Everyone who used an unforgivable is either depressed or deranged. The killing curse is the only way to split your soul in half and lose a piece of yourself. The HP lore implies, that using an unforgivable does harm to the user. Hurting others requires hurt or being hurt, at a level that you must not want to take it back. “Didn’t mean to” or “it was a reflex” are therefore out of the window. So is “in the heat of the battle” or “giving someone the release of death” (wizards use potions for peaceful farewells). Now you’re most likely wondering “but death eaters use it all the time”. And to that I say, read the books…cause using them successfully once ruins you so far, that casting them again is no issue. The slytherins and gaunts doomed themselves (aside the whole incest part mentioned in the books) and their heirs by giving them generational trauma. The first time Voldy used the killing curse also was the start of him turning into the dark lord and it was when he first found his father after visiting his uncle. His uncle told him a very incomplete story of what transpired between Merope Gaunt and Tom riddle senior. So when voldy confronted his father, who was his spitting image, he did not understand why Tom Riddle senior and his grandparents basically had a panic attack. The feeling of rejection turned into hurt and into vengeance and he first killed his father, then his grandparents, went back to his mother’s home, stole the gaunt heirloom and manipulated his uncle in making him believe, that he killed the Riddles. Then he went back to Hogwarts and set free the Basilisk. So basically the unforgivables are forbidden for more than the obvious reasons. This is why Dumbledore in the book urged Snape to not only protect Malfoy, but to make sure that the child does not have to become a killer. He tried to keep Dracos souls from shattering. Snape on the other hand was able to kill Dumbledore with an unforgivable because he was already a very broken and twisted person (book snape is very different from movie Snape and until a certain point really was a very loyal death eater and had a deal with voldy to “get lily” which is the only reason Lily Potter was given a choice after Voldy killed James and was about to kill Harry, but as we all know, Lily rather died than to step aside from her child).
Me rambling: I think the Killing Curse is ethically good or bad is highly depending on context. In the heat of battle as mentioned and when intention is to kill, then it is no worse than any spells that kills another being, whether it is Avada Kedavra or Diffindo or Reducto or whatever. But in everyday life, choosing to learn Avada Kedavra raises questions. It's one thing if an executioner or a chicken farm wants to learn it to kill "humanely," ", but imagine if a random secretary said, " i want to learn the killing curse". The obvious question is why. Of all the practical spells in the world why learn a spell whose only purpose is to kill. In a peaceful world or even semi peaceful, there is no reason one would ever need that curse unless they have intent to kill someone. Even if someone were to rob you, would it be justify to intently kill someone for that? Wouldnt a confringo enough to scare them? Then that raises issue two. If one did learn the killing curse as a mean of self defense? In what situation self defense would be overriden by intended murder? It would be so easy for a simple lapse of judgement or revenge or the idea of taking justice in one on hands, can so easily kill someone without batting an eye. So the Killing Curse being illegal in a society has less to do with curse itself, but more of the intent of the learner. Because one learns it so one can use it with the intent to kill. If the argument is purely self defense, then as the argument raised in the video, you can still kill with other spells, and thus there is no need to actually learn the Killing Curse.
I love this, for this sounds precisely like an argument that my own character would make. In the timeline I've got going with some close friends for some RP my character eventually becomes Minister of Magic and unbans the Unforgivables based on this very logic. I mean... worse still than Amortentia forcing infatuation, what about the Cheering Charm? It forces one into a state of happiness, regardless of circumstances, which is very similar to the function of Imperio as the Imperius Curse only really makes people more pliable due to inducing a state of euphoria in the one being cursed. So ultimately I think it should come down to this: legislate against murder and pointless torture and the undue manipulation of peoples' minds and unban the Unforgivables because, despite the "intent", they are, in a sense, a mercy in a pinch. Instant and clean, disabling, and passifying for the Killing, Cruciatus, and Imperius curses respectively.
While I normally really like your videos and I do agree with most of Ominis' characterisation here, I feel like he's actually decently okay with self-defence and wouldn't defend poachers. Considering Ominis' response to finding out about Rookwood's death, saying that he "got what he deserved," showing that he's not adverse to the idea of "bad people dying" or fighting back, and he says "poor Sebastian" when we go to talk with him for the option to turn Sebastian in. Showing that he does understand Sebastian's difficult position and that the fault for this "mess" doesn't all lie with Seb. He just doesn't like dark magic specifically because of his family. Mildly unreasonable but that's how trauma works xP Otherwise, it's a pretty great conversation, nice characterisation! Ominis does feel like the type to change the topic when he's losing an argument xD It's kinda cool too, seeing a bit more about Lenne, the fic I've been writing has an MC with some similar opinions to her, though, mine's argument would focus more on the "every moment my attacker is alive, is another chance for my death, so only an idiot would give an enemy more chances to kill you. In civilised school duels, sure, honor and chance to fight back whatever, but outside of school, you don't wait for someone to shoot you first." Like, if a soldier shouts "drop your weapon" in a battle, they're just dead now and the wand is basically a gun, are you really going to give an attacker the chance to avada you first? My partner, (who was in the military) his commander said that, theoretically, you're supposed to fire a warning shot, but irl you shoot the enemy first, and then fire at the ground so you can say you made a warning shot on paper. Real life just isn't nice enough of a place to "be kind" rather than protect yourself and I feel like HL was really going for that realistic vibe despite being a fantasy world, and I love that so much- so I would apply realistic philosophy to it xP That ended up being really long, sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on ethics and gun control policies xP
No not at all, I appreciate your thoughts on this! I wish I was able to do the longer version of this video because it does go more into Ominis' line of thinking, especially how free MC is with her magic. Also addresses that her going after poachers tends to be more proactive than self-defense. It's more of a cut at the original game, since the player can use Unforgivables so freely, but the original was 13+ minutes so, here we are lol. I agree with you in thinking Ominis has a more practical position than not for, like you said, bad people dying. I framed this conversation more to be two young kids talking from trauma, and there's a lot to unpack here that I really want to do with future videos and Sebastian and some of the other characters as well. Thank you also for mentioning your partner's perspective as well. It's definitely what I was thinking as well - we have the theory that tells us how we're supposed to approach things, but in practice real life is anything but what we're taught by the book. I've seen this perspective not through military but with almost my entire family composed of doctors and lawyers, and there are so many grey areas to life that I feel is easily applicable to magic. Guess it tends to be a lot easier to argue ethics in a fiction context than reality haha. Anyway I appreciate your thoughts, so don't worry for a second for apologizing haha. Magical ethics and how it related to our own RL is something I've wanted to write about for a long time and I'm glad you've taken the time to share as well
@AlentiaHart Whew, I was a little worried that my comment might be taken as offensive, I'm relieved that it wasn’t haha Aw, I would have loved to see that 13mins, I'm a big fan of longform, my usual TH-cam is at least 2hrs or I pass (so it's pretty lucky I found your videos haha), cos I find it difficult to touch all those nitty gritty small but significant details in shortform- which is why my fic is almost 200k words and barely halfway through x') I do like that the game lets the player decide how they want to envision the lore variation of "going after poachers", leaving it up to us if the MC is hunting poachers or just accidentally stumbling into camps, but it's definitely a proactive approach from the player mindset, and it does make for a fun type of MC to write x3 Yes, this would be framed in the context of their narrative relationship, which is slightly separate from the ethical discussion aspects, thanks for making that distinction clear! I eagerly await those future videos and seeing what exactly Lenne has experienced that Ominis was referring to. This has definitely gotten me curious =D Oof, yeah, laywers and doctors, those are some really really rough grey areas too, I can only imagine- It's curious for me sometimes, when I see people with very firm lines between what's "right" and "wrong," instantly judging people without looking at their circumstances, and I sometimes wonder what their life has been like, to have presumably never encountered the concept of grey 🤔 Also, I absolutely agree that fiction and fantasy make it easier to discuss ethics, which is why I love stories, regardless of what form of media they take. Someone once asked why I'm so idiotically passionate about a fictional character, and I'm like, "because this fictional character represents thousands of real world people" some people just don't understand metaphors and symbolism, apparently ^_^' So, it's so wonderful to find a fellow gamer who also reads deep into narrative, characterisation, and story! Not to mention, has such an excellent handle of dialogue timing in her videos. Seriously, your stitching is better than HL itself, have you tried the option to crucio Sebastian? He goes from dying to happy in half a millisecond, "I'll survive, let's keep going- WE MADE IT! We found Salazar's Scriptorium!" I went from "oh God, I'm so sorry, Sebastian, but I- I just had to for the lore!" To dying from laughter at the same speed xD
Amazing work on the video. I love it and I guess she kinda has a point about that but I would not use the three unforgivable curses on innocent people. I would just use it on the dark wizards and goblins that’s what I’m playing as in the game.
@@SwordmaidenGwen You’re right it does make a lot of sense and again once to get all three unforgivable I only got one of Crucio are use on the dark wizards and goblins and once I get all three of them they’re going in my arson use, but I will switch to my other spell to actually don’t constantly use them. 🫠
@villainy7 Hm? It does apply to me too, of course, it applies to everyone. If I attack someone, they have every right to kill me. That's how it works? O.o
@villainy7 I never said it didn't apply to myself lol "Don't start a fight with someone unless you're ready to lose and face the worst possible consequences" is a normal lesson we learn as kids, isn't it? Bring it into adulthood, and it upgrades to "Don't shoot at someone unless you're ready to die."
@villainy7 Seriously though, I'm genuinely asking why. Why would you prefer to not have an instant-kill gun while being hunted through a dark alley by a serial killer with an instant-kill gun? Just so you can say, "My would-be murderer has a chance to fight for their survival."? Ominis' reason is childhood trauma with Unforgivables, so it makes sense that he'd be biased. Is your reason really just some abstract concept of honour applied to every scenario regardless of context and circumstance? Like, I'm sorry to badger you about this, but I have to know, because it really doesn't make sense to me. If I tried to kill someone, for some inexplicable and hypothetical reason, I'd expect them to use any means necessary to kill me before I kill them.
I wasn’t sure where she was going at first, it isn’t till the end before the love potions bit that I get her whole point. She agrees that the Unforgivable curses are indeed unforgivable, but other spells/potions that are just as likely to kill, hurt and control are considered okay and legal to use. The intended uses of these spells/potions are the same, so why should they get a free pass when Avada doesn’t? She’s not against the outlawing of them, just the double standard when it comes to similar spells. I can’t believe I’ve never thought about this before, so thanks for the philosophical discussion.
Actually the killing curse isn't inherently evil, you don't require cruelty or evil intent to cast it, just the intent to kill. You can just as easily have the intent to kill and cast it on a cockroach as you would still have that same intent as you use your boot. All a spell needs to work is the feeling, the intent behind it in order for it to work.
This might be a really dumb question, but is this just an overheard conversation in the common room? Or was this your creation? Either way, great video 👏🏼
Thanks! My creation here, this isn't from the game other than the assets being modded and captured in-engine, and Ominis's voice AI'd. And I voiced Lenne
After watching this I can't stop thinking about only if Seb uses any other charms instead of the imperius curse while saving Anne, everything might be different 🥲
She’s has some great points, there are many spells that are just as bad as the unforgivables, potions as well
Ominis: You have to have evil intent
MC: blasting every poacher with a flick of their wand
Those were very good questions and deep thinking.
The "Love spells and Love potions" debate harks back to another one of your series. "I love you".
I have a LOT of thoughts when it comes to love spells haha, it’s the one thing out of the lore I can talk circles about
Everyone who used an unforgivable is either depressed or deranged.
The killing curse is the only way to split your soul in half and lose a piece of yourself.
The HP lore implies, that using an unforgivable does harm to the user. Hurting others requires hurt or being hurt, at a level that you must not want to take it back.
“Didn’t mean to” or “it was a reflex” are therefore out of the window. So is “in the heat of the battle” or “giving someone the release of death” (wizards use potions for peaceful farewells).
Now you’re most likely wondering “but death eaters use it all the time”. And to that I say, read the books…cause using them successfully once ruins you so far, that casting them again is no issue.
The slytherins and gaunts doomed themselves (aside the whole incest part mentioned in the books) and their heirs by giving them generational trauma.
The first time Voldy used the killing curse also was the start of him turning into the dark lord and it was when he first found his father after visiting his uncle. His uncle told him a very incomplete story of what transpired between Merope Gaunt and Tom riddle senior. So when voldy confronted his father, who was his spitting image, he did not understand why Tom Riddle senior and his grandparents basically had a panic attack. The feeling of rejection turned into hurt and into vengeance and he first killed his father, then his grandparents, went back to his mother’s home, stole the gaunt heirloom and manipulated his uncle in making him believe, that he killed the Riddles. Then he went back to Hogwarts and set free the Basilisk.
So basically the unforgivables are forbidden for more than the obvious reasons.
This is why Dumbledore in the book urged Snape to not only protect Malfoy, but to make sure that the child does not have to become a killer. He tried to keep Dracos souls from shattering.
Snape on the other hand was able to kill Dumbledore with an unforgivable because he was already a very broken and twisted person (book snape is very different from movie Snape and until a certain point really was a very loyal death eater and had a deal with voldy to “get lily” which is the only reason Lily Potter was given a choice after Voldy killed James and was about to kill Harry, but as we all know, Lily rather died than to step aside from her child).
Me rambling:
I think the Killing Curse is ethically good or bad is highly depending on context. In the heat of battle as mentioned and when intention is to kill, then it is no worse than any spells that kills another being, whether it is Avada Kedavra or Diffindo or Reducto or whatever. But in everyday life, choosing to learn Avada Kedavra raises questions. It's one thing if an executioner or a chicken farm wants to learn it to kill "humanely," ", but imagine if a random secretary said, " i want to learn the killing curse". The obvious question is why. Of all the practical spells in the world why learn a spell whose only purpose is to kill. In a peaceful world or even semi peaceful, there is no reason one would ever need that curse unless they have intent to kill someone. Even if someone were to rob you, would it be justify to intently kill someone for that? Wouldnt a confringo enough to scare them? Then that raises issue two. If one did learn the killing curse as a mean of self defense? In what situation self defense would be overriden by intended murder? It would be so easy for a simple lapse of judgement or revenge or the idea of taking justice in one on hands, can so easily kill someone without batting an eye. So the Killing Curse being illegal in a society has less to do with curse itself, but more of the intent of the learner. Because one learns it so one can use it with the intent to kill. If the argument is purely self defense, then as the argument raised in the video, you can still kill with other spells, and thus there is no need to actually learn the Killing Curse.
0:17 i like the way he said "For Merlin's sake, woman"
I love this, for this sounds precisely like an argument that my own character would make. In the timeline I've got going with some close friends for some RP my character eventually becomes Minister of Magic and unbans the Unforgivables based on this very logic. I mean... worse still than Amortentia forcing infatuation, what about the Cheering Charm? It forces one into a state of happiness, regardless of circumstances, which is very similar to the function of Imperio as the Imperius Curse only really makes people more pliable due to inducing a state of euphoria in the one being cursed. So ultimately I think it should come down to this: legislate against murder and pointless torture and the undue manipulation of peoples' minds and unban the Unforgivables because, despite the "intent", they are, in a sense, a mercy in a pinch. Instant and clean, disabling, and passifying for the Killing, Cruciatus, and Imperius curses respectively.
While I normally really like your videos and I do agree with most of Ominis' characterisation here, I feel like he's actually decently okay with self-defence and wouldn't defend poachers.
Considering Ominis' response to finding out about Rookwood's death, saying that he "got what he deserved," showing that he's not adverse to the idea of "bad people dying" or fighting back, and he says "poor Sebastian" when we go to talk with him for the option to turn Sebastian in. Showing that he does understand Sebastian's difficult position and that the fault for this "mess" doesn't all lie with Seb.
He just doesn't like dark magic specifically because of his family. Mildly unreasonable but that's how trauma works xP
Otherwise, it's a pretty great conversation, nice characterisation! Ominis does feel like the type to change the topic when he's losing an argument xD
It's kinda cool too, seeing a bit more about Lenne, the fic I've been writing has an MC with some similar opinions to her, though, mine's argument would focus more on the "every moment my attacker is alive, is another chance for my death, so only an idiot would give an enemy more chances to kill you. In civilised school duels, sure, honor and chance to fight back whatever, but outside of school, you don't wait for someone to shoot you first."
Like, if a soldier shouts "drop your weapon" in a battle, they're just dead now and the wand is basically a gun, are you really going to give an attacker the chance to avada you first?
My partner, (who was in the military) his commander said that, theoretically, you're supposed to fire a warning shot, but irl you shoot the enemy first, and then fire at the ground so you can say you made a warning shot on paper.
Real life just isn't nice enough of a place to "be kind" rather than protect yourself and I feel like HL was really going for that realistic vibe despite being a fantasy world, and I love that so much- so I would apply realistic philosophy to it xP
That ended up being really long, sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on ethics and gun control policies xP
No not at all, I appreciate your thoughts on this! I wish I was able to do the longer version of this video because it does go more into Ominis' line of thinking, especially how free MC is with her magic. Also addresses that her going after poachers tends to be more proactive than self-defense. It's more of a cut at the original game, since the player can use Unforgivables so freely, but the original was 13+ minutes so, here we are lol.
I agree with you in thinking Ominis has a more practical position than not for, like you said, bad people dying. I framed this conversation more to be two young kids talking from trauma, and there's a lot to unpack here that I really want to do with future videos and Sebastian and some of the other characters as well.
Thank you also for mentioning your partner's perspective as well. It's definitely what I was thinking as well - we have the theory that tells us how we're supposed to approach things, but in practice real life is anything but what we're taught by the book. I've seen this perspective not through military but with almost my entire family composed of doctors and lawyers, and there are so many grey areas to life that I feel is easily applicable to magic. Guess it tends to be a lot easier to argue ethics in a fiction context than reality haha.
Anyway I appreciate your thoughts, so don't worry for a second for apologizing haha. Magical ethics and how it related to our own RL is something I've wanted to write about for a long time and I'm glad you've taken the time to share as well
@AlentiaHart Whew, I was a little worried that my comment might be taken as offensive, I'm relieved that it wasn’t haha
Aw, I would have loved to see that 13mins, I'm a big fan of longform, my usual TH-cam is at least 2hrs or I pass (so it's pretty lucky I found your videos haha), cos I find it difficult to touch all those nitty gritty small but significant details in shortform- which is why my fic is almost 200k words and barely halfway through x')
I do like that the game lets the player decide how they want to envision the lore variation of "going after poachers", leaving it up to us if the MC is hunting poachers or just accidentally stumbling into camps, but it's definitely a proactive approach from the player mindset, and it does make for a fun type of MC to write x3
Yes, this would be framed in the context of their narrative relationship, which is slightly separate from the ethical discussion aspects, thanks for making that distinction clear! I eagerly await those future videos and seeing what exactly Lenne has experienced that Ominis was referring to. This has definitely gotten me curious =D
Oof, yeah, laywers and doctors, those are some really really rough grey areas too, I can only imagine-
It's curious for me sometimes, when I see people with very firm lines between what's "right" and "wrong," instantly judging people without looking at their circumstances, and I sometimes wonder what their life has been like, to have presumably never encountered the concept of grey 🤔
Also, I absolutely agree that fiction and fantasy make it easier to discuss ethics, which is why I love stories, regardless of what form of media they take. Someone once asked why I'm so idiotically passionate about a fictional character, and I'm like, "because this fictional character represents thousands of real world people" some people just don't understand metaphors and symbolism, apparently ^_^'
So, it's so wonderful to find a fellow gamer who also reads deep into narrative, characterisation, and story!
Not to mention, has such an excellent handle of dialogue timing in her videos. Seriously, your stitching is better than HL itself, have you tried the option to crucio Sebastian? He goes from dying to happy in half a millisecond, "I'll survive, let's keep going- WE MADE IT! We found Salazar's Scriptorium!"
I went from "oh God, I'm so sorry, Sebastian, but I- I just had to for the lore!" To dying from laughter at the same speed xD
Amazing video as always. Just found you on TH-cam after your fanfic Sentire on AO3. Anxiously waiting for next chapters there. ❤❤
Thank you!! Grateful for you finding me 🥹 Almost done with the next chapter, so very soon!
I mean she has a point
Amazing work on the video. I love it and I guess she kinda has a point about that but I would not use the three unforgivable curses on innocent people. I would just use it on the dark wizards and goblins that’s what I’m playing as in the game.
Yeah same, it's the difference between self-defence and just killing for sport, and that makes a world of difference xD
@@SwordmaidenGwen
You’re right it does make a lot of sense and again once to get all three unforgivable I only got one of Crucio are use on the dark wizards and goblins and once I get all three of them they’re going in my arson use, but I will switch to my other spell to actually don’t constantly use them. 🫠
the difference is, the other spells offer a fighting chance at survival. but instant death is instant death. Im with Omi on this one.
Why do you want your attacker to survive and get another chance to kill you? O.o
@@SwordmaidenGwen why does this only apply to your attacker and not you?
@villainy7 Hm? It does apply to me too, of course, it applies to everyone. If I attack someone, they have every right to kill me. That's how it works? O.o
@villainy7 I never said it didn't apply to myself lol
"Don't start a fight with someone unless you're ready to lose and face the worst possible consequences" is a normal lesson we learn as kids, isn't it? Bring it into adulthood, and it upgrades to "Don't shoot at someone unless you're ready to die."
@villainy7 Seriously though, I'm genuinely asking why.
Why would you prefer to not have an instant-kill gun while being hunted through a dark alley by a serial killer with an instant-kill gun? Just so you can say, "My would-be murderer has a chance to fight for their survival."?
Ominis' reason is childhood trauma with Unforgivables, so it makes sense that he'd be biased. Is your reason really just some abstract concept of honour applied to every scenario regardless of context and circumstance?
Like, I'm sorry to badger you about this, but I have to know, because it really doesn't make sense to me. If I tried to kill someone, for some inexplicable and hypothetical reason, I'd expect them to use any means necessary to kill me before I kill them.
Where have you been?!?! Bits been so long
Unfortunately been a rough holiday season but I’m back on making videos!
@@AlentiaHart aww well I hope everything gets better!
Lenne: “I prefer Avada Kadavra”
Ominis: “Leeeeeenne that kills people!”
Lenne: “hear that? That’s the sound of kindness”
Ominis: “that’s the sound of poachers dying, Lenne”
Lenne: “that’s what kindness sounds like. No screaming, Instant silence”
I wasn’t sure where she was going at first, it isn’t till the end before the love potions bit that I get her whole point. She agrees that the Unforgivable curses are indeed unforgivable, but other spells/potions that are just as likely to kill, hurt and control are considered okay and legal to use. The intended uses of these spells/potions are the same, so why should they get a free pass when Avada doesn’t? She’s not against the outlawing of them, just the double standard when it comes to similar spells. I can’t believe I’ve never thought about this before, so thanks for the philosophical discussion.
i Know that Music its from Mad Father
Yup! Love it
Actually the killing curse isn't inherently evil, you don't require cruelty or evil intent to cast it, just the intent to kill. You can just as easily have the intent to kill and cast it on a cockroach as you would still have that same intent as you use your boot. All a spell needs to work is the feeling, the intent behind it in order for it to work.
Yes I love this!!!!!!
Wait until someone makes an equivalent spell to the tsukuyomi.
This might be a really dumb question, but is this just an overheard conversation in the common room? Or was this your creation? Either way, great video 👏🏼
Thanks! My creation here, this isn't from the game other than the assets being modded and captured in-engine, and Ominis's voice AI'd. And I voiced Lenne
@@AlentiaHart do you have a game Playlist of legacy
That 'you need to have evil intent', thats the moral 😢 i love this video ❤
I think that's just Ominis' opinion, and I'm not sure if you noticed, but Ominis was losing that debate x'D
@@SwordmaidenGwen i noticed and that makes me love this video more lmao
@@fetyfatiahrahmah4741 I see, I guess I misunderstood your comment- My bad xD
Long time no see!
She has got a point tho…..
i love the video! what mod did u use to get the characters to sit?
I’m agree with Ominis I do believe him 💚
Is confringo really as bad as we make it out to be ?
I practically made it my signature go to move in Hogwarts legacy
Hello, if I may ask, what mods did you use for this?
also, i’m curious, what/which room is this? don’t think i’ve ever stumbled upon it in the castle.
ominis is so gryffindor here
Of course it’s Lenne who says that 😂
When Azula goes to Hogwarts.
The real reason was because JK Rowling wasn't really thinking through this xd
Right? JK's really not a world builder, she's just good at writing and is creative, but boy is her world broken as all heck-
After watching this I can't stop thinking about only if Seb uses any other charms instead of the imperius curse while saving Anne, everything might be different 🥲