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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- On the 12/08/2020 a Great Western Railway train service traveling from London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads, travelled through a 20 mph speed restriction at 117mph, at Dauntsey in Wiltshire. Whilst the headlines maybe shocking, we look at the story behind the headlines. Exploring emergency and temporary speed restrictions as well as differential speeds, with the aid of the RAIB Report I look at the causes of this train speeding.
RAIB Report
www.gov.uk/gov...
www.dadrail.com/facebook.
20 over 20 would be the obvious failsafe method.
Ah, but that involves common sense thinking. Show me a large company that has those sort of people in charge.....
I'm a commercial delivery driver, and even in a cargo van it's really REALLY easy to fall into that pre-conditioned trap you mention regarding speeds. Construction zones are one area they like to change the speeds out here, especially when they're doing highway work, and sometimes it will vary from day to day (or week to week) depending on what's going on.
Alongside that pre-conditoning of things having been a set way for several weeks, there's two other things that some of those articles might not have taken into account - when you blink at 125 mph, you've traveled a fair distance in that moment, so I can easily see how there might have been a misinterpretation regarding the signage having fallen off, especially with the driver having done their due diligence regarding such work through the notice having been checked before heading out. At such speeds, you not only have fractions of a section to read ~and~ process the info, and by the time your brain goes "hey, wait a moment, was that different?" or for someone to respond over the radio that no, a sign hasn't fallen off it's been updated you've already chewed up most if not all of that distance between the first and second set of signs - you are covering a mile of distance in less than 30 seconds at such speeds after all.
The second thing the articles might not have taken into account? Even a full cargo van going 60mph (say, weighing 12,500lbs GVRW) is going to take a while to stop, now double that speed and make it a significantly larger number of tons heavier...
I agree with a lot of the other commenters - changing the board to say 20/20 would help kickstart even a pre-conditioned mind into going "hey, wait a second, it's only two digits on mine now" and would give the train's operator those extra few valuable seconds to process and react, because it's already going "hey wait, there's something different than what the notice said" and is working on active solutions. Another possible solution could be to have the sign either be a different colour (potentially problematic, as not all colours are high contrast and easily read at speeds and/or distances), or to add in some sort of caution striping around the new signage to draw the eye to it.
i really dont think the driver is at fault here, their thinking after seeing the new speed restriction was that its possible the sign fell apart or fell over, the line controllers in the section prior to the area of the speed restriction could have called the train on the radio and let the driver know about the changes prior to the train getting anywhere near the section at issue. however a 20/20 board would have been helpful or a bit more obvious
She should never have simply assumed that a 125 board was missing. But I agree that explicitly showing both speeds would be better.
Signallers have enough to do without having to contact every train to tell them of a change. That is the whole point of the lineside signs. I can see the trap and 20 over 20 would definitely help but you should never assume. It is no different to approaching a red signal and expecting it to clear because it always has done previously.
I like the idea of the 20 over 20 restriction that you and others have suggested.
I would also suggest that the people issuing Emergency Speed Restrictions should switch to requiring positive confirmation that notices are updated in the depot (instead of just broadcasting them). Getting the person at the depot to take a photograph of the notice and send it back to the person in charge of the ESR would be a good way to confirm that the notice is up.
I also agree that doing this electronically is the best way to go in the long term, but if there are dot matrix signs to provide depot notices, they will go wrong at some point. So there needs to be a manual backup system.
I wonder if the speed restrictions could also be sent to trains, so that a driver can have a screen to look at, before they even start their train, that asks them to confirm any Temporary and Emergency Speed restrictions that are on their route. Something like this, would not need to be an instant decision, for the driver, as they would not be going at 125 MPH while reading it.
And, if there was a date and time for when the last speed restriction came in, it might stop a driver from being preconditioned to expect a certain Emergency Speed Restriction if they saw today's date on a screen that showed all the speed restrictions. That would prompt them to reread everything to look to see what had changed.
You've reminded me of one day on the Advanced Passenger in around 1981. We were approaching Warrington Bank Quay on the down line at I think 125 MPH (perhaps 110) and the Train Captain reminded the Driver via the intercom there was a 30 MPH restriction just past the station. He did a full emergency brake application through the platform which showed how good the HK brakes were and got down I think to around 70-ish. We rocked and rolled through the restriction but were OK. Bear in mind the Driver was supervised because we were at CAPT speed so above line speed and there was usually a Secondman in the lead cab too, so three of them missed the Notice
Thanks for taking the time to tell that story. I love reading other peoples memories of the railway
The solution is dead simple. Have the speed limit with two boards on still but both say 20. That way it's obvious if one has fallen off or not too.
This should be for all restrictions too, not just dual restrictions
@@almostanengineer thats what I meant.
@@gordonlawrence1448 yeah, I read listed that after I hit send 😅
Certainly an option especially when it was previously a differential limit.
Could become the norm for any T/ESR when the normal line speed is differential to begin with or when any differential limit becomes a single speed limit
@@gordonlawrence1448 what about where a speed limit changed recently should it be in a different colour like purple or orange.
A friend of mine laughed when I said "see those flashing lights on the distance? Thats a darlek sign for a speed restriction"!
:-)
‘Pre-conditioned’ is an excellent choice of words.
Thank you :-)
20/20 seems like a perfect solution, as it makes it clear the sign didn’t just fall off. And perhaps replace the Dalek with a Cyberman to indicate that an ESR has been modified
Because it's outbof the ordinary, 20 & 20 double signage would grab the attention.
Agree, I think this is a good idea.
I don't see how double signage actually changes anything. It does make it clear to a layman, but surely, as a train driver, you obey the posted warning and limit. Even it you can see the 125 mph limit sign on the ground, all you know is that the posted limit is 20 mph. Train drivers have a hard job. Due respect to them. This is a tough situation because it is unexpected, but the signage, from what I understand was perfectly clear. It you are driving a train and you suddenly see an unexpected red signal, do you assume it is supposed to be green? I'm inclined to think full emergency and a change of underwear is in order.
Double signage would give an unambiguous indication for both freight and passenger, plus there would be an expectation of double signage as astandard
@@timwoodcock5635 Good points Tim but systems need to acknowledge and anticipate how a human might genuinely misinterpret or misunderstand a sign or signal. A 20 over 20 sign would help avoid misunderstanding - in other words a driver always expects two speeds, one above the other. If subsequently only one sign is shown (because the other has fallen off) the driver KNOWS there's one missing and obeys the one shown.
@@timwoodcock5635 A double sign is failsafe, if there is always meant to be two signs then a missing one indicates a problem, with the current system a missing sign can mean either a global limit or a problem with the sign which is ambiguous. Ambiguity doesn't work in systems that need to be failsafe. Yes you could argue that drivers should default to the displayed speed but reaction time at those speeds along with the out of date depot information and ambiguous sign is going to take a while for the brain to process. Also got to wonder what would happen if the lower limit sign fell off just leaving the higher limit one. Simple rule should be if there is only one limit displayed then stop and report it as there should always be two displayed.
I wrote a book about the wreck of the Pennsylvania Railroad express passenger train "The Broker" at Woodbridge, New Jersey (US) on February 6, 1951. It is still the deadliest accident in state history, with 85 killed and over 500 injured. The short of it is a parallel temporary track had been built along the mainline so a bridge over a new highway could be built. The normal max speed was 65 mph, but that afternoon at 1:01 p.m., trains entering the curve onto the temporary runaround track were supposed to slow to 25 mph through the construction zone. Notice was give to train crews via pre-printed "General Orders" where they signed on. The NY Division of the PRR at the time had a policy that if a speed restriction was planned and posted (as opposed to an emergency), they did not need to have any trackside warnings. It gets complicated, but the engineer of The Broker had been used to running mostly over a part of the line owned by a different railroad, but shared with the PRR. They had a rule that yellow flags or lights would be posted trackside regardless of what kind of restriction it was. He knew about the restriction at Woodbridge, but seems to have been conditioned to look for the yellow signal to know when to start slowing down. He realized too late and ended up hitting the sharp curve rated for 25 mph at somewhere between 45 and 65 mph (it was a steam locomotive with no speedometer or "black box" recorder). The train tumbled down a 40-foot embankment into the street and the cars telescoped into each other with horrific result.
I mention all this because what is so striking from your video is how the means by which speed restrictions get communicated seem to be the same dynamic now as nearly 70 years ago! A lot of the safety systems talked about (at least here in the U.S.) are just computerized variations of analog systems they were talking about in 1951 and earlier.
I called the book "Man Failure" after the term the investigators used to describe what it all came down to - what we today call "human error." Whether it's steam or diesel or electric; whether it's in the U.S. or any other country; no matter how large or small the railroad is - the weakest link in the railroading chain often comes down to the fallible human being in the cab. The PRR was lambasted at the time for relying too heavily on the memories of their engineers. Sure, they were professionals who took their responsibilities very seriously, but they were still mere mortals who might forget or get distracted. Pretty much every comparable railroad in the U.S. and Canada required some sort of trackside reminder, making the PRR something of an outlier in the industry. It could honestly be said that 85 lives might have been saved with a yellow lantern. Fortunately, the incident you describe didn't end in tragedy.
After researching the book, I have been fascinated by how railroads operate, including outside the U.S. I really enjoy your videos and thank you for sharing them!!
I was going to cite that wreck because my dad was on that train! He was in the coach that went over the bridge and rolled down the embankment. He ended up with a broken back, fortunately not paralyzed, but was in a body cast for 8 months. He believed he was the only one left alive in the car. You might imagine what a 5-year old (me) was feeling when his dad didn’t come home that night. BTW, do you have a link to your book?
Thanks for your comment, glad you are enjoying the videos. Ive just googled the book it looks very interesting. Its just gone on my Christmas list :-)
I like the idea of the 20 over 20. It indicates that signage is not missing when a previous differential has been in force.
Trouble with the Pway is they don't get a cab ride often enough so they get to see it how we see it.
I'm only a new viewer, but your presenting skills and videos are getting better each video! Thank you for making these!
Thank you very much!
What a great video,and you put it over very well, I’m a ex steam fireman and driver from 84F,things happen so fast nowadays.and such speeds.Kind Regards
If there was no change on lead in signage I wouldn't expect conditions to have changed.
Exactly that.
It's so easily done unfortunately. One of my colleagues during my time at Thames Trains many years ago hit an ESR at 80 instead of 20 only a few weeks after he'd passed out as a driver. He kept his job after some retraining but it is so easily done. In this day and age of cab radios (we were only just getting CSR back then) I think for ESR's should be reported to each driver. It wouldn't take that long to do.
So True, it is so easy, especially where a speed has been changed like in this case. With GSMR radio, a safety broadcast would be a good idea.
@@DadRail
I see the logic, but wonder if the GSMR system is sufficiently selective for signallers to make such safety broadcasts only to affected trains? My knowledge might be out of date, but apart from very brief visuals (eg 'wait' in response to 'standing at signal') signallers cannot send texts about ESRs over GSMR. If that's correct, there's a risk that drivers within the cellular area get distracted by voice broadcasts that don't apply to them.
Very easy to fall for it. Only slight issue is the driver did register it as they put the brake in, then assumed the signs were incorrect until on top of the ESR. But certainly very easy to do what the driver involved did so no critism on my part, just a learning opportunity for all of us, hence our industry is so safe, even compared with those with more invasive safety systems.
On a seperate note, thank you for doing videos like this and the zoom call (i was working trains at the time so couldn't take part), hopefully you can become the railway version of mentourpilot
Thanks for your comment, glad you are enjoying the videos. Mentourpilot is awesome. Hope you can join us in the next call! watch my facebook and twitter for the dates.
I don't work in rail, but I think it's fairly obvious who is at fault here:
Of the 3 early warning devices available to the driver (depot notice, ATP, warning board), 2 from 3 were set to outdated information and contradicted the remaining 1.
Indeed Network Rail didn't inform GWR about the restriction change (so they could update their deport boards) until after the incident had already happened.
The out of date depot board preconditioned the drive to expect the warning board with a 3. Unsurprisingly when travelling at 120mph the subtle change of it being a 2 caused confusion, and by the time the driver saw the start board the train couldn't be slowed down in time.
The train driver had a brief 30second window in which to digest contradictory information seen briefly and react.
The 30/125 Emergency restriction had been in place for over 6.5 weeks without being changed to a temporary restriction.
Network rail had over 6 weeks to bring in additional safety measures (by changing to a temporary restriction, so any additional emergency restrictions would be more obvious as a change from the expected conditions), which they failed to do.
A 20/20 board, and also a repeated warning boards with the speed limit on them would help catch errors - after all motorway drivers get multiple warning signs for road works etc. with distance count downs for that very reason.
As a former train driver albeit on the london tube, i can see the argument that this was not correctly updated depot level and perhaps there should have been staff at Paddington or intermediate stop before to highlight this.
At least a notice on the station
It's more a nice example of outdated safety systems. In Holland we have the same idea at the older version (newer is only applicable to the high speed line and a few freight yards and is cab based signalling, based on ETCS). However the difference is that we use block sections with integrated speed safety. For example: The normal speed is 140kmh, when there is a Temporary speed restriction, the block will be at for example 40kmh. It is not only visual (temporary signs, same idea as shown in the video). But also integrated in the section. When the driver doesn't follow up the speed restrictions an full emergency stop will be initiated automatically. The difference with the UK is that the signal/block is speed protected instead of only "acknowledged".
This is definitely a general human factors issue and IMO the driver was not strictly at fault.
1. He's left the depot before the notice was changed.
2. He was travelling at line speed. 125mph is the safe limit for legibility.
3. The speed change was significantly lower - a ESR Graduated speed drop to the main ESR would work.
4. Dual sign replaced for single sign, driver relied on training to report 'missing' sign.
5. TSR and ESR signs seem to be much smaller than PSR signs. Make them bigger?
I am not a train driver. However, in my lay opinion, it is absolutely absurd to expect a driver who is legitimately driving a fast passenger train at the correct speed of 125 mph to then see a single sign flash past and then slow down to 20 mph. The slowdown procedure should have been over several miles from way back. The system is totally at fault, not the driver.
That was a really good analysis. In an aviation incident this would be referred to as environmental capture ie. At this place I do this, as I have done every other day. Another phrase which I don’t like is complacency. With regard to the signage and knowing a little more I woud suggest that the 20 over 20 might help remove ambiguity. Another option would be to present any new signs and any changes to existing restrictions in a different format. Maybe a different background or a different colour until the signage is part of the driver’s notices. There is also a case, especially for a 20 mph limit, for the train to be stopped and the driver to be told of the limit. Great piece of work.
Also with gsmr cells, when you drive into a new cell you can get a prerecorded message automatically so the signalman sets it up and everyone gets told.
I think they should change the TSR boards so they are a square with slots for you to slide numbers in that are then locked, so that both speeds are on the same board and there is no possibility of the numbers falling off.
Sounds to me like this was a very easy mistake to make. I would say however, that electronic display boards in depots would be a brilliant addition to the railway. Lots of remote stations have electronic display boards to show you the departure times so in a depot, you’d think would be an easy change to make and in an industry which goes well out of its way to mitigate problems, it’s odd in my mind that this isn’t already the case! Either way, it’s good no one was hurt and hopefully the driver in questions bottom is not as red now!
Exactly Chris, so many ways this could have been mitigated
Sydney’s Inner West Light Rail Line has had TSRs at every crossing of 15kph for the passed 10 years.
I asked an employee once if they were every going to be converted to PSRs. He smiled.
Nice one mate! That should silence all the naysayers, and the addition of some suggestions on how to prevent a recurrence of an incident such as that, absolutely brilliant. Did you mention the inclusion of a “Dalek” in instances like that? Whatever, good video! That’s from a retired ex driver and TCS!
20/20 for me too. Removing ambiguities prevents SPADs
This wihite letters on black board is in Welsh line from Pwllheli/Aberystwych as well.
This because trains on this particural line not use semaphores anymore, just ETCS 2gen.
All information going live to cab, same way as IC train in HST1 line.
But this sytem using metric (Km/h) system.
Seems we might need those great big motorway VMS boards over the tracks
"Temporary Speed Limit 20MPH at Dauntsey"
"Services 200yds"
"Check your fuel level"
"Railway Toll for Forth Bridge"
On second thoughts, maybe not.
Railway toll for forth bridge, I like that, can imagine the driver making an announcement asking the passengers if anybody has any spare change :-)
Part of the problem here is that the ESR was not changed to a TSR a Network rail requirement when an ESR is in place more than 2 weeks. In that time arrangements are made to publish it in the WON. This incident is the very reason that requirement exists. However it could still happen, as this incident did, if the ESR speed changed in less than 2 weeks. As a driver you really need some visual indication of this change and I think the 20/20 idea is a good one, showing positively that a sign has not fallen off. A possible idea to re enforce that information is a different colour ESR indicator (Dalek) Flashing violate lights perhaps. Violate was considered as a new signal aspect as it is an intense light and not easily confused with extraneous lights from the lineside. I had not come across your channel before. Your explanation and animation of a difficult topic was very well presented. Thank you
Did anyone ask why the limit was set at 20 when a train can seemingly travel at 117 over that section without incident?
If every train went over it at line speed I'm sure there would be damage caused
@@DaveTheTrain The same day the restriction was lifted - I am totally confused how that happens.
@@sarowie that's just what happens, they don't gradually put the speed back up. (source I'm also a driver) TSRs and ESRs can disappear between trips. But you don't know why they're there so there's always a risk you could cause damage
In the video he mentions the speed restrictions were due to issues of thermal expansion, so it was likely a hot day and the railway was worried the tracks would buckle and warp without warning.
You could drive a car at 117 mph on the motorway, and its likely that no one would be killed. There's still usually a reason that the speed limit is in place. (Although in this case the reason had perhaps gone by the time that the train went past).
Ok, so obviously the driver has to take a bit of blame here for not erring on the side of caution and reducing speed anyway (given that they DID notice some change in the signage, even though they misinterpreted it). However...
The main issue I can see is that the original 30/125 remained an ESR the whole time, rather than being converted to a TSR (with the 'dalek' being removed) as soon as it was in the WON. If that had been done correctly, then the driver would've known about the change when they saw that the ESR board had reappeared, and been more likely to interpret the situation correctly
I was going to mention this in the video, but I decide against it. I had set the scene for saying that by mentioning ESRs being converted to TSRs
Maybe ESRs should use a different colour from TSRs?
Colour might be difficult as yellow/black is pretty much accepted as the most visible combination. Different shape would work but still wouldn't remove ambiguity if one of the signs fell off.
For those pondering the simple 20 or 20 over 20 speed restriction - you have to consider that all train runnings are worked out almost to the second (well 30 seconds) and any changes to those speeds will impact on the smooth running of the trains and timetable. This could result in trains being cancelled due to crew being in the wrong place or simple congestion because 125mph is 2 miles a minute, 20mph is 1 mile every 3 minutes - in other words 5 miles of journey will have been lost to the passenger train. This will cost a loss in earnings/ profits and all companies in the railway love to blame each other for delays and demand compensation - so all speed restrictions are kept to a minimum. In terms of notifying the driver - many of the problems nowadays exist because of reduced manpower. When signing on points were manned 24/7 - notices were well maintained, like wise when signalling centres had sufficient manpower - advising a train en route was doable - but all areas of train running and crew management have been reduced to a bare minimum. Sadly, until the technology is developed and implemented - this is a trap that will continue to exist.
This is SCARY...
Some of the things that you're just laughing off, are incredibly serious and could easily lead to something, that could lead to something, that could lead to something etc etc, very bad happening.
I'm NOT having a go at you, laughing.! I know you're not laughing at things in that way. More that you're EMBARRASSED of the short comings of the railway world, and this is hopefully why you're bringing it to our attention.
Another GREAT video
Really enjoy them.
Keep'em coming
Rich 🥰🥰🥰.
It's a shame there's no way to force a single yellow on the first signal before the zone. Especially with such a substantial speed change.
I think it would be helpful for the dalek board to be modified in some way if the ESR has changed since the board was installed. It is easy to see why a driver who has previously passed through an ESR would assume that the same limit would apply if they don’t notice any change in signage.
I would imagine that a small change such as moving the Dalek board further from the commencement board might be enough to just catch the attention of a driver and make them think.
Would be time consuming to keep up to date but maybe the dalek board could have a number plate attached which represents the number of whole days the speed restriction has been in place unchanged. In this case, when the speed signs were re-fitted, the number could be returned to zero to indicate that yesterday’s restriction was no longer the case.
Sounds like the industry needs to be able to push data to a screen in the trains cab that instructs the driver of speed changes. Some Stations already tell customers on signs exactly (to a degree) where the train is so there’s technology already there of where the train is, so it can’t be that much more difficult implementing a system to push instructions to the driver... it’d surely be quicker getting the info to the driver too, especially those already on the line
As and when any system of cab signalling is introduced, with all train types on those routes fitted so that lineside signals can be removed, that's exactly what will happen! It's already happening on HS1 and the Cambrian lines.
Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but it seems to me this could have all been avoided with block signaling, maybe establishing a temporary block, that you'd need a token to pass through. If you need track crews out there, you just give them the section token, and no train can pass through the block at any speed. Now there is no need for temporary speed restrictions, since the line would have to be back to service speed before a train could pass through. Nowadays, this could be done electronically, maybe even on peoples phones through an App? Just a random thought.
I think the dalek boards need improving. Drivers should be taught that if you see a dalek board then you HAVE to read the signage as something has changed and if in doubt, slow down.
The problem was that this was an existing dalek board that the driver had already seen. Hence Dad Rail saying he thought the driver may have become "preconditioned" to what that dalek board was leading into.
The suggestion to move the dalek board forward 100 meters or whatever, would break that preconditioning and make the driver assume the ESR had changed.
Nice job explaining the issues. As someone not involved the rail industry it seems incredible to me there's not some kind of dynamically updated in-cab indicator for this kind of thing.
Relying on reading and rememberng information, likely at unreasonably early hours is asking for trouble in a world where technology frequently handles such reminders for us elsewhere. Temporary signs on sticks seems so primitive compared to what we have now with google maps/satnavs etc in cars. I presume the more up-to-date european systems handle this kind of thing automatically?
9:26 The phrase...."Familiarity breads contemp" comes to mind
Fantastic video I love the animation thank you for making it simpler its a tricky one to say but its always good to learn about other people story's on the Railways
Thanks Jack, and great to see you in the live stream. Hope to see you in York soon
@@DadRail Definitely York is a great day out lots of trains and the city is fantastic as well. I enjoyed the steam and I would definitely be interested to join as the Northern Correspondent
@@TravelJackJourneys158 Keep an eye out for the date of the next stream
Hello Dad Rail I am available for the next Live Chat as I have just seen it pop up on TH-cam
A few years ago when the speed limit was changed from 40 mph to 30 mph overnight the police were out in force the first day. Vehicles doing over 30 mph were ticketed. Drivers saying they not not see the new signs were prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. As a quirk - entering the village down the country lane past my house there have never been speed limit signs as the road with is inadequate for the passage of emergency vehicles!!!
It can be done much more simple and safer, see the Danish Railways for a practical example. The permanent speed limits are in the line book, while temporary speed limits (and other changes) are published in a daily bulletin. Train drivers must read these bulletins every day. Should there be any change to the daily bulletin (i.e. emergency speed limits), all affected trains *must* be notified before being allowed to pass the afected section. That means, worst case, the last signal before the limit will show a stop aspect and the driver will have to call the dispatcher.
Oh, and Danish TPWS doesn't actually allow speeding at all, so there's that
That, and all speed limit boards look the same. There is no need for confusion with different kinds of boards and signs, when in the end they all mean the same. Especially when the nature of the speed limits is handed to the driver before they start to drive.
Great video, thank you. I guess it's always tricky to indicate a change to a change, and I presume this may have many iterations: change^n.
Typically this would be handled by a version number, and I wonder if there could either be a sequence number, colour, shape etc which shows an increment in the speed restriction conditions. 🤔
As someone outside the railway industry, it seems odd to me that having spent many years to make railways fail safe and independent of human error, temporary restrictions undermine this and are prone to human error .
Human error is inevitable until full automation takes over. I don't think it will be too long before we start to see it.
Great video, I learned a lot about British AWS signalling! One comment though - the flashing watermark in the top right is really distracting and often gets in the way of graphics.
Thanks for the comment. Feedback taken onboard regarding the watermark.
They should have informed the driver of the change before they were near the ESR. At least the station before. Or even the signaller contacting the driver.
to easy who bothers to check and police these changed. usual problem blame the driver
No wonder this problem occured. Once you establish a temporary 2 speed region of track it should remain a 2 speed region of track, even if both speeds are the same, until the termination of the temporary speed restriction. It doesnt matter if both speeds are the same the two signs should remain otherwise you are at risk of this occuring every time you change one of the speeds
completely agree with you.
Thank you for an interesting video. From Sydney Australia.
Nice channel! I'm in the US, but love English history and railroads. Driver is at fault, but should not be held to account. New subscriber here...
Thanks Andy. And greetings from the UK
Have you ever thought about doing something similar to Mentour Pilot’s air accident videos, but for rail?
Yes you did pronounce Dauntsey correctly.
He certainly did 👍🏻
"100 MPH over the speed limit"
The law: Am I a joke to you?
(no offence).
none taken, but its not illegal.
@@DadRail Well maybe it's some train regulation instead (not dissimilar to the law)
I wasn't aware of this til roughly a week ago - when I read it was exactly the same day as what happened to the HST at Stonehaven I was rather alarmed!
Process. Needs to change having two different signs no ie both should be two signs no errors then you will know if ones fell off
Being a driver in Australia we have something similar. So I know how easy it is to speed over a tsr area. The 20 over 20 speed boards should make it easier to remember
The driver probably does have a point about it appearing like one board has fallen off, and they did report it. I agree that the 20/20 would be the obvious solution, and perhaps a third board with a big red square if the restriction has changed vs one in the same location, to avoid the conditioning issue
In the Netherlands, any (emergency) speed restrictions not published in our weekly or daily operating notices are communicated verbally by the signaller to the driver in a standardised message. They are also not indicated by signs. Temporary speed restrictions that are indicated by signs, are always covered in the weekly and daily operating notices. Therefore, a driver is always aware of any emergency or temporary restriction beforehand and is not expected to gain the information from observing signs, which in my opinion means that a speeding incident could not be caused in this way on our railways. On the other hand, emergency or temporary speed restrictions are rarely fitted to our train protection system (except in cases where a temporary restriction stays in place for a long period of time), and we have no such thing as an AWS, so it is still very possible in the Dutch system to speed (due to driver or signaller error) and indeed we have had a few serious accidents involving speed restrictions over the years. So I am in no way claiming that our system is safer or superior to the British one!
Thanks for such an in depth explaination of what happened, not working on the railways myself I only had a vague idea of how things work.
I wonder if the in-cab radios could be used to relay an automated voice warning about changes to ESRs? It doesn't sound beyond the realm of technological possibility.
Thanks for your comment. In cab radios or GSMR already have this facility with the added protection that the driver can send an acknowledgement back to the signaller to confirm they have understood the message.
It strikes me as odd the speed signs are one over the other indicating to both passenger and freight but the dalek sign you showed is just an overall warning of a change, maybe the dalek sign should be adapted to have the one over the other with the line dividing top and bottom. If ofcourse the two dalek sign you showed was that one over the other as there were two daleks then driver error and maybe as you said an electronic system would be better than sign boards at depos. Maybe even have the dalek board able to program a message into the emergency warning system, get it to beep twice or something to indicate a change with a displayed message telling the driver the recient change in simple ways like 'freight and passenger', i mean if the signal controllers can send messages to the drivers on a read out like it said in a documentary about the paddington railcrash then why not a preprogrammable system in the signage and when the train runs over a contact point the power from the train allows the memory on the sign to forward that message? I dont quite know how the system works currently but i did see a documentary about how the signal atleast used to have a contact point on the trails that caused the beep in the automatic warning system so its possible that could be adapted slightly to send readouts from signage?
Hi, some really brilliant stuff on this channel. I work on a heritage railway so my knowledge of mainline stuff is a not as good but I can see the trap and know how easily you cna fall into them. Probably best to get ESR's out to drivers in the area as and when they are established, at depots and maybe over GSMR? (We use something similiar at our railway, btu at a much smaller scale) Inaddition to the lineside signs. Brilliant video once again, keep up the good work!
Many thanks!
Why not bolt a horizontal plate to the underside of each sign. Solid black for passenger and yellow black dashes for freight. Then if the passenger sign falls off they proceeds at freight speed and notifies the signal man. If the freight falls off, freight stops and asks signalman for advice.
Don’t trains have an electronic messaging system so that drivers can get updates?
To me it seems like you have very little distance to slow down the train to the speed restrictions and to react to signals.
If the train is doing 125mph you only get a split second to look at the speed signs.
You blink and it is gone, so a better method for reporting speed limits would be needed.
Similar to how road works do it should work.
If limit is 125mph, reduce speed limit down to 80mph a few miles back, then step it down to 50mph, then 20mph.
Being 30mph over the restricted limit is better than being over 100mph.
Safer for people who may be working on rails, safer for driver and passengers(in the event of a derail)
As a new viewer the needless animation in the top right corner is pretty distracting - unwatchable really.
Thanks for the feedback. I do like to watermark my work, but I can see your point that maybe it is a bit to intrusive.
Why can't there be a visual warning in the cab? With all the latest technology we have surely a computer can send updated informationn to the driver?
There are different systems and generations of those systems. Some trains are old timers and the tracks are even older. So Yeah: That technology exist, but the role takes a long long time.
Simpler solution, remove the driver entirely. Automation, remove this flawed component in the system (the driver).
No in cab signalling in the UK, the whole reason we are limited to 125mph, we've had trains that can run at 140 since the 80s, Class 91, But without in cab signalling they aren't allowed to.
@@greendayforever2k9 Remove the driver. Removes the cost for trackside signalling, removes the human error element.
It's archaic.
@@djtaylorutube the driver is there for when the machinery fails. Look at the july 2009 washington metro crash, where a section of faulty track-circuiting lead an automated train to slam into the rear of another train, killing 9
We need to implement ERTMS and moving block. As far as I see it, the balise works as a token to tell the train when to send a request to the control centre over GSM-R. In the case of an emergency restriction, that code would be sent to the control centre with the current speed of the train as well as the balise code and the control centre would relay back the maximum speed of the track and the train would apply the brakes automatically as well as alert the driver that the train is over the emergency speed limit. Changing the signs to an LED display would also make it easier for the driver to see whether the line speed is split or one speed.
That would require so much money that they really dont have
Moving block is not necessary for what you describe, and is still experimental for ERTMS. Virtually all ERTMS applications are fixed block.
Isn't moving block about adjusting the speed of trains so they run more efficiently on the tracks? An emergency speed restriction should send a ripple both directions up and down the line so that all trains decelerate smoothly way before the entrance to the speed restriction so that there is no heavy deceleration by a driver, or potential mistakes if the driver misreads the sign. Fixed block uses signals to stop trains rather than control their speed.
Excellent explanation. Thanks.
Thanks Richard - well explained. The Nuneaton derailment in 1975 rightly concentrated minds around TSR/ ESR procedure ('are we doing enough for the drivers?) and rules were tightened. Ever since things have chopped and changed quite often. The sequence of events leading up to Dauntsey was highly unfortunate. In hindsight many would say that it was bound to confuse at least one driver.
Showing 20-over-20 in these (albeit very unusual) situations is a great idea👍. I know p/way people would grumble (!), but given today's manufacturing methods and materials I say it's time to go bolder and implement a separate reflective colour for ESR daleks and signage which drivers agree makes best sense while not clashing with something else e.g. track worker HV. Or in similar vein to mph vs kph signs, reverse the colour scheme and make ESR signs on a black plate with a yellow border and yellow numerals?
Eighteen months on from DAWNTsey, I wonder if rules have now changed?
Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately I don’t think the rules have changed. This is a major incident waiting to happen!
@@DadRail
A pity. I know it can take the industry years to implement even minor rules changes, but it cannot be hard to agree trial areas to test and gather evidence on one or two ideas, then either abandon them as more trouble than they're worth or make the case for nationwide permanent changes.
Pls excuse my "non-knowledge" on British rail signage (being German) but if I got it right the emergency signage plates were located just 200yrds before the established TSR. That´s waaay too short of a distance for a line with speeds of 125mph.
So, I think this was a main contributing factor to the overspeeding but also the fact that regular signage before the restricted section did not (or was not set up to allow) reducing the train speed beforehand.
In Germany line sections with speeds over 100mph must - at least - be fitted with LZB ("LinienZugBeeinflussung") which is an electronic system with a cable in the middle of the track that transmits data like real time speed limits and "target speeds" directly onto a monitor in the cab right in front of the driver.
So, all speeds including ESR´s are fed in real time onto the monitor and drivers are instantly alerted in case of changes.
... and of course the driver must acknowledge these (down) speed changes.
On lines with lower max speed e.g. 80mph there are other procedures in effect.
Aside from signage with plates and accompanying 500Hz magnet to force acknowledgment by the driver in case of ESR´s it is mandatory that trains must be stopped at the preceeding station before the ESR and receive a written notice in order to continue.
Btw. in Germany we don´t have differing speed limits between freight and passenger trains.
If there´s a speed limit it applies to every train.
Maybe an error in my explanation. The warning boards are set up at a distance from the commencement board that allows sufficient room to slow down.
@@DadRail Ok, that gives a slightly different picture.
... but I can still see a flaw in the system in case of ESR´s in that trains are not stopped on the last station before the ESR.
Here’s a tip for drivers/locomotive engineers reading this. Cary some dry erase, or white board magic markers. If there is a temporary or emergency restriction, which you feel might be forgotten, then write it on the windscreen. At the end it can be wiped off with a napkin or towel.
That's a really good idea. That or post it notes stuck to the dashboard
I really enjoy your channel! Learning a lot about rail operations from you. I’ve been in love with UK trains since my first trip to England in the ‘70’s! I just replied to njcurmudgeon’s post because my dad was on the train he referenced.
Thanks very much, really glad you are enjoying the content.
In France if they have to do a speed change that isn't booked (driver being notified before he starts), they use a bright white flashing light to warm the driver of a possible, huge speed change.
Same here with the flashing white Dalek light. problem is there was a restriction added to a restriction, so how do you show that the original restriction has changed?
Emergency temp boards should have another colour for all trains or publish the over over signs the same
My suggestion would be that if there is an emergency speed limit in place, that the signal controller should get on the radio and warn every affected driver say a mile before the ESR comes into place. Either that or the signals before an ESR should be set to yellow.
If the speed restriction is for all trains,one signal plate is okay, BUT ,if it’s a double speed restriction it should be a double plate to give no possibility for confusion...
Make this sense to you?
It does need to change one of my collages had a similar incident on the ECML.
we have a piece of equipment in the cab that could reduce this happening again if only it was used to its potential
but sadly it is not. " can any guess what it could be "
It should be a 20 over 20 or whatever the speed is to make sure the driver will not think there is a falling board. Or have the 20 at a different hight from the rest .
20/20 wouldn't even be necessary, one could just place a placeholder grey board on the bottom speed restriction (since it would cost money to have double signage everywhere) this way a driver could see that there is only 1 speed meant to be displayed
Best solution is what others are saying and having two signs where diff speeds were used previously, or re-siting the warning by a few hundred metres so your brain goes 'huh that was different' and doesn't fall into this trap!
Also in the days of GSM-R a safety broadcast or SMS attached to the signal berth advising of the change would also be beneficial
The ending question is rather self answering. Someone's unintentionally barreled through a 20mph speed limit at close to line speed.
Something in the system needs to change. It clearly has a weakness and that can quite easily be repeated by someone else.
But props to the driver, he immediately reported it! If he was daydreaming and not paying proper attention, he'd likely still be none the wiser. Until he was made aware by his supervisors. Does anyone know if the Driver faced any form of punishment for this incident? I hope not.
As rule I never trust what the newspapers say off the bat. There's been some incidents in my line of work where I've been involved, So I knew exactly what happened. The newspapers get a hold of it and they didn't know all the facts so they just made stuff up. So always take the newspapers with a pinch of salt.
Yeah either a 20/20 or a gradual decrease especially going from a 125 - 20 maybe have a speed restriction to 60/50 then down to a 20 at the area effected either that or have some sort of route indicator implemented in the cab itself
Surely it wouldn't take much to equip each driver with a tablet PC or similar that shows the current route line speed? Ok, these things have to be updated, and there's still a possibility of human error, but relying on pieces of paper pinned on a notice board in a depot? We don't live in the 1920s any more!
Uk rail network does
Best solution would probably be to have the rail safety system which is installed on the part of the track in question require a lower speed or something like that. If that's not possible, the train traffic manager should contact each and every driver on the line in question and inform them about the speed restriction. Working with just a few signs seems like a method which is destined to fail.
With modern technology The Computer should know where the train is, how fast it's going and what the speed limits are. The programming is relatively trivial to alert the driver that he is approaching a temporary or emergency speed limit in time for him to adjust his speed and if necessary apply braking automatically. I realise current trains may not have the hardware in place to implement this, but let's hope something along these lines is being implemented on future trains.
This technology is already in place on HS1.
@@DadRail
And on the Cambrian line out of Shrewsbury.
Hi please could you explain to me one thing I tried to research it but can not find the answer. You know there is sign posted speed limits on the side of the track for example big circle with 80 in the middle, how come high speed trains do not follow these limits and can go at 120mph? and how do the drivers know when to go at 120 or when to follow the 80 sign posted limits? Thank you
surely a modern signalling system can be set to only ever allow a signal to reach a yellow aspect, meaning the driver would be slowing down in anticipation for the next being red?
Trouble is we don’t have a modern signalling system! - even so you would have though so
Maybe they could have a screen in the cab indicating the speed limit?
That can be done, heck GPS units do it.
New cars have this ability too due to linking with internal GPS headunit.
So having a GPS unit with speed limits on rails can be done, only issue is the GPS software map data needs to be updated.
GPS isn't fail safe. It is possible however unlikely that the GPS system could go down and no info gets to the driver. Also GPS doesn't work in tunnels. The technology does exist to do this though via sensors mounted on the track and is in place on HS1.
@@DadRail Dumb GPS units will stop woking, but ones with logic in them that knows the train was on this line and in the event of a failure, the driver has to do things manually.
The GPS idea is an aid that will just automatically limit the max speed of the train
First time watching your video, will be watching more
I don't quite follow one general point. Perhaps someone here can advise me? It sounded like the ESR boards are some 200m before the speed restriction. (Or maybe this was TSR and ESR is further?) Doing 125mph, this distance takes less than 4 seconds to cover. How is one supposed to slow the train any reasonable amount in that time? Even if ESR is further, it would have to be a long long way to slow down in time. If the notice at the depot isn't up by the time the driver leaves, but they don't get radioed (as this person didnt), how can they possibly stop? I guess I'm missing something...
The ESR warning boards (dalek) are placed 200m before the speed warning board. There is then distance known as service braking distance between the warning board and the commencement.
So you have the emergency speed waring board, with audible warning, 200m later the speed warning board with audible warning, and then the commencement board, far enough away from the warning board for the train to sufficiently slow down.
@@DadRail Thank you for the reply! I guessed it must have been something like that, but I wasn't exactly sure. Out of interest, what sort of distance would be required to reduce a Class 800 from ~125mph down to 20mph? (in a way comfortable for passengers!)
@@ShakyRabbit im not 100% sure to be honest. I would imagine around 1 - 1 1/2 miles
@@DadRail Thanks! :)
How hard is it to use the cab radio to inform every driver of the speed restriction just after they leave the previous station? In this case, Swindon.
What happens if it’s nowhere near a location where most trains stop. Massive timetable dislocation stopping every train at a signal to tell the driver verbally.
In actual fact the GSM-R radio has the facility for automatic messages to be be played when the train reaches a set point on the route. Furthermore, the driver must acknowledge these messages, by pressing a button that shows in the signal box that the driver has confirmed their understanding. This is a feature that is very underused in my opinion
@@DadRail Essential IMHO - situations can change quickly and it the tech is there, it should be used. Why else would they have such a function in GSM-R but to warn of incidents, animals on line, ESRs, etc..
in my opinion, this can only be a secondary measure. The signage still needs to be unambiguous.
The system is wrong. You mean to tell in these days of high technology we are still relying on a board at the side of the track! If there has to be a board place it 1 mile back along the track not 200 metres.
That's the uk rail network, its Victorian
You pay the billions to upgrade it then Fred
Clever men learn from their mistakes wise men learn from the mistakes of others.
Well Said.
With modern GPS and communication in cab indication is the obvious way to go. It could be a separate screen or added to speed display screens.
Depends what era of train it is really, that could Only happen its brand spanking new train
Do what we do in the airlines. Before each flight, the flight papers contain all relevant NOTAMS for that flight/series of flights.
There has to be a good case for electronic sign boards where a new restriction could be indicated preferably in a different colour also.