Honestly I'm kinda surprised there isn't gish sorcerer subclass. I think being born into magic and having the power innately just fits so well into using both spell and sword together.
Right! Sorcerer seems like the perfect fit for a gish character, but WotC just keeps shipping them farther down the squishy line. With every other class getting martial and magic subclasses I honestly don't get why sorcerer has been ignored in this aspect
Right? At the very least why not make them some kind of martial buff class like the magus in pathfinder, burning spell slots to increase weapon attack and damage rolls? The closest I've gotten was getting my dm to allow my eldritch knight to use charisma and I played him as a sorcerer hiding among the knights who just subtle casted certain spells. It turned out pretty fun because eldritch knight with shadow blade is actually pretty fun.
Also weird request but can we get a video on the “pacts of the warlock” in addition to warlock subclasses. I just feel like the pacts; tome, blade, chain, and talisman; are like a sub-subclass
@@yooooo8600 my exact thoughts I wish they would fix them. Like remove hex warrior and improve the hexblade curse. Like maybe they are allow to move the curse to different enemies = to their proficiency(or charisma mod). At 14 level they can move the curse as much as they like, they get to use the ability = to half their proficiency rounded down per short rest; and they get 3 hit points back each time they move it after they kill someone. And that original hit points warlock level plus charisma when they dismiss/ kill the last enemy with the curse Give pact of the blade Hex Warrior at level 3 for free.
@@yooooo8600 Talisman has some pretty good invocations associated with it, like Rebuke of the Talisman, gives Warlocks an okay reaction, which is something warlocks (especially e-blast locks) don't get to use too frequently. But just the plain talisman is something that is useful in itself, the d4 can be useful, but its just the meta game info you get from the DM about rolls they are trying to be sneaky on. If they are the type of DM to ever ask you to make a perception or insight check, and then try to act coy about whether or not you failed or passed the check you can just tell them: 'I need to know whether or not I failed so I know whether I can use my talisman or not' and then they have to give you a straight forward answer of 'yes or no' according to RAW. Of course they can always overrule this as the DM. There is the 'Protection of the Talisman' invocation; which lets the wearer add a d4 to a saving throws, which also allows you to gain meta game info, if you were ever in a situation where the DM asked for saving throws, and then they get everyone's rolls and then doesn't tell everyone what is going on (most likely do to a secret curse or poison). Then you have players wondering who failed and saved, this can give you a sort of guideline to at least know the general save DC so you get a good idea of who failed or saved. (IE you know that at least whatever you rolled is higher or lower than the DC) And the very last one essentially lets the Warlock and wearer teleport to each other as long as they're on the same plane, which is admittedly the most useless feature of this pact; unless you're splitting the party. Though there may be a very slim chance you may need to get to an NPC, so you can give them the talisman and tp to them later as a sort of waypoint, and if you ever need it you can just resummon it to you on a short rest, though this is a level 12 invocation, so your party wizard would have Teleportation Circle, and they would be very close to the teleport spell.
@@charliescheirmann2926 i'll be honest I haven't looked at all of the talisman invocations in a while, I just remember seeing them initially and thinking they're not as good as chain or tome
I feel like while Bladesinger may scale better mechanically, the Hexblade scales into its role as a Gish build as the game progresses, while the Bladesinger becomes less of a Gish and more of a caster as it levels.
Hexblade becomes a better and better duelist over time with invocations for power and mobility like eldritch smite and relentless hex and otherworldly leap
"DMs; don't give your bladesinger a Cloak of Displacement." Imma need you to really keep it down, my DM literally just gave my Bladesinger a Cloak of Displacement...
Arcane Trickster with different classes of magic would be cool too; I've been looking at creating a subclass with access to Transformation spells to create a parkour specialist.
Totally agree. The limitation of the schools of magic & 1/3 spellcasting really bring down the potential. I'd really like to see a GISH that uses CON for their casting ability. It would really help out their ability focuses.
@@ReallyRobEgan I'm not a fan of CON as a casting stat, mainly because literally every character wants CON already. It essentially reduces the number of stats they need to less than most other classes. For example, a typical Wizard wants INT for spells, CON for HP, and DEX for AC. A theoretical CON based gish would have CON for spells AND HP, and then either STR or DEX for AC. Fighters and Rouges are the only classes that only need 2 stats, but they arguably also have the least versatility. Fighters generally just hit things really hard, while Rouges tend to situationally do good damage, while being a bit of a skill monkey.
That, and a multiclass mix of 6 Bard 14 Sorceror yields some dope spells to upcast, metamagic and another set of subclass features to suit your tastes. Even light on feats, it's strong and fun.
I just had a great time as a swords bard. I was just evil to the DM's in adventure league and at level 10 I took counter spell and from there mostly just used my spell slots to negate any enemy Spellcaster's existence. It broke so many encounters.
College of Swords Bard with a 1-level Hexblade dip is just lethal. Gaining the ability to attack with CHA, use a shield and the Shield Spell along with Hexblade's Curse is a whole lot for just a 1-level dip. Add War Caster and Resilient CON feats down the line and you can truly do it all on the battlefield.
Having DMed for a bladesinger, I can assure it is completely unbalanced, OP, and outclasses both regular fighters and regualar wizard subclasses (maybe except divination with portent in certain situations)
@@davidlindsay5905 It's basically a wizard who's hard to hit, with a respectable melee option. Cantrips really help spell slot economy with all the casters, so mainly it's about the being hard to hit. It gets a lot of sweet bonuses at lvl 2 and 6, pretty good at 10 too, so it comes on strong early (pretty OP for a while there), but it's not too OP at high level (compared to many other options). There's a lot of D&D play which occurs at those low to middle levels though.
I was looking at an Eldritch Knight with a 3 level dip in Battle Smith to be able to go all INT on attack ability and spell ability as a gish. This could also benefit the Bladesinger.
You can't really dump Str and Dex if you need to wait until level 6(!) for your character to work (and by that time you don't have Extra Attack or 2nd level spells). Also this character doesn't reach 2nd level spells until level 10 and 3rd level spells until level 16!
starting Artificer 1 and going the rest of the way in Bladesinger Wizard is the best bang for your buck. Getting Con/Int save proficiencies and a small bit of extra health is soooo good for wizard
We just wrapped a 1-20 through the starter box icespire peak, frostmaiden, and avernus. Our bladesinger was nigh invincible, could potentially get a 32 AC and rarely failed saves. We wouldn't have made it through without him. His arc was amazing, going from a cold high level Zhentarim enforcer to the doting, gentle, father of an adopted refugee, to a wounded papa wolf looking for his cub/revenge, to am immortal, redeemed and honorable celestial arbiter of justice was incredible to watch.
I personally think that you get the best "gish" out of multiclassing. Hexblade alone is ok, but it really shines in multiclassing. Hexblade + sorcerer or paladin, and sorcerer + paladin are imo the best gish.
I like hexblade 3 (pact of the blade)/sword college 17 (half-elf for elven accuracy?). Uses a longbow (pact)/longsword (hexblade)/shield w/hex and hexblade curse. Comes in @ level 9 - 14 sweet spot.
If you roll some god stats then you can multiclass bladesinger into 2 levels of paladin which is a very powerful build. In high level campaigns though paladin 6 sorcerer 14 is king, specially an oath of the watcher and clockwork sorcerer, you can have a high ac (not as high as bladesinger), advantage on wisdom, charisma and intelligence saves, add your charisma to all saves, and the clockwork lvl 14 feature where you cannot roll below a 10 for 1 minute and enemies cannot gain advantage on you. Tashas transformation turns this class into a killing machine.
A fiend pact of the blade multiclass with fighter and a gauntlet of ogre strength. And maybe another multiclass into paladin or sorcerer at higher levels
I don't think that the Eldritch Knight gets enough spell slots to feel like a Gish. Bard is a decent contender, as is Warlock, but the spell selection and martial abilities are a bit lacking.
@@xaviervega468 EKs don't even get Fireball until 13th level. Until then, EKs best spells are basically Shield and Fog Cloud. So a defense specialist with a smoke bomb.
@@greycat5383, so I've been playing a fire genasi EK with 2 levels of war mage wizard, and he had access to about 19 spells at level 7, between cantrips, 1st-level spells, and ritual casting. He is hilariously versatile. I got a ring of spell storing for him, and he has more than enough spell slots by carrying over spells from slow days and the two levels of wizard. He's basically the utility caster of the party. The rogue and I have a ton of fun together. So for the benefits of an EK over other fighters, here's what I've got to say. The defensive capabilities of shield, absorb elements, and protection from Evil and Good is pretty nuts. They almost never fail Concentration checks to keep minor buffs going. I can scout with find familiar (the bat is my favorite). They can blast crowds with AoE bursts (burning hands, thunderwave, dragon breath on a familiar, etc.). They have some pretty nifty control spells, between fog cloud, grease, levitate. He can travels pretty dang well, between jump, featherfall, and expeditious retreat. He scratches that magical itch that I would otherwise be unable to get with a martial character.
I honestly feel like the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight should have been 1/2 casters, rather than 1/3 casters. Make them at least like a Paladin, Artificer, or Ranger and maybe add bonus Schools for each. Like maybe Conjuration for Eldritch Knights and Divination for Arcane Tricksters. Then people would want to play them more lol. I actually Hombrewed my own Class with Subclasses for one of my players that wanted to play one of these, but, you know, better.
I have never had so much fun with a character as my bladesinger (maxed dex and int, dumped con) my party has proclaimed me a "glass tank" and it is glorious. Until I get scratched, I'm invincible, and the healer takes care of me when I do. It took until level 8 for my hp to catch up to my AC. Plus just being a wizard is the best super power you can want. And by being a wizard that stays alive, you negate the wizard's one weakness. Throw in False Life and/or Warding Bond and I'm good to go.
I was in a AL campaign and we had a bladesinger and I had a cleric/warlock and the difference was huge when were played side by side. * I had AC 18 to start and 20 by 3rd-level. He struggled to get that even at 6th or so. * He had to waste time with buffs just to get his AC up. Meanwhile, I'd be getting hex up. He really hurt if caught unaware. * His stats were more of an issue. I could dumb more and could use ASI's for feats. * I was more flexible. Better ranged damage with EB, better melee damage with polearm mastery + hex. And I have better AC and hit points, plus better defensive abilities armor of agathys. I even had ritual caster feat (so a ton of ritual spells), plus all the cleric rituals and healing. * I always had the darkness + devil's sight thing, plus misty step as a get out of jail or low-level encounter ender. * By 7th+ levels, neither of us were great in melee. Hill giants could blow through either of us pretty quickly. Unless we were tossing off high level spells (such as greater invisibility). It was often better for either of use to stay back. If I had to tank, it was trickery... fight defensively and use PAM to get reaction attacks when folks closed. We had a lot of fun together. Often buffing each other was one of us with enter melee. However, he especially had more issues going into melee and have way better options just staying out of melee and casting spells offensively. I did slightly more damage in melee than EBing, but as soon as there was a martial in the party, EBing and spells were often easier as you didn't need to run from foe to foe or risk taking a crit. I think the idea of the gish rarely lives up to the reality of them under the rules.
@@lovelessissimo Not sure I would with my cleric/warlock. He did mention that he'd probably not play that class again. I was a lot older and experienced, so my character was build more around flexibility and roleplaying, so she could more naturally adapt to different parties (stay staying back an EBing, or heal, or greater invisibility on the rogue rather than provide him a flanking buddy, etc.) or the frontline issues at higher levels (I'd often just polymorph vs. both trying to fight in melee) She also had ritual casting and outdoor skills she useful out of combat. Some of these might help his bladesinger, and there were lots of AL games (we often had three tables running) where we could divide up such that his character was more useful. However, reality for his was his character was disappointing. Fighters, barbarians, and paladins were always better tanks -- at low levels and certainly by 7th+. I was a better tank at lower levels and at higher had better other things to do when tanking didn't work. So, I can see with him (and others) where you have this idea in your head and suddenly you have someone next to you wish it generally better at most things which you want to be good in. It's happen to me with other characters. Maybe if we went back in time, I could add something to the bladesinger which would help, different spells, and such, but honestly... it seemed like a lot of work to make it even match mine while I built mine without a lot of optimization.
My favorite gish ive ever played was a paladin for 2 levels and then sorcerer. Quickening a fireball into a GFB powered by divine smite always feels amazing. Bonus points if hasted
Sorcadins are always good, but I would argue in favor of taking the paladin to level 6 to get both the two attacks per turn and that sweet, sweet, saving throw bonus. The extra HP are always nice, too.
Sorcadin also shares the advantage of being PHB. Hexblade and non-Elf Bladesinger are Johnnies-come-lately to 5e, especially if your DM didn't allow UA.
Bladesingers are the best gish hands down. It’s a wizard with all of their spells without MC. Mine can put out over 300damage a round using spirit shroud and twf
@@havoc8600 You are still countered by saves (specially con saves) have a very low hp and are extremely reaction dependent (if you use shield then cant absorb elements or use lvl 10 feature).
Congratulations on the huge success of the Drakkenheim kickstarter, I am looking forward to getting my copy. Could you do an episode on how to design villain / antagonist NPCs, which sub-classes work well and how to supplement role play with abilities?
So, fun fact about the Swords Bard: The Blade Flourishes can only be used on your turn, during your Attack action, and only once per turn. For whatever reason you can't use it with an off-hand attack, even if you wanted to, nor do you get more use out of it with Extra Attack. I honestly believe that the Valor Bard is superior to the Swords Bard when it comes to being a gish.
We have three gish characters in my Out of the Abyss campaign I'm in. I'm playing a bladesinger wizard (lvl 6), another player is playing a hexblade warlock (lvl 1) eloquence bard (lvl 5) multiclass, and another is playing a swashbuckler rogue (lvl 4) wild magic sorcerer (lvl 2) multiclass. We all play three entirely unique gish characters with different playstyles, and all find great success with playing differently. It's absolutely nuts how much versatility each of us have, and we're all around the same power level currently.
Hexblade warlocks, if you read hex warrior, you can actually notice that your pact weapon already gets the benefits of hex warrior. “If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefits extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type.” This said, you can also dial wield as a hexblade. Sometimes not as potent as glaivelock, but still a really neat idea.
Being a Bladesinger makes you feel so great because you're a full spellcaster that can deal with melee combat without any problems. I always imagine a big monster trying to target you because the "Wizard is squishy" only to realize it made the worst mistake of its life. It's like getting the best grades at school and then being the captain of a sports team too
you forgot about the Battlesmith. My favorite Gish class in 5th edition. No full spellcasting, but better than Eldritch Knight and and to hit/dmg by Int, no(t)MAD like Bladesinger or bards. It's the arcane paladin after all :)
Back in the 90s, a lot of the "D&D is stupid" hate came from the restrictions of classes. Game based on Tolkien won't let my caster use a sword? Lame. Coming back to P'inder and 5e to find that D&D was nowhere near as needlessly restrictive as it used to be was a treat.
If you want a weapon there are many good races for proficiency, such as hobgoblins and high elfs, hobgoblins are great because you can pick the weapons and get light armour proficiency too, and high elves get a free cantrip and proficiency in perception Both can also use weapons they are proficient with, at no penalty
@@NoBrakes23 IKR ? Back in the eighties, when we didn't have as much inspiration material, Gandalf and Merlin were the wizard role models and both were wielding a sword... Given how squishy mages were in melee in the first editions of DnD, the point was not about power but more about flavor, so it was often turned over by house ruling at our tables...
A gish I really like is Eldtritch Knight multiclassed with War Wizard. Makes for a great tanky gish. War Wizard alone is not the best, but put those abilities with a fighter and it's awesome. Arcane Deflection limiting you to a cantrip isn't an issue on a fighter. I'll be playing this multiclass soon and I'm excited for it. I love EK but I also want more spellcasting. Making a strength build for plate armor so no bladesinger.
One of my favorite characters I've ever played was a HexBard. Crazy versatility in terms of skills and spell selection, and the bard's spell slots work well with Warlock spellcasting to spam Shield or Absorb Elements. Depending on how you want to lean, can choose Sword Bard to focus on melee, or Lore bard to lean more into buff/control/other fun spells with magical secrets.
just a random note my hexblade/paladin multiclass dealt my most insane single hit damage ever {with some help} in a game saving tpk situation of 437. he was warlock 11 paladin 3 with a crit on a GWM glaive strike powered up by banishing smite and 2 level 5 smites which was all doubled by a grave cleric. the kill was on Demogorgon after a party member summoned him {accidently of course} who was a round from killing off the last members of the party
I’m surprised the Battlesmith Artificer wasn’t mentioned, it may not be a full caster or get necessarily “arcane” spells, but using your int stat to attack with magic weapons and getting armor proficiencies, higher hit dice, and all that allow for some more beefy giths. Plus you could say your steel defender looks like a drake, play a small race, and ride them into battle like the OG giths
I've got a game coming up where I'm playing a whip based bladesinger and I'm so excited for the visual of casting boomingblade with the crack of a whip
I’m really happy with the Hexblade Swords Bard you did an episode on. We’re playing Strahd and my bard went down in the first fight right after we arrived. I was killed outright then offered life which was fitting as an offer of a patron. So much flavor and fun!
One of the best melee spellcasters is a clockwork or aberrant sorcerer. Buffing HP with false life or armor of Agathys (both of which scale with spell levels well), using melee cantrips and meta magic to boost those, plus spells like vampiric touch or others… add in mage armor, mirror image, blur, and maybe a shield proficiency via 1 level dip in another class… it becomes seriously powerful without having to split ability scores too much. Other than that though, my favorite multiclass gish concept has been Pali/Bard. A fantastic support class, and a massive damage dealer with smites.
@@seaperson5704 Hex 1 is less of an investment, gives better Cha cantrips, Cha to attack with weapons (like booming and greenflame blades), and a level 1 spell slot that grows back on SRs and is perfect for getting away with a free shield/absorb elements.
Great Video! I would add that any Pact of the Blade Warlock, regardless of Patron could make an excellent Gish, though not as potent as the Hexblade. Also, any Mountain Dwarf caster can be a bit of a Gish, with proficiency in Medium Armor and some Martial Weapons. Elf casters can also work like this with a +2 to DEX and some martial weapon proficiencies, although you probably won't get extra attack either of these ways. Lastly, you can get some cheesy "battle mage" builds by taking one or two levels in fighter or cleric to get weapon and armor proficiencies, and multi classing into a full caster for the rest of your levels.
I have been waiting forever you guys to talk on this topic! So I am playing in a campaign that I wanted to play a Gish character. I was very close to using a Bladesinger. Ultimately what I decided on is a multi class character that pairs a Kensei Monk and an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. I will get extra attack at 5th level with the monk as well as the ability to use two hands on a longsword (Kensei only) for a d10 weapon attack at 3rd. Not to mention unarmored defense right out the gate. And the A.M. Sorcerer I will get metamagic and a ton of extra spells. I also took the telekinetic feat. My character, Atticus Greywood, has been extremely effective thus far and I am only at level 3 so not much has come online yet. I play him very much like a Jedi. His catch phrase is,”the Weave gives me strength.” Lol. He is an amazing multi class option for the Gish category. Thank you both so much! I listen to every episode!! Congrats on the successful launch!
I’ve been playing a Bladesinger weekly for a little over a year now. I think what made it really come alive for me was taking both the Tough and Warcaster feats. I also took 2 levels of Fighter and that helped a lot.
I like how the actual gish were most often deployed as assassins and spies, but the melee bards are dismissed here as too rogue-like to be the best gish. That's why I prefer terms like spellsword or arcane warrior to the generic/ahistoric use of gish
We've been having these discussions since the mid 70's. Nowadays you don't need to homebrew to have great choices. Bard or Divine Soul Sorcerer would be my choices for a player today, I am, however, the forever dm. Not said in regret.
@@caseyr2520 Don't get me wrong, it's fun but isn't the best and the subclass is giving you something that competes with your attacks, when the Fighter attack action is one of the main reasons to choose a Fighter.
@@caseyr2520 No worries, just as bladesinger is a kickass wizard without a song, you can be a formidable fighter not having the heavier hitting magic. I saw EK at play and its terryfiyngly tanky.
@@caseyr2520 hey, as long as you're playing what you want to play and you're having fun nothing else matters. Eldritch Knights can be fun and you can customize it quite extensively with feats of your dm let's you trade in those ASI's.
@@grzegorzlewandowski3859 They are incredibly tanky and its honestly terrifying how tanky they are. Considering they can compete and sometimes surpass the Barbarian in tankiness (even the Totem Warrior using Bear Totem in some cases). Just one Absorb Elements or Shield can really bump up their tankiness.
Had a 14th level Swords Bard, probably my fav character. Not often that the Bard gets the Heroic Sacrifice moment when I Banished a friendly NPC that the BBEG really wanted to kill so they'd have to go through me first. I could feel the jealousy seething from the actual Paladin at the table who'd thrown himself into demons instead of protecting the critical NPC. Plus my VHuman feat was Defensive Duellist, with Defensive Flourish I often ended up with a matching or beating the AC of our Warforged Forge Cleric.
Premises I question from this thought experiment: 1) A gish needs to have 2 attacks per round. There are extremely effective Sorcadin combos that only take 2 levels of Paladin for smite. There are Wizard (Usually Abjurer or War Wizard) dips into 1 Artificer or 3 Fighter for additional weapon and armor proficiences, con saving throw proficiencies, and just overall enhanced survivability that isn't limited to a number of proficiency bonus uses per day. 2) A gish needs to be a single class/subclass. As noted above, Sorcadins and Fighter/Wizard combos can make effective gish builds that still get access to 9th level spells. Additionally, while Eldritch Knights are limited in casting, there are effective combos that get to level 7 for War Magic, then finish in War Wizard, greatly enhancing their spellcasting potential. Based on the bounds of the discussion, the Bladesinger will be more powerful/useful at level 20 because Wizard. But I would recommend the Hexblade to newer players who will have less things to keep track up while learning the game, all while being extremely effective in their initials forays into the game.
Very true! Multiclassing allows not just sorcadins, but bladesinger battlesmith. 16/4 bladesinger/battlesmith nets you 9th level spells and lets you use your INT for your melee attacks. Plus, artificer spell list nets you cure wounds and other util the wizard can't get. Sorcadin is also just busted fun lol
EK also combines cantrips and extra attack-- War Magic : Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
@@ticozayas6430yeah but the bladesingers is better in every way it only costs and action war magic costs an action and bonus action,it leaves your ba for misty step or another ba spell,it comes earlier so you can use it more war magic is really not good
@@ArmorFrogEntertainment but it’s a bard… magical secrets… not to mention that a lot of those spells are aggressive… you don’t need EVERY spell to be aggressive. Just the few that you’ll use in combat… again. You are doing the same thing they are doing. Only having a cursory thought about bard instead of actually going in depth about their options. Faerie fire, hold person (natural crits with every attack), mirror image/misty step, greater invisibility, etc… not counting magical secrets… literally every spell in the game. Didn’t even talk about the fact that charisma bards can 1 level dip in hexblade and out hexblade the hexblade…
@@ArmorFrogEntertainment it doesn’t matter that the spell list is optimized for support… as a bard you’ll only have 2 or 3 spells per level anyway. You CAN build support but if you choose the 2 or 3 aggressive spells per level then spells like steel wind strike and destructive blast and haste then you have an entirely strong aggressive spell list. You guys just have to think. Just like it doesn’t matter what spells are on the wizard and warlock list bc you’re only gonna pick those good for gish
I put 6 levels into college of swords bard before putting in warlock levels. This gives access to some of the really good combat spells and invocations with a healthy reserve of lower level spell slots to use for utility. Being able to drop an eldritch smite without sacrificing too much casting ability is really nice.
I just gave Twilight Domain, Nature Domain, and War Domain Clerics Extra Attack at Level 6, and made them use Wisdom instead of Strength or Dexterity for Attack/Damage Rolls. Couple that with the damage buff that Twilight and Nature Clerics get with weapon attacks, and at 14th Level, you're basically using a Level 1 Smite twice a turn, every turn, for free.
Great video! So glad you showed the three bard subclasses some love, specifically the swords bard. I'm currently playing a gish, and having alot of fun. One of my active characters is a 12th level mostly Bard (9 levels of Sword bard/2 levels of Paladin/1 level of Sorcerer), I have damage but also efficient control and healing options. Related to playing/building a Bladesinger, there are many options, but I would highly recommend going with 3-4 levels of Artificer (Battle Smith specifically) to get additional spell options/features, a steel defender (good for both attacking and providing disadvantage on an incoming attack on you), and lastly (perhaps most important) the ability to have your intelligence dictate your hit modifier with your weapons. Take care all.
The biggest problem with gish builds is that you can never truly balance attacking and casting. If you choose one then you're leaving out the other. You could argue that some classes allow for cantrips and attacks to be mixed, but cantrips are just a small subset of what you could be doing. The best classes that get around this are ones that have a lot of spells that use bonus actions. If you can cast it as a bonus action or control it as a bonus action, that leaves your action open for attacking. Plain and simple, the paladin, ranger, and sorcerer are the 3 best classes for accomplishing this. Most especially, mixing sorcerer and paladin is the best mix of all. Paladin 2/ divine soul sorcerer X gives you just short of full casting, access to most every close combat spell you could dream of, the ability to quicken cast any spell (allowing for more melee), access to great armor and Con saves, and the ability to smite with your SCAGtrip attacks. It's easily the ultimate gish. No questions asked. All of the flavor with minimal sacrifice. Make it a hill dwarf, and you've mitigated the HP issue of a sorcerer.
One of the funniest adventures I've run recently involved a Lore bard, a Vengeance paladin dipped in Swashbuckler, and the two stars of the show that day, the Bladesinger and the Scribes wizard. The Bladesinger was a high elf who acted as an urban vigilante, while the Scribes wizard was his 50-years-younger "accidental" half-elf sister who is a police detective. By day, they have to pretend not to recognize each other. The wizard-on-wizard shit talking during their shared adventure was constant, and completely believable given that they were brother and sister. More importantly, they're very effective as a pair because the Bladesinger can rush in and pin the enemy down, the Scribes wizard casts a battlefield control spell, and the Bladesinger can do whatever seems to be the best mix of effectiveness and resource conservation. They would also cast their concentration spells like Flying _on each other_ rather than themselves. Loss of concentration could still be a problem, but it at least meant the character now tumbling out of the air probably hasn't burned their Reaction yet. I still thought the Scribes wizard was more fun to play, mostly because two or three uses of Bladesong just wasn't enough to make for a reliable front liner because we were looking at typically five to seven fights between long rests. So we had to have a paladin along anyhow, to play lead blocker for everyone else. (Said paladin was one Death Save from dying in his very first combat when he got _too_ far out front of the party and snatched by a chuul and then failed three straight CON saves, but has done quite well since.) Generally the fight plan became 1. Send in the Manifest Mind, maybe cast a spell or two through it, 2. Send in the Paladin to hold the narrow point, 3. Send in the Bladesinger if multiple points or a long front have to be held, but otherwise hold him back. 4. Send the Manifest Mind to the *back* side of the fight, and if the Scribes wizard is holding concentration on a battlefield control spell, she completely hides and interacts with the world solely through it. It's hard to break the concentration of a wizard you can't find. Meanwhile the bard, who is probably holding up a protection spell on the paladin (and if the bladesinger needs Protection from Evil and Good, the paladin casts it) is using Cutting Words to induce misses from the enemy at key times, and fling Eldritch Blasts the rest of the time (Magic Initiate: Warlock). Being able to curl up in a ball and still drop pain on your enemies from a distance is kinda fun the same way a Sharpshooting ranger or Sneak Attacking rogue is. (Or maybe casually walk around the outside of the building and come in the other door, using the Manifest Mind as a distraction.)
Extra attack isn't necessary for a good gish. Sorcadin can reliably hit and dump massive amounts of damage with a single swing, and depending which subclasses you get, can make that one hit more likely to land. Booming blade + smite = big helpings. The same multiclass could benefit from multiattacks, sure, but would exhaust resources faster as well and wouldn't get to use booming blade which scales very nicely. Multiattack, for some gish builds, can be somewhat of a waste. Not always, but it definitely isn't 100% necessary.
@@wafl7212 True and a good point if you want to take more levels in paladin than a full caster, but I want those 9th level spells and metamagic for sure. Plus, with Hold Monster or Hold Person + Quicken Spell, you can guarantee crits and have the spell slots to do so regularly. Hits will be more likely with Vengeance or Conquest Pally.
This was literally build for "best gish" in my last campaign. Between shadow blade+ quickened booming blade (pre errata) for early extra attacks, smite, shield, and armor of agthys it was quite versatile and a lot to handle
@@2Cool2Geek thankfully my DM is giving me some allowances and leeway with my spells. Atm I'm only level 6 sorc, but I'm already showing my gish abilities. I use flame blade and green flame blade (he's allowing Flame Blade to be treated as a weapon for Smite and blade cantrips due to a special backstory item I started with) and we're using pre Errata blade cantrips since none of us liked the change. We have a stats page in our discord and I'm at 2nd highest damage in a single turn with the highest going to our other hell knight, a fallen aasimar hexblade vengeance paladin.
@@8x8johan depends on the build your going for, flaming sphere is ok, but i prefer a "dragons breath" on my familiar to use my concentration on at low to mid level
My vhuman takes mobile at lvl1 then EK at 3 and enjoys the melee CC and insane burst he can bring on short rests with surge. Bonus d8 at lvl5 offsets extra attack until war magic ay lvl7 then you're cooking with fire (or thunder as it were)
I really feel like you didn't take the Warlock getting spells back on a short rest into true context, and there are insane things that can be done with Invocations. Devil's Sight grants advantage to the warlock and disadvantage to those attacking him, and the extra fishing for crits really ties in with smite. Things like Relentless Hex, Tomb of Levistus, and Trickster's Escape can be game breaking
Devil's sight only gives the advantage you are talking about if you use a spell slot on Darkness. Another slot on hex and then no more magic for that combat.
Tbf they did specifically mention devils sight and darkness. I love hexblades ...but relentless hex is just basically 1 free Misty Step that only works after you've hexed/cursed your target, and since all 3 are bonus actions you can't do it until round 2.
The best Gish I’ve ever personally witnessed was a very seldom used combo that my buddy used. He was all the way at level 20, and just took two levels of fighter and the rest was necromancy wizard. It was super broken and toxic, not helped by the fact that he was lawful evil. But yeah, it’s crazy what a big difference it makes just getting martial weapons, shields, heavy armor, second wind, and ESPECIALLY action surge. Action surge alone opens up so many ridiculous combos.
@@funny8781 2 levels of fighter means action surge, which means 3 spells in one turn (action, bonus action, and action surge), which can be DEVASTATING if you pick the right spells. Think about doing Finger of Death and Disintegrate in the same round, or something similar.
I think a better combo is fighter dip then blade singer the rest of the way that’ll give you duelist fighting style and make you pretty competent in melee you also get second attack and get to keep 9th level spells
I'm currently rocking a Clockwork Soul with a single dip into Hexblade and Medium Armor Master. I use aid (often extended from just before my last long rest) and Armor of Agathys (usually quickened at the beginning of, and as needed during a fight), both upcast, to keep my HP high and deal extra ice damage when I do get hit.
I said this on the Bladesinger video itself too, but you can pair Bladesinger with the Battle Smith Artificer. Battle Smith at lvl 3, when you get the subclass, gives proficiency with Martial Weapons, Int Mod on Attack and DMG rolls with a magic weapon, and then gives an infusion to make any weapon a +1 magic weapon for those campaigns that don't give out magic weapons. This gives extra weapon options for flavor with possible d8 dmg die, lets you focus on Int and Con stats with minor attention to Dex just for the AC instead of needing to potentially use any ASI or feats to fill out 3 stats to have the best of both melee and casting, and makes you more self sufficient with Artificer Spells like Cure Wounds. You get to focus on taking feats solely for your casting like Warcaster or the "Touched" feats from Tasha's that give extra spells to your list. You also get a little Robot that can impose Disadvantage on enemy attacks if it's not the one being targeted for the attack that also gives an option for attacking as a BA on your turn for force damage. 3 lvls of it also leaves 17 levels for the Bladesinger to get its 9th lvl spell slot as well as all its Bladesinger features at max level. Both classes being Int based makes the Multiclass requirements a breeze as well while giving your Wizard a few levels of a d8 hit die instead of a d6 for a little extra HP. It makes a similar situation to the Hexblade/Paladin multiclass where they just kinda mesh super well to create a great multiclass synergy by filling in some holes that each has.
I've always combined Arcane Tricksters, Eldritch Knights, and Bladesingers. Usually multiclassing two of them together. Arcane tricksters are fun if you can do something to get shadow blade a little sooner. Bladesinging while getting sneak attack with shadowblade is a crazy combo.
::cue dashboard confessional’s vindicated:: Glad to see you guys came around on the Bladesinger. 👍🏻 Almost felt like you were reading my comment on Nerdarchy’s video a week or so ago on the “overhyped” Bladesinger, in regards to the sheer AC you can get to and the overall versatility it has. Does it have the raw non-slot using damage potential that hexblade does when you throw in feats like gwm and pam? No. Does it have the same hp pool? Pretty well at lower levels but that gap widens at high tier play in hexblade’s favour (24 hp w/same con mod at level 20) with fixed hp increase. But the Bladesinger at endgame stage can get to a 29/30 ac with everything at its disposal before magic items or feats are involved(12 SL/ 13 MA +5 Dex +5 Int in BS + Haste + Shield). +3 If your DM isn’t scared to let you have magic studded leather, or in an AL game woe be to the DM who’s bladesinger takes robe of the Archmagi + Bracers of Defence. Damage: Hexblade PaM + GwM + the necrotic cha damage invocation with max cha and +3 weapon: 3(10+5+5+3)= 69 damage before dice are rolled. Endgame Bladesinger with 2 +3 weapons dual-wielding while hasted with song of victory: 3(5+5+3) + 1(5+3)= 47 damage before dice are rolled or cantrip’s are applied. And Bladesinger isn’t taking a -5 to hit on each of those.
I'm enjoying my Fighter/Warlock, but there's no way it is the most efficient or optimized gish. Battlemaster does appreciate the Warlock's high CHA, though.
Swashbuckler/hexblade rocks even at low levels, and rules in long campaigns (I feel weird there is not one campaign I have dm'd that has been lower than level 15. Most go all the way to level 20.
@@zero11010 It was my first 5e character, and I was not getting solid info from the other players about what they were going to play. I knew I wanted to multiclass, and Warlock looked interesting. Beyond that it fit the backstory parameters that the DM set forward. Started Fighter 1, then Warlock 1. Wasn't sure how it was going to go from there. Party members were caster heavy, (though we've had a slight rotation of players,) and Fighter made more sense. Currently Fighter 7 Warlock 2, and thought it was going to stay a 2 level dip, but we now have a Bard that's getting sturdier, a Bladesinger, and a Ranger. So at least two more levels of Warlock might give some good utility.
A late comment, but you've inspired my next Adventurer build. I'm still considering the Race to build upon, I'm juggling between a Paladin, Wizard or a Sorcerer, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Thanks for this 'character concept' idea to build upon. - Edited thanks to 'auto-correct' malfunctions.
As some one who just DMed for a blade singer, all u need is multiple saving throws for damage in a round to put one down. They can only absorb elements once. A fire, water, earth and air elemental enemy team showed just how far a High AC gets u
So you picked on one player, specifically with saving throws over and over again just to put them down? Yeah, you're a trash Dm. You metagamed in combat in order to beat a player. I'm glad I'm a Dm and not a player. Having to suffer through an ego lord trying to beat his players is taxing.
My favorite gishes were cleric/1 warlock/x. Both were without the hex-blade, but they still rocked. One was strength-based (tempest using a polearm) and the other wisdom-based (nature domain to get shillelagh with quarterstaff and shield). For being one level behind on spellcasting higher level spells you get... heavy armor, healing spells (great to us with pact slots before a short rest), ability to swap spells on prayers, more cantrips (including guidance), two first level spell slots (which are extremely valuable even at high levels to cast hex or other minor spells without using pact slots), ritual casting, and a first-level cleric ability which can be useful. Likewise, a level of bard gives you two immediate slots, bard song, more cantrips, etc.
As long as we are talking FF and not Thay lol. The clockwork sorcadin, the artificer dipped wizard (of your favourite school), the palabard, a high level arcana cleric, bring the mixture of "white" and "black" magic. If you add the Ravnica backgrounds and the dragonmarked races (specially the healing halfling) you can make a really all rounded character
Yall sleeping on Swords Bard. They brought up multiclass but didn't mention that 1 level dip from bard to hexblade make swords bard better than Hexblade in every way... There's plenty spells in there to increase your attack damage or make you more accurate as a swords bard... Faerie Fire works with both spells and attacks... Hold person... auto crits?? You aren't using every spell in the bard list... just the ones that you need to make you Gish. Then with a HB dip they get armor of agathys, hex, shield, hellish rebuke, etc... . Bard is D8, has Dueling and Two-Weapons fighting style (unlike bladesinger or hexblade), Flourish is an actual feature that increases damage and adds a melee feature and can increase your AC by a LOT, and has access to great Gish spells through Ranger and Paladin magical secrets (steel wind strike, destructive wave, smites, aoe attacks..)... Yall sleeping. The only thing Bladesinger has over Swords Bard is the new extra attack feature (but with a one level dip in hexblade that is mostly mitigated).
I am playing a Bladesinger, but I'm going full damage deal with elemental spells, picking things up like Shield, Haste, and Counterspell along the way.
While referring to the Bladesinger: "At the end of the day, you're still a Wizard." - Monty The real debate in this video: When you hear the phrase, "a Wizard", do you hear it in Gandalf's voice.. Or Hagrid's?
@@tiagopedrosa6746 According to the rules of bladesinging, as long as you don't use 2 hands on a weapon, you can have staff in one hand, sword in the other. Bladesinger delivers a Gandalf with 9th level spells.
@@thegoblin3629 They can, but Paladin, specifically Sorcadins can do it better... and also Gandalf is a serve of the Valar, a paladin one could say. Fits more in Lore and Powerplay
My only real issue with Bladesinger is that you can't Bladesong with a greatsword as you mentioned, so the old Gith feeling isn't there. One of my favourite gish builds is a pure War Wizard Githyanki with the Heavily Armoured feat. A little MAD as you want str/con/int, but you can build it to go more int or str depending on your spell choices. And later you can get extra attack from Tenser's Transformation or Tasha's Otherwordly Guise.
At higher tiers of play Wizards become so powerful that staying on the frontline and hitting things with a sword just seems beneath them. Bladesingers are great gishes but high level wizards don't need to be a gish, and some of the other wizard subclasses offer better benefits in the long term.
This is exactly what I was thinking. The Hexblade will maintain a gish play style throughout a campaign, but the Bladesinger will end up benefitting more from just being a wizard. Which, to me, makes it less of a gish at higher tiers. It's still badass though.
I feel like it's less "magic is super powerful and op lol" and more "the bladesinger will be outscaled in damage and fucking die on the front lines past level 14" personally. Like, don't get me wrong, they're tough *for a wizard.* But they still have the lowest HD, they're still MAD so likely low con, and every single spell you cast for the sake of protecting yourself is a spell you aren't casting for the sake of helping the team.
One of my players is playing a Swords Bard that dipped their toes in Hexblade Warlock for two levels. It's a very potent combo! They used magical secrets for Counterspell and Fireball, and just dance around the battlefield, leaving bloody art in their wake.
Clearly my next character needs to be a Bladesinger/hexblade.. I'll call it a 'Hexsinger'! 🤘 Also I now know what my heavy metal band name will be if I ever start one! 😂
One of the cool things about the Bard as a gish is their access to Heat Metal, which gives you an early way to weaponize your bonus action. Open by casting it, then go in and wreck your target in a one-on-one duel. And with Magical Secrets you can pick up Haste, Counterspell and other neat gish spells, maybe even Tenser's Transformation. My favorite spell for this playstyle is Steelwind Strike. Also, Bard Lvl 20 is terrible, so just take one level of Hexblade Warlock or Fighter - you'll get medium armor and shields and either a short rest spell slot, hex, shield and Cha to attack, or an (additional) Fighting Style and Second Wind. If you don't have a need to have 5 ASIs, you can even put on another level of either for Eldritch Invocation or Action Surge.
I kind of feel like all of these subclasses should've been put together in their own separate class, like the Magus in Pathfinder. It seems like if they keep designing a hybrid Gish subclass for several of the main classes, they might as well just make a new class altogether.
I played a Human Variant Swords Bard through Tomb of Annihilation and it was incredibly satisfying! I started with Healing Word and I took Magic Initiate as my feat to get Hex and Eldritch Blast so at early levels I was dishing out lots of extra damage and was very flexible. Being able to self-heal made a big difference. By late game I was able to throw down Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, and of course Animate Objects. In one of the deadliest modules of 5e, I always felt like I had a tool for the job and rarely was in a spot where I felt I might die. Highly recommend for a Gish build!
Honestly I think its all down to how you're going to be playing your character. All three can be the Caster/Fighter and using items/feats they can mitigate their weaknesses in either, but I'd say the following (IMO) If you're going to be using Magic mostly, then Bladesinger (As the guys said....you're a Wizard). If you're going to be mostly a fighter type then I'd say Hexblade (Base AC, not M.A.D. and better weapon selection). Surprisingly though, this really got me thinking of the Swords and how it can be the best of them all...if you're wanting to play a more subtle caster, who is the parties main face and "tank". Like the singer, its a full caster, with a good list of spells for buffing/debuffing (just not a blaster). By using the Attack action your movement is buffed by 10ft for free as a feature. Its base AC and HP are better than the Singer and while it can't natively use shields/Shield, I feel like Defensive Flourish is superior to either. Flourishes are made as part of the attack, so no costing any additional actions and freeing them up for spells. They are eventually infinite, as a 1d6, or up to a 1d12 using bardic inspirations. They don't need to be used until after you confirm the hit, like Divine Smite, so you minimize waste of inspirations. Finally, Defensive Flourish specifically adds to both the attacks damage and your AC until the next turn. You could then stack this with both Shields and the Shield spell if you got those somehow (via feats/multi-classing/race). At this point your talking about a full caster with a base AC of 19-20 (+2-3 from Dex, +2 from a shield and +15 from Half-Plate) who can then push that between 6-17 points higher, using Defensive Flourish and the Shield spell. This isn't even taking into account any bonuses from magic items.......
i actually disagree strongly with being a full caster for a spellblade... If you have access to 9th level spells, essentially at no point is it more beneficial to use your blade instead of casting spells, in which case youre just a mage.
I agree. Imo a gish wants to fight more than anything and use magic to gain the upper hand against other full melee combatants, and cold steel against the squish. Thus I currently think EKs of myriad varieties fit the Gish archetype best in my view. SL9 is for nerds...4 attacks an action is for beasts!
My favorite Gish are an Arcane Trickster with the Mobile feat and a Familiar riding in their pack to provide help as needed and a Swashbuckler15/Hexblade5. Both of them are great all-rounders, having a limited spell pool of low level, but being capable of leveraging those limited spell slots in creative ways, and despite not having extra attack, when they do hit, they can hit hard enough to make up for that. Having the rogue class as the basis also makes them highly maneuverable in combat, and the Swashbuckler is amazing as a party face as well.
Honestly I'm kinda surprised there isn't gish sorcerer subclass. I think being born into magic and having the power innately just fits so well into using both spell and sword together.
Right! Sorcerer seems like the perfect fit for a gish character, but WotC just keeps shipping them farther down the squishy line. With every other class getting martial and magic subclasses I honestly don't get why sorcerer has been ignored in this aspect
Lemme tell you about divine soul Dwarves...
Very true. Just innately "knowing" magic frees up a lot of time to learn martial weapons the old fashioned way.
There would be a good argument to your DM if using an Eldridge Knight that they could be charisma based caster; if you thought along those lines
Right? At the very least why not make them some kind of martial buff class like the magus in pathfinder, burning spell slots to increase weapon attack and damage rolls?
The closest I've gotten was getting my dm to allow my eldritch knight to use charisma and I played him as a sorcerer hiding among the knights who just subtle casted certain spells. It turned out pretty fun because eldritch knight with shadow blade is actually pretty fun.
Also weird request but can we get a video on the “pacts of the warlock” in addition to warlock subclasses. I just feel like the pacts; tome, blade, chain, and talisman; are like a sub-subclass
Talisman is ass, blade is only good for hexblade, chain is great with the invocations, tome is the best with the invocations
@@yooooo8600 my exact thoughts I wish they would fix them. Like remove hex warrior and improve the hexblade curse. Like maybe they are allow to move the curse to different enemies = to their proficiency(or charisma mod). At 14 level they can move the curse as much as they like, they get to use the ability = to half their proficiency rounded down per short rest; and they get 3 hit points back each time they move it after they kill someone. And that original hit points warlock level plus charisma when they dismiss/ kill the last enemy with the curse
Give pact of the blade Hex Warrior at level 3 for free.
@@yooooo8600 Talisman has some pretty good invocations associated with it, like Rebuke of the Talisman, gives Warlocks an okay reaction, which is something warlocks (especially e-blast locks) don't get to use too frequently.
But just the plain talisman is something that is useful in itself, the d4 can be useful, but its just the meta game info you get from the DM about rolls they are trying to be sneaky on. If they are the type of DM to ever ask you to make a perception or insight check, and then try to act coy about whether or not you failed or passed the check you can just tell them:
'I need to know whether or not I failed so I know whether I can use my talisman or not'
and then they have to give you a straight forward answer of 'yes or no' according to RAW. Of course they can always overrule this as the DM.
There is the 'Protection of the Talisman' invocation; which lets the wearer add a d4 to a saving throws, which also allows you to gain meta game info, if you were ever in a situation where the DM asked for saving throws, and then they get everyone's rolls and then doesn't tell everyone what is going on (most likely do to a secret curse or poison). Then you have players wondering who failed and saved, this can give you a sort of guideline to at least know the general save DC so you get a good idea of who failed or saved. (IE you know that at least whatever you rolled is higher or lower than the DC)
And the very last one essentially lets the Warlock and wearer teleport to each other as long as they're on the same plane, which is admittedly the most useless feature of this pact; unless you're splitting the party. Though there may be a very slim chance you may need to get to an NPC, so you can give them the talisman and tp to them later as a sort of waypoint, and if you ever need it you can just resummon it to you on a short rest, though this is a level 12 invocation, so your party wizard would have Teleportation Circle, and they would be very close to the teleport spell.
I would like to see this too.
@@charliescheirmann2926 i'll be honest I haven't looked at all of the talisman invocations in a while, I just remember seeing them initially and thinking they're not as good as chain or tome
I feel like while Bladesinger may scale better mechanically, the Hexblade scales into its role as a Gish build as the game progresses, while the Bladesinger becomes less of a Gish and more of a caster as it levels.
I am certain i can make a bladesinger far more dangerous while abusing just lv2 and 3 spells unless i need a high level screw you spell
Hexblade becomes a better and better duelist over time with invocations for power and mobility like eldritch smite and relentless hex and otherworldly leap
"DMs; don't give your bladesinger a Cloak of Displacement."
Imma need you to really keep it down, my DM literally just gave my Bladesinger a Cloak of Displacement...
My dm gave my bladesinger one by session 5.
Oddly... I don't think I would want a cloak of displacement. spellsingers are pretty solid without
Got to choose 1 rare and 3 uncommon magic items for an evil campaign. >:)
I’m gonna say it, but the Eldritch Knight should be it’s own class. With schools of magic as the subclasses. So much lost potential.
It has been a prestige class in the past.
Arcane Trickster with different classes of magic would be cool too; I've been looking at creating a subclass with access to Transformation spells to create a parkour specialist.
Agreed
Totally agree. The limitation of the schools of magic & 1/3 spellcasting really bring down the potential.
I'd really like to see a GISH that uses CON for their casting ability. It would really help out their ability focuses.
@@ReallyRobEgan I'm not a fan of CON as a casting stat, mainly because literally every character wants CON already. It essentially reduces the number of stats they need to less than most other classes.
For example, a typical Wizard wants INT for spells, CON for HP, and DEX for AC.
A theoretical CON based gish would have CON for spells AND HP, and then either STR or DEX for AC.
Fighters and Rouges are the only classes that only need 2 stats, but they arguably also have the least versatility. Fighters generally just hit things really hard, while Rouges tend to situationally do good damage, while being a bit of a skill monkey.
Imagine like a 4 person party (maybe called the Gish Gang) of a Bladesinger, Hexblade Warlock, Swordsbard, and Vengence Paladin.
Boulder Parchment Shears for who gets to swing swords that fight.
The DM would have constant nightmares :)
up against a stack of halfling diviners in a greatcloak with the lucky feats...
What does gish mean?
@@angelganon8213 a fusion class made of warrior and arcane spellcaster.
I'm happy that College of Swords bard gets some love. It does provide great spellcaster/swordplay options especially when combined with few good feats
That, and a multiclass mix of 6 Bard 14 Sorceror yields some dope spells to upcast, metamagic and another set of subclass features to suit your tastes. Even light on feats, it's strong and fun.
I just had a great time as a swords bard. I was just evil to the DM's in adventure league and at level 10 I took counter spell and from there mostly just used my spell slots to negate any enemy Spellcaster's existence. It broke so many encounters.
College of Swords Bard with a 1-level Hexblade dip is just lethal. Gaining the ability to attack with CHA, use a shield and the Shield Spell along with Hexblade's Curse is a whole lot for just a 1-level dip. Add War Caster and Resilient CON feats down the line and you can truly do it all on the battlefield.
I love how versatile the Bard is in general. It's usually the class I recommend players that want to do a bit of everything.
Find Greater Stead and Haste as magical Secrets at lvl 10 to create a flying faster melee killer with some good cantrips
"What is the Best Gish?"
Monty: *has "Bladesinger" in his name*
Me: I feel like this is going to be biased...
It’s not biased if it’s right /j
He picks the "nickname" for each video based on the video's content.
It's different every time on these videos.
@@Floormat-ux4rw hexblade/swords bard multi disagrees
Having DMed for a bladesinger, I can assure it is completely unbalanced, OP, and outclasses both regular fighters and regualar wizard subclasses (maybe except divination with portent in certain situations)
@@davidlindsay5905 It's basically a wizard who's hard to hit, with a respectable melee option. Cantrips really help spell slot economy with all the casters, so mainly it's about the being hard to hit. It gets a lot of sweet bonuses at lvl 2 and 6, pretty good at 10 too, so it comes on strong early (pretty OP for a while there), but it's not too OP at high level (compared to many other options). There's a lot of D&D play which occurs at those low to middle levels though.
I was looking at an Eldritch Knight with a 3 level dip in Battle Smith to be able to go all INT on attack ability and spell ability as a gish. This could also benefit the Bladesinger.
My "ultimate adventurer" build is a battlesmith 3/bladesinger 17 with proficiency on trap removal skills, and probably dungeon delver.
Trading 9th level spells for MAD removal is worthwhile. I approve.
@@thegoblin3629 Wizard gets 9th level spells at level 17, so that build still gets them.
You can't really dump Str and Dex if you need to wait until level 6(!) for your character to work (and by that time you don't have Extra Attack or 2nd level spells). Also this character doesn't reach 2nd level spells until level 10 and 3rd level spells until level 16!
starting Artificer 1 and going the rest of the way in Bladesinger Wizard is the best bang for your buck. Getting Con/Int save proficiencies and a small bit of extra health is soooo good for wizard
We just wrapped a 1-20 through the starter box icespire peak, frostmaiden, and avernus. Our bladesinger was nigh invincible, could potentially get a 32 AC and rarely failed saves. We wouldn't have made it through without him.
His arc was amazing, going from a cold high level Zhentarim enforcer to the doting, gentle, father of an adopted refugee, to a wounded papa wolf looking for his cub/revenge, to am immortal, redeemed and honorable celestial arbiter of justice was incredible to watch.
I personally think that you get the best "gish" out of multiclassing. Hexblade alone is ok, but it really shines in multiclassing. Hexblade + sorcerer or paladin, and sorcerer + paladin are imo the best gish.
Blade singer/ trickster rogue
I like hexblade 3 (pact of the blade)/sword college 17 (half-elf for elven accuracy?). Uses a longbow (pact)/longsword (hexblade)/shield w/hex and hexblade curse. Comes in @ level 9 - 14 sweet spot.
If you roll some god stats then you can multiclass bladesinger into 2 levels of paladin which is a very powerful build. In high level campaigns though paladin 6 sorcerer 14 is king, specially an oath of the watcher and clockwork sorcerer, you can have a high ac (not as high as bladesinger), advantage on wisdom, charisma and intelligence saves, add your charisma to all saves, and the clockwork lvl 14 feature where you cannot roll below a 10 for 1 minute and enemies cannot gain advantage on you. Tashas transformation turns this class into a killing machine.
A fiend pact of the blade multiclass with fighter and a gauntlet of ogre strength. And maybe another multiclass into paladin or sorcerer at higher levels
I would like to se a build with hexblade and the storm aura barbarian I think that would be a fine gish!
I don't think that the Eldritch Knight gets enough spell slots to feel like a Gish.
Bard is a decent contender, as is Warlock, but the spell selection and martial abilities are a bit lacking.
Gish is sword and sorcery. EK's definitely qualify, they just lean more heavily on the sword side of things.
@@xaviervega468 EKs don't even get Fireball until 13th level. Until then, EKs best spells are basically Shield and Fog Cloud. So a defense specialist with a smoke bomb.
@@greycat5383, so I've been playing a fire genasi EK with 2 levels of war mage wizard, and he had access to about 19 spells at level 7, between cantrips, 1st-level spells, and ritual casting. He is hilariously versatile. I got a ring of spell storing for him, and he has more than enough spell slots by carrying over spells from slow days and the two levels of wizard. He's basically the utility caster of the party. The rogue and I have a ton of fun together.
So for the benefits of an EK over other fighters, here's what I've got to say. The defensive capabilities of shield, absorb elements, and protection from Evil and Good is pretty nuts. They almost never fail Concentration checks to keep minor buffs going. I can scout with find familiar (the bat is my favorite). They can blast crowds with AoE bursts (burning hands, thunderwave, dragon breath on a familiar, etc.). They have some pretty nifty control spells, between fog cloud, grease, levitate. He can travels pretty dang well, between jump, featherfall, and expeditious retreat. He scratches that magical itch that I would otherwise be unable to get with a martial character.
I honestly feel like the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight should have been 1/2 casters, rather than 1/3 casters. Make them at least like a Paladin, Artificer, or Ranger and maybe add bonus Schools for each. Like maybe Conjuration for Eldritch Knights and Divination for Arcane Tricksters. Then people would want to play them more lol.
I actually Hombrewed my own Class with Subclasses for one of my players that wanted to play one of these, but, you know, better.
@@Zac_Frost yeah but aren't bladesingers basically 1/3 martials anyway?
I was always partial to the term "spellsword"
i am partial to spell blade
Sounds like someone is an old school Eldar Scrolls fan. 😉
For me it's always been "Redmage".
I always say sword mage
@@Dragonkindred caught me 😁 I also always liked the term "sellsword" for mercenaries and it's a nice twist on an already satisfying word.
I have never had so much fun with a character as my bladesinger (maxed dex and int, dumped con) my party has proclaimed me a "glass tank" and it is glorious. Until I get scratched, I'm invincible, and the healer takes care of me when I do. It took until level 8 for my hp to catch up to my AC. Plus just being a wizard is the best super power you can want. And by being a wizard that stays alive, you negate the wizard's one weakness. Throw in False Life and/or Warding Bond and I'm good to go.
Never expected to see you here. Totally agree though!
Ooh, imma need to make a high level villian w this build.
I was in a AL campaign and we had a bladesinger and I had a cleric/warlock and the difference was huge when were played side by side.
* I had AC 18 to start and 20 by 3rd-level. He struggled to get that even at 6th or so.
* He had to waste time with buffs just to get his AC up. Meanwhile, I'd be getting hex up. He really hurt if caught unaware.
* His stats were more of an issue. I could dumb more and could use ASI's for feats.
* I was more flexible. Better ranged damage with EB, better melee damage with polearm mastery + hex. And I have better AC and hit points, plus better defensive abilities armor of agathys. I even had ritual caster feat (so a ton of ritual spells), plus all the cleric rituals and healing.
* I always had the darkness + devil's sight thing, plus misty step as a get out of jail or low-level encounter ender.
* By 7th+ levels, neither of us were great in melee. Hill giants could blow through either of us pretty quickly. Unless we were tossing off high level spells (such as greater invisibility). It was often better for either of use to stay back. If I had to tank, it was trickery... fight defensively and use PAM to get reaction attacks when folks closed.
We had a lot of fun together. Often buffing each other was one of us with enter melee. However, he especially had more issues going into melee and have way better options just staying out of melee and casting spells offensively. I did slightly more damage in melee than EBing, but as soon as there was a martial in the party, EBing and spells were often easier as you didn't need to run from foe to foe or risk taking a crit.
I think the idea of the gish rarely lives up to the reality of them under the rules.
@@BW022 so if you could go back and do it again, what would you do different?
@@lovelessissimo Not sure I would with my cleric/warlock. He did mention that he'd probably not play that class again. I was a lot older and experienced, so my character was build more around flexibility and roleplaying, so she could more naturally adapt to different parties (stay staying back an EBing, or heal, or greater invisibility on the rogue rather than provide him a flanking buddy, etc.) or the frontline issues at higher levels (I'd often just polymorph vs. both trying to fight in melee) She also had ritual casting and outdoor skills she useful out of combat.
Some of these might help his bladesinger, and there were lots of AL games (we often had three tables running) where we could divide up such that his character was more useful. However, reality for his was his character was disappointing. Fighters, barbarians, and paladins were always better tanks -- at low levels and certainly by 7th+. I was a better tank at lower levels and at higher had better other things to do when tanking didn't work.
So, I can see with him (and others) where you have this idea in your head and suddenly you have someone next to you wish it generally better at most things which you want to be good in. It's happen to me with other characters. Maybe if we went back in time, I could add something to the bladesinger which would help, different spells, and such, but honestly... it seemed like a lot of work to make it even match mine while I built mine without a lot of optimization.
Nice hair Kelly, 10/10
straight up, he's rocking it.
It’s the “No F’s Given COVID Grow-Out” look. I’m there too.
"Sorcandin" is and will forever be my favorite gish in 5e.
Yup especially if using clockwork.
Where are you getting that first N?
@@jeffdietz630 Divine soul is also nice. Getting the greatest hits off the cleric list. And Aberrant mind.
Hexadin is also really good though, lose absorb elements however now can just focus on Constitution and Charisma. Plus short rest slots.
Sorcadins are wonderful; 14 Divine Soul + 6 Vengeance or Ancient Paladin. Lotta smites, crits, personal reliability, and good all around.
My favorite gish ive ever played was a paladin for 2 levels and then sorcerer. Quickening a fireball into a GFB powered by divine smite always feels amazing. Bonus points if hasted
Sorcadins are always good, but I would argue in favor of taking the paladin to level 6 to get both the two attacks per turn and that sweet, sweet, saving throw bonus. The extra HP are always nice, too.
@@AlbertaGeek yeah maybe up to level 7 if your paladin subclass has a really good aura ability
@@chrisvelo2595 Oath of the Ancients, yes.
Quickened hold person then two melee attacks with advantage that autocrit with your smites
I think I'm reading this wrong. You added smite damage to your fireball, you can't do that.
"Bladesinger is better!"
"No, hexblade is better!"
The sorcadin, looking down on both:
"Pathetic"
sorcadin hexblade "i am a god you dull creature"
Sorcadin also shares the advantage of being PHB. Hexblade and non-Elf Bladesinger are Johnnies-come-lately to 5e, especially if your DM didn't allow UA.
@@Faircrow Sounds like somebody didn't have the stats to bump Strength and Charisma. You SAD bro?
Bladesingers are the best gish hands down. It’s a wizard with all of their spells without MC. Mine can put out over 300damage a round using spirit shroud and twf
@@havoc8600 You are still countered by saves (specially con saves) have a very low hp and are extremely reaction dependent (if you use shield then cant absorb elements or use lvl 10 feature).
Congratulations on the huge success of the Drakkenheim kickstarter, I am looking forward to getting my copy.
Could you do an episode on how to design villain / antagonist NPCs, which sub-classes work well and how to supplement role play with abilities?
So, fun fact about the Swords Bard: The Blade Flourishes can only be used on your turn, during your Attack action, and only once per turn. For whatever reason you can't use it with an off-hand attack, even if you wanted to, nor do you get more use out of it with Extra Attack. I honestly believe that the Valor Bard is superior to the Swords Bard when it comes to being a gish.
We have three gish characters in my Out of the Abyss campaign I'm in. I'm playing a bladesinger wizard (lvl 6), another player is playing a hexblade warlock (lvl 1) eloquence bard (lvl 5) multiclass, and another is playing a swashbuckler rogue (lvl 4) wild magic sorcerer (lvl 2) multiclass. We all play three entirely unique gish characters with different playstyles, and all find great success with playing differently. It's absolutely nuts how much versatility each of us have, and we're all around the same power level currently.
Hexblade warlocks, if you read hex warrior, you can actually notice that your pact weapon already gets the benefits of hex warrior. “If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefits extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type.” This said, you can also dial wield as a hexblade. Sometimes not as potent as glaivelock, but still a really neat idea.
Being a Bladesinger makes you feel so great because you're a full spellcaster that can deal with melee combat without any problems.
I always imagine a big monster trying to target you because the "Wizard is squishy" only to realize it made the worst mistake of its life.
It's like getting the best grades at school and then being the captain of a sports team too
you forgot about the Battlesmith. My favorite Gish class in 5th edition. No full spellcasting, but better than Eldritch Knight and and to hit/dmg by Int, no(t)MAD like Bladesinger or bards. It's the arcane paladin after all :)
While the Githyanki were introduced in Feind Folio, the Gish were only 4th level Fighter/Magic Users, the red dragons and the rest came later
Yeah but for being lvl 8 they are super op.
In Basic D&D, the elf was a class that was definitely a fighter/magic-user hybrid. (Races were classes in basic D&D)
Before I found out about Bladesingers, my wizards would still carry swords in spite of the penalties :)
Back in the 90s, a lot of the "D&D is stupid" hate came from the restrictions of classes. Game based on Tolkien won't let my caster use a sword? Lame. Coming back to P'inder and 5e to find that D&D was nowhere near as needlessly restrictive as it used to be was a treat.
If you want a weapon there are many good races for proficiency, such as hobgoblins and high elfs,
hobgoblins are great because you can pick the weapons and get light armour proficiency too, and high elves get a free cantrip and proficiency in perception
Both can also use weapons they are proficient with, at no penalty
@@NoBrakes23 IKR ? Back in the eighties, when we didn't have as much inspiration material, Gandalf and Merlin were the wizard role models and both were wielding a sword... Given how squishy mages were in melee in the first editions of DnD, the point was not about power but more about flavor, so it was often turned over by house ruling at our tables...
A gish I really like is Eldtritch Knight multiclassed with War Wizard. Makes for a great tanky gish. War Wizard alone is not the best, but put those abilities with a fighter and it's awesome. Arcane Deflection limiting you to a cantrip isn't an issue on a fighter.
I'll be playing this multiclass soon and I'm excited for it. I love EK but I also want more spellcasting. Making a strength build for plate armor so no bladesinger.
One of my favorite characters I've ever played was a HexBard. Crazy versatility in terms of skills and spell selection, and the bard's spell slots work well with Warlock spellcasting to spam Shield or Absorb Elements. Depending on how you want to lean, can choose Sword Bard to focus on melee, or Lore bard to lean more into buff/control/other fun spells with magical secrets.
How did you divide up the levels?
@@rodquilitz7250 im guessin either 1 or 3 levels in hex, rest bard
Playing a padlock right now but this sounds fun.
just a random note my hexblade/paladin multiclass dealt my most insane single hit damage ever {with some help} in a game saving tpk situation of 437. he was warlock 11 paladin 3 with a crit on a GWM glaive strike powered up by banishing smite and 2 level 5 smites which was all doubled by a grave cleric. the kill was on Demogorgon after a party member summoned him {accidently of course} who was a round from killing off the last members of the party
I’m surprised the Battlesmith Artificer wasn’t mentioned, it may not be a full caster or get necessarily “arcane” spells, but using your int stat to attack with magic weapons and getting armor proficiencies, higher hit dice, and all that allow for some more beefy giths. Plus you could say your steel defender looks like a drake, play a small race, and ride them into battle like the OG giths
I've got a game coming up where I'm playing a whip based bladesinger and I'm so excited for the visual of casting boomingblade with the crack of a whip
Really happy to see swords bard getting some love!
SAAAAAAAAME
I’m really happy with the Hexblade Swords Bard you did an episode on. We’re playing Strahd and my bard went down in the first fight right after we arrived. I was killed outright then offered life which was fitting as an offer of a patron. So much flavor and fun!
One of the best melee spellcasters is a clockwork or aberrant sorcerer. Buffing HP with false life or armor of Agathys (both of which scale with spell levels well), using melee cantrips and meta magic to boost those, plus spells like vampiric touch or others… add in mage armor, mirror image, blur, and maybe a shield proficiency via 1 level dip in another class… it becomes seriously powerful without having to split ability scores too much.
Other than that though, my favorite multiclass gish concept has been Pali/Bard. A fantastic support class, and a massive damage dealer with smites.
Can you build that out at level 7 and link it? Assume you get any non magical armor and a +1 weapon.
Don't forget aid for clockwork. Stacks with Agathys, you can share with friends, and you can extend fronthe night before.
I have a Devotion Paladin 6/Clockwork X build I want so bad to try out in my home game. Hes my backup. It's such a strong build.
When you say "another class" paladin 2 or Hexblade 1 is a great idea
@@seaperson5704 Hex 1 is less of an investment, gives better Cha cantrips, Cha to attack with weapons (like booming and greenflame blades), and a level 1 spell slot that grows back on SRs and is perfect for getting away with a free shield/absorb elements.
Great Video!
I would add that any Pact of the Blade Warlock, regardless of Patron could make an excellent Gish, though not as potent as the Hexblade.
Also, any Mountain Dwarf caster can be a bit of a Gish, with proficiency in Medium Armor and some Martial Weapons. Elf casters can also work like this with a +2 to DEX and some martial weapon proficiencies, although you probably won't get extra attack either of these ways.
Lastly, you can get some cheesy "battle mage" builds by taking one or two levels in fighter or cleric to get weapon and armor proficiencies, and multi classing into a full caster for the rest of your levels.
I have been waiting forever you guys to talk on this topic! So I am playing in a campaign that I wanted to play a Gish character. I was very close to using a Bladesinger. Ultimately what I decided on is a multi class character that pairs a Kensei Monk and an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. I will get extra attack at 5th level with the monk as well as the ability to use two hands on a longsword (Kensei only) for a d10 weapon attack at 3rd. Not to mention unarmored defense right out the gate. And the A.M. Sorcerer I will get metamagic and a ton of extra spells. I also took the telekinetic feat. My character, Atticus Greywood, has been extremely effective thus far and I am only at level 3 so not much has come online yet. I play him very much like a Jedi. His catch phrase is,”the Weave gives me strength.” Lol. He is an amazing multi class option for the Gish category. Thank you both so much! I listen to every episode!! Congrats on the successful launch!
I’ve been playing a Bladesinger weekly for a little over a year now. I think what made it really come alive for me was taking both the Tough and Warcaster feats. I also took 2 levels of Fighter and that helped a lot.
Most of my turns do boil down to just Booming Blade then normal attack. Shield if I get hit.
I am so happy that you spent a few minutes explaining "What is a Gish". Thank you very much for doing this.
Technically they are also very strong at psionics.
I like how the actual gish were most often deployed as assassins and spies, but the melee bards are dismissed here as too rogue-like to be the best gish. That's why I prefer terms like spellsword or arcane warrior to the generic/ahistoric use of gish
Also they were op psionics as well.
I like how they couldn't really decide which one is the best, like me. They are all such wonderful subclasses!
We've been having these discussions since the mid 70's. Nowadays you don't need to homebrew to have great choices. Bard or Divine Soul Sorcerer would be my choices for a player today, I am, however, the forever dm. Not said in regret.
I too am the forever dm, and ironically I always make better characters then my players(I am a min maxer)
@@oceanman6973 That's to be expected. You should know more than them.
Now that's a good question and it's definitely not the Eldritch Knight.
I am literally creating one today for a campaign that has been a long time in the making and this is disheartening :/
@@caseyr2520 Don't get me wrong, it's fun but isn't the best and the subclass is giving you something that competes with your attacks, when the Fighter attack action is one of the main reasons to choose a Fighter.
@@caseyr2520 No worries, just as bladesinger is a kickass wizard without a song, you can be a formidable fighter not having the heavier hitting magic. I saw EK at play and its terryfiyngly tanky.
@@caseyr2520 hey, as long as you're playing what you want to play and you're having fun nothing else matters. Eldritch Knights can be fun and you can customize it quite extensively with feats of your dm let's you trade in those ASI's.
@@grzegorzlewandowski3859 They are incredibly tanky and its honestly terrifying how tanky they are. Considering they can compete and sometimes surpass the Barbarian in tankiness (even the Totem Warrior using Bear Totem in some cases). Just one Absorb Elements or Shield can really bump up their tankiness.
Had a 14th level Swords Bard, probably my fav character.
Not often that the Bard gets the Heroic Sacrifice moment when I Banished a friendly NPC that the BBEG really wanted to kill so they'd have to go through me first.
I could feel the jealousy seething from the actual Paladin at the table who'd thrown himself into demons instead of protecting the critical NPC.
Plus my VHuman feat was Defensive Duellist, with Defensive Flourish I often ended up with a matching or beating the AC of our Warforged Forge Cleric.
Premises I question from this thought experiment:
1) A gish needs to have 2 attacks per round.
There are extremely effective Sorcadin combos that only take 2 levels of Paladin for smite. There are Wizard (Usually Abjurer or War Wizard) dips into 1 Artificer or 3 Fighter for additional weapon and armor proficiences, con saving throw proficiencies, and just overall enhanced survivability that isn't limited to a number of proficiency bonus uses per day.
2) A gish needs to be a single class/subclass.
As noted above, Sorcadins and Fighter/Wizard combos can make effective gish builds that still get access to 9th level spells. Additionally, while Eldritch Knights are limited in casting, there are effective combos that get to level 7 for War Magic, then finish in War Wizard, greatly enhancing their spellcasting potential.
Based on the bounds of the discussion, the Bladesinger will be more powerful/useful at level 20 because Wizard. But I would recommend the Hexblade to newer players who will have less things to keep track up while learning the game, all while being extremely effective in their initials forays into the game.
Very true! Multiclassing allows not just sorcadins, but bladesinger battlesmith. 16/4 bladesinger/battlesmith nets you 9th level spells and lets you use your INT for your melee attacks. Plus, artificer spell list nets you cure wounds and other util the wizard can't get.
Sorcadin is also just busted fun lol
As one of the commenters that was asking for this video back on the Best Team Composition video: THANK YOU! I really, really enjoyed this video!
EK also combines cantrips and extra attack-- War Magic
: Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Wholly underrated
War magic kind of sucks at higher levels though. I would be hard pressed to give up two out of my three attacks just to cast a cantrip.
@@xaviervega468 u still get to swing another time on top of the melee cantrip
@@ticozayas6430yeah but the bladesingers is better in every way it only costs and action war magic costs an action and bonus action,it leaves your ba for misty step or another ba spell,it comes earlier so you can use it more war magic is really not good
Hexblade is nova, bladesinger is DPR, swords is support gish :D
Swords bard aren’t support… they are damage… and consistent damage.
@@silverjaiden2450 the Bard spell list is optimized for support.
@@ArmorFrogEntertainment but it’s a bard… magical secrets… not to mention that a lot of those spells are aggressive… you don’t need EVERY spell to be aggressive. Just the few that you’ll use in combat… again. You are doing the same thing they are doing. Only having a cursory thought about bard instead of actually going in depth about their options. Faerie fire, hold person (natural crits with every attack), mirror image/misty step, greater invisibility, etc… not counting magical secrets… literally every spell in the game. Didn’t even talk about the fact that charisma bards can 1 level dip in hexblade and out hexblade the hexblade…
This is the correct take
@@ArmorFrogEntertainment it doesn’t matter that the spell list is optimized for support… as a bard you’ll only have 2 or 3 spells per level anyway. You CAN build support but if you choose the 2 or 3 aggressive spells per level then spells like steel wind strike and destructive blast and haste then you have an entirely strong aggressive spell list. You guys just have to think. Just like it doesn’t matter what spells are on the wizard and warlock list bc you’re only gonna pick those good for gish
I put 6 levels into college of swords bard before putting in warlock levels. This gives access to some of the really good combat spells and invocations with a healthy reserve of lower level spell slots to use for utility. Being able to drop an eldritch smite without sacrificing too much casting ability is really nice.
I'm really enjoying my gish Fathomles warlock right now, taking medium armor master as an extra feat from the dm gave me the chance to really go ham
The "Divine Gish" makes me feel like a Holy Knight or Crusader when I play one. The role play definitely feels different than a traditional Gish.
I just gave Twilight Domain, Nature Domain, and War Domain Clerics Extra Attack at Level 6, and made them use Wisdom instead of Strength or Dexterity for Attack/Damage Rolls.
Couple that with the damage buff that Twilight and Nature Clerics get with weapon attacks, and at 14th Level, you're basically using a Level 1 Smite twice a turn, every turn, for free.
Great video! So glad you showed the three bard subclasses some love, specifically the swords bard. I'm currently playing a gish, and having alot of fun. One of my active characters is a 12th level mostly Bard (9 levels of Sword bard/2 levels of Paladin/1 level of Sorcerer), I have damage but also efficient control and healing options. Related to playing/building a Bladesinger, there are many options, but I would highly recommend going with 3-4 levels of Artificer (Battle Smith specifically) to get additional spell options/features, a steel defender (good for both attacking and providing disadvantage on an incoming attack on you), and lastly (perhaps most important) the ability to have your intelligence dictate your hit modifier with your weapons. Take care all.
The biggest problem with gish builds is that you can never truly balance attacking and casting. If you choose one then you're leaving out the other. You could argue that some classes allow for cantrips and attacks to be mixed, but cantrips are just a small subset of what you could be doing. The best classes that get around this are ones that have a lot of spells that use bonus actions. If you can cast it as a bonus action or control it as a bonus action, that leaves your action open for attacking. Plain and simple, the paladin, ranger, and sorcerer are the 3 best classes for accomplishing this. Most especially, mixing sorcerer and paladin is the best mix of all. Paladin 2/ divine soul sorcerer X gives you just short of full casting, access to most every close combat spell you could dream of, the ability to quicken cast any spell (allowing for more melee), access to great armor and Con saves, and the ability to smite with your SCAGtrip attacks. It's easily the ultimate gish. No questions asked. All of the flavor with minimal sacrifice. Make it a hill dwarf, and you've mitigated the HP issue of a sorcerer.
Of course, when you open this up to multi-class builds, Pally/Sorc/Lock/Bard combos have been the go-to for Gishes for a while.
Sword & Spell to me allways sounds like a fantasy version of a Jedi.
And using a combo of Monk and Warlock, you can play something that feels very close to a Jedi.
A Jedi is actually a bladesinger in a Science Fiction setting.
That's called a Psi Warrior
One of the funniest adventures I've run recently involved a Lore bard, a Vengeance paladin dipped in Swashbuckler, and the two stars of the show that day, the Bladesinger and the Scribes wizard. The Bladesinger was a high elf who acted as an urban vigilante, while the Scribes wizard was his 50-years-younger "accidental" half-elf sister who is a police detective. By day, they have to pretend not to recognize each other. The wizard-on-wizard shit talking during their shared adventure was constant, and completely believable given that they were brother and sister. More importantly, they're very effective as a pair because the Bladesinger can rush in and pin the enemy down, the Scribes wizard casts a battlefield control spell, and the Bladesinger can do whatever seems to be the best mix of effectiveness and resource conservation. They would also cast their concentration spells like Flying _on each other_ rather than themselves. Loss of concentration could still be a problem, but it at least meant the character now tumbling out of the air probably hasn't burned their Reaction yet.
I still thought the Scribes wizard was more fun to play, mostly because two or three uses of Bladesong just wasn't enough to make for a reliable front liner because we were looking at typically five to seven fights between long rests. So we had to have a paladin along anyhow, to play lead blocker for everyone else. (Said paladin was one Death Save from dying in his very first combat when he got _too_ far out front of the party and snatched by a chuul and then failed three straight CON saves, but has done quite well since.) Generally the fight plan became 1. Send in the Manifest Mind, maybe cast a spell or two through it, 2. Send in the Paladin to hold the narrow point, 3. Send in the Bladesinger if multiple points or a long front have to be held, but otherwise hold him back. 4. Send the Manifest Mind to the *back* side of the fight, and if the Scribes wizard is holding concentration on a battlefield control spell, she completely hides and interacts with the world solely through it. It's hard to break the concentration of a wizard you can't find. Meanwhile the bard, who is probably holding up a protection spell on the paladin (and if the bladesinger needs Protection from Evil and Good, the paladin casts it) is using Cutting Words to induce misses from the enemy at key times, and fling Eldritch Blasts the rest of the time (Magic Initiate: Warlock).
Being able to curl up in a ball and still drop pain on your enemies from a distance is kinda fun the same way a Sharpshooting ranger or Sneak Attacking rogue is. (Or maybe casually walk around the outside of the building and come in the other door, using the Manifest Mind as a distraction.)
Extra attack isn't necessary for a good gish. Sorcadin can reliably hit and dump massive amounts of damage with a single swing, and depending which subclasses you get, can make that one hit more likely to land. Booming blade + smite = big helpings. The same multiclass could benefit from multiattacks, sure, but would exhaust resources faster as well and wouldn't get to use booming blade which scales very nicely. Multiattack, for some gish builds, can be somewhat of a waste. Not always, but it definitely isn't 100% necessary.
Good video though love you guys
Keep in mind that more attacks means more crits which is pretty important for paladins.
@@wafl7212 True and a good point if you want to take more levels in paladin than a full caster, but I want those 9th level spells and metamagic for sure. Plus, with Hold Monster or Hold Person + Quicken Spell, you can guarantee crits and have the spell slots to do so regularly. Hits will be more likely with Vengeance or Conquest Pally.
@@wafl7212 But again, if you DO want multi-attack and want more levels in paladin, may as well scoot into grabbing those auras too.
You can also pick the Divine Soul subclass and grab Spiritual Weapon for a bonus attack "extra attack".
Meanwhile I'm playing a Draconic Sorcerer with plans to dip conquest paladin for my hell knight themed gish.
This was literally build for "best gish" in my last campaign. Between shadow blade+ quickened booming blade (pre errata) for early extra attacks, smite, shield, and armor of agthys it was quite versatile and a lot to handle
@@2Cool2Geek thankfully my DM is giving me some allowances and leeway with my spells. Atm I'm only level 6 sorc, but I'm already showing my gish abilities. I use flame blade and green flame blade (he's allowing Flame Blade to be treated as a weapon for Smite and blade cantrips due to a special backstory item I started with) and we're using pre Errata blade cantrips since none of us liked the change.
We have a stats page in our discord and I'm at 2nd highest damage in a single turn with the highest going to our other hell knight, a fallen aasimar hexblade vengeance paladin.
goblin bladesinger, booming blade + bonus action withdraw for the win
Or use that bonus action for flaming sphere to punish them for staying in the same place
@@8x8johan depends on the build your going for, flaming sphere is ok, but i prefer a "dragons breath" on my familiar to use my concentration on at low to mid level
A powerful swordsman you will be.
An untouchable hit and run Wizard, nice.
My vhuman takes mobile at lvl1 then EK at 3 and enjoys the melee CC and insane burst he can bring on short rests with surge. Bonus d8 at lvl5 offsets extra attack until war magic ay lvl7 then you're cooking with fire (or thunder as it were)
@27:50 And even the Moon Druid who only got a brief mention. Seriously, the class is pretty stellar.
I really feel like you didn't take the Warlock getting spells back on a short rest into true context, and there are insane things that can be done with Invocations. Devil's Sight grants advantage to the warlock and disadvantage to those attacking him, and the extra fishing for crits really ties in with smite.
Things like Relentless Hex, Tomb of Levistus, and Trickster's Escape can be game breaking
have you broken the game with them?
Devil's sight only gives the advantage you are talking about if you use a spell slot on Darkness. Another slot on hex and then no more magic for that combat.
@@jamesn3122 you could be a tiefling and cast darkness for free
Tbf they did specifically mention devils sight and darkness. I love hexblades ...but relentless hex is just basically 1 free Misty Step that only works after you've hexed/cursed your target, and since all 3 are bonus actions you can't do it until round 2.
Have you considered Ranger: Drakewarden? Has Longsword, Halfplate armor, spells and a dragon mount.
The best Gish I’ve ever personally witnessed was a very seldom used combo that my buddy used. He was all the way at level 20, and just took two levels of fighter and the rest was necromancy wizard. It was super broken and toxic, not helped by the fact that he was lawful evil. But yeah, it’s crazy what a big difference it makes just getting martial weapons, shields, heavy armor, second wind, and ESPECIALLY action surge. Action surge alone opens up so many ridiculous combos.
What specific combos does it open for a wizard? I'm not doubting the combo, just interested in specifics.
@@funny8781 actions surge gives an extra action so you can both cast a spell and make an attack, or cast multiple spells that take an action
@@elwynn9931 You can only cast one leveled spell per turn, even with action surge all you can cast is a spell then a cantrip
@@funny8781 2 levels of fighter means action surge, which means 3 spells in one turn (action, bonus action, and action surge), which can be DEVASTATING if you pick the right spells. Think about doing Finger of Death and Disintegrate in the same round, or something similar.
I think a better combo is fighter dip then blade singer the rest of the way that’ll give you duelist fighting style and make you pretty competent in melee you also get second attack and get to keep 9th level spells
I'm currently rocking a Clockwork Soul with a single dip into Hexblade and Medium Armor Master. I use aid (often extended from just before my last long rest) and Armor of Agathys (usually quickened at the beginning of, and as needed during a fight), both upcast, to keep my HP high and deal extra ice damage when I do get hit.
So what we should do is multi-class hexblade/swords bard
I said this on the Bladesinger video itself too, but you can pair Bladesinger with the Battle Smith Artificer. Battle Smith at lvl 3, when you get the subclass, gives proficiency with Martial Weapons, Int Mod on Attack and DMG rolls with a magic weapon, and then gives an infusion to make any weapon a +1 magic weapon for those campaigns that don't give out magic weapons. This gives extra weapon options for flavor with possible d8 dmg die, lets you focus on Int and Con stats with minor attention to Dex just for the AC instead of needing to potentially use any ASI or feats to fill out 3 stats to have the best of both melee and casting, and makes you more self sufficient with Artificer Spells like Cure Wounds. You get to focus on taking feats solely for your casting like Warcaster or the "Touched" feats from Tasha's that give extra spells to your list. You also get a little Robot that can impose Disadvantage on enemy attacks if it's not the one being targeted for the attack that also gives an option for attacking as a BA on your turn for force damage. 3 lvls of it also leaves 17 levels for the Bladesinger to get its 9th lvl spell slot as well as all its Bladesinger features at max level. Both classes being Int based makes the Multiclass requirements a breeze as well while giving your Wizard a few levels of a d8 hit die instead of a d6 for a little extra HP. It makes a similar situation to the Hexblade/Paladin multiclass where they just kinda mesh super well to create a great multiclass synergy by filling in some holes that each has.
I'd say anywhere between 6 and 17 levels of War Mage plus your favorite martial class would be a good place to start answering this question.
I've always combined Arcane Tricksters, Eldritch Knights, and Bladesingers. Usually multiclassing two of them together. Arcane tricksters are fun if you can do something to get shadow blade a little sooner. Bladesinging while getting sneak attack with shadowblade is a crazy combo.
Eldritch smite can work with bows once you have improved pact weapon. It’s terrifying to have that plus sharpshooter.
Very effective if your campaign has a lot of young dragons or wyverns.
I had a drow bladesinger that I flavored as a cleric of Eilistraee. That campaign was sooooo fun! I pulled a lot of shenanigans with that build.
Having played none of those listed, I now have a top 3 list when I'm not (forever) DMing 😅
The pain is real, brother.
One day our campaigns end and we will succeed with our persuasion checks to have our friends run a game instead of us.
@@777wrath 😂 Now if my dice would only roll high 😉
@@DDCRExposed Charm Person via providing snacks lol
@@777wrath 🤔 Valid point, I can work with this 😁
::cue dashboard confessional’s vindicated::
Glad to see you guys came around on the Bladesinger. 👍🏻 Almost felt like you were reading my comment on Nerdarchy’s video a week or so ago on the “overhyped” Bladesinger, in regards to the sheer AC you can get to and the overall versatility it has.
Does it have the raw non-slot using damage potential that hexblade does when you throw in feats like gwm and pam? No. Does it have the same hp pool? Pretty well at lower levels but that gap widens at high tier play in hexblade’s favour (24 hp w/same con mod at level 20) with fixed hp increase.
But the Bladesinger at endgame stage can get to a 29/30 ac with everything at its disposal before magic items or feats are involved(12 SL/ 13 MA +5 Dex +5 Int in BS + Haste + Shield).
+3 If your DM isn’t scared to let you have magic studded leather, or in an AL game woe be to the DM who’s bladesinger takes robe of the Archmagi + Bracers of Defence.
Damage: Hexblade PaM + GwM + the necrotic cha damage invocation with max cha and +3 weapon: 3(10+5+5+3)= 69 damage before dice are rolled.
Endgame Bladesinger with 2 +3 weapons dual-wielding while hasted with song of victory: 3(5+5+3) + 1(5+3)= 47 damage before dice are rolled or cantrip’s are applied.
And Bladesinger isn’t taking a -5 to hit on each of those.
I'm enjoying my Fighter/Warlock, but there's no way it is the most efficient or optimized gish. Battlemaster does appreciate the Warlock's high CHA, though.
Mee too. I'm playing a Hexblade 7 / Echo Knight 3 now and really enjoy it. This is not a best pick on paper, but it is really fun. :)
Swashbuckler/hexblade rocks even at low levels, and rules in long campaigns (I feel weird there is not one campaign I have dm'd that has been lower than level 15. Most go all the way to level 20.
Why fighter/warlock over a pure eldritch knight or a pure hexblade?
I’m assuming you’re not 50/50. So, which did you dip into, and why?
I recommend 15 Fighter / 5 Sorcerer (Divine Soul in further recommendation; those Cleric spells are amazing) for that really good sword n’ magic vibe.
@@zero11010 It was my first 5e character, and I was not getting solid info from the other players about what they were going to play. I knew I wanted to multiclass, and Warlock looked interesting. Beyond that it fit the backstory parameters that the DM set forward. Started Fighter 1, then Warlock 1. Wasn't sure how it was going to go from there. Party members were caster heavy, (though we've had a slight rotation of players,) and Fighter made more sense. Currently Fighter 7 Warlock 2, and thought it was going to stay a 2 level dip, but we now have a Bard that's getting sturdier, a Bladesinger, and a Ranger. So at least two more levels of Warlock might give some good utility.
A late comment, but you've inspired my next Adventurer build. I'm still considering the Race to build upon, I'm juggling between a Paladin, Wizard or a Sorcerer, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Thanks for this 'character concept' idea to build upon. - Edited thanks to 'auto-correct' malfunctions.
We stan the Valor bard at my table haha. This debate was great
I appreciate the Valor Bard of Swords for sure!
I was all ready to play a genie warlock but now y'all sold me on hexblade. Being able to play all the stuff at once sounds great
As some one who just DMed for a blade singer, all u need is multiple saving throws for damage in a round to put one down. They can only absorb elements once. A fire, water, earth and air elemental enemy team showed just how far a High AC gets u
So you picked on one player, specifically with saving throws over and over again just to put them down?
Yeah, you're a trash Dm. You metagamed in combat in order to beat a player. I'm glad I'm a Dm and not a player. Having to suffer through an ego lord trying to beat his players is taxing.
My favorite gishes were cleric/1 warlock/x. Both were without the hex-blade, but they still rocked. One was strength-based (tempest using a polearm) and the other wisdom-based (nature domain to get shillelagh with quarterstaff and shield). For being one level behind on spellcasting higher level spells you get... heavy armor, healing spells (great to us with pact slots before a short rest), ability to swap spells on prayers, more cantrips (including guidance), two first level spell slots (which are extremely valuable even at high levels to cast hex or other minor spells without using pact slots), ritual casting, and a first-level cleric ability which can be useful. Likewise, a level of bard gives you two immediate slots, bard song, more cantrips, etc.
I’ve always wanted to play a red mage
As long as we are talking FF and not Thay lol. The clockwork sorcadin, the artificer dipped wizard (of your favourite school), the palabard, a high level arcana cleric, bring the mixture of "white" and "black" magic. If you add the Ravnica backgrounds and the dragonmarked races (specially the healing halfling) you can make a really all rounded character
College of swords Bard 6, Divine Soul Sorcerer the rest of the way.
You're welcome friend.
Lemme tell you about bards...
@@antonlowe5370 yes but, it needs to be a lore for it to actually feel like so, those 2 extra spell secrets are BASIC need
@@thegoblin3629 And miss on all the 4+ level spells as most modules end at 12-13? No thanks
Yall sleeping on Swords Bard. They brought up multiclass but didn't mention that 1 level dip from bard to hexblade make swords bard better than Hexblade in every way... There's plenty spells in there to increase your attack damage or make you more accurate as a swords bard... Faerie Fire works with both spells and attacks... Hold person... auto crits?? You aren't using every spell in the bard list... just the ones that you need to make you Gish. Then with a HB dip they get armor of agathys, hex, shield, hellish rebuke, etc... .
Bard is D8, has Dueling and Two-Weapons fighting style (unlike bladesinger or hexblade), Flourish is an actual feature that increases damage and adds a melee feature and can increase your AC by a LOT, and has access to great Gish spells through Ranger and Paladin magical secrets (steel wind strike, destructive wave, smites, aoe attacks..)... Yall sleeping. The only thing Bladesinger has over Swords Bard is the new extra attack feature (but with a one level dip in hexblade that is mostly mitigated).
Hexblade + Shadow monk. I'm having a ton of fun.
Dope ninja build
My Tabaxi Bladesinger/Swashbuckler is pretty good. Also had a Hobgoblin War Magic wizard with a few levels of fighter that was pretty good.
So when are we getting the best gunslinging x spell-casting potential
bladesinger with proficinency in firearms
Wizard With A Gun
I am playing a Bladesinger, but I'm going full damage deal with elemental spells, picking things up like Shield, Haste, and Counterspell along the way.
Now consider: swords/hexblade. 🤯
Currently getting ready to play a college of swords bard, with a dip into Hexblade for the Charisma to hit and dmg buff.
While referring to the Bladesinger: "At the end of the day, you're still a Wizard." - Monty
The real debate in this video:
When you hear the phrase, "a Wizard", do you hear it in Gandalf's voice.. Or Hagrid's?
Gandalf. Ian McKellan’s voice is indelibly imprinted in my head.
First things first..... Gandalf is a Paladin
@@tiagopedrosa6746 According to the rules of bladesinging, as long as you don't use 2 hands on a weapon, you can have staff in one hand, sword in the other. Bladesinger delivers a Gandalf with 9th level spells.
@@thegoblin3629 And if that staff is a Staff of Power, now you're really cranking the AC. Don't sleep on the dual wielder feat! =)
@@thegoblin3629 They can, but Paladin, specifically Sorcadins can do it better... and also Gandalf is a serve of the Valar, a paladin one could say. Fits more in Lore and Powerplay
My only real issue with Bladesinger is that you can't Bladesong with a greatsword as you mentioned, so the old Gith feeling isn't there. One of my favourite gish builds is a pure War Wizard Githyanki with the Heavily Armoured feat. A little MAD as you want str/con/int, but you can build it to go more int or str depending on your spell choices. And later you can get extra attack from Tenser's Transformation or Tasha's Otherwordly Guise.
At higher tiers of play Wizards become so powerful that staying on the frontline and hitting things with a sword just seems beneath them. Bladesingers are great gishes but high level wizards don't need to be a gish, and some of the other wizard subclasses offer better benefits in the long term.
This is exactly what I was thinking. The Hexblade will maintain a gish play style throughout a campaign, but the Bladesinger will end up benefitting more from just being a wizard. Which, to me, makes it less of a gish at higher tiers. It's still badass though.
I'd much rather have an abjurer in a party than a blade singer. But... Both are full arcane casters.
Until some mook tries to get up in a high level bladesinger's face and gets Rorschached.
I feel like it's less "magic is super powerful and op lol" and more "the bladesinger will be outscaled in damage and fucking die on the front lines past level 14" personally. Like, don't get me wrong, they're tough *for a wizard.* But they still have the lowest HD, they're still MAD so likely low con, and every single spell you cast for the sake of protecting yourself is a spell you aren't casting for the sake of helping the team.
Solved with real gishes, their queen sucks away their mind power and soul for herself at like lvl 16.
One of my players is playing a Swords Bard that dipped their toes in Hexblade Warlock for two levels. It's a very potent combo! They used magical secrets for Counterspell and Fireball, and just dance around the battlefield, leaving bloody art in their wake.
Going into this I really really want hexblade to be the best because it's my favorite but I know you Dudrs are going to manage to change my mind
While I prefer the Blade Singer style wise, the Hexblade will give it a good run for its money especially if both are played right.
Ranger all the way lol.
@@chuckmoore7428 horizon Walker isn’t a bad choice with haste and misty step
Two levels of blade singer/ 18 levels of trickster rogue. Try it !
Clearly my next character needs to be a Bladesinger/hexblade.. I'll call it a 'Hexsinger'! 🤘
Also I now know what my heavy metal band name will be if I ever start one! 😂
One of the cool things about the Bard as a gish is their access to Heat Metal, which gives you an early way to weaponize your bonus action. Open by casting it, then go in and wreck your target in a one-on-one duel. And with Magical Secrets you can pick up Haste, Counterspell and other neat gish spells, maybe even Tenser's Transformation. My favorite spell for this playstyle is Steelwind Strike.
Also, Bard Lvl 20 is terrible, so just take one level of Hexblade Warlock or Fighter - you'll get medium armor and shields and either a short rest spell slot, hex, shield and Cha to attack, or an (additional) Fighting Style and Second Wind. If you don't have a need to have 5 ASIs, you can even put on another level of either for Eldritch Invocation or Action Surge.
I kind of feel like all of these subclasses should've been put together in their own separate class, like the Magus in Pathfinder. It seems like if they keep designing a hybrid Gish subclass for several of the main classes, they might as well just make a new class altogether.
I miss my Magus, really fun class. I also loved my 3.5 Beguiler
I personally think it's think much cooler to have subclasses yjet twist a caster class into a magic fighter
I played a Human Variant Swords Bard through Tomb of Annihilation and it was incredibly satisfying!
I started with Healing Word and I took Magic Initiate as my feat to get Hex and Eldritch Blast so at early levels I was dishing out lots of extra damage and was very flexible. Being able to self-heal made a big difference.
By late game I was able to throw down Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, and of course Animate Objects. In one of the deadliest modules of 5e, I always felt like I had a tool for the job and rarely was in a spot where I felt I might die.
Highly recommend for a Gish build!
does a Barbarian that always yells "I CAST AXE" counts?
Asking for a friend
Yes, and no magic user is gonna be brave enough to argue.
I have a friend who does something similar.
Always plays some form of archer and he often yells "I cast pointed sticks!".
Honestly I think its all down to how you're going to be playing your character. All three can be the Caster/Fighter and using items/feats they can mitigate their weaknesses in either, but I'd say the following (IMO)
If you're going to be using Magic mostly, then Bladesinger (As the guys said....you're a Wizard). If you're going to be mostly a fighter type then I'd say Hexblade (Base AC, not M.A.D. and better weapon selection). Surprisingly though, this really got me thinking of the Swords and how it can be the best of them all...if you're wanting to play a more subtle caster, who is the parties main face and "tank".
Like the singer, its a full caster, with a good list of spells for buffing/debuffing (just not a blaster). By using the Attack action your movement is buffed by 10ft for free as a feature. Its base AC and HP are better than the Singer and while it can't natively use shields/Shield, I feel like Defensive Flourish is superior to either.
Flourishes are made as part of the attack, so no costing any additional actions and freeing them up for spells. They are eventually infinite, as a 1d6, or up to a 1d12 using bardic inspirations. They don't need to be used until after you confirm the hit, like Divine Smite, so you minimize waste of inspirations. Finally, Defensive Flourish specifically adds to both the attacks damage and your AC until the next turn.
You could then stack this with both Shields and the Shield spell if you got those somehow (via feats/multi-classing/race). At this point your talking about a full caster with a base AC of 19-20 (+2-3 from Dex, +2 from a shield and +15 from Half-Plate) who can then push that between 6-17 points higher, using Defensive Flourish and the Shield spell. This isn't even taking into account any bonuses from magic items.......
i actually disagree strongly with being a full caster for a spellblade... If you have access to 9th level spells, essentially at no point is it more beneficial to use your blade instead of casting spells, in which case youre just a mage.
I agree. Imo a gish wants to fight more than anything and use magic to gain the upper hand against other full melee combatants, and cold steel against the squish. Thus I currently think EKs of myriad varieties fit the Gish archetype best in my view. SL9 is for nerds...4 attacks an action is for beasts!
To really rp a gish when you hit 16 you get absorbed by your lich queen.
My favorite Gish are an Arcane Trickster with the Mobile feat and a Familiar riding in their pack to provide help as needed and a Swashbuckler15/Hexblade5. Both of them are great all-rounders, having a limited spell pool of low level, but being capable of leveraging those limited spell slots in creative ways, and despite not having extra attack, when they do hit, they can hit hard enough to make up for that. Having the rogue class as the basis also makes them highly maneuverable in combat, and the Swashbuckler is amazing as a party face as well.
Haha can confirm I did use shield the absolute most with my eldritch knight
Currently playing a Armorer Artificer 3/Abjuration Wizard X and it is BY FAR my favorite and best gish build ever!