Emulating Might Be More Illegal Than I Thought...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ย. 2023
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Hello guys and gals, it's me Mutahar again! This time we take a look at what appears to be the laws surrounding emulation and how over the course of the year a few actions have taken place which could respark the debate and potentially make some aspects down right illicit in the eyes of the law. Thanks for watching!
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Ok!
Shog
Wsp muta😊
Rip
hey muta how is the vita emulator on this?
As a wise rando on the internet once said, if buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing.
IMO, it's definitely not piracy if I've got the original legitimate copy in physical form. Like, I have multiple (3*) copies of Zelda 2 for NES... IMO, it's not piracy for me to take a ROM from a website and play it on an emulator when I don't want to get out the NES, open the big box, and find one of those cartridges.... Only to discover my TV doesn't have a suitable input for an old NES anyway. All I'm doing is saving myself some time and energy to play a game that I do have valid licenses to play.
*My NES collection mainly consists of games and hardware I was given by the local charity shop that isn't allowed to sell such items. Someone brought them 3 NES consoles and a big box of games... Many of the games were duplicates, and I suspect the 3 consoles meant 3 kids who all wanted to play the same games at once, and someone had more money than energy to deal with kids arguing.
@@tin2001its still piracy if you download it off the internet, if you dump your own copy it isn’t.
But if you download a game you own… it’s piracy but its defensible.
Edit
Just to be clear thats not an opinion thats the law in the US. Unless you live in California then move
I like this
@@RusticRonnie Ah yes. The solution of you must pay the price of 3-4 games to back up your games. Because... that makes sense. If you have more money it's not piracy!
I should note, I've pirated a very large amount of games. Been since... undertale? I want to say undertale since I last did. I bought a friend a copy to play after enjoying it. Also I could have just used my brothers computer. It was 20 feet away and he did in fact have his own copy.
Emulating Nintendo games is a perfectly morally ok thing to do.
💯
same goes for Every console from Any and all console manufacturers, especially sony and microsoft
yep
At least for old games. Tbh I still often use original console though even if I put roms on an everdrive.. Idk about modern games though. Maybe if it's more than 5 years old I just don't feel as comfortable stealing new stuff
Nintendo is the only company that I've given zero dollars to. Selling your 6 year old game at the same price as launch day is a no-no from me.
I've always been firmly in the camp of "if it's on the USER'S device, the USER can do whatever they want with it, except redistributing unlicensed copies of it".
Making it illegal to modify the products you own is a rabbit hole we should avoid going down at all costs.
A lot of things ARE illegal in the UK, but almost everyone does them anyway. Like for instance copying a Music CD YOU BOUGHT AND PAID FOR TO iTunes, ILLEGAL in the UK. Not that I think anyone's ever been arrested for it.
whatsup w the caps
@@MrKrewie Think of it as an !
well of course you're in the User's Rights camp, you're a user XD
Except you don't own it you lease it
Muta: emulation may be illegal
Also Muta: here is how you install all exisiting emulators
based
Emulation is always in the crosshair of every company that wants to lock products they don't sell behind walls.
i havent seen sony do a dumbass lawsuit against emulator devs as much as nintendo does so nintendo is the only company that actually gets their ass cheeks in a bunch about emulation
It's called capitalism
I have lists of games I wish i could pay for and download but couldn't because they were pulled from the stores. I have the lists and the money, but the only way to get the games is through emulation and illegal downloads.
@@John_Lee_ It would be if they actually tried to sell the product lol. Kinda a requirement for capitalism.
@@Falsechicken A company chooses not to sell their game and tries to enforce it's right to not have illegal copies. That's the capitalism aspect. They owe you nothing.
I’m more of a real hardware enthusiast but I think emulation should 100% be legal even from the games standpoint.
You shouldn’t be allowed to enforce copyright on games you don’t sell
Which would create the solution if this were true. If they have to sell software to maintain copyright, likewise they would have to maintain and update games for new consoles or keep old online stores open like the DS store or PSP store for example.
That's actually a great idea.
Exactly, if a game, console or pice of software is not sold or supported anymore they shouldn’t have a copyright anymore.
If companies wish to maintain a copyright on something they should have to keep supporting it as well.
@@RatchetCrab With the advent of online stores, it is trivial to make the games available. I would understand protecting the big corps (slightly) if this weren't the case.
I also believe that the source code of all computer software should be open source after a couple years, but that is a completely different can of worms.
real hardware dies eventually alot of the old consoles are starting to reach their point of life where theyre no longer usable also we need to force the government to legalize emulation theres nothing wrong with emulation at all and with how shitty companies are being on not allowing us to own digital copies of games emulation is the only thing left
Muta: Emulation might actually not be ok.
Also Muta: Oh no. Anyways...
I love this channel.
The issue with "updating the law" is that what you'll likely end up getting is going to be way worse for the individual/consumer than it was.
That's my concern, especially because we have a bunch of out of touch old people running the government who know nothing about the internet or how we view things as a whole.
Maybe, but we can either fight for laws that are better or let the people who actually want anti consumer laws implement them.
I don't think there really is an option to abstain from this kind of thing, and really picking a good court is what's necessary
The only way to update the law is to make sure the companies have nothing to do with the writing of the law. The reason why copyright law is so lopsided and easy to abuse is because corporations lobbied to make it that way. It's time to repeal the DMCA and implement anti-trust and pro-consumer regulations to prevent these vultures from abusing people trying to enjoy things. "You will own everything, and they'll be pissed!" - Louis Rossmann
Laws are always bought and paid for by corporations, for their benefit.
I’ll never understand why game companies don’t just sell the actual ISO files. They don’t even need to emulate or remaster them, just sell us the files and let us figure it out.
If they did, id be for an outrageous price, like $30 for a PS1 game.
I think it has to do with game console sales, at-least for more modern ones. Legacy stuff though has no excuses and I wish they’d be like SEGA in this regard and sell the games on steam or the eshop and let us legally access the files from there to put on an emulator.
That would be sensible, though it is worth noting that many titles have intricate licensing considerations not worth the time and resources on the publisher's part. But, yes, the games they own and control outright should be offered for sale even if they are simply images.
@@jer1776 i feel corpret would do more disgusting things like that make a sorta Emulator "game" kinda like those mobile ones like Beatstar and put the ISOs into a gacha system or a battle pass or something more screwed up
@@cloudy_xDD If Nintendo ever released their old games, modern games, and future games on PC... even if they made their own launcher... they'd make so much money. I have the ROMs for the old Sonic games but at the same time I also bought the games on Steam, even the ports like Sonic CD
Not in the EU, here it's 100% legal. This is even backed up by a Court ruling
If only the UK were still part of the EU...
jokes on you brexit i moved to poland now i can emulate everthing
@@lexruptor If it predates Brexit, it technically is still considered law in the UK, AFAIK
Only if you own the physical media.
You need to own the game either digital or on the cartridge.
Old EU laws states that you are allowed to make a digital backup for private use on all media you own.
But you NEED to own it first.
Big EU W
"Gaming is timeless." - Well said, Muta. Any form of art (fine arts, theater, filmmaking, graphic design, music production, game design, etc.) should be venerated as a timeless capsule of creativity, ingenuity and inspiration.
The time of games being pieces of art is over. Sorry to burst the nostalgia bubble, but nobody will be emulating this last gen of games. Games stopped being art once they moved to live service models
@@showsister69 Sorry to burst your bubble, but not every game made today is a live service game
@@showsister69by your logic music, movies, and TV shows aren't art either
noone tell this guy about ringo starr
my guy, majority of games arent live service, tf you on about?@@showsister69
If recording/copying/backing up shows on VHS tapes was legal for personal use (which it was), there's no reason digital copies should be any different
Are you sure recording shows onto tape was legal? It was done a lot, but that doesn't make it any less of an "unauthorized copy." I don't think digital copies are any different; they're just much more dangerous for the copyright holder -- as there is no limit to how much they can be copied -- so the copyright holder is more strongly incentivized to protect their work.
@JamesHoughton Isn't this exactly how DVRs worked? Tivo has been around since early 2000s and was very popular.
@@calculator91 Yes, it is. Using DVRs was usually made legal through license agreements between cable providers and the copyright holders. So copying via a DVR included with your cable box is usually an authorized copy.
Put yourself in the shoes of a rights holder. By default, and as one would expect, other people aren't allowed to copy that work (unless it is fair use) without authorization from the rights holder.
depends where, "most" countries copyright/licensing laws are strictly limited to distribution and monetization
this is also why for most countries, only the distributors get arrested or fined in a piracy transaction
dictating what you can or can't do with something in your possession is more like, terms of service, but like the name suggests, that's limited to services
oddly enough, USA is not part of "most countries", they have anti piracy laws that also covers acquisition of pirated material to punish both parties of a piracy transaction, which is in some ways fucked up, since the receiving party isn't always aware if what they're getting is pirated content or not, shouldn't be their responsibility to investigate.
example, scammer is selling ripped movies at the back of his corner store, you go buy a movie there, seems legit enough, dude made cases and prints plus it's being sold at a store, you'd be liable to face piracy fines for buying that bootleg movie in USA, same applies to downloading games, it's possible someone just thought "hey this site is offering the game for free like the Epic Store", and piracy wasn't strictly the intention
this is why most countries limit it to the distributor, since in most cases the receiving party aren't causing any harm anyway and it's too much of a logistical headache to make sure the intent was there
all this to say, in a country that doesn't limit copyright laws to distribution and monetization like USA, where simple acquisition of pirated material is illegal, that would also cover acquiring a second copy of something even if you owned the original
The fun part of that is Sony sued or threatened to sue Sony before.
This was when they first brought out a dual cassette deck that had a duplicate function that would do perfect copies. It was the same with the dual VHS decks and again with units with CD-R burner built-in.
I think it's complete lunacy that it has been allowed that if you paid money for a product you're not allowed to do what you want with it.
yea, people need to wake up and start to change politics to the better.. people need to act in political issues and questions that need to be updated or changed.
They try to do this with everything, and in every case its corporate abuse or government overreach
which circumvents US law, what they're doing is actually illegal but individuals cannot pay the court fees.
Because, technically, you aren't buying a product, but rather a license to use it. Which generates more questions than answers, honestly.
@@llSuperSnivyllno that's games. you can do whatever with the console
I have zero incentive to comply with anti-piracy laws until consumers get protection for their purchases. The laws as they exist currently only benefit corporations, not individuals. Therefore, I refuse to comply.
*“If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.”*
@@Operational117well shit, I guess it's time to commit some tax fraud. All the cool politicians and CEOs are doing it these days.
A law which does not serve does not bind.
So basically breaking the law it's susposed to benifett the individual or you can legally go scorched earth if they remove a game or two your purchases
@@hunterculpepper1973 I have free will and I can do whatever I want. There is no morality in corporate capitalism. Only greed. If you can take something for nothing from a corporate institution, you should. Because they would do the same to you in a heartbeat. The sooner people realize that, the better off we'll all be.
I think what I hate the most about game companies going after emulators is that the vast majority of the time they're going after emulators for consoles they don't sell playing games they don't sell.
"No, you aren't allowed to emulate our old games. No we aren't going to sell them to you. Buy the new shit we shovel out or punch sand."
Agreed. It should be completely legal to emulate those games, even if you get them from an online source. I understand currently supported systems and games offered for sale officially being illegal, but they shouldn't have a right to say squat about something they no longer offer.
THIS. FUCKING, THIS. ALL OF IT. YES. Sony stopped making PS2s and games for them over a decade ago. The network adapter doesn't do anything either. Unless you have a fat PS3 (let's face it, you don't), there's no way to back up those saves or keep playing those games. My biggest example of this is the original SSX trilogy. Only playable on a PS2 or a fat PS3, and not released as PS2 classics on the store, nor re-released as a modern trilogy package. They were my childhood, and I found out last week that my PS2 from 2001 has developed a bad first controller port, rendering the console useless for gameplay. I dumped my BIOS and saves to USB using an FMCB memory card and put all that into PCSX2. I lack a functional optical drive to dump my discs, so naturally I went and got roms for them. Halfway I feel bad about that, but I OWN copies of each of them. They won't last forever. They've never looked better or loaded faster.
If the companies responsible for the hardware and games no longer profit from them due to age, it should be legal to emulate the hardware and download a rom of the software. They aren't making money on 20+ year old products. I have both, so I should be able to do what I want with them.
@@Shady_Inktail They make money indirectly from not having something competing with it. If tons of people are playing emulators of their own games, that's a section of the market that isn't going to be as open to buying new games. It's perfectly understandable from a business perspective and people who believe videogames are worth continuing to develop and work on.
@@RaniaIsAwesome are you for eal?
@@Shady_InktailI agree with this entirely... However, one small caveat. Sometimes old games DO get re-released. Like Seiken Densetsu 3 AKA Trials of Mana. Or rather they finally get released to western audiences 30 years after the fact. I'm not gonna go delete my fan translation ROM I got 10 years ago, but just because they're not doing anything with it RIGHT NOW doesn't mean they never will. And I'd be perfectly fine paying for a legit copy of something like that... which I did, but I went with the remake just because I can still play that old ROM whenever I want to.
Nerrel already made a pretty amazing video on legality of emulation.
Unofficial Emulators itself are perfectly legal no matter if Nintendo likes it or not.
Its the getting games onto those emulators where then the line becomes a bit blurry.
Love Nerrel!
It’s not even the downloading ROMs part that’s the really illegal part, it’s moreso the distribution
@@overdrivedrinker8284 Actually it is. You can only use a copy of the game (ROM) that was dumped from YOUR physical copy. Downloading somebody else's dumped ROM is illegal.
Yeah noo need for the to distribute for money when everyone has wifi these days ...and can download it themselves. But fuck all these companies anyways ... 😂😂😂😂.
But then you have to consider the concept of original hardware designed to play those games will eventually cease to function, with no ability to play those games officially. Take the original SSX for example. It released in 2000, on PS2. Both that game and the hardware are no longer sold in retail stores, by Sony, or can be downloaded as a PS2 Classic. A fat PS3 is no longer sold in stores, so Sony makes nothing on them. When all PS2 models and fat PS3 models cease their function, SSX (along with roughly 9500 other games) won't be playable on official hardware. Emulation will be the only way to go. If I own the console, the disc, and the tools to dump them all, why shouldn't I be allowed to if the publisher makes nothing anymore?
The law doesn't matter, only the enforcement of the law matters. If a crime is completely ignored and everyone can get away with it there's no point in it being illegal. Piracy for personal use is never really punished. I'm sure even the police pirate movies and stuff.
A friend of mine uses his buddies Plex server and his buddy is an officer for the Phoenix police department LOL
@@Pomni_DigitaI_CircusNobody cares about your cringe
I think this applies more to Eastern Europe. I wonder if in Countries like Germany or Japan piracy is more risky.
@@ChuddAnonIn Germany there's law firms that farm data from ISPs to find people to sue for piracy.
Yeah the minute you start selling them online is when Nintendo sends their ninjas after your butt.
Emulation is legally protected, emulating pirated games is not.
If you reverse-engineer a system and write an emulator for it, the emulator is entirely your property, there's nothing illegal about that. Dolphin requires an image of the gamecube/wii kernel, but they don't provide it themselves so it's also legal.
problem is companies are typing a way to put copyright/protection codes to stop people from emulating games is pretty much a scummy thing to do Honestly DMCA laws creates piracy and I wish DMCA LAWS should be 100% abolished.
it's effectively impossible to prove that someone doesn't own hardware because if you are accused and charged you can simply buy the cheapest available unit anywhere on the globe and be completely cleared of any potential wrongdoing, which is why they go for content hosts and providers instead, which is also fruitless under section 230 of the communications decency act which states:
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
meaning that as long as a service is hosting third party content generated by users, they are completely clear. The maximum possible action that can be taken is a federal government request to remove hosted content manually, which then has to be reapplied every time it goes back up.
Making an emulator is legal all selling or distributing of games is illegal that’s why they can’t distribute them…either your gaslighting or ignorant to all the court rulings. Please do research before spouting non sense
Also don’t get your answers from random TH-cam users talk to copyright and trademark lawyers many like myself will give the information for free
I think you think you know more than you do. Circumventing security to dump games is a crime. This makes dumping anything other than a ps1 game illegal. Since you can just insert a ps1 disc and copy the files, no circumvention necessary.
Considering the way companies continue to omit games from their old catalogues from digital stores, or even going back and altering them years later; I, personally, believe that emulation is an important avenue for video game preservation.
If the companies have a problem with that - I don't care. I have been a hardcore gamer and lover of the art form since the 80s and I refuse to allow companies to let games of the past vanish from history.
If it means we must go around them to preserve them, SO BE IT!!
yea. i live in the land of the free. come take it from my cold gun bearing hands. f nintendo.
Emulation and Piracy would be less of an issue if the console holders and game publishers actually took the time to build frameworks to compete with them. Nintendo could have made their own PC client and sold games on PC putting a major dent in their emulation problem years ago.
I personally would have no problem to wait a few years after exclusive releases on any game system, or even a generation of game consoles, meaning Switch games available on PC after the release of the Switch 2 (f.e.) or even Switch 3, but if people ain't buying your system because they just only want to play an specific software, nothing will, is not like putting all the library available but the titles that will unlikely receive a remaster in a future (I know, botw could perfectly receive one, but who, knows that piece of software will not be a selling machine anyway).
Exactly, just now they abandon 3ds and nds then why they not just releases his nintendo client on PC like heck they not even make that device again tho
Given that all modern videogame companies don’t give us backwards compatibility, the morals of emulating games are kind of irrelevant if it’s the only option available
That’s… literally false as the PS5 allows you to put in PS4 discs and play the games on PS5. And the Xbox Series X does the same for Xbox consoles
@@ToonyTails🤓🤓🤓
@@ToonyTails If you wanna play PS3 games you have to pay a monthly subscription and stream the games from Sony servers at native PS3 resolution and frame rates which ends up in a very subpar experience...
@@IndyMiraaga Yeah but would you take this over an inflated price for hardware backwards compatibility or no way to play them at all?
@@ToonyTails I would take emulating over having to pay a subscription to play games i may already own but have no way to play.
The fact is, Abandonware exists, if you no longer produce and sell a game, as the developer, it is Abandonware. Most of Nintendo's past library is, in fact, Abandonware.
Armored core moment
Abandonware has no legal footing whatsoever, though.
@@samuelcamarillo1349tell that to the uk
@@samuelcamarillo1349 It's also impossible to enforce copyright on works owned by multiple parties with licensing agreements which is the case for a lot of abandonware
@@kupokinzyt lmao L take
Something interesting I noticed for the first time is when I went to a bachelor party in Canada (Montreal specifically) we all decided one night we wanted to go to a bar arcade type of place. Me and my friends noticed a section where they had a Nintendo GameCube and Nintendo Wii near each other. When we used the Wii we noticed something interesting, it booted to a modded box art screen with endless box art covers of games that were stored on the device via sd card! To me that was so cool because I never thought I would see that in a public setting out in the wild!
One of the regulars that goes to chill there overheard me talking to my friends about how cool this was and I was like I wonder why they modded it considering technically it could be illegal though I don’t know what the laws of Canada is since I’m American. He told me the reason they modded it was because the disk drive failed rendering the device useless unless they used sd cards to rip the games to which would keep the console useful and getting more mileage out of it! This is one prime example where I think this was very justified and so cool to see it in a public setting!
Which bypasses the security and is illegal 😂
In Mexico there's alot A LOT of these hacked systems in every other corner store. I wonder if there's any loopholes or licenses that they actually go thru, because one time a local (most of these arcade machines were owned by bigger companies) tried making their own and they immediately got shut down.
As Gabe Newell once said, "Piracy is almost always a service problem, not a pricing problem." Legit if games are no longer on the market what's the point of trying to stop people making it enjoyable for themselves.
If they aren't on the market, you don't get the play it. I know, shocking that you don't get whatever you want when you stamp your feet pmsl
@@wyterabitt2149 if they aren't on the market then we'll just steal it and there's nothing they can do about it pmsl
@@asdfoifhvjbkaos Yes, you admit it's stealing. I do it as well, I just don't pretend it's some moral crusade I accept it's because I am entitled and that what I am doing has no justification. I am glad you agree.
@@wyterabitt2149 i'd argue that "it's not available in any other way" is a morally acceptable justification - you're not cutting into anyone's profits or really taking anything away from anyone
it always aches whenever I see that quote
steam itself is a terrible service with all the nonsense of DRM and not being able to download offline installers of what they call "drm free" games (that aren't DRM free because you can only install them online when authenticated to their service)
Game emulation falls in the "it's illegal but who gives a shit?" category for me. When old games are no longer available to buy, how else are people gonna play them if their discs or og consoles don't work anymore?
Edit: I agree with the comments that emulation itself isn't illegal but how you get the roms is more hazy. I was half asleep when I wrote this.
this ☝️
That where legal and logic go separate ways.
Emulation is 100% legal, its just how you get the roms that is questionable.
Technically if i make a GameCube game thats free you could emulate it without any questions.
Its just the act of getting roms to play
Basically, Yhea
It's not legally ok, But morally? It's fine
@@RusticRonnieEmulation is legal, But some emulators aren't, It's a case by case basis
If anything, this should show you how woefully outdated copyright laws are and why it needs a massive update without corporate interference. Its a shame that its unlikely to happen soon because of the complexity and hoe many international agreements about copyright law exists.
Sadly any rework would open the doors for Disney to lobby for an extension
@jesusramirezromo2037 as if they arent already lobbying under current laws.
@@graye2799 I believe that was their point
@tbnwontpop8857 I was just saying that they are doing that anyway under current laws. So, nothing would change if serious efforts were made to change laws. We would need pressure campaigns to prevent that.
What do you think the law even is, and what about it do you want to change?
A risk worth taking to preserve gaming
its only a secret if you never tell anyone else about it.
A lot of companies don’t even preserve their own games
If companies are going to continue fighting against emulation, they should provide an official and supported repository for old systems where you could buy roms and bios from them. Companies cry about how people pirate old games when they don't offer any sort of alternative to the customer.
Outside of Nintendo, what company makes a big stink about pirating old games?
@@RippahRooJizahidk Sony in 99
@@jpuc5568 "Sony in 99" doesn't actually count, though. I said pirating old games, not using a computer to emulate a current system.
if the game is no longer sold by the publisher/devs directly (chibi-robo plug in to adventure, Blitz The League 2, etc) emulation should be not only legal but encouraged.
The law in the US is 15years and it’s legally abandoned in which it can be legally distributed.
But that means you can’t buy it from manufacturer at all, if they have it on a subscription service its not abandoned
its a from case to case scenario, if a company buy the right to a old game they have the right to remove all old backup copies .. they hold the copyright
Chibi-Robo 😭 loved that game, hoping a remaster comes out for switch
Nintendo really did that series dirty with all it's trash 'sequel' spin-offs
@@RusticRonniebetween the NES, SNES, Genesis, Gameboy, and Gameboy Advanced, there were close to 4500 released games.
And while the WiiU shop used to sell TurboGrafx 16 games, the system is entirely ignored on the Switch online system. The Sega Master System and Sega Game Gear, Sega CD, and 32X are also completely ignored. These add up to close to another 1700 games.
Nintendo online streams less to 200 games. So way less than 0.5% of the 8-bit and 16-bit released games are currently available via Nintendo Online.
Sega and Square sell some of their games as bundles or on Steam. Some 16-bit games have been resold on newer hardware like the Disney’s Aladdin / Lion King collection or the Castlevania collections for Switch. And some games are being sold on Everdrive collection cards.
Being generous, it feels like at most 500 8-bit and 16-bit games are readily available of the 5200+.
Why can’t we legally play Super Mario Land 1 or 3? Why shouldn’t we be able to enjoy NES ports of Mule or Base Wars or Archon? Why can’t anybody enjoy the Genesis Jurassic Park games?
And don’t even get me started on translation patches. I paid hundreds of dollars on a TurboGrafx 16 mini. Intended for North American audiences. And the game “Snatcher” is only available in Japanese. I’m not sure how there should be any legal reason why I can’t download and English patch a game I already paid for, so I can enjoy a game. The situation is messed up to say the least.
It’s not only morally right, it is the responsibility for anyone who wishes to preserve media
Morals don't matter
The only people who say something is morally right are the people who know that it's actually immoral. Because if it was actually moral you wouldn't have to say so.
Imagine trying to argue that stealing is morally right. Bet you also celebrated rioters stealing from stores too.
@@thefool3424 🤡🤓
NOOOOO Billion dollar comparinos need my money!!!!!!!!!Pirating is bad!!!!!!!!
crazy how i used to think this channel was boring when my friend told me about it. now whenever mutahar uploads i must watch it cos it genuinely is interesting,. keep up the good work
What should be illegal is Paying more for a soft copy(the code) than a hard-copy.
Many companies get away with exploiting customers and justify it with "it's legal", yet there's people out there that sometimes do certain things, maybe to save a life in which depending on the situation can be illegal, or even end up being charged with a felony just to save one's life, even though it was completely morally justifyable, it's so disgusting.
Like the dude on the subway in NYC I'm with you
How are companies exploiting you? What are they telling you "it's legal" about? They offer a product and you can purchase it or not. Your other examples are some of the most random, non relevant statements that I have ever heard. Piracy has or never will save someones life.
You're talking about stealing video games. Go touch grass lol
@@suchin8524 A lot of the people within the gaming community tend to hold grudges twords game companies for doing things they see as "Wrong", such as crunch culture, which has been a thing in every other major industry ever, not letting you buy old products even though it's literally not that hard to put something like "super mario nes rom" into your search engine of choice and even then most of it is shovelware, licensed games, sports titles also licensed by the major sports companies like the NFL or ESPN, and many other things I could go on about.
@@suchin8524 I guess he's making the point that laws don't always reflect what people perceive to be moral. Which is true - laws are imperfect and made by humans with biases and agendas, and with a limited understanding of a topic, or with limited resources to properly capture every angle of a situation.
And dismissing his claim that companies are exploiting us is downright ridiculous. In what world do you live in? Any cloud connected device these days may or may not stop functioning at any point, require weird subscriptions you didn't know about before, or collects your private data (or simply leaves it unsecured because they couldn't be bothered to actually spend money on something that doesn't make them money back). If that isn't exploitation then idk. Even if these things were always known perfectly at the time of purchase and available in print, nobody has time to research every purchase perfectly, and read the fine print of every company (oh, and the third parties that they contract with!), so we end up making reasonable assumptions (sure, this baby monitor should do fine, costs 400$ after all) - only to then get f*cked in the a*s later and left with a useless brick.
Even if it was illegal i'd still do it.
This.
Based
Even while it is illegal I still do it (in game)
The sad fact is that any company producing any kind of media absolutely DETESTS, LOATHES, ABHORS, HATES the whole notion of an end user accessing their content (even legally bought) on a device where the end user is in total control.
True👍🏻
they can't stop me from doing whatever i want with the stuff i buy or is inside my computer.
Still morally correct
"Emulation is awful and if you emulate you belong in prison!" - video game companies sleeping on the fact that they could make an absolute mint selling emulation software for their games
But then they lose money on their proprietary hardware that they can also conveniently and exclusively harvest your data from! Nobody would buy consoles anymore if they could just buy emulation software! Think of the shareholders!
Good emulation at that. Nintendo's just sucks compared to PC, especially since there's no widescreen hacks/code injecting, and how their old games in 4:3 aspect ratios aren't even the full fit to screen so you have small black bars at the top and bottom. The render itself may be a 4:3 but on a 16:9 monitor it doesn't even fill the space of a 4:3
@@v4n1ty92 Then they can wait 2 generations and sell emus after they discontinue a system.
what level of respect do you get in prison if you end up there from selling or distributing illegal copies? level 20/10?
@@v4n1ty92 The hardware that they no longer produce because they lose money producing and supporting it? Come on man. Think of the shareholders! Think!
If companies released their own emulators and opened stores to buy old games at reasonable prices, they would be making loads of extra cash from us retro gamers. Most of us only resort to emulation and pirating roms because the owners of these games don't give us easy legitimate alternatives.
its a issue that involve storage space, data cost and other things that cost money. They need to make enough money to make it worth it.
@@lokelaufeyson9931 Storage has become cheaper over time, same with data transfer, and a ps1 game license download would be 700MB that would add a devastating $0,005 dollars in data transfer to the cost of your license if they make you pay for it, and I imagine most people would be okay with taking that massive extra cost of 0,005 dollars to play, say, Tekken 3 again after so many years.
@@lokelaufeyson9931 I don't think that's an issue, at least with things below cd games. the entire SNES catalogue is like 5gb. and they're also a billionaire company it would take them nothing to do a 5 or 10tb archive available for everyone to buy. licensing is an issue though
@@lokelaufeyson9931 most of these companies probably already have the roms somewhere, and if not, they could always use already existing dumping tools to get them. and depending on how they choose to sell them, the rest of your concerns are non-issues. Sega already sells roms on Steam, off loading almost all of the work onto Valve. for Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft, they already have digital storefronts so almost all of the infrastructure is already there. They just need to create the client for downloading the games on PC, and Roms, especially for older titles, are really small compared to modern games. if Nintendo can store over 15gb of Monster Hunter updates, they can store the entire catalogue of first party N64 games. the bigger concern is the distribution of third party games and games where the publisher/hardware owner/whoever doesn't have all of the relevant rights(such as goldeneye).
As someone learning law and having extreme love and interest for game emulation and media preservation, I really want this to be tested in court. There should be a gofundme or something for the individual for legal expenses.
In the context of a time where classics cost hundreds to thousands, emulation of rare and classic games being illegal violates the spirit of monopoly laws
sure, but the legal system has basically been looking the other way on monopoly since the 80s
@@blarghblargh All monopolies are created and protected by the government. It's not possible to operate a monopoly otherwise.
Something I noticed when looking into emulation law is how even when my searches weren't even in English, a lot of the results were US-specific. I understand the States have a lot of influence over the world we live in, but that doesn't mean we all live under its laws.
IANAL, but if I'm right, "sailing" is explicitly protected in Spain as long as nobody makes any money off of it. In other words, «Recordaos: lo hacéis gratis.»
i'd wager that's because the anti-emulation companies want to push those results globally as a fear tactic
Type your country name after???
This is how you announce a sponsor, right in the beginning and get it out of the way! Great video brother!
another banger muta thanks for the info!! :0
A 30 minutes about Emulation?
This gonna be good
The backup thing isn't actually new. The law has always been you can back things up but only for archival purposes, not to have 2 usable copies. It's just most people don't see the problem with switching between copies of your game, since from a code level, they're fundamentally the same. And you're not distributing it. Personally I agree with most people. But for legal purposes I'll only ever admit to having archival backups just in case the originals gets damaged.
or the other way around. you keep the original as the back-up.
yea, its legal and all ok to have a backup copy of a game or media that you have bought and own. If you can show a original media when asked its 100% legal.. as long as its used for personal use and only by yourself or your family. Cant say if its legal to send a legal backup copy halfway over usa and still being legal though.. i think it apply to your local area/your home in some cases.
But the general law of common sense do apply, its not illegal until you are caught doing it. NOT a legal advice and im not a lawyer.
Yo Muta thank you for the free trial for Brilliant I really needed it brother!!
“If a person takes Nintendo to court, that person is going to lose”
And this is why the entire legal system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. The truth should be the only factor that determines success or failure. The system needs to be agnostic as to the amount of money being spent.
It may be illegal but there is no real barrier from blocking people from doing it.
i would love to see someone not side with the evil companies and side with us for once making it legal to emulate games and no more of this bullshit nonsense will ever happen
@@billyhatcher643
Sony:
Nintendo: but our precious profits 😭😡
Xbox:
@@EDUB9X3 Tbf Xbox did shut down a Halo 3 fanmade PC port, but they also proceeded to hire those guys and have them work on porting the Master Chief Collection to PC so...
@@IndyMiraaga That's cool.
@@billyhatcher643I literally have no idea why people so badly want corporations to have more control over stuff we buy and play
I was Thinking: "man, this Muta analysis makes sense, I understand his reasoning to doubt emulating despite the fact that it's his passion" and then said: "lets dump some games for my steam deck" I respect him even more now, screw nintendo
I hope someone tests this and gets it cleared up from a legal standpoint so that no one has to worry about being arrested for playing a game they own in whatever way they feel like.
they can try." your hounor he was playing mario, when he shoulda been out in the snow!!! yea right.
@@Kdog307 What?
if buying isnt owning then piracy isnt stealing
Imagine car companies saying you don't have the right to modify your car because they own the copyright to the engine. It's the same with game companies.
My friend, that is exactly where the car companies are heading. Get ready to see your entire car be packed with proprietary software.
@matusfitos1727 The difference with car companies, though, is that the right to repair laws exists. Meaning the knowledge to modify it will be more available.
@@graye2799it doesn't do anything, every car made since the late 90s has systems that are unrepairable unless you spend 10k$+ on manufacturer software. Every ecu today is heavily encrypted and changing any value even if you bypass the encryption will make the car not work because it verifies every variable. And all of this is thanks to emission laws and some dudes in the 90s reengineering the ecus so they can run custom maps and make more power. And the right to repair laws won't change anything about this.
Modern cars companies don't even want you to look onto the engine, gas or electric, it doesn't matter. Louis Rossmann covered this topic quite a long time ago.
I mean Ferrari already does that. Look at Deadmau5. Bought a Ferrari, gave it a paint job and then Ferrari is saying he cant do that.
I'll stop emulating when game companies start selling their old games and consoles again.
In the meantime, I'll be playing Pokemon Emerald on my phone. Yohoho and a bottle of rum, b* ches.
I'm never gonna stop emulating.
@@megaman37456same tbh. F corporations, especially EA and Nintendo.
@@ThePopo543yeah fuck nintendo
until they drop the next zelda then we’ll be cool for a bit
Very insightful video!!! Just subbed!
I love this virtual battle between companies and hackers
I understand companies getting agitated when people are emulating stuff being sold currently, that’s par course, but they have nothing but themselves to blame when they don’t offer a way (that isn’t a subscription) to play their old catalogue.
I couldn’t play either Pokémon Colosseum and XD: Gale of Darkness on my Switch, y’know what could? Steam Deck. I beat those two within days of each other since I can emulate them.
It’ll take GameFreak 20 years before they REMEMBER those games, so why should I wait for them to make a decision?
110%.... They stop selling the hardware, and then want you to rebuy the software on a new platform.
Which often turns out to be an emulator they didn't create 🤦
If they are currently selling it then downloading it is piracy.
If they aren’t selling it and its 10 years since it was for sale its abandoned ware then it is legal to download depending on where you live
Thing is, I bet most people (Admittedly myself included) wouldn't be that upset with a subscription model if it wasn't a joke, for instance Xbox Gamepass provides access to *an amount* of backwards compatible titles, if that catalogue were to expand I doubt people would complain given the sheer value Gamepass provides already for most people. (This *currently* includes third party titles and titles with licensed music such as Skate 3 too, at least through Game Streaming, not sure if you can install Skate 3 on a device)
Compare that to Nintendo's offering and you see what I mean about "if it wasn't a joke"
I've spent the last 10 minutes with this comment unposted trying to find something I saw a while ago that does this, it's called Antstream Arcade, essentially they're aiming to be the game streaming equivalent to Retroarch but it's still very much in its infancy in terms of stuff you actually want to play, most modern system is PS1 and there's 2 games (40 Winks & Loaded) but at least there's someone out there trying
Edit: For the record btw I agree with your sentiment, if there's no method of legally playing these games that involves giving money to the people that made/published the game, what difference does it make whether the local gamestop makes a 187% margin on that PS2 game sale or whether [Insert questionable website here] gets one more hit...
The traditional media industry were very quick to get back catalogues onto streaming services like Netflix and Prime Video, makes you wonder whether it was entirely to capitalize on subscription sales or whether the "Give me a way to legally purchase it then" argument is something they wanted to avoid having tested in court (Probably not, but it's an interesting thought)
Those two games aren't by GameFreak by the way.
Took me all of 20 secs to find copies of those games for sale physically. Try again with a reason that isn't "I want to pirate games". If you sold your old consoles and games then you have no longer any right to them.
I never really noticed how expressive Mutah’s eyebrows are, especially around the 17-18 Minute mark, them shits is crazy!!!!!
Finally someone who doesn't suggest piracy all the time. Most of us have done it at some point, but it still triggers something in my brain when someone tells me that "Google is my friend" or whatever.
At least when I started using PCSX2 with my old saves, I dumped my own BIOS ROM. It's my hardware, virtual.
If you buy a game, it's your property.
I'm backing my games till the end of time.
Unfortunately you didn't buy the game. You bought a perpetual, revokeable at any time for any reason, temporary license to play
@@BanditLeader Not if you have a physical copy. If you have a GBA and a copy of Pokemon Emerald you own both, none of that licensing bullshit.
@@BanditLeader What if you own it physically?
@@devbagsmusic physical copies are dying like the dodo. But if you do own it physically, then of course they can't revoke your access to it. You do own it outright instead of licensed
It's only legal to an extent
Video game fear mongering? That's some serious Nintendo jail time
You should be able to do whatever the heck you want with whatever product you have. If it's your DVD, Video Game, or whatever then there's no reason why we can't make back ups and use said back ups. Our product, our rights.
Stay excited, Muta, and have fun.
I'd feel more bad about it if companies made older games easier to find.
Old Armored Cores, Zeldas, Metroids, good GTA copies.
don't feel bad. they're making their sales just fine. copying is not the same thing as stealing.
anyone who tells you it's "wrong" is a large-corporate simp, because draconian and long lasting copyright benefits large corporations disproportionately to small companies.
@@blarghblargh Yep. Never forget that the gaming industry has been making record-breaking profits and growth for the past decade, and they still increased the MSRP of games.
I've been playing gamecube games on my steam deck and it's reignited my love for gaming. The two Baten Kaitos games are a once in a lifetime experience on par with your first playthrough of Subnautica.
Even in my own house I was scared as shit in subnautica 😭
@@zerosabs3603 Same, My first playthrough was something like 86 hours because I was terrified of the noises even the safe fish made
I was playing fzero gx on deck and i fear snaking may reduce the lifespan of the control sticks and also may give me early arthritis
You mean the two Baten Kaitos games with official re-releases?
@@Vokoca Hear me out, the cringe English voice acting in the original games just can't be replaced. It was part of the magic in a way. They chose not to include the English dub in the remasters.
I own a copy of both games for the GameCube so I feel comfortable emulating the GameCube version.
Some countries gave a right to the users to have a backup of videogames and other forms of software. It would be really interesting to see their take on all of this.
You are perfectly in your rights to create a backup, but you are not allowed to strip drm, which makes the above method effectively useless, at least if you want to stay within the law
@@Duck_side The court in Germany decided cracking is okay, if the developer does not give you constant access to your products (servers down, game doesn't work with DRM, etc.) Not sure if they decided otherwise again, but that law saved by butt. Nuff said^^
@@Fox_on_a_Rollercoaster wish they did that here.
19:12 It's likely even more confusing than that, as Nintendo's own 3DS system allows you to use a PC, as a bridge, when transferring data from one 3DS to another, as an alternative to transferring the data wirelessly.
PCSX2 on Steam Deck is fucking phenomenal. I've spent more time playing PS2 on my Deck than I did on the actual PS2 as a kid.
Well modern gaming is trash so it makes sense
Officer, I just wanted to play Drill Dozer for the GBA.
officer they WE'RE NOT GONNA RERELEASE CONKER'S BAD FUR DAY, PLEASE YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND
You have good taste sir.
I hear that game is pretty great.I was into GBA at the time, but you know, can't buy every game lol.
Emulation has always been something I wanted to try out but just never had the time, the hardware and the proper knowledge to undertake. Now that I have more time now, most of the hardware I need, I just the need the proper knowledge to finally do it.
Patiently awaiting your video on the GTA6 trailer
Surprise! Whoever has the most money to throw around decides our laws in the US
I like the idea of having nintendo go against valve. Their pockets are much deeper.
As a note for emudeck. Alot of the cover art gets DMC struck every now and then, If you end up trying to add more games and update emudeck. You may lose all your art files for the game you may have selected. It might be better to search for, or make them yourself. Then upload them when adding the roms.
Thanks for the heads up!
One thing that is on my mind regarding this is the provision of the fair use regarding non-comercial use of copyrighted work. Also the purpose of the copyright laws in them self is to protect from comercialized "piracy", meaning making profit from copyrighted work.
If this goes to court, I thing the destinction between comercial and non-comercial use should be the main thing to settle here. Also the inforcability of EULA regarding where and how you can use the thing you purchased / own.
There should be a law that in order to keep copyright on something it must be commercially or legally available at least once every ten years
dumping a card using "unauthorized" methods? authorized by who? who has the authority to tell you how you use your own personal computer devices? nintendo sure as fuck doesn't. you're correct in comparing this to right to repair as it is entirely in the same realm, the manufacturer has no say in telling you what you're allowed to do with the property that you own
Yep if we can't own it the price better reflects it (rent price).
I always pay when the developer gets my money. Anything else no longer for sale, I'll "steal" it. The little dipshits telling me how wrong that is are likely hiding much worse; virtue signalers can be the most reprehensible people.
I'm thinking some of the "emulation bad" sentiment benefits the retro gaming scalpers who have been inflating prices since the Angry Nintendo Nerd became a thing. How is sending $200 to xX_JoeShmoe_Zz for a near-almost-mint Donkey Kong Country Gameboy Color loose cart of any relevance to Nintendo's bottom line? Yet I often see that touted as the "correct" way to do things
There are also homebrew games for this system, I remember spending tens of hours playing a roguelike called POWDER on my GBA. one of the best games on the system imo
9:19 thank you muta I was losing my mind I could not think of the word
I mainly emulate older games that are no longer in production like ds and game boy games and i feel like those should be perfectly legal because nintendo microsoft and sony are likely making no money from those older titles.
If a game is not available for purchase by the manufacturer for 10years it falls under abandoned wear which is legal to download and distribute.
But it has to be not available for purchases anywhere so most Nintendo games aren’t because 3ds isn’t old enough virtual machine protects them and switch online protects those games
That’s mostly what I do. Old DS, Game Boy, and NES. Sometimes Wii and GameCube but only if I own them or they’re older than 7 years.
@@RusticRonnie Abandonware is not legal to distribute if the copyright was never officially revoked, which is the case most of the time.
@@RusticRonnie This is rubbish. From the law itself "Is abandonware legal for download? The simple answer is no, abandonware is not legal. Even if the creator abandons a copyrighted work, it does not become public property automatically" Stop spreading lies.
its like putting your finger in a ant hill, nintendo still own the copyright and the legal right to the game. The ants may be friendly but they can also sting or attack..
The "they make no money from them" isnt a valid or good legal defense. Its easy to flip it to "they would be able to make money from it / they are planning to make money from it and release it in the future" by the lawyers..
The company or person who own the copyright have the last word always.
You can blame the current copyright laws on Sonny Bono.
Yes, that Sonny Bono.
He became a US Congressman and the law was named and passed in his honor (he died before the vote).
The Level1Techs video with Wendell titled "Preserving the Past: In Defense of Emulation" is another great watch on the topic of emulation
I don't think this started with Nintendo. I remember with DVD and Blue Ray with ripping them technically counted as bypassing encryption so that backups where a gray area. Some people took iso/images of disks which left everything intact, which technically was less gray.
Ah it's like downloading mp3's back in the day. Yeah it's illegal, but they aren't going to come after some random dude with a few hundred roms in his house computer setup, they're going after the big commercial pirates.
One thing to note, if you are running the latest stable version of SteamOS, you should NOT disable SMT, as the recent 3.5 update fixes the issue wherein that was necessary.
I 100% would buy some of the games if they were available to purchase, but many don't offer it or it can be $100's of dollars.
They sell digital and re-publications of books, they should do the same for games.
I would add that the BIOS for PCSX2 can be circumvented by extracting the PS2 emulator files from a PS3 free firmware update. There was a tutorial somewhere here on TH-cam that gave the instructions to do it. This is the only legal alternative afaik, because firmware updates are free. The only downside is that you can't access the full boot function in PCSX2 because it isn't a BIOS per se but works like one mostly.
If there is no way of buying it Digitally or Physical without spending £100's or its not available anywhere, i will find a ROM online, to actually play and enjoy it! Company's should take Note!
Yeah localising prices and increasing availability is huge, it turns would be pirates into customers
Not only is gaming timeless, but sometimes it feels like the _main-stream_ game industry has reverted back to its early "Standards? The fuck are those?" days
Indie games are going about as strong as ever, yes, but there's a high expectation of quality when you've got a substantial budget backing you up - sometimes that expectation becomes unreasonable as the surrounding hype reaches a climax, but still, you should have more than enough materials to make a really good game
I get that a company can't/won't always update their old products, for reasons like lacking the manpower/not having the license to the IP anymore/whatever other things you tell me, but in that case... if you're not getting money from it or there isn't some nonsense going on like the BIOS stuff for more recent systems, just let the emulation enthusiasts do their thing?????
In Canada you can copy anything you own that uses any of the media storage available as there is a levy on all of them when purchased that goes to cover that. You are also allowed to share said media with your friends with the original media you used to record it, i.e. you can make a mix tape recorded to a cassette and give it to your friend to listen to. Once you start distributing with money and volume involved is when you go against the law. In the states they don't let you do that.
Now, when it comes to getting stuff off of the internet, that is a grey area and you most likely can download any media that you own a physical copy of, however when you start seeding as a host to share it on any network you can be sued to oblivion by the copyright holder.
I remember running the bleem demo on my massively underpowered pentium 133 in 1999 and still being blown away by the fact i was playing metal gear solid on a PC, albiet at 7 frames per second in a postage stamp sized window.
Took many, many hours to compile a huge portable '98 vm with as many preserved 90s true abandonware games and extras I could find.. grew up in the 3dfx days and win10/11 won't play nice with those older titles anymore 😬 it's free to download on my end, and will stay that way as long as I'm around 🙏 I truly believe there's no harm in sharing them, and hope people discover some gems they would never have found otherwise.
Happy gaming!
Been emulating Voodoo graphics chips and Creative sound cards for years. It's the only way to play the games I legally own in the way they were intended to be played.
abandonware is legal to share, no one have claimed copyright on it. But its only legal to share as long as its abandonware, when a company buy the right and copyright you cant share it anymore.
Prisoner "Im doing a 10 stretch forKillingAdrugDealer what are you in for guy?"
Me " Im doing life for bootlegging Crazy Frog Racer for the Ps2"
*GetsStabbed
I remember looking at the screenshots of MGS for Bleemcast, and realising that the data is all in the original PS1 files, but that the PS1 can't display it all. Like if you look at 6:30, it's not using higher resolution textures, it's just the actual screen resolution is higher, the only reason it looks blurry on the left, is because of how low the PS1 native resolution is.
Oh man. That Genesis TMSS splash screen is so nostalgic.
If gaming companies could just do this from the start. This wouldn’t be an issue.
Any console that’s disc based should emulate a old game on your disc period
Xbox I can understand why they don’t have every game
Cause the original Xbox is a pain to emulate.
Now PlayStation on the other hand there’s no excuse
Ps5 already has ps4 support
But not ps1 or ps2
(I can understand ps3 for the same reasons as the original Xbox but again why don’t they have the option to put your disc in and let it play for the older consoles besides that and ps4.)
The 16:10 aspect ratio of the Steam Deck actually feels great. It makes a 4:3 image feel better since it fits slightly better on the screen compared to 16:9 screen.
This video reminds me a lot of a video Nerrel made on the subject called "Emulation, the law, and you: where the hobby ends and the crime begins". But yeah, it basically boils down to emulators are legal to have and its legal to have archives but its illegal to get those archives. There are so many contradictions that makes this such a grey area where emulation is legal and illegal
Jefferson wanted to add a 14-year limit to both copyrights and patents in the Constitution's Amendments. A two-term limit of a 7-year apprenticeship. Doing so would have established the factual concerns that these practices were monopolistic headfirst into the public discord of his day. Needless to say, he didn't get his way.