@@Patrick-cs6qi who settles for adequate?? "Did you marry a good woman?" No, she's adequate. "How's the job? You happy with ypur pay?" No, but it's adequate.
I have used many flaming river steering boxes. The tugs at a major airport used solid non-pnumatic front tires. Very unforgiving and blew out the castings on the OEM steering boxes. We would order a pallet of fr steering boxes at a time. They worked FINE and were a fair quality part. As I was the mechanic changing the broken boxes I had no issues after several dozen boxes. Many things can affect bump steer, shortened steering arms, bent steering arm, raised or lowered steering box position due to frame repair ( accident) or a combination of all parts ( tollerance stack up ).
Good on you Kiwi, getting her to change back to the stock setup, no more binding and it will be a lot safer. 👍 When you think about it, it was Kinda scary, that she was driving it like that.
I just bought a 65 Corvair with a Flaming River steering box in it. The box is a so-called bolt in replacement for the stock box. The car had a full 1/2 turn of the steering wheel slop in the box. I took it apart, and couldn't really see any reason for the slop. I adjusted it, but it still has more play in it than the old, zillion mile GM box I replaced it with. Several people with the same box in their Corvairs had a similar problem. Not sure I would trust Flaming River with ANY steering component now!
Holy Cow! I have never seen that amount of bump steer. I built a Shelby Cobra kit car years ago and dove in head first into suspension geometry including bump steer. Now, it's not difficult to look at a system and see what can be done to correct it. I mean simple things like rack movement or re-positioning tie rod end connections. But this Mustang! Holy Cow! (again). You're right to go back to the original system. I know that the flaming river rack could be made to work but it would include radical suspension changes and lots of relocation. Likely moving the tie rods to in front of the axle. A rocket science project for sure.
Brought an xm ute years ago DU997 nice bright orange show ute 289 5 speed supra but had serious bump steer due to using xb falcon stub axles for the disc brakes they pushed the top and bottom ball joints too far apart replaced with original stubs and machined adapter to use xb rotors and used hz holden brake calipers because the were just two bolts straight through to mount on the backing plate bolted to the original 4 holes the original drum brake backing plate bolted to. Then had to do a recert. Which was the hardest and most expensive part of the fix lol typical kiwi we say it how it is no sugar coating. 😁🇬🇸👍
Having heard the Flaming River name a million times in car books I probably would have thought it was good stuff . Not a good reason now is it . Thanks this did open my eyes to things .
I get that they can't always do things perfectly and bring parts to market at a saleable price. But this kit kit should have been scrapped at the prototype stage
My 67 with a K-Code engine in it has a totally stock suspension, all new and it corners and is fun to drive. Kiwi is a fantastic top of his game to recognize all these problems. I have great respect for his mechanical ability.
From Australia here, with a 67 fastback, and Just went through the same thing with a total control products. power rack and pinion steering conversion. The car was wandering all over the road. Bump steering. It was just woeful to drive and felt like I was taking my life in my own hands every time I drove the car. my suspension and steering specialist said if I had to come to him first he would have said don't waste your money and go for a power borgeson box. The geometry just isn't right on all these racks. Exactly what you've said in the video you are 100%, right! Didn't help that the work shop that installed it had the sway bar binding on the shock mounting bracket, or wheel alignment was non existent, or the tie rods where in the wrong location. Live and learn.
Not yet, we got it so it is safe to drive now, but still very notchy and the turning radius is reduced, also not a fan that the rack becomes the cross member. When the budget allows will swap out. The rack was 6.5k aud. Plus fitting. So budget is thin at the moment.
Recirculating ball steering can be very precise. One thing that helps a lot is to ensure where the steering box mounts to the chassis is very strong and won't deflect.
Sometimes your videos are short but I really learn a lot on whatever classic car comes into your shop especially Mustangs for repairs or fixing problems. Great channel you have, i really enjoy it, very educating!
Great video Kiwi, unbelievable how much toe in there was on that Flaming River crap. I would have been scared to death to drive the thing. Nice install on the other one mate.
I went totally off the deep end analyzing the stock suspension. After my mods I got the toe change down to 3mm with full suspension travel. There were a lot of things that influenced it. Namely, pitman arm height,aftermarket arm design, steering box wear or rebuild, idler arm position. + Caster increases tow change as does negative camber curve.
It's great hearing someone tell the truth all the time. You're a great role model for all of us in the classic car trades. Keep up the great work Kiwi 👍
Ķiwi, over the years I've learned that stock is the way to stay in chassis setups. A few improvements like shocks , springs, and bushings are OK, but no major aftermarket junk. It hardly ever rides properly. Great video.Have a good day buddy.
I never thought of checking like that but I haven't tried to a line a front end up my uncle gave me gage stick he used to line them up.Thanks for the good info.😊
Bump steer in Mustangs & Falcons was always an issue. Simple fix.....Dropped mine 2 inches, 3/4 negative camber & a total of 6mm, or 1/4 inch of toe in. The key is aligning Pitman arm & the idler dead parallel with the frame rails with the car at ride height.
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 Yes...I spent a lot of time sorting mine & then I met an alignment tech who knew his Fords. The 2 inch drop gave it about 1 degree of downward rake at the front. Set it up exactly as mentioned.....handled like it was on rails. On a twisty road it shamed a lot of more sophisticated cars.
HAving a bind in your steering is maddening!! I had a bind in my 2006 F150 Steering linkage. The u-joint was seizing up from corrosion, I lubed it and it helped for a while but i had to replace the shaft that connected column to the rack to fix it for good.
I had a flaming river manual rack on my 2012, and it had seemed okay. Different chassis for sure, though. I ended up taking it off the car and going to hydraulic PS because I was injuring myself trying to turn the car when it was sitting still.
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 going through construction on a 37 plymouth sedan here in nz. Low volume certification process ect, this info is awesome and we'll explained. Thanks again mate!
Holy mackerel Kiwi, had the same issues with after market suspension too! Serious bump steer, dangerous like all the mustang 2 crap( pinto). Everyone asking why I didn't change the front suspension on my 54 Bel-Air? Good enough for a Corvette till 60s, and easy rebuild. Good on ya restore it to stock. They road racer those cars. Engineers in white lab coats.😅❤
I was working on a c3 corvette that was scary to drive and the cause was the flaming river rack. The steering shaft had to go almost straight down from the firewall to the rack so that the u-joints would bind and the toe changed with bumps just like this. I have a video of it on youtube. The fix was to replace it with borgeson box and stock steering parts.
Great video!!! I'm wondering if the flaming river rack was mounted too high, relative to the road surface. I'm unsure if that would have corrected the steering shaft joint issues. It does seem like (maybe?) it would have put the rack's joints at an angle closer to the control arms' angle, which could have improved the bump steer. Maybe not...
On cars with the tie rods behind the axle centerline, that rack should be raised, not lowered. That said, I think that would make the steering shaft angles worse (I think). I was thinking along the same lines as you, just the opposite direction.
Excellent video and solution. An observation. If the difference between the rear of the wheel to the front was 5 inches, then the toe in (or out, depending on which side was greater) would have been 2 1/2 inches. Still horrendous though! Did the buyer have any comeback on the seller?
Have you tried EPAS yet? I just put a 2010 Corolla electric power steering in the Flaming River column in my '36 Chevy and it works great. You do "get to" cut your polished stainless column in half though.
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 A kit?! That's cheating! I got mine out of a wrecking yard for $130 and a pair of "fabrication" clamps off ebay for $55, a few feet of #8 wire and got er done. I did the same thing to my daughter's '63 Nova but, had to keep the column shift for the automatic. THAT was some engineering.
So I have a big brother to this vehicle, a 1969 Ford Torino with the interesting rams and such steering system. My thought was to go to a rack and pinion setup, but now, not sure. recommendations as the darn things love to leak like a sive and seems to not have a precise feeling going down the road.
I understand your flame of Flaming River Kiwi, but could this have possibly been an installer error or the wrong parts used more than a manufacturer error? The new parts worked out great though, nice job!
@@GNaron I didn't look into it, I'm just going by what Kiwi reported. Either way the problem existed so it was either a poorly engineered part (which I double Flaming River would market), or a faulty installation. The important thing where steering, suspension and brakes are concerned is to remedy the problem so the car doesn't go out with a potential safety issue lurking.
Great video - thanks, are the Borgeson boxes a relatively easy certification in NZ? i have manual steering now and tossing up between a borgeson or RRS rack and pinion. thanks
Keep in mind that no steering components can have any welding in/on them. Some Borgeson box's have the mounting plates welded to them. What sort of car do you have. If any of the RRS bracketry is welded that will be an automatic fail in NZ
Its a 1970 with 4v 351c. I think the latest Borgesons are no longer welded so hoping they should be pretty straight forward. A friend has the RRS on his mustang and is certed, it looks like a nice bit of kit but my preference is to stay as close a possible to stock (hence the borgeson).
The Borgeson mustang boxes are cast now so you're good there. One thing though, when I took my old man's mustang back compliancing failed me on the Borgeson rag joint that comes with the conversion because it part of it was welded. Had to take it out and use a universal joint! The cert guy was an ass though. All rag joints have the flange welded to the center even factory ones 🙄
Stock mustang steering of that era was actually pretty tight and responsive, it used an external booster "ram" which had two little hoses that hung down a little below the car. I wonder if that flaming river kit is even made for a mustang?
Maybe I missed it in the earlier video but do we know what precipitated the owner to replace the stock steering in the first place? It would have been a costly change so what were they trying to fix?
It was a factory power assist steer car so it was probably leaking. I don't mess with those and upgrade to a Borgeson power box. On paper the R&P upgrade is a good one, sadly "on paper" just didn't translate into the real world in this case due to poor execution on the part of the manufacturer.
I’m hoping for the same. I have a 69 Fairlane with TCP coil over conversion, love it! However I’d like to make the steering as responsive as the suspension; looking at RRS as well. They appeared well engineered for the Firds, bolting in while still allowing adjustments to limit bump steeer. I’m considering the Borgeson box but truly want the tighter ratio of the rack. I’ve inquired to Kiwi as well, I’ve watched a number of his videos and greatly value his content, as opinion
Looks like it needs a wider rack so the pivot points on the tie rods and lower control arms match. If the car had the correct rack, it would drive fine.
im sure ford spent more time & money in R & D than any aftermarket company...!.."most" stock componets...will do the job 4 a car that is used for "mostly" a street or daily driver..!..drive'n a car with a lot of bump steer is "not" plesant...!...way to go Kiwi...the costomer should be really happy...!..good vidio..!
Ideal scenario is to have tie rods maintain the same angle as control arms....in a perfect world anyway. You just showed the world my Valiant wheel alignment technique 😅😂
Scratching my head and thinking..... Would installing the Flaming River tie rod ends under the steering knuckles rather than over them help the bump steer dimensions?
Possibly it could have reduced it but unlikely to an acceptable level. Then you still had the steering shaft universals binding from the too severe angle they were working through. Time to cut and run as they say
Unless you want to go road racing and engineer the steering and suspension from the ground up the stock style stuff works fine. You can always get a quicker ratio box that bolts right in. No brainer IMO.
I've installed a few Flaming River racks, never had such an issue..I never did a Mustang conversion, but the Chevy trucks I've done were spot-on..I've got one of their manual racks in my own 'stang (it's a '97 that originally had a power rack, not a conversion) and it works as it should. Anyone with experience wouldn't even consider installing a rack with that much difference in tie rod/a-arm length...which leads me to think this isn't the part that FR supplies in their kit..either it was shipped in error or some hack installed whatever he could get..
@@zrxdoug He show quite a bit of it on the other video of car. The dead give away it the FR doesn't use tie rods on 66 mustang, the rod ends screw directly the rack.
Man you killed me, I have the flaming river rack on my 74 corvette. I’ve been working on it for 10 years and it’s not done and I haven’t noticed the toe in you showed but I do have the binding of the steering because of the 🎉ujoints. I actually removed metal from the joints to try to minimise the binding. I paid a fortune for that thing when I bought it. Oh well I’ll figure out something.
Hey, Kiwi, there is a bare metal (with blue door) car in the background. Is it an old Sunbeam Alpine? Or possibly a Daimler SP250? Do you have a video of it? Looks like it could be a cool build.
Looking at this conversion I wonder if the problem is not with the conversion but with the original installation. From what I can tell, the outer tie rod ends were installed incorrectly on the conversion. They are on top of the steering arm. Look at the original setup and you'll see the outer tie rod ends connect to the bottom of the steering arm. Putting them on top of the steering arm will put the ball joint center much too high and give the bumpsteer issue you are getting.
I take it the shop that installed that kit didn't botch the steering column modification? I have had a couple early mustangs, and a corvette I had to just get a new column as well as the box when removing aftermarket racks.
That's a tough business to be in. Most of those cars were off the road by mid 1980's. Someone shoe shines them and people dry when you uncover 60 years of poor work ethics and stripped threads as well as rust. They think the cars are better shape than the one they stopped driving in 1977. A restoration shop is a storage facility waiting for parts and don't see the ROI like a flat rate shop does per hour. THESE PEOPLE DESERVE MORE MONEY FOR FIXING THE MISTAKES OF OTHERS. Been there, done that and moved on to make a [decent] living.
From the looks of the undercarriage, I think the previous builders did a much better job putting this Mustang together than the other messes you show us. There does not appear to be any oil leaks. Maybe they did not know about the issues with the rack and pinion conversion and trusted that the aftermarket kit could be a plug and play swap.
@paulhare662 LOL I'm doing a single to dual bowl master swap on my 65 and I'm trying to tie in to the rear hard line at the fire wall. Trying to flair the line in the car with the headers in place in killing me. That said I'll remove the whole line before that header comes off lol
Damn, and i guess three and that was giving it some. Thats a lot at least to an non-car guy who only watches YT. I use to be all into working on my cars. Until i figured out i wasnt mechanically inclined. Didnt take auto-shop in HS took vacuum forming plastics.
Wow that alignment looked terrible. That combined with the binding UJ would have a person thinking that the whole rack is mounted at least 2” too low. The drag link being a good 2” higher than the rack reinforces that. I’d also hazard a guess that it’s nigh on impossible to mount the rack higher. Improved production looks to have been the best answer
I could understand if someone not knowing what they where doing, pulled the parts out of a junk yard and did the install. I've fixed that nightmare before. This catastrophe has a couple of people to hold accountable. The manufacturer and the installer. Installer should have known it wasn't right and sent it back. Letting the manufacturer know it's not right. Good job doing the right thing!
I am asking, i don't know if it would matter, and probably not make up the difference, but was the rack at the center of its travel while the wheels were straight on the ground? PS, im a big fan of my borgeson in my Mopar.
Maybe their tag line should be "everywhere but straight under brakes". My first FWD car was a 2 litre laser XRi. Great little car but it suffered from bump and torque steer more than my previous RWD vehicles. Only thing it ever failed a WOF on was a number plate light out. A few years ago I heard that a number of imported muscle cars were being failed at the inspection stage because they had certain aftermarket suspension parts fitted that were OK and madein the USA. I always thought American made stuff was superior until I saw some of it. Our WOF system may be derided and sometimes over the top - I just finished repairing some mild surface rust on a friend's Mazda rear floor. If you are building a performance car though, the parts you use should make the car better and not unsafe or make it perform worse.
some countries get fairly pedant about the stuff being stock certified that's on a car mods wise. a lot of them are very anti-modifications to power etc too. well, usa is as well it's just that nobody seems to care and it's not enforced at all.
@@lasskinn474 imagine driving this mustang hard on a wet, twisty road. Turn left and the loaded right wheel is trying to turn not quite as left as the left tyre is. The opposite would happen turning right. Wear on the inside tread of the tyres would also be excessive as well as extra wear on the steering components. Terrible set up but not the worst out there by a long shot.
Basically what has happened is the tie rod on the rack and pinion are too short. I have set back rack and pinion twice and they were measured both times they were different length. This is avery common issues with reman rack and pinion. Solution is to get longer tie rod ends. Dont adjust the tie rod with the wheels planted on the ground,it binds the steering,keep the front wheel so they are touching. Center you steering wheel,line it from the center of the rear wheel to the front,then measure front edge of the rim,and the rear edge of the rim,then divide by 2,and then adjust with the wheel so the front is slightly towed in by a 16th.
OF COURSE KIWI WOULD SCARE HIS CUSTOMERS IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION😅! 🤣🤣 I think you explain this great! And you did the right thing. 👍
Stock has more engineering behind it than most people realize. I don’t understand the need for wholesale changes. But I’m funny that way.
You're not alone
My brother-in-law was an engineer for Ford. Not impressed by OEM engineering
I don't get it either. The stock steering setup of these cars are adequate. Why change it?
@@Patrick-cs6qi who settles for adequate??
"Did you marry a good woman?" No, she's adequate.
"How's the job? You happy with ypur pay?" No, but it's adequate.
My daddy always told me, “the blokes that made it, know more than you my boy”
I have used many flaming river steering boxes. The tugs at a major airport used solid non-pnumatic front tires. Very unforgiving and blew out the castings on the OEM steering boxes. We would order a pallet of fr steering boxes at a time. They worked FINE and were a fair quality part. As I was the mechanic changing the broken boxes I had no issues after several dozen boxes. Many things can affect bump steer, shortened steering arms, bent steering arm, raised or lowered steering box position due to frame repair ( accident) or a combination of all parts ( tollerance stack up ).
Good on you Kiwi, getting her to change back to the stock setup, no more binding and it will be a lot safer. 👍 When you think about it, it was Kinda scary, that she was driving it like that.
That's the thing, she wasn't driving it because she didn't like how it drove.
Good fix Kiwi.. 👍
@@stevesadusky8634 thanks man!
While watching the first video I was thinking it's fine as long as you don't drive it much, but that's a fun car to drive if it's driving, right.
I just bought a 65 Corvair with a Flaming River steering box in it. The box is a so-called bolt in replacement for the stock box. The car had a full 1/2 turn of the steering wheel slop in the box. I took it apart, and couldn't really see any reason for the slop. I adjusted it, but it still has more play in it than the old, zillion mile GM box I replaced it with. Several people with the same box in their Corvairs had a similar problem. Not sure I would trust Flaming River with ANY steering component now!
You know🤔the name flaming river lends well for abbreviations 🫢that one’s a laugh riot just waiting..
how is that even possible if there wasn't like a pin broken off. did you tear it down to see what was up with it?
@@lasskinn474 Yes, but I didn't remove all the recirculating balls. I suspect that is where the play is.
Great and simple explanation of bumpsteer. I really learned a lot, thank you Kiwi!!!!
Wow, with that geometry it had to of steered like a shopping 🛒!
Ya had to pay attention!!
Holy Cow! I have never seen that amount of bump steer. I built a Shelby Cobra kit car years ago and dove in head first into suspension geometry including bump steer. Now, it's not difficult to look at a system and see what can be done to correct it. I mean simple things like rack movement or re-positioning tie rod end connections. But this Mustang! Holy Cow! (again). You're right to go back to the original system. I know that the flaming river rack could be made to work but it would include radical suspension changes and lots of relocation. Likely moving the tie rods to in front of the axle. A rocket science project for sure.
Brought an xm ute years ago DU997 nice bright orange show ute 289 5 speed supra but had serious bump steer due to using xb falcon stub axles for the disc brakes they pushed the top and bottom ball joints too far apart replaced with original stubs and machined adapter to use xb rotors and used hz holden brake calipers because the were just two bolts straight through to mount on the backing plate bolted to the original 4 holes the original drum brake backing plate bolted to. Then had to do a recert. Which was the hardest and most expensive part of the fix lol typical kiwi we say it how it is no sugar coating. 😁🇬🇸👍
Having heard the Flaming River name a million times in car books I probably would have thought it was good stuff . Not a good reason now is it . Thanks this did open my eyes to things .
Nicely clear for non engineers Kiwi, good to hear a call out to a brand to "😊straighten out"
I get that they can't always do things perfectly and bring parts to market at a saleable price. But this kit kit should have been scrapped at the prototype stage
It never ceases to amaze me how many people leave the flywheel covers off!
It's a lot🤷🏼♂️🤦
Doing good work here educating people and making cars safe.
Jesus Chrysler !!
That's quite a dramatic change !!
Very!!!
My 67 with a K-Code engine in it has a totally stock suspension, all new and it corners and is fun to drive. Kiwi is a fantastic top of his game to recognize all these problems. I have great respect for his mechanical ability.
From Australia here, with a 67 fastback, and Just went through the same thing with a total control products. power rack and pinion steering conversion. The car was wandering all over the road. Bump steering. It was just woeful to drive and felt like I was taking my life in my own hands every time I drove the car. my suspension and steering specialist said if I had to come to him first he would have said don't waste your money and go for a power borgeson box. The geometry just isn't right on all these racks. Exactly what you've said in the video you are 100%, right! Didn't help that the work shop that installed it had the sway bar binding on the shock mounting bracket, or wheel alignment was non existent, or the tie rods where in the wrong location. Live and learn.
Did you switch to a Borgeson box?
Not yet, we got it so it is safe to drive now, but still very notchy and the turning radius is reduced, also not a fan that the rack becomes the cross member. When the budget allows will swap out. The rack was 6.5k aud. Plus fitting. So budget is thin at the moment.
Well done again Kiwi!
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Wow, That is why it was so hard to Drive in your Last Video !
Yes, exactly!
Good work! Just the thought of the straight shank bolts in the tapered steering knuckles was enough to make me say no way to Flaming river!
Recirculating ball steering can be very precise. One thing that helps a lot is to ensure where the steering box mounts to the chassis is very strong and won't deflect.
Unfortunately the chassis rail flex's quite a bit on the early mustangs. They added a torque box in 67 that helped a lot
Is this what they mean when they say welcome to the world of hotrodding with aftermarket parts.
Yeah it kinda does 😏
Good video and information for someone building a first gen mustang.
It will be fine with just a borgeson box and factory stuff.
Agreed!!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 but ay? I’m still running the Eaton pump and ram in my 63.5😋love the one finger steering..
Sometimes your videos are short but I really learn a lot on whatever classic car comes into your shop especially Mustangs for repairs or fixing problems. Great channel you have, i really enjoy it, very educating!
Thanks Kiwi, I learned a few things about steering geometry today!
Happy to help!
Well caught Kiwi.
Great video Kiwi, unbelievable how much toe in there was on that Flaming River crap. I would have been scared to death to drive the thing. Nice install on the other one mate.
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Always, thumbs up, Kiwi!
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 Yes, sir!
Good to watch ya Subs / viewers goin up too . good job
Your the man supa kiwi,Very good spotting love your show
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Looks like a primary factor in some of those meme videos of Mustang control fails while exiting car events!
I went totally off the deep end analyzing the stock suspension. After my mods I got the toe change down to 3mm with full suspension travel. There were a lot of things that influenced it. Namely, pitman arm height,aftermarket arm design, steering box wear or rebuild, idler arm position. + Caster increases tow change as does negative camber curve.
It's a science all of own !!!
I'm constantly amazed that someone with a few thousand dollars thinks they can improve on a design the manufacturer spent a billion dollars designing.
It's great hearing someone tell the truth all the time.
You're a great role model for all of us in the classic car trades.
Keep up the great work Kiwi 👍
I appreciate that!
This is good quality information. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
I watch to learn: And I learned important points this time around. Thanks for the excellent lesson in some suspension basics.
Good information
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Ķiwi, over the years I've learned that stock is the way to stay in chassis setups. A few improvements like shocks , springs, and bushings are OK, but no major aftermarket junk. It hardly ever rides properly. Great video.Have a good day buddy.
I never thought of checking like that but I haven't tried to a line a front end up my uncle gave me gage stick he used to line them up.Thanks for the good info.😊
Is it possible they installed the wrong year rack or suspension parts ?
Bump steer in Mustangs & Falcons was always an issue. Simple fix.....Dropped mine 2 inches, 3/4 negative camber & a total of 6mm, or 1/4 inch of toe in. The key is aligning Pitman arm & the idler dead parallel with the frame rails with the car at ride height.
Yeah ya just need an alignment tech that will do as he's told right😉👍
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 Yes...I spent a lot of time sorting mine & then I met an alignment tech who knew his Fords. The 2 inch drop gave it about 1 degree of downward rake at the front. Set it up exactly as mentioned.....handled like it was on rails. On a twisty road it shamed a lot of more sophisticated cars.
HAving a bind in your steering is maddening!! I had a bind in my 2006 F150 Steering linkage. The u-joint was seizing up from corrosion, I lubed it and it helped for a while but i had to replace the shaft that connected column to the rack to fix it for good.
Great video. Too many crappy bolt on “upgrades” out there. We call it “upgrade to downgrade” at my shop. I really prefer the borgeson boxes too.
I had a flaming river manual rack on my 2012, and it had seemed okay. Different chassis for sure, though. I ended up taking it off the car and going to hydraulic PS because I was injuring myself trying to turn the car when it was sitting still.
This is just the info i needed. Thanks kiwi
Glad it was helpful!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 going through construction on a 37 plymouth sedan here in nz. Low volume certification process ect, this info is awesome and we'll explained. Thanks again mate!
Holy mackerel Kiwi, had the same issues with after market suspension too! Serious bump steer, dangerous like all the mustang 2 crap( pinto). Everyone asking why I didn't change the front suspension on my 54 Bel-Air? Good enough for a Corvette till 60s, and easy rebuild. Good on ya restore it to stock. They road racer those cars. Engineers in white lab coats.😅❤
I was working on a c3 corvette that was scary to drive and the cause was the flaming river rack. The steering shaft had to go almost straight down from the firewall to the rack so that the u-joints would bind and the toe changed with bumps just like this. I have a video of it on youtube. The fix was to replace it with borgeson box and stock steering parts.
Great video!!! I'm wondering if the flaming river rack was mounted too high, relative to the road surface. I'm unsure if that would have corrected the steering shaft joint issues. It does seem like (maybe?) it would have put the rack's joints at an angle closer to the control arms' angle, which could have improved the bump steer. Maybe not...
On cars with the tie rods behind the axle centerline, that rack should be raised, not lowered. That said, I think that would make the steering shaft angles worse (I think). I was thinking along the same lines as you, just the opposite direction.
Excellent video and solution. An observation. If the difference between the rear of the wheel to the front was 5 inches, then the toe in (or out, depending on which side was greater) would have been 2 1/2 inches. Still horrendous though! Did the buyer have any comeback on the seller?
Man that bump steer is gona get someone seriously hurt
Have you tried EPAS yet? I just put a 2010 Corolla electric power steering in the Flaming River column in my '36 Chevy and it works great. You do "get to" cut your polished stainless column in half though.
No not yet but I have a kit here that may well find its way onto Large Marge....
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 A kit?! That's cheating! I got mine out of a wrecking yard for $130 and a pair of "fabrication" clamps off ebay for $55, a few feet of #8 wire and got er done. I did the same thing to my daughter's '63 Nova but, had to keep the column shift for the automatic. THAT was some engineering.
@lylejohnston4125 well yeah it kinda is I guess. But mine cost less than yours so ....😬 😎
The Shelby Boss handbook know it apply it.
So I have a big brother to this vehicle, a 1969 Ford Torino with the interesting rams and such steering system. My thought was to go to a rack and pinion setup, but now, not sure. recommendations as the darn things love to leak like a sive and seems to not have a precise feeling going down the road.
Awesome work Kiwi.good thing you made it correct or those tires would have been scrubbed off on the outer edges in about 50 miles.
A fella could almost plow snow with that rig lol
LOL. Good point!!
I understand your flame of Flaming River Kiwi, but could this have possibly been an installer error or the wrong parts used more than a manufacturer error? The new parts worked out great though, nice job!
I don't think it is a Flaming River rack. Look on there website, it doesn't look like any rack kit sell for 66 mustang.
@@GNaron I didn't look into it, I'm just going by what Kiwi reported. Either way the problem existed so it was either a poorly engineered part (which I double Flaming River would market), or a faulty installation. The important thing where steering, suspension and brakes are concerned is to remedy the problem so the car doesn't go out with a potential safety issue lurking.
Great video - thanks, are the Borgeson boxes a relatively easy certification in NZ? i have manual steering now and tossing up between a borgeson or RRS rack and pinion. thanks
Keep in mind that no steering components can have any welding in/on them. Some Borgeson box's have the mounting plates welded to them. What sort of car do you have. If any of the RRS bracketry is welded that will be an automatic fail in NZ
Its a 1970 with 4v 351c. I think the latest Borgesons are no longer welded so hoping they should be pretty straight forward. A friend has the RRS on his mustang and is certed, it looks like a nice bit of kit but my preference is to stay as close a possible to stock (hence the borgeson).
The Borgeson mustang boxes are cast now so you're good there. One thing though, when I took my old man's mustang back compliancing failed me on the Borgeson rag joint that comes with the conversion because it part of it was welded. Had to take it out and use a universal joint! The cert guy was an ass though. All rag joints have the flange welded to the center even factory ones 🙄
Stock mustang steering of that era was actually pretty tight and responsive, it used an external booster "ram" which had two little hoses that hung down a little below the car. I wonder if that flaming river kit is even made for a mustang?
I like reconditioning the old stock parts rather than buy aftermarket.My 65 Dart is a good example.
Maybe I missed it in the earlier video but do we know what precipitated the owner to replace the stock steering in the first place? It would have been a costly change so what were they trying to fix?
It was a factory power assist steer car so it was probably leaking. I don't mess with those and upgrade to a Borgeson power box. On paper the R&P upgrade is a good one, sadly "on paper" just didn't translate into the real world in this case due to poor execution on the part of the manufacturer.
Did you contact Faming River to hear what they have to say about this problem?
Flaming river off the list, can you do a review of the RRS suspension & suspension products?
Great video 👍🏼
I’m hoping for the same. I have a 69 Fairlane with TCP coil over conversion, love it! However I’d like to make the steering as responsive as the suspension; looking at RRS as well. They appeared well engineered for the Firds, bolting in while still allowing adjustments to limit bump steeer.
I’m considering the Borgeson box but truly want the tighter ratio of the rack.
I’ve inquired to Kiwi as well, I’ve watched a number of his videos and greatly value his content, as opinion
I managed to pass Geometry in High School! But that was about 50 years ago....
Looks like it needs a wider rack so the pivot points on the tie rods and lower control arms match. If the car had the correct rack, it would drive fine.
im sure ford spent more time & money in R & D than any aftermarket company...!.."most" stock componets...will do the job 4 a car that is used for "mostly" a street or daily driver..!..drive'n a car with a lot of bump steer is "not" plesant...!...way to go Kiwi...the costomer should be really happy...!..good vidio..!
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Ideal scenario is to have tie rods maintain the same angle as control arms....in a perfect world anyway. You just showed the world my Valiant wheel alignment technique 😅😂
Yeah, at 9:20 is pretty much what I was trying to say 😂
I have used Total Control on my 65 Fastback and RRS on my 67 Fairlane. The RRS is great! Total Control, not so much.
Scratching my head and thinking..... Would installing the Flaming River tie rod ends under the steering knuckles rather than over them help the bump steer dimensions?
Possibly it could have reduced it but unlikely to an acceptable level. Then you still had the steering shaft universals binding from the too severe angle they were working through. Time to cut and run as they say
Unless you want to go road racing and engineer the steering and suspension from the ground up the stock style stuff works fine. You can always get a quicker ratio box that bolts right in. No brainer IMO.
I've installed a few Flaming River racks, never had such an issue..I never did a Mustang conversion, but the Chevy trucks I've done were spot-on..I've got one of their manual racks in my own 'stang (it's a '97 that originally had a power rack, not a conversion) and it works as it should.
Anyone with experience wouldn't even consider installing a rack with that much difference in tie rod/a-arm length...which leads me to think this isn't the part that FR supplies in their kit..either it was shipped in error or some hack installed whatever he could get..
I don't think it is a Flaming River rack. Look on there website, it doesn't look like any rack kit sell for 66 mustang.
@@GNaron
Kiwi didn't show much of it, but it sure didn't LOOK like there was an FR crossmember installed..
@@zrxdoug He show quite a bit of it on the other video of car. The dead give away it the FR doesn't use tie rods on 66 mustang, the rod ends screw directly the rack.
Man you killed me, I have the flaming river rack on my 74 corvette. I’ve been working on it for 10 years and it’s not done and I haven’t noticed the toe in you showed but I do have the binding of the steering because of the 🎉ujoints. I actually removed metal from the joints to try to minimise the binding. I paid a fortune for that thing when I bought it. Oh well I’ll figure out something.
I don't think it is a Flaming River rack. Look on there website, it doesn't look like any rack kit sell for 66 mustang.
It's got their branding all over it!
Charger1908 you may not have the bumpsteer issues on your corvette. It's the location of the rack that's causing the issues on the mustang.
Hey, Kiwi, there is a bare metal (with blue door) car in the background. Is it an old Sunbeam Alpine? Or possibly a Daimler SP250? Do you have a video of it? Looks like it could be a cool build.
It's an Alpine! Good spotting! Building that one for my wife and I've got some very ambitious plans for it. All will be revealed soon.......
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 My dad's cousin had a 61 Alpine with the wanna-be fins and the slanted taillights. Cool car!
Looking at this conversion I wonder if the problem is not with the conversion but with the original installation. From what I can tell, the outer tie rod ends were installed incorrectly on the conversion. They are on top of the steering arm. Look at the original setup and you'll see the outer tie rod ends connect to the bottom of the steering arm. Putting them on top of the steering arm will put the ball joint center much too high and give the bumpsteer issue you are getting.
Nice explanation, Kiwi!
Glad to see it got fixed right. That was an accident waiting to happen.
You're right there!
Were you able to get the Borgeson box in with the shorty headers? If so can you tell what brand headers? Thanks
Some people need to put the wrenches down 😂😂
I take it the shop that installed that kit didn't botch the steering column modification? I have had a couple early mustangs, and a corvette I had to just get a new column as well as the box when removing aftermarket racks.
Wow the bad builds have a way of finding you to get fixed!
I know right🤔
"Flaming Wreck"
A river that's so toxic that it has burst into flames is possibly not the best product image choice.
That's a tough business to be in. Most of those cars were off the road by mid 1980's.
Someone shoe shines them and people dry when you uncover 60 years of poor work ethics and stripped threads as well as rust. They think the cars are better shape than the one they stopped driving in 1977.
A restoration shop is a storage facility waiting for parts and don't see the ROI like a flat rate shop does per hour. THESE PEOPLE DESERVE MORE MONEY FOR FIXING THE MISTAKES OF OTHERS. Been there, done that and moved on to make a [decent] living.
Shelby drop for the upper control arms?
Stock is always best. Took me years to realize and accept that.
From the looks of the undercarriage, I think the previous builders did a much better job putting this Mustang together than the other messes you show us. There does not appear to be any oil leaks. Maybe they did not know about the issues with the rack and pinion conversion and trusted that the aftermarket kit could be a plug and play swap.
And the damn headers
I found that leak! One of the primaries was leaking where it wasn't fully welded to the Cyl head flange.
Headers add 125% more horsepower, especially on street driven cars which rarely see 4000 RPM. I saw it in a magazine.
Headers also add 54% more frustration any time I have to work around em lol
@@BPattB I call them Rubic's Tubes.
@paulhare662 LOL I'm doing a single to dual bowl master swap on my 65 and I'm trying to tie in to the rear hard line at the fire wall. Trying to flair the line in the car with the headers in place in killing me. That said I'll remove the whole line before that header comes off lol
Wonder if the Flaming unit was for a 67/68 or 69/70
Wow.... I have never seen suspension do that when the car is lifted up 🤨 I'm sure that was a hoot to drive.
It certainly wasn't dull !!
Have Kev, would it pass a WOF in whangarei...😂
Hell no!!!
I wonder how good or bad the rack from Total Control Products bought out by Chris Alston Chassis Works is?
Wow.That's just shameful.But I bet she'll be a happy pony now.Good on ya Kiwi.
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Damn, and i guess three and that was giving it some. Thats a lot at least to an non-car guy who only watches YT. I use to be all into working on my cars. Until i figured out i wasnt mechanically inclined. Didnt take auto-shop in HS took vacuum forming plastics.
I didn’t expect it to go in so much the second time , but I never noticed that before. I trust your opinion .
That is much better!
When and if he retires he could do remote video reviews where he instructs the person with vehicle to show him what he wants to see.
What happened to your external lavalier mic, Kiwi? Using one makes your videos so much better to watch and listen to.
Yeah I need to use them all the time I think.
Wow that alignment looked terrible. That combined with the binding UJ would have a person thinking that the whole rack is mounted at least 2” too low.
The drag link being a good 2” higher than the rack reinforces that.
I’d also hazard a guess that it’s nigh on impossible to mount the rack higher.
Improved production looks to have been the best answer
I saw your test drive of this car. It should improve dramatically with steering and handling.
Couldn't be worse....!
I could understand if someone not knowing what they where doing, pulled the parts out of a junk yard and did the install. I've fixed that nightmare before. This catastrophe has a couple of people to hold accountable. The manufacturer and the installer. Installer should have known it wasn't right and sent it back. Letting the manufacturer know it's not right. Good job doing the right thing!
I am asking, i don't know if it would matter, and probably not make up the difference, but was the rack at the center of its travel while the wheels were straight on the ground? PS, im a big fan of my borgeson in my Mopar.
Maybe their tag line should be "everywhere but straight under brakes". My first FWD car was a 2 litre laser XRi. Great little car but it suffered from bump and torque steer more than my previous RWD vehicles. Only thing it ever failed a WOF on was a number plate light out. A few years ago I heard that a number of imported muscle cars were being failed at the inspection stage because they had certain aftermarket suspension parts fitted that were OK and madein the USA. I always thought American made stuff was superior until I saw some of it. Our WOF system may be derided and sometimes over the top - I just finished repairing some mild surface rust on a friend's Mazda rear floor. If you are building a performance car though, the parts you use should make the car better and not unsafe or make it perform worse.
some countries get fairly pedant about the stuff being stock certified that's on a car mods wise.
a lot of them are very anti-modifications to power etc too. well, usa is as well it's just that nobody seems to care and it's not enforced at all.
@@lasskinn474 imagine driving this mustang hard on a wet, twisty road. Turn left and the loaded right wheel is trying to turn not quite as left as the left tyre is. The opposite would happen turning right. Wear on the inside tread of the tyres would also be excessive as well as extra wear on the steering components. Terrible set up but not the worst out there by a long shot.
Basically what has happened is the tie rod on the rack and pinion are too short.
I have set back rack and pinion twice and they were measured both times they were different length.
This is avery common issues with reman rack and pinion.
Solution is to get longer tie rod ends.
Dont adjust the tie rod with the wheels planted on the ground,it binds the steering,keep the front wheel so they are touching.
Center you steering wheel,line it from the center of the rear wheel to the front,then measure front edge of the rim,and the rear edge of the rim,then divide by 2,and then adjust with the wheel so the front is slightly towed in by a 16th.