The cold week has made me nervous for the heatpump at mums using defrost cycles and burning up to 9kw. Her house is big and the cost with batteries and octopus go is on par with gas on the bad weeks. The good weeks its using between 1-1.5kw and saving me 100s monthly. Very, very happy and its not half as bad as the fear mongers made out :)
I think the way to look at it is over the long-term rather than on individual days or weeks, yes there are going to be days where you’re going to consume large amounts of electricity but like today where it’s 14° and windy and my heat pump has consumed less than 1 kWh for the whole day so far but the house is still a nice 20°. over the course of winter you’re going to consume more but on days when it’s not cold, you’ll probably consume significantly less. It really depends if the average is gonna be less than the cost of gas. I don’t have enough data from my system yet to be able to validate that conclusion, but that’s what I’m hearing from people who have had these things for a long period of time.
Thank you so much for reporting your experience! It definitely works for you, for sure! Mostly my house hovers around 18-19C so if yours can do 22C over the cold snap, that gives me a lot of confidence. It's good to know the Daikin Altherma overestimates its consumption too; I can plan for getting a Shelly if I want to monitor that. I already have a Shelly for grid and bidirectional EVSE monitoring.
Getting a room up to 22 with modern flow boilers weather there heat pump or gas is taxing. I have a modern eco boiler which is a lot lower temp than my old one we use a secondary heat source on cold evenings as in a log burner. 22 is way to hot for the whole building
Nice one Jonathan, I stuck a Shelly em on my HP feed and have similar figures, we have 1 ev, 12kWh battery and solar. I choose to get rid of my gas altogether and fitted a plug and play induction hob. I was always a gas hob cooker person but since getting my Neff hob its a game changer. Also intelligent octopus gives me the extra slots when my battery runs out, however in process of upgrading my battery capacity. Just waiting on a small form PC to arrive so to get me hooked up with Home Assistant which with all my tech in the house will be an brain storming week or two!
Thanks for sharing your heat pump journey with us, JT. My own journey could follow next year now the arbitrary 1 metre rule is being scrapped. I'm fascinated by your Shelly energy monitor. A video tutorial on how to install and use would be great ;)
Its not a difficult install but it should be installed by a qualified electrician (which I am not) although its a pretty simple install (details on the shelly sight) I have a complex electrical setup and prefer to have qualified people do that kind of work for me.
For a US perspective, I replaced a 20+ year 3 ton old gas furnace + A/C combo plus gas hot water tank with a 2.5 ton Mitsubishi Electric HyperHeat heat pump and a Stiebol Eltron Tempra 15 Plus instant hot water unit completely electrifying my place. It wasn't cheap (nearly $17K) but my operational costs for heating/cooling and hot water (admitted just for myself since I live alone) has averaged under $0.50 a day. The winter lows here are usually near 0C (the last week has been around -3C). The summer highs average about 38C but rarely reach 45C. During the winter in the day time I keep the inside around 18C but at night I allow it to drop to around 15C. In the summer I keep the place around 25C. My daily electricity costs for the past year average to about $1.50. That is 50% or more less than what my neighbors are paying. When the heat pump is on, I average about 10 kWh used daily instead of the 4 kWh when it's not in use..
Thanks for the perspective, a friend in Colorado has just installed a big solar system, I didn’t know about all the inspections needed from the city before he could turn it on
We have just had solar and battery installed. We get 11,000Kwh a year to play with so I am looking into a heat pump and water system also. Thanks for the video
Thank you for posting these vids. I’m not there yet and I will know more once I have the survey done once i have decided to move forward. I am not doubting users experiences. If I can change at a decent cost as my boiler will need replacing, have a comfort level befitting my age and have a reasonable saving, then it’s only a greater power than I that will need convincing. We had warm air at my previous home and loved it, we now live in a dormer bungalow with a combi that I am getting used to now the weather is changing. 👍🏻. Government needs to do more not by taxing boiler manufacturers.
Thanks I am sure the costs will come down, Octopus will be driving down teh cost of the Cosy 6 and possibly other models, this may make it easier for everyone who wants one to jump in. The start is to stop installing boilers in new builds, I believe that is immienant then you start adding tax to new installs in existing properties, while removing tax on heatpumps.
It would be good to see updates of the discrepancies between the Daikin reported energy usage against the actual usage as reported by your more accurate measures. Octopus installed a heat pump here in November '23 but I have only the Daikin app's reports of its energy use. Thanks for the interesting videos.
Yep but I’m a little concerned with two EVs and batteries we may transgress the T&Cs and octopus may put us a standard tariff. From what I see IOG is only supposed to be for single supported evs or chargers. Now I’m probably worrying about nothing but for 1.5p a kWh I’m happy to stay on this side of this side of the line
Very interesting, I was wondering on how the payback and running costs would compare for a similar size house with no solar or battery storage? I also suspect off peak cheap rates will begin to disappear as electricity demand over night must be increasing all the time with more EV's both commercial and domestic, ASHP and batteries being charged. One day off peak demand could be greater than daytime command especially with the reduction of industries in the UK.
not sure i can answer that without more data, but don’t think we’re in danger of seeing cheap rates disappear anytime soon. The last 24 hours as a good example, when the wind blows we have so much excess power in the grid we have zero or negative prices. just today we had free power from 7am to midday
Thanks for posting great footage. Could you possibly include some content of the heat pump during normal operation on cold periods so can get a feel for any noise generated during normal operation.
Yes abosolutely, I missed it this time as it was defrosted before I had the chance to setup the camera to catch the defrost cycle. However i am sure it catch it sometime soon. For noise I will borrow a friends calibrated noise meter so I can test at different distances - watch for a video soon
Wow. Your kWh is more on average than my usage. On my absolute worst day last week was almost 1/10th of your average daily usage and that day I was running dehumidifiers.
yes we’re a heavy user but there are a few reason, every day in winter we charge two electric cars, plus we fill up our grid charged batteries for the home. this runs the house all day and we export any excess we don’t use. this gives us a bit back each evening.
your external fan unit is pouring out a plume of cold air into an enclosed space whic h compromises the HP efficiency . It is better to raise it up so that it doesnt suck in its own exhaust
We did a smoke test and coupled with the prevailing winds. There is no issues. The cold air is being evacuated away and not being pulled back into the evaporator even when there is zero wind there is sufficient space that nothing is getting pulled back in.
@@JonathanTracey Im surprised by that - I am fitting an air to air only aircon heater unit and am raising the external fan more than a metre above my small enclosed back garden in London to prevent exhaust recirculation
i have about 3-4 meters either side of the fan and 1.6m in front, with prevailing wind (we have 5 miles of flat fields begin our house) it has no problems circulating. the guys used a small smoke pellet, that shows how the air is moving, on the day we tested it was a close to still air as possible and there was still a circulation
@@JonathanTracey ok you are in a fortuinate location and have done a lot of homework but this is a poorly understood area - I have even had an installer say that it didnt happen Basically the fan outputs X kw of cooling power (heatpump in heating mode) where X is the COP-1 which can be a very significant effect depending on the design of the whole physical layout
I used to do this when I was on intelligent last year, but now we are too EV household officially it’s against the terms and conditions. For the extra 1.5p per kilowatt I would rather not annoy them. I really don’t want them dumping me onto a standard tariff because I’ve transgressed some rule. I’ll probably stay on go until the end of February and then switch back to agile as that give give me the lowest daytime cost for the very small amounts of power that we import and the rest will be offset by generation as we head into the summer.
Im getting a heat pump installed next week 🎉 i have been writing some code to figure out how much the past year would have cost had i had a heat pump using my consumption data from the Octopus API. As well as the standing charge for gas thst id save, it was a good 10% less than the gas cost, based on a pessimistic SCOP (and adjusted COP throughout the year).
i’m doing something similar in home assistant, once i have enough data plan to automate changes to the heat pump via that. did consider going starting to the API but my python is a little rusty 👍
great follow up - especially the 3rd party consumption monitoring nearly wobbled back to the intall idea, i have insufficient additional storage to warrant excessive deep cycle use for the finacial return. in winter my 10kW does 2 charges daily and only retains 60% SOC, giving only 4kW to export. vid made me think , taa
it takes a little mgmt and on some days I have nothing left to export. But on days like today when octopus are giving me free power from 3 to 5pm I am exporting 15kwh right now so I ready to charge up with 20kw at 3pm when its free :-)
Really good series of factual videos, and now we get to the really interesting part, how much they cost to run over a period of time. You will continue to get naysayers who seem to want to disparage anything to do with renewables. Those same people in the main also overlook you are spending your own money to do what you deem important. In the end all who commit to renewable use do it for their own reasons. For climate deniers that is an especially difficult concept to grasp because in their own minds THEY are right despite all the clear evidence to the contrary. Very helpful as we are currently sitting on PV, EV and 14kw of batteries with more batteries in the pipeline. We could go ASHP now but with a three year old combi, unless the amount to change after the 7.5k grant is absolutely minimal it’s probably something that we can wait upon. Technology is improving so quickly that improvements and greater efficiencies will follow, plus hopefully as more and more ASHP’s are fitted the band of installers will gain experience too. 13:37
Thanks appreciate the kind words, yes if your boiler is only 3 years old its going to be hard to justify. Hopefully if companies like octopus can drive down the costs with their Cosy range of heatpumps it may become more viable for you.
I have same unit and over last 24 hours it's used 22.5 kWh for heating and hot water, 15 hours of that below zero Celsius and ten hours of that between -2 and -3C in N.E Scotland. On a standard 25p/kWh tariff that would cost £6.23 which includes daily rate (61p), or on my HP tariff of 14p/kWh that's £3.76. At -3C external, living room was 19.3C, bathroom 22.6C, Hall 17.5C, bedroom 18.6C all this achieved at 36C fixed flow temperature and six defrost cycles 1960's two bedroom semi, very modest insulation and double glazed. Since end of June I've used 977kWh for heating @ hot water. (as measured using Heatpumpmonitor supplied Pi2 unit with CT clamps and thermometers).
I have the same heatpump and when heating hot water sometimes it will use the emersion to get the last few degrees into the tank. So to be accurate if your tank has an emersion u would have to monitor that aswell.
yes, the monitoring device that we put into the consumer unit has two channels. So it monitors both the heat pump and the booster. We haven’t had any to use it yet other than for the weekly legionella cycle.
I have same but usually only heat water to 43C for a nice hot bath or shower, or 60C (less efficient, takes longer & lower COP) for an occasional Legionella cycle, the unit has a small 'booster' heater which is used to take water to 65C if required, booster heater function can be disabled in MMI if I remember correctly. The immersion in the HWC could further boost it, but I can't think of a need to do so. I also disabled the 'keep water at same temperature' function on my Mixergy Cylinder, it would have maintained that using immersion.
the temperature varies because we’re in and out a lot, every time we let the dogs out we lose a bit of heat and our thermostat is in the hall near the front door. i’m going to be adding small room sensors so i can monitor temperatures all over the house together
i don’t have enough data yet to get a reasonably accurate COP but soon as my electric bill for the month is less than i was paying for gas and electricity then i am happy 👍
@@JonathanTracey keep it to yourself, but on the MMI under information, then energy data will give you an idea of your COP since instalation (its all done on the left dial) today was 11 in and 34 out, all at 7p, I have everything setup on exit temp on the ASHP (currently at 45 Deg), with no temp comp.
yes it’s wired through the eddi, so it can still boost and use excess solar, however starting to think the eddi may be redundant, makes no sense to use 1kw of spare power via eddie, when 1kw via the heat pump would give 3-4x the hot water
Just waiting for the Octopus Survey, Have had the quote of £3000 for our small bungalow, Have a10kw battery and 4Kw of solar along with 2 EV's . I keep our Snug nice and toasty as I make use of the night time GO rate to charge our Storage Heater which will last all day keeping the room warm, the other item keeping the room warm Is an Oxygen Concentrator (300) watts running all day as I am on Oxygen and that's free to run as the installer pay back the electricity costs for running it (Free Heat)
@@JonathanTracey Made by Newlec, 3kw with 2 controls heat in and heat out when needed, Has large silica bricks inside and weighs about 120kg, size is 800 x 600 mm also put one in our conservatory a 1.7kw model these were used on the old economy 7 tarrif and are about 15 years old but still in good order, Don't waste big money on the latest one's as they don't work as good (Clay Filled)
Yes seems to be around 4, will need a little more data to get better numbers, the install team suggested waiting for a few months before measuring its COP, to average out the warm and cold days
@JonathanTracey currently on cosy tariff, and exploiting the 3xcharge at 12p , the additional investment for more than the 15kwh battery was too much. So effective 45kwh on a 7kw arotherm. Looking forward to the data.
Hi Jon Les here just back from holidays and you now have your HP installed so I have some catching up to do but I Agee the Dailkin app is not as good as it could be and I think I might get one of them energy monitors things into mine, so was it a DIY job ? Or expensive? How you a video on how it’s fitted.i have no gas now but my consumption has shoot up for electricity but not had time has yet to have a good look at the set up as I have been away for 3 weeks. Thanks
Hi Les, hope you had a good holiday. The Shelly should be installed by a qualifed electrician, and although I am capable I would not do it myself. I used a local company called Artisan Electrics who I get in to do anything that involves the consumer units, that way I can be sure its done properly and to code. Small things i do myself but not that.
Once you're on intelligent you can just override or ignore it entirely. I got signed onto it for the lower price but it doesn't work with two EVs, so I just disconnected the car from it. I didn't get kicked off. Worst they can do is move you back. I still tell the charger to favour green times, so my conscience is clear.
for the very small increase i will probably just stay on go. i did as you describe last year with. no issues but i don’t want them suddenly saying i’m breaking the T&Cs and drop me on a standard tariff #thatwouldbebad
What charger have you got? We have 2 EVs and it works fine with our Ohme Home Pro. I don't bother to change the cars over in the Ohme app, so our Zoe always goes to 100% whereas the Tesla gets to about 80%. Remember that the intelligent sessions are billed by the half hour, so if the car finishes charging at 2 mins past the half hour, you have until the next half hour on cheap rates.
Thanks for a great insight. We've just had a Adlar heatpump fitted 14Kw . Seems fine except very high daily cost, £15! We are on the Octopus special heatpump tariff ( 3 cheap sessions a day ) Do you keep your pump all the time, do you adjust the TRVs to suit each room and what storage battery do you have and how much did it cost ? We have a large detached 5bedroom house with 10 solar panels and one electric car. Thanks for your super easily understood video. Roger
we are still in the experimental stage, seeing what works best for our home. today was the first very mild day and the heat pump consumed almost nothing so far. we haven’t adjusted our trvs as the installer said that could make the pump cycle on and off more often, so trying to find an even temperature that everyone likes
Great to see it's making a difference already. It would have cost you 2.5k ISH to replace your boiler so your return should factor that in. Also Intelligent Go would let you get the cheaper rate till up to 11am in the morning. Might be worth having a second look as we've not noticed any real problem with charging our 2 EVs
to be honest extra hours won’t really help as my batteries and evs charge in about 3 hours, so extra hours cheap rate don’t really add much to the equation. wrt the boiler yes our plumber friend is going to give me a quote for would have done it for at mates rates, because that’s what i would have actually paid. will factor into next set of numbers
Good start especially since it was much colder this last week. Let's get some more figures to get a better picture over the year. Does the heat pump cool too for the summer?
Yep, data is going to be our friend for the next year. No, for reasons but I don’t really understand the UK government will not give you a grant towards your Heat Pump if it has the ability to call your house in the summer. Basically, I think they’re worried that all the gains from moving to low carbon heating will be wiped out if you use it to call your house in the summer. For me that’s not too much of a problem we generally only have one to 2 days a year that it really needs air-conditioning and I have a portable unit that will work just fine for those days.
IOG has a dumb mode which behaves like Go from 11:30-5:30, worth switching for a larger window and cheaper rate if you have an EV/charger you can connect! Did you need to pay extra for the brickwork to be done?
Yeah, I know IOG has an extra hour but to be honest, I don’t need it. Most of my stuff is charged in the first 3 to 3 1/2 hours of the window so having an extra hour really doesn’t do me any benefit. The brickwork was part of the boiler removal so included in the price they just didn’t realise how big the hole was until they put the boiler out apparently older boilers have larger events for the flue.
@ interesting! I’ve seen a few other installs that were just fitted with a plastic cover, with yours obviously being preferential - maybe it varies by area!
there wasn’t any discussion about other options as soon as rh boiler came out they said, we need a brick layer to fix this, will make some phone calls. maybe if it’s a smaller hole they have other options
Helpful video. As you already had home batteries installed I guess its fine to discount their cost from the payback period. But someone getting this installed from scratch would need to spend how much on 37kwh battery storage to run the system all day on stored energy?
My wife's family live in Sweden. My farther in law heats his whole (super insulated) house on 1 air-to-air heat pump, and my brother in law has a ground source heat pump that has saved him a fortune. My rough calculations suggest I'd need 2 of GivEnergy's 13.5kwh batteries at £7.2k a pop on top of the heat pump install. I'd do it tomorrow if the sums added up.
The difficult calculations is, should I buy now what does it add up to, what if I wait for battery prices to fall,how much would I have made if I bought when I originally looked at it. Sometimes you just have to go for it
@@AndrewSmith-ih7sl I suppose it needs some careful calculation as to what level of batteries really makes most sense. 100% battery shifted heating which is only required a few months of the year might take a very long time to pay back. On the coldest days I need 70+kWh of gas for heating, and my electricity load is something like 15kWh. Say COP of 3.5 on coldest days , 90% gas efficiency would be 18kWh of electricity for the heating; so 33kWh total. Say 28kWh capacity if the charging is being done overnight (while charging use grid electricity in the house). But 2/3 of the year 12kWh would do. In round money that would be 2 Tesla powerwalls instead of 1; how many years would it take to pay for the second one when it's only actually used a few months of the year?
How close is the heatpump app compaired to the energy moniter on the other days? Is it in your example reporting 18kwh and of that 18kwh 4kwh was used for water. So actually 18kwh reported isn't actually far away from the real figure of 18.51kwh.
So just to be clear my energy monitor is the combined power of both the hot water and the heating system. That’s what showed 18.51 kWh the Daikin app reported 18 and four for a total of 22 kWh that’s a significant delta. Unfortunately the app only gives you two days to compare before it defaults to weak and year so there’s no way to step back day by day however yesterday which was very mild in comparison showed 15 for heating and 4 for hot water on the app for a total of 19 kWh and the Shelly showed a total of 14.99 for both, a difference of 4 kWh. I double checked to make sure that the hot water wasn’t being recorded on the booster side of things, but that showed a total consumption of 3 W for the whole day so there is a disparity in the data in the app. I really think this is down just to the way that they are rounding up the numbers into whole numbers over a period of time this is causing the discrepancy.
@@JonathanTracey If you look at the Daikin MMI unit information/energy usage you can see up to seven days for 'this week' (Mon-Fri), and the seven days for previous week. The data can be for heating (Sun symbol), hot water(Shower symbol), or the combined total (Sigma symbol). The 'Produced Heat' can also be viewed similarly. Unfortunately both are still to that 1kW resolution, although totals for each since installation can also be seen and over time may give better accuracy as to SCOP to date.
I’ve just moved into a house with 2 Dakin ashp units, so I’m guessing total 6kw for hot water and heating. It’s got to winter and I reckon it’s costing like £5-6 a day to run the house. Don’t know if the setup is wrong but it’s appearing to costing more than Gas central heating so far
If you didn’t set them up, I would get a heat pump expert to come look at the setup. It’s possible the config is off. Also are you on a tariff that is designed for this kind of usage?
Yep, there are some great deals out there at the moment. I’m happy to stay with octopus because they’re smart tariffs work for me but you do you and all credit to you :-)
One way to correct for the short data period is to look at degree days. Ie. The colder days you use more energy. A degree day is a whole day where the temperature difference between outside and inside is 1c. Ie you want 21 but its 20c out. So 1 degree day. But if its on avg 0c and you want 21c , that's 21c etc for all in-between temps. So if you look uo your annual degree days for your area then compare that vs your week. You should get some good figures. Saw this first on Tom Bray's channel if you want to get a better explanation
Thanks will take a look, as I said this is just week one data, once i have more and a full winter under my belt it will be much more accurate. Will checkout Toms channel, thx
yes the Shelly has two channels, so I can monitor both. So far the immersion has only come on once for its weekly Legionella cycle to make sure no nasties are growing in the tank.
We had octopus survey our home and said we couldn't have one as it wouldn't be able to heat the space. We use 1000 litres of oil for heat and hot water every 18 months so the oil and house insulation is very economical?
@JonathanTracey sort of, we have an old cottage but it's been insulated throughout (50mm Celotex wall insulation) We have a large kitchen extension built this year with 150mm cavities, 250mm roof insulation yet its 13x5m and vaulted roof which was their worry. They said it wouldn't be a good idea to use a heat pump, we would need the largest Heatpump they do and would need to change all the plumbing and Rads so they won't be offering it to us. Location of the HP was also a worry as it would be a long run to the only location they would fit it.
@_Dougaldog they never provided the heat loss survey, just said they wouldnt advise installing a heat pump over the phone the day after. Now he did say he could alter the figures to make it work as we were just on the limit but said the Heat pump would be a 12 or 17KW I think, but with the prices at the time being 43p/kw hour he said oil would be cheaper, as we would need to make alterations to the heating system, and dig a trench through the garden to the location of the heatpump. Oil seems to be so far really economical compared to our old Gas boiler. In winter with the house set to 19 degrees and heating the 230 litre water tank for 2 bathrooms we use £20-50 oil per month .
John did you get the snow today? If you did please post your results for that day specifically, I’m trying to compare it against the r290 Mitsubishi multi split in -5 c temps , granted my one was two 11kwh but I got a kwh usage using ct clamp monitor of 26kwh to heat and warm 200 litres of water , my Panasonic branded Ono was a a rated and had a heat loss of 3kwh a day , it kept us in hot water for the 3 days without power , and a Panasonic air to air unit same condition when the power came back used 23kwh to heat for the day . Using 34c air
@ oh ok if you do get a snow drop please record the details for that day 24 h period specially . Now I’m back in the U.K. most of the time I’m trying to size up if it’s worth it , as I haven’t had much joy us side with my troubled institution so an really trying to find worst case scenario as described above to compare it too.
It will depend on the ev charger you use and your cars, but I have a Zappi and two EVs with intelligent octopus go. The real benefit of that is that Octopus turns on the cheap rates and the car charger even if the car is already charged and I can get as much as 10 hours a day of cheap rate electricity. I only have 12.6kw home batteries, but with the cheap rates and some clever home assistant scripts I can top up the batteries during the daytime cheap periods. You don’t get them every day, but probably 4-5 days a week and that all adds up. Plus I got my solar first, so I get FIT payments even if I don’t export any solar so I’m currently using around 5.2Mw py, which at peak rate should cost around £1352, but I average about 10p per kWh so instead only about £520, and with about £380 a year FIT payments my electricity for a 4 bed house, 2 EVs costs me about £140 per year! Just shows how much investing in renewables pays off. Just need to get the heat pump in now to get gas’s turned off and make sure real dent in my energy costs.
The intelligent tariff gives you additional charge periods during the day though, but only if it thinks your car is plugged in….that’s my magic sauce to maximising the battery usage.
Does that monitor you plugged in monitor the elements on the cylinder as ultimately that is what will kick in when the heatpump can’t generate the heat required to warm the cylinder.
yes the Shelly Pro has two CT clamps and can monitor both. not run into a situation yet it’s been needed, at least-3c outside our hot water was 47 degrees more than hot enough for a good shower
That’s good to know. Many horror stories you read is that the heat pumps are not enough a the heating elements are always on to top up the hot water/heating.
if setup right they work (from my 1 weeks experiance) mine is designed with a flow temperature of 50 degrees, I like my hot water at 43, so its more than enough.
It would be interesting to see what octopus recommend for the temp of the storage cylinder especially with the risks of legionella below a certain temp.
For those that think that heatpump are a scam, they should look at Norway. 60% of houses there use heatpumps. Sweden 43% and Finland 41. Surely, it is impossible to scam that many people in those countries?
But the UK has a one of a kind climate that happens nowhere else which means heat pumps for some reason don't work. At least that's what the TH-cam comments keep telling me. 😂
@@JonathanTraceyI wonder how many of these nay sayers are working in an office with warm air blowing, not realising that it is more than likely a heat pump. Commercial buildings have been heated/cooled by heat pumps for decades.
@@JonathanTracey It's different types of heat pumps for different climates. Scandinavia has more stringent building regulations for insulation. It's possible to fit a heat pump in all types of buildings in the UK but in general the older the building the greater the cost as older building have a greater heat loss and often do require greater modification of existing heating systems etc. In many houses a place has to be found for some form of hot water tank, which is not required with gas combi boilers and is a popular method of heating hot water in the UK. Add batteries to the cost of installation and in a fairly modern house the overall pay back may be 5 to 10 years. In a older house the pay-back may be closer to 20 years by which time many components may require replacement hence no savings at all. Also factor in annual maintenance checks which appear to be more expensive than those on gas boilers. This is also assuming that when enough people adopt electric central heating and millions more are charging EVs overnight that there is going to be a 4:1 difference in peak and off-peak electricity. There may be no such thing as off peak electricity. It all really comes down to the house and a trustworthy heat survey from a reputable company. Do your own research and avoid the companies set up to scam the grant money available. I see from further comments that there is also solar installed so some of the figures quoted for the pay-back are not just for the installation of the heat pump alone but actually rely heavily on the investment of a battery and solar. No battery and the cost of the electricity would be the peak time cost when the heating was on and not based on overnight costs when the battery was being charged.
My brother lives in Norway thier houses are insulated to within an inch of their life, he has a single air to air heat pump. It gets to -40 Our houses are drafty s holes with inefficient water based convection systems Simples @BenIsInSweden
Can I ask how much battery capacity you have? I have a similar battery+ev+octopus go set up but if a air pump uses 15kw per day then my battery is nowhere near big enough.
Thanks for the video . Couple of questions . Why not tabulate and display your numbers , whilst stating assupmtions . During the summer months my gas for water and cooking is around £10 Month ( excluding standing charge ) so i find £2 a day assuption interesting. Why have you not included the battery in your assest list /cost ( as i think it was part of the advantage you declared ) . As you also have differing figures for the amount of electric used , why not show the figures using both measurement methods ? . Also it would maybe drop out if displayed but how much of your saving relies on a cheap tariff for electric . Also i know for certain i wont be saving £600 plus as my yearly gas bill is less than that including standing charge . But cheers for the obvious effort involved in presenting this project.
Thanks for the feedback, will try and improve it when I have more data to report. My savings always rely on cheap electricity but these type of tariffs are common in the uk, and have been for 50 plus years so don’t see them going away any time soon. In the summer I don’t use the grid hardly at all, we generate huge surpluses. My yearly gas bill was about £1000 so that will go away fully by middle of next year. Will see if I can Improve the numbers for you next time.
@JonathanTracey again those electricy surplusses , will be associated with a asset cost . At 15 p /kwh equates to £150 / mw considerably in excess of commercial power producers. Thanks for the response
I'm not sure that level of calculation is somethign I am capable of, I'm a tech guy not an accountant but will try and do my best to cover all aspects.
That's exactly the same way I would set our system up. Large battery, import all the energy at night and then run the whole house through the day. One question I have is this. Imagine the grid goes down and you have a huge amount of battery stored energy, could you switch off the grid, plug in an EV to any socket- set it to discharge (I have an MG4) - would the car make the house inverter "think" the grid was still up and then allow the whole house to continue to run off the batteries. That would emulate a V2H set up from a V2L EV...The car might also take up any demand spikes the home inverter and batteries could not cope with? I know you could have a automatic isolation switch - just wondering if there is another way to use the car battery if there is a prolonged electricity outage
So we can run off grid with our batteries but our cars don’t support V2G or V2L so we can use them to supply the home. But two,of my batteries are mobile and can be charged from a ev charger, so in a real emergency I would goto a public charger, fill the batteries and bring them home and plug them into the house.
@@JonathanTracey What's the make/model and capacity of your mobile batteries, would it be feasible to use them to charge an EV for those with no home charging available ?
abosolutely, we have 3 x 9.7kw SolarEdge batteries and 7.2kw of Ecoflow Delta Pros, all feeding the house. in teh summer we regulary charge the cars from them, the thing that stops most people doing it is the inverter. Lots of installs only have 3.6kw inverter. We made that mistake a few years ago but swapped it out this year for a 10kw beast.
It's potentially extremely dangerous to "fool the system into thinking it's still powered from the grid". If it starts exporting when the grid is down, the DNO engineers trying to fix the problem will get a very nasty shock, and once they trace where the current came from, you'll finish up in court. 😐
I have box called a backup interface that physically disconnects the grid, it then operates in island mode, using an earth we had driven into the ground. So no danger to anyone downstream
Id cook in your house. We fuxualte beween 16 and 18 in our house. The nest has been trying to cook us the last few days, its a bit to clever for ite own good.
Energy prices just keep being driven higher by the net zero zealots and 22Kwh per day is massive amounts as we only use 150 per month + approx 12 cheap rate, in October as no more recent readings are available on my Eon account. 22Kwh × 30 days = 660 × 30p = £198? Ours is £97 at the moment and £250 in credit.
The net zero zealots sounds like a club. I should be a member of I use nearly 3 times as much energy as you do running to electric cars charging my batteries and the Heat Pump and I pay about 1/4 of what you do, so does that make me a zealot?
How do you manage to change your home battery and Ev at the same time off peak,doesn’t the battery charge at only 3.5 watts an hour not leaving enough time to charge the Ev in 5 hrs as you can’t charge both together as I was lend to believe?
I have a 10kw inverter so it can pull in 10kw every hour. You can charge both at the same time but you need to be aware of your incoming supply fuse size. Mine is 100amp which is 24kw. I did a video a few weeks ago about changing tariff where I listed all the things we charge together and how much power they use.
I have an 80amp fuse and charge my 18kwh battery and EV every night no problem. Great video btw the internet needs more facts about heat pumps to battle the FUD.
@@pmac6584that’s interesting. Do you have solar? I’m planning to get a heat pump from Octopus. I’m wondering about the viability of getting battery storage as well and getting rid of gas i.e. heat pump + battery
@@gerryking4346yes I have 4kw solar, ev, lux/hanchu battery, ripple shares and fully electric kitchen. I have my name down with octopus for a heat pump. I have been running my gas boiler at 45 degrees to prove to myself that I can heat the house with low temperature flow. So far it is ok.
Your comment about intelligent go forcing you to charge when octopus want isn’t correct. Intelligent you get 23.30-5.30 a longer period of time to charge, and you can fill your batteries up and run ashp during that time for 1p a kWh less. I’d definitely recommend you look at switching as it will make a difference to your bills
What I was saying is that on the intelligent version of go, octopus defines when your car will charge even if it’s just between the six hour period that you mentioned. Because at max capacity my house could draw more than 100 A, I want to be in full control of that schedule and having octopus decide to extend it which they did last year when I was on intelligent could mean that too many things are pulling power at the same time. I’m currently on the standard version of octopus go which gives me five hours instead of six and it cost me 8.5p per a kWh instead of 7 per kWh. We fully charge our home batteries in about three hours so having an extra hour would make no difference to me whatsoever and the very small decrease in price would also make next to no difference maybe a £ across the whole month.
Blimey, you use more electrons in one week than I use in a month and a much larger household. That’s what I don’t get with those whom say they are trying to be carbon neutral, when I looked at the national grid last week there was only 13% of the grid coming from the renewables. That means that whilst I don’t have an electrified house, I actually generate far less CO2 than those whom claim to be green, which is rather ironic.
Never claimed to be green or carbon neutral. My objective is to be net zero, basically my energy bills for the year are nil or negative. The route to net zero involves a lot of green tech. two cars and a heatpump alone will use more power than most homes but given in the summer months that is all free power from sunlight and the excess pays for what I import in the winter. Hope that makes more sense for you
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
The cold week has made me nervous for the heatpump at mums using defrost cycles and burning up to 9kw. Her house is big and the cost with batteries and octopus go is on par with gas on the bad weeks. The good weeks its using between 1-1.5kw and saving me 100s monthly. Very, very happy and its not half as bad as the fear mongers made out :)
I think the way to look at it is over the long-term rather than on individual days or weeks, yes there are going to be days where you’re going to consume large amounts of electricity but like today where it’s 14° and windy and my heat pump has consumed less than 1 kWh for the whole day so far but the house is still a nice 20°. over the course of winter you’re going to consume more but on days when it’s not cold, you’ll probably consume significantly less. It really depends if the average is gonna be less than the cost of gas. I don’t have enough data from my system yet to be able to validate that conclusion, but that’s what I’m hearing from people who have had these things for a long period of time.
Thank you so much for reporting your experience! It definitely works for you, for sure! Mostly my house hovers around 18-19C so if yours can do 22C over the cold snap, that gives me a lot of confidence. It's good to know the Daikin Altherma overestimates its consumption too; I can plan for getting a Shelly if I want to monitor that. I already have a Shelly for grid and bidirectional EVSE monitoring.
Thanks for watching and glad you found it useful. Let me know if you need more info
Getting a room up to 22 with modern flow boilers weather there heat pump or gas is taxing.
I have a modern eco boiler which is a lot lower temp than my old one we use a secondary heat source on cold evenings as in a log burner.
22 is way to hot for the whole building
Nice one Jonathan, I stuck a Shelly em on my HP feed and have similar figures, we have 1 ev, 12kWh battery and solar. I choose to get rid of my gas altogether and fitted a plug and play induction hob. I was always a gas hob cooker person but since getting my Neff hob its a game changer. Also intelligent octopus gives me the extra slots when my battery runs out, however in process of upgrading my battery capacity. Just waiting on a small form PC to arrive so to get me hooked up with Home Assistant which with all my tech in the house will be an brain storming week or two!
sounds like your a step ahead of me, we’re going to do the kitchen next year and an induction hob is 1st on the list
for home assists i bought one of the home assists green appliances works a treat
Thanks for sharing your heat pump journey with us, JT. My own journey could follow next year now the arbitrary 1 metre rule is being scrapped. I'm fascinated by your Shelly energy monitor. A video tutorial on how to install and use would be great ;)
Its not a difficult install but it should be installed by a qualified electrician (which I am not) although its a pretty simple install (details on the shelly sight) I have a complex electrical setup and prefer to have qualified people do that kind of work for me.
For a US perspective, I replaced a 20+ year 3 ton old gas furnace + A/C combo plus gas hot water tank with a 2.5 ton Mitsubishi Electric HyperHeat heat pump and a Stiebol Eltron Tempra 15 Plus instant hot water unit completely electrifying my place. It wasn't cheap (nearly $17K) but my operational costs for heating/cooling and hot water (admitted just for myself since I live alone) has averaged under $0.50 a day. The winter lows here are usually near 0C (the last week has been around -3C). The summer highs average about 38C but rarely reach 45C. During the winter in the day time I keep the inside around 18C but at night I allow it to drop to around 15C. In the summer I keep the place around 25C. My daily electricity costs for the past year average to about $1.50. That is 50% or more less than what my neighbors are paying. When the heat pump is on, I average about 10 kWh used daily instead of the 4 kWh when it's not in use..
Thanks for the perspective, a friend in Colorado has just installed a big solar system, I didn’t know about all the inspections needed from the city before he could turn it on
@@JonathanTracey I'm currently having a 9kW solar system with two PowerWall 3s installed.
We have just had solar and battery installed. We get 11,000Kwh a year to play with so I am looking into a heat pump and water system also. Thanks for the video
sounds good, you will probably get more than you think from the solar. look forward to hearing how it foes
Thank you for posting these vids. I’m not there yet and I will know more once I have the survey done once i have decided to move forward. I am not doubting users experiences. If I can change at a decent cost as my boiler will need replacing, have a comfort level befitting my age and have a reasonable saving, then it’s only a greater power than I that will need convincing. We had warm air at my previous home and loved it, we now live in a dormer bungalow with a combi that I am getting used to now the weather is changing. 👍🏻. Government needs to do more not by taxing boiler manufacturers.
Thanks I am sure the costs will come down, Octopus will be driving down teh cost of the Cosy 6 and possibly other models, this may make it easier for everyone who wants one to jump in. The start is to stop installing boilers in new builds, I believe that is immienant then you start adding tax to new installs in existing properties, while removing tax on heatpumps.
It would be good to see updates of the discrepancies between the Daikin reported energy usage against the actual usage as reported by your more accurate measures. Octopus installed a heat pump here in November '23 but I have only the Daikin app's reports of its energy use. Thanks for the interesting videos.
sure I will do an update once i have months worth of data so its more useful, Thanks for watching the videos I really appreciate it.
We have IOG and charge our EV when we want to, which is only during the 7p. night rate. You can turn off the Octopus flexible time chargung.
Yep but I’m a little concerned with two EVs and batteries we may transgress the T&Cs and octopus may put us a standard tariff. From what I see IOG is only supposed to be for single supported evs or chargers. Now I’m probably worrying about nothing but for 1.5p a kWh I’m happy to stay on this side of this side of the line
Very interesting, I was wondering on how the payback and running costs would compare for a similar size house with no solar or battery storage? I also suspect off peak cheap rates will begin to disappear as electricity demand over night must be increasing all the time with more EV's both commercial and domestic, ASHP and batteries being charged. One day off peak demand could be greater than daytime command especially with the reduction of industries in the UK.
not sure i can answer that without more data, but don’t think we’re in danger of seeing cheap rates disappear anytime soon. The last 24 hours as a good example, when the wind blows we have so much excess power in the grid we have zero or negative prices. just today we had free power from 7am to midday
Thanks for posting great footage. Could you possibly include some content of the heat pump during normal operation on cold periods so can get a feel for any noise generated during normal operation.
Yes abosolutely, I missed it this time as it was defrosted before I had the chance to setup the camera to catch the defrost cycle. However i am sure it catch it sometime soon. For noise I will borrow a friends calibrated noise meter so I can test at different distances - watch for a video soon
@@JonathanTracey thats fantastic. Look forward to the footage.
Good info JT. Are you going ditch your gas hob & gas meter to save even more on the Gas standing charges which alone would add up to £115p/a?
Yes we’re renovating the kitchen next year, so will goto an induction hob and ditch the gas for good
Wow. Your kWh is more on average than my usage. On my absolute worst day last week was almost 1/10th of your average daily usage and that day I was running dehumidifiers.
yes we’re a heavy user but there are a few reason, every day in winter we charge two electric cars, plus we fill up our grid charged batteries for the home. this runs the house all day and we export any excess we don’t use. this gives us a bit back each evening.
your external fan unit is pouring out a plume of cold air into an enclosed space whic h compromises the HP efficiency . It is better to raise it up so that it doesnt suck in its own exhaust
We did a smoke test and coupled with the prevailing winds. There is no issues. The cold air is being evacuated away and not being pulled back into the evaporator even when there is zero wind there is sufficient space that nothing is getting pulled back in.
@@JonathanTracey Im surprised by that - I am fitting an air to air only aircon heater unit and am raising the external fan more than a metre above my small enclosed back garden in London to prevent exhaust recirculation
i have about 3-4 meters either side of the fan and 1.6m in front, with prevailing wind (we have 5 miles of flat fields begin our house) it has no problems circulating. the guys used a small smoke pellet, that shows how the air is moving, on the day we tested it was a close to still air as possible and there was still a circulation
@@JonathanTracey ok you are in a fortuinate location and have done a lot of homework but this is a poorly understood area - I have even had an installer say that it didnt happen
Basically the fan outputs X kw of cooling power (heatpump in heating mode) where X is the COP-1 which can be a very significant effect depending on the design of the whole physical layout
I use IO go once a month as per T&C's and then control the charging myself for the rest of the month
I used to do this when I was on intelligent last year, but now we are too EV household officially it’s against the terms and conditions. For the extra 1.5p per kilowatt I would rather not annoy them. I really don’t want them dumping me onto a standard tariff because I’ve transgressed some rule. I’ll probably stay on go until the end of February and then switch back to agile as that give give me the lowest daytime cost for the very small amounts of power that we import and the rest will be offset by generation as we head into the summer.
Im getting a heat pump installed next week 🎉 i have been writing some code to figure out how much the past year would have cost had i had a heat pump using my consumption data from the Octopus API. As well as the standing charge for gas thst id save, it was a good 10% less than the gas cost, based on a pessimistic SCOP (and adjusted COP throughout the year).
i’m doing something similar in home assistant, once i have enough data plan to automate changes to the heat pump via that. did consider going starting to the API but my python is a little rusty 👍
great follow up - especially the 3rd party consumption monitoring
nearly wobbled back to the intall idea, i have insufficient additional storage to warrant excessive deep cycle use for the finacial return. in winter my 10kW does 2 charges daily and only retains 60% SOC, giving only 4kW to export. vid made me think , taa
it takes a little mgmt and on some days I have nothing left to export. But on days like today when octopus are giving me free power from 3 to 5pm I am exporting 15kwh right now so I ready to charge up with 20kw at 3pm when its free :-)
Really good series of factual videos, and now we get to the really interesting part, how much they cost to run over a period of time. You will continue to get naysayers who seem to want to disparage anything to do with renewables. Those same people in the main also overlook you are spending your own money to do what you deem important. In the end all who commit to renewable use do it for their own reasons. For climate deniers that is an especially difficult concept to grasp because in their own minds THEY are right despite all the clear evidence to the contrary.
Very helpful as we are currently sitting on PV, EV and 14kw of batteries with more batteries in the pipeline. We could go ASHP now but with a three year old combi, unless the amount to change after the 7.5k grant is absolutely minimal it’s probably something that we can wait upon. Technology is improving so quickly that improvements and greater efficiencies will follow, plus hopefully as more and more ASHP’s are fitted the band of installers will gain experience too. 13:37
Thanks appreciate the kind words, yes if your boiler is only 3 years old its going to be hard to justify. Hopefully if companies like octopus can drive down the costs with their Cosy range of heatpumps it may become more viable for you.
I have same unit and over last 24 hours it's used 22.5 kWh for heating and hot water, 15 hours of that below zero Celsius and ten hours of that between -2 and -3C in N.E Scotland.
On a standard 25p/kWh tariff that would cost £6.23 which includes daily rate (61p), or on my HP tariff of 14p/kWh that's £3.76.
At -3C external, living room was 19.3C, bathroom 22.6C, Hall 17.5C, bedroom 18.6C all this achieved at 36C fixed flow temperature and six defrost cycles
1960's two bedroom semi, very modest insulation and double glazed.
Since end of June I've used 977kWh for heating @ hot water. (as measured using Heatpumpmonitor supplied Pi2 unit with CT clamps and thermometers).
I’m using about 4kwh per days for hot water, we may dial,back the reheat function a bit in a week or two and see what difference that makes
I have the same heatpump and when heating hot water sometimes it will use the emersion to get the last few degrees into the tank. So to be accurate if your tank has an emersion u would have to monitor that aswell.
yes, the monitoring device that we put into the consumer unit has two channels. So it monitors both the heat pump and the booster. We haven’t had any to use it yet other than for the weekly legionella cycle.
I have same but usually only heat water to 43C for a nice hot bath or shower, or 60C (less efficient, takes longer & lower COP) for an occasional Legionella cycle, the unit has a small 'booster' heater which is used to take water to 65C if required, booster heater function can be disabled in MMI if I remember correctly. The immersion in the HWC could further boost it, but I can't think of a need to do so.
I also disabled the 'keep water at same temperature' function on my Mixergy Cylinder, it would have maintained that using immersion.
I disabled the built in control as I have a solar diverter, so I have a scheduled legionella cycle
We have same system, surprised that the house temp varies so much. Ours is a constant 20 deg. (Our desired temp) - with a current cop of around 3ish
You need a cop of around 4 for a heat pump to be cheaper than UK gas unless you also add the cost of a battery to your initial investment.
@@AlanMacleod-hv5ee Agree
the temperature varies because we’re in and out a lot, every time we let the dogs out we lose a bit of heat and our thermostat is in the hall near the front door. i’m going to be adding small room sensors so i can monitor temperatures all over the house together
i don’t have enough data yet to get a reasonably accurate COP but soon as my electric bill for the month is less than i was paying for gas and electricity then i am happy 👍
@@JonathanTracey keep it to yourself, but on the MMI under information, then energy data will give you an idea of your COP since instalation (its all done on the left dial) today was 11 in and 34 out, all at 7p, I have everything setup on exit temp on the ASHP (currently at 45 Deg), with no temp comp.
Could i also the dates of the week involved , and you calculated cop over the time scale , water + heating combined, cheers
Yep didn’t think it was worth adding COP at this stage need more data
How have you connected in your Eddi, is the heat pump boost heat relay output (230v) connected to the esense input on the relay board ?
yes it’s wired through the eddi, so it can still boost and use excess solar, however starting to think the eddi may be redundant, makes no sense to use 1kw of spare power via eddie, when 1kw via the heat pump would give 3-4x the hot water
Just waiting for the Octopus Survey, Have had the quote of £3000 for our small bungalow, Have a10kw battery and 4Kw of solar along with 2 EV's . I keep our Snug nice and toasty as I make use of the night time GO rate to charge our Storage Heater which will last all day keeping the room warm, the other item keeping the room warm Is an Oxygen Concentrator (300) watts running all day as I am on Oxygen and that's free to run as the installer pay back the electricity costs for running it (Free Heat)
What model of storage heaters do you have, thinking of one for my conservatory as we can't extend the wet system into it.
@@JonathanTracey Made by Newlec, 3kw with 2 controls heat in and heat out when needed, Has large silica bricks inside and weighs about 120kg, size is 800 x 600 mm also put one in our conservatory a 1.7kw model these were used on the old economy 7 tarrif and are about 15 years old but still in good order, Don't waste big money on the latest one's as they don't work as good (Clay Filled)
Good concise video. Are you happy with your COP at the zero or nearly zero outside temps ?
Yes seems to be around 4, will need a little more data to get better numbers, the install team suggested waiting for a few months before measuring its COP, to average out the warm and cold days
@JonathanTracey currently on cosy tariff, and exploiting the 3xcharge at 12p , the additional investment for more than the 15kwh battery was too much. So effective 45kwh on a 7kw arotherm. Looking forward to the data.
Hi Jon Les here just back from holidays and you now have your HP installed so I have some catching up to do but I Agee the Dailkin app is not as good as it could be and I think I might get one of them energy monitors things into mine, so was it a DIY job ? Or expensive? How you a video on how it’s fitted.i have no gas now but my consumption has shoot up for electricity but not had time has yet to have a good look at the set up as I have been away for 3 weeks.
Thanks
Hi Les, hope you had a good holiday. The Shelly should be installed by a qualifed electrician, and although I am capable I would not do it myself. I used a local company called Artisan Electrics who I get in to do anything that involves the consumer units, that way I can be sure its done properly and to code. Small things i do myself but not that.
Once you're on intelligent you can just override or ignore it entirely. I got signed onto it for the lower price but it doesn't work with two EVs, so I just disconnected the car from it. I didn't get kicked off. Worst they can do is move you back. I still tell the charger to favour green times, so my conscience is clear.
for the very small increase i will probably just stay on go. i did as you describe last year with. no issues but i don’t want them suddenly saying i’m breaking the T&Cs and drop me on a standard tariff #thatwouldbebad
What charger have you got? We have 2 EVs and it works fine with our Ohme Home Pro. I don't bother to change the cars over in the Ohme app, so our Zoe always goes to 100% whereas the Tesla gets to about 80%.
Remember that the intelligent sessions are billed by the half hour, so if the car finishes charging at 2 mins past the half hour, you have until the next half hour on cheap rates.
Forgot to say we also have a 13 kWh battery and ASHP!
We have two Zappies and they will only support one, so we have to do it via the cars, and only one is supported
how are you getting on with your ASHP, how long hav eyou had it?
Thanks for a great insight. We've just had a Adlar heatpump fitted 14Kw . Seems fine except very high daily cost, £15! We are on the Octopus special heatpump tariff ( 3 cheap sessions a day ) Do you keep your pump all the time, do you adjust the TRVs to suit each room and what storage battery do you have and how much did it cost ? We have a large detached 5bedroom house with 10 solar panels and one electric car. Thanks for your super easily understood video. Roger
we are still in the experimental stage, seeing what works best for our home. today was the first very mild day and the heat pump consumed almost nothing so far. we haven’t adjusted our trvs as the installer said that could make the pump cycle on and off more often, so trying to find an even temperature that everyone likes
Great to see it's making a difference already. It would have cost you 2.5k ISH to replace your boiler so your return should factor that in.
Also Intelligent Go would let you get the cheaper rate till up to 11am in the morning. Might be worth having a second look as we've not noticed any real problem with charging our 2 EVs
to be honest extra hours won’t really help as my batteries and evs charge in about 3 hours, so extra hours cheap rate don’t really add much to the equation. wrt the boiler yes our plumber friend is going to give me a quote for would have done it for at mates rates, because that’s what i would have actually paid. will factor into next set of numbers
Good start especially since it was much colder this last week. Let's get some more figures to get a better picture over the year. Does the heat pump cool too for the summer?
Yep, data is going to be our friend for the next year. No, for reasons but I don’t really understand the UK government will not give you a grant towards your Heat Pump if it has the ability to call your house in the summer. Basically, I think they’re worried that all the gains from moving to low carbon heating will be wiped out if you use it to call your house in the summer. For me that’s not too much of a problem we generally only have one to 2 days a year that it really needs air-conditioning and I have a portable unit that will work just fine for those days.
IOG has a dumb mode which behaves like Go from 11:30-5:30, worth switching for a larger window and cheaper rate if you have an EV/charger you can connect!
Did you need to pay extra for the brickwork to be done?
Yeah, I know IOG has an extra hour but to be honest, I don’t need it. Most of my stuff is charged in the first 3 to 3 1/2 hours of the window so having an extra hour really doesn’t do me any benefit. The brickwork was part of the boiler removal so included in the price they just didn’t realise how big the hole was until they put the boiler out apparently older boilers have larger events for the flue.
@ interesting! I’ve seen a few other installs that were just fitted with a plastic cover, with yours obviously being preferential - maybe it varies by area!
there wasn’t any discussion about other options as soon as rh boiler came out they said, we need a brick layer to fix this, will make some phone calls. maybe if it’s a smaller hole they have other options
Helpful video. As you already had home batteries installed I guess its fine to discount their cost from the payback period. But someone getting this installed from scratch would need to spend how much on 37kwh battery storage to run the system all day on stored energy?
Battery prices are coming down, but when I had mine installed it was about 24k for three 9.7 and the other 7kw was about 5k
My wife's family live in Sweden. My farther in law heats his whole (super insulated) house on 1 air-to-air heat pump, and my brother in law has a ground source heat pump that has saved him a fortune. My rough calculations suggest I'd need 2 of GivEnergy's 13.5kwh batteries at £7.2k a pop on top of the heat pump install. I'd do it tomorrow if the sums added up.
The difficult calculations is, should I buy now what does it add up to, what if I wait for battery prices to fall,how much would I have made if I bought when I originally looked at it. Sometimes you just have to go for it
@@AndrewSmith-ih7sl I suppose it needs some careful calculation as to what level of batteries really makes most sense. 100% battery shifted heating which is only required a few months of the year might take a very long time to pay back. On the coldest days I need 70+kWh of gas for heating, and my electricity load is something like 15kWh. Say COP of 3.5 on coldest days , 90% gas efficiency would be 18kWh of electricity for the heating; so 33kWh total. Say 28kWh capacity if the charging is being done overnight (while charging use grid electricity in the house). But 2/3 of the year 12kWh would do. In round money that would be 2 Tesla powerwalls instead of 1; how many years would it take to pay for the second one when it's only actually used a few months of the year?
Ive just changed to Tomato Energy....5.5p off peak per kWh
what are they like to deal with, always a little suspicious of new small companies after they all went bankrupt a few years back
How close is the heatpump app compaired to the energy moniter on the other days? Is it in your example reporting 18kwh and of that 18kwh 4kwh was used for water. So actually 18kwh reported isn't actually far away from the real figure of 18.51kwh.
So just to be clear my energy monitor is the combined power of both the hot water and the heating system. That’s what showed 18.51 kWh the Daikin app reported 18 and four for a total of 22 kWh that’s a significant delta. Unfortunately the app only gives you two days to compare before it defaults to weak and year so there’s no way to step back day by day however yesterday which was very mild in comparison showed 15 for heating and 4 for hot water on the app for a total of 19 kWh and the Shelly showed a total of 14.99 for both, a difference of 4 kWh. I double checked to make sure that the hot water wasn’t being recorded on the booster side of things, but that showed a total consumption of 3 W for the whole day so there is a disparity in the data in the app. I really think this is down just to the way that they are rounding up the numbers into whole numbers over a period of time this is causing the discrepancy.
@@JonathanTracey
If you look at the Daikin MMI unit information/energy usage you can see up to seven days for 'this week' (Mon-Fri), and the seven days for previous week.
The data can be for heating (Sun symbol), hot water(Shower symbol), or the combined total (Sigma symbol). The 'Produced Heat' can also be viewed similarly.
Unfortunately both are still to that 1kW resolution, although totals for each since installation can also be seen and over time may give better accuracy as to SCOP to date.
thanks will take a look, i can’t believe there isn’t a web interface for data nerds on these units, i almost feel daikin are trying to hide something
I’ve just moved into a house with 2 Dakin ashp units, so I’m guessing total 6kw for hot water and heating. It’s got to winter and I reckon it’s costing like £5-6 a day to run the house. Don’t know if the setup is wrong but it’s appearing to costing more than Gas central heating so far
If you didn’t set them up, I would get a heat pump expert to come look at the setup. It’s possible the config is off. Also are you on a tariff that is designed for this kind of usage?
e.on drive v4 is a good option at mo 12-7am 6.7p and the export is 16.5p
Yep, there are some great deals out there at the moment. I’m happy to stay with octopus because they’re smart tariffs work for me but you do you and all credit to you :-)
One way to correct for the short data period is to look at degree days.
Ie. The colder days you use more energy. A degree day is a whole day where the temperature difference between outside and inside is 1c. Ie you want 21 but its 20c out. So 1 degree day. But if its on avg 0c and you want 21c , that's 21c etc for all in-between temps.
So if you look uo your annual degree days for your area then compare that vs your week. You should get some good figures.
Saw this first on Tom Bray's channel if you want to get a better explanation
Thanks will take a look, as I said this is just week one data, once i have more and a full winter under my belt it will be much more accurate. Will checkout Toms channel, thx
Are you monitoring BOTH your heat pump consumption AND your immersion heater?
yes the Shelly has two channels, so I can monitor both. So far the immersion has only come on once for its weekly Legionella cycle to make sure no nasties are growing in the tank.
@JonathanTracey I have the same. Just saying you do need to include that in your energy calculations. The Altherma includes it.
Yeah, didn’t include at this time as we haven’t used it, but I will ensure it’s included in any future calculations
We had octopus survey our home and said we couldn't have one as it wouldn't be able to heat the space. We use 1000 litres of oil for heat and hot water every 18 months so the oil and house insulation is very economical?
Wow do you live in a very old property with poor insulation?
@JonathanTracey sort of, we have an old cottage but it's been insulated throughout (50mm Celotex wall insulation) We have a large kitchen extension built this year with 150mm cavities, 250mm roof insulation yet its 13x5m and vaulted roof which was their worry. They said it wouldn't be a good idea to use a heat pump, we would need the largest Heatpump they do and would need to change all the plumbing and Rads so they won't be offering it to us. Location of the HP was also a worry as it would be a long run to the only location they would fit it.
@@lerx75
Sounds like it was beyond their scope to do the task and turn a profit.
Did they provide heat loss calculation figures from their survey ?
@_Dougaldog they never provided the heat loss survey, just said they wouldnt advise installing a heat pump over the phone the day after. Now he did say he could alter the figures to make it work as we were just on the limit but said the Heat pump would be a 12 or 17KW I think, but with the prices at the time being 43p/kw hour he said oil would be cheaper, as we would need to make alterations to the heating system, and dig a trench through the garden to the location of the heatpump. Oil seems to be so far really economical compared to our old Gas boiler. In winter with the house set to 19 degrees and heating the 230 litre water tank for 2 bathrooms we use £20-50 oil per month .
John did you get the snow today? If you did please post your results for that day specifically, I’m trying to compare it against the r290 Mitsubishi multi split in -5 c temps , granted my one was two 11kwh but I got a kwh usage using ct clamp monitor of 26kwh to heat and warm 200 litres of water , my Panasonic branded Ono was a a rated and had a heat loss of 3kwh a day , it kept us in hot water for the 3 days without power , and a Panasonic air to air unit same condition when the power came back used 23kwh to heat for the day . Using 34c air
no nothing had a mild day around 14 right now, very windy but no snow
@ oh ok if you do get a snow drop please record the details for that day 24 h period specially . Now I’m back in the U.K. most of the time I’m trying to size up if it’s worth it , as I haven’t had much joy us side with my troubled institution so an really trying to find worst case scenario as described above to compare it too.
It will depend on the ev charger you use and your cars, but I have a Zappi and two EVs with intelligent octopus go. The real benefit of that is that Octopus turns on the cheap rates and the car charger even if the car is already charged and I can get as much as 10 hours a day of cheap rate electricity. I only have 12.6kw home batteries, but with the cheap rates and some clever home assistant scripts I can top up the batteries during the daytime cheap periods. You don’t get them every day, but probably 4-5 days a week and that all adds up. Plus I got my solar first, so I get FIT payments even if I don’t export any solar so I’m currently using around 5.2Mw py, which at peak rate should cost around £1352, but I average about 10p per kWh so instead only about £520, and with about £380 a year FIT payments my electricity for a 4 bed house, 2 EVs costs me about £140 per year! Just shows how much investing in renewables pays off. Just need to get the heat pump in now to get gas’s turned off and make sure real dent in my energy costs.
It’s the same for octopus go, you get 5hrs instead of 6, but can go gang busters using a s much as you can at the low price.
The intelligent tariff gives you additional charge periods during the day though, but only if it thinks your car is plugged in….that’s my magic sauce to maximising the battery usage.
Does that monitor you plugged in monitor the elements on the cylinder as ultimately that is what will kick in when the heatpump can’t generate the heat required to warm the cylinder.
yes the Shelly Pro has two CT clamps and can monitor both. not run into a situation yet it’s been needed, at least-3c outside our hot water was 47 degrees more than hot enough for a good shower
That’s good to know. Many horror stories you read is that the heat pumps are not enough a the heating elements are always on to top up the hot water/heating.
if setup right they work (from my 1 weeks experiance) mine is designed with a flow temperature of 50 degrees, I like my hot water at 43, so its more than enough.
It would be interesting to see what octopus recommend for the temp of the storage cylinder especially with the risks of legionella below a certain temp.
So mine is set to 43° with a recommendation that at least every two weeks you boost it to 65°. I currently have a schedule set to do that every week.
For those that think that heatpump are a scam, they should look at Norway. 60% of houses there use heatpumps. Sweden 43% and Finland 41. Surely, it is impossible to scam that many people in those countries?
But the UK has a one of a kind climate that happens nowhere else which means heat pumps for some reason don't work.
At least that's what the TH-cam comments keep telling me. 😂
They all say its a scam with no evidence, just their own "research" which when confronted with cold hard data shows they are just being foolish.
@@JonathanTraceyI wonder how many of these nay sayers are working in an office with warm air blowing, not realising that it is more than likely a heat pump. Commercial buildings have been heated/cooled by heat pumps for decades.
@@JonathanTracey It's different types of heat pumps for different climates. Scandinavia has more stringent building regulations for insulation. It's possible to fit a heat pump in all types of buildings in the UK but in general the older the building the greater the cost as older building have a greater heat loss and often do require greater modification of existing heating systems etc. In many houses a place has to be found for some form of hot water tank, which is not required with gas combi boilers and is a popular method of heating hot water in the UK. Add batteries to the cost of installation and in a fairly modern house the overall pay back may be 5 to 10 years. In a older house the pay-back may be closer to 20 years by which time many components may require replacement hence no savings at all. Also factor in annual maintenance checks which appear to be more expensive than those on gas boilers. This is also assuming that when enough people adopt electric central heating and millions more are charging EVs overnight that there is going to be a 4:1 difference in peak and off-peak electricity. There may be no such thing as off peak electricity. It all really comes down to the house and a trustworthy heat survey from a reputable company. Do your own research and avoid the companies set up to scam the grant money available. I see from further comments that there is also solar installed so some of the figures quoted for the pay-back are not just for the installation of the heat pump alone but actually rely heavily on the investment of a battery and solar. No battery and the cost of the electricity would be the peak time cost when the heating was on and not based on overnight costs when the battery was being charged.
My brother lives in Norway thier houses are insulated to within an inch of their life, he has a single air to air heat pump.
It gets to -40
Our houses are drafty s holes with inefficient water based convection systems
Simples @BenIsInSweden
Can I ask how much battery capacity you have? I have a similar battery+ev+octopus go set up but if a air pump uses 15kw per day then my battery is nowhere near big enough.
We have 37.5kwh of storage
@@JonathanTracey 😮
Ye my name is JT and I have a battery problem 😜
@@JonathanTracey😂😂😂
don’t tell my wife but i was looking at another ecoflow battery in the black friday sales 😇
Thanks for the video . Couple of questions . Why not tabulate and display your numbers , whilst stating assupmtions . During the summer months my gas for water and cooking is around £10 Month ( excluding standing charge ) so i find £2 a day assuption interesting. Why have you not included the battery in your assest list /cost ( as i think it was part of the advantage you declared ) . As you also have differing figures for the amount of electric used , why not show the figures using both measurement methods ? . Also it would maybe drop out if displayed but how much of your saving relies on a cheap tariff for electric . Also i know for certain i wont be saving £600 plus as my yearly gas bill is less than that including standing charge . But cheers for the obvious effort involved in presenting this project.
Thanks for the feedback, will try and improve it when I have more data to report. My savings always rely on cheap electricity but these type of tariffs are common in the uk, and have been for 50 plus years so don’t see them going away any time soon. In the summer I don’t use the grid hardly at all, we generate huge surpluses. My yearly gas bill was about £1000 so that will go away fully by middle of next year. Will see if I can Improve the numbers for you next time.
@JonathanTracey again those electricy surplusses , will be associated with a asset cost . At 15 p /kwh equates to £150 / mw considerably in excess of commercial power producers. Thanks for the response
I'm not sure that level of calculation is somethign I am capable of, I'm a tech guy not an accountant but will try and do my best to cover all aspects.
That's exactly the same way I would set our system up. Large battery, import all the energy at night and then run the whole house through the day. One question I have is this. Imagine the grid goes down and you have a huge amount of battery stored energy, could you switch off the grid, plug in an EV to any socket- set it to discharge (I have an MG4) - would the car make the house inverter "think" the grid was still up and then allow the whole house to continue to run off the batteries. That would emulate a V2H set up from a V2L EV...The car might also take up any demand spikes the home inverter and batteries could not cope with? I know you could have a automatic isolation switch - just wondering if there is another way to use the car battery if there is a prolonged electricity outage
So we can run off grid with our batteries but our cars don’t support V2G or V2L so we can use them to supply the home. But two,of my batteries are mobile and can be charged from a ev charger, so in a real emergency I would goto a public charger, fill the batteries and bring them home and plug them into the house.
@@JonathanTracey
What's the make/model and capacity of your mobile batteries, would it be feasible to use them to charge an EV for those with no home charging available ?
abosolutely, we have 3 x 9.7kw SolarEdge batteries and 7.2kw of Ecoflow Delta Pros, all feeding the house. in teh summer we regulary charge the cars from them, the thing that stops most people doing it is the inverter. Lots of installs only have 3.6kw inverter. We made that mistake a few years ago but swapped it out this year for a 10kw beast.
It's potentially extremely dangerous to "fool the system into thinking it's still powered from the grid". If it starts exporting when the grid is down, the DNO engineers trying to fix the problem will get a very nasty shock, and once they trace where the current came from, you'll finish up in court. 😐
I have box called a backup interface that physically disconnects the grid, it then operates in island mode, using an earth we had driven into the ground. So no danger to anyone downstream
Id cook in your house. We fuxualte beween 16 and 18 in our house. The nest has been trying to cook us the last few days, its a bit to clever for ite own good.
I like it cooler (sitting here in tee shirt) but wife and mother in law like it warmer
Outdoor consumer unit 😅??
No issues have a few of them, enclosures are weather proofed to ip68 standards. They also allow isolation close to the device if work is needed.
Energy prices just keep being driven higher by the net zero zealots and 22Kwh per day is massive amounts as we only use 150 per month + approx 12 cheap rate, in October as no more recent readings are available on my Eon account.
22Kwh × 30 days = 660 × 30p = £198?
Ours is £97 at the moment and £250 in credit.
The net zero zealots sounds like a club. I should be a member of I use nearly 3 times as much energy as you do running to electric cars charging my batteries and the Heat Pump and I pay about 1/4 of what you do, so does that make me a zealot?
👍👍👍
Appreciated
How do you manage to change your home battery and Ev at the same time off peak,doesn’t the battery charge at only 3.5 watts an hour not leaving enough time to charge the Ev in 5 hrs as you can’t charge both together as I was lend to believe?
I have a 10kw inverter so it can pull in 10kw every hour. You can charge both at the same time but you need to be aware of your incoming supply fuse size. Mine is 100amp which is 24kw. I did a video a few weeks ago about changing tariff where I listed all the things we charge together and how much power they use.
I have an 80amp fuse and charge my 18kwh battery and EV every night no problem. Great video btw the internet needs more facts about heat pumps to battle the FUD.
Glad you found it useful, the number of people posting comments saying it’s a scam is unbelievable
@@pmac6584that’s interesting. Do you have solar?
I’m planning to get a heat pump from Octopus. I’m wondering about the viability of getting battery storage as well and getting rid of gas i.e. heat pump + battery
@@gerryking4346yes I have 4kw solar, ev, lux/hanchu battery, ripple shares and fully electric kitchen. I have my name down with octopus for a heat pump. I have been running my gas boiler at 45 degrees to prove to myself that I can heat the house with low temperature flow. So far it is ok.
Your comment about intelligent go forcing you to charge when octopus want isn’t correct. Intelligent you get 23.30-5.30 a longer period of time to charge, and you can fill your batteries up and run ashp during that time for 1p a kWh less. I’d definitely recommend you look at switching as it will make a difference to your bills
What I was saying is that on the intelligent version of go, octopus defines when your car will charge even if it’s just between the six hour period that you mentioned. Because at max capacity my house could draw more than 100 A, I want to be in full control of that schedule and having octopus decide to extend it which they did last year when I was on intelligent could mean that too many things are pulling power at the same time. I’m currently on the standard version of octopus go which gives me five hours instead of six and it cost me 8.5p per a kWh instead of 7 per kWh. We fully charge our home batteries in about three hours so having an extra hour would make no difference to me whatsoever and the very small decrease in price would also make next to no difference maybe a £ across the whole month.
Blimey, you use more electrons in one week than I use in a month and a much larger household. That’s what I don’t get with those whom say they are trying to be carbon neutral, when I looked at the national grid last week there was only 13% of the grid coming from the renewables. That means that whilst I don’t have an electrified house, I actually generate far less CO2 than those whom claim to be green, which is rather ironic.
Never claimed to be green or carbon neutral. My objective is to be net zero, basically my energy bills for the year are nil or negative. The route to net zero involves a lot of green tech. two cars and a heatpump alone will use more power than most homes but given in the summer months that is all free power from sunlight and the excess pays for what I import in the winter. Hope that makes more sense for you