Majin Obama Explains How Fighting Games are Being Held Back
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ย. 2019
- Noclip FINAL FANTASY XIV Documentary Part #1: • FINAL FANTASY XIV Docu...
ROLLIN' BACK - Explaining how fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode: arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/1...
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During the 2 year transition from fixing FFXIV 1.0 and the re-release for 2.0, Yoshi-P made a huge pdf roadmap outlining all of his plans to fix the game. He also wrote dev letters to the players every 2 weeks without fail from 2011-2013 informing us of their planned adjustments to both the current version of the game and the future version. Then, he made an offer to the core players: If you subscribe for 3 months to 1.0 and help us out, you'll have a lifetime discount on subscription fees for the rest of the game's lifespan.
Five years later I'm still paying the reduced rate of $8/month whereas everyone else that joined when the game actually became good is happily paying $12.99/mo. That man fostered so much goodwill and trust among the community at the time it was insane. He was better than Blizzard when Blizzard was still loved.
I thought the legacy subscription fee was $10/month.
@@MaskedGuyCh There's another discount if you sub for 6 months at a time. Forgot about that.
Thanks for sharing didn't know that
VF4 also had a feature where the game would look at your inputs and tell you why the move you're trying to do isn't working.
What it did damn I never new that
Wait what?
Victor Palacio damn that’s dope as hell. Too bad no games (at least that I know of have that) have that now.
Wow never knew..still have that game may have to look into that. What mode tells you that?
So, as a fighting game outsider ( I've never been into 3D fighters, played a bit of SF/MK 20+ years ago), I'm really interested in picking VF4:evo up, so my question is, how much of the terms in the tutorial translate to fighting games in general? (2D as well as 3D) If at least some of the terms and techniques do translate to other games, then I'm thinking this is great gateway to fighting games. Any info welcomed =)
Yoshi-P - "The company became very arrogant and prideful because of their past sucess"
Thats one of the main problems of the industry today.
In a genre filled with a bunch of Iconic rivalries, you'd think devs would learn from their competition
Thing is most of the long standing titles are in their own lanes.
Tekken faces no real threat or competition as a 3D fighter. VF is dead. Neither SC6 nor DOA6 can hold a candle to T7 right now and DOA has a different draw to it anyway.
Who's competing directly with SF as a mostly grounded 2D fighter? Arguably KOF but KOF XIV was a flop. There's also FEXL but they're not even on the radar.
Who's competing with DBZF as a tag Hyper fighter? MvCI would've been perfect direct competition but that was a total disaster of a game which literally became dead in 6 months.
And in terms of Anime fighters there's actually a lot of competition here but ArcSys holds the monopoly in this niche. GG, BB and now Granblue.
And who's directly competing with NRS games?
So without direct competition in the current situation, each franchise isn't really incentivized to innovate dramatically. All the big players are somewhat staying out of each others way plus its very hard for new IP's to cut a serious share of the market.
Just look at SkullGirls. At the time it was doing a lot of things others weren't and still aren't doing today and is all in all a good game. But it never got beyond the niche indie game stage
this- monopolization of the market through developing niches in the genre is what’s dragging competition between developers through there mud
They’re too complacent with “but our game can do THIS!”
reminds me of Uniquenameosaurus’s arguments in his videos on “why you should pirate anime”
@@MasterRavenClan Damn you are actually right about this.
That is true. The genre's evolution in the 90s depended 100% on the Capcom x Snk competition and the Tekken x VF competition (and the countless minor 2d and 3d fg releases trying to catch the fg wave of the time). Perhaps the most diehard Capcucks, or the alienated players who only played Capcom fg's at the time, must have troubles to admit the fact, but Sf absolutely couldnt have evolved the way It did without Snk's presence. At the time, everything one did was like a response to the other company. Plus Snk has always been more inclined to wild experiments, new ideas, willingly change staple concepts, etc whereas Capcom was always more conservative (and that is still visible in Sf5). So that kind of competition was a huge stimulant for Capcom's growth. And while i'm not as much familiar with the 3d fg history, i believe Tk also somehow "depended" on Vf to stimulate it's growth, mainly Vf2 stimulating the conception of Tk3 (which was like the Sf2 of Tk).
Well said Majin, I don't care about how hard a game is, in fact I love it when they're incredibly technical with longer combos. I might suck at them but I love to watch them, and the thing I need the most isn't a lessend game for my sake, nor a neutral only experience, but better ways to learn and tips to help. That's why I think that UNI is quickly growing in popularity, it keeps the anime depth but gives so many ways to learn that even the pros learn new things when they touch the tutorials. Also, I agree if you want more casuals give em more customization, better netcode, more modes.
Not only casuals want better netcode, better customization
Well said!
They just need to make learning feel good, make feeling themselves get better to give that positive feedback. Better netcode which will help even if people will still smurf. Also, no more DLC palettes let players make their own colors
Recognizing the greatness of Yoshi-P. Amen.
kvk1 man, mad respect for that reference
This is a really great video. This is something I’ve been talking about and thinking about recently with GG Strive gameplay being shown off and the mechanics being described and tekken with $4 gameplay. The biggest thing games need is a robust tutorial. This goes into fighting games slowly being made more and more for casuals. You dont need to take out combos, oki, put in autocombos, or even take out mechanics that fans fell in love with to appeal to casuals. What you need is information. This is where Unist shines at the top for me. So much info for the mechanics of the game and how they split it up to so its not overwhelming and the fact that the combos in the combo trial are actually pretty optimal and they have a section on how to play each character and how to use there moves is amazing. But then you look at DBFZ and I have to go outside of the game to learn a simple trick that holding the Dragon Rush button does more damage, and a significant amount more damage.
This is the biggest critique for me about making fighting appeal more towards casuals. Casuals arent really going to go outside the game to learn about it. So pack as much info into the game as you can. Dont make 90% of the combos in the combo challenge just autocombos. Actually make them optimal this is why I hold Unist up so high and why im so excited for unist clear.
Don't know about uninst but skullgirls has an excelent tutorial. The game itself has it's own design problems but it does teach all fighting game concepts in a simple way.
Renato Ramos yeah that’s definitely a game I need to check out, I’ve heard so many great things about it
Except its not going to happen because their publishers and companies just want the quick sales than anything else
Blazblue Continuum Shift was one of the first fighting games I really got into and had in-depth tutorials, explanations, challenges and character-specific tactics and breakdowns. That's arc system works, which is as Japanese as it gets.
I have a lot of respect for that game, it really opened my mind to how complex and in-depth fighting games could be. While being told in Racheal's Eng voice, no less lol
Game Developers: We want to release a complete game.
Game Company Investors and Stock Holders: No. Divide that complete game into 3 and charge full price for each part.
That is peak Laissez-faire Capitalism.
I remember when Yoshi P. took over and put FFXIV on his back. He was an amazing ambassador for the game. Constantly communicating with the players what was being done and what was changing. It was really refreshing to see his passion out in the open, and relaying that information to that small (at the time) player base.
He saved that game and turned a completely and utter failure into one of the best MMO's ever made. Good on Yoshi P.
Virtua Fighter didn't die for this
It's still the best. So underrated
7:39: "Why is there a lack of uniform standard for our games?"
It's not just fighting games. Just look at PC ports in general. It's always a crapshoot on whether or not the port will even have basic features like good mouse and keyboard controls or rebindable controls. Uniform/industry standards is something we seriously need in videogames as a whole.
To add to your point, I've been wanting things like this for console aswell since I was about 16. EVERY GAME on console or PC needs 100% rebindable controls. Anything less than that is a disservice to your audiance.
FF14, as an example, has native KB+M support for the ps4 version. this should be standard on all games on all consoles.
He sounds so knowledgeable and confident in what he’s saying- I loved every second of it
Majin Obama 👍
You're absolutely right about the need for a robust single-player experience to maintain the attention of casuals. When I first got into Guilty Gear two years ago, I was pretty new to the fighting game genre. My only experience beforehand was mashing buttons at a couple of parties where there was Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat.
What really captivated me when I played GG was its story mode (I started with #reload). Three separate story paths for each character with different endings and character interactions hooked my imagination and I made sure to complete every path. By that point, I had learned the gatling system and basic defence, so playing the game became less about random mashing and more about making informed decisions, which is much more fun.
After finishing story mode, I was hooked on the gameplay and I wanted more, so I cleared arcade mode with every character. Then Survival. Then Mission mode. But Mission mode was hard, so I searched up guides on TH-cam, which lead to me getting recommended videos about the competitive scene, and I absolutely loved how crazy they made my favorite fighting game look. And now, I'm a hardcore Guilty Gear fan.
The point is, if #reload didn't come with all those different and unique single player experiences, I likely would've gotten bored with the game very quickly. Casting a wide net is something many products employ for their marketing, and it only makes sense fighting games should too.
This is the most important video on fighting games I've ever seen.
BTW VF4 Evolution is in my top 5 FGs of all time.
It had all the best tools but the virtua fighter will always be bologna
@@Makneuro07 "Bologna"? VF? You mean more like Steak. The VF series is amazing.
Skullgirls is an example of the necessary things being included like KI and NRS games btw. Frame data, tutorials, great training mode, incredible netcode, button config on character select, fast load times, etc.
Don't forget that Skullgirls launched with no in-game movelist and didn't implement one until MONTHS after release.
@@skootz24 True enough and that wasn't ok. However the game does have very simple inputs though with only 236/214/623 inputs with the exception of Bella's super which was a 360, so it wasn't *too* hard to figure out what your moves were without online reference. With the exception of Valentine's counter super.
It's incredible how people that are so deep into the thing they are making can overlook such simple things just because they can't see the process from the outside in.
It's like Yoshi P said, it's a form of arrogance or complacency to not be able to look past your own perspective.
You are absolutely correct that fighting games need some form of uniformity in design and that only comes from the developers looking around the scene and putting aside their prejudice about how they think it should be done and learn from others who have done it better before.
I honestly believe that fighting game developers need to put aside the desire to grow beyond what they can.
Build a game that works for the people you know will play it.
Sure you can lure in casuals with nice graphics and what not but time has proven that most people won't stick around beyond that.
The thing that fighting game players perceive as the strength of the genre is the thing that is actively pushing casuals away.
I've heard it time and time again.
I don't want to lose, i don't feel like learning this new thing.
To have a chance to get outside players to stick around is to trick then into learning the game.
Make them better without having them 'learn'.
Because that ultimately is the big entry barrier.
Most people play games to have simple fun, alone or with friends.
So they go to easy to grasp coop or competitive games like fortnite or LoL or whatever.
Because you don't need to git gud to play.
You hop in solo or with some buds and you're off to the races.
Fighting games put up such a huge barrier that has to be broken for the genre to grow.
I honestly don't have a simple answer to this.
But making a comprehensive easy to understand and fun to interact with tutorial and training mode might atleast win over some players that are on the fence right now.
It'll do a lot more that fancy graphics and a haphazard story mode i'm sure.
Btw, Yoshi P's role is highly underrated, ff14 almost sank square enix.
The man turned a sinking ship into a golden goose.
And all that by simply doing the logical thing.
So how do you feel about a game like Blazblue? It has a good tutorial for general game mechanics and tutorials for every single character covering their Drives, unique attributes and special moves. It has nice graphics, a lot of cool characters, good training mode, 20+ combo trials for every character, and a wide spectrum of difficulty going from almost braindead (Mai/Nine/Hibiki/Es) to insanely difficult and precise (Valkenhayn/Rachel/Naoto/Litchi). It also has a lot of character colors, great music and gallery art, as well as mappable buttons, and even an auto combo mode if you're THAT shitty of a player. Is this the optimal game for casuals to get into (besides Smash/Rivals of Aether, but that's different)? Because I don't see how else it could improve.
P.S. I didn't mention online because I don't use Nintendo Switch Online and I have friends to play with consistently (ie every other day)
@@salj.5459 BB does have quite a lot of info in it's training mode and trials mode but it's still a lot of text and abstract concepts that are hard to understand for new/casual players.
The hard part in teaching fighting games is removing that specific barrier.
Right now learning a fighting game is like math homework for a lot of people.
I think the big thing is getting people yo understand the language of fighting games in an interactive way.
Make a tutorial that isn't just a text box that says "qcf-A" and let people figure it out from there.
Some of the things GGxrd does is a step in the right direction.
Having you navigate a screen with hazards to make you understand how to move and why it is important to do so.
The big problem with that is that it takes much much more developement time to implement and thus costs much more money.
But if they manage to integrate things like that into the story mode of a game and slowly ramp it up and include so basic combo trial type challenges into critical fights it'll go a long way to teach people the language and the feeling of playing a fighting game beyond just mashing buttons.
Ofcourse there is more to it like communicating character strenghts and weaknesses to a players in a simple to understand way but there are a lot of things developers can do to make games easier to understand.
This doesn't just apply to fighting games.
Many games have shit tutorials.
Many of those are just more playable with less knowledge than fighting games are.
Many developers and players like us are so deeply familiar with videogames that we tend to forget that a lot of things we inherently understand do not come naturally.
And that is the part many games skip over and that is where technical games like fighting games and games like starcraft suffer most.
Because without that basic understanding of videogames you just cannot really play or enjoy these games.
@@cresentdragon If they don't want to take the time to learn something new in a fighting game, chances are they aren't going to stick around anyways. That goes for many other game genres. Most casuals want to be EVO ready day one without the understanding the time and dedication it takes to be good at those games. The new players/casuals get discouraged easily especially when they see a group of good players playing in a room. Just like real combat sports, it is a journey to become decent. And you're not even guaranteed to be the greatest in the game.
I played Tekken competitively for years. At every gathering there's always the one person who has a character they like, get trounced, and then give up. Even when we try to give them tips on their character, help them understand strats and be inviting and encouraging, they just sit there and just listen to us dejected. Or they learn a new combo or move. Try to use it and everyone sees it coming a mile away. They get upset their cool new move isn't connecting while not understanding that they may have to set it up. Or the move is very slow. They didn't understand that many of us have played the game for years to be able to grasp the concepts and basics of the game. Fighting games are a legacy genre. Fighting games have put in many mechanics to ease new players in to no effect. They see someone do an infinite combo or death move and think to themselves "I want no part of that". All while not realizing how long it took that player to learn, execute, fail, practice and execute.
The fighting game genre is a different beast entirely as you really have to use determination, perseverance and exposure to different levels of competition. You can't really beat up on your friends or computer opponents in story mode and then think you can stand toe-to-toe with Justin Wong.
Many thanks for the article link!
I've always thought that the problem of player retention for fighting games was just the availability of players across many skill levels. Devs should try to aim for cross-play among the multiple platforms their games are played on. The current reality for newcomers is that they'll have to take their lumps for a few months while getting drip fed the knowledge and muscle memory essential to be competent in a random multiplayer lobby or spend close to a hundred hours in a lab learning tech before they feel confident enough to jump in. Something like SmUsh, while in the past it didn't used to have motion inputs like fighting games, had down-throw combos that had a bunch of moving parts compared to traditional fighting game tech but was something an initiated SmUsh player could do reliably. I think it's because they have an environment where they can face equally skilled players and slowly build their competency that they also build their confidence and move slowly up the ladder to the point of competitiveness, and for now, I think one of the easier ways to start is to get crossplay done so the base that's already here can at least play with each other while we find more solutions to add on top of that.
Both better netcode and crossplay would do a lot to shore up that front.
@@AirLancer No objections here, hope they consider our feedback.
Are you talking about Smash 4? Because Ultimate doesn't have a lot of grab combos, much less down throw combos. Also I'm not sure what you're trying to say or what that has to do with player retention.
@@salj.5459 The down-throw combos are there. You can look them up. Also, I'm just saying from personal experience. At my locals, there's like nearly a dozen smash setups vs the 1 or 2 traditional fighters and I usually see the same faces there. Whenever I ask a friend if they wanna go play the traditional fighters, they decline because they'd keep losing to the guys over there, but they're always down for smash and I think that's the reason why.
Phu I don't really get it. You're saying that Smash is attractive because it creates an environment in which players can face people with the same skill level? That's just a result of 2 noobs playing, not the game design itself. I'm not sure how it would be less disheartening to get absolutely bodied in Smash by a top player than to get absolutely bodied in a 2D fighter.
Good stuff, man. Keep up the great content!
Yoshi P succeeded IMO for one big reason. He GOT OUT of the Japanese developer mindset of "Not Invented Here". As long as Japanese developers refuse to do this, don't expect much to change. It's a bleak assessment but unfortunately I believe it to be true.
Big true. I can't believe Daisuke's team aren't sold on rollback netcode yet.
Jesus, look, another person who just regurgitates the load Max shoots down their throat.
Max doesn't know what he's talking about and you should never let him speak from a position of authority on Japanese culture. The "Not made here" thing is not exclusive to Japan, there are many countries that *given the option* will use domestic products...Unless their needs cannot be met or it's cheaper to get it elsewhere. Japanese businesses do not differ much from American businesses in that way. (Worked with a plastic building material maunfacturer who marketed their stuff as "Made-in-Japan" guess where our factory was? Vietnam.)
You want non-anecdotal proof? What are the two slides that pop up when booting up GG xrd? UE4? An engine developed by an American developer? After that? Autodesk Softimage? An American software developer? You don't say.
Conchobar that opinion is not limited to Maximilian. I’ve had that opinion for years. Arcsys using UE3 is the exception not the norm. The WHOLE point of showcasing Yoshi Ps success was to demonstrate how he got out of that mindset. Remember how he said no one had played anything outside of their genre which is why they were failing and complacent. Heck one of the points of this entire video is how they are falling behind because they DON’T look outside their bubble
@@ConchobarGG followers gonna follow bro.
@@ConchobarGG I hate to give you blue balls, but Max has previously stated that while he and many other people generally refer to Japan when they talk about fighting games and "not made here", he knows it isn't a mindset exclusive to Japan, or any one country. So, ya know, put your big leader brain away, cuz ya didn't even get it right. Nothing wrong with being a follower. Lots of things wrong with acting like a leader while spreading misinformation.
This is exactly how I feel.
Growing up with the Virtua Fighter series as my 3-D fighter of choice. it's great to be reminded of how great VF4E was on its own.
You bring up some nice questions! More then few of them I never even considered!
Very good food for thought!
Already passing this video around. Thank you for it.
True, we live in a time where you can play any fighting game; but there’s no perfect or game that is the standard.
Yoshi-san's badass! Watched that documentary awhile ago.
We need to stop giving developers a pass because ‘games are hard to make’. A lot of things are hard but that doesn’t mean you can guilt the fan base into accepting an unfinished product. Imagine a painter not painting an entire wall in your house then saying ‘oh sorry I didn’t have the time/money to finish it.. oh well being a painter is hard, you understand right?’
You're absolutely not wrong here, but I do wonder about past gen game development. I recall when popular "Triple A" titles of 2 generations ago had sequels released almost yearly. It feels like any game worthy of a sequel now takes at least twice that time, if not longer before more content is released.
I think our current generation has changed so much in the last 15 years or so that most people discount how the gaming environment is different. Online patches weren't dreamt of on the PS2, so once the game was released, that was sort of it, and you got a new game the following year. In some ways, games seem like bigger projects than they've ever been (may apply more in genres other than fighting games), but it just seems like while other game genres have been able to adapt to this in either budget or manpower, fighting games have not really caught up. I we want a bigger fighting game, we either want new mechanics, new characters, or new features. How much has the formula for COD changed in the last 10 years? How much have open world games like Fallout really changed in the last 15 years? Look at Fallout 4 to 76, they repackaged Fallout 4 as an MMO.
I personally think there's a lot to be said for quality over quantity when it comes to fighting game content, because despite getting all our new characters, skins, and balance patches, we could probably stand to have better fighting games rather than bigger ones.
virtual fighter 4 is the most underated game of all time. Some characters are extremely difficult to master. it's amzing
preach it brother. too many people are turned away from these excellent games because they are not given the proper tools to forge a path to success for themselves in it, and instead need to rely on external resources and websites to be a competent player and get the data they need. That is not a good business model and I'm glad you're calling them out on this. Cheers and happy holidays.
VF4 Evo was an amazing game man. The amount of training options and the single player quest mode are STILL lightyears ahead of what most fighting games are giving us nowadays. I miss VF man. My favorite 3-D fighting game series of all time bar none.
So much goes into making a fighting game but it's really tough seeing devs who you thought got the simple stuff before take so many steps back.
I like what was said about looking around at other games. Knowing history makes it way less likely to make the same mistakes that were made.
Exceptional video 👍🏽
To be fair on the button check part, players still do them even when controls are customizable right on the character select. The point of it is to see if your controller is working properly or if any buttons are dying out, which it's not uncommon to see in a tourney where you were already fighting dozens of matches prior.
Virtua fighter series will always be "bang for the buck". I still play it on my old 360.
8:50 despite the criticism, this is why MK11 is one the most selling games of 2019. Good netplay, interesting story, offline modes and lot of contents for casuals. And the majority of the pro fanbase also like the game.
Funny thing is NRS did it before with Injustice 2 and MKX. And not to mention MKX sold more than 10 million copies. I believe this more of what Tekken 7 and SFV sold combined.
Why Capcom and Namco are not looking at what NRS is doing to sell so much copies of their games?
capcom kinda do,but their execution sucks.
NRS are years ahead of capcom and Namco. Japanese developers need to get their heads out of their ass, it honestly reeks of some sort of superiority complex. They are still trying to shove delay based netcode down our throats.
This a great video that kinda explains a lot of the problems I have with fighting games. I started playing fighting games in 2005, my main games before were primarily PC fps games. I had zero info on how to learn them besides seeing a combo video or sirlins ST tutorial. Went to GGPO, got my ass beat, but I pushed on because I was interested in learning. I got a lot of my friends into them as well, but we all kind of stopped playing them over time because the quality of online play just got worse and worse. A lot of these games are being sent to die, and it sucks to see none of its being improved.
I had no idea VF4 had such robust learning features. That's incredible.
Man I miss virtua fighter. It's literally the game that got me into playing fighting games a little more serious and it was hella fun and taught me everything i know about fighting games now. To bad I'm slowly falling out the FGC since alot of these fighting games lately always seem to be missing shit and be trying to sell it to you later or you just have to wait till it's fixed.
I actually picked up VF4E after playing VF4 so much. So glad the game made it to the states when it did, but also hard to find in my area. I knew the tutorials and information they laid out was so robust at the time, but because I was just a casual, I only benefitted so much from what they gave. It still helped me with the quest mode and such (which was godlike itself). Watching this and seeing what the game offers, I'm blown away since there's a lot more than what I remembered even back then. I agree and it sucks there is no standard for fighting games when it comes to info like this. me and another friend always think back to VF4E and always wonder why something like what they offered isn't in more games. Even VF5 didn't uphold the same depth which I was surprised about.
Great commentary
"tHat'S wHy yOu JoIN a DisCoRD"
Doesn't help when anyone I will find to play against even on Discord is still 11 frames of delay or higher. Local versus is the only option for me.
"high on v-bucks and dabbing on Taynos" that got me. Aside from that, very interesting video and it's so well stated that it's hard for me to time it out while I'm playing my game and listening. In a good way
GGPO+R firestarter here, I agree 9000% with what you're saying. You NEED functional non-gameplay elements (not balance, not roster, not mechanics, but usability) to make a game, y'know, at least adequate or "complete".
The only way in my honest opinion to send a message to the devs to change is not through some wimpy-ass yes/no questionnaire after a demo, not through shooting emails at people who say "don't ask me for shit", but through just not buying the game.
If the FGC can't speak out on twitter, through PR representatives, through interviews, through whatever, they can always speak with their wallets. If less money goes from point A to point B, less copies get sold, that sends the biggest message of all: an economic one.
I don't remember when harada put up the "don't ask me for shit" slogan, but if it was after arcade tekken 7 with its release date nonsense, that's fair. However, maybe he'll take it down if Tekken 8 proves to have Tekken 7's lobbies, online rematch system, netcode, and load times.
That is, if we choose to think before we buy, wait for the reviews, but not for the patches.
So people, if you are a fan of (insert fighting game series here), and the next iteration of such is on the horizon, you have every right to be excited.
But for the love of god, try your best to not yell on twitter and buy the damn game anyways. Actions speak louder than words.
The "don't ask me for shit" quote is quite a bit older than that. I believe around the time of pre-BR Tekken 6? Even if it was post console release, that makes it nearly 10 years old.
First of all, thank you for always keeping it 100.
Second, this is a conversation me and my group of FG friends have had on a weekly/monthly basis for about 3-4 years now. it's incredibly frustrating and demoralizing the state these games come out in, and how much potential they squander, and the wrong conclusions they draw from high initial sales, ignoring the steep drop-offs in player numbers, after the initial buyers aren't taught to love the games.
Everyone could be eating, man. We could all be in a better place if these devs weren't working in an absolute vacuum, and were listening to their players and looking at their peers.
I love fighting games, but I don't love this groundhog day of disappointments. Makes it really hard to keep going.
There's also another way.
With the release of GGPO as open source, and the continued support of MUGEN and the general technical success of smaller Dev games like Skullgirls, there's a lot of room for the FGC in the open source movement.
The only Caveat with this is that all content, including modules like Training/tutorial mode, and characters/stages, would need to be community made and reviewed. However, the community would finally be directly in the drivers seat.
I theorized if GGPO went open source there could be a renaissance of fighting games, now people just need to take advantage of it instead of leaving it up to big developers.
It's a nice idea, but it could backfire. That's putting a lot of trust in the community to come together and agree on what they would want. There's a lot of toxic fans out there, just like in any other genre. An entire civil war could erupt over any one little thing, whether it's a character/stage/mode/feature, etc, then nothing would get done
@@paddyofurniture9523 Even if it's bad, it's still good to have around as an example. There are always those types of concerns when establishing any open source project.
There is a philosophy of forking engrained in open source too, that if developers lose their way the open source code can simply be developed by new people.
Regarding re-inventing the wheel.
Devs aside publishers/ companies/ enterprises want to avoid monopoly/ dependencies.
In house systems/ software is preferred to getting it from open source or paying royalty.
Just look at the Google and Huawei situation that happened this year.
It's not as simple as X company is doing it better, let's outsource it to them.
The problem isn't even re-inventing the wheel. Re-inventing the wheel can make a better wheel. The problem is developers aren't even putting the wheels in at all.
If re-inventing the wheel was the problem, we'd have weird training modes that are rough around the edges. Instead, we're just getting worse training modes period. There's no re-invention occurring. It's just regressing.
Really good vid, and want to mention that granblue fantasy vs has a pretty cool tutorial and I also found recently that it has a complete glossary of ALL the FGC terminology which was amazing, of course that it is under the glossary section of the game but it did took me a while to go there and check it out cos guess what I think that section was when I first saw it? I thought it was just a description of the characters, weapons, etc so I didn't paid much attention to it and it took me to be kinda bored and decided to check what the menu had to offer... I wish so much the game would tell from the main menu: "hey check out glossary you have an extensive explanation of every FG terminology there is!"
GBFV did a lot of things right the training mode it's awesome, it has "news" features built into the game main menu that u see when u just open the game that not only tells u what the lastest news of the game itself is but also community news regarding major tournaments and such which is awesome! In short I believe arcsys does cares about many of the things Majin Obama mention in this video, sure dbfz didn't had some of the training features day one but all those things were on day one for GBFV so they're learning as we go and just as the fact they listen to the community about rollback netcode they also listen about all these other things and THEY CARE! I have no idea what capcom fighting divition is like but for sure they have higher ups they need to answer to, while arcsys even if they have partnerships with other companies like bandai, or Cygames, but they pretty much do whatever they want with the games they make.
So in summary I believe Arcsys will keep pushing to make things better and we can only hope other devs from other game companies will fallow their example!
VF4Evo still has the best tutorial of any fighting game, to this day.
Why?
Puleva wargamer Because on top of having very deep settings for training mode, it also covers every system, sub-system, character etc in great detail, to the point of going into specific match up strategies. It explains when and why you should use certain moves/strategies, and even tells you when you’ve got the timing wrong. It’s almost more like a Virtua Fighter coach than it is a tutorial.
Of course, a lot of those features couldn’t be included in a game day one, simply because they are dependent on a meta developing around the game, and for budgetary reasons (VF4Evo is the third iteration of that game, after all, with its own seperate budget). But it is the gold standard regardless.
@@CrossfacePanda Thats impresive
Unist has a great tutorial mode as well
Yea VF 4 Evo's tutorial system is downright amazing. I used to spend hours in training mode just learning stuff. Even after all these years it's still head and shoulders above other fighting games tutorials.
From the writers, composers, and obviously the man himself Yoshi-P , the devs of ff14 express an amount of soul missing in modern video games and as a fan i appreciate it.
Virtua Fighter 4 was my first Fighting game. Respect.
wow i hope some folks at capcom/snk/namco/sega see this. so many super valid points in this video! 🙌🙌🙌
Majin Obama talking absolute sense for 12 minutes straight is what made me sub to this channel.
Subscribed for putting respect on Virtua Fighter 4 Evo's name.
Beautifully said. I hope this reaches Namco's ears.
Tekken is killing it right now. Namco aint hearing shit
This convo should be gettin relevant again right about now, and the algorithm knows it
As I live and breathe: I finish rewatching this video and scroll back to my feed to see that Jiyuna just posted “Time Is A Flat Circle” less than an hour ago... @ANIMEILLUMINATI
Wait, @ANIMEILLUMINATI was that last community post at me, lol? I actually meant that it’s really cool how these things repeat themselves and you all have such a close perspective/accurate predictions on them
I feel you Majin
This is a big brain video
On an unrelated note i really want another virtua fighter, Goh was such a dope character
Very good video
Mike Z did a great panel on this topic at ufgt before it became combo breaker.
What a fucking great piece of not just FG but all game development history.
Preach my man , preach!
Highly intelligent breakdown from Obama. Great points all around. It definitely seems there is a degree of complacency when it comes to developing fighting games. I hope this trend ends and I hope someone hires Obama as an advisor.
I get that developers have it very hard, however, I would rather wait 3 years for a great game than to get an incomplete game in 1 year. SFV definitely could have waited. DBFZ could have added way more to the story mode and other modes in general. Training mode in both SFV and DBZ received great updates but they should have been there from the jump. Hopefully GG Strive takes the lessons learned from these games and delivers an amazing game.
Well said
5:50 is what stood out to me.
I still can't believe strive doesn't have frame data on its 3rd season in 2023
100% agree here. Just look at benchmark tests for fighting games in PC. You MUST keep 60 at all times to ensure a proper experience for both. SF4 had a benchmark test, but SFV doesn't. MK11 has it, but other current fighting games don't. Why skim in something so important?
This video hits the nail right on the head, very well said. What would you say is the most complete fighting game that we have as of now? It seems like every game right now does one thing right and another wrong like you said in the video. It just comes to preference which is unfortunate, I want something that can represent our community to show what we’ve learned over the years.
I got into fighting games not that long ago. I enjoy Cross Tag battle, but the thing is...I feel like the auto combos is holding me back as a player who love to actually learn and challenge myself to became a better fighting gamer. I'm not saying it's bad, I guess it's useful at the same time. I'm learning about BlazBlue Continuum Shift and it's challenging as far as combos. Overall, I agree with y'all. Great video.
Play Blazblue central fiction. It's much better
Interesting to look at this a year later. Do we feel that the Developer Roundtable is accomplishing this or at least moving forward in the right direction?
i had the same exact experience with virtual fighter 4 evolution back in the day i was hooked for a few months lol, i could not believe that the game slid under the radar like it did, i spent tons of time unlocking costumes alone,now more then 50% of a fighting games content is locked behind a DLC wall which IMO GROSSLY shrinks the competitive crowd, really what sucker is going to pay close to $200 for the full experience of the game? greed and absurdly lazy design is killing the genre
Majin...I see you!
The Wheel must always be invented anew.
Shadowbringers isn't just the best MMO right now, the writing and music in that game is so godlike that its the best FF game, period. In terms of storytelling alone in blows every other FF game out of the water. YoshiP and the XIV team doesn't get enough respect outside of MMO circles, though that will probably change when he comes out with FFXVI. That said, you can still kind of see that arrogance that YoshiP said was killing SE inside other fighting game companies. Daisuke said that half his engineers don't think that GGPO is a good fit for Guilty Gear's style. Half of the engineers in ArcSys are feeding Daisuke bullshit excuses for not having basic features in his game. Why? Some kind of misplaced sense of pride and arrogance, just like how the FFXIV 1.0 team would give bullshit excuses for why jumping wasn't in the game.
@@TaigaGalette Unsubscribe. Unironically, that's what YoshiP wants you to do. Go play other games. That said, PVP isn't actually that bad, the problem is queue times. People would have a much more positive view on the PVP if Rival Wings was the main game mode and not Frontlines. As good as the XIV team is, their dumbass idea that 1v1v1 team free for alls is a good idea is doing a lot of harm to the game, especially when better PVP game modes exist.
Ffxiv is not the best mmo dude...
What a modertard dumbass😂
East Wind He hasn’t played any other final fantasy game and has noumra throw up all over him
The design decisions are pretty horrid when it comes to class and class balance too and kinda has always been. Thats one of my main issues with the game. The state of healers and certain classes feeling clunky or needing reworks. A lot of people miss this or flat out ignorant on this subject cause they aren't well versed, but this has plagued the team for a long time.
On another level you can argue about them casualizing/homogenizing (again looking at Shadow bringers and healer changes) the game, but thats the main focus of who they are trying to bring in, so its not an issue so much for me except when it comes to balancing classes. Fighting games are following a similar trend.
send this to arc please
someone translate this to Japanese and send it to Bandai Namco, as well
Don't forget Crapcom
@@yomiknishes6976 i think capcom is learning at this point- since DMC5 was a love letter to the series -easily one of their best products ever.
i think arc is going down a road that might be disastrous if they head down it
I mean crapcom ruined their fighters.
Why arc? Guilty gear xrd series was amazing outside of the questionable online.
Got Dammit thank you.
Thank you, fucking thank you. For making this Got damn video.
I can't say it enough.
There is so much they could do with the genre and easily just by stealing ideas other games have had in the past but they dont. Seems almost all are content to market on name alone and milk the fanbases as much as possible and sad thing is with enough popularity it can work. I mainly play 3d fighters but Tekken, Soul Calibur (my favourite fighting game franchise) and DOA I look at them and its honestly pretty sad to see what is offered even compared to past games in the series.
Would also like to see more takes on the genre love traditional fighters but would also like to see more games like Smash, Dissidia, Gundam, Powerstone, Anarchy Reigns (best character select screen ever), Kill la Kill etc.
Used to be fighters built on the past entries nowadays its all stripped back and sold back to us in pieces. We hardly ever even get character stages and endings anymore. Its almost as if they have hardly any respect for those who actually buy their products just treating them as mindless idiots that will lap up any shit offered at premium price with a big stupid smile on their faces (and sadly they are not entirely wrong).
Yoshi P did a great job with FFXIV and if he was able to assemble his own team I would love to see what kind of fighter he would make (obv not happening as sounds like hes on FFXVI or something atm)
DabbiN On Taynos, hustlin for Vbuks
a lot of fighting game players don’t even play tutorials and when they do they just say “oh i knew these concepts already” yet they all still suck and will bother players and streamers for tips on how to get better
Or they say the game is trash because things aren't going their way. By their way, we all know it means they cannot win, or getaway with muscle memory and gimmicks.
Guilty Gear Xrd are good I heared, and they looks like that.
Others not that good but that helps are KoFXIV, Samurai Shodow and DoA6 tutorials.
@@spacewargamer4181 I thought the tutorial for mortal kombat 11 is pretty good
My favorite thing about Mk11 is the tutorial mode it is a great teacher to play who are the casuals in fighting games or don't understand a lot. While I do wish that every game just had the data in it or on release. In the case of t7 and the 4 dollar issue I don't see that as a big deal b.c its four dollars but I understand why many people were upset about it. T7 was also an arcade port originally not an excuse for it but I think many of our games are plagued with deadlines of when to get it out and smaller budgets. To the point of "just get it out and we can fix from there" . However with that said I agree that we need tools at launch even the Sc6 style were it just tells in a book within the game of how this one character works. Any way man great vid
Making fighting games is tough; tough enough that the only people making them still have either been doing so for ages, or are only just a bit above indie studios. This plays a big part in the lack of universal game features. Older studios like Capcom or Bandai Namco treat fighting games as reasonably tertiary despite how much of their legacy is built on them. French Bread are one of the few reasonably successful indie studios, and they still lack for resources.
By the way Third Strike is one of Yoshi-P’s favourite games.
variety of Combos and increased the world make the world evolve
I think there's a few things going on:
1. I agree with Sajam in that fighting games are no more inherently difficult than any other competitive genre but that since the tools the genre currently provides are so incredibly bad, it just seems that way.
2. Tutorials are still garbage. They're still information dumps that involve trials that are completed and not revisited. You can put the information dumps under "Advanced mechanics" section or something but the core single-player experience SHOULD be the "tutorial", where new players are taught core fighting game principles. I remember a lot of people praising UNIST's tutorial for teaching option selects in game but I think that really misses the mark. I think that as core fans, its easy to get distracted and focus on the things that appeal to us, like option selects and still forget that beginner players may not REALLY understand and experience a more fundamental concept like a throw-strike mixup or something. These are the things single-player content should try and incorporate into their gameplay because as is, fighting game single-player is really really bad. The gameplay in it basically serves as filler between cutscenes to watch and then its never touched again. There's just so much missed opportunity to make things better in that aspect alone. Let alone all the features that are usually not present that core fans want like frame-data, robust training mode, good matchmaking and netcode, instant rematch, online lobbies, etc.
Yes on the tutorial thing. I have been saying for years that the best type of tutorial for a fighting game would be what RTS games have - by that I mean the whole campaign an rts game has. And those campaigns are the tutorial because even in the last mission, you'll get some new things to worry about that you didn't have before. Throughout the campaign you'll have micromanagement checks, time checks, strategy checks, knowledge checks, difficulty spikes, reintroduced concepts in harder form etc. And not once will you go "meh, this tutorial is boring", but rather "whoa, they kidnapped Kerrigan, whatever shall I do next".
Notepad
I can agree with this logic but I can’t say I know how they would implement it into the story mode fights given how different each character is and what advantages/disadvantages they will have against another character, let alone another player.
And I’m not even sure a person could learn during a story mode fights concepts beyond a scraping the surface but that surface is built up if they do the training modes and combo trials.
It’s 2023 and this is still a struggle. Things are better but not really
if killer instinct s2 was released today on pc and ps4 it'd take over the planet.
No
@@Makneuro07 Yes.
My biggest worry the devs will never see it as a problem if the games keep selling
I love me some FFXIV and I felt that Shadowbringers was probably the best MMO expansion ever.
As far as the fighting games go, the lack of tutorial is mind boggling to me and everytime I bring up to Tekken fans they stick their nose up in the air at the thought.
TTT2 had a somewhat unique tutorial with the combot mode. Even the treasure battle mode let me choose my opponents but in T7, the game is so bare bones I literally stopped playing because of how boring it was despite how well balanced the core game was.
The game felt like it was meant for legacy players and Aris even made fun of Tekken 7 for lack of tutorial and openly accepted the money noobs gave him in twitch for noob questions that the game should explain, like throw breaks.
Great video thank you
Developer effort now seems to be going into a million new character costumes and detailed backgrounds
I had the most fun with SFII and Punchout on the wii than any other fg
Just got ninja gaiden2 for 4 bucks and dynasty warriors 5 for buck fifty. Let's see what happens
What's the song in the background
What I don't get is why isn't picking English or Japanese dub at the select screen as well in western releases that have both?
good demos were a great way to get players in also and they arent around much anymore
I wonder if fear of copyright is holding back the uniform evolution. Not sure how those laws work, but maybe everyone else isnt sure either.
Games not teaching the players how to play is the absolute biggest issue I have with games in general. Especially in light of games being dumbed down, over simplified, or just built to close the skill gap by bringing the top down instead of pulling people out of the bottom.
(Probably gonna come off pretty weird past this point)
I've basically been playing Smash Ultimate exclusively as far as fighting games go (not really by choice) and Smash seems like it's the worst in this regard. The game isn't that complex to at it's core. Yet they've still found ways to flatten out the depth. Then they somehow even add mechanics to over-complicate the game in weird ways without mentioning it despite adding "Tips".
And the Training Mode is pretty much as bare bones as it was in 64 (you can't even change CPU difficulty without going back to the character select). It's weird for games to try to be friendly to new players but won't tell players how to play. And for people who might argue that it doesn't matter because Smash is "just a Party game", Mario Party tells you how to play a mini-game beforehand and lets you practice it. At best Smash gives you a video that nobody intentionally watches (who is gonna wait on the title screen or look for the videos menu in a fighting game?) and it explains very little beyond what the buttons do. Mario Party is closer to a proper fighting game tutorial system than Smash Bros.
The FGC community also doesn't complain about anything. If something doesn't work in call of duty, you better bet the entire internet is going to rightfully scream their head off until it's addressed
Yellow Cake My friend, my friend....Ohhhhh yes the FCG complains. They're actually some of the most complaining MF's out there. I consider myself to be part of the FGC and all you hear about is how a character needs to be nerfed because they're "broken".
When a new character is released, there's almost GUARANTEED to be another damn balance patch cuz everyone is gonna fuckin complain about the character until the devs make the change. It's sad, but true. Use Street Fighter V, DragonBall FighterZ and MK11 as prime examples of what I'm talking about. I play all three of those games and you wouldn't BELIEVE how much whining there is between the three. Holy FUCK it's bad....smh lol
He's right, look at Tekken 3 it had so many game modes. Since the dawn of the Internet, they've put less and less single player content in. A lot of the old Tekken games you had to unlock the characters, now, they're all unlocked from the get go. I'm glad Mortal Kombat gives you a lot for your money still as the base game, even if you don't buy any DLC.
Strong agree with Obama's message. STRONG AGREE
Really simplified and short - I think developers aren't looking around because they both don't have to and even don't want to. This is not just developers being stubborn, it's players as well. There's this circular incestuous notion when it comes to fighting games and their players in general where they pride themselves on being some kind of "pariah royalty" when it comes to game development, game design and video games in general.
I mean, that's nice to see from time to time, but not always and not in all aspects. It's like being unnecessary amish-like for none other reason than to figuratively oppose the establishment in some extremely indirect way.
It took Sajam relentlessly spamming videos in fucking 2019. for people to even start talking about how fighting games should have bearable netcodes. And even then you had bunch of people with classics such as "online doesn't matter anyway". That's not the developer talking, that's Joe the incestuous FGC guy. So the developer then also goes like "ok, Joe is definitely special and Joe plays our games, so we'll be special as well" so then they make a game where peak of configuration is to set sound volume, give it to Joe and say "happy labbing" and Joe says "you're goddamn right it is" and the cycle continues.
Fighting games need GGPO netcode button configuration at the character select screen great tutorials teaches new players micro dash combos defense neutral and many offline game modes.
Someone on twitter show this to Harada
Go ahead, he won't even watch it. Mr. "Don't Ask Me for Shit" cares more about his edgy dramatic 20-year-old teen-angst Mishima story and stupid guest characters that nobody asked for.
harada went senile once T7 started lmao.
fakhumram
"do you know who this is?"
Me: fuck yeah, is the guy that needs to buff my DRK damage.