The Apple Silicon Mac Pro was ALMOST good....
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
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I've had my Apple Silicon M2 Ultra Mac Pro for a few months now, and I'm both very happy and extremely disappointed with it... today we'll add more storage to what is essentially Apple's ONLY upgradable Mac, and discuss the price you have to pay to get there
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Luke, the MacBook Air got updated. Would you volunteer to go and get into credit card debt again for us please…? Just one more time. 👉👈
I thought you were kidding so I checked. Not kidding.
@@joshuakolton9955 If i have it correct, Apple will release new products every day of this week. 🙂
ikr
The new MacBook Air isn't worth it based on the specs.
Idk maybe 🥺👉👈
This is the reason why Im keeping my Intel Mac Pro. I got tons of memory, I can add almost unlimited amount of storage AND upgrade my GPU! Sounds like a much better deal to me.
As professionals we just wanted the Apple silicon to support GPUs. Adding AMD 6800 series or Nvidia 4000 series card support would’ve made this an amazing product. Apple hates us tho.
I get that the Apple GPU wouldn't be able to work with AMD or NVIDIA as a graphics card, but it could still be used as a compute card. As good as Apple Silicon is, if you just need a lot of compute power no one is more efficient than NVIDIA and no one is more performant than AMD.
@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 of corse it could work ..... they just dont want to bother to make it work
@MegaRyan123456 That may require hardware changes. Not allowing them as compute cards is purely software and they probably had to do more work to make it that way.
Depends. The field I am entering is more about CPU and RAM and not GPU. We have GB/core as the measurement needed. The files my field that I will work in will literally output big terabytes file. Crunching it will need a lot of CPU cores and RAM. M2 Mac Pro is almost perfect but it’s better for us to wait for a 1TB RAM Mac Pro with a possible 30+ CPU cores in the future. Imagine the capabilities of that.
Meehh You don't need AMD 5700 serie ore Nvidia 4000 series when M4 coming up M5 will change totally the market!
That's just depressing.
lol upgradable storage. Exclusive premium feature on Mac. Standard across the rest of the industry.
With the $3k difference between the Mac Studio and Pro you could build a HUGE redundant 10 Gig NAS with a sizeable and fast NVME cache. I spent less than a grand on an Intel i5 powered NAS with two 14TB drives and a 500GB NVME cache SSD. In my opinion a fast storage server is the most sensible and future-proof option.
you gotta believe Apple is gonna figure out how to glue together 2x m3 Ultra chips and create some differentiation for this machine. That's all it needs really to justify its price.
Problem is when they do that they’ll tack another 4K to the price I bet 😢
No they don't. Apple wants this machine dead. It's too expensive to develop & maintain for a small subset of customers with specialized needs. They'll tax those users until they all convert off to other products like Mac Studio so they can finally kill the Mac Pro.
that is basically a given imo, it will happen for sure
They need a reason to charge double the studio, thats why this machine exists
They needed to show on paper that the transition is complete.
The original planned Apple Silicon Mac Pro was discontinued before it hit the production.
Those things are too damn expensive!!
The sad thing here is that you haven’t even seen what happens when you try to update when there’s pcie storage added. You have to manually unplug all non system drive storage from the mac pro to install upgrades (and possibly updates of significance as well). MacOs will basically tell you that it the drive isn’t a valid target because the macOS devs are so blind to this product that they didn’t account for it being used this way. The pro is that getting into the system physically isn’t as painful, but it still is awful knowing you have their halo product and it is treated like that. Also, not that it’s worth the cost, but no one ever talks about how much easier it is to de-dust the mac pro vs. mac mini or studio. If you live in hotter climates with greater humidity dust removal is a significant maintenance activity.
I suspect there were too many leftover Mac Pro chassis, and Apple had to find a way to fill them. 😂 All without reeeeally giving us expansion.
After over 20 years with Apple, I decide to build my first custom PC for animation with two GPU. I will still keep my M2 studio for other task but not for animation. Apple is no longer a computer one could upgrade and difficult. I will be testing my new PC in the coming days.
My dream was that Apple somehow created a modular compute unit that could be user-replaced, something like what Intel did on the nuc 9.
That way you could keep the pcei lanes, and the case, but could upgrade the cpu/gpu/ram down the line.
Mac Pro 2019
Yea that would have been good
I wonder what their cost is to produce that case though.. that's gotta be like $700-$1,000 of that additional cost. From what I hear they are kinda bulletproof though at-least.. and gorgeous. I think mainly film studios are buying these.. never met a regular person with a modern one anyways.
Neat video.. crazy howe cheap you can upgrade SSD yourself with name brand stuff versus what apple is charging.
You can just go with Thunderbolt storage for that 32 TB - there is no need to mount them over PCI since they are cold storage files, why do you need any more than PCIE x4
back in the day when storage upgradeability is obviously to all the Macs, I mean even the Macbook Air or Pro really can do that but now storage upgradeability on a Mac Pro, yes, the Mac Pro is a pleasure.
Hey Luke - Just FYI, if you're going with Ernie, then it's Bert, not Burt. I still wish they'd made an iMac using the Pro Display XDR shell as a case - now that would be a good compromise between a Mac Pro and the Mac Studio (which I have)
Luke, I think I agree with your potentially good assessment of the Mac Pro. In 2006, when I was running a prepress department (yes, printing presses!) I worked with the first Mac Pros and loved them for their serious design and expandability. Then in 2016, after retiring, when I was involved in a film documentary, I anticipated and drooled over getting back into a Pro-at the time it was the trashcan model. I could never afford it. And I didn't need to since MacBook Pros got continuously better. Now I'm in a place where my storage needs are expanding drastically with DAM from video and film digitizing. So I'm drooling again. It's about money as always. I'm more than three times your age but I don't have your resources. External nvme drives are where I'm at now, but I very much appreciate your efforts at coming up against Apple's class divide. You at least allow us a glimpse past the privileged walls of the palace.
Nice video format! Finally no more dynamic island intrusion !
To be fair PCIE is a lot more reliable than Thunderbolt, Dave's Garage has a pretty decent video on why you might want to use a Mac Pro if you are planning to expand storage.
The Mac Pro "overflowing" with PCIe? Excuse me? I'm sorry, but this literally made me laugh.
Don't get me wrong, don't think I'm a hater or whatever, but the M2 Max that's in there only has about 24 actual PCIe lanes (might be wrong by 2-4 lanes), which is literally what most 200$ Ryzen CPUs have had for years. All the slots you're seeing inside, except for I think just one or two, are wired through PCIe switches and share bandwidth. This is effectively like connecting two SSDs through the same thunderbolt connection. They will share bandwidth of that port.
You wouldn’t even need PCIe slots in the “Mac Prudio” imho. Just some M.2 slots
An m.2 slot in a MacBook Pro is the dream
Yep, the best thing about the current Mac Pro is the case. I can't rid of the feeling that Apple missed a huge opportunity here - if they had gone back to the "classic Mac Pro" concept of having a separate, replaceable CPU tray, they could have put the M* SoC on a card/module that slots into the backplane, and suddenly the extra cost of the Mac Pro over the Studio make more sense - you'd have to buy a new SoC module from Apple, and it wouldn't be cheap, but it'd give upgradability and justify the Mac Pro price as a longer-term investment.
Even if you had to take it to Apple to do that upgrade it would be cool. For that matter they should have an upgrade available for the 2019 Intel Mac Pro to upgrade to Apple silicon.
This last year I replaced my 5,1 that I used as a home server (that was maxed out thanks to this channel) with a Studio and a Thunderbay 8 for the storage. Definitely overkill but fun and I generally keep devices a long time. As SSD prices come down and density goes up I'm looking forward to when I could combine everything back into one power efficient chassis. I expect I'll be waiting a bit.
Really needs an M3/4 Extreme to make it different from the Mac Studio
Immediately remembered the Airport Extreme when you mentioned that naming, I miss those so much
@@yoshikinanami7434 my whole house was powered on 2 Airport extremes, super wifi
Even then, it wont match with Mac Pro 2019's RAM.
Max itself is already so expensive to manufacture because of its die size which is bigger than 4090's die. Ultra? it's not just more than twice, it's way more than that. Too expensive and yet much harder to manufacture.
That's the limitation of SoC. That's why Apple needs to ditch SoC for laptop and desktop because it only meant for mobile.
@@lol-di3tfSoC is a compromise where you say goodbye to flexibility and future upgrades. The main advantage is the extreme memory bandwidth. That's my point of view.
SoC is a good thing for Apple's consumer Macs. Not for the pro Macs. It's sad that we got no options.
I really wish Apple can split this up! But Apple is doing SoC for one main reason: it's ALL about the money. This is why Apple is having monopoly for RAM and SSD upgrades. And this is why Mac Pro 2023 starts at 7000 dollar: so customers cannot buy it to save money on PCIe based SSD solutions.
The best Macs ever was probably these ones:
Mac Pro 2006-2012 (Tower)
MacBook Pro 2008-2012 (Unibody)
These Macs had affordable base models that you could upgrade a lot after purchase. The common thing about these models: Steve Jobs.
The common thing about Apple Silicon: Tim Cook.
Steve Jobs cared about Apple's economy but much more about the customers than Tim Cook is doing.
Let's hope for a better future no matter if Tim Cook is CEO if another person is CEO.
@@lol-di3tf I'd wager their future is tiles/chiplets, as M3 Max doesn't have an UltraFusion bridge to make an Ultra
This Mac Pro is very limited and worse than the Mac Pro 2013.
A "pro" tower that is unable to upgrade RAM, CPU or GPU. You can't even use the top performing graphics cards in these. Terrible product. A worse deal than the $1000 monitor stand.
You can't use the top-performing graphics cards at all in MacOS, even on Intel macs, so it's not like it matters.
@@Longlius I used AMD cards in my intel mac pro 5,1. Did quite a few installs of high end Radeons for people in them as well. Yeah, it sucked that most NVIDIA cards weren't supported though.
It really sucks this is what the Mac Pro turned into. The 2019 was expensive, but at least you got something for your money (the ability to upgrade basically everything). This new one is a complete waste of the beautifully designed case they made.
I have the Mac Pro 2019 and I wanted to buy the new one. At the same price of the M2 Ultra Mac Pro I assembled a dual RTX4090 + Threadripper cpu + 128GB ecc memory and 8TB of ssds. This workstation destroys the M2 Ultra and every part is replaceable/upgradable. If you use Logic or Final Cut you have to stay with Macs. Video compositing and 3d performs better on powerful gpus and, unfortunately, Apple doesn’t build anymore professional hw for the enterprise level.
3:02 - Harddrive cage for 200 USD, from ebay?!
The observation you had that it's expandable and not upgradable in your first video is something I've certainly quoted many times. I really hope this is a weird stepping stone for something better and not as egregiously badly priced. Gotta get an ASM2824 controller or otherwise for multiple PCIe drives, like the Sonnet but who cares, just two PCIe slots instead of one.
I feel like the Mac Pro is a malicious compliance device, Apple doesn't want to make it but since users who want Mac Pro still want it, they make it but they make one feel the pain so that they rather choose the closed up appliance devices.
RAID 0!! You absolute lunatic 😂
Be careful with those RAID configurations... If either drive fails, you lose ALL the data!
fellow linus tech tips watcher i see
yea, one of colleague told me that he have heard a IT fellow forgot to backup their hdd data regularly with RAID 0. One Day, a drive failed, he lost 12 drive worth of data and is busy as hell just to recover that. my colleague said, before entering the IT industry, he find that funny, but now 🤯🤯🤯🤣🤣🤣
@@manveersingh3241 Affirmative! 😂 also a frequent user of RAID arrays, but never RAID 0
@@peterwan816 Exactly, It’s fine as long as you backup, I think some people assume that’s what RAID does until something goes wrong!
I’d like to know his backup solution
Careful with the Raid Config. If one dies maybe all data is gone
Apple has continuously screwed up the Mac Pro since 2013. I always wanted to get one, but when the 2013 one was introduced I was just finishing up college and couldn't afford it (and didn't like the lack of internal expansion aside from liking the overall design). Then I was excited when the 2019 was announced until I saw the price, and now with the current one the price is still steep, but it's less up-gradable than the 2019... I would have bought one if they where reasonable about it.
Just get a Mac Studio + OWC Thunderbay Flex 8. Boom, instant PCIE + Storage expansion.
That gets you only the equivalent of 2 PCIe gen4 lanes *combined*, which is fine for some uses cases, but the internal slots will provide for much more bandwidth for even a single SSD, let alone several.
i really hope the EU makes storage replacement mandatoryon in any Computer
I forgot this machine existed up until this very moment.
Wouldn’t it be cheaper doing a MacBook Pro m3 pro connected to a 2.5 or 10 gig file server?
What’s your backup solution…? Raid is not a backup
also slots are good for fiber channel cards or 10GB nas connections..and a blackmagic decklink card for color grading to a pro monitor
Ridiculous machine, all I see is cost, cost, cost and more cost, the cheapest MacBook Air is the only product they sell that is kinda worth buying, everything else is total bull crap, there is no reason to buy one of these machines, its just a wank factor thing, a machine of this price, and you cant even upgrade the ram?? or slap in the latest GPU'S, just a waste of cash for 99% of people.
So basically we need a Mac Studio pro
If you could switch out the motherboard for faster future processors at a cheaper cost than a new studio machine, and keep everything else in place, it might make more sense in a “pro” setting.
except Apple doesn't really care about the professional experience. When my $4000 Macbook Pro died 2 yrs ago, it took Apple 28 days to fix it! If the SSD wasn't soldered inside, i could've just replaced it myself and continued working. @FreeYourMac1 is gonna tell more of these stories soon
I don't know why Apple didn't bent to popular pressure and include a way to expand RAM in the Pro. Do a "special" chip for the Pro that had a way to access memory other than unified memory. But make the memory bus hobbled in speed. "Yeah, you can add all the RAM you want, but it will be 1/10th the speed of the unified memory. Your pick".
200 bucks for 1 dollar worth of metal and 1 dollar worth of cable just to connect a hdd/ssd thats crazy
then make it for that money and become a millionaire, srsly ppl have no idea about machining, manufacturing, cost and basically anything
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl 💀💀💀
You are running your ssds in raid0? Is apples 8tb ssd in Macs also raid0? I’m kinda scared to do raid0 but I’d love to have an 8tb main drive
There's an overload of perceived brown-nosing going on here, along with perceived sarcasm, its difficult to sift any real truth from it.
Aw this reminds me I did the indie gogo for the dune pro case and I never got it 😢😅
Apple patted themselves on the back for their supposed environmental efforts, but then wouldn't let people swap their Intel Mac Pro motherboards for a M2 Mac Pro motherboard. Feel like Apple just forgot about all the people who spent thousands on a modular profession computer. I can't believe this Mac Pro didn't come with the 2TB drive so disappointing for the cost.
No point to buying a Mac Pro anymore. The days where spending more on a Mac over a PC but you at least could run windows natively and install the latest video cards to run whatever program or play games is long gone. There’s no value or longevity in a Mac Pro anymore - just ask the trash can Mac buyers or their 2019 Intel Mac Pro brothers.
Luke, I have a challenge for you. Since the Apple MAC PRO Siicon is not upgradable, why not try upgrading the 2019 Mac Pro to Intel Xeon W-3375 or similar ? They are the same family, I bet one of the chip would work and Apple have not told us this
luke lets do another retro bulk rebuild like the 2g iphones!!! polycarbonate macs??
Another advantage of the Mac Pro over the Mac Studio is the convenient access to its interior, allowing for easy removal of accumulated dust.
I think Apple should support 3rd party GPUs (again): internal or eGPUs
not gonna happen
Biggest joke is the fact you actually dont have 78 million PCIe lanes. You only got 16 that are split among all these slots xDDD
Mac Pro lacking GPU support is the worst thing ever. I can't see it being a good value
It's odd to me that you can't get a 2-drive PCIe card to read both drives, yet you can get an OWC 8-drive PCIe 16x Gen 4 card that can manage 64TB (if you have 12 grand to spend on it). Something up with that, bruh.
What happens when you place those PCI/NVME devices into the x16 slots into the bottom of the motherboard? Those SSD cards should be capable of 5GB each, so having them in an x16 slot location may unlock even faster performance. Kind of confused as to why someone wouldn’t max out the highest channels first before going to the lower spec channels. Let us know, that easily makes for more content to bring us. 👍🏼
Am I the only who noticed the hard drive cage on this chassis is positioned right behind the cpu heatsink. I wonder if blasting the drives with the heat will help with their reliability. /s
Dude, just take the difference in cost between the Mac Studio and Mac Pro and get a better 10GbE NAS instead.
"We will call it Burt" Ayoooooo!
Hey Luke, last year i sold my 4th and last Mac Pro (a 2019 Intel 24 core) and got a Studio M2 Ultra. What a relief. After twenty years of super expensive Mac towers i'm not going back, not even for PCI lanes. Now i'm totally depending on TB3/4 ports, luckily the M2 Ultra has -just- about enough of them. My nvme raids aren't as fast as the PCI-card they were on in the 2019 MP, as you concluded. It turns out i don't need the extra speed. 2,7 GB/s is more than plenty for many layers of 4K in FCP. Plus, it does not heat up my room, electricity bill is much lower and i like the small form factor. So long, Mac Pro
As you're aware PCI lanes are possible through enclosures, should you need. I nearly bought a 5,1 in 2019, I'm so glad I didn't, the amount of real estate they take up, not to mention they are essentially large space heaters.
@@claytonberg721 ..and these enclosures also connect via TB, so speedwise, what's the point. Plus i no longer need dedicated capture cards or specific dsp hardware.
You should look into the new usb4 nvme cases they can give you speeds upward of 3000mb/s...
I thought for sure when the Apple Silicon version of the Mac Pro came out that it would have swappable SOC‘s so next year you could easily switch out to the M3 variance by just swapping SOC cards and do that every other year or whenever you felt like doing it.
swappable SOC, from apple? u serious xD
I have the feeling that if Apple becomes more user friendly with those Apple silicon they will gain more territory on the pro side
Needless bling without function. Their target consumers now.
A studio with 2 separate thunderbolt SSD drives should be able to do 5000MB/s in RAID 0. A little slower and uses up two ports. You could add a third…
Video cards. The Mac Pro is useless without the ability to support additional GPUs.
Apple SillyCon...Artist
But with that $3000 diferentes you get a Server with 10Gbe and having 4TB of SSD Cache and 30TB of space.
Yeah, as soon as I saw you trying to do the duel NVME SSD I knew you were doomed to fail. I have an old akito thunderbolt enclosure. Since m.2 NVME SSDs have gone down in price I moved away from the big spinning hard drives to 4 4TB NVME drives. Apple doesn't provide a driver for more than one m.2 SSD per card. Since I was already half in with the four NVME drives I just got 4 slot enclosure from OWC. So I've got an M1max studio with 16 TB external SSD storage, 1TB internal storage, and a spare PCIE slot. I may add a sound card, dunno.
Is every new unit considered to be external by the system? That’s annoying, I think.
Luke is it possible to make a new boot drive with 8tb raid nvme and not use the built in Mac ssd to boot the Mac
The Mac Pro is definitely a missed opportunity. If it had an upgradeable CPU module/card for single/dual/quad Mx Ultras and Apple had produced a dedicated ray tracing card - it would be a machine of legend.
If you can afford it, this machine can host around half pb of storage
Have you tried the Sonnettech add-on chassis options for the Mac Studio? Like to hear your opinion on the performance comparison between the Mac Pro and Mac Studio SSD performance.
Mac Pro was never really good value for the money. It was always a product for people who just wanted the best and were not worried about how much it costs.
I miss the good old Mac Pro 2006-2012 and also PowerMac G5 2003-2005. Affordable towers that you could upgrade later on. It's not just about PCI cards.
Luke, Apple doesn’t make it easy. The Apple Pro computers have (I reckon) been thought of as industrial machines primarily. Although you can buy them retail from their website. Apple 🍎 will sell them primarily through account managers to corporate clients offering discounts to the trade.
Apple, thank you for purchasing their system at full right, now it is truly yours lol
sweet vid Luke. nothing really new in here for me. but still enjoyable to watch :D
I think this is very good for anyone that is doing music production with AVID HDX cards or Universal Audio's UAD Accelerator Cards. Unfortunately that is the only reason why I am considering the Mac Pro over the Studio. I already own the cards. But if you are not a music producer or an audio engineer. Luke is 100% correct about this machine. It was almost a good Mac. If they allow video producers more freedom by adding additional GPU's that support metal this thing would be incredible.
I just couldn't have a computer (much less a "professional" grade machine) that you can't upgrade. At BARE MINUMUM, there should be the ability to upgrade the RAM, but in reality you should at least be able to upgrade the CPU, RAM, GPU, and storage.
you bought a hard drive cage for about 200 dollars ? did he really say that ? da fuck man
Nobody and I mean nobody loves Macs more than Luke Miani, you might say he is their biggest and best customer. And even he is getting burned out on the "triple Apple Tax" of (a) high cost of entry, three thousand dollars just to buy a machine (b) high cost of upgradability when off-the-shelf costs about one tenth the price, and (c) 30 percent Apple tax on all apps and music / movie downloads. If their very best customer is finally fed up, perhaps the bubble has finally burst and a crash is at hand. What I am saying is, SELL YOUR AAPL NOW.
How to get the black magic speed test on windows?
Someone should make one of those stand/dock things that stacks with a Mac Mini/Studio with 4 x m.2 drives and maybe one with 2 HDD. I searched and found some that do 1 HDD and 1 m.2, but that's rather lacking. Storage just seems like a really bad reason to spend $3,000 for an empty box.
QNAP just released a 5 * m.2 / ES1 box. It looks nice and I'm sure you could put a Studio on top of it, but it wouldn't be quite as neat of a stack. Works as either Thunderbolt or NAS which is nice.
Apple should add a PCIe slots to the Mac Studio and even one in mac mini. Unlikely though, as they make good money from what that they charge for memory and storage, and there plenty of rich youtubers who will buy 8tb nand hardrives. I recommend WD black 4tb nvme which is ultra fast and the 2tb Samsung 980pro
Theres is only one solution to the Mac Pro, NVIDIA DRIVERS. I am still running 5,1MP server edition with gtx1060 6gb and get over 100 fps on valorant full maxed out
The only mac which should have stayed intel or just moved to amd.
You know you got rip-off and the people buying Apple stuff know they get rip-off, but but we keep buying from them, what's wrong with us?
i built out the sandisk Blade SSDs and their 4 bay and single transport system setup. love them you can even raid them. great for the mac studio!
I wish Apple makes a smaller box with the same design.
$3000 is nothing for a professional who make money off the computer. It's like 1 week's worth of work.
People who use RAID arrays have a min of 16TB or more of storage. Why use RAID arrays for anything smaller?
So a realistic setup, MacPro is still the best option if you want storage in a Apple Silicon Mac.
So buy a studio and build a nas and a 10 gigabit network!
When are youmgoing to add a NAS?
there are a few options for piggy backing ssd nvme to pcie , but they do cost a bit , sonnet do a x4 piggy , and theres a 2x nvme for macpros 5,1 7,1 should work in the new 2023 pile . :[ 5,1 4ever. :]
Hackintosh.
If Apple would let you update just the SoC in the Mac Pro, it would be worth the extra $3k. With a new M* generation coming out every year, the current machine is clearly not worth the price.
If the Mac Pro would support GPUs it would instantly be worth it. Get the base model, then upgrade the Storage and get a beefy GPU later. 64GB of RAM is more than enough for most people