Bearing at 8:19 is an Interstate-McBee, listed for a 14L Series 60. Bearing at 1:26, if I read it right (A8929670), is listed on one site for a 12L S60, and another site for an 11L thru 14L S 60.
Those lower mains were distorted from the excessive clearance letting the crank vibrate and pound the shell. When they're torqued in place there's quite a bit of tension or "crush" between the upper and lower bearings keeping them in place so they cant spin. When the caps were removed the distortion took over and sprung them out of shape. Bet the engine will feel smoother with the new bearings in there too.
I was gonna say something similar, I wonder if as the bearings wore material if they lost some spring tension as well. And being heat cycled all the time caused them to warp inward like that since they became thinner in the center of the bearing. Two bolt mains don't help either. I get why people love CATs so much because they are very over built. My N14 only has two bolt mains and they are known for having main bearing issues after an inflame if the clearances weren't checked. Two bolt Mains with no cross bolts allow the caps to move around more under load even though they are torqued to spec.
Seen many bearings loose like that, caused by excessive oil clearance or lugging. The pounding from the combustion pressure moves metal away from the center of the bearing and brings the outer edges in. Beat on the center of a piece of metal on an anvil and the ends will start to curl up. The crush when assembled still holds the shell tight to the ID of the bore. Thrust bearings like that are pretty normal, see them in DD, Cummins and John Deere.
I have also seen this in a sbc where the oil pump bolt was murdered on and distorted the main cap. It wasn’t quite so bad but it was warped and had an odd wear pattern.
11.1L ,12.7L and 14L displacements . Replace oil pressure relief . If Garbage Freight made crankshaft bearings , these would be them . Purchase a Milwaukee M-18 water pump , it pushes motor oil and diesel fuel well . International compound #2 also used for cylinder head bolts . I always disconnect the batteries . Glad to see you expanding in other areas .
The old bearings were from Temu. On a serious note, It's good that the driver watches the gauges. I've run Detroits my whole 24 year career and they are a good motor, but just like any they don't run long on low or no pressure.
I'm not POSITIVE that this is the cause of the destroyed #6 lower bearing, but I used to work rebuilding transmissions. This occurred mainly in automatic transmissions if there were missing ground straps. The transmission shaft (in this case the crankshaft) would seek ground thru the bearing, causing arcing and the same surface that you showed with the destroyed bearing. If it was let go long enough it would also pit the shaft that spun in the bearing.
Good idea, I know this is a major issue in container ships, where they have to use a grounding brush/slip ring to prevent this exact issue. It would also explain why it affected only the main bearings, as they are directly connected to the block (and thus to ground), while the rod bearings are only connected to ground through the piston rings, and thus have a very high resistance. Because electricity takes the path of least resistance, it would thus absolutely make sense that current only went through the main bearings.
Hey up honki I've heard of this many years ago but had only thought of roller bearings in gear box or prop shaft, what you're saying would sense thank you for the info
CAT and Cummins had s service bulletins about early bearing failures on trucks that hauled plastic pipes . Static electricity would build up seek ground through mains . Sounds silly but true . One bearing in that engine shows such erosion from electrolysis.
I have heard of that in industrial generators and such like, but I don't think that happened in this case. Looks like fatigue failure of the underlay to me. Quite a common failure mode in highly stressed engines, or when you run the engine with excessive bearing clearance, i.e., it's worn out.
Maybe im a little bias, but the DD Series 60 is right up there with the 3406E for reliability; electronic enough to be consistent, simple enough to repair
I have been in the diesel engine machine shop business for over 40 years. I think the 12.7 was the best engine ever put in a truck! We saw many with over a million miles before they had a major rebuild. I had an old Cat 1693 years ago that had a million and two hundred thousand on it.
Those detroit engines were a good engine for those that really watched their overall cost of operating. Decent fuel economy, relatively reliable and low repair cost. Won't blow you away like a cat or cummins, but you'll have some extra money in your pocket at the end of day.
I have seen static electricity fail babbet bearings before. However, the static has to discharge into some kind of gap - otherwise it just bleeds off... so the usual failure in a static failure is in the top bearing. Also I would change the harmonic balancer in that engine. A harmonic balancer failure will usually manifest itself at the rear part of the engine. The first thing that came to my mind was that the engine had sat up with antifreeze in the crankcase ... and then put back to work with the antifreeze damaged bearings for a while. On bigger 2 cycle engines we used to do lead readings to determine the condition of the slipper bearings and detect bent rods. The EMD engine (645 cu in per cyl) had a threaded hole in the middle of the piston that we could use to anchor the lead - we would use an old piston to form the lead and when the piston came below the air charge hole we would insert the lead into the piston and orient it so that is was parallel to the crankshaft. When the piston came back down we would pull it out and measure it with a micrometer. That way we could spot bad slipper bearings, bent rods, and rod bearing issues along with a couple of other things. When you see that owner again tell him he needs to go to Vegas and bet on some long shot... he is verrrrrry lucky that that engine didn't turn into a boat anchor.
That one was on the edge of a catostrophic failure. They are great engines, seen many with over a million miles on them. At last the 12.7 liter engines.
While you're in there, better check the o-rings in the oil pickup & transfer pipes. Those have been known to harden, crack & start sucking air causing low oil pressure too...
I used to be the 60 series tech for a small mom and pop shop and the only reason I can see that the mains were so wiped is they were definitely after market garbage bearings.
Yup, I have seen that main bearing failure a couple of times. Bearing wear and the resulting low oil pressure lets it have metal contact instead of an oil hydrodynamic wedge. Very cloes to the bearing sticking to the main journal and spinning the bearing. I bet it is over 250k miles on the bearings. After seeing the bearing, that is fatigue failure of the bearing. The electronic injection are easier on the bearings, and the newer DDEC that use multiple injectiins per firing event are even easier on the bearings. The mechanical injection was harder on the bearings, due to the single large volume injection. I once worked on a 6V92 in a Ford. The fellow bought it used with a supposedly completely rebuilt engine. When he got it home there was an oil leak. When he had his main truck 8V92 engine overhauled, one of the guys got to be friends with him. So he called to talk to my coworker about looking at it for him. I agreed to go with him. Turns out the perimeter seal had come out on one corner, letting oil leak. When we pulled the head I found a couple of cracks. When the 2 strokes get worn, the ring ends can get in an intake port as it stops rotating. Next start snaps it off and eventually the turbulent air picks it up and through a cylinder and out the exhaust. It then hits the end of a turbine blade and takes a small mouse bite out. By the time the engine gets rebuilt there is a bunch missing off all the turbine blades. Take the exhaust off at the turbine outlet and look in to check. He took the cracked head and damaged turbo back to the used dealer. They were mad he did not just bring it back to fix the oil leak. Two years later and 35,000 miles, he and his hired man were coming home with loads of hay to the farm. They had stopped for coffee and when they came out the 6V sounded fine, but did not make it to the scales 80 miles away. We went down and pulled the oil pan. The bearings were like copper gravel in the pan. The bearings did not turn, so the block was OK but the crank was scrap and the loss of oil cooling to the pistons turned the oil on the cylinder walls to like road tar. The head we had not replaced was cracked, probably all along. The shops insurance adjuster would not pay. Eventually he got promoted and his replacement signed a check real quick, but 2.5 years had gone by. Almost lost the farm and wife over it. He did get a new upgraded crankshaft and fully rebuilt engine when we finished it. All new bearings and another new turbo. The tradition was to do a bearing roll every 250,000 miles. When the used dealer rebuilt the engine they replaced the cylinder kits and rod bearings and lapped the valves. Never replaced the main bearings which allowed them to fatigue and flake away suddenly. Try torquing those in the bush by yourself.
For the pitted bearing, is it possible some one welded something on the engine but grounded to the frame. I worked on turbine engines, and had the have an exhaust nozzle welded, the welder thought it was smart to ground to one of the inlet fan blades, He welded every bearing in the engine.
Did the owner happen to mention how much HP that engine was making. Did you ask about his oil change interval that may be an interesting piece of information and kind of oil. Cummins will curl up rod bearings like that and spin the brg and throw the rod. The main relief is set at 120 and the regulator is set at 60 in the field disassemble the valves and add two 3/8 flat washers to the relief and one 3/8 flat washer to the regulator, and the owner has at least two more concerns slipper bearings and cam brgs 40wt oil might be a good choice, Josh good to see you back on the bottom again PS the S 60 only has ten pan bolts not the same as Cat
Never been inside a 60 Series Detroit either, always heard very good things about them and quite a few running over 1 million miles. Pretty interesting teardown. Did you plasti gauge any bearings? I have never seen a bearing insert fit loose in the cap like that, strange. The wear on some of those bearings seemed abnormal. Be interesting to see what the oil pressure is after the overhaul. Thanks for the Videos, Josh. Hopefully your wife and baby are doing well. Congratulations and enjoy your time together. They grow up quickly.
HEY DAD, welcome back. Ah this is a nice switch up having a JADE GRENADE to work on. The series 60, One of the best engines I ever got to drive, really enjoyed doing long haul with that engine in a coupla freightshakers I used to run.
Ive been into a few with bearings that way. Typically it is from either cavitation due to suction side orings or water in the oil normally from injector cup issues. Ive heard the electrolysis thing before but not in person
My buddies dad blew my mind when I watched him roll bearings on a series 60 using a copper nail in the oil journal with the edge bent up. Hillbilly suff 😂
That oil pickup tube part that says regulator is the pressure relief valve. It has a spring in it and it regulates oil pressure and if you’re ever having oil pressure issues check the pickup tube and verify that the spring in that is unobstructed/unbroken.
It's called "rolling mill effect", I've only seen it a few times in my 50ish years of working on engines. It's caused by high radial loading of the bearings, You will see it on the rod uppers, and the main lowers
Good to see you back, congrats and all that...could be harmonic's, jineez junk bearings, and or oil change interval's, and oil weight too, or all of the above..IMHO. good idea to change the relief valve and any o rings, rubber seals etc.while you're in there. Thanx again Josh. Congrats
0:51 I think they ran doubled rocker arms because this allowed them to have the intake and exhaust ports directly in line with each other. In the maritime world, the MAN Diesel 32/40, 32/44CR, 48/60, and 51/60 engines do the same thing but with pushrod valvetrains. This is in contrast to the C15 and X15 engines where the intake and exhaust ports are offset.
I personally use a heel bar to walk the main caps out, I’ve seen main bearings warp like that but I’ve never figured out why. I’ve seen lots of s60’s have pitting on the mains but never that bad, the only thing I’ve come up with is the trucks that sit for the winter (usually farmers) tend to have it worse then ones that run year round
It's been 35 years since I worked on a Detroit but if I remember correctly the thrust faces of the thrust main could be ordered separately if needed in different thicknesses. I think the reasoning was trucks with manual transmission used in the cities could put more wear on the thrust faces of the crank. Aside from Cat I've never seen a main bearing that only had thrust surface on the lower only. Good video
When torqued, that bearing works just like a normal bearing, free-standing it shrinks because the metal backing got too hot and got deformed. Crankshaft looks amazing
Thanks for the video. This one was very interesting. Sounds like some external things could use a check. Some prior history would shed some light as well. Take care.
I haven’t seen international compound in 25 years! Worked on lots of Detroit Diesel, back in the day, a fair amount of Series 60 in prototype phase. I worked in R@D.
In my experience, this is the situation you get immediately before it spins the bearing. Like seconds before it spins. My understanding of the problem is normal wear in the bearing gets to the point where under certain operating conditions, the clearance alows the journal to start to hammer on the bearing. This very efectively removes all the crush from the bearing, and then starts to pound it into funny shapes. Shortly, the bearing will become so distorted that it will contact the crank and create a hot spot. This makes the bearing grab the crank and spin in the housing. Your man had a lucky escape in my book. He was a very short trip away from destroying the block. 😮
I'd say the main bores have enlarged allowing the bearings to walk or twist, would need to resize and re-bore the mains to correct the bore size, that is what I would look for before installing new bearings. Just my 2 cents
If you get asked to work on any Cummins N14s in the future especially main bearings on one. Make sure to do some research before you tackle it cause they are known for spinning the mains after replacement due to a Block Fretting issue. Mostly just the main bearing journals get out of round and need to be line bored/honed during a rebuild. It's nice to see you working on other stuff, still love the CAT content but its always good to expand your skill and knowledge on other engines too.
Bearings got hot and lost their pre load. The crush is all that was holding them in. A few miles more and they would have spun. Looks like oil might have been fuel diluted at some time.
Interesting video. The theory from honkie247 below for the pitting seems to be a plausible theory. It would be interesting if you could let us know if he engine was well grounded. Keep the good stuff coming.
Josh, send a picture of the funky bearing to a bearing manufacturer. If you can get to an engineer they can probably tell you the exact failure method. Some people proposed electrical arcing, I don’t think you would have arcing without damage to the crankshaft.
We had Fairbanks Morse diesel generators on our Navy ship. We had bearings that looked like that. Ask your customer to check the ground straps as well. We had issues with our grounding straps and our mains looked just like that.
Coolant contamilated oil can be the cause of the missing material on the bearing. High temperatures can be the cause of the deformation BTW, oil the bearings up on both sides to install them , and rotate the cranckshaft if they don't want to go in in a certain position. The mains are often not perfectly aligned on the shaft
@@youtubeisawesome2487 You believe the upper half of the bore in the block stays completely dry, when you remove the old bearing? I believe it is better to reduce the friction when installing than risking to strip the outer coating. I don't know if this specific engine block is chamfered, but Scania, Volvo, Mercedes and Daf have no chaamfer, so stripping material is a larger risk than taking up space that is taken up unevenly anyway.
@@G33RTJEH there is a reason all engine manufactures instruct you to not use oil, lube or anything else on the back of the bearing, you cant fix stupid tho.
Used to see that bearing damage on BMC diesels decades ago, it was water in the oil caused it on those, often from rust/pitting through the wet liners at the bottom O ring line.
Regarding that main insert: I used to see that a lot. I attributed it to detonation and preignition-the pressure spike on the piston -from the too rapid burning of the mixture-would actually deform the insert and cause the ends to curl in when the caps were loosened. Bearing crush seemed to hold the inserts against the caps or the crank would have been wiped out. Most of those engines had manual transmissions and a lot of drivers frequently lugged their engines rather than downshift for hills or going around corners. A lot of pinging was heard!
100% correct. If you build high hp engines you know bearing crush.. Nothing about that bearing has anything to do with oil starvation. A crushed bearing like that comes from excess cylinder pressure caused by detonation, precognition, excess engine breaking at high rpm, but I would check your injection timing. A little to early and you will hammer the bearings, a little to late your injecting on the cylinder walls and not the bowls of the pistons.
Measure the width of the bearing at both parting lines as the center. I'm betting you will find the center to be wider. I'm wondering if the fuel is turned up and the engine is being severely lugged down beating the bearing flat and losing crush. Time 818: bearing number A-23532926 comes up as Interstate-McBee Lower Main Bearing I-M is a Cleveland, Ohio company that makes gaskets and remans fuel injectors.
Some John Deere engines like the 6081 use a near identical thrust main bearing set up. Amazing that thing never spun a bearing. I’ve never seen a bearing loose in the cap like that.
I believe he possibly had contamination in the oil, such as a bad water pump pushing antifreeze into the oil, I would do a oil sample and check it out, was doing a cam swap on a Mopar 360, the cam bearings were shot, pitted just like those mains, we flipped it over and the lower bearings were in bad shape also
I've seen that happen many times usually aftermarket bearings and a very often overlooked component the dampner never gets changed and torsional vibrations tears then up.
Ive seen that type of bearing damage on low mile cummins isx (400k) several times. Usually rods though. My theory was a combination of the thinner oil they run in newer epa engines and lower oil pressures especially at idle.
I’ve seen main bearings shrink/curl as a result of heat but it doesn’t look like those bearing got that hot and that pitting like wear is very strange. Nice vid
@mikeadams42 they are out there for all the brands and some aftermarket is good quality but it seems like Detroit is subject to the most low quality aftermarket parts
I have once on my test engine way back in 99. Engine had a bad harmonic balancer and started pounding the crankshaft in a vertical motion just slightly and twisted the main bearings just like you're seeing. He might have a leaking harmonic balancer it would show up in the back 2 bearings first. Detroit uses a liquid filled balancer.
There was actually 3 series 60 displacement engines. The first one was 11.1L then 12.7L which is most common, final one was the 14L. That one is definitely a 14L with the common rail electronically controlled injectors.
Check the block grounds I've seen that damage before online and the overwhelming consensus was block ground causing ark damage on the bearings runner up answer was old coolant intrusion repair leaving coolant in the oil more common on egr trucks
I experience that one sir recently when i do overhoul a C9 engine attached to 336 excavator same happened in your video but not that same big gap we saw this problem in con rod bearing no.5.
From all my Diesel experience I drop a lower cap and the bearing drops out of the cap and there is no information on the bearing shell or shells? Many questions come to mind. Where the correct STD bearings installed? Did someone use super cheap bearings? Thrust Bearing lower appears to be electrical erosion problem like the engine is missing a clean ground wire somewhere? I would not be surprised the sleeves might start leaking sooner or later?
I've seen it , was told it came from pounding , which streches the bearing . That ,,, is real close to broke crank . were the upper insert streched too ?
John Deere uses the same type of thrust bearings. They have a tool that wedges in the main cap bolt holes and attaches to a slide hammer to remove them.
Welcome, come back. I hope you and the family are doing well. I hope all is well with your newborn.
Bearing at 8:19 is an Interstate-McBee, listed for a 14L Series 60. Bearing at 1:26, if I read it right (A8929670), is listed on one site for a 12L S60, and another site for an 11L thru 14L S 60.
Those lower mains were distorted from the excessive clearance letting the crank vibrate and pound the shell. When they're torqued in place there's quite a bit of tension or "crush" between the upper and lower bearings keeping them in place so they cant spin. When the caps were removed the distortion took over and sprung them out of shape. Bet the engine will feel smoother with the new bearings in there too.
I was gonna say something similar, I wonder if as the bearings wore material if they lost some spring tension as well. And being heat cycled all the time caused them to warp inward like that since they became thinner in the center of the bearing. Two bolt mains don't help either. I get why people love CATs so much because they are very over built. My N14 only has two bolt mains and they are known for having main bearing issues after an inflame if the clearances weren't checked. Two bolt Mains with no cross bolts allow the caps to move around more under load even though they are torqued to spec.
Thats exactly what i was thinking too@@peterpower0495
Rebuilt several 60 series over the years
Seen many bearings loose like that, caused by excessive oil clearance or lugging. The pounding from the combustion pressure moves metal away from the center of the bearing and brings the outer edges in. Beat on the center of a piece of metal on an anvil and the ends will start to curl up. The crush when assembled still holds the shell tight to the ID of the bore.
Thrust bearings like that are pretty normal, see them in DD, Cummins and John Deere.
Was going to say the same. See similar in gasoline engines with detonation.
Hi sherrytop! Looks like you beat me to it.
I have also seen this in a sbc where the oil pump bolt was murdered on and distorted the main cap. It wasn’t quite so bad but it was warped and had an odd wear pattern.
When that happens aren't the upper rod bearings usually hammered as well?
"Shrinkage.....I was in the pool, I was in the pool!!!" G.C.
“do women know about shrinkage”?
Couple Degrees can make the difference between a couple thousandths or not 😂
George
“It shrinks?” “LIKE A FRIGHTENED TURTLE!”
It shrinks. Lol
11.1L ,12.7L and 14L displacements . Replace oil pressure relief .
If Garbage Freight made crankshaft bearings , these would be them .
Purchase a Milwaukee M-18 water pump , it pushes motor oil and diesel fuel well .
International compound #2 also used for cylinder head bolts . I always disconnect the batteries .
Glad to see you expanding in other areas .
The old bearings were from Temu. On a serious note, It's good that the driver watches the gauges. I've run Detroits my whole 24 year career and they are a good motor, but just like any they don't run long on low or no pressure.
I don’t think that’s exclusive to just Detroit… although I think PACCAR runs a bit lower than the rest of them.
There's some shops that'll put in the cheapest of the cheap bearings in.
The later Fitzgerald engines guys needed bearings within 200-300k miles.
We always called that assembly compound peanut butter. The parts counter always knew what we meant
A lot of high end racing engine builders use peanut butter as well!
That’s what the Bus Grease Monkey calls it too.
i was just going to say the same thing peanut butter
Yeah peanut butter Hahha that’s what my boss used to call it too Hahhaa
I'm not POSITIVE that this is the cause of the destroyed #6 lower bearing, but I used to work rebuilding transmissions. This occurred mainly in automatic transmissions if there were missing ground straps. The transmission shaft (in this case the crankshaft) would seek ground thru the bearing, causing arcing and the same surface that you showed with the destroyed bearing. If it was let go long enough it would also pit the shaft that spun in the bearing.
Sounds like a reasonable theory.
I was thinking the same, that it had to be something like electrolysis or possibly even chemical? The pitting is unique
Good idea, I know this is a major issue in container ships, where they have to use a grounding brush/slip ring to prevent this exact issue. It would also explain why it affected only the main bearings, as they are directly connected to the block (and thus to ground), while the rod bearings are only connected to ground through the piston rings, and thus have a very high resistance. Because electricity takes the path of least resistance, it would thus absolutely make sense that current only went through the main bearings.
Hey up honki I've heard of this many years ago but had only thought of roller bearings in gear box or prop shaft, what you're saying would sense thank you for the info
Thats incredible what a missing ground strap can do. Electrons don't fool around
CAT and Cummins had s service bulletins about early bearing failures on trucks that hauled plastic pipes .
Static electricity would build up seek ground through mains .
Sounds silly but true .
One bearing in that engine shows such erosion from electrolysis.
I remember reading an article a couple decades ago about main bearings having low service life {100,000 miles] hauling plastic pipe.
@@davidstewart8081interesting, I've never heard of that. But it wouldn't surprise me.
That's really interesting. I wonder if it affected the transmission and running gear too?
I have heard of that in industrial generators and such like, but I don't think that happened in this case. Looks like fatigue failure of the underlay to me. Quite a common failure mode in highly stressed engines, or when you run the engine with excessive bearing clearance, i.e., it's worn out.
@@Nudnik1 yes true I think the n14 service manual goes into how to do a reverse electrolysis procedure
Great job on the Detroit. Thanks for letting us tag along.
Maybe im a little bias, but the DD Series 60 is right up there with the 3406E for reliability; electronic enough to be consistent, simple enough to repair
100%
I have been in the diesel engine machine shop business for over 40 years. I think the 12.7 was the best engine ever put in a truck! We saw many with over a million miles before they had a major rebuild. I had an old Cat 1693 years ago that had a million and two hundred thousand on it.
Those detroit engines were a good engine for those that really watched their overall cost of operating. Decent fuel economy, relatively reliable and low repair cost. Won't blow you away like a cat or cummins, but you'll have some extra money in your pocket at the end of day.
I have seen static electricity fail babbet bearings before. However, the static has to discharge into some kind of gap - otherwise it just bleeds off... so the usual failure in a static failure is in the top bearing. Also I would change the harmonic balancer in that engine. A harmonic balancer failure will usually manifest itself at the rear part of the engine. The first thing that came to my mind was that the engine had sat up with antifreeze in the crankcase ... and then put back to work with the antifreeze damaged bearings for a while. On bigger 2 cycle engines we used to do lead readings to determine the condition of the slipper bearings and detect bent rods. The EMD engine (645 cu in per cyl) had a threaded hole in the middle of the piston that we could use to anchor the lead - we would use an old piston to form the lead and when the piston came below the air charge hole we would insert the lead into the piston and orient it so that is was parallel to the crankshaft. When the piston came back down we would pull it out and measure it with a micrometer. That way we could spot bad slipper bearings, bent rods, and rod bearing issues along with a couple of other things. When you see that owner again tell him he needs to go to Vegas and bet on some long shot... he is verrrrrry lucky that that engine didn't turn into a boat anchor.
That one was on the edge of a catostrophic failure. They are great engines, seen many with over a million miles on them. At last the 12.7 liter engines.
While you're in there, better check the o-rings in the oil pickup & transfer pipes. Those have been known to harden, crack & start sucking air causing low oil pressure too...
I used to be the 60 series tech for a small mom and pop shop and the only reason I can see that the mains were so wiped is they were definitely after market garbage bearings.
There are many cheap, kits from overseas that people sell, there are only a couple after market companies I would consider.
Nice to see you posting again :-)
I missed your videos, first one ive seen in over a year. Glad your back.
As usual Josh. Great video!!
Yup, I have seen that main bearing failure a couple of times. Bearing wear and the resulting low oil pressure lets it have metal contact instead of an oil hydrodynamic wedge. Very cloes to the bearing sticking to the main journal and spinning the bearing. I bet it is over 250k miles on the bearings.
After seeing the bearing, that is fatigue failure of the bearing. The electronic injection are easier on the bearings, and the newer DDEC that use multiple injectiins per firing event are even easier on the bearings. The mechanical injection was harder on the bearings, due to the single large volume injection.
I once worked on a 6V92 in a Ford. The fellow bought it used with a supposedly completely rebuilt engine. When he got it home there was an oil leak. When he had his main truck 8V92 engine overhauled, one of the guys got to be friends with him. So he called to talk to my coworker about looking at it for him. I agreed to go with him. Turns out the perimeter seal had come out on one corner, letting oil leak. When we pulled the head I found a couple of cracks. When the 2 strokes get worn, the ring ends can get in an intake port as it stops rotating. Next start snaps it off and eventually the turbulent air picks it up and through a cylinder and out the exhaust. It then hits the end of a turbine blade and takes a small mouse bite out. By the time the engine gets rebuilt there is a bunch missing off all the turbine blades. Take the exhaust off at the turbine outlet and look in to check. He took the cracked head and damaged turbo back to the used dealer. They were mad he did not just bring it back to fix the oil leak.
Two years later and 35,000 miles, he and his hired man were coming home with loads of hay to the farm. They had stopped for coffee and when they came out the 6V sounded fine, but did not make it to the scales 80 miles away. We went down and pulled the oil pan. The bearings were like copper gravel in the pan. The bearings did not turn, so the block was OK but the crank was scrap and the loss of oil cooling to the pistons turned the oil on the cylinder walls to like road tar. The head we had not replaced was cracked, probably all along. The shops insurance adjuster would not pay. Eventually he got promoted and his replacement signed a check real quick, but 2.5 years had gone by. Almost lost the farm and wife over it. He did get a new upgraded crankshaft and fully rebuilt engine when we finished it. All new bearings and another new turbo.
The tradition was to do a bearing roll every 250,000 miles. When the used dealer rebuilt the engine they replaced the cylinder kits and rod bearings and lapped the valves. Never replaced the main bearings which allowed them to fatigue and flake away suddenly.
Try torquing those in the bush by yourself.
For the pitted bearing, is it possible some one welded something on the engine but grounded to the frame. I worked on turbine engines, and had the have an exhaust nozzle welded, the welder thought it was smart to ground to one of the inlet fan blades, He welded every bearing in the engine.
Cool never even thought of that
@@malachicookston9191 That was a rather expensive mistake. Complete engine tear down, inspect and replace all bearings, those are all roller bearings.
Great point!!!
Did the owner happen to mention how much HP that engine was making. Did you ask about his oil change interval that may be an interesting piece of information and kind of oil. Cummins will curl up rod bearings like that and spin the brg and throw the rod. The main relief is set at 120 and the regulator is set at 60 in the field disassemble the valves and add two 3/8 flat washers to the relief and one 3/8 flat washer to the regulator, and the owner has at least two more concerns slipper bearings and cam brgs 40wt oil might be a good choice, Josh good to see you back on the bottom again PS the S 60 only has ten pan bolts not the same as Cat
Never been inside a 60 Series Detroit either, always heard very good things about them and quite a few running over 1 million miles. Pretty interesting teardown. Did you plasti gauge any bearings? I have never seen a bearing insert fit loose in the cap like that, strange. The wear on some of those bearings seemed abnormal. Be interesting to see what the oil pressure is after the overhaul. Thanks for the Videos, Josh. Hopefully your wife and baby are doing well. Congratulations and enjoy your time together. They grow up quickly.
HEY DAD, welcome back. Ah this is a nice switch up having a JADE GRENADE to work on. The series 60, One of the best engines I ever got to drive, really enjoyed doing long haul with that engine in a coupla freightshakers I used to run.
Ive been into a few with bearings that way. Typically it is from either cavitation due to suction side orings or water in the oil normally from injector cup issues. Ive heard the electrolysis thing before but not in person
My buddies dad blew my mind when I watched him roll bearings on a series 60 using a copper nail in the oil journal with the edge bent up. Hillbilly suff 😂
I believe there is a tool that does essentially the same thing.
Yes there is or make one yourself! Keeps the beari gs from being damaged! Smooth crank operation everytime!
I would use a flattened cotter pin.
Brass brake rivet ,,, !
@@carlcarlamos9055 Super easy tool to make. Made my own with a #6 piece of solid copper wire!👍
That oil pickup tube part that says regulator is the pressure relief valve. It has a spring in it and it regulates oil pressure and if you’re ever having oil pressure issues check the pickup tube and verify that the spring in that is unobstructed/unbroken.
Also the way you get the caps off is just like you were doing, wiggling and a couple gentle taps in both directions.
It's called "rolling mill effect", I've only seen it a few times in my 50ish years of working on engines. It's caused by high radial loading of the bearings, You will see it on the rod uppers, and the main lowers
Good to see you back, congrats and all that...could be harmonic's, jineez junk bearings, and or oil change interval's, and oil weight too, or all of the above..IMHO.
good idea to change the relief valve and any o rings, rubber seals etc.while you're in there.
Thanx again Josh.
Congrats
0:51 I think they ran doubled rocker arms because this allowed them to have the intake and exhaust ports directly in line with each other. In the maritime world, the MAN Diesel 32/40, 32/44CR, 48/60, and 51/60 engines do the same thing but with pushrod valvetrains. This is in contrast to the C15 and X15 engines where the intake and exhaust ports are offset.
I personally use a heel bar to walk the main caps out, I’ve seen main bearings warp like that but I’ve never figured out why. I’ve seen lots of s60’s have pitting on the mains but never that bad, the only thing I’ve come up with is the trucks that sit for the winter (usually farmers) tend to have it worse then ones that run year round
It's been 35 years since I worked on a Detroit but if I remember correctly the thrust faces of the thrust main could be ordered separately if needed in different thicknesses. I think the reasoning was trucks with manual transmission used in the cities could put more wear on the thrust faces of the crank.
Aside from Cat I've never seen a main bearing that only had thrust surface on the lower only. Good video
I use my rolling head pry bar handles in the main cap bolt holes, grab both, and rock forwards and back, while squeezing the handles together.
good video. i wonder if the mains were a cheap off brand ? That sure was some funky looking stuff.
When torqued, that bearing works just like a normal bearing, free-standing it shrinks because the metal backing got too hot and got deformed. Crankshaft looks amazing
Bearings made from Chieeseium.
Thanks for the video. This one was very interesting. Sounds like some external things could use a check. Some prior history would shed some light as well. Take care.
That number 2 assembly compound, nickname for that stuff is "peanut butter", due, I guess, to the appearance and consistency of it.
Detroit alumeum and brass. Dab now imports bearings then repackaged them. In bellefontaine Oh Punkel dregg
I haven’t seen international compound in 25 years! Worked on lots of Detroit Diesel, back in the day, a fair amount of Series 60 in prototype phase. I worked in R@D.
In my experience, this is the situation you get immediately before it spins the bearing. Like seconds before it spins.
My understanding of the problem is normal wear in the bearing gets to the point where under certain operating conditions, the clearance alows the journal to start to hammer on the bearing. This very efectively removes all the crush from the bearing, and then starts to pound it into funny shapes. Shortly, the bearing will become so distorted that it will contact the crank and create a hot spot. This makes the bearing grab the crank and spin in the housing.
Your man had a lucky escape in my book. He was a very short trip away from destroying the block. 😮
I'd say the main bores have enlarged allowing the bearings to walk or twist, would need to resize and re-bore the mains to correct the bore size, that is what I would look for before installing new bearings. Just my 2 cents
Big green top dd I loved one I had...pulled and good fuel milage...
If you get asked to work on any Cummins N14s in the future especially main bearings on one. Make sure to do some research before you tackle it cause they are known for spinning the mains after replacement due to a Block Fretting issue. Mostly just the main bearing journals get out of round and need to be line bored/honed during a rebuild. It's nice to see you working on other stuff, still love the CAT content but its always good to expand your skill and knowledge on other engines too.
Always enjoy your videos Josh 👍🏻🏴
God bless you and have a blessed day today 🙏
Bearings got hot and lost their pre load. The crush is all that was holding them in. A few miles more and they would have spun. Looks like oil might have been fuel diluted at some time.
I've always heard the 4 stroke 60s were pretty good for their time. Not sure when they stopped production but gotta be getting up in age now.
Nice to see you baack on board 😊
Interesting video. The theory from honkie247 below for the pitting seems to be a plausible theory. It would be interesting if you could let us know if he engine was well grounded. Keep the good stuff coming.
Josh, send a picture of the funky bearing to a bearing manufacturer. If you can get to an engineer they can probably tell you the exact failure method. Some people proposed electrical arcing, I don’t think you would have arcing without damage to the crankshaft.
We had Fairbanks Morse diesel generators on our Navy ship. We had bearings that looked like that. Ask your customer to check the ground straps as well. We had issues with our grounding straps and our mains looked just like that.
On the nunber 6 main you dont have enough wiggle room so what i do is slide the bolts halfway out then tap towards the side back and forth
Coolant contamilated oil can be the cause of the missing material on the bearing. High temperatures can be the cause of the deformation
BTW, oil the bearings up on both sides to install them , and rotate the cranckshaft if they don't want to go in in a certain position. The mains are often not perfectly aligned on the shaft
I was thinking the same, very reason drag car guys don't run coolant ..
oil (lube) takes up space if you do that you overcrush the bearing into the crank,
@@67bajabuilder they don't run coolant because the gycol ruins track prep and is slippery if something happens.
Not related to bearings.
@@youtubeisawesome2487 You believe the upper half of the bore in the block stays completely dry, when you remove the old bearing? I believe it is better to reduce the friction when installing than risking to strip the outer coating.
I don't know if this specific engine block is chamfered, but Scania, Volvo, Mercedes and Daf have no chaamfer, so stripping material is a larger risk than taking up space that is taken up unevenly anyway.
@@G33RTJEH there is a reason all engine manufactures instruct you to not use oil, lube or anything else on the back of the bearing, you cant fix stupid tho.
Cool to see you working on a 60 series! I've always wondered about your opinion on them. Thats all our shop works on along with the detroit dd15's.
Used to see that bearing damage on BMC diesels decades ago, it was water in the oil caused it on those, often from rust/pitting through the wet liners at the bottom O ring line.
YOU ARE A GREAT TECHNICIAN 😊😊😊
Welcome back!
Regarding that main insert: I used to see that a lot. I attributed it to detonation and preignition-the pressure spike on the piston -from the too rapid burning of the mixture-would actually deform the insert and cause the ends to curl in when the caps were loosened. Bearing crush seemed to hold the inserts against the caps or the crank would have been wiped out.
Most of those engines had manual transmissions and a lot of drivers frequently lugged their engines rather than downshift for hills or going around corners. A lot of pinging was heard!
100% correct. If you build high hp engines you know bearing crush.. Nothing about that bearing has anything to do with oil starvation. A crushed bearing like that comes from excess cylinder pressure caused by detonation, precognition, excess engine breaking at high rpm, but I would check your injection timing. A little to early and you will hammer the bearings, a little to late your injecting on the cylinder walls and not the bowls of the pistons.
Measure the width of the bearing at both parting lines as the center. I'm betting you will find the center to be wider. I'm wondering if the fuel is turned up and the engine is being severely lugged down beating the bearing flat and losing crush.
Time 818: bearing number A-23532926 comes up as Interstate-McBee Lower Main Bearing I-M is a Cleveland, Ohio company that makes gaskets and remans fuel injectors.
Always change the oil pump as well . The mighty series 60 is awesome
Caustic compound in the oil. Caps go on with the upper bearing tang aligned with the lower bearing tang.
Some John Deere engines like the 6081 use a near identical thrust main bearing set up. Amazing that thing never spun a bearing. I’ve never seen a bearing loose in the cap like that.
I believe he possibly had contamination in the oil, such as a bad water pump pushing antifreeze into the oil, I would do a oil sample and check it out, was doing a cam swap on a Mopar 360, the cam bearings were shot, pitted just like those mains, we flipped it over and the lower bearings were in bad shape also
Thats Detroit "peanut butter" used many a can of it. Bearing material fatigued and flaking away, somebody built it with cheap parts
Or turned the fuel way up and lugged the motor down way low.
Love the black rain.
Thanks for the video. Nice content.
07:38 - Is that an example of fretting ?
not really fretting is two metal parts that rub leaving a rough surface at the mating areas, can be very light pitting.
My best guess, maybe the crankshaft was vibrating ever so slightly in the bearings, causing cavitation with the oil? Bout all I can think of
I've seen that happen many times usually aftermarket bearings and a very often overlooked component the dampner never gets changed and torsional vibrations tears then up.
Please do a video of an inframe on an S60 as well as a DT466. Great content !
Ive seen that type of bearing damage on low mile cummins isx (400k) several times. Usually rods though. My theory was a combination of the thinner oil they run in newer epa engines and lower oil pressures especially at idle.
I’ve seen main bearings shrink/curl as a result of heat but it doesn’t look like those bearing got that hot and that pitting like wear is very strange. Nice vid
If that bering looks like that then the camshaft bearings are gone also
Chromie on an impact?? Dude your a bad boy!!
Wasn't even my socket lol 😆
Welcome to the world of cheep aftermarket Detroit parts
Not just Detroit, Cummins is subjected to bs aftermarket parts. It’s bit my boss a couple times, since he’s too cheap to buy Cummins parts.
@mikeadams42 they are out there for all the brands and some aftermarket is good quality but it seems like Detroit is subject to the most low quality aftermarket parts
5:38 congratulations on the baby hope you are sleeping ok😅
Wow those bearings look terrible. Good job you are replacing them 👍👍👍
I have once on my test engine way back in 99. Engine had a bad harmonic balancer and started pounding the crankshaft in a vertical motion just slightly and twisted the main bearings just like you're seeing. He might have a leaking harmonic balancer it would show up in the back 2 bearings first. Detroit uses a liquid filled balancer.
fluid filled dampers go hard after about 10-15 years......really bad news for cranks.
Maybe rock the truck back and forth in gear to relieve pressure on the thrust bearing?
Cant explain the twist in the bearings, but those bearings are beyond their intended service life.
Yeah buddy the Quinns are good sockets! I don't use mine as much as you but they have held up.
It wasn't my socket
@ ha ha fair enough. It got the job done
There was actually 3 series 60 displacement engines. The first one was 11.1L then 12.7L which is most common, final one was the 14L. That one is definitely a 14L with the common rail electronically controlled injectors.
Thank you for the video, Josh. It was an interesting job, even with two people.
Man i love these old detroits only thing i didnt like is the egr systems on the later ones
Did customer say why he pulled main cap off in first place and what did oil filters look like
He has low oil pressure, thought I said that in the video, but maybe I didn't.
@@AdeptApe You did.
Also the three piece thrust bearing was more common in britian then
I’ve saw them like that a few times and mainly on Detroit’s. Been told it was a mix of heat, lack of lube, debris, on the verge of spinning, etc
John Deere had involvement in the design of the series 60. The 12.7 series 60 is a great engine.
Check the block grounds I've seen that damage before online and the overwhelming consensus was block ground causing ark damage on the bearings runner up answer was old coolant intrusion repair leaving coolant in the oil more common on egr trucks
I experience that one sir recently when i do overhoul a C9 engine attached to 336 excavator same happened in your video but not that same big gap we saw this problem in con rod bearing no.5.
Nice video Josh
From all my Diesel experience I drop a lower cap and the bearing drops out of the cap and there is no information on the bearing shell or shells? Many questions come to mind. Where the correct STD bearings installed? Did someone use super cheap bearings? Thrust Bearing lower appears to be electrical erosion problem like the engine is missing a clean ground wire somewhere? I would not be surprised the sleeves might start leaking sooner or later?
Series 60 and it's little brother Series 50 are great engines.
I've seen it , was told it came from pounding , which streches the bearing . That ,,, is real close to broke crank . were the upper insert streched too ?
Detroit the best engine to make money they just keep going
John Deere uses the same type of thrust bearings. They have a tool that wedges in the main cap bolt holes and attaches to a slide hammer to remove them.
john deere was half of the orginal design team
@youtubeisawesome2487 depends on who you talk to what the extent of that partnership was
My 4.0 jeep YJ engine looked just like that when I finally replaced it lol 1:22
Mack E7 engines also have a full round thrust bearing
You should try working on a Paccar engine next. The mains are really fun on those😊