Your Klein meters' erratic behavior in frequency measurement mode is revealing the truth about the output waveform quality of most standby generators. It's actually quite distorted. It's more a question of filtering than a meter's sample rate, and the Fluke simply has better filtering. (Some meters also let you switch a filter in when you need it and take it out when you don't.) Attaching a scopemeter will prove quite interesting when the generator is on.
The Generac Guardian series generator specs claim 5% maximum total harmonic distortion (THD). But they don't list a maximum for any single harmonic. I suspect the Klein's 4kHz sample rate is "locking" onto one of the Generac's output harmonics and giving a false reading. For example, the 3rd harmonic of a 60Hz sine wave is 180Hz and the 4th is 240Hz, and it appears the Klein is trying to decide between these two values. For accurate Hz readings you need to consider how the meter sampling rate interacts with the true voltage waveform. (I.e., an ideal analog waveform versus a digitized waveform.) But other than the false reading, all of this is not a big deal. The fact that you get the correct Hz reading for utility power just means the utility is supplying cleaner power (i.e., less harmonic distortion) at your home. And the Fluke's faster sample rate just makes it less sensitive to 60Hz harmonics in this instance. It would be instructive to measure the Generac's output with an oscilloscope or a meter that specifically measures the different relative values of harmonic distortion.
Exactly. A digital scope or appropriate "graphing" meter (also considered a scope) would tell the tale. For those who are concerned with 240v, use a 40va hvac transformer and scope the nominal 24vac into a small load.
@@rupe53 Well then that says a lot about about the screwy frequency measurements. A modified squared wave will have high values of THD and often sensitive computer equipment won't like this. This is why high quality UPS backup equipment emphasizes "pure" sine wave output with corresponding low THD values. The Generac literature I looked at doesn't mention "modified square wave," so good to know to look carefully at the specs for the specific unit you are considering.
@@tomferrin1148 ... you'd be amazed at what a computer or other gear will run on these days because all of the power supplies convert AC to DC then regulate it for the internals. Remember, throughout the world we have everything from 105 up to 250 volts, and then 50 or 60 cycles. Read the data tags on your devices and learn. Motors are the exception that few talk about, although I have seen UPS systems that don't like really dirty power, then go dead from running the battery down because they switched off too soon. I saw that quite a bit about 12 -15 years ago then learned it was a common problem, depending on the brand.
@@greenidguy9292 If you are in Florida you hope for both but plan for one. Hurricanes can knock your power out for weeks! Of course the hurricane would likely knock out the gas lines as well so I know a lot of people in the more isolated areas will have a propane tank setup.
This was a great video. Tom did an amazing job not only explaining everything but also with his poise and camera presence. He is a natural, maybe he needs a side job in social media for Jefferson Electric.
Why were the wires from the generator wired to the bottom of the disconnect? Shouldn’t that of been the line? Then the load would go out to the EM lugs on the transfer switch?
Doc, I solved the final piece of the generator puzzle, yesterday. The Micro-Air Easy Start 368. Put one on every outdoor HVAC unit. No more lights flickering when the generator tries to keep up with the draw. You're welcome.
😢😢I recently had purchased two Klein Multi Meters, I’m very disappointed with your results. However, I have an older Craftsman that seems to work fine. My routine has been to check results across all three, I have had no issues, but I also haven’t worked with Generac. I will definitely check my portable generators and see what kind of results I get. Great Video, I’m glad to be aware of this anomaly!!!
Why buy 3 meters that you have to use all 3 to keep them honest dude…that should be your red flag. You’re using 3 mediocre meters to accomplish a task 1 good meter can do. I suppose I don’t know your professional, but as an apprentice electrician with 9000 logged hours I was always told “get the best meter you can afford, but once you get your journeyman’s, you get a fluke regardless, you’re going to be in charge of your crew.”
What I would like to see is a oscilloscope connected to the generator output to view the actual waveform. I'm guessing that there might be some harmonics and some distortion throwing the Klein meters off. The output of the generator is probably not as clean of a sine-wave as the one coming from the utility.
Klein is not alone with this problem, other mfgs have this issue too. The instruments sampling rate is certainly higher than 6k for both meters and the average DMMs is acceptable for ACV to at least 350Hz. Dont confuse counts with sampling rate. The funny reading on the klein is due to limitations on the DMM with signal processing specifically, filtering and crossover detection. The distortion present on the generator output is above what the meter can accommodate.
The Klein did better - it shows how bad the power quality is. The Fluke makes it look clean. You may as well not measure and just understand that it is 60Hz - if you don’t really care the harmonics are killing your measurements.
That generator had at least 10kw capacity left while testing so it would start a compressor, especially today's common scrolls. But if it is a problem on a psc compressor, Copeland Emerson has a "Securestart" or "CSS-32W" softstart for about $500 that reduces start surges to 1/3.
@@rj.parker ... you could also install a hard start kit (just a big capacitor) for a bunch less money and knock the inrush down at least 20%. BTW, one of the best ideas they came up with is that load-shed module. It locks the AC out for about 5 minutes, so you are not trying to start against high head pressure. Each AC unit is staged out after that in a similar fashion. The module monitors frequency and if the engine can't keep up, after a few seconds it will drop the load again, then wait 5 minutes. After three tries it will lock out for 20 minutes, then start the cycle again. The game plan on waiting 20 minutes is to allow enough time for certain other appliances to cycle off, such as an electric water heater or well pump. With a relay kit you can also control the electric heaters and such via that module. (module is strictly pilot duty, low voltage)
Thats a whole lot invested for a power outage… i live in the northeast and bought a 1000 dollar generator 15 years ago and used it maybe 3 times for 30 minutes
Thanks for taking the time to document DMM frequency measurement issues. I need to correct one point you have misunderstood: shieldcracker is correct; you have confused display count with sampling rate. 'Display count' is how many digits can be displayed to the user; 4000 on the Kleins, 6000 on the Flukes. NOT the frequency measurement capability... '6000 count' has nothing to do with frequency range or accuracy. BTW, a higher count display also does not always mean greater accuracy. These are all independent parameters. The Flukes are rated to 50KHz (not possible by 6000 'counts'), and Klein spec showed 500KHz. Mr K L
Generac installations are complex. The one installed on my mom’s house initially only provided full power on one leg. The other leg only had 70-80v that I remember. After a lot of testing with a multimeter and phone consult with Generac engineers, still no resolution. As a last resort, the tech pulled the logic board on the generator and plugged it back in firmly. Voila! All problems gone. The tech surmised the board had been jostled loose in shipping. He was beginning to doubt his multimeter but it was not the problem.
This guy makes me tense for some reason.. Either way, THD is the problem that the Klein is picking up.. It's dirty power, but that's just the way it is with that generator.. My Klein meter is for every day work.. The Fluke 87 is for the finer things.. 😁
I use a Fluke 99% of the time. When I use a borrowed meter (one was a Snap-On) I got stray readings from the fluorescent lights over my work bench. If you placed that same meter too close to a running engine it would get stray RF from the ignition. IOW, the display would show random numbers without the leads connected to anything. Never had that issue with a Fluke.
Back when GSM was the king of cell phone protocols Fluke would have issues if your phone was too close to the meter when a call came in. It would crash the meters or throw off the readings similar to what they are seeing with the Kleins here. Of course Fluke being Fluke, they fixed the issue pretty quickly and sent replacement meters (87Vs) to any customers affected by the interference. I wonder what the results would be if the Klein and the Fluke 117 were tested on a 50Hz grid and matching generator, like Australia. Would the Klein have the same problem? Would the Fluke start having issues? I have a Fluke 117 for home use and an 87V at the office for computers and electronics. Before I went Fluke I also tried Klein meters, but I need a near-instantaneous response time for continuity testing and the Kleins were pushing 0.5-1 second response times. That's fast...right up until you are probing 1,000 pins on some chip or connector looking for short circuits.
I spent a year running on Army SF-10, 10KW generators the lowest gasoline usage was at 75% of the generators rated load. Do you know the sweet spot on your gen set?
maybe RFI ingress via meter leads, proximity to the ignition system or noise from the electronics? It would be interesting to see the generators output on an oscilloscope and spectrum analyzer, both right at it and again a short distance away at the transfer switch. well clearly distance from it not the issue, being 160' across the house. lol, must be sampling rate and noise combined. does the meter have a manual range setting? it may or may not make a difference in reality.
just an observation, but at 160 feet away from the unit I doubt it will read stray ignition RF and anything in the house will be on gen frequency while running on gen, so what else could it be sampling?
@@tomthompson6412 Ah. And is the factory service manual easy to get? Or does Generac do the usual frustrating rent-seeking behaviors with that info? Great video.
Good video. A couple comments. 98 amps as measured was 98a at 120 V or about 12 KW. So that Generac had plenty of headroom left since it was about half loaded. Second, I believe I would have pulled out [an appropriate] oscilloscope or a pc connected storage picoscope [with differential inputs and appropriate x10 probes or battery operated equivalents] and actually looked at the waveform. The better diagnostic auto shops usually have a picoscope these days.
You have to be extremely careful suggesting an o-scope to measure mains *anything*, it's not as simple as just sampling a waveform. Most of the time an oscilloscope shares probe ground with chassis ground, which is connected to electrical ground. If you use a battery operated o-scope, you now have a floating ground with mains electricity, which is a bad idea. If you use a mains powered O-Scope, you have a condition that will cause a short as soon as you measure. If you use a ground breaker, that's no different than a floating ground, ergo a shock hazard...and you certainly don't want a floating ground with a picoscope connected to a PC because that USB ground connects to chassis ground too, same risk again. So...what do you do? There's something called a "differential probe" that measures the voltage on both inputsl, subtracts then down and feeds that to the oscilloscope to safely display mains voltage readings on the display. A very popular entry level one is made by Mcsig and I've had great luck with it.
@@NGinuity Yes you have to float the ground, use a battery operated scope or use a scope with differential inputs and x10 probes. Picoscope has the same capabilities using the right model and probes, up to 1000 vac. Just saying what I would do if I had the same concerns, primarily because waveform distortion would be the primary thing I would want to see. If perfection was needed, buying an inverter generator might be a solution but adds to cost and complexity.
@@rj.parker No, respectfully, you should not be advising anyone to *float* any ground on mains electricity measurements, and using a battery operated scope just means that there is potential for mains voltage to be present on the chassis (and a shock hazard). The only safe and proper way to measure it is with differential input *isolated from* ground, which is drastically different than *floating* a ground. Terminology matters here. The only model picoscope carries with differential input is the 4444 (although the 4225 and 4425 have isolated grounds, so that's something even if not the whole use case). Otherwise, the picoscope can only do that because of an added differential probe like I mentioned. You may know what you are doing and not conveying it in proper terminology, however, it's not being described in a manner that the average person can read and implement safely, that's all I'm saying.
According to Generac, any true RMS meter will work on that generator. To get the Hz reading, you were getting the engine would have to be around 18,000 RPM.
Awesome video! Question for Joel or Tom: how would a fire department or whomever shut power off to the house in an emergency? If they threw the main switch at the transfer panel, that would start the generator. I know the generator has a disconnect but that’s because of the 160 ft code so in many cases there wouldn’t be that disconnect. Thanks!
@@speednutsII ... as a fire instructor, I knew about the switch on the newer units, but I always taught guys to shut off the gas, which is always by the unit. When that happens, the unit may attempt to restart but it will never run. After a few crank cycles the control will lock out.
@@MaDuceRules Disconnects are required to be grouped but I guess this has an optional standby exemption. In 2020 they added the outdoor main disconnect, with these becoming so popular my guess code will require the disconnect to be grouped or electronic detection that breaker was manually tripped via auxillary contact
That disconnect is wired backward. In this instance, the generator is the source. It should have been wired to the top with the load (house) being on the bottom. NEC 404.6(C)
Ohhh Joel where do I begin😂 you know I love my testing. Power quality testing for the generator is useful obviously beyond just voltage, current and frequency and we we have lots of testing standards around that NFPA 99 and NFPA110 are also useful for emergency standby generators. Yes you will need to get rid of your Klein meters flukes are fine but I have also been telling you get a dedicated voltmeter I have flukes, meggers, gossen mettrawatt sand chauvin arnoux all with much better shielded power electronics, filtering and sampling rates.
@@ElectricProAcademy you are the man and I must say this series was so well done. The respect and mutual admiration you both have made this not only a great install but an opportunity to learn that’s a double return.
The frequency is directly proportional to the speed of the engine, which in this case its a 2 pole gen it runs at 3600 rpm. If you arent hearing a clear speed discrepancy, but you are seeing these large discrepancies in frequency, then it is your meter. You can hear the generator running at a constant speed. The controller also has a dealer menu that displays the nominal voltage, speed, and frequency. This is not an inverter generator its a pure sine wave.
I worked on these for 23 years and I wouldn't use the word "pure" to describe the output. Probably closer to a modified square wave. (edit: that was meant as a joke because older units could be fairly dirty power)
@@rupe53 Ok well Ive worked power generation for 2 decades myself, from 2.5kw gasoline and inverter generators to 2.5mw diesel 20 cylinder engines, and if you worked on these Generac air cooled you would know the output is pretty damn far from a modified square wave. Thanks tho genius
@@hwtans2717 .... you are right and I misspoke. Some of the older sets with poor speed regulation cold be 10 - 20% THD so while a bit choppy, certainly not a square wave. Sorry, as the brain gets distorted with old age. Been retired from big sets for many years at this point. Worked on systems up to one meg because I was the only tech with diesel under my belt when I started, but 80% of our customers were 15 - 50 Kw.
It's just a find range issue. The Klein is tracking higher frequencys inside the unclean waveform. If you would manually adjust the range it also should show the 60 Hertz
I do not like this type of transfer switch. No dwell in the switch from generator power to commercial power is bad for motors. All of my Onan transfer switches have the ability to pause the switch (dwell) in neutral for a few seconds to allow motors in HVAC and such to slow down to at least 70% RPM so that the reintroduction of power does not create out of phase issues.
Onan/Cummins also have switches without a pause, but they wait for the power to become something like 10 or 20% in phase. ASCO does the same. Not sure this one is waiting, but in a house on single phase power it probably isn't going to be to hard on equipment.
Would have been faster & safer if you just took readings from top of safety switch. Must be using the new & improved PPE while working at or on energized equipment. Yep that invisible PPE.
I always use FLUKE Especially if your life depends on it. Another tip : any router, ethernet switch, Cable TV box, Cable ethernet box, I recommend all internet and electronics on a dedicated UPS so power fluctuations are eliminated for that 15 - 30 seconds that power is loss till Generator powers up. You will lose internet and it’ll have to reboot. But if a UPS is added to your home electronics You’ll protect your equipment from surge spikes and loss of power. Your generator also access the internet via the cloud. --For that 15 - 30 seconds-- CyberPower EC850LCD Ecologic Battery Backup & Surge Protector UPS System, 850VA/510W, 12 Outlets, ECO Mode, Compact, Uninterruptible Power Supply
Ive been close to buying a Klein meter more than once but every time I do a deep dive I always feel theyre over rated, at least at this level of use - in this case it was true. When playing with these kind of voltages and with motors a fluke or similar is really the only way to go when doing commercial industrial work - after all your life or someone elses may well depend on that meter working correctly and safely.
Fluke meters are the best I have a small collection lol, 902, 1587fc, 787, 337, 376fc , used to main a UEI Phoenix and couldn't stand it, my every day carry is still the 902 but the 376fc has been pushing it's way in to more and more daily use for me
I'm not knocking klein, but fluke has a long and strong history of being reliable measurement kit and klein just doesn't have a history at all (as far as measurement. I know the company is older than dirt). Fluke is an industry standard in measurement in my opinion
Don't buy meters from a company that makes hand tools. Get yourself a Fluke. Going by POS Klien toy the frequency went from 60 to what around 28. A deaf person touching the generator could even pick up the only thing that could reduce frequency that much is if natural gas engine speed was reduced by over 50%.
Guess what… no one needs those in Germany… guess why… literally no power outages! Why? Because the power companies do one thing right… burry the powercables each and every time!
@@rupe53 No. And I'd never buy a new car unless I was wealthy. Also, not really same thing because if your power is out, so is everyone else's that might not be able to afford nice things, like a generator. And those people might also need an oxygen machine, or an air machine to force feed them air while they sleep, or need to refrigerate insulin they can't afford. My Mother has been through all of those things when the power failed. So I know. And back to the car thought, I am seriously considering selling the car I have. It just cost too much in maintenance, insurance, fuel, and every other driver on the road pissing me off to the point that I become enraged. Can't even blow the horn anymore without someone pulling a gun and blowing off my head. Don't wish for a power failure. Turn off your own power and do it that way. So many people's lives are disrupted and things can become dangerous fast when they have medical needs but can't afford nice and fancy things.
@@michaeljavert4635 ... You seem rather angry at the world because you are not in control of your own situation, and you are living beyond your means. I was in that position years ago, but I quickly learned I could do something about it, although it took years to see the results. Today I am retired and comfortable enough to not complain about it.
@@rupe53 It could be that I have the cancer and can't afford to do anything about it and I sit here in pain and suffer to death, or until I am in a coma waiting to die. I only watched the same thing happen to my Mother because she became poor when she retired after years of hard work and sacrifices. We aren't living beyond means, the greedy capitalistic Nazis are taking everything we have then charging us more when we don't have it to give them all at one time. You'd be angry too if you watched your Mother suffer and die before your eyes because the world took all her money away and couldn't afford to be diagnosed and treated in time. Lying in the bed, unable to walk or do anything for nearly a month, giving her Ativan and morphine every 4 hours per Hospice nurse that came by every few days, when it didn't have to be that way but it was because of greed. That MIGHT have something to do with it. Then you suggesting that I am living beyond my means... You should try living in a sh**hole house that a realtor told you didn't need any work on, because you had to sell your Mother's house that is beyond your means after she died. And all of this schlimazel is just ONE of the examples of the LIVING hell that was visited upon me since 2015. Then things started to get really bad. Also, I am not angry at you. It just irked me when the person in the video said he was hoping for a power failure. That would make a lot of people very uncomfortable and put them in a dangerous situation. There are MAIN breakers... Try not paying your electric bill for a month and a half, you'll get that wish. Then see what it's like when you don't have money to get it back on, or you have to use money for a grocery bill, to pay that bill. So either you have food, and no refrigeration, or you have refrigeration but no food. Biting irony !
⚠️ We encountered the IDENTICAL PROBLEM ! We only do generator electrical installations, actually we do everything BUT the gas supply connection. We still have 2 remaining Klein meters. We moved FROM Fluke to Klein based on our love of everything Klein (hand tools). We now have gone back to ‘old Reliable… Fluke. This is not being addressed by Klein and that is quite sad.
Forgot to mention.. we only install Generac. Surprisingly, the Klein meters work ok with our portable Honda inverter based gensets EU-2200i and EU-3000i.
Put this man on the payroll. Wealth of knowledge and great speaker!
It's like he's been taking notes on Joel's layout for videos lol
Your Klein meters' erratic behavior in frequency measurement mode is revealing the truth about the output waveform quality of most standby generators. It's actually quite distorted. It's more a question of filtering than a meter's sample rate, and the Fluke simply has better filtering. (Some meters also let you switch a filter in when you need it and take it out when you don't.)
Attaching a scopemeter will prove quite interesting when the generator is on.
Exactly correct. The Klein is telling a truth that the generator people do not want spoken. Fluke hides that.
The Generac Guardian series generator specs claim 5% maximum total harmonic distortion (THD). But they don't list a maximum for any single harmonic. I suspect the Klein's 4kHz sample rate is "locking" onto one of the Generac's output harmonics and giving a false reading. For example, the 3rd harmonic of a 60Hz sine wave is 180Hz and the 4th is 240Hz, and it appears the Klein is trying to decide between these two values. For accurate Hz readings you need to consider how the meter sampling rate interacts with the true voltage waveform. (I.e., an ideal analog waveform versus a digitized waveform.) But other than the false reading, all of this is not a big deal. The fact that you get the correct Hz reading for utility power just means the utility is supplying cleaner power (i.e., less harmonic distortion) at your home. And the Fluke's faster sample rate just makes it less sensitive to 60Hz harmonics in this instance. It would be instructive to measure the Generac's output with an oscilloscope or a meter that specifically measures the different relative values of harmonic distortion.
that unit doesn't have shaded poles so it's closer to a modified square wave than a true sinewave.
I am a bit surprised Tom didn't pull out an oscilloscope.
Exactly. A digital scope or appropriate "graphing" meter (also considered a scope) would tell the tale. For those who are concerned with 240v, use a 40va hvac transformer and scope the nominal 24vac into a small load.
@@rupe53 Well then that says a lot about about the screwy frequency measurements. A modified squared wave will have high values of THD and often sensitive computer equipment won't like this. This is why high quality UPS backup equipment emphasizes "pure" sine wave output with corresponding low THD values. The Generac literature I looked at doesn't mention "modified square wave," so good to know to look carefully at the specs for the specific unit you are considering.
@@tomferrin1148 ... you'd be amazed at what a computer or other gear will run on these days because all of the power supplies convert AC to DC then regulate it for the internals. Remember, throughout the world we have everything from 105 up to 250 volts, and then 50 or 60 cycles. Read the data tags on your devices and learn. Motors are the exception that few talk about, although I have seen UPS systems that don't like really dirty power, then go dead from running the battery down because they switched off too soon. I saw that quite a bit about 12 -15 years ago then learned it was a common problem, depending on the brand.
Tom doesn't need a new hot rod or car to restore...he just needs a good power outage!! Fun series of videos...really good stuff here.
Hey thank you for sharing this! Man you are thorough-and thank you for that; I'm learning a lot here! God bless, AL from CT
Thanks for the follow up. Good looking install.
Man, I love my Generac whole house generator. Good stuff
I like my utility power…
@@greenidguy9292 If you are in Florida you hope for both but plan for one. Hurricanes can knock your power out for weeks! Of course the hurricane would likely knock out the gas lines as well so I know a lot of people in the more isolated areas will have a propane tank setup.
This was thorough, informative, useful, and interesting.
Learned a lot, if you made more videos like these would be great!!
Good to know. I’ll have to check my meter now.
I have both , and for real , I will keep using my Fluke all the time , Klien is decent but I will invest in Fluke instead
The Fluke is being fooled, and the Klein is showing how bad the power quality is. So the Fluke hides this. The Klein did much better.
This was a great video. Tom did an amazing job not only explaining everything but also with his poise and camera presence. He is a natural, maybe he needs a side job in social media for Jefferson Electric.
Why were the wires from the generator wired to the bottom of the disconnect? Shouldn’t that of been the line? Then the load would go out to the EM lugs on the transfer switch?
I saw that also .Wires from the generator go to the line side and wires from the ats goes to the load side.
@@christopher20008 it’s wrong. It will work, but incorrect! Smh!
we already beat that to death in a prior video. At minimum he should make up new labels for the terminal strip.
@@rupe53 did he talk about it at all in either of the comments?
@@mcarroll598 ... not that I recall. Many comments, but no replies that I recall.
Doc, I solved the final piece of the generator puzzle, yesterday. The Micro-Air Easy Start 368. Put one on every outdoor HVAC unit. No more lights flickering when the generator tries to keep up with the draw. You're welcome.
😢😢I recently had purchased two Klein Multi Meters, I’m very disappointed with your results. However, I have an older Craftsman that seems to work fine. My routine has been to check results across all three, I have had no issues, but I also haven’t worked with Generac. I will definitely check my portable generators and see what kind of results I get. Great Video, I’m glad to be aware of this anomaly!!!
Why buy 3 meters that you have to use all 3 to keep them honest dude…that should be your red flag. You’re using 3 mediocre meters to accomplish a task 1 good meter can do. I suppose I don’t know your professional, but as an apprentice electrician with 9000 logged hours I was always told “get the best meter you can afford, but once you get your journeyman’s, you get a fluke regardless, you’re going to be in charge of your crew.”
Thank you all for being willing to share these videos!
What I would like to see is a oscilloscope connected to the generator output to view the actual waveform. I'm guessing that there might be some harmonics and some distortion throwing the Klein meters off. The output of the generator is probably not as clean of a sine-wave as the one coming from the utility.
Klein is not alone with this problem, other mfgs have this issue too. The instruments sampling rate is certainly higher than 6k for both meters and the average DMMs is acceptable for ACV to at least 350Hz. Dont confuse counts with sampling rate. The funny reading on the klein is due to limitations on the DMM with signal processing specifically, filtering and crossover detection. The distortion present on the generator output is above what the meter can accommodate.
I agree, it is obvious he misunderstood the specs on his meters.
The Flukes spec'd at 50KHz, and the one Klein I checked was spec'd at 500KHz.
The Klein did better - it shows how bad the power quality is. The Fluke makes it look clean. You may as well not measure and just understand that it is 60Hz - if you don’t really care the harmonics are killing your measurements.
U didn’t use a fluke that’s why your Klein failed. Great vid.
Did you all consider installing a softstart for the AC compressor to make the load easier on the Generator?
good idea if it's an older AC unit.
That generator had at least 10kw capacity left while testing so it would start a compressor, especially today's common scrolls. But if it is a problem on a psc compressor, Copeland Emerson has a "Securestart" or "CSS-32W" softstart for about $500 that reduces start surges to 1/3.
@@rj.parker ... you could also install a hard start kit (just a big capacitor) for a bunch less money and knock the inrush down at least 20%. BTW, one of the best ideas they came up with is that load-shed module. It locks the AC out for about 5 minutes, so you are not trying to start against high head pressure. Each AC unit is staged out after that in a similar fashion. The module monitors frequency and if the engine can't keep up, after a few seconds it will drop the load again, then wait 5 minutes. After three tries it will lock out for 20 minutes, then start the cycle again. The game plan on waiting 20 minutes is to allow enough time for certain other appliances to cycle off, such as an electric water heater or well pump. With a relay kit you can also control the electric heaters and such via that module. (module is strictly pilot duty, low voltage)
Brymen also makes a fantastic multimeter. Love my 869s, its my daily meter now. Replaced my Fluke.
Is it a modified sine wave or a pure sign wave generator?
modified
@@rupe53 it sounded like it was
Is it safe to drop a full load?
Thats a whole lot invested for a power outage… i live in the northeast and bought a 1000 dollar generator 15 years ago and used it maybe 3 times for 30 minutes
The small details will get you in the end.
exceptionally clear discussion of the freq issue you were "not" experiencing. Thanks so much
Thanks for taking the time to document DMM frequency measurement issues.
I need to correct one point you have misunderstood:
shieldcracker is correct; you have confused display count with sampling rate.
'Display count' is how many digits can be displayed to the user; 4000 on the Kleins, 6000 on the Flukes.
NOT the frequency measurement capability...
'6000 count' has nothing to do with frequency range or accuracy. BTW, a higher count display also does not always mean greater accuracy.
These are all independent parameters.
The Flukes are rated to 50KHz (not possible by 6000 'counts'), and Klein spec showed 500KHz.
Mr K L
thanks
Generac installations are complex. The one installed on my mom’s house initially only provided full power on one leg. The other leg only had 70-80v that I remember. After a lot of testing with a multimeter and phone consult with Generac engineers, still no resolution. As a last resort, the tech pulled the logic board on the generator and plugged it back in firmly. Voila! All problems gone. The tech surmised the board had been jostled loose in shipping. He was beginning to doubt his multimeter but it was not the problem.
Sir, you were only drawing approx 45 amps at 240 volts... Less than 50 percent load...
I had the same exact problem with my klein multimeter when I was measuring hertz in a generator install
Did you go buy a Fluke?
I have invested in Klein testers and meters. I would like Klein representative to chime their opinion here.
What's the Frequency Kenneth?
Automatic Generac load shedders for all 240v loads?
This guy makes me tense for some reason..
Either way, THD is the problem that the Klein is picking up.. It's dirty power, but that's just the way it is with that generator..
My Klein meter is for every day work.. The Fluke 87 is for the finer things.. 😁
A cheap amazon oscilloscope is a good choice for looking at UPS and generator power to get a good look at frequency and noise.
Thanks God this guy loves to talk a lot 😅 in a good way ton of information 👍
I'm not even installing a generator but love learning 😂
I use a Fluke 99% of the time. When I use a borrowed meter (one was a Snap-On) I got stray readings from the fluorescent lights over my work bench. If you placed that same meter too close to a running engine it would get stray RF from the ignition. IOW, the display would show random numbers without the leads connected to anything. Never had that issue with a Fluke.
Back when GSM was the king of cell phone protocols Fluke would have issues if your phone was too close to the meter when a call came in. It would crash the meters or throw off the readings similar to what they are seeing with the Kleins here. Of course Fluke being Fluke, they fixed the issue pretty quickly and sent replacement meters (87Vs) to any customers affected by the interference.
I wonder what the results would be if the Klein and the Fluke 117 were tested on a 50Hz grid and matching generator, like Australia. Would the Klein have the same problem? Would the Fluke start having issues? I have a Fluke 117 for home use and an 87V at the office for computers and electronics. Before I went Fluke I also tried Klein meters, but I need a near-instantaneous response time for continuity testing and the Kleins were pushing 0.5-1 second response times. That's fast...right up until you are probing 1,000 pins on some chip or connector looking for short circuits.
Well gee, thanks a lot, this video cost me, had to go buy a Fluke 117 I didn't realize I needed, lol
I spent a year running on Army SF-10, 10KW generators the lowest gasoline usage was at 75% of the generators rated load. Do you know the sweet spot on your gen set?
fuel consumption is in the manual for 50% and 75% load. I suspect the sweet spot is in that range.
maybe RFI ingress via meter leads, proximity to the ignition system or noise from the electronics? It would be interesting to see the generators output on an oscilloscope and spectrum analyzer, both right at it and again a short distance away at the transfer switch.
well clearly distance from it not the issue, being 160' across the house. lol, must be sampling rate and noise combined. does the meter have a manual range setting? it may or may not make a difference in reality.
just an observation, but at 160 feet away from the unit I doubt it will read stray ignition RF and anything in the house will be on gen frequency while running on gen, so what else could it be sampling?
Time for Tom to start his own channel! Why so cagey about the codes to activate dealer mode? Are they specific to each unit?
They are available in the factory service manual
@@tomthompson6412 Ah. And is the factory service manual easy to get? Or does Generac do the usual frustrating rent-seeking behaviors with that info? Great video.
@WardCo I have to purchase the factory service manual
Just a single code for all Evolution 2 controllers
I'll look it up
The dealer code is to access dealer menu
From main display
UP, UP. ESC, DN, UP, ESC, UP, ENTER
@@tomthompson6412 Bravo! Thank you, sir. You're a gentleman and a scholar!
Good video. A couple comments. 98 amps as measured was 98a at 120 V or about 12 KW. So that Generac had plenty of headroom left since it was about half loaded. Second, I believe I would have pulled out [an appropriate] oscilloscope or a pc connected storage picoscope [with differential inputs and appropriate x10 probes or battery operated equivalents] and actually looked at the waveform. The better diagnostic auto shops usually have a picoscope these days.
You have to be extremely careful suggesting an o-scope to measure mains *anything*, it's not as simple as just sampling a waveform. Most of the time an oscilloscope shares probe ground with chassis ground, which is connected to electrical ground. If you use a battery operated o-scope, you now have a floating ground with mains electricity, which is a bad idea. If you use a mains powered O-Scope, you have a condition that will cause a short as soon as you measure. If you use a ground breaker, that's no different than a floating ground, ergo a shock hazard...and you certainly don't want a floating ground with a picoscope connected to a PC because that USB ground connects to chassis ground too, same risk again.
So...what do you do? There's something called a "differential probe" that measures the voltage on both inputsl, subtracts then down and feeds that to the oscilloscope to safely display mains voltage readings on the display. A very popular entry level one is made by Mcsig and I've had great luck with it.
@@NGinuity Yes you have to float the ground, use a battery operated scope or use a scope with differential inputs and x10 probes. Picoscope has the same capabilities using the right model and probes, up to 1000 vac. Just saying what I would do if I had the same concerns, primarily because waveform distortion would be the primary thing I would want to see. If perfection was needed, buying an inverter generator might be a solution but adds to cost and complexity.
@@rj.parker No, respectfully, you should not be advising anyone to *float* any ground on mains electricity measurements, and using a battery operated scope just means that there is potential for mains voltage to be present on the chassis (and a shock hazard). The only safe and proper way to measure it is with differential input *isolated from* ground, which is drastically different than *floating* a ground. Terminology matters here. The only model picoscope carries with differential input is the 4444 (although the 4225 and 4425 have isolated grounds, so that's something even if not the whole use case). Otherwise, the picoscope can only do that because of an added differential probe like I mentioned. You may know what you are doing and not conveying it in proper terminology, however, it's not being described in a manner that the average person can read and implement safely, that's all I'm saying.
just a pointer... based on his test, he's probably combining leg readings to get that 98 amp total. The unit is rated at 24 Kw so 100 amps. (per leg)
@@rupe53 Exactly. He had less than 50 amps per leg which is half the load. About 11.7kw.
According to Generac, any true RMS meter will work on that generator. To get the Hz reading, you were getting the engine would have to be around 18,000 RPM.
Awesome video! Question for Joel or Tom: how would a fire department or whomever shut power off to the house in an emergency? If they threw the main switch at the transfer panel, that would start the generator. I know the generator has a disconnect but that’s because of the 160 ft code so in many cases there wouldn’t be that disconnect. Thanks!
There is a switch on the back of the generator to shut it down just for the case you described. It’s code.
@@MaDuceRules thanks makes sense. Good to know for houses that have these.
@@speednutsII ... as a fire instructor, I knew about the switch on the newer units, but I always taught guys to shut off the gas, which is always by the unit. When that happens, the unit may attempt to restart but it will never run. After a few crank cycles the control will lock out.
@@MaDuceRules good info and likely code compliant but running to other side of house seems unsafe.
@@MaDuceRules Disconnects are required to be grouped but I guess this has an optional standby exemption. In 2020 they added the outdoor main disconnect, with these becoming so popular my guess code will require the disconnect to be grouped or electronic detection that breaker was manually tripped via auxillary contact
That disconnect is wired backward. In this instance, the generator is the source. It should have been wired to the top with the load (house) being on the bottom. NEC 404.6(C)
Ohhh Joel where do I begin😂 you know I love my testing. Power quality testing for the generator is useful obviously beyond just voltage, current and frequency and we we have lots of testing standards around that NFPA 99 and NFPA110 are also useful for emergency standby generators. Yes you will need to get rid of your Klein meters flukes are fine but I have also been telling you get a dedicated voltmeter I have flukes, meggers, gossen mettrawatt sand chauvin arnoux all with much better shielded power electronics, filtering and sampling rates.
😂😂 I'm surprised it took you this long to reply!
@@ElectricProAcademy you are the man and I must say this series was so well done. The respect and mutual admiration you both have made this not only a great install but an opportunity to learn that’s a double return.
Did u hire this man?! ;)
The frequency is directly proportional to the speed of the engine, which in this case its a 2 pole gen it runs at 3600 rpm. If you arent hearing a clear speed discrepancy, but you are seeing these large discrepancies in frequency, then it is your meter. You can hear the generator running at a constant speed. The controller also has a dealer menu that displays the nominal voltage, speed, and frequency. This is not an inverter generator its a pure sine wave.
I worked on these for 23 years and I wouldn't use the word "pure" to describe the output. Probably closer to a modified square wave. (edit: that was meant as a joke because older units could be fairly dirty power)
@@rupe53 Ok well Ive worked power generation for 2 decades myself, from 2.5kw gasoline and inverter generators to 2.5mw diesel 20 cylinder engines, and if you worked on these Generac air cooled you would know the output is pretty damn far from a modified square wave. Thanks tho genius
@@hwtans2717 .... you are right and I misspoke. Some of the older sets with poor speed regulation cold be 10 - 20% THD so while a bit choppy, certainly not a square wave. Sorry, as the brain gets distorted with old age. Been retired from big sets for many years at this point. Worked on systems up to one meg because I was the only tech with diesel under my belt when I started, but 80% of our customers were 15 - 50 Kw.
Have a fluke 115 & 116. Also have a Klein. Fluke is just better. It also costs 4-5 times that of a Klein for a reason.
It's just a find range issue. The Klein is tracking higher frequencys inside the unclean waveform. If you would manually adjust the range it also should show the 60 Hertz
you may be onto something there, manually set the meter range if possible.
I do not like this type of transfer switch. No dwell in the switch from generator power to commercial power is bad for motors. All of my Onan transfer switches have the ability to pause the switch (dwell) in neutral for a few seconds to allow motors in HVAC and such to slow down to at least 70% RPM so that the reintroduction of power does not create out of phase issues.
Onan/Cummins also have switches without a pause, but they wait for the power to become something like 10 or 20% in phase. ASCO does the same. Not sure this one is waiting, but in a house on single phase power it probably isn't going to be to hard on equipment.
Would have been faster & safer if you just took readings from top of safety switch. Must be using the new & improved PPE while working at or on energized equipment. Yep that invisible PPE.
I always use FLUKE
Especially if your life depends on it.
Another tip : any router, ethernet switch,
Cable TV box, Cable ethernet box,
I recommend all internet and electronics
on a dedicated UPS so power fluctuations
are eliminated for that 15 - 30 seconds that
power is loss till Generator powers up.
You will lose internet and it’ll have to reboot.
But if a UPS is added to your home electronics
You’ll protect your equipment from surge spikes and
loss of power. Your generator also access the internet via
the cloud.
--For that 15 - 30 seconds--
CyberPower EC850LCD Ecologic
Battery Backup & Surge Protector UPS System,
850VA/510W, 12 Outlets,
ECO Mode, Compact, Uninterruptible Power Supply
Ive been close to buying a Klein meter more than once but every time I do a deep dive I always feel theyre over rated, at least at this level of use - in this case it was true. When playing with these kind of voltages and with motors a fluke or similar is really the only way to go when doing commercial industrial work - after all your life or someone elses may well depend on that meter working correctly and safely.
Fluke meters are the best I have a small collection lol, 902, 1587fc, 787, 337, 376fc , used to main a UEI Phoenix and couldn't stand it, my every day carry is still the 902 but the 376fc has been pushing it's way in to more and more daily use for me
Its no wonder why techs with this level of knowledge are getting nearly $300 per hour.
I'm not knocking klein, but fluke has a long and strong history of being reliable measurement kit and klein just doesn't have a history at all (as far as measurement. I know the company is older than dirt). Fluke is an industry standard in measurement in my opinion
It's a FLUKE 🤣
EC here. klien is not a good product for metering, i only use fluke.
You really thought a Klein meter was going to be better than a fluke? 😂
MQ power
I only trust fluke for a meter.
Don't buy meters from a company that makes hand tools. Get yourself a Fluke. Going by POS Klien toy the frequency went from 60 to what around 28. A deaf person touching the generator could even pick up the only thing that could reduce frequency that much is if natural gas engine speed was reduced by over 50%.
Are you an Engineer?
1.) Yes.
2.) No.
3.) It depends.
😉
Klein is a hand tool manufacturer, not a digital multimeter manufacturer.
Guess what… no one needs those in Germany… guess why… literally no power outages! Why? Because the power companies do one thing right… burry the powercables each and every time!
FLUKE it....if it works, it's a FLUKE
#tom4cohost
You need fluke bro
Klein: good stuff, but somehow they've gotten a Gucci image AND price.
yeah, unfortunately they aren't what they used to be
Fluke is the only stuff to use...there is a reason, it WORKS.
It must be nice to have enough money to hope for a power failure.
hey, if you bought a new car, you'd take it for a road trip, right? Same thing.
@@rupe53 No. And I'd never buy a new car unless I was wealthy. Also, not really same thing because if your power is out, so is everyone else's that might not be able to afford nice things, like a generator. And those people might also need an oxygen machine, or an air machine to force feed them air while they sleep, or need to refrigerate insulin they can't afford. My Mother has been through all of those things when the power failed. So I know. And back to the car thought, I am seriously considering selling the car I have. It just cost too much in maintenance, insurance, fuel, and every other driver on the road pissing me off to the point that I become enraged. Can't even blow the horn anymore without someone pulling a gun and blowing off my head.
Don't wish for a power failure. Turn off your own power and do it that way. So many people's lives are disrupted and things can become dangerous fast when they have medical needs but can't afford nice and fancy things.
@@michaeljavert4635 ... You seem rather angry at the world because you are not in control of your own situation, and you are living beyond your means. I was in that position years ago, but I quickly learned I could do something about it, although it took years to see the results. Today I am retired and comfortable enough to not complain about it.
@@rupe53 It could be that I have the cancer and can't afford to do anything about it and I sit here in pain and suffer to death, or until I am in a coma waiting to die. I only watched the same thing happen to my Mother because she became poor when she retired after years of hard work and sacrifices. We aren't living beyond means, the greedy capitalistic Nazis are taking everything we have then charging us more when we don't have it to give them all at one time.
You'd be angry too if you watched your Mother suffer and die before your eyes because the world took all her money away and couldn't afford to be diagnosed and treated in time. Lying in the bed, unable to walk or do anything for nearly a month, giving her Ativan and morphine every 4 hours per Hospice nurse that came by every few days, when it didn't have to be that way but it was because of greed.
That MIGHT have something to do with it. Then you suggesting that I am living beyond my means... You should try living in a sh**hole house that a realtor told you didn't need any work on, because you had to sell your Mother's house that is beyond your means after she died. And all of this schlimazel is just ONE of the examples of the LIVING hell that was visited upon me since 2015. Then things started to get really bad.
Also, I am not angry at you. It just irked me when the person in the video said he was hoping for a power failure. That would make a lot of people very uncomfortable and put them in a dangerous situation. There are MAIN breakers... Try not paying your electric bill for a month and a half, you'll get that wish. Then see what it's like when you don't have money to get it back on, or you have to use money for a grocery bill, to pay that bill. So either you have food, and no refrigeration, or you have refrigeration but no food. Biting irony !
That's because Klein meters are UEI and that means garbage... Fluke, Amprobe, or Fieldpiece for me.
Talks slower than Joel ..lol
⚠️ We encountered the IDENTICAL PROBLEM !
We only do generator electrical installations, actually we do everything BUT the gas supply connection.
We still have 2 remaining Klein meters. We moved FROM Fluke to Klein based on our love of everything Klein (hand tools).
We now have gone back to ‘old Reliable… Fluke.
This is not being addressed by Klein and that is quite sad.
Forgot to mention.. we only install Generac.
Surprisingly, the Klein meters work ok with our portable Honda inverter based gensets EU-2200i and EU-3000i.
Thomas Butts Panel? LMAO. Thomas & Betts.