There's something about Industrial design of the Late-80s into the Early-90s that has always fascinated me, I'm surprised how well the looks have held up over the past 30 years.
The design and tech was well ahead of it's time. The technology used was like a whole different thing compared to their current units in the 90s . I prefer their design even till this day than some of the newer trains
Indeed, these units could still pass off as modern today and, although a little dated inside, are also comfortable, quiet and smooth. Better in fact than many of the much newer units, for instance class 380 and 385 which are horrid looking things, and the class 195 and 331 and 800/801 which are very uncomfortable. BR got a lot of flak back in the day but, love them or loath them, they have produced some excellent and timeless designs over the years.
@@soundseeker63 WORDD ,(I know you werent replying to me but I had to comment) the networker model 465/365s etc are an astounding model of train along side the traction noise and acceleration speed (the newer trains are unbareably quiet in my opinion). It's almost like the only reason they were put into storage was simply because great northern got bored and wanted to try out the 700s and 387s not because theres anything actually wrong with them . Networkers were designed (given they are maintained properly) to not only look modern no matter the year, but functionally to last for decades. A bit of a rework on paint and maybe some updates and theyll literally look just as new as current trains like the 700s etc.
@@bb-3653 365's were not suited to the express duties they given to on Great Northern. That's why they chose to use 387's. They were actually appallingly badly suited to their workings, as they had no air con, no carpet, no plug sockets, tiny tables and iirc no WiFi. The 465's are perfectly suited to their suburban dutiesbut 365's didn't at all. Obviously they are more interesting than electrostars, but the railway is made for the passengers, not the enthusiasts.
@@moose_ringo9161 whilst its initially for travel, I personally dont find harm in making some room for a bit of catering to the enthusiasts lol, or some creative aspect. but that being said they could at least modify the inside or "refurbish" some of them for the duty. Or at the very least give them to another company. Like 319s ..which are older units . But your right, efficiency first ..however I do think it's also nice to have some fun with it....if they can of course
Love these videos, they must take ages to get all of the facts and figures together, ease consider doing one on the history and rolling stock of the Gatwick express
Everyone was so in love with neoliberal economics in the 1980s and 1990s here in the states and in the UK but as a economic model it certainly made things more complicated particularly in terms of standardization of materials, parts and equipment. I was surprised that prior to the privatization that there were preliminary efforts to break up the various rail services preparing the way. Thanks for the video. I learn so much.
The picture at 11:12 is mine, I took it from an old train magazine and uploaded it to another website. The magazine quotes it as a "class 481", 4xx-implying a Southern Reigon DC unit. There are no pictures of the class 342, although I think that whatever train they were going to make for Thameslink, was intended to be used on the CTRL, as part of BR's orginal CTRL plan was to run Thameslink trains onto the high-speed line to Ashford.
@@Robert-tl2vg You've also found yourself watching a history on trains video, already seems pretty nerdy to me, I for one think the history of mail rail operations in the uk would be a great idea
Honestly they were fine until Great Northern got their hands on them. After that refurbishment even the 387's were an improvement. There were no tables, no carpet, no plug sockets, no wifi, no air con and not even any armrests. They were better in WAGN days.
@@moose_ringo9161 I'm very confused. The table seats are still there (with table), and wifi has been fitted. The lack of carpet is a disappointment, I'll admit, but aircon is very difficult (if not impossible) to fit to older MUs.
@@bfapple They removed the tables from the table seats in the GN refurb IIRC. If I'm wrong then I'm sure you're right. However the tables that were there were only small wedge-shaped tables anyway and there were never any seatback tables. They also reduced the amount of 'bay of four' seats. They were fine, but worse than they used to be, and they weren't suited to that sort of work (Cambridge - Kings Cross express) since technology had moved on, not having plug sockets or air con was very unsatisfactory. Therefore I think it was best for them to get electrostars. The WAGN interior had a higher-quality feel (and very nice interior furnishings). I just think, apart from motor noise, they're overrated units and would be better suited to outer-suburban duties.
When they were up in Scotland doing Glasgow-Edinburgh/Edinburgh-Dunblane routes we loved them, was such a strange sensation seeing a London networker speeding up and down.
Just to mention: The West Ealing to Greenford branch line (since 2016 or 2017 has operated as a shuttle), still uses Networker Class 165 DMUs to this day. I won't be surprised if they continue to operate on that line until electrification of that line: I've heard of no plans for that as of yet. Living in West London, prior to the electrification of the Great Western Mainline from beyond Hayes and Harrington from 2016 onwards, the Class 165 have been a bit part of my travel into Central London and back to my neighbourhood again for most of my life. In my experience they have been fairly reliable.
Maybe they still look good elsewhere, but the GWR 165 and 166 units look and feel awful now. If I'm taking a train on the Wessex line, I'm always disappointed when a Networker shows up. The 158 Sprinter is much more comfortable.
@@-Benedict I recently rode on a GWR 158, their narrow profile means that when travelling with someone else and sitting next to one another, your shoulders and arms are shoved against one another and you have barely any leg room either. The GWR networkers are direly in need of some better maintenance and need improvements in the suspension and ride quality, hopefully the refurbishments they're slowly getting will fix this.
An informative report, thank you. The networker platform still is a great train, solid and reliable after years of service. The 365 variants (the few that are still running on the KX to Cambridge route) are both fast and comfortable if, perhaps, in need of an internal refurbishment.
Superb overview, I worked on one of the lines destined for Networker use I saw at close hand the frustration as the delivery date slipped from 1993 to "never" by the time operation of our line passed into private hands. Adtranz who by then ran BREL used successful elements of the Networker in their new Electrostar. In a way, the Electrostar project fulfilled the original plan by providing many commuter lines with brand new air conditioned trains and has only recently been replaced by current manufacturers Bombardier with the new Aventra platform. The original electric Networkers meanwhile have suffered due to Covid. The last 365s running only last week and the 465/466s also now being replaced. Many will remain in storage, now owned by the British government as a quick-fix solution should customer levels reach pre-Corona-Virus levels (highly unlikely given now most firms in London's financial district embracing a largely home-working future). The Electrostar was a fitting and ultimately successful replacement for Network South East's ambitious plan.
Some issues: Chiltern services did not serve Birmingham until after privatisation and these services use Cl168 "Clubman" units (predominantly). A note that these units (and the class 170/171 Turbostars) are a direct decedent of the Cl165/166 design would have been nice. Crediting the Desiro with fully replacing slam-door stock and not mentioning the more numerous Electrostar units seems strange, particularly since the Electrostar design is also somewhat based on the Networkers (they're unrelated to the Electric Networkers, but do use a bodyshell design derived from the Cl165). I'd hardly call the Networkers a "failure" since, while budgetary issues prevented NSE from fully realising their goals, Networker-derived units do now dominate the former NSE area (with the exception of the South-Western subsector that ordered Desiros instead) and can be found well beyond.
In 1995 (pre-privatisation but post-Networker), the Chiltern region was running an hourly service between Marylebone and Birmingham Snow Hill - along with an hourly stopping service to High Wycombe, an hourly service to Aylesbury via High Wycombe, and a half-hourly service to Aylesbury via Amersham. I believe it was when the Networkers were launched that the service to Birmingham was reinstated.
EPBs didn’t have wooden frames. The oldest units were pre-MK1 design (those with the top lights above the drop light windows and slightly more angled front cabs) being based on Bulleid suburban stock and had less strong bulkhead design than the MK1 units. Hence in an accident such as Cannon St the MK1 variants tended to override and crush the pre-Mk1 types.
I think the footage used at 1:55 was fron a BR training video about flagging an automatic signal or about the different types of couplings when the Class 455's were introduced in the South Central London commuter area
It's surprisingly exciting to recognise the branch-line station of your childhood in a (relatively niche) TH-cam video. 12:05 -- Sundridge Park in the London borough of Bromley. Thanks for making my evening! 😆 Keep up the good work!
thanks for the upload. I love these videos, they really are a joy to watch and the ones I click on fastest, so nice to jump into. a clear & perfectly paced voice, interesting facts and endless classic old footage ♥️ it's heaven
They are fantastic units for the most part. Although the 165 /1 units and 166 units are slow when it comes to acceleration. They’ve always been comfortable units at least to me anyway. I have grown up with them. I’m now in my twenties. They were some of the last units built by BR. The 365s designated for the SE division didn’t last long and some came in to service briefly under NSE before hastily being repainted in the similar Connex SouthEastern livery. The last 365s were built in 1995. The last Networker unit in the famous toothpaste livery of red white and blue was unit 465193 which only got repainted in 2007 ! I really enjoy these videos, keep making them !
Who ever designed these units were a genius , tbh, a little upgrade and theyll probably perform better than most new trains given their acceleration speed (tbh they are faster than alot of newer units, definitely faster than electrostars), for example 465 metro cammels are insane when they depart stations. , 365s are great too, idky their in storage when they could be used by another train operating company. Or even have contact shoes reinstalled and brought down south again on third rail . Every ones quick to have the most new train when they could just upgrade some of the already existing ones. It's a waste imo.
it’s not a waste as the operator doesn’t own the trains, the Government does. The privatised railway is a joke as HM Government still pays for the stock and the operators lease them for use. No Tory can explain how this provides better value for the public than running the whole railway themselves. Face it, Network Rail, state owned, Scotrail, state owned, Direct Rail Services, DRS, state owned, Transpennine, state owned, Northern, state owned as it Transport for Wales!
Travelled daily to London on the class 365s for years. Really good trains, fast and comfortable. A much more enjoyable ride than the new trains that have sadly replaced them.
Thank you for this excellent video. I remember my enthusiasm when the 165's were introduced on the Kennet Line replacing the old DMU's. The Thames Expresses were fast and a significant improvement on what went before.
Quite correct. Wooden bodies on express trains disappeared many years before Clapham. The snag was that BR EMUs were based on Mk1 bodies and in many cases had slam doors. This gave less structural rigidity that the Mk2 and Mk3 bodyshells. In addition slam doors were a nuisance at stations - just one door left open caused delays - although they allowed large numbers of passengers rapid egress at major termini.
@@iankemp1131 Even with the longer distance MK1 stock, which only had doors at the ends and centre, the strength was, of course, in the underframes, unlike later stock.
"slam door units" that slamming door sound always takes me back, nothing else sounds like the door of a passenger coach slamming shut. I specifically remember one time (before the iron curtain fell) when a train leaving the platform at Wolfsburg (West Germany) last stop before crossing back into East Germany (pulled by a "Ludmilla"; you probably heard the noise in the UK) having had their "papers" checked and the last door slammed making "that noise" (and was locked from the outside so no one could get away) and a woman who was still outside but apparently wanted to be inside started screaming her head off and a half-dozen border guards drew their submachine guns and started milling around smartly and I was suddenly remembering I needed to be in Cologne right away.
I was occasionally on security at York BREL and can remember the newly cast fibreglass cab fronts fresh from the moulds , I can remember doing shifts when the works was closing too, as a kid spotting at York I remember the bed pan line finished units lined up as the crews refused to work them ( over single manning I believe)
Fantastic video, very useful information indeed. Just had first contact with Networkers through paper adverts to ABB Ad Trans on my country's national rail timetable back cover or page 1. Is a very British front train design complemented by NSE 3 diagonal bands.
The GWR 165s are still in use on the Thames Valley branch lines which are off the GWML between Paddington and Reading, Maidenhead to Marlow, Slough to Windsor and Eton Central and Twyford to Henley on Thames, and also services from Reading to Basingstoke, Guildford, Redhill and Gatwick Airport
I'm old enough to remember their introduction into service on the Great Western suburban network from Paddington. They replaced the very reliable Class 117 units, which would be cascaded onwards to run on other routes.
Great video. I know they replaced some of my favourite stock, but I've grown up with the Networkers and I love travelling on them (in the days when I used to travel), personally, I can't really fault them... 99% of the time
I don't like how trains are getting more and more standardised. Some companies (like Southern and Greater Anglia) only have 2-3 types of train nowadays. This leads to some allocations that are completely unsuitable for their jobs, like the 387s on Gatwick Express. The idea of having different trains built specifically for their routes appeals to me, and it's just a better idea in general.
All trains interest me, but there was something about the Networkers that really fascinated me as a kid. Easily my favourite mainline EMU. Beautiful trains 😎
Just been watching your video. You got partly correct about ABB the first letter is the frim Asea witch was a Swedish firm that producd many modern iconic locos sutch as Rc 1 - Rc 7. Brown Boveri is a swiss company the both mergerd in the late 80ies to form the present company ABB. intresting video as always. ✨✨✨✨✨👍👍🇸🇪
There's a lengthy legacy from the Networkers, with the intended replacement of slam door stock in the south eastern and south central divisions- and indeed the LTS route- being achieved later using Electrostars, designs that have a clear lineage via Adtranz from the Networker program.
The class 442 unit 2401 is the worlds fastest 3rd rail train at 108 mph on.11th April 1988 I suppose that it will be scrapped just like fastest 4th rail the A Stock pioneer A60 5000-5001 86 mph 1960 outside Rickmansworth during safety brake testing for B R Great Central main line
The 325 Royal Mail units do, as you mention in your introduction, share most of their traction equipment with the (former) Thameslink Cl.319. However, they are also infinitely more flexible because, not only can they run on AC or DC electrified lines, they can also be loco hauled. Almost every build of Multiple Unit since the mid-80s makes use of the '3-Step WestCode Automatic Brake'. The WestCode brake replaces the familar Automatic Air Brake Pipe with wires, and is not compatible with any other automatic brake. However, the 325s do have a standard Automatic Air Brake, with a Brake Pipe. The brake system on the 325s is actually very similar to the system used on the HST (or Intercity 125).
13:12 Ah yeah that Thames turbo unit collided the hst after it went through on red where it should have stopped and let the hst go through before this unit goes through with a clear road ahead
Mark 1 stock had steel frames. The original proposal was for a monocoque but unfortunately it was built with heavy underframes and a relatively lightweight body, which was a bit on the flimsy side. The seats were very comfortable.
13:38-14:10 I remember the crash at Potter’s Bar Station as I was in London on holiday once, and the line where the crash happened had delayed a lot of trains that day, but it’s was very horrific and a horrible crash.
I remember it as I was living in Cambridge at the time and often travelled to London. The crash meant that all the Cambridge-London trains had to use the longer, slower route to Liverpool Street for quite a while.
@13:19. ' over-ran a red signal due to driver error'. The ladbroke Grove crash was not due to driver error and it has been proven since that the siting of signal SN109 was the problem.
When moved to Britain 13 years ago, thought Northern classe 323 were Networkers due to their quite similar exterior design and prity much the same interiors. By the other hand Class 325 Royal Mail have Networker's fronts but their body frame and technology is clearly Second Generation Mark 3 electric units such as class 319. Classes 332 and 333 highly suggest a modern version of Networker front as a legacy from its futuristic and aerodynamic front design compared to new units with more continental European design not exclusive from Old School BR. Thank you for sharing the video.
Extremely interesting and informative video, though you forgot one route for the 165s, the route between reading and redhill/Gatwick airport via Guildford
Pretty sure all the Mk1 derived vehicles were of all-steel construction (albeit separate chassis and body construction) and not wood as stated. But the rest of the video was quite informative and interesting. I have always found the Networker design to be quite pleasing. Certainly a lot more attractive than newer units such as the class 385s! The electric variants make some cool traction sounds as they pull away which lends them some character and they are standing the test of time very well for being 25-30 year old units!
7:43 is that the grove park depot? something about it tell me it is maybe its the track layout that is giveing me that if only the old image was more clear i wouldn't be asking if it was.
I've taken 365s between Cambridge and London multiple of times. To be honest, they are mostly alright, but their bodies aren't air-tight enough to pass through tunnels on the ECML at 100mph. Your ears will definitely feel them. 387s are quite better but not perfect, while 700s are absolutely amazing in this regard.
Oh Yes Michael Portillo famed for his outlandish attire but certainly loved his trains and it's thanks to him that The Settle and Carlisle line was saved among other achievements
All the class 365s have since been withdrawn and scrapped. It has been suggested that the next big fleet replacement in the south of England will be the class 465/466 units on Southeastern, maybe ordered within the next 10 years.
The EPBs were certainly not wooden bodied; they were all steel construction, as was the Mk1. Their awful safety performance was as a result of their interior layout, and the fact that the body sides were punctuated by doors at every seating bay. This caused them to effectively ‘concertina’ on impact, as was seen in the Cannon Street accident. Interestingly, not all EPBs were derived from the MK1 coach - those with the smaller window lights above the doors were actually slightly different in profile, and were designed by Oliver Bulleid. They also differed very slightly in their cab end design.
One other thing (others have mentioned the Mk1s not being timber framed), in an otherwise very interesting video. The class 165s no longer go to Bedwyn, that’s where the wires end. You should’ve picked the other line and said Basingstoke! The Reading West to Basingstoke line was rumoured to be being electrified at 25KV (along with Basingstoke to Millbrook for the Freightliner trains) but that was quietly cancelled due to the cost overruns on the Western electrification.
Interesting that reduced power demand was part of the specification - increased power draw tends to be a big issue with new trains - the 377s spent a lot of time in store because the 3rd rail network didn't have the power and now the tri-mode upcycled 319s coming to GWR are rumoured to be banned from DC running to Gatwick as there isn't the power for extra services...
@@bfapple I'd rather they plug the third rail gaps than upcycle an EMU so it ends up running where it used to run on DC on diesel... Of couyrse with all of the bodies involved in the industry, things like keeping the power draw down never seems to be considered. Sticking OHL up in the gaps in the 3rd rail is even less practical. They're spending millions on revamping Gatwick's station again, while the airlines leave...
The underframes of some EPB units were from the SR and had originally had old timber bodies mounted on them. These were replaced by SR-style all steel bodies in the 1950s.
I always thought these were diesel electric, along with all the sprinters, as they make electric versions of them, so assumed the 165/166 was essentially the same as a 465 with diesel generators onboard, but apparently they are diesel hydraulic
I'm not sure where to ask, but what happened to the Blue Pullman video? It was what introduced me to your channel, and it seems to be missing. I ask because it's still a really good video from what I remember, and the later installments like the Peaks, 323's, and now the Networkers remind me of that
Mark 1 stock was not timber framed. Some of the EPB stock was on Southern Railway underframes which were less strong. The weakness of the Mark 1 stock is that it has a strong underframe but relatively weak body built onto it. The long distance mark 1 classes were popular with commuters as they were very comfortable and had buffet cars. The Networkers are quite cramped compared to the stock they replaced. Despite the limitations, good design work by BREL, notably Trevor Scott and his team. For the long distance routes, an electric version of the class 158 would have done nicely.
The old trains from the 50s and 60s were brilliant! Slam doors were great! You could even get off before the train had physically stopped if you needed to make a quick connection! 😜
Aren't Southeastern about to replace the Networker trains on some of their routes, with the class 707 trains that they've bought from SWR (Southwestern Railway)?
SouthEastern are going to replace some of their more unreliable Networkers with Class 707s, we don’t know which networker sets are going though or which routes the 707s will be running on.
It wouldn't have been known at time of recording, but Southeastern have recently announced that they are getting class 700 units from SWT to replace the 465 and 466 units on the Metro routes to London; what their fate beyond storage is at this point, I don't know. I don't know if it's consistent across units built by one company over the other, but I never liked the gearbox noise on some 465s: the rapid whining and gear changing on said units as they set off always unnerved me somewhat. It wasn't on all units, and I never traveled on them enough to try and identify a rhyme or reason.
13:20, should not be driver error, it was an improper signal 3 down 1 across blinded by the low sun reflecting and making it impossible for the driver to see that the signal was red, as the signal that indicated proceed with caution was all that the driver could see. Therefore it was not driver error but bad signal placement on the gantry that caused the accident, and as TPWS was not fitted to that train at the time, the driver had no way of knowing he has SPADed. Other than that, a good film with plenty of nostalgia, especially the class 442 "Plastic Pig"
There's something about Industrial design of the Late-80s into the Early-90s that has always fascinated me, I'm surprised how well the looks have held up over the past 30 years.
The design and tech was well ahead of it's time. The technology used was like a whole different thing compared to their current units in the 90s . I prefer their design even till this day than some of the newer trains
Indeed, these units could still pass off as modern today and, although a little dated inside, are also comfortable, quiet and smooth. Better in fact than many of the much newer units, for instance class 380 and 385 which are horrid looking things, and the class 195 and 331 and 800/801 which are very uncomfortable.
BR got a lot of flak back in the day but, love them or loath them, they have produced some excellent and timeless designs over the years.
@@soundseeker63 WORDD ,(I know you werent replying to me but I had to comment) the networker model 465/365s etc are an astounding model of train along side the traction noise and acceleration speed (the newer trains are unbareably quiet in my opinion). It's almost like the only reason they were put into storage was simply because great northern got bored and wanted to try out the 700s and 387s not because theres anything actually wrong with them . Networkers were designed (given they are maintained properly) to not only look modern no matter the year, but functionally to last for decades. A bit of a rework on paint and maybe some updates and theyll literally look just as new as current trains like the 700s etc.
@@bb-3653 365's were not suited to the express duties they given to on Great Northern. That's why they chose to use 387's. They were actually appallingly badly suited to their workings, as they had no air con, no carpet, no plug sockets, tiny tables and iirc no WiFi. The 465's are perfectly suited to their suburban dutiesbut 365's didn't at all. Obviously they are more interesting than electrostars, but the railway is made for the passengers, not the enthusiasts.
@@moose_ringo9161 whilst its initially for travel, I personally dont find harm in making some room for a bit of catering to the enthusiasts lol, or some creative aspect. but that being said they could at least modify the inside or "refurbish" some of them for the duty. Or at the very least give them to another company. Like 319s ..which are older units . But your right, efficiency first ..however I do think it's also nice to have some fun with it....if they can of course
Love these videos, they must take ages to get all of the facts and figures together, ease consider doing one on the history and rolling stock of the Gatwick express
Thank you for not flooding these excellent presentations with annoying ads .
Everyone was so in love with neoliberal economics in the 1980s and 1990s here in the states and in the UK but as a economic model it certainly made things more complicated particularly in terms of standardization of materials, parts and equipment. I was surprised that prior to the privatization that there were preliminary efforts to break up the various rail services preparing the way. Thanks for the video. I learn so much.
The picture at 11:12 is mine, I took it from an old train magazine and uploaded it to another website. The magazine quotes it as a "class 481", 4xx-implying a Southern Reigon DC unit. There are no pictures of the class 342, although I think that whatever train they were going to make for Thameslink, was intended to be used on the CTRL, as part of BR's orginal CTRL plan was to run Thameslink trains onto the high-speed line to Ashford.
Could you perhaps do a video on Mail operations by rail in the UK? I’d love to see that!
Blimey, nerd alert
@@Robert-tl2vg So?
If you want there's a British transport film on night mail, available on BFI player.
@@Robert-tl2vg You've also found yourself watching a history on trains video, already seems pretty nerdy to me, I for one think the history of mail rail operations in the uk would be a great idea
@@375-Productions Absolutely, and well said. From "The Night Mail" to Class 325s, would be a great topic for a future upload!
I've ridden a 365 before from Cambridge to Kings Cross (Evening Direct Non-Stop) back in 2016. Splendid even for an early 90s train.
If you call 1995 early 90s ;)
Honestly they were fine until Great Northern got their hands on them. After that refurbishment even the 387's were an improvement. There were no tables, no carpet, no plug sockets, no wifi, no air con and not even any armrests. They were better in WAGN days.
@@moose_ringo9161 I'm very confused. The table seats are still there (with table), and wifi has been fitted. The lack of carpet is a disappointment, I'll admit, but aircon is very difficult (if not impossible) to fit to older MUs.
@@bfapple They removed the tables from the table seats in the GN refurb IIRC. If I'm wrong then I'm sure you're right. However the tables that were there were only small wedge-shaped tables anyway and there were never any seatback tables. They also reduced the amount of 'bay of four' seats. They were fine, but worse than they used to be, and they weren't suited to that sort of work (Cambridge - Kings Cross express) since technology had moved on, not having plug sockets or air con was very unsatisfactory. Therefore I think it was best for them to get electrostars. The WAGN interior had a higher-quality feel (and very nice interior furnishings). I just think, apart from motor noise, they're overrated units and would be better suited to outer-suburban duties.
@@bfapple the design is still early 90s though as the 365s are essentially AC versions of the 465/466.
Loved all the shots of the 365s at Cambridge, I used to get one there every weekday for school for over 10 years
There's something about the sound the 465's motors that brings me joy everytime I hear them
When they were up in Scotland doing Glasgow-Edinburgh/Edinburgh-Dunblane routes we loved them, was such a strange sensation seeing a London networker speeding up and down.
Oh yeah I forgot you got the happy trains up there
Please do a video on the turbostars/electrostars next
I advise it would be best to let the chap do what he wants.
@@bradleythomasburdentrainta366Rory does take video suggestions
@@maimadha Oh. nvm
Just to mention:
The West Ealing to Greenford branch line (since 2016 or 2017 has operated as a shuttle), still uses Networker Class 165 DMUs to this day.
I won't be surprised if they continue to operate on that line until electrification of that line: I've heard of no plans for that as of yet.
Living in West London, prior to the electrification of the Great Western Mainline from beyond Hayes and Harrington from 2016 onwards, the Class 165 have been a bit part of my travel into Central London and back to my neighbourhood again for most of my life. In my experience they have been fairly reliable.
Amazing how the networker trains still look modern and fresh even though they are nearly 30 years old!!
They have lasted well, and worn well, and with refurbishment
You could say that about the 390!
Maybe they still look good elsewhere, but the GWR 165 and 166 units look and feel awful now. If I'm taking a train on the Wessex line, I'm always disappointed when a Networker shows up. The 158 Sprinter is much more comfortable.
@@-Benedict I recently rode on a GWR 158, their narrow profile means that when travelling with someone else and sitting next to one another, your shoulders and arms are shoved against one another and you have barely any leg room either. The GWR networkers are direly in need of some better maintenance and need improvements in the suspension and ride quality, hopefully the refurbishments they're slowly getting will fix this.
An informative report, thank you. The networker platform still is a great train, solid and reliable after years of service. The 365 variants (the few that are still running on the KX to Cambridge route) are both fast and comfortable if, perhaps, in need of an internal refurbishment.
Superb overview, I worked on one of the lines destined for Networker use I saw at close hand the frustration as the delivery date slipped from 1993 to "never" by the time operation of our line passed into private hands. Adtranz who by then ran BREL used successful elements of the Networker in their new Electrostar. In a way, the Electrostar project fulfilled the original plan by providing many commuter lines with brand new air conditioned trains and has only recently been replaced by current manufacturers Bombardier with the new Aventra platform.
The original electric Networkers meanwhile have suffered due to Covid. The last 365s running only last week and the 465/466s also now being replaced. Many will remain in storage, now owned by the British government as a quick-fix solution should customer levels reach pre-Corona-Virus levels (highly unlikely given now most firms in London's financial district embracing a largely home-working future). The Electrostar was a fitting and ultimately successful replacement for Network South East's ambitious plan.
Some issues:
Chiltern services did not serve Birmingham until after privatisation and these services use Cl168 "Clubman" units (predominantly). A note that these units (and the class 170/171 Turbostars) are a direct decedent of the Cl165/166 design would have been nice.
Crediting the Desiro with fully replacing slam-door stock and not mentioning the more numerous Electrostar units seems strange, particularly since the Electrostar design is also somewhat based on the Networkers (they're unrelated to the Electric Networkers, but do use a bodyshell design derived from the Cl165).
I'd hardly call the Networkers a "failure" since, while budgetary issues prevented NSE from fully realising their goals, Networker-derived units do now dominate the former NSE area (with the exception of the South-Western subsector that ordered Desiros instead) and can be found well beyond.
In 1995 (pre-privatisation but post-Networker), the Chiltern region was running an hourly service between Marylebone and Birmingham Snow Hill - along with an hourly stopping service to High Wycombe, an hourly service to Aylesbury via High Wycombe, and a half-hourly service to Aylesbury via Amersham. I believe it was when the Networkers were launched that the service to Birmingham was reinstated.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the Electrostars were based of the class 471 as well?
EPBs didn’t have wooden frames. The oldest units were pre-MK1 design (those with the top lights above the drop light windows and slightly more angled front cabs) being based on Bulleid suburban stock and had less strong bulkhead design than the MK1 units. Hence in an accident such as Cannon St the MK1 variants tended to override and crush the pre-Mk1 types.
He's lied
I thoroughly enjoyed this informative video. Travelled on the 165/166 many a time and remembered when they first entered service
I grew up with the 365s. Unique motor whine that reminds me of day trips down to london. Years later they were my daily commute. I miss them!
I think the footage used at 1:55 was fron a BR training video about flagging an automatic signal or about the different types of couplings when the Class 455's were introduced in the South Central London commuter area
It's surprisingly exciting to recognise the branch-line station of your childhood in a (relatively niche) TH-cam video. 12:05 -- Sundridge Park in the London borough of Bromley. Thanks for making my evening! 😆 Keep up the good work!
thanks for the upload. I love these videos, they really are a joy to watch and the ones I click on fastest, so nice to jump into. a clear & perfectly paced voice, interesting facts and endless classic old footage ♥️ it's heaven
They are fantastic units for the most part. Although the 165 /1 units and 166 units are slow when it comes to acceleration. They’ve always been comfortable units at least to me anyway. I have grown up with them. I’m now in my twenties. They were some of the last units built by BR. The 365s designated for the SE division didn’t last long and some came in to service briefly under NSE before hastily being repainted in the similar Connex SouthEastern livery. The last 365s were built in 1995. The last Networker unit in the famous toothpaste livery of red white and blue was unit 465193 which only got repainted in 2007 ! I really enjoy these videos, keep making them !
Who ever designed these units were a genius , tbh, a little upgrade and theyll probably perform better than most new trains given their acceleration speed (tbh they are faster than alot of newer units, definitely faster than electrostars), for example 465 metro cammels are insane when they depart stations. , 365s are great too, idky their in storage when they could be used by another train operating company. Or even have contact shoes reinstalled and brought down south again on third rail . Every ones quick to have the most new train when they could just upgrade some of the already existing ones. It's a waste imo.
it’s not a waste as the operator doesn’t own the trains, the Government does. The privatised railway is a joke as HM Government still pays for the stock and the operators lease them for use.
No Tory can explain how this provides better value for the public than running the whole railway themselves.
Face it, Network Rail, state owned, Scotrail, state owned, Direct Rail Services, DRS, state owned, Transpennine, state owned, Northern, state owned as it Transport for Wales!
Travelled daily to London on the class 365s for years. Really good trains, fast and comfortable. A much more enjoyable ride than the new trains that have sadly replaced them.
A video on the history of Thameslink and its rolling stock would be amazing!
Thank you for this excellent video. I remember my enthusiasm when the 165's were introduced on the Kennet Line replacing the old DMU's. The Thames Expresses were fast and a significant improvement on what went before.
Neither the Mk1s nor the units derrived from them and involved at clapham, they were all steel construction.
Quite correct. Wooden bodies on express trains disappeared many years before Clapham. The snag was that BR EMUs were based on Mk1 bodies and in many cases had slam doors. This gave less structural rigidity that the Mk2 and Mk3 bodyshells. In addition slam doors were a nuisance at stations - just one door left open caused delays - although they allowed large numbers of passengers rapid egress at major termini.
@@iankemp1131 Even with the longer distance MK1 stock, which only had doors at the ends and centre, the strength was, of course, in the underframes, unlike later stock.
@@olly5764 Yup correct. Mk2s and Mk3s (and all subsequent designs) were monocoques rather than separate body and frame.
7:31- a little bit of the 'Wild Wood' video by by Paul Weller
@@N0mark0v Depends on your definition of express. Many Southern Region EMUs could do 90 mph.
"slam door units" that slamming door sound always takes me back, nothing else sounds like the door of a passenger coach slamming shut.
I specifically remember one time (before the iron curtain fell) when a train leaving the platform at Wolfsburg (West Germany) last stop before crossing back into East Germany (pulled by a "Ludmilla"; you probably heard the noise in the UK) having had their "papers" checked and the last door slammed making "that noise" (and was locked from the outside so no one could get away) and a woman who was still outside but apparently wanted to be inside started screaming her head off and a half-dozen border guards drew their submachine guns and started milling around smartly and I was suddenly remembering I needed to be in Cologne right away.
I was occasionally on security at York BREL and can remember the newly cast fibreglass cab fronts fresh from the moulds , I can remember doing shifts when the works was closing too, as a kid spotting at York I remember the bed pan line finished units lined up as the crews refused to work them ( over single manning I believe)
Fantastic video, very useful information indeed. Just had first contact with Networkers through paper adverts to ABB Ad Trans on my country's national rail timetable back cover or page 1. Is a very British front train design complemented by NSE 3 diagonal bands.
I worked on the production line of these units in York. I was a welder at the carriage works.
Was you Scottie boy
I remember catching quite a few of those around the Reading area when I lived there just a few years ago. Noisy little DMUs.
I didn't know the Eurostar was originally going to operate from Victoria? What made it change to Waterloo?
I'm looking forward to the Class 325 video, as I find those trains to be quite interesting.
The GWR 165s are still in use on the Thames Valley branch lines which are off the GWML between Paddington and Reading, Maidenhead to Marlow, Slough to Windsor and Eton Central and Twyford to Henley on Thames, and also services from Reading to Basingstoke, Guildford, Redhill and Gatwick Airport
I'm old enough to remember their introduction into service on the Great Western suburban network from Paddington. They replaced the very reliable Class 117 units, which would be cascaded onwards to run on other routes.
30 odd years and still in pristine/immaculate/perfect condition
Great video. I know they replaced some of my favourite stock, but I've grown up with the Networkers and I love travelling on them (in the days when I used to travel), personally, I can't really fault them... 99% of the time
I don't like how trains are getting more and more standardised. Some companies (like Southern and Greater Anglia) only have 2-3 types of train nowadays. This leads to some allocations that are completely unsuitable for their jobs, like the 387s on Gatwick Express. The idea of having different trains built specifically for their routes appeals to me, and it's just a better idea in general.
All trains interest me, but there was something about the Networkers that really fascinated me as a kid. Easily my favourite mainline EMU. Beautiful trains 😎
The same for Orpington!
Networkers may not be my favourites, but in my opinion, they are the most encouraging.
love this, the 465s are my home units and when they're gone, I'll be sad. Thank you for the great video!
11:05 I remember seeing that exact illustration in a book back in the early 90's . .. Can't remember which one though...
I have fond memories of those slam door units which were still in use around late 2003 time.
Just been watching your video.
You got partly correct about ABB the first letter is the frim Asea
witch was a Swedish firm that producd many modern iconic locos sutch as Rc 1 - Rc 7.
Brown Boveri is a swiss company the both mergerd in the late 80ies to form the present company ABB.
intresting video as always.
✨✨✨✨✨👍👍🇸🇪
There's a lengthy legacy from the Networkers, with the intended replacement of slam door stock in the south eastern and south central divisions- and indeed the LTS route- being achieved later using Electrostars, designs that have a clear lineage via Adtranz from the Networker program.
The class 442 unit 2401 is the worlds fastest 3rd rail train at 108 mph on.11th April 1988 I suppose that it will be scrapped just like fastest 4th rail the A Stock pioneer A60 5000-5001 86 mph 1960 outside Rickmansworth during safety brake testing for B R Great Central main line
I have a good video suggestion, Do the PEP's!, there are alot to talk about them.
Love the 365s, wish they had not been facelifted, a timeless look.
The 325 Royal Mail units do, as you mention in your introduction, share most of their traction equipment with the (former) Thameslink Cl.319. However, they are also infinitely more flexible because, not only can they run on AC or DC electrified lines, they can also be loco hauled.
Almost every build of Multiple Unit since the mid-80s makes use of the '3-Step WestCode Automatic Brake'. The WestCode brake replaces the familar Automatic Air Brake Pipe with wires, and is not compatible with any other automatic brake. However, the 325s do have a standard Automatic Air Brake, with a Brake Pipe. The brake system on the 325s is actually very similar to the system used on the HST (or Intercity 125).
13:12 Ah yeah that Thames turbo unit collided the hst after it went through on red where it should have stopped and let the hst go through before this unit goes through with a clear road ahead
Mark 1 stock had steel frames. The original proposal was for a monocoque but unfortunately it was built with heavy underframes and a relatively lightweight body, which was a bit on the flimsy side.
The seats were very comfortable.
13:38-14:10 I remember the crash at Potter’s Bar Station as I was in London on holiday once, and the line where the crash happened had delayed a lot of trains that day, but it’s was very horrific and a horrible crash.
I remember it as I was living in Cambridge at the time and often travelled to London. The crash meant that all the Cambridge-London trains had to use the longer, slower route to Liverpool Street for quite a while.
@13:19. ' over-ran a red signal due to driver error'. The ladbroke Grove crash was not due to driver error and it has been proven since that the siting of signal SN109 was the problem.
citing, not 'siting'.
@@droge192 No, It is 'siting' as it refers to the physical location of the signal.
When moved to Britain 13 years ago, thought Northern classe 323 were Networkers due to their quite similar exterior design and prity much the same interiors. By the other hand Class 325 Royal Mail have Networker's fronts but their body frame and technology is clearly Second Generation Mark 3 electric units such as class 319. Classes 332 and 333 highly suggest a modern version of Networker front as a legacy from its futuristic and aerodynamic front design compared to new units with more continental European design not exclusive from Old School BR. Thank you for sharing the video.
I feel the 90's era was an interesting time for uk train design. 90's uk train designs still look modern to me whilst the 80's looks dated.
I love your videos and I wish you do a Class 20 type 1 Locomotives history
Extremely interesting and informative video, though you forgot one route for the 165s, the route between reading and redhill/Gatwick airport via Guildford
Also 165s run on the Reading to Basingstoke route
Pretty sure all the Mk1 derived vehicles were of all-steel construction (albeit separate chassis and body construction) and not wood as stated. But the rest of the video was quite informative and interesting. I have always found the Networker design to be quite pleasing. Certainly a lot more attractive than newer units such as the class 385s! The electric variants make some cool traction sounds as they pull away which lends them some character and they are standing the test of time very well for being 25-30 year old units!
7:43 is that the grove park depot? something about it tell me it is maybe its the track layout that is giveing me that if only the old image was more clear i wouldn't be asking if it was.
Yup it is.
Great video. ☺️ I just subscribed to ur TH-cam channel. ☺️ I love the Class 465's the Class 466's and the Class 365's. ☺️
You have great audio and Voicework for documentaries
10:30 so this is why crossrail is so late
Very forward thinking design on the Class 341 having a toilet roll at the front. Would have come in very handy during the pandemic. :)
Love the videos, keep them up mate!
I've taken 365s between Cambridge and London multiple of times. To be honest, they are mostly alright, but their bodies aren't air-tight enough to pass through tunnels on the ECML at 100mph. Your ears will definitely feel them. 387s are quite better but not perfect, while 700s are absolutely amazing in this regard.
Oh Yes Michael Portillo famed for his outlandish attire but certainly loved his trains and it's thanks to him that The Settle and Carlisle line was saved among other achievements
All the class 365s have since been withdrawn and scrapped. It has been suggested that the next big fleet replacement in the south of England will be the class 465/466 units on Southeastern, maybe ordered within the next 10 years.
The Network Southeast Livery is the best livery ever fitted to a train ever, even beating out Intercity Swallow and Amtrak Phase 3
Film at 5.30 comes from a Railscene video produced by Jeremy English and marketed by Channel A.V.
Its crazy that so many 365s are now unused!
Film at 1.55 was made by SPA Films for the British Raiways Network SouthEast sector.
Coupling of 1951 stock.
Thank you, very interesting and well presented.
The EPBs were certainly not wooden bodied; they were all steel construction, as was the Mk1. Their awful safety performance was as a result of their interior layout, and the fact that the body sides were punctuated by doors at every seating bay. This caused them to effectively ‘concertina’ on impact, as was seen in the Cannon Street accident. Interestingly, not all EPBs were derived from the MK1 coach - those with the smaller window lights above the doors were actually slightly different in profile, and were designed by Oliver Bulleid. They also differed very slightly in their cab end design.
One other thing (others have mentioned the Mk1s not being timber framed), in an otherwise very interesting video. The class 165s no longer go to Bedwyn, that’s where the wires end. You should’ve picked the other line and said Basingstoke! The Reading West to Basingstoke line was rumoured to be being electrified at 25KV (along with Basingstoke to Millbrook for the Freightliner trains) but that was quietly cancelled due to the cost overruns on the Western electrification.
The Reading to Basingstoke electrification wasn't cancelled I thought but delayed until 2022.
Nothing better than going at 90mph on a three carriage 165 from Reading to Paddington in the summer. Great fun,
Brilliant, Thank You, Best channel on TH-cam.
11:11 That was supposed to be the top speed of the InterCity 225 (Class 91)
I was wondering if the 325 would get a mention, but there it is!
Interesting that reduced power demand was part of the specification - increased power draw tends to be a big issue with new trains - the 377s spent a lot of time in store because the 3rd rail network didn't have the power and now the tri-mode upcycled 319s coming to GWR are rumoured to be banned from DC running to Gatwick as there isn't the power for extra services...
And yet there are people who still want brand new third rail electrification!
@@bfapple I'd rather they plug the third rail gaps than upcycle an EMU so it ends up running where it used to run on DC on diesel... Of couyrse with all of the bodies involved in the industry, things like keeping the power draw down never seems to be considered. Sticking OHL up in the gaps in the 3rd rail is even less practical. They're spending millions on revamping Gatwick's station again, while the airlines leave...
2:00 i swear some of the SUB stock had reused underframes from pre-ww2, hence wooden. Mk1s had metal underframes.
Some of the EPB's reused underframes too. If you looked at the axleboxes some had B.R. cast on them, some S.R. and a few even sported LB&SCR...
The underframes of some EPB units were from the SR and had originally had old timber bodies mounted on them. These were replaced by SR-style all steel bodies in the 1950s.
I really liked the look of the networkers even though I haven’t been able to go on one 😅
Nice video! Really enjoyed it!
An error about ABB, the ASEA part (A) is Swedish. Brown Boveri (BB) is Swiss.
Can you do a video on the sprinters? Classes 150-156
I always thought these were diesel electric, along with all the sprinters, as they make electric versions of them, so assumed the 165/166 was essentially the same as a 465 with diesel generators onboard, but apparently they are diesel hydraulic
Could you do one about MotorRail? There was a depot in Crewe.
I'm not sure where to ask, but what happened to the Blue Pullman video? It was what introduced me to your channel, and it seems to be missing. I ask because it's still a really good video from what I remember, and the later installments like the Peaks, 323's, and now the Networkers remind me of that
another great video once again, however i must point out that ABB was not just Swiss, but Swedish too.
Mark 1 stock was not timber framed. Some of the EPB stock was on Southern Railway underframes which were less strong. The weakness of the Mark 1 stock is that it has a strong underframe but relatively weak body built onto it. The long distance mark 1 classes were popular with commuters as they were very comfortable and had buffet cars. The Networkers are quite cramped compared to the stock they replaced.
Despite the limitations, good design work by BREL, notably Trevor Scott and his team.
For the long distance routes, an electric version of the class 158 would have done nicely.
The old trains from the 50s and 60s were brilliant! Slam doors were great! You could even get off before the train had physically stopped if you needed to make a quick connection! 😜
You just had to make sure you didn’t get off too premature, other wise you would face plant the platform lol
@@Madmark50484 Everything requires some skill!
Class 166 is still running today
could you do a video on the renfe aves or the class 43
14:37 The air-con fitted cabs look like Budgie the Little Helicopter.
Please can you do a video like this about the peps (class 313, 314,315,507 and 508s)
I'd be interested in videos on the turbostars, electrostars, desiros and 442s
Aren't Southeastern about to replace the Networker trains on some of their routes, with the class 707 trains that they've bought from SWR (Southwestern Railway)?
SouthEastern are going to replace some of their more unreliable Networkers with Class 707s, we don’t know which networker sets are going though or which routes the 707s will be running on.
@@lordparma7556 I’m a bit late but I think the 465/0 and 465/1 if any as they have worse acceleration IIRC
great show again
It wouldn't have been known at time of recording, but Southeastern have recently announced that they are getting class 700 units from SWT to replace the 465 and 466 units on the Metro routes to London; what their fate beyond storage is at this point, I don't know.
I don't know if it's consistent across units built by one company over the other, but I never liked the gearbox noise on some 465s: the rapid whining and gear changing on said units as they set off always unnerved me somewhat. It wasn't on all units, and I never traveled on them enough to try and identify a rhyme or reason.
Nice video mate - next time though, if you have to mention the Clapham crash...... try not to use Purley or Cannon Street crash footage eh ;-)
13:20, should not be driver error, it was an improper signal 3 down 1 across blinded by the low sun reflecting and making it impossible for the driver to see that the signal was red, as the signal that indicated proceed with caution was all that the driver could see.
Therefore it was not driver error but bad signal placement on the gantry that caused the accident, and as TPWS was not fitted to that train at the time, the driver had no way of knowing he has SPADed.
Other than that, a good film with plenty of nostalgia, especially the class 442 "Plastic Pig"
What about the train that ran into the buffers at Slough in November 1994? Was that one repaired? It looked rather second-hand after the accident.