Great having more Kaleido content available and highly detailed, thoughtful content at that. These videos not only take viewers through the roast but also maintain a narrative as to how the roast is planned and executed.
Thanks for sharing Jesse. This is what my videos have evolved to over the past couple of years. I hope to improve the video quality as well as becoming more concise in my narrative. It is a learning process. Are you a Kaleido owner? What has your experience been with (what model?) your roaster? Do you have any suggestions for future content? Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.
Andrew, you may need to tweak the profile based on the coffee density, bean size, and batch size. Let me know how it turned out and how your roast variables were different. I'm looking forward to hearing your experience. For those who are interested, the download link to this artisan profile .alog file is in the description.
Thanks for checking in, Mike! We’ve done about 15-20 batches to date. A handful did not go well as we learned the system. However, we learned a lot about controlling fan speed, heat, etc to at least control the targets better. The jury is still out on taste, because we have had back to back colds. Each cupping we say, ‘yep, kinda tastes like coffee’ just like food tastes like food 😅 Will circle back here with an update soon and hopefully the coffee isn’t the problem!
Roasted 20lbs of the same coffee in my Kaleido M10. Very small seed and soft crack sound. I went darker with 22-25% development. Excellent video. Great roaster. Takes time to tame your roast profiles.. Heats up very fast and can burn or over roast the coffee if your not careful.
Each batch was a bit different while I was experimenting. A nice medium+ roast was roasted with these parameters: Charge 178 ° C ; Drop temp 200.3° C ; Total time 10:28 ; 49% 19.4% 31.5% 600g -17% Loss @@VirtualCoffeeLab
Very interesting. So you had a really short middle phase. What would happen if you lowered your heat a little before dry end and tried to stretch your middle phase for about 3 minutes and 45 seconds all with a downward trend towards first crack. and then had your 19% development. So basically flip the browning and development times around. I wonder if you would notice a difference in the cup. You mentioned "taming the roast profile" and "heats up very fast". Is this what you were talking about with the Brazil? Between the process and the density I that bean does take off with too much heat. What do you think? I'm glad to hear you are enjoying your M10. Did I ask what the least amount of coffee (batch size) you have roasted on the M10? How did that go?
Please , keep up with these roast for the M2. I am all over the place with my M2. I am having a hard time controlling my roast. Heat gets away from me quickly
Hi Ken. When planning your heat for your roast, think of it as a roller coaster. Your pre-heat is the climb at the beginning of the ride Your charge (beans going into the roaster) is the top of the first big hill Turning Point is where you reach the bottom and then the temperatures begin to climb Dry end is that Second big hill on the ride that takes you the rest of the way through the middle phase, first crack, and development to the end of the ride which is drop. That means you have to have just the right amount of energy in the roaster at charge or you won't get up the hill. Too much energy and you fly up the hill and the car comes off the track. OK, enough of the analogy. Your beans will influence how that heat reacts. Heat is being absorbed by the beans. Some take longer to absorb the heat (heat transfer through the bean) while others do it quickly. This variable can be predicted when we know the bean density, process, and size. Charge weight also plays a HUGE roll on how much energy is needed to get you up the hill and then have enough momentum to get you through the roast while you maintain control. This takes practice. All of my drum roasting videos deal with this issue and I would suggest you consider watching some of them. You will see me doing some of the same things over and over because they are important and helpful. Every roasting machine will behave a little different BUT the concepts are the same. In the bigger scope of heat management, after dry end you will be lowering your heat setting from say 70% down to as low as 30% in steps. Occasionally, as seen in this video, I "stepped" too soon or too late. One last thing. Charge weight is important. On the M2, because it is a smaller drum roaster, roasting smaller batch sizes (like 150-200 grams) can sometimes be more challenging because there is not as much bean mass heating up. So, I would roast at 300-400 grams on the M2 but that is my opinion. You might be happy with a smaller batch size. Experiment for yourself and see and you decide. I will have a couple more videos with the M2. Thanks for watching.
Mike, just re-watched this video after taking delivery of my Keleido M2 yesterday. I did two test roasts today which are also my first using Artisan. So much information to take on board compared to manual roasting with my Hive. This video, although interesting before, makes so much more sense today as I struggled to control the heat with the M2! Luckily I ordered 5kg of inexpensive Rwanda beans to practice with.😀
Yes, the experience is much different than the Hive.. I agree about the "making more sense" once you go through the process once yourself. The good news is have an idea of what you are doing and just need practice. Great Job. I would season the roaster. This gives you quite a few roasts to see how the roaster responds to heat adjustments. Thanks for the update.
Hi again Mike, how do you get your RoR curve to be so smooth? 😃 I'm happy with my curve's direction but it is much more jagged than yours even though I have the same settings on the axis. I haven't adjusted any settings for delta span or smoothing but do have sampling set to 3.5 @@VirtualCoffeeLab
Just saw this after I replied to your question about the Artisan settings..... Thank you very much Edward. I really appreciate that. I'm glad my videos are helping you with your roasting. Moving from the Hive to a drum roaster is a learning curve. The Kaleido is a great option.
Great vid, please keep showing these Kaleido roasts, as it is hard to find new videos after the modificaitons this summer. I am looking to run some PID-based automated roasts but have been trying to find the corect settings for each of the PID variables. I suspect figuring out the PID manner of using these machines wll make a perfect roaster.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I purchased the M10 after the new enhancements that came out this past summer, and as I am learning, my roasts are all 300gr (central and south american beans), and I aim for the 9-10 minute mark as I tend to like a lighter roast. One thing I have found is that the first roast is always very different from the next, and I haven't found a stable procedure for warm-up into second or third batches. But I think with these new electric roasters, PID methodologies will be very important as they can move so much faster than traditional roasters. The Kaleido's do not even really have hefty drums, and they let so much more heat through than traditional drums. I think that is why you (and all of us on Kaleido's) spend a lot of time making rapid changes throughout the roast, which leads to replication inconsistencies between batches.
In Natural process the coffee is not de-pulped; the entire cherry is fully dried & then de-pulped. What you've described is Honey (miel) process where the cherry is de-pulped & the coffee seeds are (usually) put on drying tables to dry.
Yes, you are correct. Thanks for catching that mistake on the caption I put on the screen when describing the coffee. Dry process coffee/Natural Process is where the coffee seed dries inside the cherry for about 4-6 weeks. Then it is de-pulped. Thanks for watching , being a subscriber and for catching that error Scott.
Hey Mike! I just bought the M1 roaster and I am not used to the lower drop temps. I'm used to roasting on my 2 kilo Machine with 3 pounds, and after watching that you drop around 198 C, I'm surprised because that would cause my coffee to be underdeveloped on the 2 kilo. I am trying to get used to my M1 and realized that when I tried to drop my coffee with the 200 gram batches at the same temp of my 2 kilo, the coffee turns out more developed.
I noticed that too. Other than the differences in our roasting environments and the probe placement, the probe thickness can affect temps too. Also, I think the roasting chamber size has something to do with it. It is challenging for me to roast on so many different roasters because they all behave differently and give different temperature readings. The best thing you can do is focus on event times and ROR. At least thats what I have been doing. I determine how long it takes to get to dry at a charge temp of say 150c with a power setting of 50%. I Note the temperature reached at dry. This is the roasters temp range +- for dry. If that takes 4.5 minutes, I note the ROR number at the dry event. This will give an idea of how much momentum I have to move through the rest of the roast. Same thing with FC. with heat management /stepping down heat, I focus on event time and a ROR number I want to be at and manage heat to achieve this. I Note the FC temp. Lastly, I do the same thing for drop. This is the part where I have to determine my ideal drop temp. I Measure for moisture loss in the beans. Correlate the temp, bean color and moisture loss and then experiment with different drop temps that are in 3-4 degree increments. That is my process, what do you think?
Where would you recommend making the adjustment to slow the roast down a bit? Lower heat at charge to delay turning point? Or reducing heat a little more closer to dry end? Or something else? Love this type of content where we can watch as you go and not just when the roast is ‘perfect’
Andrew, it's all about hitting your event times... Dry, First Crack, Drop. A roasting plan will include these event times. From there you are managing heat to hit the event times. Here is how this might look for each event: Dry Phase - Charge temp and energy setting will allow you to achieve a specific dry event time. You depending on your momentum you can adjust heat just before dry to begin your aim towards your FC event. Browning Phase - Consider two really important factors to help you get to First Crack event at a safe rate of rise. First, find a nice ROR angle of decent. Don't let your ROR hover. Adjust heat to aim your FC time. Second, Arrive at First crack at a ROR level that will set you up for great development without huge temperature increases. For a solid medium roast, i like to hit first crack around 13 ROR. This give me room to slow down a little more until drop . That is one of the biggest mistakes we make during the browning phase. If we aren't careful we can have too much momentum towards first crack. It end up happening sooner than we expected/wanted. Development - As mentioned, getting the right ROR level (momentum) to move you to your desired drop temp. To high a ror at FC means you will end with a higher drop temp and ultimately a darker roast. Was that helpful? Let me know if you need more clarification. Thanks for your comment and for watching!
I'm glad you liked it. I'm sorry about the audio quality. My portable microphone has been dying for the past few videos and I need to get a new one. Hopefully the sound will improve! Thank you for being a subscriber and for watching!
Mike I want to thank you for another thorough video, great quality content with high production value for all the coffee nerds! This is really helpful as I consider replacing the behmor I have been running for years. Would this currently be your top recommendation for 1-2 coffee drinkers going thru .5-lbs per week? The behmor is frustrating me on build quality and of course control. It seems it will break down again on me for good any minute, and I have a hard time with evenness and consistency, meaning most coffees come out tasting very similar for me. Id like to learn artisan vs going the bullet route, and I see similar complaints about the hottop. Thank you.
I think the M2 is is a great choice for a home coffee roaster. 1/2 pound per week is 225 grams. If you want variety in your coffee and would like more roasting time, maybe the M1 would be a good choice. You could do 2 roasts per week. Either way I think you will need happy. There is a learning curve compared to the Behmor.
Hi Dion, I don’t usually do 100 on the drum for the Kaliedo M2. The drum can rotate very quickly and act more like a centrifuge causing the beans to lay against the hot metal. We want to loft the coffee to promote convection. Depending on the batch size and bean size, I will change my drum speed. I find most of my 300-400 gram batch sizes tend to be in the 70-80 drum speed range.
"Hi Mike, thank you for sharing your experience with the Kaleido Sniper M6 coffee roaster! I recently watched your video and I can definitely relate to the issue you mentioned about the roaster heating up quickly and staying hot. However, I've found a workaround for this problem that might be helpful to you and others facing a similar issue. Towards the end of the roast, I've discovered that by turning up the drum speed to maximum and increasing the airflow to its highest setting, while also reducing the heat, I was able to better control the temperature and prevent overroasting. It's worth giving this technique a try as it helped me achieve more consistent and desirable results. Despite the initial heating challenge towards the end of the roast, I must say that the overall performance of the Kaleido Sniper M10 is impressive. The final product it produces is truly astounding in terms of flavor profiles and quality. Thank you once again for sharing your insights, Mike. It's always great to hear from others who are using the same equipment. If you have any further tips or if you discover any other techniques to address the heat issue, I would really appreciate it. Keep up the excellent work with your videos!
Hmmm, More convective airflow seems like it would promote more development BUT I do understand your point that when you do that it allows you to lower your heat, and ultimately keeping your temp from increasing too quickly. I will keep that in mind if/when i find myself in that situation again. So I am roasting on the M2 (not the M6) and it is a smaller mass, with a smaller drum. This could influence the convection roast effect with the smaller roasting environment. Not sure if it would crash easier or not. Probably would if I had to guess. Also, I was at 80 or 90 on my drum speed so I didn't have much more to give near the end of the roast. If I would have kept my ROR a little lower going into FC i would have successfully hit my ending temperature goal BUT honestly I absolutely loved the end result in the cup! I am enjoying being able to roast on it and will be sorry to see it go. Thanks for sharing and your encouraging words.
Hey Mike, thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights on the impact of convective airflow and heat control during the roast. I understand your perspective that more convective airflow may promote more development, but my point was that it can also help in lowering the heat and preventing a sudden increase in temperature. I'll definitely keep that in mind if I find myself in a similar situation in the future. Regarding your experience with the Kaleido Sniper M2, I can see how the smaller mass and drum size could potentially influence the convection roast effect in the smaller roasting environment. It's unclear whether it would make the roast crash easier, but that could be a possibility. Also, given that you were already at 80 or 90 on the drum speed, you didn't have much room to increase it further towards the end of the roast. To hit your desired ending temperature, it might have helped to manage the Rate of Rise (ROR) a bit lower going into First Crack. Despite that, I'm glad to hear that you loved the end result in the cup! It's great to hear that you're enjoying roasting on the Kaleido Sniper M2 and I can understand the sentiment of being sorry to see it go. Thank you for sharing your experience and your encouraging words. If you have any more tips or findings to share, I'd love to hear them. Keep up the great work! Thanks again and happy roasting!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I almost forgot to mention this is pretty important too. My drum speed during drying and mallard phases is at a study 40% at the most and I'm working with a higher bean mass of 2 lb which I'm not sure. Has it any effect on the end result when applying that much convection?
Yep, I understand and agree with your statement about increasing air and lowering the heat setting to promote development while achieving a lower rate of rise resulting in a lower end temperature. Yes, coming into FC with a slightly lower ROR and managing the flick better would have given me a lower end temperature BUT I'm loving my cup! I've got a couple more videos planned for the M2. I miss the capacity of my Mill City as the 400 gram Max capacity is not quite enough for my weekly roasting needs. Hmm, maybe the M6 would be a better fit?
Martin, just to clarify a bit more on the development/end temp topic, look at your average ROR during development. Let's say it was 12c. If you did the same roast but came into first crack at a slightly lower rate of rise, and continuing with the development dropped at the same end of roast time, your ending temperature would be lower. So for me, my average ROR on this roast was 5.8c according to artisan. A slightly lower ror could have trimmed off another 1-2 degrees on my end temp.
Great video as usual Mike. This might be a trivial point, but at 7m 12s in the video you say “notice the bean temperature plummet.” Actually the graph is showing the temperature of the bean PROBE, not the beans. The bean temperature increases from room temp as soon as the beans are charged. At the turning point, the temperature probe has cooled to about the temperature of the beans, and is now tracking their temperature. I currently have two Ethiopian coffees that are dry processed. So I will be looking closely at your profile to see what things I can use to make my roast taste even better. Thanks, Mike!
Hi Lou, yes, you are correct about the bean probe temp and my statement. I think I said right after that, “but that’s okay “, or something like that. I’m not super concerned about that, especially towards the end of my roast. Let me know how your dry process roasts go with your bullet.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab So far, I am really liking working with dry processed (DP) coffees, especially when drinking them! Working with DP is just a little different than normal wet processed beans, but not greatly different, and isn’t strange or tricky. Lately I seem to prefer east-central African coffees, notably Ethiopia, Kenya, and (believe it or not) Rwanda. But I don’t have DP roasting all figured out, or anything even close. So I am looking to learn more from your work here. Thanks Mike!
this is so amazing! can anyone help me figure out how to use PID for charging but have it automatically go off (back on manual burner) when i hit charge, like in this video 😋
Hi Dion. thanks for subscribing to my channel. Yes, click on the "Control" button in the upper right of artisan. A box will pop up. set the mode to manual. So, when you charge, it will go into the manual mode. One you do that, you can then do your prewarm the normal way by setting your SV, turning on the fan and drum speed, and then click "start heating". The roaster will warm up to and hold that SV prewarming temp. Then, when it comes time to charge, you will need to set your SV and your power level immediately after that.
what is the diference between reaching to light roast in 8 min or in 12 min, what i mean is what happens when you prolong the time of roast with lower temperatures ?
Hi Juan, the answer will be different based on the type of roaster you are using. Assuming it is a drum roaster like the Kaleido M2, the answer is everything. Think of this this way, since the roast is 8 minute roast is 4 minutes shorter than the 12 minutes, which means the coffee will spend less time in the middle phase (Maillard/Browning) and less time in the development phase. That will affect the taste of the coffee. The longer roast will be less dynamic, kind of flat, and boring tasting compared to the short roast. I didn't quite understand the "lower temperature" part of your question but assuming the temps are the same this is what you can expect to happen. Does that make sense? Let me know if you want to re-phrase your question and I will try and clarify. If so, please share what roaster you are using. Regarding the impact of roast times on the profile, I will be explaining this in more detail in the next "profile series" video i do. Maybe in another week or so.
Hi Josh. For the M2,. I purchased a dust collector reducer adapter from Grainger. Here is the link: www.grainger.com/product/JET-Dust-Collector-Reducer-Sleeve-48RJ23 I had to cut some fins to expand the small end to allow it to slide over the Kaleido exhaust tube. I used a 2 inch radiator clamp to hold it in place. The larger side which attaches to the flexible vent is 3" and works perfectly with the 3" flexible vent.
Hi Steve. Not yet. My time has been limited BUT as we talked about last time, I really want to try this. What do you think is the best way to start? Would you mind making a couple of suggestions. I’m not super electrically inclined.
Great video. Really enjoy the content you put out. I'm wondering how you determined your target end temperature? I've got an M10 and trying to get good light to medium light roasts but really struggling with figuring out a good drop temp when I start roasting a new bean. My 1C typically starts around 193C on my old version (non-sealed) m10. I've been shooting for around 204C for my drop temp for a light roast (seems to be when 1C is tailing off). However Im consistently getting underdeveloped flavors with roast characteristic as well.
Hi Matt, thanks for watching and for sharing your experience with your roaster. To answer your question, I've been really paying attention to color and how it relates to the end temperature for the past couple of years. I have been saving beans from some pretty exceptional roasts and comparing color. In the end I have it pretty zero-ed in within a couple of degrees. These would be for pretty dense beans by the way. So, to answer your question, when I roast a new coffee i guess an end temperature and then I aim for that. I watch my color and then at the end, when I taste the coffee and smell the grounds, i consider the color and the temperature. In the case of this Ethiopian, My 193 might have been a little too light so I think between 195-197c is where I would want to be. I kind of lucked out but now I have a bean color, end temp and profile for this coffee that i can replicate :-) By the way, don't compare end temperatures between your roaster and others. They will not be the same. Checkout my "color is king" video as that might offer some additional info for you. Hope my comments were helpful.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab thanks for the reply. Makes total since. Another question that has been bothering me. I see your 1C was around 191C and you dropped at 197C, for only a rise of 6C from 1C to drop. Is there a "general standard" for how much BT increase to expect for a particular roast level? I realize the actual end temp will be different from roaster to roaster but what about a trend for delta T between 1C and drop for a particular roast level. Yours was 6C but that seems like quite a low increase just based on some things I've seen online (for instance the Captains Coffee roast primer shows a temp increase of about 9C from 1C to the very beginning of a city (light roast). Is this delta T also roaster dependent? I feel like if I had only a 6C increase in temp I would definitely have grassy coffee (or perhaps the time from 1C to drop is more important???)
Oh boy, your asking a question that I asked to myself a while back AND is has changed my thinking about development. I think the best short answer is for me to say.... give it a try. I apologize for my rambling in advance. I hope this makes sense. I do want you to experiment with this but let me explain a little more. Consider the ROR you are at when you hit first crack. Let's say your ROR is 15c at first crack. You might be thinking.... "ok, I've got 1 minute and 45 seconds in development and then I will drop the coffee." OR you might be thinking "ok, now I watch Artisan and let the development percentage click away until it hits 20% and then I will drop the coffee." Now, back to the first sentence here in my reply. I've been thinking about this whole topic for some time and realize that setting up my roast for success isn't just the dry phase but each of the milestone events. So how do I set up for success for first crack?. Idealy I have found that my ROR at first crack is a very important milestone during my roast. If too high, I have a darker roast/higher temperature than i want AND a shorter development time. If too low, I risk baked coffee. So, finding that perfect ROR at first crack changed my perception of reaching first crack and how it will affect my development outcome (percentage, time, color, and temperature. I would encourage you to experiment. This topic could help you gain more control over your roaster. It sure did for me. I'm not perfect and I mess up plenty of roasts but i have had more "golden" roasts with a slightly lower ROR through development because of what we just discussed. I would encourage you to experiment with this and let me know what happens. I call these lower ROR numbers during development the fun zone 🙂
Thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely ready to try this. I haven't had that "golden" cup yet with light roast (have with medium roasts), but look forward experimenting with your suggestions. Keep up the great content. Your channel is always my go to for roast related content 👍🏻
Hi Mike, Really helpful video for Ethiopian Honey. I just purchased the M6 from Joe and Barrett and have ruined my share of beans by roasting too hot and fast so your video is extremely helpful. That’s what it’s about in learning. I’m amazed at how different this roaster is versus my Freshroast SR800. Bigger learning curve for sure. Hey could you share what connection or spaced connection you are using and where you got it at the exhaust please??? I fixed my original problem of having an in-line fan solid connection for my long run of ductwork which was pulling too much air out of the roaster and keeping me from hitting FC.
Hi Jeff, yes, the M2 is much different than the fresh roast. We learn from our mistakes don’t we. I sure do. The adapter I use for the M2 is from Grainger: www.grainger.com/product/JET-Dust-Collector-Reducer-Sleeve-48RJ23 How will need to cut some fins on the the 1” side of the adapter so they flare open a little bit, allowing the adapter to slide over the kaieido exhaust tube. Do not cut the Kaleido tube. I use a radiant camp to hold the air collector onto the Kaleido tube.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you Mike! Incidentally with my just purchased M6 dual I originally connected my long 20 foot of ductwork with S4 inline fan set on only 30% power but was pulling too much heat out of the roaster with Air @40 whereby I couldn’t reach FC and it stalled. I disconnected to create a gap and all is well now if that makes sense. So I’ll take a look at your connector if it’ll not pull to much heat out. The Air fan is just not powerful enough to push smoke out into the next room where it exits outside. Hey have you successfully roasted any other beans with the M2? Not sure how long Espresso Outlet folks will let you keep it. That’s where I got mine too. Thanks again and I really like what you said about roasting with these Kaleido’s by the event! So much to learn now. Any advice on roasting other beans is appreciated (eg Kenyan City/City+, Panama City+, Columbians Full City).
I've roasted a lot of coffee with the M2. I'm probably going to talk with Barrett and Joe to see if I can keep it. They have been really cool about letting me hold on to it this long.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I thought I saw a M6 or M10 also in your latest Profile video? M2 and M6 are right sized for the home roaster for sure. I roasted some Ethiopian Shantawene Org Natural by following your Ethiopian video by logging events manually from screenshots since I only have the tablet at the moment. A 300 and 400g batch on my M6. Tracked pretty good but got a little away from me at the end. Dropped 200c and 195c respectively. Setting up now to taste in 3-4 days. Definitely tell the difference in color being medium and medium light.
I have the M2 and the M10 in the background. Temperatures will be different for the M6 using that profile. I'm still working through the M10, trying to understand it's performance capabilities. I had a very successful roast last week with 800 grams. My charge temperature was 20 degrees higher than my 400 gram batch I started with. The batch size really makes a difference. The larger roaster capacity really helps me save time each week. I have to roast about 1.75 lbs every week for our church cafe as well as other special projects BUT it roasts 400 grams great all day long. It is a pretty versatile machine. I really like the M2. I think that is perfect for most home roasters. Yea, I love a 192-193 drop on the ethiopian naturals with the M2. It give me a nice color and a great balance of acidity and development. Usually end around a 12.8% moisture loss for that type of roast.
Hi mike, how are you? thanks for these videos they are very helpful and I have a great time watching you enjoy the seeds of your labour :D Anyways, I was just curious and I don't think I heard you mention this, but isn't your charge temp a bit low? I understand this kaleido roaster brings heat up very quickly, and that you are roasting a natural, but that shocked me and I wanted to know if there was something else to it. Maybe I have some charge temperatures that are a bit high and should reconsider, but 200°C to 205°C is what I've been seeing. Thanks again for the video! cheers, Francisco from Argentina
Hello Francisco, thanks for watching. Are you roasting with a Kaleido? One thing I have learned about watching other roasting videos is.... it is confusing. I'm sure my temperatures look different than someone elses. Maybe even your temperatures. Even with the same coffee roaster, you and i can have different temperatures displayed because of things like how far the probe is pushed in. I have personally found this the case for Kaleido roasters. My temps are 30 degrees different than another home roaster I was talking with just this past week. So, don't focus on my temperatures as much as the event times. Watch how long it takes me, or someone to get from charge to dry end..... or Dry end to first crack.... Batch size is another variable that can require different charge temps. Roaster size, 400 gram compared to 1 kilo roasters will use different charge temperatures. That was my short answer. I will be glad to clarify is you have to dig a little deeper. If I didn't understand your question properly please let me know. Thanks for asking a great question.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hi again! Sorry for the late response, university is draining all my time and energy, maybe I need a higher summer charge temp so that I can roast along the semester with ease😁 I understand now, and I've been studying your videos, and I now see a trend on your roasting style which I find appealing. As soon as I get my hands on the roaster I'm buying, I'll try to match all this data. I'm taking a degree in electronical engineering, but I was in physics for a few years, and I can say there are a lot of people trying to argue the reason for their decisions with some false statements so it is difficult to find quality information about roasting without getting confused. I'm interested in the soaking beans style and in knowing how to aproach different humidity % beans, density, bean size, process, etc. But it's hard to reach for good info. Do you have any links for these topics? Thanks for the response and the good vibes:) cheers!
Hello Francisco. I don't think you confirmed with me the type of roaster you plan to purchase. That decision directs the conversation. How we apply heat, soak, charge temperatures, all of that is foremost dependent on the equipment we use. The roast profile is limited by the machine and then the beans, process etc..
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hi, so I am buying a drum roaster, 2kg batch size, inox steel single wall with dispersion matrix so that heat isn't applied directly to the metal of the drum. It has two probes, ET and BT, a big controllable air extractor, controllable RPM, gas fueled. I don't recall you need any further information, but feel free to ask.
Thanks for sharing. Yea, a soak could be a nice option based on how you approach the charge temperature and your air. I'm also not sure how much metal you have (heat sink) so this too could be a factor when it comes to a soak for the first 30 seconds or so. I like the sound of the dispersion matrix. With regards to the Kaleido, it's power source are IR heating elements. So the elements are heating objects, not necessarily the air. The air is heated through a design element in the roaster where air is drawn in between to layers of hot metal and blown out into the roasting chamber. This is really interesting and promotes convective heat transfer. It is a great design. But, the design of the roaster doesn't really lend itself to use a "soak" period for the dry phase. There isn't enough hot metal to support this. Now, on my Mill City 500 gram, I used the soak all the time.
Where does a beginner go to learn about developing a profile for a bean, and how beans react in the different phases of a roast. In this video, you knew what you wanted to achieve but that’s through a ton of experience. I’d like to get more theory to study this stuff.
Hi TJ - My playlist "Home Coffee Roasting Essentials" includes some of the theory. th-cam.com/play/PLe757VIiQrPYFTUF1g87lkkEymjQ40wMK.html Particularly the first 4 videos: 3 Tips for new home coffee roasters Why the dry phase is so important How to roast sweet flavorful coffee Coffee Roasting Development phase I also try an incorporate some theory in all of my videos, including when I roast coffee. I also have another playlist "secret sauce of roasting coffee" starts from the beginning of roasting with a hot air popper and leads to a drum roaster. These videos highlight theory and add various elements related to temperature over time. Controlling heat over the timeline is where the beginner ends and the coffee crafting begins. Now that we can control our roasts, we can craft them using different profiles. Both of these playlists as well as many of my other videos will talk about my roasting approach. I try and share why and how as I go along. Another good source for theory would be the "Roasting School" videos from Mill City. I cut my teeth on many of their videos.
Currently this video is the only roast using the tablet. This is a really important video for any home coffee roaster just getting into roasting. It is a part of my “secret sauce” playlist. There is a lot of great info covered here including charge temps and all of the major coffee roasting events. The tablet is displayed in full screen during parts of the roast . What info are you interested to see related to the tablet? Let me know and I will see how I can incorporate this in a future video.
@VirtualCoffeeLab I meant the kaleido software for the roasting, instead of artisan. I saw you did use it in the temperature video, but was wondering if you could do a roast video using it and waking through how to use their software. Your videos are great though. I'm going through them to get myself up to speed as much as I can
Hello Joro, that is a great ambition. I roast about 1 kilo a week to serve at our church cafe. It is very rewarding to see people enjoy the coffee I roast. One thing I learned is I am roasting coffee for others, not myself. So, the profile I use is something i know everyone will enjoy. Picking the right coffee to roast is important. I roast a Guatemala Huehuetenango bean that seems to work really great. It has the sweetness I want and the chocolatey notes others enjoy. A PNG coffee (you commented on a year ago) would be really fun to serve but there is that jungle/hemp/wet leaves kind of note that some might not like. A Colombian coffee would be a good option as well. The roasting is half the challenge. The other is using the right brewing equipment. We have a commercial Bunn brewer at church and it does a decent job. It is really important to make sure the equipment is cleaned regularly to prevent dirty, bitter notes. What type of roaster are you using again?
Hi Thomas, Yes, for me, a goal in my roast is to have a steadily declining ROR in general. You might be referring to the rolling you see on this roast. Depending on the settings of the logging software, probe thickness, and the angle of descent of the ROR, it is common to see these types of rolling lines. In the case of my Ethiopian Natural Roast, you can see the ROR that clearly trends downward with the rolling. It has always done that for me. There are times in this roast when you see these wobbles and I am making no adjustments to my heat or air. But, in regards to declining ROR, I have personally seen the ups and downs on many roasts done by professionals. I think it is very common to see this. It is mostly the way the probe is reading the temps. Here is a good example of someone following Scott Rao's roasting theory and consulting with Scott. www.reddit.com/r/roasting/comments/dcbviy/roasting_dark_following_raos_declining_ror_past/ looking at the graph you will see the ups and downs that appear on the graph as well as the flick at first crack. Is this what you are referring to Thomas? Personally, I think the downward trend of the ROR has helped me roast better coffee and is a good thing :-)
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks - yes, that's what I meant. I am trying to get a smooth ROR decline on my M10 and while the trend down overall looks fine, and I end up below an ROR of 5 when dropping, I pretty much always have these steps in there. I'll blame the probe ;-)
I just got my M10 a couple of months ago. Are you using C or F for your temps? I usually get a pretty low ROR at the end. Depending on my roast profile I can be as low as 2 in the last minute.
Yea, depending on the roast I've experienced that as well. I am new to roasting larger batches like 1k. Most of my roasting has been 500 grams or less. The larger mass of coffee requires higher charge temps, more power upfront but then later on much less heat.... moreso than the smaller capacity roasters. At least that has been my experience. What is your charge temp, drop temp, and total roast time for your medium/dark roasted coffee Thomas?
197C is 387F. It's wild to me that your first crack and drop are finishing at the typical first crack temperature of coffee, which is around 196.5C or 386F.
I guess the question that undergirds this observation is: Do you find your BT probes are running 10-12 degrees C hot? Do your drop temps typically line up with the roast color associated with them?
Great observation and an interesting topic. The differences you notice from one roaster to another have to do with probe placement, thickness and some other variables. For example, I had to adjust my BT temp on the Mill City 500 gram roaster I have. It was off almost 50f degrees I did this using an offset inside artisan. Even comparing the same roaster there will be differences. It could be a variety of reasons why they are different including how far the probe is pushed into the roaster. With regards to charge, dry, first crack, and drop, I have found that even using the same machine, i can manipulate the ending temperature by how much momentum I have in my roaster. If I'm building up energy with my power at say 80%, my ET will most likely be increasing. If I stay on the power and the roast fly's through first crack, I have seen the drop temperature be higher than what the bean color looks like. I think the probe is influenced by the energy rate (80%) compared to a lower energy rate of say 45% or 20%. You may even notice your temps being different at other events like dry or first crack compared to how they usually are if you are really pushing the power. I have found that when comparing graphs and temps with others or from machine to machine, we can't rely on temperatures. They are good for trends but the real data is found in event times, bean color, and moisture loss. I can rely on that data and be pretty confident but temperature readings not so much. What do you think? Thanks for watching and sharing your comment.
Thanks!
Thank you for watching and for the super thanks Ken. I appreciate it. :-)
Great having more Kaleido content available and highly detailed, thoughtful content at that.
These videos not only take viewers through the roast but also maintain a narrative as to how the roast is planned and executed.
Thanks for sharing Jesse. This is what my videos have evolved to over the past couple of years. I hope to improve the video quality as well as becoming more concise in my narrative. It is a learning process.
Are you a Kaleido owner? What has your experience been with (what model?) your roaster? Do you have any suggestions for future content?
Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.
Loaded this as my background for my first weekend of roasting on my M2! Looking forward to cupping and/or brewing it this week! Thanks for sharing
Andrew, you may need to tweak the profile based on the coffee density, bean size, and batch size. Let me know how it turned out and how your roast variables were different. I'm looking forward to hearing your experience. For those who are interested, the download link to this artisan profile .alog file is in the description.
Andrew, how did your roast turn out?
Thanks for checking in, Mike! We’ve done about 15-20 batches to date. A handful did not go well as we learned the system. However, we learned a lot about controlling fan speed, heat, etc to at least control the targets better.
The jury is still out on taste, because we have had back to back colds. Each cupping we say, ‘yep, kinda tastes like coffee’ just like food tastes like food 😅 Will circle back here with an update soon and hopefully the coffee isn’t the problem!
Roasted 20lbs of the same coffee in my Kaleido M10. Very small seed and soft crack sound. I went darker with 22-25% development. Excellent video. Great roaster. Takes time to tame your roast profiles.. Heats up very fast and can burn or over roast the coffee if your not careful.
What was your charge temp, drop temp, and total roast time?
Each batch was a bit different while I was experimenting. A nice medium+ roast was roasted with these parameters: Charge 178 ° C ; Drop temp 200.3° C ; Total time 10:28 ; 49% 19.4% 31.5% 600g -17% Loss @@VirtualCoffeeLab
Very interesting. So you had a really short middle phase. What would happen if you lowered your heat a little before dry end and tried to stretch your middle phase for about 3 minutes and 45 seconds all with a downward trend towards first crack. and then had your 19% development. So basically flip the browning and development times around. I wonder if you would notice a difference in the cup. You mentioned "taming the roast profile" and "heats up very fast". Is this what you were talking about with the Brazil? Between the process and the density I that bean does take off with too much heat. What do you think?
I'm glad to hear you are enjoying your M10. Did I ask what the least amount of coffee (batch size) you have roasted on the M10? How did that go?
Please , keep up with these roast for the M2. I am all over the place with my M2. I am having a hard time controlling my roast. Heat gets away from me quickly
Hi Ken. When planning your heat for your roast, think of it as a roller coaster.
Your pre-heat is the climb at the beginning of the ride
Your charge (beans going into the roaster) is the top of the first big hill
Turning Point is where you reach the bottom and then the temperatures begin to climb
Dry end is that Second big hill on the ride that takes you the rest of the way through the middle phase, first crack, and development to the end of the ride which is drop.
That means you have to have just the right amount of energy in the roaster at charge or you won't get up the hill. Too much energy and you fly up the hill and the car comes off the track.
OK, enough of the analogy.
Your beans will influence how that heat reacts. Heat is being absorbed by the beans. Some take longer to absorb the heat (heat transfer through the bean) while others do it quickly. This variable can be predicted when we know the bean density, process, and size.
Charge weight also plays a HUGE roll on how much energy is needed to get you up the hill and then have enough momentum to get you through the roast while you maintain control.
This takes practice. All of my drum roasting videos deal with this issue and I would suggest you consider watching some of them. You will see me doing some of the same things over and over because they are important and helpful.
Every roasting machine will behave a little different BUT the concepts are the same. In the bigger scope of heat management, after dry end you will be lowering your heat setting from say 70% down to as low as 30% in steps. Occasionally, as seen in this video, I "stepped" too soon or too late.
One last thing. Charge weight is important. On the M2, because it is a smaller drum roaster, roasting smaller batch sizes (like 150-200 grams) can sometimes be more challenging because there is not as much bean mass heating up. So, I would roast at 300-400 grams on the M2 but that is my opinion. You might be happy with a smaller batch size. Experiment for yourself and see and you decide.
I will have a couple more videos with the M2. Thanks for watching.
Another great video Mike, that certainly is a great coffer roaster.
Your method is getting much better.
I try to do the same sort of method.
I'm going to be sorry when I have to give it back. It is a sweet little machine. Thanks for watching Shane. Happy Roasting!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab make the most of it, before it's gone.
Mike, just re-watched this video after taking delivery of my Keleido M2 yesterday. I did two test roasts today which are also my first using Artisan. So much information to take on board compared to manual roasting with my Hive. This video, although interesting before, makes so much more sense today as I struggled to control the heat with the M2! Luckily I ordered 5kg of inexpensive Rwanda beans to practice with.😀
Yes, the experience is much different than the Hive.. I agree about the "making more sense" once you go through the process once yourself. The good news is have an idea of what you are doing and just need practice. Great Job.
I would season the roaster. This gives you quite a few roasts to see how the roaster responds to heat adjustments. Thanks for the update.
Hi again Mike, how do you get your RoR curve to be so smooth? 😃 I'm happy with my curve's direction but it is much more jagged than yours even though I have the same settings on the axis. I haven't adjusted any settings for delta span or smoothing but do have sampling set to 3.5 @@VirtualCoffeeLab
I think I'm using the default settings from Kaleido but I will have to check my settings tonight and confirm.
Another awesome video! Please continue sharing your experiences with the Kaleido, wry very helpful, thank you!
Thanks for watching Scott. I've got a couple more videos planned for the M2!
Getting so much help from your videos. Thank you.
Just saw this after I replied to your question about the Artisan settings..... Thank you very much Edward. I really appreciate that. I'm glad my videos are helping you with your roasting. Moving from the Hive to a drum roaster is a learning curve. The Kaleido is a great option.
Great vid, please keep showing these Kaleido roasts, as it is hard to find new videos after the modificaitons this summer. I am looking to run some PID-based automated roasts but have been trying to find the corect settings for each of the PID variables. I suspect figuring out the PID manner of using these machines wll make a perfect roaster.
Hi Jay, are you roasting on an M2? What temp are you beginning your roast? How long is your total roast time. How much coffee are you roasting?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I purchased the M10 after the new enhancements that came out this past summer, and as I am learning, my roasts are all 300gr (central and south american beans), and I aim for the 9-10 minute mark as I tend to like a lighter roast. One thing I have found is that the first roast is always very different from the next, and I haven't found a stable procedure for warm-up into second or third batches. But I think with these new electric roasters, PID methodologies will be very important as they can move so much faster than traditional roasters. The Kaleido's do not even really have hefty drums, and they let so much more heat through than traditional drums. I think that is why you (and all of us on Kaleido's) spend a lot of time making rapid changes throughout the roast, which leads to replication inconsistencies between batches.
In Natural process the coffee is not de-pulped; the entire cherry is fully dried & then de-pulped. What you've described is Honey (miel) process where the cherry is de-pulped & the coffee seeds are (usually) put on drying tables to dry.
Yes, you are correct. Thanks for catching that mistake on the caption I put on the screen when describing the coffee. Dry process coffee/Natural Process is where the coffee seed dries inside the cherry for about 4-6 weeks. Then it is de-pulped. Thanks for watching , being a subscriber and for catching that error Scott.
Hey Mike! I just bought the M1 roaster and I am not used to the lower drop temps. I'm used to roasting on my 2 kilo Machine with 3 pounds, and after watching that you drop around 198 C, I'm surprised because that would cause my coffee to be underdeveloped on the 2 kilo. I am trying to get used to my M1 and realized that when I tried to drop my coffee with the 200 gram batches at the same temp of my 2 kilo, the coffee turns out more developed.
P.S. I bought your Artisan Profile!
I noticed that too. Other than the differences in our roasting environments and the probe placement, the probe thickness can affect temps too. Also, I think the roasting chamber size has something to do with it. It is challenging for me to roast on so many different roasters because they all behave differently and give different temperature readings.
The best thing you can do is focus on event times and ROR. At least thats what I have been doing.
I determine how long it takes to get to dry at a charge temp of say 150c with a power setting of 50%. I Note the temperature reached at dry. This is the roasters temp range +- for dry. If that takes 4.5 minutes, I note the ROR number at the dry event. This will give an idea of how much momentum I have to move through the rest of the roast. Same thing with FC. with heat management /stepping down heat, I focus on event time and a ROR number I want to be at and manage heat to achieve this. I Note the FC temp. Lastly, I do the same thing for drop.
This is the part where I have to determine my ideal drop temp. I Measure for moisture loss in the beans. Correlate the temp, bean color and moisture loss and then experiment with different drop temps that are in 3-4 degree increments.
That is my process, what do you think?
Where would you recommend making the adjustment to slow the roast down a bit? Lower heat at charge to delay turning point? Or reducing heat a little more closer to dry end? Or something else? Love this type of content where we can watch as you go and not just when the roast is ‘perfect’
Andrew, it's all about hitting your event times... Dry, First Crack, Drop. A roasting plan will include these event times. From there you are managing heat to hit the event times. Here is how this might look for each event:
Dry Phase - Charge temp and energy setting will allow you to achieve a specific dry event time. You depending on your momentum you can adjust heat just before dry to begin your aim towards your FC event.
Browning Phase - Consider two really important factors to help you get to First Crack event at a safe rate of rise. First, find a nice ROR angle of decent. Don't let your ROR hover. Adjust heat to aim your FC time. Second, Arrive at First crack at a ROR level that will set you up for great development without huge temperature increases. For a solid medium roast, i like to hit first crack around 13 ROR. This give me room to slow down a little more until drop .
That is one of the biggest mistakes we make during the browning phase. If we aren't careful we can have too much momentum towards first crack. It end up happening sooner than we expected/wanted.
Development - As mentioned, getting the right ROR level (momentum) to move you to your desired drop temp. To high a ror at FC means you will end with a higher drop temp and ultimately a darker roast.
Was that helpful? Let me know if you need more clarification. Thanks for your comment and for watching!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab very helpful, thank you!
Andrew, thank you very much for Buying Me A Coffee. I appreciate that!
Interesting, nice profile strategy.
Thanks Craig.
Fantastic video as usual! Very helpful!
I'm glad you liked it. I'm sorry about the audio quality. My portable microphone has been dying for the past few videos and I need to get a new one. Hopefully the sound will improve!
Thank you for being a subscriber and for watching!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab no worries, the audio was fine for me!
Mike I want to thank you for another thorough video, great quality content with high production value for all the coffee nerds! This is really helpful as I consider replacing the behmor I have been running for years. Would this currently be your top recommendation for 1-2 coffee drinkers going thru .5-lbs per week? The behmor is frustrating me on build quality and of course control. It seems it will break down again on me for good any minute, and I have a hard time with evenness and consistency, meaning most coffees come out tasting very similar for me. Id like to learn artisan vs going the bullet route, and I see similar complaints about the hottop. Thank you.
I think the M2 is is a great choice for a home coffee roaster. 1/2 pound per week is 225 grams. If you want variety in your coffee and would like more roasting time, maybe the M1 would be a good choice. You could do 2 roasts per week. Either way I think you will need happy. There is a learning curve compared to the Behmor.
Love the videos, question why not do 100 on the drum?
Hi Dion, I don’t usually do 100 on the drum for the Kaliedo M2. The drum can rotate very quickly and act more like a centrifuge causing the beans to lay against the hot metal. We want to loft the coffee to promote convection. Depending on the batch size and bean size, I will change my drum speed. I find most of my 300-400 gram batch sizes tend to be in the 70-80 drum speed range.
"Hi Mike, thank you for sharing your experience with the Kaleido Sniper M6 coffee roaster! I recently watched your video and I can definitely relate to the issue you mentioned about the roaster heating up quickly and staying hot. However, I've found a workaround for this problem that might be helpful to you and others facing a similar issue.
Towards the end of the roast, I've discovered that by turning up the drum speed to maximum and increasing the airflow to its highest setting, while also reducing the heat, I was able to better control the temperature and prevent overroasting. It's worth giving this technique a try as it helped me achieve more consistent and desirable results.
Despite the initial heating challenge towards the end of the roast, I must say that the overall performance of the Kaleido Sniper M10 is impressive. The final product it produces is truly astounding in terms of flavor profiles and quality.
Thank you once again for sharing your insights, Mike. It's always great to hear from others who are using the same equipment. If you have any further tips or if you discover any other techniques to address the heat issue, I would really appreciate it. Keep up the excellent work with your videos!
Hmmm, More convective airflow seems like it would promote more development BUT I do understand your point that when you do that it allows you to lower your heat, and ultimately keeping your temp from increasing too quickly. I will keep that in mind if/when i find myself in that situation again.
So I am roasting on the M2 (not the M6) and it is a smaller mass, with a smaller drum. This could influence the convection roast effect with the smaller roasting environment. Not sure if it would crash easier or not. Probably would if I had to guess. Also, I was at 80 or 90 on my drum speed so I didn't have much more to give near the end of the roast.
If I would have kept my ROR a little lower going into FC i would have successfully hit my ending temperature goal BUT honestly I absolutely loved the end result in the cup!
I am enjoying being able to roast on it and will be sorry to see it go.
Thanks for sharing and your encouraging words.
Hey Mike, thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights on the impact of convective airflow and heat control during the roast. I understand your perspective that more convective airflow may promote more development, but my point was that it can also help in lowering the heat and preventing a sudden increase in temperature. I'll definitely keep that in mind if I find myself in a similar situation in the future.
Regarding your experience with the Kaleido Sniper M2, I can see how the smaller mass and drum size could potentially influence the convection roast effect in the smaller roasting environment. It's unclear whether it would make the roast crash easier, but that could be a possibility. Also, given that you were already at 80 or 90 on the drum speed, you didn't have much room to increase it further towards the end of the roast. To hit your desired ending temperature, it might have helped to manage the Rate of Rise (ROR) a bit lower going into First Crack. Despite that, I'm glad to hear that you loved the end result in the cup!
It's great to hear that you're enjoying roasting on the Kaleido Sniper M2 and I can understand the sentiment of being sorry to see it go. Thank you for sharing your experience and your encouraging words. If you have any more tips or findings to share, I'd love to hear them. Keep up the great work!
Thanks again and happy roasting!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab
I almost forgot to mention this is pretty important too. My drum speed during drying and mallard phases is at a study 40% at the most and I'm working with a higher bean mass of 2 lb which I'm not sure. Has it any effect on the end result when applying that much convection?
Yep, I understand and agree with your statement about increasing air and lowering the heat setting to promote development while achieving a lower rate of rise resulting in a lower end temperature. Yes, coming into FC with a slightly lower ROR and managing the flick better would have given me a lower end temperature BUT I'm loving my cup! I've got a couple more videos planned for the M2. I miss the capacity of my Mill City as the 400 gram Max capacity is not quite enough for my weekly roasting needs. Hmm, maybe the M6 would be a better fit?
Martin, just to clarify a bit more on the development/end temp topic, look at your average ROR during development. Let's say it was 12c. If you did the same roast but came into first crack at a slightly lower rate of rise, and continuing with the development dropped at the same end of roast time, your ending temperature would be lower. So for me, my average ROR on this roast was 5.8c according to artisan. A slightly lower ror could have trimmed off another 1-2 degrees on my end temp.
Great video as usual Mike. This might be a trivial point, but at 7m 12s in the video you say “notice the bean temperature plummet.” Actually the graph is showing the temperature of the bean PROBE, not the beans. The bean temperature increases from room temp as soon as the beans are charged. At the turning point, the temperature probe has cooled to about the temperature of the beans, and is now tracking their temperature.
I currently have two Ethiopian coffees that are dry processed. So I will be looking closely at your profile to see what things I can use to make my roast taste even better. Thanks, Mike!
Hi Lou, yes, you are correct about the bean probe temp and my statement. I think I said right after that, “but that’s okay “, or something like that. I’m not super concerned about that, especially towards the end of my roast. Let me know how your dry process roasts go with your bullet.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab So far, I am really liking working with dry processed (DP) coffees, especially when drinking them! Working with DP is just a little different than normal wet processed beans, but not greatly different, and isn’t strange or tricky. Lately I seem to prefer east-central African coffees, notably Ethiopia, Kenya, and (believe it or not) Rwanda.
But I don’t have DP roasting all figured out, or anything even close. So I am looking to learn more from your work here. Thanks Mike!
this is so amazing! can anyone help me figure out how to use PID for charging but have it automatically go off (back on manual burner) when i hit charge, like in this video 😋
Hi Dion. thanks for subscribing to my channel. Yes, click on the "Control" button in the upper right of artisan. A box will pop up. set the mode to manual. So, when you charge, it will go into the manual mode.
One you do that, you can then do your prewarm the normal way by setting your SV, turning on the fan and drum speed, and then click "start heating". The roaster will warm up to and hold that SV prewarming temp. Then, when it comes time to charge, you will need to set your SV and your power level immediately after that.
what is the diference between reaching to light roast in 8 min or in 12 min, what i mean is what happens when you prolong the time of roast with lower temperatures ?
Hi Juan, the answer will be different based on the type of roaster you are using. Assuming it is a drum roaster like the Kaleido M2, the answer is everything. Think of this this way, since the roast is 8 minute roast is 4 minutes shorter than the 12 minutes, which means the coffee will spend less time in the middle phase (Maillard/Browning) and less time in the development phase. That will affect the taste of the coffee. The longer roast will be less dynamic, kind of flat, and boring tasting compared to the short roast. I didn't quite understand the "lower temperature" part of your question but assuming the temps are the same this is what you can expect to happen. Does that make sense? Let me know if you want to re-phrase your question and I will try and clarify. If so, please share what roaster you are using.
Regarding the impact of roast times on the profile, I will be explaining this in more detail in the next "profile series" video i do. Maybe in another week or so.
Which kind adapter do you use for exhaust to standard 3 or 4 inch vent pipe?
Hi Josh. For the M2,. I purchased a dust collector reducer adapter from Grainger. Here is the link:
www.grainger.com/product/JET-Dust-Collector-Reducer-Sleeve-48RJ23
I had to cut some fins to expand the small end to allow it to slide over the Kaleido exhaust tube. I used a 2 inch radiator clamp to hold it in place. The larger side which attaches to the flexible vent is 3" and works perfectly with the 3" flexible vent.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks a lot!
Have you tried any home built roasters?
Hi Steve. Not yet. My time has been limited BUT as we talked about last time, I really want to try this. What do you think is the best way to start? Would you mind making a couple of suggestions. I’m not super electrically inclined.
Great video. Really enjoy the content you put out.
I'm wondering how you determined your target end temperature? I've got an M10 and trying to get good light to medium light roasts but really struggling with figuring out a good drop temp when I start roasting a new bean. My 1C typically starts around 193C on my old version (non-sealed) m10. I've been shooting for around 204C for my drop temp for a light roast (seems to be when 1C is tailing off). However Im consistently getting underdeveloped flavors with roast characteristic as well.
Hi Matt, thanks for watching and for sharing your experience with your roaster. To answer your question, I've been really paying attention to color and how it relates to the end temperature for the past couple of years. I have been saving beans from some pretty exceptional roasts and comparing color. In the end I have it pretty zero-ed in within a couple of degrees. These would be for pretty dense beans by the way. So, to answer your question, when I roast a new coffee i guess an end temperature and then I aim for that. I watch my color and then at the end, when I taste the coffee and smell the grounds, i consider the color and the temperature. In the case of this Ethiopian, My 193 might have been a little too light so I think between 195-197c is where I would want to be. I kind of lucked out but now I have a bean color, end temp and profile for this coffee that i can replicate :-)
By the way, don't compare end temperatures between your roaster and others. They will not be the same. Checkout my "color is king" video as that might offer some additional info for you. Hope my comments were helpful.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab thanks for the reply. Makes total since. Another question that has been bothering me. I see your 1C was around 191C and you dropped at 197C, for only a rise of 6C from 1C to drop. Is there a "general standard" for how much BT increase to expect for a particular roast level? I realize the actual end temp will be different from roaster to roaster but what about a trend for delta T between 1C and drop for a particular roast level. Yours was 6C but that seems like quite a low increase just based on some things I've seen online (for instance the Captains Coffee roast primer shows a temp increase of about 9C from 1C to the very beginning of a city (light roast). Is this delta T also roaster dependent? I feel like if I had only a 6C increase in temp I would definitely have grassy coffee (or perhaps the time from 1C to drop is more important???)
Oh boy, your asking a question that I asked to myself a while back AND is has changed my thinking about development. I think the best short answer is for me to say.... give it a try. I apologize for my rambling in advance. I hope this makes sense.
I do want you to experiment with this but let me explain a little more. Consider the ROR you are at when you hit first crack. Let's say your ROR is 15c at first crack. You might be thinking.... "ok, I've got 1 minute and 45 seconds in development and then I will drop the coffee." OR you might be thinking "ok, now I watch Artisan and let the development percentage click away until it hits 20% and then I will drop the coffee." Now, back to the first sentence here in my reply. I've been thinking about this whole topic for some time and realize that setting up my roast for success isn't just the dry phase but each of the milestone events. So how do I set up for success for first crack?. Idealy I have found that my ROR at first crack is a very important milestone during my roast. If too high, I have a darker roast/higher temperature than i want AND a shorter development time. If too low, I risk baked coffee. So, finding that perfect ROR at first crack changed my perception of reaching first crack and how it will affect my development outcome (percentage, time, color, and temperature. I would encourage you to experiment. This topic could help you gain more control over your roaster. It sure did for me. I'm not perfect and I mess up plenty of roasts but i have had more "golden" roasts with a slightly lower ROR through development because of what we just discussed. I would encourage you to experiment with this and let me know what happens. I call these lower ROR numbers during development the fun zone 🙂
Thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely ready to try this. I haven't had that "golden" cup yet with light roast (have with medium roasts), but look forward experimenting with your suggestions.
Keep up the great content. Your channel is always my go to for roast related content 👍🏻
Hi Mike, Really helpful video for Ethiopian Honey. I just purchased the M6 from Joe and Barrett and have ruined my share of beans by roasting too hot and fast so your video is extremely helpful. That’s what it’s about in learning. I’m amazed at how different this roaster is versus my Freshroast SR800. Bigger learning curve for sure.
Hey could you share what connection or spaced connection you are using and where you got it at the exhaust please???
I fixed my original problem of having an in-line fan solid connection for my long run of ductwork which was pulling too much air out of the roaster and keeping me from hitting FC.
Hi Jeff, yes, the M2 is much different than the fresh roast. We learn from our mistakes don’t we. I sure do.
The adapter I use for the M2 is from Grainger:
www.grainger.com/product/JET-Dust-Collector-Reducer-Sleeve-48RJ23
How will need to cut some fins on the the 1” side of the adapter so they flare open a little bit, allowing the adapter to slide over the kaieido exhaust tube. Do not cut the Kaleido tube. I use a radiant camp to hold the air collector onto the Kaleido tube.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you Mike! Incidentally with my just purchased M6 dual I originally connected my long 20 foot of ductwork with S4 inline fan set on only 30% power but was pulling too much heat out of the roaster with Air @40 whereby I couldn’t reach FC and it stalled. I disconnected to create a gap and all is well now if that makes sense. So I’ll take a look at your connector if it’ll not pull to much heat out. The Air fan is just not powerful enough to push smoke out into the next room where it exits outside.
Hey have you successfully roasted any other beans with the M2? Not sure how long Espresso Outlet folks will let you keep it. That’s where I got mine too.
Thanks again and I really like what you said about roasting with these Kaleido’s by the event! So much to learn now. Any advice on roasting other beans is appreciated (eg Kenyan City/City+, Panama City+, Columbians Full City).
I've roasted a lot of coffee with the M2. I'm probably going to talk with Barrett and Joe to see if I can keep it. They have been really cool about letting me hold on to it this long.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I thought I saw a M6 or M10 also in your latest Profile video? M2 and M6 are right sized for the home roaster for sure. I roasted some Ethiopian Shantawene Org Natural by following your Ethiopian video by logging events manually from screenshots since I only have the tablet at the moment. A 300 and 400g batch on my M6. Tracked pretty good but got a little away from me at the end. Dropped 200c and 195c respectively. Setting up now to taste in 3-4 days. Definitely tell the difference in color being medium and medium light.
I have the M2 and the M10 in the background. Temperatures will be different for the M6 using that profile. I'm still working through the M10, trying to understand it's performance capabilities. I had a very successful roast last week with 800 grams. My charge temperature was 20 degrees higher than my 400 gram batch I started with. The batch size really makes a difference. The larger roaster capacity really helps me save time each week. I have to roast about 1.75 lbs every week for our church cafe as well as other special projects BUT it roasts 400 grams great all day long. It is a pretty versatile machine. I really like the M2. I think that is perfect for most home roasters.
Yea, I love a 192-193 drop on the ethiopian naturals with the M2. It give me a nice color and a great balance of acidity and development. Usually end around a 12.8% moisture loss for that type of roast.
Hi mike, how are you? thanks for these videos they are very helpful and I have a great time watching you enjoy the seeds of your labour :D Anyways, I was just curious and I don't think I heard you mention this, but isn't your charge temp a bit low? I understand this kaleido roaster brings heat up very quickly, and that you are roasting a natural, but that shocked me and I wanted to know if there was something else to it. Maybe I have some charge temperatures that are a bit high and should reconsider, but 200°C to 205°C is what I've been seeing.
Thanks again for the video!
cheers,
Francisco from Argentina
Hello Francisco, thanks for watching. Are you roasting with a Kaleido? One thing I have learned about watching other roasting videos is.... it is confusing. I'm sure my temperatures look different than someone elses. Maybe even your temperatures. Even with the same coffee roaster, you and i can have different temperatures displayed because of things like how far the probe is pushed in. I have personally found this the case for Kaleido roasters. My temps are 30 degrees different than another home roaster I was talking with just this past week.
So, don't focus on my temperatures as much as the event times. Watch how long it takes me, or someone to get from charge to dry end..... or Dry end to first crack....
Batch size is another variable that can require different charge temps. Roaster size, 400 gram compared to 1 kilo roasters will use different charge temperatures.
That was my short answer. I will be glad to clarify is you have to dig a little deeper. If I didn't understand your question properly please let me know.
Thanks for asking a great question.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hi again! Sorry for the late response, university is draining all my time and energy, maybe I need a higher summer charge temp so that I can roast along the semester with ease😁 I understand now, and I've been studying your videos, and I now see a trend on your roasting style which I find appealing. As soon as I get my hands on the roaster I'm buying, I'll try to match all this data. I'm taking a degree in electronical engineering, but I was in physics for a few years, and I can say there are a lot of people trying to argue the reason for their decisions with some false statements so it is difficult to find quality information about roasting without getting confused. I'm interested in the soaking beans style and in knowing how to aproach different humidity % beans, density, bean size, process, etc. But it's hard to reach for good info. Do you have any links for these topics?
Thanks for the response and the good vibes:) cheers!
Hello Francisco. I don't think you confirmed with me the type of roaster you plan to purchase. That decision directs the conversation. How we apply heat, soak, charge temperatures, all of that is foremost dependent on the equipment we use. The roast profile is limited by the machine and then the beans, process etc..
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hi, so I am buying a drum roaster, 2kg batch size, inox steel single wall with dispersion matrix so that heat isn't applied directly to the metal of the drum. It has two probes, ET and BT, a big controllable air extractor, controllable RPM, gas fueled. I don't recall you need any further information, but feel free to ask.
Thanks for sharing. Yea, a soak could be a nice option based on how you approach the charge temperature and your air. I'm also not sure how much metal you have (heat sink) so this too could be a factor when it comes to a soak for the first 30 seconds or so. I like the sound of the dispersion matrix.
With regards to the Kaleido, it's power source are IR heating elements. So the elements are heating objects, not necessarily the air. The air is heated through a design element in the roaster where air is drawn in between to layers of hot metal and blown out into the roasting chamber. This is really interesting and promotes convective heat transfer. It is a great design. But, the design of the roaster doesn't really lend itself to use a "soak" period for the dry phase. There isn't enough hot metal to support this. Now, on my Mill City 500 gram, I used the soak all the time.
Where does a beginner go to learn about developing a profile for a bean, and how beans react in the different phases of a roast. In this video, you knew what you wanted to achieve but that’s through a ton of experience. I’d like to get more theory to study this stuff.
Hi TJ - My playlist "Home Coffee Roasting Essentials" includes some of the theory. th-cam.com/play/PLe757VIiQrPYFTUF1g87lkkEymjQ40wMK.html
Particularly the first 4 videos:
3 Tips for new home coffee roasters
Why the dry phase is so important
How to roast sweet flavorful coffee
Coffee Roasting Development phase
I also try an incorporate some theory in all of my videos, including when I roast coffee. I also have another playlist "secret sauce of roasting coffee" starts from the beginning of roasting with a hot air popper and leads to a drum roaster. These videos highlight theory and add various elements related to temperature over time. Controlling heat over the timeline is where the beginner ends and the coffee crafting begins. Now that we can control our roasts, we can craft them using different profiles.
Both of these playlists as well as many of my other videos will talk about my roasting approach. I try and share why and how as I go along. Another good source for theory would be the "Roasting School" videos from Mill City. I cut my teeth on many of their videos.
Can you do a video on roasting using the kaleido tablet
Currently this video is the only roast using the tablet. This is a really important video for any home coffee roaster just getting into roasting. It is a part of my “secret sauce” playlist. There is a lot of great info covered here including charge temps and all of the major coffee roasting events.
The tablet is displayed in full screen during parts of the roast . What info are you interested to see related to the tablet? Let me know and I will see how I can incorporate this in a future video.
@VirtualCoffeeLab I meant the kaleido software for the roasting, instead of artisan. I saw you did use it in the temperature video, but was wondering if you could do a roast video using it and waking through how to use their software. Your videos are great though. I'm going through them to get myself up to speed as much as I can
Gotcha. Sure. I will have some future videos using the tablet for an entire roast. Thanks.
I want to learn to roast and provide my church folk with coffee om sundays
Hello Joro, that is a great ambition. I roast about 1 kilo a week to serve at our church cafe. It is very rewarding to see people enjoy the coffee I roast. One thing I learned is I am roasting coffee for others, not myself. So, the profile I use is something i know everyone will enjoy. Picking the right coffee to roast is important. I roast a Guatemala Huehuetenango bean that seems to work really great. It has the sweetness I want and the chocolatey notes others enjoy. A PNG coffee (you commented on a year ago) would be really fun to serve but there is that jungle/hemp/wet leaves kind of note that some might not like. A Colombian coffee would be a good option as well.
The roasting is half the challenge. The other is using the right brewing equipment. We have a commercial Bunn brewer at church and it does a decent job. It is really important to make sure the equipment is cleaned regularly to prevent dirty, bitter notes.
What type of roaster are you using again?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks I am going to try the Guatemala Huehuetenango, my go-to has been Nicaragua Jinotega.
Isn't the goal to have a smoother ROR decline vs. the ups and downs?
Hi Thomas, Yes, for me, a goal in my roast is to have a steadily declining ROR in general. You might be referring to the rolling you see on this roast. Depending on the settings of the logging software, probe thickness, and the angle of descent of the ROR, it is common to see these types of rolling lines. In the case of my Ethiopian Natural Roast, you can see the ROR that clearly trends downward with the rolling. It has always done that for me. There are times in this roast when you see these wobbles and I am making no adjustments to my heat or air.
But, in regards to declining ROR, I have personally seen the ups and downs on many roasts done by professionals. I think it is very common to see this. It is mostly the way the probe is reading the temps.
Here is a good example of someone following Scott Rao's roasting theory and consulting with Scott. www.reddit.com/r/roasting/comments/dcbviy/roasting_dark_following_raos_declining_ror_past/
looking at the graph you will see the ups and downs that appear on the graph as well as the flick at first crack.
Is this what you are referring to Thomas?
Personally, I think the downward trend of the ROR has helped me roast better coffee and is a good thing :-)
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks - yes, that's what I meant. I am trying to get a smooth ROR decline on my M10 and while the trend down overall looks fine, and I end up below an ROR of 5 when dropping, I pretty much always have these steps in there. I'll blame the probe ;-)
I just got my M10 a couple of months ago. Are you using C or F for your temps? I usually get a pretty low ROR at the end. Depending on my roast profile I can be as low as 2 in the last minute.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I use Fahrenheit and depending on the development percentage targeted, I sometimes get to an ror of 2 or below as well.
Yea, depending on the roast I've experienced that as well. I am new to roasting larger batches like 1k. Most of my roasting has been 500 grams or less. The larger mass of coffee requires higher charge temps, more power upfront but then later on much less heat.... moreso than the smaller capacity roasters. At least that has been my experience.
What is your charge temp, drop temp, and total roast time for your medium/dark roasted coffee Thomas?
197C is 387F. It's wild to me that your first crack and drop are finishing at the typical first crack temperature of coffee, which is around 196.5C or 386F.
I guess the question that undergirds this observation is: Do you find your BT probes are running 10-12 degrees C hot? Do your drop temps typically line up with the roast color associated with them?
Great observation and an interesting topic. The differences you notice from one roaster to another have to do with probe placement, thickness and some other variables. For example, I had to adjust my BT temp on the Mill City 500 gram roaster I have. It was off almost 50f degrees I did this using an offset inside artisan. Even comparing the same roaster there will be differences. It could be a variety of reasons why they are different including how far the probe is pushed into the roaster.
With regards to charge, dry, first crack, and drop, I have found that even using the same machine, i can manipulate the ending temperature by how much momentum I have in my roaster. If I'm building up energy with my power at say 80%, my ET will most likely be increasing. If I stay on the power and the roast fly's through first crack, I have seen the drop temperature be higher than what the bean color looks like. I think the probe is influenced by the energy rate (80%) compared to a lower energy rate of say 45% or 20%. You may even notice your temps being different at other events like dry or first crack compared to how they usually are if you are really pushing the power.
I have found that when comparing graphs and temps with others or from machine to machine, we can't rely on temperatures. They are good for trends but the real data is found in event times, bean color, and moisture loss. I can rely on that data and be pretty confident but temperature readings not so much. What do you think?
Thanks for watching and sharing your comment.
351g water or 315g water?
Hi Dennis. 350 grams of water