Flaming River Fiasco
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- Today we throw out the Flaming River Rack and Pinion with its massive Bumpsteer issues and install a Borgeson Power Steering box !!
#hotrod #streetmachine #utg #classiccarsculture #customcars #protouring #ford #classiccars #kapwing #mustang #cougarfastback #protouring #promods #ford @mustang @UncleTonysGarage #mustangfanclub #mustangcar #mach1 #mustangfastback #mustangfans #borgeson #flamingriver
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Stock has more engineering behind it than most people realize. I don’t understand the need for wholesale changes. But I’m funny that way.
You're not alone
My brother-in-law was an engineer for Ford. Not impressed by OEM engineering
I don't get it either. The stock steering setup of these cars are adequate. Why change it?
@@Patrick-cs6qi who settles for adequate??
"Did you marry a good woman?" No, she's adequate.
"How's the job? You happy with ypur pay?" No, but it's adequate.
My daddy always told me, “the blokes that made it, know more than you my boy”
Is this what they mean when they say welcome to the world of hotrodding with aftermarket parts.
Yeah it kinda does 😏
It never ceases to amaze me how many people leave the flywheel covers off!
It's a lot🤷🏼♂️🤦
Man that bump steer is gona get someone seriously hurt
Good on you Kiwi, getting her to change back to the stock setup, no more binding and it will be a lot safer. 👍 When you think about it, it was Kinda scary, that she was driving it like that.
That's the thing, she wasn't driving it because she didn't like how it drove.
Good fix Kiwi.. 👍
@@stevesadusky8634 thanks man!
While watching the first video I was thinking it's fine as long as you don't drive it much, but that's a fun car to drive if it's driving, right.
OF COURSE KIWI WOULD SCARE HIS CUSTOMERS IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION😅! 🤣🤣 I think you explain this great! And you did the right thing. 👍
I just bought a 65 Corvair with a Flaming River steering box in it. The box is a so-called bolt in replacement for the stock box. The car had a full 1/2 turn of the steering wheel slop in the box. I took it apart, and couldn't really see any reason for the slop. I adjusted it, but it still has more play in it than the old, zillion mile GM box I replaced it with. Several people with the same box in their Corvairs had a similar problem. Not sure I would trust Flaming River with ANY steering component now!
You know🤔the name flaming river lends well for abbreviations 🫢that one’s a laugh riot just waiting..
how is that even possible if there wasn't like a pin broken off. did you tear it down to see what was up with it?
@@lasskinn474 Yes, but I didn't remove all the recirculating balls. I suspect that is where the play is.
Wow, with that geometry it had to of steered like a shopping 🛒!
Ya had to pay attention!!
I'm constantly amazed that someone with a few thousand dollars thinks they can improve on a design the manufacturer spent a billion dollars designing.
It will be fine with just a borgeson box and factory stuff.
Agreed!!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 but ay? I’m still running the Eaton pump and ram in my 63.5😋love the one finger steering..
Holy Cow! I have never seen that amount of bump steer. I built a Shelby Cobra kit car years ago and dove in head first into suspension geometry including bump steer. Now, it's not difficult to look at a system and see what can be done to correct it. I mean simple things like rack movement or re-positioning tie rod end connections. But this Mustang! Holy Cow! (again). You're right to go back to the original system. I know that the flaming river rack could be made to work but it would include radical suspension changes and lots of relocation. Likely moving the tie rods to in front of the axle. A rocket science project for sure.
Great and simple explanation of bumpsteer. I really learned a lot, thank you Kiwi!!!!
I have used many flaming river steering boxes. The tugs at a major airport used solid non-pnumatic front tires. Very unforgiving and blew out the castings on the OEM steering boxes. We would order a pallet of fr steering boxes at a time. They worked FINE and were a fair quality part. As I was the mechanic changing the broken boxes I had no issues after several dozen boxes. Many things can affect bump steer, shortened steering arms, bent steering arm, raised or lowered steering box position due to frame repair ( accident) or a combination of all parts ( tollerance stack up ).
Brought an xm ute years ago DU997 nice bright orange show ute 289 5 speed supra but had serious bump steer due to using xb falcon stub axles for the disc brakes they pushed the top and bottom ball joints too far apart replaced with original stubs and machined adapter to use xb rotors and used hz holden brake calipers because the were just two bolts straight through to mount on the backing plate bolted to the original 4 holes the original drum brake backing plate bolted to. Then had to do a recert. Which was the hardest and most expensive part of the fix lol typical kiwi we say it how it is no sugar coating. 😁🇬🇸👍
I was working on a c3 corvette that was scary to drive and the cause was the flaming river rack. The steering shaft had to go almost straight down from the firewall to the rack so that the u-joints would bind and the toe changed with bumps just like this. I have a video of it on youtube. The fix was to replace it with borgeson box and stock steering parts.
Looks like a primary factor in some of those meme videos of Mustang control fails while exiting car events!
Wow, That is why it was so hard to Drive in your Last Video !
Yes, exactly!
Nicely clear for non engineers Kiwi, good to hear a call out to a brand to "😊straighten out"
I get that they can't always do things perfectly and bring parts to market at a saleable price. But this kit kit should have been scrapped at the prototype stage
The Shelby Boss handbook know it apply it.
Jesus Chrysler !!
That's quite a dramatic change !!
Very!!!
When and if he retires he could do remote video reviews where he instructs the person with vehicle to show him what he wants to see.
I didn’t expect it to go in so much the second time , but I never noticed that before. I trust your opinion .
The got their name because you end up "on fire in the river".
Recirculating ball steering can be very precise. One thing that helps a lot is to ensure where the steering box mounts to the chassis is very strong and won't deflect.
Unfortunately the chassis rail flex's quite a bit on the early mustangs. They added a torque box in 67 that helped a lot
My 67 with a K-Code engine in it has a totally stock suspension, all new and it corners and is fun to drive. Kiwi is a fantastic top of his game to recognize all these problems. I have great respect for his mechanical ability.
Having heard the Flaming River name a million times in car books I probably would have thought it was good stuff . Not a good reason now is it . Thanks this did open my eyes to things .
Good work! Just the thought of the straight shank bolts in the tapered steering knuckles was enough to make me say no way to Flaming river!
Well done again Kiwi!
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Doing good work here educating people and making cars safe.
I went totally off the deep end analyzing the stock suspension. After my mods I got the toe change down to 3mm with full suspension travel. There were a lot of things that influenced it. Namely, pitman arm height,aftermarket arm design, steering box wear or rebuild, idler arm position. + Caster increases tow change as does negative camber curve.
It's a science all of own !!!
Stock mustang steering of that era was actually pretty tight and responsive, it used an external booster "ram" which had two little hoses that hung down a little below the car. I wonder if that flaming river kit is even made for a mustang?
A fella could almost plow snow with that rig lol
LOL. Good point!!
Good video and information for someone building a first gen mustang.
Bump steer in Mustangs & Falcons was always an issue. Simple fix.....Dropped mine 2 inches, 3/4 negative camber & a total of 6mm, or 1/4 inch of toe in. The key is aligning Pitman arm & the idler dead parallel with the frame rails with the car at ride height.
Yeah ya just need an alignment tech that will do as he's told right😉👍
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 Yes...I spent a lot of time sorting mine & then I met an alignment tech who knew his Fords. The 2 inch drop gave it about 1 degree of downward rake at the front. Set it up exactly as mentioned.....handled like it was on rails. On a twisty road it shamed a lot of more sophisticated cars.
So I have a big brother to this vehicle, a 1969 Ford Torino with the interesting rams and such steering system. My thought was to go to a rack and pinion setup, but now, not sure. recommendations as the darn things love to leak like a sive and seems to not have a precise feeling going down the road.
Always, thumbs up, Kiwi!
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 Yes, sir!
Well caught Kiwi.
I have used Total Control on my 65 Fastback and RRS on my 67 Fairlane. The RRS is great! Total Control, not so much.
What he doesn’t mention is that toe changes are the opposite when the wheels are in bump, in this case it would be over 4” of toe-out, a very unstable situation.
You're right!!
Glad to see it got fixed right. That was an accident waiting to happen.
You're right there!
Thanks Kiwi, I learned a few things about steering geometry today!
Happy to help!
"Flaming Wreck"
A river that's so toxic that it has burst into flames is possibly not the best product image choice.
Good information
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Sometimes your videos are short but I really learn a lot on whatever classic car comes into your shop especially Mustangs for repairs or fixing problems. Great channel you have, i really enjoy it, very educating!
Great video Kiwi, unbelievable how much toe in there was on that Flaming River crap. I would have been scared to death to drive the thing. Nice install on the other one mate.
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Ķiwi, over the years I've learned that stock is the way to stay in chassis setups. A few improvements like shocks , springs, and bushings are OK, but no major aftermarket junk. It hardly ever rides properly. Great video.Have a good day buddy.
I managed to pass Geometry in High School! But that was about 50 years ago....
That geometry had some major issues. Talk about twitchy to drive on a rough road.
Good to watch ya Subs / viewers goin up too . good job
I've installed a few Flaming River racks, never had such an issue..I never did a Mustang conversion, but the Chevy trucks I've done were spot-on..I've got one of their manual racks in my own 'stang (it's a '97 that originally had a power rack, not a conversion) and it works as it should.
Anyone with experience wouldn't even consider installing a rack with that much difference in tie rod/a-arm length...which leads me to think this isn't the part that FR supplies in their kit..either it was shipped in error or some hack installed whatever he could get..
I don't think it is a Flaming River rack. Look on there website, it doesn't look like any rack kit sell for 66 mustang.
@@GNaron
Kiwi didn't show much of it, but it sure didn't LOOK like there was an FR crossmember installed..
@@zrxdoug He show quite a bit of it on the other video of car. The dead give away it the FR doesn't use tie rods on 66 mustang, the rod ends screw directly the rack.
That flaming river stuff would work if it was installed correctly. My Cobra has modified jaguar suspension with a shortened Commodore rack and pinion. I set it up with the steering arms at the same length and angle as the suspension arms and my bump steer is under 5mm at full travel. The clown that installed the F.R. rack had absolutely no idea.
Wow.That's just shameful.But I bet she'll be a happy pony now.Good on ya Kiwi.
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
Is it possible they installed the wrong year rack or suspension parts ?
It's great hearing someone tell the truth all the time.
You're a great role model for all of us in the classic car trades.
Keep up the great work Kiwi 👍
I appreciate that!
Great video. Too many crappy bolt on “upgrades” out there. We call it “upgrade to downgrade” at my shop. I really prefer the borgeson boxes too.
Stock is always best. Took me years to realize and accept that.
Kiwi's shop of Mustang malfeasance investigations.
😁😎👍
I like reconditioning the old stock parts rather than buy aftermarket.My 65 Dart is a good example.
Wow.... I have never seen suspension do that when the car is lifted up 🤨 I'm sure that was a hoot to drive.
It certainly wasn't dull !!
Your the man supa kiwi,Very good spotting love your show
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
I never thought of checking like that but I haven't tried to a line a front end up my uncle gave me gage stick he used to line them up.Thanks for the good info.😊
I had a flaming river manual rack on my 2012, and it had seemed okay. Different chassis for sure, though. I ended up taking it off the car and going to hydraulic PS because I was injuring myself trying to turn the car when it was sitting still.
Basically what has happened is the tie rod on the rack and pinion are too short.
I have set back rack and pinion twice and they were measured both times they were different length.
This is avery common issues with reman rack and pinion.
Solution is to get longer tie rod ends.
Dont adjust the tie rod with the wheels planted on the ground,it binds the steering,keep the front wheel so they are touching.
Center you steering wheel,line it from the center of the rear wheel to the front,then measure front edge of the rim,and the rear edge of the rim,then divide by 2,and then adjust with the wheel so the front is slightly towed in by a 16th.
Damn, and i guess three and that was giving it some. Thats a lot at least to an non-car guy who only watches YT. I use to be all into working on my cars. Until i figured out i wasnt mechanically inclined. Didnt take auto-shop in HS took vacuum forming plastics.
Ideal scenario is to have tie rods maintain the same angle as control arms....in a perfect world anyway. You just showed the world my Valiant wheel alignment technique 😅😂
Yeah, at 9:20 is pretty much what I was trying to say 😂
This is good quality information. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
I watch to learn: And I learned important points this time around. Thanks for the excellent lesson in some suspension basics.
Looks like it needs a wider rack so the pivot points on the tie rods and lower control arms match. If the car had the correct rack, it would drive fine.
This is just the info i needed. Thanks kiwi
Glad it was helpful!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 going through construction on a 37 plymouth sedan here in nz. Low volume certification process ect, this info is awesome and we'll explained. Thanks again mate!
Wow that alignment looked terrible. That combined with the binding UJ would have a person thinking that the whole rack is mounted at least 2” too low.
The drag link being a good 2” higher than the rack reinforces that.
I’d also hazard a guess that it’s nigh on impossible to mount the rack higher.
Improved production looks to have been the best answer
Unless you want to go road racing and engineer the steering and suspension from the ground up the stock style stuff works fine. You can always get a quicker ratio box that bolts right in. No brainer IMO.
Was the Flaming River rack and Pinion system installed properly? Was it modified? Last Question: What might FR have to say about this car?
I appreciate your honest opinions Kiwi.
Cheers 🇨🇦
That's a tough business to be in. Most of those cars were off the road by mid 1980's.
Someone shoe shines them and people dry when you uncover 60 years of poor work ethics and stripped threads as well as rust. They think the cars are better shape than the one they stopped driving in 1977.
A restoration shop is a storage facility waiting for parts and don't see the ROI like a flat rate shop does per hour. THESE PEOPLE DESERVE MORE MONEY FOR FIXING THE MISTAKES OF OTHERS. Been there, done that and moved on to make a [decent] living.
im sure ford spent more time & money in R & D than any aftermarket company...!.."most" stock componets...will do the job 4 a car that is used for "mostly" a street or daily driver..!..drive'n a car with a lot of bump steer is "not" plesant...!...way to go Kiwi...the costomer should be really happy...!..good vidio..!
Thanks man and thanks for watching!!
HAving a bind in your steering is maddening!! I had a bind in my 2006 F150 Steering linkage. The u-joint was seizing up from corrosion, I lubed it and it helped for a while but i had to replace the shaft that connected column to the rack to fix it for good.
Looking at this conversion I wonder if the problem is not with the conversion but with the original installation. From what I can tell, the outer tie rod ends were installed incorrectly on the conversion. They are on top of the steering arm. Look at the original setup and you'll see the outer tie rod ends connect to the bottom of the steering arm. Putting them on top of the steering arm will put the ball joint center much too high and give the bumpsteer issue you are getting.
Holy mackerel Kiwi, had the same issues with after market suspension too! Serious bump steer, dangerous like all the mustang 2 crap( pinto). Everyone asking why I didn't change the front suspension on my 54 Bel-Air? Good enough for a Corvette till 60s, and easy rebuild. Good on ya restore it to stock. They road racer those cars. Engineers in white lab coats.😅❤
Did you contact Faming River to hear what they have to say about this problem?
Some people need to put the wrenches down 😂😂
Great video!!! I'm wondering if the flaming river rack was mounted too high, relative to the road surface. I'm unsure if that would have corrected the steering shaft joint issues. It does seem like (maybe?) it would have put the rack's joints at an angle closer to the control arms' angle, which could have improved the bump steer. Maybe not...
On cars with the tie rods behind the axle centerline, that rack should be raised, not lowered. That said, I think that would make the steering shaft angles worse (I think). I was thinking along the same lines as you, just the opposite direction.
Excellent video and solution. An observation. If the difference between the rear of the wheel to the front was 5 inches, then the toe in (or out, depending on which side was greater) would have been 2 1/2 inches. Still horrendous though! Did the buyer have any comeback on the seller?
Have you tried EPAS yet? I just put a 2010 Corolla electric power steering in the Flaming River column in my '36 Chevy and it works great. You do "get to" cut your polished stainless column in half though.
No not yet but I have a kit here that may well find its way onto Large Marge....
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 A kit?! That's cheating! I got mine out of a wrecking yard for $130 and a pair of "fabrication" clamps off ebay for $55, a few feet of #8 wire and got er done. I did the same thing to my daughter's '63 Nova but, had to keep the column shift for the automatic. THAT was some engineering.
@lylejohnston4125 well yeah it kinda is I guess. But mine cost less than yours so ....😬 😎
I understand your flame of Flaming River Kiwi, but could this have possibly been an installer error or the wrong parts used more than a manufacturer error? The new parts worked out great though, nice job!
I don't think it is a Flaming River rack. Look on there website, it doesn't look like any rack kit sell for 66 mustang.
@@GNaron I didn't look into it, I'm just going by what Kiwi reported. Either way the problem existed so it was either a poorly engineered part (which I double Flaming River would market), or a faulty installation. The important thing where steering, suspension and brakes are concerned is to remedy the problem so the car doesn't go out with a potential safety issue lurking.
Note to all you lift guys out there. Never allow your lift to "hang" on the hydraulic rams. Once you've got your desired height, let it down so the arms are resting solely on the safety blocks.
Wow the bad builds have a way of finding you to get fixed!
I know right🤔
From the looks of the undercarriage, I think the previous builders did a much better job putting this Mustang together than the other messes you show us. There does not appear to be any oil leaks. Maybe they did not know about the issues with the rack and pinion conversion and trusted that the aftermarket kit could be a plug and play swap.
Flaming river off the list, can you do a review of the RRS suspension & suspension products?
Great video 👍🏼
I’m hoping for the same. I have a 69 Fairlane with TCP coil over conversion, love it! However I’d like to make the steering as responsive as the suspension; looking at RRS as well. They appeared well engineered for the Firds, bolting in while still allowing adjustments to limit bump steeer.
I’m considering the Borgeson box but truly want the tighter ratio of the rack.
I’ve inquired to Kiwi as well, I’ve watched a number of his videos and greatly value his content, as opinion
So many old cars are this screwed up or just straight up sloppy from unaddressed wear I think some people just assume its normal. Criminal how some add to the problem selling stuff like this.
I could understand if someone not knowing what they where doing, pulled the parts out of a junk yard and did the install. I've fixed that nightmare before. This catastrophe has a couple of people to hold accountable. The manufacturer and the installer. Installer should have known it wasn't right and sent it back. Letting the manufacturer know it's not right. Good job doing the right thing!
I had no idea aftermarket rack and pinion was so unthought out. I’m sure that applys to all automakers.
Nice explanation, Kiwi!
Awesome work Kiwi.good thing you made it correct or those tires would have been scrubbed off on the outer edges in about 50 miles.
I'd imagine under compression you'd get toe out... would feel even worse!
Exactly !!!
Nice work fixing others mistakes
That is much better!
I could imagine going fast up a hill and then cresting it and maybe hitting a big hump would probably cause you to veer off and crash.
Look at that front valance! Is that thing home-made or what? I'm no Mustang eggspurt or even an aficionado, but that thing just sticks out like a sore thumb!
Wonder if the Flaming unit was for a 67/68 or 69/70
No chance of me buying one .😊
Good!!
These mustangs with relatively stock steering kicked ass on the road racing circuit for years. Shelby had a mod where the mounting points for the upper control arms where lowered about 1/2 inch or so. Are you familiar with that Kiwi?? If it aint broke, don't fix it is my go to. I'm not saying that there are not upgrades but this is ridiculous.
Thank the Lord this woman's car made it to you from California. That thing handled like c***