Bryan Caplan’s The Case Against Education is a worthwhile read on this topic. If a hardcore libertarian like Caplan and a Marxist like DeBoer agree on an issue, maybe one should take note.
The interesting thing is that as soon as someone speaks from a position of reason, trying to understand, not putting themselves in the role of a victim, then whether you are a liberal or a conservative, then you can identify with the vast majority of what was said during the conversation. And if by chance you don't, then you're perfectly fine with hearing and respecting that opinion. Of course, there are extreme cases among both conservatives and liberals, but that's the minority. If anyone can build a bridge between a divided society, it's people like Coleman Hughles. In general, it seems to me that once someone makes an honest attempt to seek "truth" and is grounded in reality, the division between liberals and conservatives becomes meaningless. There is only an honest effort to seek what is right and will help people. And everyone can identify with that. For the record, I'm from Europe, and I count myself among the center-right liberals, but I'm more of a conservative by US optics. And I didn't hear anything in this conversation that I disagreed with.
I have been banging on about this for years. I live in Québec (Canada) where education is heavily funded by the state, making college and university almost free compared to the US (around 3k per semester). For middle class and upper middle class people, going to university is not even a question, it’s just the natural next step in a young person’s education, you don’t really know why you’re going, but you’re supposed to go and you do. Most parents can afford to pay for it, and the idea of their child not attending university barely crosses their mind. Meanwhile our industrial and trades sector is dying, due to a cruel lack of workforce. Our service sector also struggles to find staff, once the university kids graduate they don’t want to wait tables anymore. On the other hand we have an over inflated bureaucratic class, filled with university graduates shuffling virtual paper at a desk, with stagnant wages that dont make up for 4 years of missed income. I would know, I’m one of those graduates.
Well this is the same thing in most of Europe. It's better to have free/very cheap higher education for those who want it than the alternative which is the American system where going to uni will chain you to insane debt. I would not trade this system for that in a million years. Now, you could add incentives so people would more often pick industrial or other sectors instead of going to college or do some other schemes if you need more people to work as plumbers, electricians, et cetera. The price of education is only one factor when people pick their career paths.
"industrial and trades sector is dying, due to a cruel lack of workforce" -- Nonsense. There is a lack of rich people willing to give adequate pay for hard work, that's the only problem.
Also from Quebec here, and I doubt the problem is with the desire to study at university. A more educated population is a great thing. A bit of historical context would help. University as an institution of Western civilization for the past 1000 years hasn't been about serving the economy's demands. That's a recent reorientation. Whether tuition is subsidized or not, the problem remains that the economy is spinning off on its own profit-making logic. Lots of corporate jobs appear meaningless and crushing, because that's how money is made, selling toxic crap that no one needs. A few years expanding ones mind in university starts to look pretty good by comparison...
There is a video where they compare the real income after educational expenses of a PhD and a plumber. They're comparable and you don't have to deal with the egos of academics if you're a plumber. That's definitely a plus in terms of quality of life. The plumber is making money, has a wife, has a house, has kids at an age when the PhD is working for slave wages and paying off loans and has no life. A PhD only starts catching up when they're old. It's better to have a life when you're young.
Your show is really well done. Thanks 🙂 Also, props to ya for the CC. It's helpful to many people.... Plus, it's true; all my army combat boots, and Western button ups are made in China. I came from a Delphi Plant Union town. They closed up shop and the town was wiped out. Dual feelings: This is America, We are luckier than most.
I used to love this guy’s website. I got his first book, didn’t know there is a second. I gotta say regarding college,… if you can do it, the jobs you get after are super easy.
@@chipcook5346 - To clarify, Chip Cook, the higher the pay, the easier the jobs have been. If the pay is higher and the job is easier, what makes you think it was the wrong jobs? This might be the new normal for recent college graduates. There was a TikTokker who documented her work days and most of it was going from one free work buffet to another.
Its like telling everyone to learn to code. Mike Rowe has solutions. There are lots of jobs out there. We need to push vo/tech. Instead of telling all kids they need to go to college. People like to dismiss people who work with their hands until their AC goes out or their car breaks down.
Some working-class jobs (e.g. plumbers and car mechanics) can't be shipped overseas, but we've shrunk their availability and made many less attainable via various barriers (e.g. occupational licensing). Second, high schools are not teaching kids enough, requiring college as a continuation. Third, women today are less in need of husbands (what man today could fix the car?), so their standards have risen--they want a guy with a college degree, not a guy who gets his hands dirty. These factors are unlikely to change.
It’s interesting to me that the student saw a career in “writing” to be more certain than a career that his father literally was actively doing. Given that the student was aimed at writing, I think it’s fair to assume that the comment was less ironic than presented. In either case, it feels like a false equivalency to say “writing” or “college versus fishing” because of the number of other potential professions. College is too expensive, and federal loan forgiveness should not be aimed at degrees that are not employable or beneficial to the public in a tangible way.
Are you sure the student was seeking a career in writing? My understanding was that Freddie was, not necessarily that he was teaching writing; he may have been teaching education.
it's the same with any category of advice gurus. Any advice on getting ahead (economically, socially, romantically) hit the problem of 'what if everyone else is doing the same thing?'. It just heats up the arms race. It becomes crueller if you spend 10 years working like hell to compete at the upper edge of human performance and the wave of progress you're part of results in technology that automates your job.
I'm gonna stop you right there friends. Marx's Critique of the Gothe Programme exclusively deals with innate differences in people and how to build a viable society around those differences. Read and critique Marx instead of critiquing the version of Marx you've formed in your heads from over the years of RW demonising him.
Knew he had no idea about Marxist thought after his very first sentence. I mean the most basic understanding of Marx would know the phrase “from each according to their ABILITY, to each according to their need” That’s a pretty straightforward recognition that different people have different abilities while others may have more needs (like kids, the elderly, disabled individuals, etc)
"From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs", Karl Marx 1875. The initial idea is obviously completely wrong :) I don't understand why people in the US miss completely what Marxism is and is about.
Bryan Caplan’s The Case Against Education is a worthwhile read on this topic. If a hardcore libertarian like Caplan and a Marxist like DeBoer agree on an issue, maybe one should take note.
The interesting thing is that as soon as someone speaks from a position of reason, trying to understand, not putting themselves in the role of a victim, then whether you are a liberal or a conservative, then you can identify with the vast majority of what was said during the conversation. And if by chance you don't, then you're perfectly fine with hearing and respecting that opinion.
Of course, there are extreme cases among both conservatives and liberals, but that's the minority.
If anyone can build a bridge between a divided society, it's people like Coleman Hughles.
In general, it seems to me that once someone makes an honest attempt to seek "truth" and is grounded in reality, the division between liberals and conservatives becomes meaningless. There is only an honest effort to seek what is right and will help people. And everyone can identify with that.
For the record, I'm from Europe, and I count myself among the center-right liberals, but I'm more of a conservative by US optics. And I didn't hear anything in this conversation that I disagreed with.
I have been banging on about this for years. I live in Québec (Canada) where education is heavily funded by the state, making college and university almost free compared to the US (around 3k per semester). For middle class and upper middle class people, going to university is not even a question, it’s just the natural next step in a young person’s education, you don’t really know why you’re going, but you’re supposed to go and you do. Most parents can afford to pay for it, and the idea of their child not attending university barely crosses their mind. Meanwhile our industrial and trades sector is dying, due to a cruel lack of workforce. Our service sector also struggles to find staff, once the university kids graduate they don’t want to wait tables anymore. On the other hand we have an over inflated bureaucratic class, filled with university graduates shuffling virtual paper at a desk, with stagnant wages that dont make up for 4 years of missed income. I would know, I’m one of those graduates.
I'm from the same place and absolutely agree. Where are you from exactly? I'm in Quebec city
Well this is the same thing in most of Europe. It's better to have free/very cheap higher education for those who want it than the alternative which is the American system where going to uni will chain you to insane debt. I would not trade this system for that in a million years. Now, you could add incentives so people would more often pick industrial or other sectors instead of going to college or do some other schemes if you need more people to work as plumbers, electricians, et cetera. The price of education is only one factor when people pick their career paths.
"industrial and trades sector is dying, due to a cruel lack of workforce" -- Nonsense. There is a lack of rich people willing to give adequate pay for hard work, that's the only problem.
Also from Quebec here, and I doubt the problem is with the desire to study at university. A more educated population is a great thing.
A bit of historical context would help. University as an institution of Western civilization for the past 1000 years hasn't been about serving the economy's demands. That's a recent reorientation.
Whether tuition is subsidized or not, the problem remains that the economy is spinning off on its own profit-making logic. Lots of corporate jobs appear meaningless and crushing, because that's how money is made, selling toxic crap that no one needs. A few years expanding ones mind in university starts to look pretty good by comparison...
4:50 No, not because automation: because of unions and government regulations.
You're right. Jobs were sent offshore long before they were automated.
There is a video where they compare the real income after educational expenses of a PhD and a plumber. They're comparable and you don't have to deal with the egos of academics if you're a plumber. That's definitely a plus in terms of quality of life. The plumber is making money, has a wife, has a house, has kids at an age when the PhD is working for slave wages and paying off loans and has no life. A PhD only starts catching up when they're old. It's better to have a life when you're young.
This is quite unique to America.
Credential inflation is my new talking point. Thanks
My son is a mechanic and does very well. There is a shortage of tradespeople in my town. Vocational training can be a great career path for many
Your show is really well done. Thanks 🙂 Also, props to ya for the CC. It's helpful to many people.... Plus, it's true; all my army combat boots, and Western button ups are made in China. I came from a Delphi Plant Union town. They closed up shop and the town was wiped out. Dual feelings: This is America, We are luckier than most.
I used to love this guy’s website. I got his first book, didn’t know there is a second. I gotta say regarding college,… if you can do it, the jobs you get after are super easy.
@@chipcook5346 - To clarify, Chip Cook, the higher the pay, the easier the jobs have been. If the pay is higher and the job is easier, what makes you think it was the wrong jobs? This might be the new normal for recent college graduates. There was a TikTokker who documented her work days and most of it was going from one free work buffet to another.
Its like telling everyone to learn to code. Mike Rowe has solutions. There are lots of jobs out there. We need to push vo/tech. Instead of telling all kids they need to go to college.
People like to dismiss people who work with their hands until their AC goes out or their car breaks down.
Some working-class jobs (e.g. plumbers and car mechanics) can't be shipped overseas, but we've shrunk their availability and made many less attainable via various barriers (e.g. occupational licensing). Second, high schools are not teaching kids enough, requiring college as a continuation. Third, women today are less in need of husbands (what man today could fix the car?), so their standards have risen--they want a guy with a college degree, not a guy who gets his hands dirty. These factors are unlikely to change.
Different people are smart in different ways. Yep.
It’s interesting to me that the student saw a career in “writing” to be more certain than a career that his father literally was actively doing.
Given that the student was aimed at writing, I think it’s fair to assume that the comment was less ironic than presented. In either case, it feels like a false equivalency to say “writing” or “college versus fishing” because of the number of other potential professions.
College is too expensive, and federal loan forgiveness should not be aimed at degrees that are not employable or beneficial to the public in a tangible way.
Are you sure the student was seeking a career in writing? My understanding was that Freddie was, not necessarily that he was teaching writing; he may have been teaching education.
it's the same with any category of advice gurus. Any advice on getting ahead (economically, socially, romantically) hit the problem of 'what if everyone else is doing the same thing?'. It just heats up the arms race. It becomes crueller if you spend 10 years working like hell to compete at the upper edge of human performance and the wave of progress you're part of results in technology that automates your job.
I'm gonna stop you right there friends. Marx's Critique of the Gothe Programme exclusively deals with innate differences in people and how to build a viable society around those differences. Read and critique Marx instead of critiquing the version of Marx you've formed in your heads from over the years of RW demonising him.
Knew he had no idea about Marxist thought after his very first sentence. I mean the most basic understanding of Marx would know the phrase “from each according to their ABILITY, to each according to their need”
That’s a pretty straightforward recognition that different people have different abilities while others may have more needs (like kids, the elderly, disabled individuals, etc)
"From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs", Karl Marx 1875. The initial idea is obviously completely wrong :) I don't understand why people in the US miss completely what Marxism is and is about.
Marxism is vampirism. Materialistic and denies the individual.
Not a fan of the on-screen subtitles.
Yeah they're distracting