This is was such an excellent discussion! I hope Fr. Stephen, Yosef and Jacob continue the conversation on these topics and go down some of the roads that were touched on but left for another time.
but I really don't know if one way should be held over the other. I think they are all supposed to reflect back on one another and almost speak to and help interpret each other...at least in theory.
@almondtree Fr. De Young has made the point at various times that while “law” can be a sometimes valid translation for Torah, it’s a bit of a juridical rendering that casts a legalistic hue over the Scriptures. On average, a more accurate translation might be “teachings”. I don’t know if this casts any of the passages you’re looking at in a different light, but a lot of Romans takes on a different meaning when switching out “law” for “teachings”.
@nathandaniels4823 Thats probably helpful to me as well. I think I often translate it in my head as something like order or light. Possibly even knowledge of good an evil. So I think teachings would fit nicely as well. "That is that and this is this."
1:16:10 "He was alive once without the law/torah" I think he simply means that he was a baby once, childlike innocence. Babies have no law/torah, and no condemnation. When you give your child a new rule, then the accountability and standards for growth come, and also the temptation comes to break the rules. And we incorporate those laws (no matter how minor) into who we are as people, and who we should be. Something like when you learn a law/truth or say "i see", then you die. Its genesis stuff I believe.
Except babies DO have Torah. Circumcision at eight days at the very least... We are born into Torah. But if you believe Torah= condemnation I could see your reading. A baby doesn't have yetzers
@@yosefrazin6455 Touche hmmmm..... I was thinking Torah=law....but the nkjv says law instead of torah... So I would not be familiar with the way that you are using torah in the sense of a circumcision...could it still be used as law? Like law in terms of tradition? which is interesting... What is yetzers.
1:25:46 I wish Fr. Stephen would defend his view that the Orthodox Church has ever permitted Jewish Christians (en masse or not) to follow the Israelite specific commandments in the Torah
@ Yes. I have. I don’t think he makes any positive arguments for it in the book either. I think he proposes it and describes how it’s consistent with the rest of his understanding of Paul.
I'm pretty sure he's said that he doesn't know whether that has ever happened (and wouldn't be surprised if the opposite had even happened before), but believes it is how things would/ought to be done within his understanding of Orthodox teaching. Unfortunately I have no idea which stream/LoS episode I remember this from.
1:35:45 I think this is the same thing as my other point. A baby doesn't know what "do not covet" is. You have to teach a child not to steal another child's toy. Its not implicit that it is a "law" until it is revealed or taught.
So I listened to Father Stephens answer and I think I would disagree. I think it is about your conscience. If someone tells me "we have a law that you should not murder", I don't then get a desire to murder. I think that it is saying that there was a point (when I was a child) where all things were permissible, and I could live without conviction of sin. But when the law (do not covet) is revealed, then I have the awareness that I do sometimes desire to covet, or have coveted in the past, then I must repent (die to my old patterns) and turn back to God (or the father, if I am still using child as example), and seek forgiveness and his aid to do better and learn more.
@@almondtree What about Yosef's response, which is, you don't specficially need the Torah in order to know the law of "do not covent", weren't there Greeks who came to this conclusion apart from the Torah?
@@olubunmiolumuyiwa Yeah, thats a good point, but I don't know hebrew or greek, so a lot of this just feels like semantics to me. The way someone might use torah would be the same way they would use law. But to Jewish people that might be irresponsible. But I thought that Paul was getting more at genesis stuff in general, maybe even more metaphysical type of stuff...or essences. like light and law and torah are one.
Are we sure that the verb used for "sold" in the Greek is in the passive voice and not the middle voice? It's in the imperfect which has the same syntax for passive and the middle voice, but the middle voice would give the "sold onself" that Yosef was pointing out as lacking since the Hebrew has reflexive verbs.
I'll preface this with, I know he's of American Calvinist stock and the Lutheran tradition isn't very strong at the moment. Still it's funny to me that around 1:45 Father Stephen gives the Lutheran principal principle regarding the Baptised Life (daily dying to sin, daily rising with Him), with Baptism as Luther's chief picture of Justification, ( Luther's perfect tense of, "I am Baptised" both referring to God's work and man's changed life) then says protestants reject that.
@andrewternet8370 I'm not as high as this comment sounds, but yes; by God's work in the beginning, 2000yrs ago, 30yrs ago, last week, and by His grace tomorrow in the Absolution and Holy Communion, looking forward to being saved in the Judgement in grace upon grace.
@andrewternet8370 I offer it to Him to be recreated every Sunday, if not everyday; and lift it up to Him every Eucharist. It's not like it's my decision dictates His will. I'm more concerned with if He's accepted me into Himself, as God promises in Holy Baptism and Holy Communion.
Really enjoyed this stream. And hey, if this stream doesn't fulfill Jacob's goals, we can always have Romans Stream 2: Electric Boogaloo, or maybe Galatians Stream.
Great discourse. I really appreciate everyone here. I was wondering if the book Yosef was a referenceing was the Jewish Annotated New Testament by Amy-Jill Levine? There is the Complete Jewish Bible and a commentary by Stern that I've been thinking about. A Hebrew Roots congregation near me use them. One interesting note is they don't have the Trinity in their statement of Faith posted on their wall. They are affiliated with One for Israel and a few other Messianic groups, so they keep a version of Shabbat and few other Jewish festivals and Holy Days (of course it is their version but we've slapped our Library onto yours so why not have more reverence) . I plan to start worshipping there regularly despite the hate for HRM (Side note my family and I sporadically attend the Black Pentecostal gathering currently a house away from us). Also, I recently received Learning Biblical Hebrew and accompanying workbook by Karl V. Kutz and Rebekah L. Josberger. I'm excited to start The Study and meditation.
Many messianic congregations don't overtly speak of the Trinity because they realize it is a non-starter. They generally will speak out of both sides of their mouths. They tend to be incredibly deceptive and dishonest, which is why they end up with so many clergy scandals. Obviously, there are actually faithful people who are sometimes involved. But I would be very careful. You might want to talk with David. He was very involved with them.
Such as what? There is broad breadth in Protestant positions. My guess is that on this topic Fr De Young primarily has Lutherans and Reformed in mind, given his own Reformed background and his earlier statements that Luther fundamentally misread St Paul (buttressed by bringing up Dr Jordan Cooper, a Lutheran, in this stream).
@@pigetstuckvery obviously, yes he's studied Calvinism and the Reformed tradition; and like most protestants of his age, he's obviously familiar with American Evangelical/non-denoms (who don't have a real tradition) as well as the Pentecostals, (Anglicans are just Calvinists in Roman hats). As a Lutheran (globally an insignificant tradition today) he reads Luther through Calvin who rejects him, rather than through Luther's students Chemnitz, Gerhard, Bach et al. To most traditional Lutherans this is the highest insult.
This is such a cool conversation. I feel blessed to live in a time where I can listen to it.
This is was such an excellent discussion! I hope Fr. Stephen, Yosef and Jacob continue the conversation on these topics and go down some of the roads that were touched on but left for another time.
1:00:00 I think going into the book of Hosea and St. Paul's understanding and uses of it in Romans would be helpful in this discussion about marriage.
Fr Stephen joins 4:57
Mr Footwear, please add the pre-game and introduction to the playlist 🙏
Really great conversation
Ah, the clip function is missing. 1:00:27 - 1:00:33 has branding material potential.
“We love crying babies here. That’s what this channel is for.”
I was once in a synagogue and the Rabbi complained about the crying baby. I decided never to go to one of his services again.
1:19:30
But does EO elevate the Torah over the Gospels?
"looking through the glass backwards" type of stuff.
but I really don't know if one way should be held over the other. I think they are all supposed to reflect back on one another and almost speak to and help interpret each other...at least in theory.
@almondtree Fr. De Young has made the point at various times that while “law” can be a sometimes valid translation for Torah, it’s a bit of a juridical rendering that casts a legalistic hue over the Scriptures. On average, a more accurate translation might be “teachings”.
I don’t know if this casts any of the passages you’re looking at in a different light, but a lot of Romans takes on a different meaning when switching out “law” for “teachings”.
@nathandaniels4823 Thats probably helpful to me as well. I think I often translate it in my head as something like order or light. Possibly even knowledge of good an evil. So I think teachings would fit nicely as well. "That is that and this is this."
2:20:55 Is that a reference to Dave Rubin commenting on the conversation with Eric and Brett Weinstein?
Father Stephen's pop culture references always throw me for a loop.
1:01:00
I should preface that I am LOVING this convo so far, but I would agree with Yosef that this is a hard sell for me.
That's a cute baby. God bless
Yosef looks a lot like me, to the point it was a little disconcerting seeing myself in this stream that I was not awake for.
Well now I'm really curious lol Been awhile since I knew of a doppleganger
1:16:10
"He was alive once without the law/torah"
I think he simply means that he was a baby once, childlike innocence.
Babies have no law/torah, and no condemnation. When you give your child a new rule, then the accountability and standards for growth come, and also the temptation comes to break the rules. And we incorporate those laws (no matter how minor) into who we are as people, and who we should be. Something like when you learn a law/truth or say "i see", then you die. Its genesis stuff I believe.
Except babies DO have Torah. Circumcision at eight days at the very least... We are born into Torah. But if you believe Torah= condemnation I could see your reading. A baby doesn't have yetzers
@@yosefrazin6455 Touche
hmmmm..... I was thinking Torah=law....but the nkjv says law instead of torah...
So I would not be familiar with the way that you are using torah in the sense of a circumcision...could it still be used as law? Like law in terms of tradition? which is interesting...
What is yetzers.
1:25:46 I wish Fr. Stephen would defend his view that the Orthodox Church has ever permitted Jewish Christians (en masse or not) to follow the Israelite specific commandments in the Torah
Did you read the Paul book?
@ Yes. I have. I don’t think he makes any positive arguments for it in the book either. I think he proposes it and describes how it’s consistent with the rest of his understanding of Paul.
I'm pretty sure he's said that he doesn't know whether that has ever happened (and wouldn't be surprised if the opposite had even happened before), but believes it is how things would/ought to be done within his understanding of Orthodox teaching. Unfortunately I have no idea which stream/LoS episode I remember this from.
@@josephavila6793 You could see why I’d like a more in depth argument for his argument as opposed to just stating it.
@@garrett2514 If you check out the Lord of Spirits Torah series episodes 87-88), I believe he does so there.
1:35:45
I think this is the same thing as my other point. A baby doesn't know what "do not covet" is. You have to teach a child not to steal another child's toy. Its not implicit that it is a "law" until it is revealed or taught.
So I listened to Father Stephens answer and I think I would disagree. I think it is about your conscience. If someone tells me "we have a law that you should not murder", I don't then get a desire to murder. I think that it is saying that there was a point (when I was a child) where all things were permissible, and I could live without conviction of sin. But when the law (do not covet) is revealed, then I have the awareness that I do sometimes desire to covet, or have coveted in the past, then I must repent (die to my old patterns) and turn back to God (or the father, if I am still using child as example), and seek forgiveness and his aid to do better and learn more.
@@almondtree What about Yosef's response, which is, you don't specficially need the Torah in order to know the law of "do not covent", weren't there Greeks who came to this conclusion apart from the Torah?
@@olubunmiolumuyiwa Yeah, thats a good point, but I don't know hebrew or greek, so a lot of this just feels like semantics to me. The way someone might use torah would be the same way they would use law. But to Jewish people that might be irresponsible. But I thought that Paul was getting more at genesis stuff in general, maybe even more metaphysical type of stuff...or essences.
like light and law and torah are one.
@@almondtree I mean, I've definitely sucked my own cuts after learning about the Noahide Laws to see what God would do. Hopefully He has mercy on me.
Are we sure that the verb used for "sold" in the Greek is in the passive voice and not the middle voice? It's in the imperfect which has the same syntax for passive and the middle voice, but the middle voice would give the "sold onself" that Yosef was pointing out as lacking since the Hebrew has reflexive verbs.
I'll preface this with, I know he's of American Calvinist stock and the Lutheran tradition isn't very strong at the moment.
Still it's funny to me that around 1:45 Father Stephen gives the Lutheran principal principle regarding the Baptised Life (daily dying to sin, daily rising with Him), with Baptism as Luther's chief picture of Justification, ( Luther's perfect tense of, "I am Baptised" both referring to God's work and man's changed life) then says protestants reject that.
Are you saved bro?
@andrewternet8370 I'm not as high as this comment sounds, but yes; by God's work in the beginning, 2000yrs ago, 30yrs ago, last week, and by His grace tomorrow in the Absolution and Holy Communion, looking forward to being saved in the Judgement in grace upon grace.
@@j.g.4942 But have you accepted Jesus into your heart bro?
@andrewternet8370 I offer it to Him to be recreated every Sunday, if not everyday; and lift it up to Him every Eucharist.
It's not like it's my decision dictates His will.
I'm more concerned with if He's accepted me into Himself, as God promises in Holy Baptism and Holy Communion.
1:43:40 I think everyone will fully keep Torah in the end
What about John the Baptist?
@ him too.
@@WhiteStoneName are there Nazerites in heaven?
@ can you just say explicitly what you’re getting at? Cause I’m not following.
Really enjoyed this stream. And hey, if this stream doesn't fulfill Jacob's goals, we can always have Romans Stream 2: Electric Boogaloo, or maybe Galatians Stream.
1:27:00 I’d very much like to know the title of the book Yosef mentions
I asked Yosef.
Holy Russia, Sacred Israel by Dominic Rubin
@@faturechi many thanks
@@yosefrazin6455 Thanks!
Great discourse. I really appreciate everyone here. I was wondering if the book Yosef was a referenceing was the Jewish Annotated New Testament by Amy-Jill Levine? There is the Complete Jewish Bible and a commentary by Stern that I've been thinking about. A Hebrew Roots congregation near me use them. One interesting note is they don't have the Trinity in their statement of Faith posted on their wall. They are affiliated with One for Israel and a few other Messianic groups, so they keep a version of Shabbat and few other Jewish festivals and Holy Days (of course it is their version but we've slapped our Library onto yours so why not have more reverence) . I plan to start worshipping there regularly despite the hate for HRM (Side note my family and I sporadically attend the Black Pentecostal gathering currently a house away from us). Also, I recently received Learning Biblical Hebrew and accompanying workbook by Karl V. Kutz and Rebekah L. Josberger. I'm excited to start The Study and meditation.
Yes I did mean the one that Amy Jill Levine edited
@@yosefrazin6455I appreciate it, Yosef.
Many messianic congregations don't overtly speak of the Trinity because they realize it is a non-starter. They generally will speak out of both sides of their mouths. They tend to be incredibly deceptive and dishonest, which is why they end up with so many clergy scandals. Obviously, there are actually faithful people who are sometimes involved. But I would be very careful. You might want to talk with David. He was very involved with them.
I was entertained. Jacob should now be able to put aside his besmirching of Paul of Tarsus.
Romans 8 does not strike me as pessimistic though. Nor Romans 11.
I'm pretty sure Fr De Young's several characterizations of "protestants" are wrong or at least overgeneralized.
Such as what?
There is broad breadth in Protestant positions. My guess is that on this topic Fr De Young primarily has Lutherans and Reformed in mind, given his own Reformed background and his earlier statements that Luther fundamentally misread St Paul (buttressed by bringing up Dr Jordan Cooper, a Lutheran, in this stream).
@@billcynic1815 Yes. Exactly. There is a breadth of Protestant positions. Did Fr DeYoung study his previous tradition at the academic level?
@@pigetstuckvery obviously, yes he's studied Calvinism and the Reformed tradition; and like most protestants of his age, he's obviously familiar with American Evangelical/non-denoms (who don't have a real tradition) as well as the Pentecostals, (Anglicans are just Calvinists in Roman hats).
As a Lutheran (globally an insignificant tradition today) he reads Luther through Calvin who rejects him, rather than through Luther's students Chemnitz, Gerhard, Bach et al. To most traditional Lutherans this is the highest insult.
*All* non trivial characterization of protestants are some combination of wrong, over-generalisations or ambiguous.
"Protestants" as a group don't exist. Therefore, any generalisation is impossible and at the same time the only choice.
1:13:23 anti-universalism stream.
Jacob making my case.