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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- Follow up video on how to do the CAD of this trick here: • 3D MODELING TRICK: Neg...
Reduce your 3d printing time with this modeling method. By looking at the 3d model as the negative space, where not to print, you can make a model that prints in vase mode much faster. In some cases 1/2 the time! I am calling this technique 'Negative Volume Printing' or NVP.
00:00 Introduction
00:19 Helmet example printed in almost half the time
00:36 Replace infill with modelling infill
01:21 Negative Volume Printing
01:34 Flat plate example
02:54 Enclosed curve example
04:05 Conversion of existing file to NVP
06:08 Lightweight PLA
07:11 Future iterations
Where to get the model: www.printables.com/model/1963...
Where to get light weight PLA
This is not the stuff in the video but just as good: LW-PLA amzn.to/3ylSVlc
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View it on Instructables: www.instructables.com/Cut-3D-...
People I would like to notice this video:
@3D Printing Nerd @Thomas Sanladerer @CHEP @Uncle Jessy @Maker's Muse @Ivan Miranda @Teaching Tech @Adam Savage's Tested @Make: @CNC Kitchen - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
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@nerys has a video on this as well here th-cam.com/video/gCgyBmYq_bQ/w-d-xo.html
I’d love to see this technique directly integrated into the slicer!
This is a popular technique used in printing RC airplanes.
I bumped into this effect accidentally with a model I downloaded a while ago, that allowed vase mode for a model without the infill, but this is AWESOME
Watched this even though I don't have a 3D printer. The process was excellent and just before the end I noticed a couple of pictures over your left shoulder which is what brought me to the channel in the first place.
Great to have you hear. Yes that was a fun time. Breaking our first world record was a amazing day.
Just found your channel, like your approach to solving age old issues.
Welcome aboard! And thank you.
Amazing work! This option should be built into slicers, and it could be made to allow "closing" the open gap properly.
Really good idea, thanks
great! something new I probably will use
Awesome
Great job. I'm still confused as to how to implement this in my prints but hopefully someone can break this down even further for a simpleton like myself.
I’ll be doing a series on this and hope to clarify it for everyone. Stay tuned and subscribe!
@@DreadMakerRoberts Awesome, I get this in concept, but how to accomplish this on any shaped object is going to be a super awesome tool to have. I've avoided large prints only because of the print time.
@@KombiGnome This makes me very happy. Nothing better than leveling up in 3D printing and exploring other more challenging stuff.
He's using my system actually or he discovered the same thing I discovered basically a way to do complex multi-surface vase mode prints I have an entire video on this you'll have to go search for it it's not polite to post links to your own videos and other people's videos comments
Basically here's the process you hollow out the model to the thickness you want so whatever separation you want between the outside service and the inside surface and you hollow it out usually you just shrink the model itself and use it as a cut tool to remove the inside or in something like fusion you can probably set an offset for a more accurate inner wall
Now that just gets you to surfaces they still have to be connected in order to do vase mode this is pretty easy you create a slice plane 0.01 mm thick and you cut the model in half but you only go through half the model so think of it more like a c so you're going to cut a line straight through the entire model from top to bottom all the way through to the center of the model so in the case of the helmet to the center of the helmet you have now connected the inside surface with the outside surface it is now from a geometry point of view a single plane you can now use vase mode
For some models that right there might be enough especially if you want to really thin wall and you think just two perimeters will be enough but to go even further you want to have some separation between those walls and you want to connect them you can see the ribs that he used to connect them how do you print those I'm not sure how he does it but here's how I do it I compress my model to 0.01 mm thick so that it becomes a plane you'll have to do this separately for each plane you wish to create a ribbon
I then bisect that planer silhouette of the model in half and I move each half of that half toward each other by double the thickness of the nozzle so if I'm using a 0.8 mm nozzle that's 1.6 mm if I'm using a 0.4 mm nozzle that's 0.8 mm you need this for each side you can't just shrink the model you actually have to offset the model so that the offset between the cut you're creating stays equidistant with the wall of the model again in my video I go into detail how to do this
Once I've shifted each half the double the wall thickness each toward the middle I rejoined them again center them in the model and then cut this creates a single rib on each side that rib needs to be double the wall thickness or nozzle thickness from the outer wall in order for the slicer to not break vase mode this creates enough distance for the nozzle to be able to come from the inner wall to the outer wall make 2x 90° turns and then head back toward the inner wall again
Without stopping and without breaking vase mode because you're coming so close to the outer wall that extrusion will touch the outer wall and meld to it do this multiple times for each rib you wish to create this is a lot easier with symmetrical shapes I use this for example to make rockets and nose cones
The result is you have a complex multi-surface reinforced structure that is a fraction of the weight and takes a fraction of the amount of time to print it on top of that because you're using vase mode cleanliness is extremely high even if you have an improperly tuned to printer because you're not performing any retractions you're just doing a continuous extrusion from start to finish of course the rules for vase mode apply you cannot do this process for a model that cannot already be printed in vase mode if the model would fail as a single perimeter vase mode it's going to fail as this so those rules do not change no Islands no overhangs no flat surfaces that aren't on the top and the bottom unless you want holes
Totally ok with you sharing your link to this. I want to see it. I do follow you but have not seen your video. Came up with this in a similar way I think judging from your other comment.
Simple and effective. Thank you genius!
This has been implemented long since by designers of 3d printable rc airplanes, most prominently by eclipson, for use with LW-PLA.
Yes I came up with this process for making model rocket parts when 3D printed planes started coming out I suspected they were doing something similar in order to get those nice clean lightweight parts
Very cool!
That is so simple and awesome. Thank you for sharing and eager to see more.
Thanks for watching!
Yes! I was taking actual written notes when you were talking to Norm on tested, trying to wrap my head around this.
This week I’ll have another video with the CAD concepts
Great Job!
Thank you! Cheers!
Amazing
Very cool technique Ben! I love seeing new approaches to 3D printing. Will definitely be trying it. Thanks!
You are most welcome
That is really cool. The instructions on how to modify a file is what I am looking forward to.
Glad you like it, and I will do a basics video soon. I suspece the slicer software people would be able to automate this as well.
Hi Ben, it's been a minute, great to see you. I had a similar idea to this, but have been spending my time over in resin land. You have done a great job of fleshing out the details and working through issues, I hadn't considered. Great video.
Thanks! Great to see you here.
I was looking forward to this, since you mentioned it on the Tested Podcast.
Personally, my modeling skills are still very basic, and i can't wrap my head around, how you would incorporate this technique into the design.
Would love to see more about that.
Honestly, it feels like this technique could theoretically be implemented as a feature in the slicer, which would make it so much more accessible.
Agreed this is something the slicer software could sort out .
That's a nice tip. I'd make a companion video where you just do a walk through tutorial of just how to apply this to a model without the other info.
Noted! It will be done soon.
Subscribed. I’ve been enjoying all the stuff you’ve posted here and over in 3DPGBP for a while, but this is gold-standard innovation. Kudos, sir. This is brilliant.
Welcome aboard! And thank you.
thanks looking forward to more
Thank you for watching!
this is about as close to the actual things I was looking for. I was actually looking for ways to make the print go faster by making more fillets in the z that way fewer corners, the acceleration doesn't need to slow down= faster print, still the same integrity.
YES!
Man, thank you for this! A couple years ago I had been trying to think of a way to print more complex shapes in vase mode, and I was maybe 60% of the way to this idea, but I couldn’t quite wrap my head around it. This is the solution I had been looking for! I can’t tell you how happy I am you figured this out!
Glad I could help! Now run with this. I have a few innovations on this idea in the pipe but I am sure others can really make this the new thing.
Wow, Ben that is incredible, somebody should imlement this method as a plugin for Cura or another slicer!
That's what community is for.
Agreed
I thought about printing something like helmets in spyralize mode many times, but didn't know how to handle it!
This is looking soooooo damn cool, I literally want to send you a file or two :D
Great job and I'm looking forward for more videos about NVP.
There will be a tutorial on how to do this soon.
Very interesting! I really hope some of the 3d printing youtubers pick this up! It'd be really nice to see if they can iterate on this.
I hope so too! I want this to take off and for people to innovate on this idea.
@@DreadMakerRoberts it will help if you assemble a list of links in your description to where it's been done before, e.g. th-cam.com/video/gCgyBmYq_bQ/w-d-xo.html and the one I posted earlier.
We already have :-) I've been doing this for years with model rocket parts I have a set of videos on it as well I'm not going to post them here since that's rude :-) but he is either seeing the process or rediscovered the process that has been around for a while I came up with the process six or seven years ago something like that and I suspect I probably wasn't the first one either :-) it's just a little complex to do if I could figure out a way to automate it in something like fusion that would be amazing right now I create each rib manually and you cannot scale these parts if you scale the parts you break the dimensional separations that are required to make it all one piece
🤯🤯🤯🤯 I still don’t fully understand but this is wild. Going to rewatch this a 2nd time after making a coffee. 1000% going to be trying this!
Get me a 3D model and Ill help make it happen for you.
I also do not fully understand. When working with 3D model are you adding lines in sketches then extruding(pushing)
I will be doing a CAD video shortly on how I accomplish this
Have you see Tom Stanton's video on this? I use a .6 nozzle and make slots .10mm wide. Unfortunately i cant add toplayers without mucking about with the Gcode but with chamfers i can trick it to still go over the top and close it off. I have seen others in Simplify3d being able to close off the top with infill. Nerys has an interesting video on the same subject.
Yes there is a lot of use saying this needs to be a slicer thing. Hope one day they implement this sort of slicing
Noice, that's clever.
this is genius
Naw it’s just looking at things differently. But thank you
Nice, I should think it saves filament as well
I did not mention this but it can handle overhangs up to 18 degrees, so the support needed for this style of printing goes WAY down.
@@DreadMakerRoberts Internal filament as well
Hello, thank you for your content! Im doing similar stuff for paste extrusion 3d printing, but mainly using blender. im really interested in how you pulled that triangular structure off (as shown at 7:28) , especially with complex mesh shapes. could you maybe elaborate how you did it in your CAD software?
I will go into more detail in a bit on this. I do need to do followup content for sure
Really interesting, has anyone else done this, never seen it done before on yt
Also, as a noob, would love to see a yt short on how you added the ribs to a downloaded model
Notes and I’ll get in that video for you
This is an awesome technique. You mention light weight PLA - would this work with regular PLA?
Absolutely! I just love the LW stuff and think more people need to try it out
Is there a way to make the printer go outer ring-->zigzag-->inner ring-->inner ring-->zigzag-->outer ring in one fluid motion? U can do this on paper in one move.
I think for this technique to take off, it may need an automated tool for creating slot patterns and the inner hollow negative. Also being able to set the nozzle size to generate the appropriate slots.
I actually have a friend working on this as we type :)
@@DreadMakerRoberts Awesome stuff and thank you and your friend
@@joelw2413 Life got in the way over time. I am getting back to this and seeing what I can pick up. In short, not yet.
This is an interesting technique.
For the Moai example, is the time saving roughly equal to the time it would take to print the infill + travels?
I am guessing so. I haven't dug in that far yet.
No the time savings will be substantially greater because not only are you printing substantially less of the model and only printing the support ribs as necessary to stiffen the model but you're doing the entire thing without ever stopping one continuous extrusion from start to finish believe it or not a huge amount of time in a print is retractions stop retract move push start stop retract move start push all of that takes a long time when you're doing it thousands of times per print it might only be a quarter of a second each time you do it but now multiply that quarter of a second by a thousand or 2,000 or 3000 and suddenly it becomes a substantial amount of time so not only are you printing a lot less while still having some rigidity I would suggest going with a 0.6 mm nozzle! 0.4 mm is borderline too thin for some shapes they'll print fine they just won't be that strong you can also compensate by simply instructing your printer to print at 0.5 or 0.6 mm depending on your printer that might work just fine although it is always better to use the correct size nozzle to avoid over pressure and squish issues
but combine not printing what you don't need to print and removing potentially hundreds if not thousands of those retraction process movements and The Time savings is simply massive
Nice.. Most 3d slicers have Api's like cura,s3d no reason why it cant be included into the software. Nice work🙏
Totally agree!
Would love a modelling guide for how to remix my own models and get this printing
I am working on this video next :)
Hey
I Really Like your Design Skills, will there come more soon from the stuff you teasered in the Video?
Would you give a course for that skills ?
BR
I used to do this years ago and it really burnt me out. Maybe in the future but we will have to see.
@@DreadMakerRoberts sorry to hear that, get well soon :)
You've forget to mention @cnckitchen, I bet Stefan could wrote a Python script for hollowing 😎
I have tagged him in the video and I hope he notices :) thanks for pointing this out!
i didn't understand how the 3d printed will be stronger if you have spaces between them can this way of printing print a mechanical parts like gears and other things with out losing strength
You can make it so the webs join by adjusting the flow of the nozzle so there are no gaps. In the end I think you could do gears quite readily and also build in webs at high strain points.
@@DreadMakerRoberts i get it now by adjusting the flow rate the pla expand after printing so the gaps disappear
@@ahmedmosad7161 Yes exactly. However if you do not use foaming filament you can still crank up the flow and get the same effect. It will squish more material into the gap
Did you try this with a 0.4mm nozzle? I would assume it would produce a very fragile print, yes?
Yes and it does make a fragile print. 0.6 works well though. I have some other tricks up my sleeve for this and will soon show how to do double wall with this technique
@@DreadMakerRoberts Thank you. I'm really looking forward to further videos about this.
Nice technique/ how do you do it?
I’ll cover that in a future video
newer versions of cura and prusa dont seem to slice this properly anymore (they changed engine and probably hide some settings) Edit I think its settings and line width dependent with arachne engine (so ignore me unless you have issues, in which case change line width)
I really need to get back on this topic and start experimenting again like I promised. I will have to have a look into this. I am sure there will be some way with the settings to get things to work properly. I did some experimenting with S3D and found that it did not play well with my models as well. So in the end I need to go through Prusa, Cura, and S3D to figure out what works best etc. Long answer to say I agree that something likely changed and I will need to get on this topic again but have no answer for you currently.
It's not arachne. I use prusaslicer and i tried slicing it with arachne and with classic engine. Both failed.
@@DreadMakerRoberts I just spent some time with a parametrical model in f360 and checked when it will slice properly in prusaslicer.
the most important dimension is the outer wall at the slot. it has to be bigger than nozzle diameter with some margin. for my 0.35mm nozzle it didn't work at 0.4mm, but it's fine with 0.45. Didn't check the values between these 2 yet.
@@bukszpryt_ Thank you for following up. I will need to play with this some more. But that is immensely helpful
@@DreadMakerRoberts Extrusion multiplier higher than 1 is important to fuse the ribs. Without it, even the minimal 0.1 mm gap can stay as a gap. At the small values of the outer wall gap (or however we name it) the ribbs patter will be clearly visible on the outer wall, especially with high extrusion multiplier (1 tested with 1.2), so this value could be higher than absolute minimum that slicer will process. It should all be tuned for given printer and it's nozzle size.
IMO it would be best to make few test prints with different key values before printing anything that should look pretty. On the other hand, some prints could benefit from internal ribbs pattern, for example christmas tree ornaments.
If my printer wouldn't be so annoying, i'd make some more tests. Right now, i got some basics, that i might explore further when i'll actually need it.
A couple of questions about your video first the slots can be infinitely thin because the slicer uses the outer surface of the model and simply takes from the interior surface whatever space it needs to accomplish its task so you can make your slots 0.01 mm thick and probably should that's what I do
However those slots must be 2x the distance from the outer wall of your nozzle thickness so in your case that's slot needs to have a gap of 1.6 mm to the outer wall this is a fact of physics and cannot be argued so I'm wondering how are you getting around it? My guess is your slicer is compensating and allowing it to happen I'm curious what settings you're using in the slicer to do that because if the distance between the slot and the outer wall is not 2x the nozzle diameter in your case 1.6 mm you will have a collision in the slice and that will break vase mode
I'm assuming you're using some sort of thin wall compensation in the slicer and it's making the correction on the fly? Because if I could make my distance to the wall smaller in fact 0.01 would be wonderful then I would be able to scale the model quite a bit and still retain vase mode compatibility I use this process for making model rocket parts for the 7 or 8 years while it is not a difficult process once you wrap your mind around it it is a tedious process :-) anything to make the process easier would be wonderful :-)
Check my other reply on your other comment :) I am fully 200% on board to get the slicer people to make this happen. If you think about this really they should be able to very easily even with standard infill.
@@DreadMakerRoberts this would be pretty hard to do in the slicer itself interestingly enough it might actually be possible because of the open source nature of slicers like cura and slic3r now being backed by printer manufacturer behemoths like ultimaker and prusa
I'm not a programmer though so I don't know if that is something that's even possible from a programming point of view they would basically be doing CAD functions in the slicer right now the slicers can't even determine what is and is not vase mode compatible although this process might actually be easier for them I'm not sure we would have to speak with the coders who make the slicers because they will understand what is and is not feasible things that are easy for us to visualize can sometimes be very difficult to get a piece of software to do
I am positive this can be done quite easy. They already have the base functionality to do this. My coder friends agree
How did you do the cuts/ribs?
In Onshape I took the model and offset the outer face 0.6mm. Then made ribs to conform to the offset face. At that point did a boolean subtraction of the ribs. That make any sense?
@@DreadMakerRoberts In other words, indent/cut upto your ribs pattern upto the offset you made earlier.
It doesn't work with prusaslicer, or i'm doing something wrong.
I can get prusa to work fine and I do need to do a video on those settings. What is happening on your prints? What settings are you tweaking?
Use 0.03mm gaps for stronger parts. Your welcome!!
Ah this is brilliant, I'm looking at getting a 3d printable camera made that I started working on and this would be brilliant for it if I can get it to work. Never done any 3d printing before so worth getting to know now if I do any in the future.
This doesn't work for me, Cura does not want to print the whole model, it ignores about 10-20%. I made a square shape.
What width of nozzle setting do you have for this?
You might find this interesting. It's something I came across while researching my printer. th-cam.com/video/YTorSRpJtqQ/w-d-xo.html This guy is claiming very fast print rates. I'm not sure exactly how it works. I'm guessing that if you go for a high feed rate the starting forces while pulling off the spool might prevent/increase flow and screw up prints. The lack of friction from the spool might help with that. So if you mix your technique with this fast print speed, you might even see faster prints. I've yet to do this myself, so I can't confirm it. I don't need fast prints. Here he is again doing 200mm/s with TPU. th-cam.com/video/3xRfBNNNi1w/w-d-xo.html
The process in general is pretty simple once you wrap your mind around it the execution however is let's just say annoying :-) if you could figure out how to even semi-automate this process in something like fusion 360 that would be worth its weight in gold!
If there was a way for me to put a dozen cut planes through a model and simply instruct fusion okay conform these cut planes to the outer surface with an offset that I defined! That would just be amazing! Because well it's not even remotely difficult it's a pain in the ass :-) I've even added structural ribs to fins integrated launch lugs integrated shock cord mounts and integrated motor mounts all into a single vase mode printed part I can now vase mode print an entire rocket with no retractions anywhere in the entire model and the weight difference is dramatic we're talking about a model going from four or 500 g down to 100 g and the speed difference is also phenomenal we're talking a part that might take 20 hours to print now taking 7 hours to print 8 hours to print while being cleaner lighter smoother and Superior
It's just that process of making the ribs is so tedious at least the way I'm doing it if I could figure out how to instruct fusion to do that in a semi-automated fashion that would be simply stunning because right now I'm using tinkercad :-)
Ok lets get you on Onshape to start. All of this can be automated for sure. You up to do a video discussion on this in the future to basically nerd out on this method? Collaboration kinda thing?
@@DreadMakerRoberts hell yes. So much I want to do with this process!
Sent a email from the one found on your about info on your channel. My email includes mountain wave
Follow up video on how to do the CAD of this trick th-cam.com/video/-dy-4_L4p9s/w-d-xo.html