if it were truly considered:
Academia being held to account for its role in upholding structural inequality, unchecked for centuries, isn’t the ‘fault’ of social media. Social media eliminated the division between people who always recognized this problem but we’re isolated. that worked in academia’s favor for a very long time, but to think institutions wouldn’t meet a day where this would be socially rectified is elitist, inept and delusional.
If institutions had addressed the concrete discrepancies on their own, there wouldn’t have been such a boiling point. Now you have to deal with everything all at once and it’s overwhelming and institutions deserve to be overwhelmed with facing themselves in the mirror.
Equality isn't a good to be doled out like potatoes by some all-powerful centralized unit, but inequality occurs within nature, and as a result of the laws of causality. As Douglas Murray put it, equality is a worthy value but makes little sense as the bedrock for all morality. Equality by itself would never have advanced civilization to its current state in one million years. Most importantly, "equality" is not the most important mission of the university, but uncorrupted knowledge. Discussions about equality at the university need to take place in a way that retains the utmost respect for the integrity of the processes for knowledge acquisition in the first place, rather than propagandizing.
problem is alot of liberals are getting democracy and socialism mixed up
While conservatives mix socialism with totalitarianism and anything else they hate
You might be somewhat right if you said liberal democracy, which is what we have, a democracy for the wealthy, much like the democracy of slave owners in the south. Under socialism that switches: slaves become workers and owners become slaves. The underclass becomes the ruling class, securing communism. Under communism those slaves assimilate into common society. Council communism is specifically direct democracy.
@@ZalamaTheDragonGod you seem to forget that we are run by a government that has no policy and they dont know how to run a country and dont let them fool you. alot of their friends are millionaires as they are millionaires themselves.
[further discussion?] @ around 13:00 'democracy v autocracies' what about the perpetual confusion brought about by multiple contrary views having more of a controlling effect by creating doubt and uncertainty having a disabling effect and requiring more time, so much time that decision making becomes nearly impossible and then decision maker relies on 'expert' opinion or anyone giving off the impression of being trustworthy, thereby reducing autonomy for better or worse...???
Oh, honey, total urbanization of our planet is not a great thing. It spells doom for our world and our society. We need biodiversity for so many reasons.
Why is it that ONLY people on the left are allowed to participate in these discussions about partisanship and media influence on the culture? Why does "diversity" never include socially conservative commentators?
Finally, I finally chanced upon some discussion of the Sociology of this present era. I've searched for 6 years. (I'm not connected to any Academic Sociology venue.
I turned off MS News in 2012 and cut back Social Media to a 1/week short visit.
I shall save the links/details
Beth
Sociology/Behavioralist
with degrees also in Journalism and History
University of Memphis, Alumni
PS: (Have I found my desired resource and advisor for my book?)
WE COOPERATE BEST WHEN WE COOPERATE.
advertising should be neither a "threat" nor a "nuisance", it should be an "asset" where the content could be Challenged for veracity
that is the key to disrupting the surveillance economy using the Constructive Web
A lovely discourse!
That was a brilliant conversation
Not really.
Nobody but nobody changes unless they have a WANT TO. If you don’t have a WANT TO nobody changes.
How do you there speakers think about Yugal Harari s Homo Deus .....and the implicit exceptance that there is no greater being or spirit ?
newsub here. Why/how have I missed THIS channel?
Is TH-cam social media? If so it is a good one I think.
my generation saw this mid 1980 but no listening and utter political nasty response. I am a landscape Architect and Planner. So few would listen to us dismissed as High Idealists. Fuck We tried
The Well!
I didn't get flamed off, but there were a few rough patches. YMMV ☺️
When doing chin-ups on a pull-up bar, I was always told to keep my head up, the more I did. The more I got sucker-punched by the elite
i disagree with the statement that flexible game rules are 'civilized'. completely wrong. civilization kills that kind of flexibility.
People are like patches of soil capable of germinating both weeds and herbs, flowers and thistles. All manner of seeds can take root where no 'inner gardener' is present to prosper or deny cultivation...
Haidt: We can't share stories anymore. There is no common understanding.... we would be so far surpassing the speed limit on human sociality....we can't adapt to changes that fast.... I think the conservatives are right that social order is very hard to build very easy to destroy. And right now we are destroying it right, left, and center....
I love these gentlemen. No homo.
I agree that things changed with the internet and especially there AI and algorithms, but to be completely fair, "cancel culture" has been around a long long time, where people's jobs and careers and even lives we're always at stake. So they part is nothing new. I think a "new" idea that's crept in is this notion that you have a right to your job or career and can otherwise use free speech with impunity. It takes the classic free speech of the state not being able to persecute you, to a radical form of free speech in which they believe no one is allowed to also use their free speech to verbally persecute you. In other words, all we have with Twitter and the algorithms is an exponentiator of free speech, so thebidea thst we hsve to somehow get the goverbment ti stufke thst is itself an attemot to infringe upon the right. A cold soup of irony that is for some reason above intellectuals heads like Mr Haidt, as much as I otherwise respect his work. As a psychologist he ought to know that words can and do harm, and can therefore be violence. The trick and answer is the IS political system at least is that the laws are required to be hands off - legislation for or against this stuff can't be implemented without effectively persecuting one side or the other or both, or otherwise throwing a wet blanket on free speech a d public discourse in general. But how society gets through this period and ever works out that the other side is allowed to speech and allowed to act and boycott or vote, I don't know, but it will sort itself out eventually, or, just like these dynamics have always been with us in the past without the exponentiating factors, maybe they will stay with us and this is now just the new norm that everyone's going to have to deal with. Eventually those college kids will age and drop their activism and ideally and quiet and settle down and sometj g else will come up in a a generation. And all the ageing people that can't live without being intolerant to gays and trans etc, will die off and no longer be with us to raise such fervent and popular reaction, and the time will slowly move in and sort itself out. Haidt proved to me that kinda do not change, and there's a nature and or nurture effect to our political divides that roots deep into our personalities, it's an overall rare person that can ever "see the light" of the "other side." Maybe we can work this effectively biological and sociological divide into political solutions eventually, but I can't detail my vague ideas here as there's no real point. Just dropping my two cents for anyone that might listen. Good luck everyone. Try to be patient, humble, tolerant, either check in or check out, forgive where possible, and where you can, move on. 2014 is dead and gone and the changes are here to stay, soon these times will also be dead and gone and we'll be trying to make sense of them too. Peace. And hopefully we all make it out of this stronger, more together, and with a better world.
I agree wholeheartedly with the aspirations outlined here, but I worry that the rich somehow need to be headed off, that the sickness behind these social sicknesses is hyper-capitalism, and that it has the power to circumvent all attempts to undermine it sucking us all dry. It is the cause of the social fragmentation. The rich continue to look for ways to sell more stuff, and it's essentially that "more stuff" that's making us unhappy and alienated. I worry that the historical cycle doesn't shift by people learning to make happy adjustments to the system, it's when the poor eventually have had enough and dust off the guillotines and pitchforks and all hell breaks loose. Short of that - because you'd have to be insane to want that scenario - how do we wrest the insane power from the insane megalomaniacs building the rats' maze we're running around in? And you can't just say "Let's not do culture wars in schools" - that's a cultural, political position that lots of other people will fight you over.
I think the diagnosis was correct but none of the proposed solutions got anywhere near the mark. The internet was designed to avoid regulation and it's becoming increasingly difficult to escape. When every device in your house, car and workplace is internet enabled, we are truly imprisoned.
We've got to start drawing lines and say:
- No internet connectivity connected to vehicle control systems
- It is illegal to cancel a user's account for activities not on the platform in question
- any company that is protected by section 230 must also not be able to unilaterally close or suspend user accounts without just cause (such as suspicious activity on the account indicating a hack)
- the first amendment also applies to companies protected under section 230 (though decorum rules may be enforced - I.e. no illegal speech like death threats, no swearing, age and topic appropriate speech with independent third party review processes available for mediation etc...)
The problem that we have now is that with more and more of our life going online, the companies in charge have too much unilateral power over our lives.
Political polarisation will always happen if people are able to choose their information sources. The fragmentation that the US and other Western countries are seeing is due to becoming evangelical Christianity vs secular humanism instead of evangelical Christianity vs mainline Christianity as it was in the past. The death of the mainline churches in the last two decades in the US has driven the democrats very far away from the republicans, who have turned to strong man politics in reaction against this.
Combine this with a sense of despair amongst the youth that their living standards won't be as good as their parents or grandparents in every facet of their lives, and political stability will erode.
My grandkids are gen Z and they are strong brilliant and believe in social Justice
Web 3 is a powerful social technology. It brings trust to the internet.
3:30 (2014~?) I'm pretty sure Norman Finkelstein would argue this date as I will do for him here. He was denied tenure at DePaul University as early as 2007 "because" of his views and outspokenness on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict~!! (he might as well have been fired; it is disgraceful what happened to him). And who was he is fierce disagreement with~? Of all people, the fence splitter Alan Dershowitz.