After 45 years of hunting in Canada my 243s have taken 38 deer, 16 black bear, 12 moose, 6 elk. We don't have ARs up here so 6Arc is not really practical for us. We could buy bolt actions but why bother. In an AR platform I absolutely get it. It's a helluva round. My moose hunting friends used to rib that I was under gunned. They shut up after I hit quarters at 300yds and dropped an 800lb bull that trip. The thing people don't understand is expansion and bullet weight retention. In hunting that is what matters. The 243 beats everything for that in my hunting experience. Partition bullets in 243 expand like 7mm. I've pulled bullets from animals that shocked people. Btw every bullet in elk and moose went into hearts and lungs. I never shot beyond 250yds.In a super short action like Howa or CZ527 6Arc could be a perfect hunting rifle. I'd like to see the expansion of 6ARC that is everything in regards to hunting
Several years ago when the Ruger precision first came out I had the choice between 308-65 creedmoor and 243 Winchester I went with the 243 and never looked back
Interesting discussion. I'm doing 6ARC in a gas gun, setting it up for 90ish grain bullets for prairie dogs, yotes and long range target. Velocities drop dramatically with heavier bullets with the ARC.
I hand load and like the 6 ARC. I have 2 in the AR platform. a 22" barrel and a 12" barrel, but I still love my 243s. I have the Tikka T3X lite with the 1 in 8 twist and it shoots those ELDs lights out. I have a REM 700 with a magpul stock that takes 10 round 308 mags, and with a 1 in 10 barrel and it shoots anything..
6mm ARC is the only thing you can shoot out of a standard AR 15 platform with a sub-20” barrel and be carrying enough speed and energy at 300 yards to be ethically using it for mule deer at that range, based on my personal comfort levels. To me that’s a pretty neat feat of engineering. I don’t get too excited about the 6 ARC in a bolt gun, but I can’t help but feel like it’s the round that the ar-15 deserved from the beginning.
Great point about fitting in the AR platform. The great feat of engineering is just barely shortening a 6mm PPC and moving the shoulder forward slightly. The 6mm AR and 6mm Grendel has been around for years. Hornady did not do any feat of engineering they just renamed what other people had already done. The bolts have traditionally been week because of the amount of material removed for the 7.62 x 39mmn/ 6mm PPC/ 6.5grendell bolt face originally designed for 223/ 5.56.
I think the 6.5 grendel could do that. To me, shot placement is much more important than energy (though I understand energy DOES matter - as does bullet selection). I just think there is still enough energy to get double lung at 300 yards with a 12-16" barrel 6.5 grendel.
@@davidmilisock5200 6mm AR/ 6mm Grendel/ 6mm ppc have been around for 45 years just on a custom built basis. The 6mm hornady is the same thing renamed to make you think it is something new.
Another Option would be to just throat the lead on an old 243 bolt gun to shoot 108s and 110s etc. I've never owned a 243 though. I never like ARs until I found 6ARC. Its pretty legit, and there are going to be advantages of being on this bandwagon. I won't waste small rifle primers on any other round (currently). Other options would be 6BR or 6CM, I think one of those can go into an AR but its all way more proprietary stuff than the 6ARC.
Hornady has done no service to shooters of the 6mm ARC. My brass has been on backorder for 1 1/2 years now. I have almost 600 rounds of factory ammo to shoot for now. With tons of 6mm bullets, plenty of powders, and lots of primers, I'm ticked that brass is the only missing piece. I've read too many stories of unsuccessful attempts to convert 6.5G brass to 6 ARC brass, mainly in gas guns... but I've not tried it yet so can't speak from experience. I really think this is a great cartridge that came out at a bad time. With that said, I do love the .243 Win and have no plans to stop loading and shooting it.
I asked Lyman's customer service. Their response: "Each load listed in the 51st Edition Reloading Handbook for the 6mm ARC has one load for gas operated guns, and one for bolt action rifles only. "
Great video, I have a Howa mini in 6.5 Grendel, it is awesome 90 grain Spears at 2900 fps with H4198 sub MOA Hits them steal plates at 300 meters like a freight train. Cant wait for the Howa mini in 6 Arc. Here in Australia will be in 2023 . I think the Arc bolt gun could replace the 223 & 243. Id love one in a Gas gun but where not allowed gas guns in Aus.
I’m invested in both the 243 and the ARC. IF I didn’t have barrels in 243 I would switch to the ARC yesterday. Simply put- efficiency. Less brass and powder. Less recoil and more barrel life. So my debate isn’t 243 vs ARC, it’s ARC vs 6 BR. BR is established, easy to load for accuracy and standard bolt face vs $450 for an ARC bolt. On the other hand I have two 6 ARC uppers and having one caliber instead of two is efficient also. 🤔🤔. First world problems. 🤷🏼♂️😜
I have a Savage Axis in .243 Winchester. I put a Boyd's stock on it and it is a tack driver. I think I will stick with it over the ARC, and if that makes me a Fudd, then so be it. Lol.
Yes it would! The Steyr Pro Hunter is the only factory rifle I’m aware of that has a fast twist rate for the .270 Win…it’s a 1:8.5” twist rate. Stabilizes up to 180gr bullets!
Agreed. But I wonder if the elk and deer I've harvested over the years have any complaints about the less than optimal ballistics of the 270 I used. ;-)
Hey neighbor, not too far from you down in the Chattahoochee Valley area. I've built 2 6ARC AR's over the past 5 months, an 18" and 22".Have about 1k rounds dowen each and they both are stellar performers to me, averaging 1/2moa on the 18" and 1/.3moa on the 22" all the way to 1000yds if I do my part. I shoot gas gun matches with them and also some hunting. I love the round so much, I'm rebuilding a SS Model 7 in it over the next couple months(currently in 300SAUM). To me, it's simply a do-it-all round.
Remington .243 barrels have been 1:9 twist since the beginning. Lots of 1:8 twist barrels in factory guns out there too. Your whole argument centers around being bound by a 1:10 twist barrel in .243, which is not the real-world case. 6mm ARC is more efficient, yes indeed and that's the attraction. 90% of .243 performance with 75% of the powder. Less bang and longer (expected) barrel life too, due to burning less powder.
🤣 If all of the data used for your decision is coming from 1 Hornady reloading manual, well.............rock on brother. Lol. You should double check your specs on the Axis also, because the 2 that I have are a 1 in 9.25 twist. Not 1 in 10
I have the savage axis 243 and shoot 103gr and 105gr with quarter inch moa. The chronograph says there cooking at around 3000fps. I have dropped deer out to 500+ and 1 elk cow at 535 yards. Very pleased with the 243 performance.
Well if you collaborate other Reloading Data the comparison is not as close as hornaday would have you believe. I've been shooting 243 for the last four decades and the 6 mm ARC is just a slightly modified version of the 6 mm ppc. A 6 mm 1 and 10 twist means you should stick with a 90 grain or lighter bullet. And what you say about Factory 243 barrels is correct. They do not stabilize anyting well over 90 . 100 grain 243 is not well stabilized with a 1 in 10 twist. I have bought custom barrels with a 1 and 8 twist and they work with 105 grain 243. You are kidding yourself if you think a 6 mm Arc is on par or close with a 243 Winchester for velocity. Hornady did the same thing with the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 260 Remington and they're reloading manuals. They fudge the numbers to make their miraculous new cartridge look better than it really is. It's called marketing with fake news. I have chronograph 243 loads and you are not going to equal or get close to 243 velocity with a 6 mm Arc without blowing out primers
Hmmmm SAMI spec has the ARC at 62,000 psi for use in bolt guns and only 60,000 psi for the 243 Win. Out of my 24 inch barrels I have less the 50 fps between the two rounds with a 100-103gr bullets with 10 grs less powder in the ARC. Case efficiency is a real quantifiable thing, especially when heavy for caliber bullets are involved. For some reason people don't think improvements can be made in cartridges because they can't understand why
@@BcFuTw9jt all smaller cases burn less powder that's not a mystery that I understand. And you have to burn faster burning powders in the small cases because of limited case volume that is something I understand. Whenever you are burning faster burning powder in a smaller case to achieve the same velocity with the same bullet it takes a lot more pressure that is something I understand. Maybe someday you will understand that.
@@BcFuTw9jt plus you can load 243 to the same pressure as a 6 mm Arc if you work your loads up and you have the proper firearm and when you do that there's no way in hell a 6 mm Arc achieves the same velocity or within 50 ft of the same velocity of a 243
IMHO, 243 has been and is a super great hunting cartridge. To me, this debate is sort of moot, as 243 Winchester vs. Hornady 6mm ARC is an apples-oranges comparison. 243Win=Hunting cartridge 6mmARC=Target shooting I'm not a hunter anymore, but am enjoying target shooting in my semi retirement. So I got me an AR-15 with a 22" 6mm ARC upper, with a Vortex Venom 5-25x56 scope. It's a kick ass target rifle, shoots little tiny groups at 100 yards, and I can ring steel with it all the way to 800 yards...so far. If I was gonna go hunting again, I wouldn't take my AR. I would go get myself a light weight bolt gun, probably in .308 or .270, with a 4x scope on it, and go slay me some deer at 75-100 yards.... maximum... but more realistically at 100-150 feet..LOL..
Barrel life is way better than 243 also. I'm tossing around the idea of building a 6 ARC bolt gun. Getting away from the AR mag would be a huge benefit for this cartridge and I wouldn't consider doing a bolt gun unless it uses a different mag that would allow longer COAL.
Also increases the pressure you can run in a bolt gun over a gass gun. I have about 50 fps between the ARC and the 243 with 100-103 gr bullets out of a 24 inch barrel
I've wondered whether the mini-actions (e.g. CZ 527 and Howa Mini) can be loaded to the "bolt gun" levels. We know that traditional short actions can handle it, but as far as I know the Howa Mini and CZ 527 (now discontinued) have smaller lugs on the bolt and smaller diameter receivers when compared to their big brothers (e.g. Howa 1500). Maybe I'm being overly conservative, especially considering that the Hornady load book suggested they used a CZ527, but assuming that the mini-actions can handle the same bolt thrust as a short action has always nagged at me. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
The Howa Mini is a lot smaller action than 1500 alright , It has just came out in the states in 6 Arc.I have been loading the the Howa Mini in 6.5 Grendel for 1 year, I have put 900 rounds through it. All different bullet weights & have put some pretty hot loads through it with no problems , I keep a eye on the bolt face for pitting but its still perfect, have settled on a load of h4198 which is max load in my reloading book of 2900 fps sub MOA.
Savage is doing the 110 and Axis II with the ARC now. I've only used the 110 with a 24 inch barrel and have had no issues with the max bolt gun loads so far
So you mention chamber pressure, the bolt gun loads for the 6 arc are 60k-63k most load data for the 243 win keeps pressures to around 54k. Pressure to pressure the 243 will walk away but also as you said it has the wrong twist. The arc falls somewhere between the 6ppc and 6 dasher in design and performance. I'm a huge 243 win/a.i. fan that being said I'm building a flyweight 6 arc with a 18" barrel.
Both Rem and Savage 1/9 twist. I have both and they shoot 105 and 107's out of factory barrels. I get 3015 out of 22 inch barrel .5gr below max and no pressure signs. So if I were to get another gun I'd just spend it on prefit 1/8 and be happier. And the 6mm Rem will outrun both. Unless you are a high volume shooter most of what is stated is pointless. Tired of band-wagon jumpers.
It isn't that close it is called marketing by Hornady. By fudging numbers in their reloading book. They did the same thing with the 6-5 Creedmoor and the 260 Remington fudge the numbers to make the 65 Creedmoor look good.
@@Mike-xi4zt No you just don't have the means or ability to test it your self. I get the two of them within 50fps out of 24 inches barrels in a bolt gun with 100-103gr bullets every day
It is like buying the latest motor vehicle. It is definitely more effiecient and faster then the older model. Thing is, it is a tool. Learn to use the correct tool properly. I am very suprised that the average joe can't see the marketing hype behind all these latest cartridge developments. But it is fun reading and listening to all of this!🤣🙈
Well both of my remington varmint rifles in 243 are 1 /9/14 twist my 6mm is a 1/9 twist the 243 shoots 107gr sierra better then I can make it shoot another thing you have to look at 243 ammo is just about every where around the world 6 arc has one company loading for it hornady. It has its place but doesn't replace anything. Remember 6 br 6 br. Norma 6ppc 6xc 6 dasher the all have there uses. 243 will never die off the latest an greatest isn't always the best
I've tried shooting 105 grain boat tail hollow points out of 1 in 9 twist and had them tumble before they went 20 yards. I really doubt your claim based on my experience. Remington factory twist rate does not stabilize much of anything over 90 grain especially boat tail style bullets. Some flat base might semi stabilize.
@@Mike-xi4zt you must think I'm a fucken idiot how did you see the said bullet tumble at 20 yds. From said rifle explain please. A 9 twist will stabilize a 105 gr an a 107 gr so I call b.s on your end
Unless your game is shooting long range non-living targets, I don’t see the great advantage to choosing the 6mm ARC over the .243 Winchester. The longer, high B.C. bullets afforded by the 6mm ARC do not add appreciable value when compared to 95-100 grain projectiles currently used to take medium sized game within the ranges suited to cartridge class and bore diameter of the .243 Win/6mm ARC. If you’re a hunter, 300-350 yards should be about the extent you should attempt to take deer at, given the small bullet diameter and the lack of energy at those ranges. The 100 grain .243 bullet has a sectional density of .242, which is quite adequate for a deer bullet.
To me it's the same as comparing a 300 win mag to a 300 short mag. I can get slightly less performance in a package that's shorter and lighter. I can buy a 6mm ARC that's 4 lbs 10 oz with a 22" barrel (Howa mini). I also like to shoot mono bullets, the Barnes LRX needs a 1:8 twist even though it's only 95 grains, so the ARC seems like a good choice (2200 FPS and 1000 ft-lbs at 350 yards).
I have a Ruger no.1 in 243 Winchester with a 1in 7.75" twist that shoots 107 grain SMK into under half an inch for 5 shots at 100 yards. You are not stuck with a 1 in 10 twist.
I knew the comment section would be filled with butt-hurt .243 win owners. 🤣 For me its all about efficiency. When you can get almost the same performance with 2/3-3/4 the powder, for me its a pretty easy decision. Same reason I went with the .308 win vs the 30-06. Your deer, coyote, prairie dog or paper target at 1000 yards is not going to notice 100fps difference. And actually at a thousand yard, you can get more energy with the ARC over the .243 win, because you can actually shoot high B.C bullets out of the ARC. Yeah you can shoot 110 grain bullets out of the .243 win, but without a custom barrel, you'll get to see what the silhouette of you bullet will look like downrange. 🤣 Just my 2 cents.
Also I think the faster twist rate are good for copper solids which would be an extreme advantage of a LR bolt gun where you don't have to load to mag length.
agreed. I wanted to run the 100gr patriot valley arms seneca's, but josh over there said i'd need about another 0.2-0.25" over mag length to load those properly since they have a long OAL
You argument is ridiculous. Your not comparing a cartridge. You are comparing available twist rates available from one manufacturer. The ARC is designed for a gas gun and the lack of material left in the bolt with big case head limits it on pressure. You compare factory 243 to higher pressure ARC handloads that are not available as factory.
Not a fan of the 243, I own one, my wife won it at a Turkey Federation Banquet, it’s only seen factory ammo, I was is the process of working up loads when I had my stroke. To me the 243 and the 410 shotgun falls into the same type shooter and it’s not a beginner. To me the 243 and 410 falls into the of very experienced shooter, both have the ability to kill, in the right hands, both have the ability to do a lot or wounding in the wrong hands! The only plus the 6 ark has over the 243 is rifle platform, I love the AR (556) platform. 10 grains in bullet weight is splitting hairs, it’s not enough of a difference to be a game changer! But! The 243 has the time advantage, components and rifles are everywhere,
Dumping the 243 makes sense for a 24 caliber shooter. As a 24 caliber shooter for over 35 years let me explain. I own a 6MM ARC in an AR15 platform and it fixes the M1 Carbine, M4 problem. Meaning that functional in close work as well as longer range capability in wind is greatly improved. Medium game is a possibility at limited ranges, a one rifle solution for a family man, hunting wnd defense. This is done in a 16" barrel with a single weight projectile, the 6MM ARC is perfect at 52,000 PSI in an self loading platform. If you want a 24 caliber bolt gun for field work from the perspective of using it for varmints and medium game the 6MM Remington is a far better choice. The 6MM ARC and the 243 are not lousy choices however outside the parameters of 6MM ARC auto loader in terms of light weight and heavyweight projectiles there's not enough difference between the 243 and the 6MM ARC to justify the 243 in a bolt rifle. With that said for the handloader, the 6MM Remington offers a 65,000 PSI case, added capacity which for me yields 3,900 FPS with 75 grain Hornady and 3,300 FPS with 107 Sierra. The 243 has had its day but the 6MM ARC is the now and future for either platform and for the bolt gun only croud the 6MM Remington takes the 6MM cartridge to (I hate this term) magnum levels for working bolt rifles
The 6mm Remington is great choice for sure…Remington really dropped the ball when they introduced it by going with a slower twist rate…that really handicapped the potential in the beginning.
@@alabamareloader Remington has long been know for unusual choices. With the modern efficient cartridges available I think we'll see other older cartridges take a back seat in the future. The ARC certainly makes the 243 a poor choice in any platform. If you have to push the 243 hard why not get real high end performance with the 6mm Remington?
Your arguments are well thought out, and certainly are correct from a performance point of view. However, I think you overstate your case by saying that the the .243 Winchester is a poor choice in any platform when compared to the 6mm ARC or 6mm Remington. I’m a handloader and a hunter, and I feel the need to remind you not to neglect the practicality aspect of the .243 Winchester. Factory loaded ammunition, dies, and reloading components such as new and used brass are common and plentiful, whereas the same cannot be said for either the 6mm Remington or the ARC. For the deer/coyote hunter, I don’t see either cartridge unseating the .243 any time soon, certainly not the 6mm Remington. Again I’m not arguing against the ballistic superiority of either cartridge, but practicality rules the day when I can only expect marginal performance gains from another cartridge (for my application which is deer hunting). For my hunting needs, I’ll stick with my .270 and .243.
You mentioned 3300 fps with 107 gr Sierra 6mm rem. You will need a custom barrel with a 1 in 8 twist to keep them from wobbling or tumbling. I do not think any factory 6mm rem barrels were made for anything high BC. 243 is basically equal in or sometimes better performance with some of the newer powders. 6mm load data is lagging in updates for newer powder. 243 can be made from 308, 7mm08, 260rem, 6mm rem is based off of 7mm mauser and cannot be made from 308 series cases. 6mm rem or 243 win will easily outperform a 6mm arc/ppc irregardless of what Hornady manual numbers are.
I have tried 105 grain bthp berger on deer and will no longer use them. They break up way to easily. All copper, bonded core, or partition are what you should use for deer. High bc bthp is good for shooting targets and varmints not deer.
Stop falling for the hype if you need an excuse to buy another rifle just do it. Average shooters would never know the difference but if you're in a big boy game the 243 with the correct twist and throat will beat the Arc hand's down
After 45 years of hunting in Canada my 243s have taken 38 deer, 16 black bear, 12 moose, 6 elk. We don't have ARs up here so 6Arc is not really practical for us. We could buy bolt actions but why bother. In an AR platform I absolutely get it. It's a helluva round. My moose hunting friends used to rib that I was under gunned. They shut up after I hit quarters at 300yds and dropped an 800lb bull that trip. The thing people don't understand is expansion and bullet weight retention. In hunting that is what matters. The 243 beats everything for that in my hunting experience. Partition bullets in 243 expand like 7mm. I've pulled bullets from animals that shocked people. Btw every bullet in elk and moose went into hearts and lungs. I never shot beyond 250yds.In a super short action like Howa or CZ527 6Arc could be a perfect hunting rifle. I'd like to see the expansion of 6ARC that is everything in regards to hunting
Several years ago when the Ruger precision first came out I had the choice between 308-65 creedmoor and 243 Winchester I went with the 243 and never looked back
The Tikka T3X in 243 is now a 1 in 8 twist - you get much better velocity, range etc - think 103 ELDx
I have a 6mm ARC and love having .243 like performance in a light AR-15 rifle.
Same reason I have a 6 ARC upper for my AR.
I also let my wife use it for deer season.
Interesting discussion. I'm doing 6ARC in a gas gun, setting it up for 90ish grain bullets for prairie dogs, yotes and long range target. Velocities drop dramatically with heavier bullets with the ARC.
I hand load and like the 6 ARC. I have 2 in the AR platform. a 22" barrel and a 12" barrel, but I still love my 243s. I have the Tikka T3X lite with the 1 in 8 twist and it shoots those ELDs lights out. I have a REM 700 with a magpul stock that takes 10 round 308 mags, and with a 1 in 10 barrel and it shoots anything..
How is it shooting the 243 in the your tikka lite in terms of shootability and being able to spot your shots through the scope?
6mm ARC is the only thing you can shoot out of a standard AR 15 platform with a sub-20” barrel and be carrying enough speed and energy at 300 yards to be ethically using it for mule deer at that range, based on my personal comfort levels.
To me that’s a pretty neat feat of engineering. I don’t get too excited about the 6 ARC in a bolt gun, but I can’t help but feel like it’s the round that the ar-15 deserved from the beginning.
I agree, I've waited 45 years for this type of cartridge.
Great point about fitting in the AR platform. The great feat of engineering is just barely shortening a 6mm PPC and moving the shoulder forward slightly. The 6mm AR and 6mm Grendel has been around for years. Hornady did not do any feat of engineering they just renamed what other people had already done. The bolts have traditionally been week because of the amount of material removed for the 7.62 x 39mmn/ 6mm PPC/ 6.5grendell bolt face originally designed for 223/ 5.56.
I think the 6.5 grendel could do that. To me, shot placement is much more important than energy (though I understand energy DOES matter - as does bullet selection). I just think there is still enough energy to get double lung at 300 yards with a 12-16" barrel 6.5 grendel.
@@davidmilisock5200 6mm AR/ 6mm Grendel/ 6mm ppc have been around for 45 years just on a custom built basis. The 6mm hornady is the same thing renamed to make you think it is something new.
@@Mike-xi4zt However never adopted by the military or manufactured in mass.
Shaw barrel makes a screw barrel for 243 Winchester with a 1-7 twist rate for around 300.00, no gun smithing, just plug and play.
Yea $300 isn't that bad. But how many shots can u get out of that plug in 1-7 twist barrel?
Another Option would be to just throat the lead on an old 243 bolt gun to shoot 108s and 110s etc. I've never owned a 243 though.
I never like ARs until I found 6ARC. Its pretty legit, and there are going to be advantages of being on this bandwagon. I won't waste small rifle primers on any other round (currently). Other options would be 6BR or 6CM, I think one of those can go into an AR but its all way more proprietary stuff than the 6ARC.
Hey N. Alabama neighbor! I concur. I have a 6mm ARC bolt upper for my DDM4v7 from Uintah Precision.
Hornady has done no service to shooters of the 6mm ARC. My brass has been on backorder for 1 1/2 years now. I have almost 600 rounds of factory ammo to shoot for now.
With tons of 6mm bullets, plenty of powders, and lots of primers, I'm ticked that brass is the only missing piece. I've read too many stories of unsuccessful attempts to convert 6.5G brass to 6 ARC brass, mainly in gas guns... but I've not tried it yet so can't speak from experience.
I really think this is a great cartridge that came out at a bad time. With that said, I do love the .243 Win and have no plans to stop loading and shooting it.
The 51st edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook is supposed to have load data for 6mm ARC, but I don't know if they also have bolt gun data.
I asked Lyman's customer service. Their response:
"Each load listed in the 51st Edition Reloading Handbook for the 6mm ARC has one load for gas operated guns, and one for bolt action rifles only. "
I does,I have it.
Great video, I have a Howa mini in 6.5 Grendel, it is awesome 90 grain Spears at 2900 fps with H4198 sub MOA Hits them steal plates at 300 meters like a freight train. Cant wait for the Howa mini in 6 Arc. Here in Australia will be in 2023 . I think the Arc bolt gun could replace the 223 & 243. Id love one in a Gas gun but where not allowed gas guns in Aus.
Holy smokes!
Pitchfork in hand.
Great video !!! Thanks 🙏
I’m invested in both the 243 and the ARC. IF I didn’t have barrels in 243 I would switch to the ARC yesterday. Simply put- efficiency. Less brass and powder. Less recoil and more barrel life.
So my debate isn’t 243 vs ARC, it’s ARC vs 6 BR. BR is established, easy to load for accuracy and standard bolt face vs $450 for an ARC bolt.
On the other hand I have two 6 ARC uppers and having one caliber instead of two is efficient also. 🤔🤔. First world problems. 🤷🏼♂️😜
I have a Savage Axis in .243 Winchester. I put a Boyd's stock on it and it is a tack driver. I think I will stick with it over the ARC, and if that makes me a Fudd, then so be it. Lol.
You can get Tikkas in 1:8 twist for the 243 and pretty sure Howa makes it in 1:9.
I think the 270 like the 243 would benefit from a faster twist .
Yes it would! The Steyr Pro Hunter is the only factory rifle I’m aware of that has a fast twist rate for the .270 Win…it’s a 1:8.5” twist rate. Stabilizes up to 180gr bullets!
Agreed
Agreed. But I wonder if the elk and deer I've harvested over the years have any complaints about the less than optimal ballistics of the 270 I used. ;-)
Would have been nice to 6mm Creedmoor compared as well. The light recoil of the ARC certainly is attractive.
Hey neighbor, not too far from you down in the Chattahoochee Valley area. I've built 2 6ARC AR's over the past 5 months, an 18" and 22".Have about 1k rounds dowen each and they both are stellar performers to me, averaging 1/2moa on the 18" and 1/.3moa on the 22" all the way to 1000yds if I do my part. I shoot gas gun matches with them and also some hunting. I love the round so much, I'm rebuilding a SS Model 7 in it over the next couple months(currently in 300SAUM). To me, it's simply a do-it-all round.
Who is rebuilding the bolt face from mag to 6mm prc?
Remington .243 barrels have been 1:9 twist since the beginning. Lots of 1:8 twist barrels in factory guns out there too. Your whole argument centers around being bound by a 1:10 twist barrel in .243, which is not the real-world case.
6mm ARC is more efficient, yes indeed and that's the attraction. 90% of .243 performance with 75% of the powder. Less bang and longer (expected) barrel life too, due to burning less powder.
Heck of a video. I’m starting to really eye the 6mm ARC
Nice video, any ideas on LR Primers, still looking.
Good comparison of efficiency of powder chg.
🤣 If all of the data used for your decision is coming from 1 Hornady reloading manual, well.............rock on brother. Lol. You should double check your specs on the Axis also, because the 2 that I have are a 1 in 9.25 twist. Not 1 in 10
Savage 243 is 1 in 9.25 twist. Whether that's substantially better than 1 in 10 is a separate question.
I have the savage axis 243 and shoot 103gr and 105gr with quarter inch moa. The chronograph says there cooking at around 3000fps. I have dropped deer out to 500+ and 1 elk cow at 535 yards. Very pleased with the 243 performance.
Well if you collaborate other Reloading Data the comparison is not as close as hornaday would have you believe. I've been shooting 243 for the last four decades and the 6 mm ARC is just a slightly modified version of the 6 mm ppc. A 6 mm 1 and 10 twist means you should stick with a 90 grain or lighter bullet. And what you say about Factory 243 barrels is correct. They do not stabilize anyting well over 90 . 100 grain 243 is not well stabilized with a 1 in 10 twist. I have bought custom barrels with a 1 and 8 twist and they work with 105 grain 243. You are kidding yourself if you think a 6 mm Arc is on par or close with a 243 Winchester for velocity. Hornady did the same thing with the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 260 Remington and they're reloading manuals. They fudge the numbers to make their miraculous new cartridge look better than it really is. It's called marketing with fake news. I have chronograph 243 loads and you are not going to equal or get close to 243 velocity with a 6 mm Arc without blowing out primers
Hmmmm SAMI spec has the ARC at 62,000 psi for use in bolt guns and only 60,000 psi for the 243 Win. Out of my 24 inch barrels I have less the 50 fps between the two rounds with a 100-103gr bullets with 10 grs less powder in the ARC. Case efficiency is a real quantifiable thing, especially when heavy for caliber bullets are involved. For some reason people don't think improvements can be made in cartridges because they can't understand why
@@BcFuTw9jt all smaller cases burn less powder that's not a mystery that I understand. And you have to burn faster burning powders in the small cases because of limited case volume that is something I understand. Whenever you are burning faster burning powder in a smaller case to achieve the same velocity with the same bullet it takes a lot more pressure that is something I understand. Maybe someday you will understand that.
@@BcFuTw9jt plus you can load 243 to the same pressure as a 6 mm Arc if you work your loads up and you have the proper firearm and when you do that there's no way in hell a 6 mm Arc achieves the same velocity or within 50 ft of the same velocity of a 243
My dad reloads and he's come to the same conclusions.
Only reason he doesn't switch is "I'm too old to buy a new rifle"
IMHO, 243 has been and is a super great hunting cartridge. To me, this debate is sort of moot, as 243 Winchester vs. Hornady 6mm ARC is an apples-oranges comparison.
243Win=Hunting cartridge
6mmARC=Target shooting
I'm not a hunter anymore, but am enjoying target shooting in my semi retirement. So I got me an AR-15 with a 22" 6mm ARC upper, with a Vortex Venom 5-25x56 scope. It's a kick ass target rifle, shoots little tiny groups at 100 yards, and I can ring steel with it all the way to 800 yards...so far.
If I was gonna go hunting again, I wouldn't take my AR. I would go get myself a light weight bolt gun, probably in .308 or .270, with a 4x scope on it, and go slay me some deer at 75-100 yards.... maximum... but more realistically at 100-150 feet..LOL..
the savage 110 switchback or tactical over the axis. way better action than the axis.
Barrel life is way better than 243 also. I'm tossing around the idea of building a 6 ARC bolt gun. Getting away from the AR mag would be a huge benefit for this cartridge and I wouldn't consider doing a bolt gun unless it uses a different mag that would allow longer COAL.
Also increases the pressure you can run in a bolt gun over a gass gun. I have about 50 fps between the ARC and the 243 with 100-103 gr bullets out of a 24 inch barrel
Can you use an AR mag with a single shot adapter? That was gonna be my plan
@@skeet330 Yes. I think Bob sled makes a loading block/sled for the AR mag, if not it wouldn't be hard to make one.
I've wondered whether the mini-actions (e.g. CZ 527 and Howa Mini) can be loaded to the "bolt gun" levels. We know that traditional short actions can handle it, but as far as I know the Howa Mini and CZ 527 (now discontinued) have smaller lugs on the bolt and smaller diameter receivers when compared to their big brothers (e.g. Howa 1500). Maybe I'm being overly conservative, especially considering that the Hornady load book suggested they used a CZ527, but assuming that the mini-actions can handle the same bolt thrust as a short action has always nagged at me. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
The Howa Mini is a lot smaller action than 1500 alright , It has just came out in the states in 6 Arc.I have been loading the the Howa Mini in 6.5 Grendel for 1 year, I have put 900 rounds through it. All different bullet weights & have put some pretty hot loads through it with no problems , I keep a eye on the bolt face for pitting but its still perfect, have settled on a load of h4198 which is max load in my reloading book of 2900 fps sub MOA.
The CZ 527 was discontinued. If you could find one, buy it.
Savage is doing the 110 and Axis II with the ARC now. I've only used the 110 with a 24 inch barrel and have had no issues with the max bolt gun loads so far
So you mention chamber pressure, the bolt gun loads for the 6 arc are 60k-63k most load data for the 243 win keeps pressures to around 54k. Pressure to pressure the 243 will walk away but also as you said it has the wrong twist. The arc falls somewhere between the 6ppc and 6 dasher in design and performance. I'm a huge 243 win/a.i. fan that being said I'm building a flyweight 6 arc with a 18" barrel.
80gr 6arc is on my list. I want that 3000 fps.
Both Rem and Savage 1/9 twist. I have both and they shoot 105 and 107's out of factory barrels.
I get 3015 out of 22 inch barrel .5gr below max and no pressure signs.
So if I were to get another gun I'd just spend it on prefit 1/8 and be happier.
And the 6mm Rem will outrun both. Unless you are a high volume shooter most of what is stated is pointless.
Tired of band-wagon jumpers.
I sure didn’t think they was that close !!!
It isn't that close it is called marketing by Hornady. By fudging numbers in their reloading book. They did the same thing with the 6-5 Creedmoor and the 260 Remington fudge the numbers to make the 65 Creedmoor look good.
@@Mike-xi4zt No you just don't have the means or ability to test it your self. I get the two of them within 50fps out of 24 inches barrels in a bolt gun with 100-103gr bullets every day
@@BcFuTw9jt I've already done it. maybe you don't have the ways and means
It is like buying the latest motor vehicle. It is definitely more effiecient and faster then the older model. Thing is, it is a tool. Learn to use the correct tool properly. I am very suprised that the average joe can't see the marketing hype behind all these latest cartridge developments. But it is fun reading and listening to all of this!🤣🙈
Love it! I just picked up my CMMG Resolute in 6 ARC. I'm dying to shoot it 🙂
I bought a 6.5 creedmore for my 9 year old to shoot he shot a deer at 70 yards this year it didn't go 25 yards
The 6.5 has been my “go-to” round for the past two seasons for deer…great choice
And it did nothing that a a simple .243 wouldn't have done. Or any of 100 other calibers as well.
If you need 6.5 Grendel brass, simply backorder it from Starline. It will come sooner than you expect.
good luck on that, I called them a while back and they said they couldn't back order. Maybe things have changed. Starline is great brass, my fav.
@@aceprater5397 they open back orders from time to time. they just did the other day.
So why not just go with the 6 creedmoor instead of arc
Well both of my remington varmint rifles in 243 are 1 /9/14 twist my 6mm is a 1/9 twist the 243 shoots 107gr sierra better then I can make it shoot another thing you have to look at 243 ammo is just about every where around the world 6 arc has one company loading for it hornady. It has its place but doesn't replace anything. Remember 6 br 6 br. Norma 6ppc 6xc 6 dasher the all have there uses. 243 will never die off the latest an greatest isn't always the best
I've tried shooting 105 grain boat tail hollow points out of 1 in 9 twist and had them tumble before they went 20 yards. I really doubt your claim based on my experience. Remington factory twist rate does not stabilize much of anything over 90 grain especially boat tail style bullets. Some flat base might semi stabilize.
@@Mike-xi4zt you must think I'm a fucken idiot how did you see the said bullet tumble at 20 yds. From said rifle explain please. A 9 twist will stabilize a 105 gr an a 107 gr so I call b.s on your end
Unless your game is shooting long range non-living targets, I don’t see the great advantage to choosing the 6mm ARC over the .243 Winchester. The longer, high B.C. bullets afforded by the 6mm ARC do not add appreciable value when compared to 95-100 grain projectiles currently used to take medium sized game within the ranges suited to cartridge class and bore diameter of the .243 Win/6mm ARC. If you’re a hunter, 300-350 yards should be about the extent you should attempt to take deer at, given the small bullet diameter and the lack of energy at those ranges. The 100 grain .243 bullet has a sectional density of .242, which is quite adequate for a deer bullet.
6mm arc 108 eld match is.249 sectional density
@@lonecrapshooter6197
You beet me to it.
And its a full semi auto
To me it's the same as comparing a 300 win mag to a 300 short mag. I can get slightly less performance in a package that's shorter and lighter. I can buy a 6mm ARC that's 4 lbs 10 oz with a 22" barrel (Howa mini). I also like to shoot mono bullets, the Barnes LRX needs a 1:8 twist even though it's only 95 grains, so the ARC seems like a good choice (2200 FPS and 1000 ft-lbs at 350 yards).
I have a Ruger no.1 in 243 Winchester with a 1in 7.75" twist that shoots 107 grain SMK into under half an inch for 5 shots at 100 yards. You are not stuck with a 1 in 10 twist.
I knew the comment section would be filled with butt-hurt .243 win owners. 🤣 For me its all about efficiency. When you can get almost the same performance with 2/3-3/4 the powder, for me its a pretty easy decision. Same reason I went with the .308 win vs the 30-06. Your deer, coyote, prairie dog or paper target at 1000 yards is not going to notice 100fps difference.
And actually at a thousand yard, you can get more energy with the ARC over the .243 win, because you can actually shoot high B.C bullets out of the ARC. Yeah you can shoot 110 grain bullets out of the .243 win, but without a custom barrel, you'll get to see what the silhouette of you bullet will look like downrange. 🤣 Just my 2 cents.
EXACTLY!
Also I think the faster twist rate are good for copper solids which would be an extreme advantage of a LR bolt gun where you don't have to load to mag length.
agreed. I wanted to run the 100gr patriot valley arms seneca's, but josh over there said i'd need about another 0.2-0.25" over mag length to load those properly since they have a long OAL
I guess it would be pretty pointless to come up with a new cartridge, if it would'nt be better then the old one 🤔
You argument is ridiculous. Your not comparing a cartridge. You are comparing available twist rates available from one manufacturer. The ARC is designed for a gas gun and the lack of material left in the bolt with big case head limits it on pressure. You compare factory 243 to higher pressure ARC handloads that are not available as factory.
Not a fan of the 243, I own one, my wife won it at a Turkey Federation Banquet, it’s only seen factory ammo, I was is the process of working up loads when I had my stroke. To me the 243 and the 410 shotgun falls into the same type shooter and it’s not a beginner.
To me the 243 and 410 falls into the of very experienced shooter, both have the ability to kill, in the right hands, both have the ability to do a lot or wounding in the wrong hands!
The only plus the 6 ark has over the 243 is rifle platform, I love the AR (556) platform.
10 grains in bullet weight is splitting hairs, it’s not enough of a difference to be a game changer!
But! The 243 has the time advantage, components and rifles are everywhere,
Dumping the 243 makes sense for a 24 caliber shooter. As a 24 caliber shooter for over 35 years let me explain. I own a 6MM ARC in an AR15 platform and it fixes the M1 Carbine, M4 problem. Meaning that functional in close work as well as longer range capability in wind is greatly improved. Medium game is a possibility at limited ranges, a one rifle solution for a family man, hunting wnd defense. This is done in a 16" barrel with a single weight projectile, the 6MM ARC is perfect at 52,000 PSI in an self loading platform.
If you want a 24 caliber bolt gun for field work from the perspective of using it for varmints and medium game the 6MM Remington is a far better choice. The 6MM ARC and the 243 are not lousy choices however outside the parameters of 6MM ARC auto loader in terms of light weight and heavyweight projectiles there's not enough difference between the 243 and the 6MM ARC to justify the 243 in a bolt rifle.
With that said for the handloader, the 6MM Remington offers a 65,000 PSI case, added capacity which for me yields 3,900 FPS with 75 grain Hornady and 3,300 FPS with 107 Sierra.
The 243 has had its day but the 6MM ARC is the now and future for either platform and for the bolt gun only croud the 6MM Remington takes the 6MM cartridge to (I hate this term) magnum levels for working bolt rifles
The 6mm Remington is great choice for sure…Remington really dropped the ball when they introduced it by going with a slower twist rate…that really handicapped the potential in the beginning.
@@alabamareloader Remington has long been know for unusual choices. With the modern efficient cartridges available I think we'll see other older cartridges take a back seat in the future.
The ARC certainly makes the 243 a poor choice in any platform. If you have to push the 243 hard why not get real high end performance with the 6mm Remington?
Your arguments are well thought out, and certainly are correct from a performance point of view. However, I think you overstate your case by saying that the the .243 Winchester is a poor choice in any platform when compared to the 6mm ARC or 6mm Remington. I’m a handloader and a hunter, and I feel the need to remind you not to neglect the practicality aspect of the .243 Winchester. Factory loaded ammunition, dies, and reloading components such as new and used brass are common and plentiful, whereas the same cannot be said for either the 6mm Remington or the ARC. For the deer/coyote hunter, I don’t see either cartridge unseating the .243 any time soon, certainly not the 6mm Remington. Again I’m not arguing against the ballistic superiority of either cartridge, but practicality rules the day when I can only expect marginal performance gains from another cartridge (for my application which is deer hunting). For my hunting needs, I’ll stick with my .270 and .243.
You mentioned 3300 fps with 107 gr Sierra 6mm rem. You will need a custom barrel with a 1 in 8 twist to keep them from wobbling or tumbling. I do not think any factory 6mm rem barrels were made for anything high BC. 243 is basically equal in or sometimes better performance with some of the newer powders. 6mm load data is lagging in updates for newer powder. 243 can be made from 308, 7mm08, 260rem, 6mm rem is based off of 7mm mauser and cannot be made from 308 series cases. 6mm rem or 243 win will easily outperform a 6mm arc/ppc irregardless of what Hornady manual numbers are.
I have tried 105 grain bthp berger on deer and will no longer use them. They break up way to easily. All copper, bonded core, or partition are what you should use for deer. High bc bthp is good for shooting targets and varmints not deer.
copy of the 6mm PPC benchrest
Don’t buy an Axis. I live my 6ARC gas gun. Building a bolt gun this summer.
Stop falling for the hype if you need an excuse to buy another rifle just do it. Average shooters would never know the difference but if you're in a big boy game the 243 with the correct twist and throat will beat the Arc hand's down
2 years later and 243 is still better
Hammer on bro, I’ll skip this vid
Yammer not hammer
Spell check