"Control the sky, control the game." Words my dad said to me as I played 'Starcraft' when I was a kid. And I've carried that as my primary battle doctrine since. Sadly, since Aerotech rules are too complex for my group (for now, but one day we'll figure them out), VTOLs are the only option to apply this in Battletech.
If plane rules are too complex for everybody then I would suggest giving everyone like one or two planes and having that be the match so that people can sort the madness
@@robrib2682 Oh we did one time, and we'll need to again. The game was in open space, and so would the next one. Then we'll introduce a planets gravity field, and slowly descend to the surface. Eventually, we'll be comfortable with them. One thing we all agree on: CGL needs to make an 'Aerotech Manual.' for all the flight rules.
If we're talking VTOLs you gotta give a shout out to the Karnov. It's dirt cheap and can haul anything and everything you need right up to the frontlines.
VTOL's have so many uses it's hard to cover all of them. This becomes increasingly more so the larger the campaign gets. It's hard to see all the uses when we're only focused on a company sized or lower engagement. However, if your force is part of a larger formation, one covering larger areas, then as the commander of such a force, those VTOL really come into their own. Fast Recon, raiders, logistics hunters, moving infantry from one area to another quickly, and so on. Just an opinion of course.
What i always was irritated by is the lack of logistics awareness. Eg. Karnov can carry 6 tons of ammunition and other gear quickly anywhere. With a sensible choice of weaponry that's enough to ameliorate/fix many of the ammunition limitations a formation has, especially since it regularily is employed as field crane, so you can rearm in the field without too much hassle. That can very much change the options of weapon composition even in in a single engagement. Gimme 4 Karnov and a few combat VTOLs to keep them save, and I'll keep a company in the field supplied forever.
@@phonepoies There was a time when such things did matter. Now most folks are all about battle value and tweaking a formation to fit the current challenge. I grouse about the lack of application of logistics all the time. Hell, it was this very topic that did more to cause the Clan's to fail on Tukayyid than anything else and the novel's said so, making it cannon for the dissenters.
The H-7C Lrm Warrior is unironically a fantastic machine for its bV, adding a pair or trio of them to just fly around the map and slam backshots into enemy fire support is wildly useful
When the fluff text states in effect “Yeah, this thing is so loud that we use it for herding our giant land squid” there’s a small part of you that doesn’t care how effective it actually it is in game. Then there’s” We built the Spruce Goose of VTOL’s and it’s coming to take yer mechs… Yoink!”
Unfortunately, it did. VTOL pilots live short but glorious lives if they slowly approach mechs and hover over them... silly MW5 Imagine how irritating they would be if they hid behind hills and popped up to take shots...
A moment to appreciate the surge in Frog production lately. Maybe I'm just late to the party and the algorithm is slugging me. Iunno. Good stuff though. Thank you Froggo
Doing a Periphery campaign right now, and VTOLs are great bang for the buck for those kinds of empires. Far cheaper than mechs and maybe even more useful if their main goal is to mostly deal with poorly equipped pirates. That and Conventional Fighters, anyway.
Even in 1988 the humble vtol had unprecedented reach and mobility even if they were incredibly frail. Fast forward to 1991 we picked up the new TROs and were blown away by the Yellowjacket. Holy cow did we love using that thing. The Hawk Moth came many years later when we were also into the MW clix Age of Destruction era. Solid video as always. Longtime subbie here :-)
Oh yeh baby the Cavalry gotta say I'm a fan , keep them as safe as possible then swarm in for the crits . Gotta be the best VTOL . And no yelling at these choices
Love the well worn TRO 3025 in your videos ! ( As well as the U on the dial!) IMHO the Karnov should have been included. If you need to move infantry FAST in the early eras it is the way ! In games where objectives are important it's extremely valuable. The Ferret is great as well because of it's low buy in cost. Not only a cheap scout but if your opponent fields Warriors the Armored Ferret is a pest that it just can't shake . A single MG doesn't mean much unless it moves at 15/23 and it's outside of your firing arcs every time you loose initiative.
I always pondered putting an Arrow IV system in a VTOL for direct fire attacks at anything in line of sight. Probably wouldn’t make sense thematically though
I love VTOLs because they fit in well with my boom and zoom strategy. I hate VTOLs because their hit table is absolutely horrible. So you've got to keep them at their medium range, with full motion, or strictly as support vehicles.
@@MechanicalFrog Boom and Zoom. I once saved an entire company from a Clan assault because I kept them running. By whatever luck, my opponent kept rolling one under what he needed to hit. I believe in maneuverability. But look at that hit table. Its like half "Rotor"
The Peregrine has always had a place in my heart. Fast with SRMs and Machine guns. Can harass like no other in my mind. It is unfortunately quite fragile, but VTOL pilots often live fast and die hard in the inner sphere.
@@MechanicalFrog I agree. I wish they had a longer range as well. I do find it hilarious though to machine gun boat a light or very fast medium and rush around blasting everything. Good Times. The ammo explosions are legendary.
My first use of a vetol, has scared me out of utilizing them. One LBX is all it takes. Sure it wasn’t downed by the lbx, but seeing how easily a little canister shot can strip a roater made me think.
Remember kids it isn't munchkining if you swarm the ac20 hunchback with warriors, it's just suppressive fire so that you can get your own mechs in position
Just so you know, you said "Longlevity" Instead of longevity. I'm sure you probably noticed as you went over this video, but that's probably my favorite new word from you.
Using Advanced Combat Vee Construction Rules. I made the Combat Vee featured heavily in MW5. Igor-77 (4 AC/2 6.5 Tons Armour) 50 Ton VTOL, 6/9 Movement. Igor-99 (3 UAC2s W/ CASE with 8 Tons Armour) 50 Ton VTOL, 6/9 Movement.
I agree for the most part, but a Gauss Rifle does make the Yellowjacket a target that cannot be ignored, so they can be used to keep some of the heat off of your more important mechs and vehicles. In that situation they are either reducing damage to your other forces, or dealing significant damage to the enemy, either is a good thing. Still I do love the Light Gauss as a weapon system, not as deadly but the range more than makes up for it.
@@MechanicalFrog hmmm tbh a pair of lances of Yellow Jackets for their price and if the map is big enough, means they can out flank and get to the rear of enemy. Forces the otherside to either water down their combat capability against your own Mechs, Vics & Infantry or risk 4 Guass Hugs.
The Ferret is always underrated. I'm not aware of any faster VTOL (15/23), it can carry a squad of infantry (four can carry a whole platoon), and it can keep anything spotted for indirect fire, period. Your enemy simply CANNOT sneak up on you if you make intelligent use of Ferrets. If you're ever tempted to use it's built-in MG, you're using it wrong.
@@MechanicalFrog If your Ferret is stuck for a glorious last stand, charge. Sure, it's only 12 points of damage (at most), but that's better than you'd get from the MG.
Currently working on getting a squadron of Yellowjackets with C3s units and ER PPC swaps, lead by a Raven with a C3m and a couple of skulkers to act as hubs. the destructive potential of having good pilots/ gunners with that system is devastating if you can keep them on the back line
I should mention that I made a refit kit for the raven that added a TAG and the C3m at the cost of the SRM launcher and a change to a light PPC and an ER Small laser. It's fast, it's pokey, it tells everyone where you are, even if you're not in the network. Love it.
I like VTOLs, but their representation in BT games has usually been atrocious. Looking at real world helicopters like the Apache, the Tiger, the Rooikat or the Crocodile, usually they hug the terrain, only peek out whe they have a target and then slide back into cover, so long rangenweapons like the AC2, the ER large laser and LRMs seem the best choice. VTOLs, the Harrier is probably the best comparison, not sure how well the F-35 actuall fares.
@@MechanicalFrog There definitely should be. Plus there are those bits on top of some helicopters that allow them to peek over cover too. An example is the Kiowa helicopter that featured it on top of the rotor mast. In the movie Fire Birds with Nicolas Cage it was shown
@@sim.frischh9781 Off the top of my head, I could see a rule that says if the VTOL is behind cover 2+ should be able to fire at a target. If they do, any return fire has a plus 3 to-hit modifier. If they don't fire, there's no LOS.
@@MechanicalFrog they would need one of those mast modules too to peek over the cover, then they would get a to hit bonus or something, same as if they had a C3 contact or such. Seems practical.
@@sim.frischh9781 I brought it up on Twitter and a few people said that a 2+ would be more reasonable and there might need to be a requirement that the VTOL not be moving previously in the same turn. Otherwise, I think it could work enough for playtesting.
So it's not some sort of industrial abomination cobbled together from spare spaceship parts? I thought the sphere was incapable of manufacturing new mechs? And what kind of self-respecting mech pilot would let the air support steal all their glory? eh just sweep a laser across the sky until you hit it or maybe ask the local spacers to ram it with their shuttles It would be neat to have the the dropship from Aliens or the jet hovercraft from Battlezone 98 as my air support. I might consider using it if it was flown by terminators who crash helis into human mechs so they can board and kill the pilot. Otherwise I have to ask what this realistic design is doing in my stompy robot game
"Control the sky, control the game." Words my dad said to me as I played 'Starcraft' when I was a kid. And I've carried that as my primary battle doctrine since.
Sadly, since Aerotech rules are too complex for my group (for now, but one day we'll figure them out), VTOLs are the only option to apply this in Battletech.
Still a very fun option.
If plane rules are too complex for everybody then I would suggest giving everyone like one or two planes and having that be the match so that people can sort the madness
@@robrib2682 Yeah it's definitely a dip your toes in the water situation.
@@robrib2682 Oh we did one time, and we'll need to again. The game was in open space, and so would the next one. Then we'll introduce a planets gravity field, and slowly descend to the surface.
Eventually, we'll be comfortable with them. One thing we all agree on: CGL needs to make an 'Aerotech Manual.' for all the flight rules.
@@A88mph well, if they do it as a kickstarter then hopefully they'll redesign a stupid looking fighter
The LRM variant warriors saw some good use on our tables. Their speed and indirect fire capacity makes them very tricky to pin down
I can see how that would be irritatingly effective.
you’ve given me some lovely campaign ideas, thanks fam
If we're talking VTOLs you gotta give a shout out to the Karnov.
It's dirt cheap and can haul anything and everything you need right up to the frontlines.
Blessed are the delivery trucks...
Or in BTA hauls your battlearmor to cqc blasting
@@clydecraft5642 Good times had by all.
Everyone loves a VTOL. Except the target of one... they don't love them, at all.
VTOL's have so many uses it's hard to cover all of them. This becomes increasingly more so the larger the campaign gets. It's hard to see all the uses when we're only focused on a company sized or lower engagement. However, if your force is part of a larger formation, one covering larger areas, then as the commander of such a force, those VTOL really come into their own. Fast Recon, raiders, logistics hunters, moving infantry from one area to another quickly, and so on. Just an opinion of course.
Absolutely. Plus they're just neat. :D
@@MechanicalFrog that they are.
What i always was irritated by is the lack of logistics awareness. Eg. Karnov can carry 6 tons of ammunition and other gear quickly anywhere. With a sensible choice of weaponry that's enough to ameliorate/fix many of the ammunition limitations a formation has, especially since it regularily is employed as field crane, so you can rearm in the field without too much hassle. That can very much change the options of weapon composition even in in a single engagement. Gimme 4 Karnov and a few combat VTOLs to keep them save, and I'll keep a company in the field supplied forever.
@@phonepoies There was a time when such things did matter. Now most folks are all about battle value and tweaking a formation to fit the current challenge. I grouse about the lack of application of logistics all the time. Hell, it was this very topic that did more to cause the Clan's to fail on Tukayyid than anything else and the novel's said so, making it cannon for the dissenters.
@@yourseatatthetable exactly
The H-7C Lrm Warrior is unironically a fantastic machine for its bV, adding a pair or trio of them to just fly around the map and slam backshots into enemy fire support is wildly useful
Quite the wildcards. Operation Chaos.
Call my 2 lances of Warriors the Spanish Inquisition cus no one expects them and they end up tormenting their opponents.@@MechanicalFrog
When the fluff text states in effect “Yeah, this thing is so loud that we use it for herding our giant land squid” there’s a small part of you that doesn’t care how effective it actually it is in game.
Then there’s” We built the Spruce Goose of VTOL’s and it’s coming to take yer mechs… Yoink!”
I like some of the Wolf’s Dragoon VTOLs - they look like they can fly, which you can’t say about all aircraft in battletech
So mw5 actually got how fragile the warrior is correct. Wow. Great video.
Unfortunately, it did. VTOL pilots live short but glorious lives if they slowly approach mechs and hover over them... silly MW5
Imagine how irritating they would be if they hid behind hills and popped up to take shots...
Imagine if they actually performed maneuvers
Lack of TMM since they just sit there and face-tank PPCs
A moment to appreciate the surge in Frog production lately.
Maybe I'm just late to the party and the algorithm is slugging me. Iunno.
Good stuff though. Thank you Froggo
It was a productive week...
Doing a Periphery campaign right now, and VTOLs are great bang for the buck for those kinds of empires. Far cheaper than mechs and maybe even more useful if their main goal is to mostly deal with poorly equipped pirates. That and Conventional Fighters, anyway.
Quite useful little things...
Even in 1988 the humble vtol had unprecedented reach and mobility even if they were incredibly frail. Fast forward to 1991 we picked up the new TROs and were blown away by the Yellowjacket. Holy cow did we love using that thing. The Hawk Moth came many years later when we were also into the MW clix Age of Destruction era. Solid video as always. Longtime subbie here :-)
Disrespect the VTOL at your peril. Thanks for watching! I appreciate it.
Oh yeh baby the Cavalry gotta say I'm a fan , keep them as safe as possible then swarm in for the crits . Gotta be the best VTOL . And no yelling at these choices
Hah!
The vehicle video and this VTOL video were great overviews. Would love to see more like this!
Glad you enjoyed it! More in the works...
On the table top, I’ve really enjoyed playing the balacs and the shun transport. They’re deadly in AS if ppl don’t bring any flak units
I like how they mix things up.
In MW5, the Igor variant armed with 2x AC/10 is the bane of my existence.
Would love more VTOL videos from you. Maybe one of these on Aerospace Fighters could be cool, too.
VTOLs are fun, but you need to move them fast and keep them at long range, or they will die.
ABM - Always Be Moving
Love the well worn TRO 3025 in your videos ! ( As well as the U on the dial!)
IMHO the Karnov should have been included. If you need to move infantry FAST in the early eras
it is the way ! In games where objectives are important it's extremely valuable.
The Ferret is great as well because of it's low buy in cost. Not only a cheap scout but if your opponent
fields Warriors the Armored Ferret is a pest that it just can't shake . A single MG doesn't mean much
unless it moves at 15/23 and it's outside of your firing arcs every time you
loose initiative.
Never underestimate a determined vehicle with a machine gun.
I always pondered putting an Arrow IV system in a VTOL for direct fire attacks at anything in line of sight. Probably wouldn’t make sense thematically though
I'm so looking forward to the new kickstarter, those vehicles look sweet!
Definitely.
That was excellent👏👏👏I didn’t know the Gossamer but, being a Raven fan, now I really want some. I’d love to see more on VTOLs, or other air assets.
Glad you enjoyed! Working on another tank video for next week.
Well until you can get the model, use something in leu of it, part of why I love BattleTech
The Gossamer goes hard on the nostalgia for me, it really feels like something that would have been part of Ring Raiders.
@@Takenmynameandmycat Ring Raiders! Now that takes me back!😆
Really tall, legless, scout mech. Love it!
What's not to love? 🤩
As Dune fans, my son and I pretend our VTOLs are Ornithopters.
That's fair.
I was thinking the weights were off but a 747 is around 180 tons empty.
I love VTOLs because they fit in well with my boom and zoom strategy. I hate VTOLs because their hit table is absolutely horrible. So you've got to keep them at their medium range, with full motion, or strictly as support vehicles.
ABM - Always Be Moving. :D
@@MechanicalFrog Boom and Zoom. I once saved an entire company from a Clan assault because I kept them running. By whatever luck, my opponent kept rolling one under what he needed to hit. I believe in maneuverability.
But look at that hit table. Its like half "Rotor"
The Peregrine has always had a place in my heart. Fast with SRMs and Machine guns. Can harass like no other in my mind. It is unfortunately quite fragile, but VTOL pilots often live fast and die hard in the inner sphere.
I've always had a fondness for machine guns in BT. I just wish they were slightly longer range...
@@MechanicalFrog I agree. I wish they had a longer range as well. I do find it hilarious though to machine gun boat a light or very fast medium and rush around blasting everything. Good Times. The ammo explosions are legendary.
My first use of a vetol, has scared me out of utilizing them. One LBX is all it takes. Sure it wasn’t downed by the lbx, but seeing how easily a little canister shot can strip a roater made me think.
Remember kids it isn't munchkining if you swarm the ac20 hunchback with warriors, it's just suppressive fire so that you can get your own mechs in position
Just so you know, you said "Longlevity" Instead of longevity. I'm sure you probably noticed as you went over this video, but that's probably my favorite new word from you.
Yeah it's an artifact from my childhood that I've never been able to shake. It sneaks in at odd moments.
Keep the great videos coming! 😁👍
Will do!
Using Advanced Combat Vee Construction Rules. I made the Combat Vee featured heavily in MW5.
Igor-77 (4 AC/2 6.5 Tons Armour) 50 Ton VTOL, 6/9 Movement.
Igor-99 (3 UAC2s W/ CASE with 8 Tons Armour) 50 Ton VTOL, 6/9 Movement.
fun.
The Igors with heavier Autocannons are a pain to deal with. Big guns flying high with thick armor for a VTOL.
I made a paper gossamer. It's probably close to twice the size of the mini. This thing can have a lbx10!? That's a fast way to track a Lance of tanks.
Sounds epic.
The Biggest let down on the much vaunted Yellowjacket is the 6/9 movement which isnt enough for a VTOL , I agree the hawk moth is better .
If given the choice, I will go with the Hawk Moth. The normal Gauss is just too much for a 30 ton VTOL.
I agree for the most part, but a Gauss Rifle does make the Yellowjacket a target that cannot be ignored, so they can be used to keep some of the heat off of your more important mechs and vehicles. In that situation they are either reducing damage to your other forces, or dealing significant damage to the enemy, either is a good thing.
Still I do love the Light Gauss as a weapon system, not as deadly but the range more than makes up for it.
@@Ishlacorrin I think I would prefer my VTOLs in the, "can be ignored some of the time," niche rather than the can't be ignored niche.
@@MechanicalFrog hmmm tbh a pair of lances of Yellow Jackets for their price and if the map is big enough, means they can out flank and get to the rear of enemy.
Forces the otherside to either water down their combat capability against your own Mechs, Vics & Infantry or risk 4 Guass Hugs.
@@KG-jm1zl Could cause some havoc, for sure.
Fire up the Airwolf theme, we're going to have fun giving people nightmares and lessons in respecting air power.
We used to watch that on a tiny black and white TV.
Now i want to put AP Gauss Rifles on a Gossamer... making it a Gaussamer. :D
Solid plan.
The Ferret is always underrated. I'm not aware of any faster VTOL (15/23), it can carry a squad of infantry (four can carry a whole platoon), and it can keep anything spotted for indirect fire, period. Your enemy simply CANNOT sneak up on you if you make intelligent use of Ferrets.
If you're ever tempted to use it's built-in MG, you're using it wrong.
Maybe as a glorious final stand... MG bullets bouncing off the Atlas's head...
@@MechanicalFrog If your Ferret is stuck for a glorious last stand, charge. Sure, it's only 12 points of damage (at most), but that's better than you'd get from the MG.
@@andrewszigeti2174 :D
We love mechanical frog 🐸
Good times had by all... Thanks for watching!
Reminds me of the Mighty Pirate
My fav VTOL that you didn't mention is the Karnov, both the transport and AC20 versions.
It's a good one!
This is where I found out the AC20 Karnov exists and I am immediately writing my next list
@@awordabout...3061 you are welcome.
Currently working on getting a squadron of Yellowjackets with C3s units and ER PPC swaps, lead by a Raven with a C3m and a couple of skulkers to act as hubs. the destructive potential of having good pilots/ gunners with that system is devastating if you can keep them on the back line
I should mention that I made a refit kit for the raven that added a TAG and the C3m at the cost of the SRM launcher and a change to a light PPC and an ER Small laser. It's fast, it's pokey, it tells everyone where you are, even if you're not in the network. Love it.
Mantis gang, best vtol.
Definitely a good one.
VTOL is affective
I like VTOLs, but their representation in BT games has usually been atrocious.
Looking at real world helicopters like the Apache, the Tiger, the Rooikat or the Crocodile, usually they hug the terrain, only peek out whe they have a target and then slide back into cover, so long rangenweapons like the AC2, the ER large laser and LRMs seem the best choice.
VTOLs, the Harrier is probably the best comparison, not sure how well the F-35 actuall fares.
Maybe there could be a VTOL peek and shoot rule...
@@MechanicalFrog There definitely should be. Plus there are those bits on top of some helicopters that allow them to peek over cover too.
An example is the Kiowa helicopter that featured it on top of the rotor mast. In the movie Fire Birds with Nicolas Cage it was shown
@@sim.frischh9781 Off the top of my head, I could see a rule that says if the VTOL is behind cover 2+ should be able to fire at a target. If they do, any return fire has a plus 3 to-hit modifier. If they don't fire, there's no LOS.
@@MechanicalFrog they would need one of those mast modules too to peek over the cover, then they would get a to hit bonus or something, same as if they had a C3 contact or such.
Seems practical.
@@sim.frischh9781 I brought it up on Twitter and a few people said that a 2+ would be more reasonable and there might need to be a requirement that the VTOL not be moving previously in the same turn. Otherwise, I think it could work enough for playtesting.
So it's not some sort of industrial abomination cobbled together from spare spaceship parts? I thought the sphere was incapable of manufacturing new mechs? And what kind of self-respecting mech pilot would let the air support steal all their glory? eh just sweep a laser across the sky until you hit it or maybe ask the local spacers to ram it with their shuttles
It would be neat to have the the dropship from Aliens or the jet hovercraft from Battlezone 98 as my air support. I might consider using it if it was flown by terminators who crash helis into human mechs so they can board and kill the pilot. Otherwise I have to ask what this realistic design is doing in my stompy robot game
Ferret 5 ton Inf transport cheep fast
Battletech roflcopter goes soysoysoysoy
Meh Vtols I'm so fringe it's all about my Nisos WiGEs
*Genuine confusion*
@@MechanicalFrog from the 3145 Capellan book , Wing in Ground Effect vehicle the Soviets where big on it in the day
the heli versions are useless..in the future, more vtols as jets are FAAAR more useful!!
In the real world, VTOL drones are going to be ubiquitous.