I remember the old days when people thought Atog was a shitty creature. Now Brian Weissman is saying Atog is one of the most dangerous in the format. It may have taken him 20 years but Atog is now on the same level as Serendib Efreet. Pretty Neat.
been watching you guys for 2years or so now, love the content. I even made my own copy of the deck last year. Brian is my hero, been looking at some of the hate comments over the years and am not sure why so many don't like Daniel I do. having said that one possible reason and only critique I have of you Daniel is you are very loud compared to who ever you have on the reason for this is you are to close to the mic on the camera compared to Brian or who ever you have on so maybe in the future take this in mind and maybe sit next to Brian or who ever instead of being right next to the mic just a helpful hint keep up the good work guys
I'm creating a contained card game, no releases just 200 cards like a cube, and old school Magic reminds me of it. A set # of cards so you can really dive and go into super detail since instead of worrying about which cards to put in out of 20,0000 you just maximize the fewer cards available.
Good job Brian. I used to play lots of Vintage in the late 90's, so it's good to see great players like yourself piloting their masterpieces to a championship in the format. It's very nostalgic for me, some people can just never understand. Thank you.
World class level deck tech. I’ve watched this several times. Question for Brian: What changes would you make in ATL rules? 1 strip, unrestricted recall
Brian is the best! Instead of bitching about the fact he didn't have the right deck pic taken or 'cheated', people should be thankful that a former pro like Brian, with his Type 1 legacy, actually cares about the Oldschool format enough to compete in it and promote it!
I am curious if Brian ever considered running Gorilla Shaman ( we called it Mox monkey back in the day) and what his general thoughts are running The Deck with this card.
Your instincts are spot on. I actually started running a pair of Gorilla Shamans as my only way to actually close out the game, alongside the Mirror Universe, shortly after Alliances entered the format. They’re likely too slow for current Vintage, but they were a huge part of The Deck’s arsenal for years. Sorry for the slow reply, I haven’t looked at this video in ages.
Whats the way to get around blood moon with this deck Brian? Sorry i asked this halfway through watching the video to the end i like how the stone will be used but relying on a stone and moxes against blood moon can be tuff. My derby deck(red white) side boards 3 blood moons and in my testing against a similur deck to yours the blood moon slows down your deck.... is that your biggest threat would you say Brian? Bllod moon or maybe a mono red deck ? Just a sick build either way great job
Pearl/disenchant or sapphire/BeB, or lotus/either, or chaos orb. And that's if you don't give him white or blue via fellwar. It's a known threat that can win, but it isn't an automatic win.
@@vintagemagic Two friends of mine have already answered you, but I figured I'd offer my perspective too. Blood Moon is certainly a threat, but my testing has shown it's not a big enough danger to merit the inclusion of basic lands. I've used basics in the past, but that's been as a way to play with Blood Moon myself, rather than against it. There are definitely a range of games where the opponent casts Blood Moon quickly, and you're just helpless against it. However, a big majority of the time, you're likely to have some combination of Disenchant or Blue Elemental Blast in hand, or possibly just the Chaos Orb. If you don't have either of those immediately, you also have the Lotus, the Pearl and the Sapphire as ways out of the situation. And of course, as I believe I mention in the video, you can often piggyback off of your opponent's basic plains or basic islands to cast the spells that remove Blood Moon.
Thanks for putting this together and posting it. Since there are so many artifacts in old school, does it make sense to put dust to dust in the main deck?
I tested Dust to Dust extensively, and though I had it among the "floating" spots at the tail end of my sideboard before Vegas, I ultimately cut it before the tournament in favor of Greed. The card's sorcery speed makes it extremely narrow against the biggest artifact threats in the format, namely Mishra's Factory, Black Vise, and Ankh of Mishra. Getting WW early in a 4 Strip Mine format is quite challenging, and you really need instants to interact during the combat step. I really think Divine Offering is the card to load up on. You lose a bit of top end potential, but in place of that you get greater flexibility, cheaper cost, and incidental life gain. The life gain from Divine Offering is no joke, as many Old School games often come down to 1-2 life points. One of my semifinal games from the Vegas tournament against Eric Froelich demonstrates this explicitly. We have video of the match, and it'll be posted as soon as we get commentary done.
Hey Brian, i was wondering if you guys tested power sink and amnesia? Running 4 counterspell, 1 mana drain and 4 power sink allows the deck to be more of the "permission" style deck of the past. Power sink usually doesn't cost more than 2-3 mana since people tap out all the time. It's also castable of a land and mox.
Hey there, great question. Sorry it's taken a while to reply, I haven't checked this post's comments in quite some time. I'm really not a fan of Power Sink, because I find the card is unreliable. I've said this before in various videos, but in general, I don't think counterspells are very good in Old School. This is because there just aren't that many cards in the format worth counterspelling. Outside of Timetwister, Ancestral Recall, Wheel of Fortune, Balance and Mind Twist, there really aren't many cards in the format you can't simply answer with white. You don't have to deal with permanents like Planeswalkers, for example, which are a nightmare for devoted control decks. I don't want to be in a situation where I'm having to use countermagic on stuff like Serendib Efreet or Atog, and a card like Power Sink is dubious for protecting a Jayemdae Tome or an Abyss from Disenchant. Amnesia is quite powerful, and it had a place in The Deck back in the mid 1990s, especially after Mind Twist was banned. However, Amnesia gets a LOT more effective when it's backed up by four copies of Mana Drain. With Mana Drain restricted, Amnesia gets much harder to cast early enough in the game to matter. Old School format is just much faster and more proactive than the original 1994--->1996 era, so six-cost spells are a lot harder to run.
@@Thebrianweissman thanks for the reply. Lately i've also started to think of counterspells like a last resort. They Are only the best answer when they Are the only answer.
@@gomcse Actually, I've had all these cards in Beta since time immemorial. Believe it or not, about 25 years ago, there was only a 2:1 price discrepancy between Beta cards and their white-bordered counterparts. Yes, that means revised Underground Sea for $5.00, and Beta Underground Sea for $10.00!
@@Thebrianweissman yeah, I was playing at the time. Used to give away Volcanic Island to friends because they were $5 Revised. LOL. Bought my first Beta Lotus for $90. Your Specter tech was refreshing BTW.
@@brianamdisen1989 The second Co:P was never the issue. The concern was people thought he used D2D illegally in the event instead of the legal second Co:P. The two Co:P in the game photo proves he was using the proper list. The only reason people worried is because he used D2D for the photo, people on Twitter thought that meant he illegally used D2D in the event. None of the competitors or judges or audience on site ever claimed that occurred, however. So your joke that he had a second Co:P up his sleeve is ironic because the only way he would have been cheating in the event at that time is if he didn't have one, not if he did.
I do have videos of all the games from the top 8! I'm just waiting on a chance to do proper editing and recording with commentary. It'll happen, I promise.
The substitute in the deck is fewer lands, the removal of Fellwar Stone, and some basic lands. I ran a version of my deck using Swedish rules at Noobcon last year, and wound up reverting to five-colors again. I couldn't decide between 28 and 29 mana sources, but I think 28 is about right. Going down to 28 mana sources from 31 made room for a few good main deck spells like red elemental blast and Disrupting Scepter. If I had to play Noobcon again I'd be changing a few more things. Ultimately I don't like Swedish rules though, Strip Mine is just too important for my strategy as a control player.
@@Thebrianweissman Thanks your response has really got me thinking about the game and how the fact that you are not allowed to run three cards makes such a huge difference. The version of old school we play has the following cards restricted: Ancestral Recall Balance Black Lotus Braingeyser Channel Chaos Orb Contract from Below* Darkpact* Demonic Tutor Library of Alexandria Mana Drain Mind Twist Mishra's Workshop Mox Emerald Mox Jet Mox Pearl Mox Ruby Mox Sapphire Regrowth Shahrazad Sol Ring Strip Mine Tempest Efreet* Time Walk Timetwister Wheel of Fortune So I can't run four workshops either. What is your advice for this format? Should I get the kill condition as something like a Shivan Dragon? What deck did you play at Noobcon and what changes would you make. Appreciate you might not want to give up your secrets.
Wheel is tricky to cast, and it's hard to really take advantage of it. I'd certainly play Timetwister over Wheel, but I don't think either draw 7 effect is warranted in a deck that intends to establish card dominance early with Jayemdae Tome. I don't like the symmetry of Wheel or Timetwister, particularly in a format as fast as contemporary Old School.
The Deck wins through something I'd simply call "inevitability". Basically, if you gain an upper hand in card advantage and resources, you'll eventually find yourself drawing multiple cards a turn against a helpless opponent. From there, killing them with Mishra's Factories is usually quite easy, though you have a Fireball as a backup if all your Factories are destroyed.
Hey James! I was just reminded of your post. If you’re still eager to see the tapes, I’ve recorded them with commentary for my channel. The first three games at least, the last three remain for later this month. Just search TH-cam for my name along with Old School.
Yep, I sure can! I did the alter myself back in 1995, as an homage to the pure destructive malevolence of the card. In 1995-era Magic, nearly all games of "Type 1" as it was called then came down to who successfully resolved Mind Twist. All the best decks ran four copies of Mana Drain and a bazillion blue sources, so games often came down to dozens of turns of draw go, culminating in a lethal Mind Twist. We actually ran two copies of the card "Mana Short" back then, because it effectively allowed you to fight the counter war over the game-ending Mind Twist at the end of their turn. I did own a Beta Mind Twist, but I didn't trust myself to do a good enough job with the picture to risk such a valuable card. Suffice to say, the alter I did on a revised Mind Twist turned out a lot better than I expected, and it's been a part of my control deck ever since. I've given some thought to trying to recreate the artwork on a Beta Mind Twist, but I'm skeptical I can do a satisfactory job a second time. Julie Baroh lives nearby, here in Seattle, and I've been talking with her about having her do the alter instead, using my revised version as a guide.
@@Thebrianweissman hey, man! thanks a lot for the detailed insight. i agree, mind twist is definitely a "game ender" back in the day. not bad on the altered art effort as well. it looks more intimidating haha! did all sort of search combinations in google images and couldn't find a photo of it. anyway, i hope the plan with Julie Baroh pushes through. that would be beyond awesome! make sure you let us know. 👍
Very kind of you to offer, but I had an alter made by Julie Baroh herself, that's a much-better version of the crude picture I drew with pencil 26 years ago. Here is a video where I unveil it! th-cam.com/video/cDueY_bjU7Q/w-d-xo.html
Congratulations to my friend and Magic: the Gathering mentor!
This was excellent! Thank you Brian, thank you Daniel!
the brian weissman content is my favourite of the channel!!! instalike
I remember the old days when people thought Atog was a shitty creature. Now Brian Weissman is saying Atog is one of the most dangerous in the format. It may have taken him 20 years but Atog is now on the same level as Serendib Efreet. Pretty Neat.
been watching you guys for 2years or so now, love the content. I even made my own copy of the deck last year. Brian is my hero, been looking at some of the hate comments over the years and am not sure why so many don't like Daniel I do. having said that one possible reason and only critique I have of you Daniel is you are very loud compared to who ever you have on the reason for this is you are to close to the mic on the camera compared to Brian or who ever you have on so maybe in the future take this in mind and maybe sit next to Brian or who ever instead of being right next to the mic just a helpful hint keep up the good work guys
I'm creating a contained card game, no releases just 200 cards like a cube, and old school Magic reminds me of it. A set # of cards so you can really dive and go into super detail since instead of worrying about which cards to put in out of 20,0000 you just maximize the fewer cards available.
Beautiful cards! Merry Christmas everyone
Good job Brian. I used to play lots of Vintage in the late 90's, so it's good to see great players like yourself piloting their masterpieces to a championship in the format. It's very nostalgic for me, some people can just never understand. Thank you.
You are extremely welcome, thank you for the kind comments :)
World class level deck tech. I’ve watched this several times. Question for Brian: What changes would you make in ATL rules? 1 strip, unrestricted recall
Brian is the best! Instead of bitching about the fact he didn't have the right deck pic taken or 'cheated', people should be thankful that a former pro like Brian, with his Type 1 legacy, actually cares about the Oldschool format enough to compete in it and promote it!
HAHAHAHA
Good job Brian! Love the deck techs
Thanks much!
I am curious if Brian ever considered running Gorilla Shaman ( we called it Mox monkey back in the day) and what his general thoughts are running The Deck with this card.
Your instincts are spot on. I actually started running a pair of Gorilla Shamans as my only way to actually close out the game, alongside the Mirror Universe, shortly after Alliances entered the format.
They’re likely too slow for current Vintage, but they were a huge part of The Deck’s arsenal for years. Sorry for the slow reply, I haven’t looked at this video in ages.
Just got a winter in the mail today, I'm going to rock all four seasons. I like variety
Whats the way to get around blood moon with this deck Brian? Sorry i asked this halfway through watching the video to the end i like how the stone will be used but relying on a stone and moxes against blood moon can be tuff. My derby deck(red white) side boards 3 blood moons and in my testing against a similur deck to yours the blood moon slows down your deck.... is that your biggest threat would you say Brian? Bllod moon or maybe a mono red deck ? Just a sick build either way great job
Pearl/disenchant or sapphire/BeB, or lotus/either, or chaos orb. And that's if you don't give him white or blue via fellwar. It's a known threat that can win, but it isn't an automatic win.
4x BEB sideboard, 4x disenchants, orb
@@vintagemagic Two friends of mine have already answered you, but I figured I'd offer my perspective too. Blood Moon is certainly a threat, but my testing has shown it's not a big enough danger to merit the inclusion of basic lands. I've used basics in the past, but that's been as a way to play with Blood Moon myself, rather than against it. There are definitely a range of games where the opponent casts Blood Moon quickly, and you're just helpless against it. However, a big majority of the time, you're likely to have some combination of Disenchant or Blue Elemental Blast in hand, or possibly just the Chaos Orb. If you don't have either of those immediately, you also have the Lotus, the Pearl and the Sapphire as ways out of the situation. And of course, as I believe I mention in the video, you can often piggyback off of your opponent's basic plains or basic islands to cast the spells that remove Blood Moon.
So was this before he removed the abyss and fireball for one shivan dragon? Or did he switch it back ?
Thanks for putting this together and posting it. Since there are so many artifacts in old school, does it make sense to put dust to dust in the main deck?
I tested Dust to Dust extensively, and though I had it among the "floating" spots at the tail end of my sideboard before Vegas, I ultimately cut it before the tournament in favor of Greed. The card's sorcery speed makes it extremely narrow against the biggest artifact threats in the format, namely Mishra's Factory, Black Vise, and Ankh of Mishra. Getting WW early in a 4 Strip Mine format is quite challenging, and you really need instants to interact during the combat step. I really think Divine Offering is the card to load up on. You lose a bit of top end potential, but in place of that you get greater flexibility, cheaper cost, and incidental life gain. The life gain from Divine Offering is no joke, as many Old School games often come down to 1-2 life points. One of my semifinal games from the Vegas tournament against Eric Froelich demonstrates this explicitly. We have video of the match, and it'll be posted as soon as we get commentary done.
Brian wins 2-0 in this video.
Brian is so patient against his opponent; Dan who keeps trying to speed him up in his nuanced answered.
yup, this pressure from Dan is really annoying BTW :(
Brian is dope.
Hey Brian, i was wondering if you guys tested power sink and amnesia? Running 4 counterspell, 1 mana drain and 4 power sink allows the deck to be more of the "permission" style deck of the past. Power sink usually doesn't cost more than 2-3 mana since people tap out all the time. It's also castable of a land and mox.
Hey there, great question. Sorry it's taken a while to reply, I haven't checked this post's comments in quite some time. I'm really not a fan of Power Sink, because I find the card is unreliable. I've said this before in various videos, but in general, I don't think counterspells are very good in Old School. This is because there just aren't that many cards in the format worth counterspelling. Outside of Timetwister, Ancestral Recall, Wheel of Fortune, Balance and Mind Twist, there really aren't many cards in the format you can't simply answer with white. You don't have to deal with permanents like Planeswalkers, for example, which are a nightmare for devoted control decks. I don't want to be in a situation where I'm having to use countermagic on stuff like Serendib Efreet or Atog, and a card like Power Sink is dubious for protecting a Jayemdae Tome or an Abyss from Disenchant.
Amnesia is quite powerful, and it had a place in The Deck back in the mid 1990s, especially after Mind Twist was banned. However, Amnesia gets a LOT more effective when it's backed up by four copies of Mana Drain. With Mana Drain restricted, Amnesia gets much harder to cast early enough in the game to matter. Old School format is just much faster and more proactive than the original 1994--->1996 era, so six-cost spells are a lot harder to run.
@@Thebrianweissman thanks for the reply. Lately i've also started to think of counterspells like a last resort. They Are only the best answer when they Are the only answer.
one thing I don't understand is why more counter spells than mana drain?
It's because Mana Drain is a restricted card in all versions of Old School. I'd run four Mana Drains in a millisecond over any ordinary counterspells.
Even just laying it out, the Chaos Orb is still kept off on its own because Chaos Orb.
He has to be careful not to let it touch the other cards.
Good video. Not sure what the deal is as my friend Jonathan won that event. Love the specter tech. Thanks for sharing.
Yes he won the redo, but Brian won the original.
@@vintagemagic , hi Daniel. Thanks for the info. Also, looks like Brian upgraded the whole deck to beta. It's gorgeous.
@@gomcse Actually, I've had all these cards in Beta since time immemorial. Believe it or not, about 25 years ago, there was only a 2:1 price discrepancy between Beta cards and their white-bordered counterparts. Yes, that means revised Underground Sea for $5.00, and Beta Underground Sea for $10.00!
@@Thebrianweissman yeah, I was playing at the time. Used to give away Volcanic Island to friends because they were $5 Revised. LOL. Bought my first Beta Lotus for $90. Your Specter tech was refreshing BTW.
great vid
hey daniel where can you buy the hoodie brian is wearing? thx
Seems to be missing a second copy of CoP Red
Zipkan, whats your name?
It's not crazy to have a second copy, but results from running two throughout the event showed that it's not as good as other choices.
Brian always keeps an extra in his pocket.
@@brianamdisen1989 The second Co:P was never the issue. The concern was people thought he used D2D illegally in the event instead of the legal second Co:P. The two Co:P in the game photo proves he was using the proper list.
The only reason people worried is because he used D2D for the photo, people on Twitter thought that meant he illegally used D2D in the event. None of the competitors or judges or audience on site ever claimed that occurred, however. So your joke that he had a second Co:P up his sleeve is ironic because the only way he would have been cheating in the event at that time is if he didn't have one, not if he did.
Do you have videos of the matches during the championship? It would be awesome to see them
I do have videos of all the games from the top 8! I'm just waiting on a chance to do proper editing and recording with commentary. It'll happen, I promise.
Ehen will you post your tournament videos brian? Been waiting for 2years!
What is the substitute if you are only allowed to run one strip mine?
The substitute in the deck is fewer lands, the removal of Fellwar Stone, and some basic lands. I ran a version of my deck using Swedish rules at Noobcon last year, and wound up reverting to five-colors again. I couldn't decide between 28 and 29 mana sources, but I think 28 is about right. Going down to 28 mana sources from 31 made room for a few good main deck spells like red elemental blast and Disrupting Scepter. If I had to play Noobcon again I'd be changing a few more things. Ultimately I don't like Swedish rules though, Strip Mine is just too important for my strategy as a control player.
@@Thebrianweissman Thanks your response has really got me thinking about the game and how the fact that you are not allowed to run three cards makes such a huge difference. The version of old school we play has the following cards restricted:
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Braingeyser
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below*
Darkpact*
Demonic Tutor
Library of Alexandria
Mana Drain
Mind Twist
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Regrowth
Shahrazad
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Tempest Efreet*
Time Walk
Timetwister
Wheel of Fortune
So I can't run four workshops either. What is your advice for this format? Should I get the kill condition as something like a Shivan Dragon? What deck did you play at Noobcon and what changes would you make. Appreciate you might not want to give up your secrets.
Also thanks Brian for just taking the time once to respond to me. You and vintage magic have got me back into this game after almost 20 years away.
Why no Wheel of Fortune? It seems a Jayemdae Tome could be replaced for one of these.
Wheel is tricky to cast, and it's hard to really take advantage of it. I'd certainly play Timetwister over Wheel, but I don't think either draw 7 effect is warranted in a deck that intends to establish card dominance early with Jayemdae Tome. I don't like the symmetry of Wheel or Timetwister, particularly in a format as fast as contemporary Old School.
Wow, must be at least 700 attendees in this event.
29:25 LOL
Lmao!!!
I already don't understood how this deck can win? What is the finisher/how this deck do 20 damage?
The Deck wins through something I'd simply call "inevitability". Basically, if you gain an upper hand in card advantage and resources, you'll eventually find yourself drawing multiple cards a turn against a helpless opponent. From there, killing them with Mishra's Factories is usually quite easy, though you have a Fireball as a backup if all your Factories are destroyed.
Brian when you publishing the videos? Waiting for 2 years noh.
Release the tapes!
RELEASE THE TAPES - lets see the games that brian played :P
They're coming! Just need to find time to properly record and edit the commentary.
@@Thebrianweissman thank you Brian - looking forward to seeing the matches
Hey James! I was just reminded of your post. If you’re still eager to see the tapes, I’ve recorded them with commentary for my channel. The first three games at least, the last three remain for later this month. Just search TH-cam for my name along with Old School.
Someone needs to sell Brian a Beta Mind Twist!
hey, Brian. can you tell us the story behind that altered art mind twist of yours?
Yep, I sure can! I did the alter myself back in 1995, as an homage to the pure destructive malevolence of the card. In 1995-era Magic, nearly all games of "Type 1" as it was called then came down to who successfully resolved Mind Twist. All the best decks ran four copies of Mana Drain and a bazillion blue sources, so games often came down to dozens of turns of draw go, culminating in a lethal Mind Twist. We actually ran two copies of the card "Mana Short" back then, because it effectively allowed you to fight the counter war over the game-ending Mind Twist at the end of their turn. I did own a Beta Mind Twist, but I didn't trust myself to do a good enough job with the picture to risk such a valuable card. Suffice to say, the alter I did on a revised Mind Twist turned out a lot better than I expected, and it's been a part of my control deck ever since. I've given some thought to trying to recreate the artwork on a Beta Mind Twist, but I'm skeptical I can do a satisfactory job a second time. Julie Baroh lives nearby, here in Seattle, and I've been talking with her about having her do the alter instead, using my revised version as a guide.
@@Thebrianweissman hey, man! thanks a lot for the detailed insight. i agree, mind twist is definitely a "game ender" back in the day. not bad on the altered art effort as well. it looks more intimidating haha! did all sort of search combinations in google images and couldn't find a photo of it. anyway, i hope the plan with Julie Baroh pushes through. that would be beyond awesome! make sure you let us know. 👍
tub3scr3am3r
Thought I’d update you on this matter 😉
th-cam.com/video/cDueY_bjU7Q/w-d-xo.html
Brian, you need me to sell you a beta mind twist?
Very kind of you to offer, but I had an alter made by Julie Baroh herself, that's a much-better version of the crude picture I drew with pencil 26 years ago. Here is a video where I unveil it!
th-cam.com/video/cDueY_bjU7Q/w-d-xo.html
@@Thebrianweissman thank for the reply and the video. You are too cool bro!
@@cardguys And you are too kind Mark, thank you and Happy New Year!
why dows nobody run pyrotechnics over fireball? i ofter kill 3 1/1s and still damage my opponent for less mana
No Timetwister?